The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Succession’ Season 3, Episode 7, With Lorene Scafaria

Episode Date: December 1, 2021

Sean and Joanna get in their birthday best and discuss Episode 7 of ‘Succession,’ “Too Much Birthday.” They break down what they believe may be the saddest episode of the series and walk down the compliment tunnel to discuss Logan’s sad birthday bash. Later Joanna is joined by episode director Lorene Scafaria to talk about Shiv’s dancing, Logan’s emotional state, and more (65:09). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Joanna Robinson Guest: Lorene Scafaria Producer: Steve Ahlman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Watch is the latest and the greatest in pop culture from best friends Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald. Join them as they discuss TV, movies, music, and much more. Check out The Watch on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. This episode is brought to you by Sweet Green. The day doesn't ask for permission. Lunch window? Gone before you saw it coming. You deserve a break that actually satisfies. Sweet Green's new wraps have got you.

Real ingredients? Zero shortcuts. Everything you love in one hand. Think Green Goddess Chicken. garlic aoli, crumbled bacon, corn salsa, 40 grams of protein, made to keep up with whatever comes next. New sweetgreen wraps hit different. Order now at order.com. I'm Sean Fennessey, and this is the Prestige TV podcast, and shit is about to pop off. Today we are discussing Succession Season 3, Episode 7, Too Much Birthday, which is written by Tony Roche and Georgia Pritchett, and directed by the great Laureate Ska Faria. I'm joined today by Joanna Robinson. What's up, Joanna?

I am obviously sporting my over $6,000 Gucci bomber jacket with the UFO on the back. I'm ready to party. Let's party. Did you talk to somebody this week on the podcast? I did. A director you might have heard of, Lorraine Scafaria, a wonderful, wonderful, talented film director who guest directed this episode. So we talked all about it. We talked about it all about it.

We talked about it all. It's all here for you at the end of this podcast. So stay tuned after Sean and I have a natter to hear what Lorraine has to say about that. Looking forward to hearing that because Lorene knows a little something about filming actresses dancing, something she experienced on the film Hustlers, which people may have enjoyed. Yeah. Can I just tell you really quickly? I can't remember this state in the edit of the interview, but I had like a religious experience watching Hustlers. The moment that J-Lo's heels clacked on the stage on either side or do you know the moment I'm,

talking about. I do. I like gasped. I saw God. Anyway, Hustler's an incredible film. This is an incredible episode. Truly an incredible episode. We've been talking on this show a little bit about how I'm 39 pushing 40. And there's another person pushing 40 on this show. His name's Kendall Roy. And he sought to throw a massive celebration of his 40th birthday in this episode. And this was frankly, I would say the saddest episode I can recall of this show. There was something so crushing about everything that everyone did here in a way that I wanted to start by asking you if you felt like it was too much to bear because this is this episode was widely celebrated very quickly you and I got a chance to see it ahead of time I knew in my heart of hearts oh this is

really this is one this is one we're going to remember but it left us feeling low what it is it possible that succession can go too low do you remember when you asked me like when I when I sort of greedily devoured all this greener episodes at the end of the season you you didn't want to know any spoilers, but you're like, what's the vibe, right? And the phrase I used, and I think I mentioned it again on this podcast, was Cocaine Hangover, and I didn't realize that, like, how much of that was sourced out of this specific episode. And, like, specifically probably Tom at the end of this episode, like, that's how it all feels. I was like, oh, that wasn't very creative, Joanna, you just stole that from the last episode. But I do feel like it casts appall over our enjoyment and over everything.

There's a lot to love and enjoy and laugh about in this episode. But it feels terrible this episode. I think especially what happens with Roman, who's the character that we're used to sort of putting a lot of our sympathies into his bucket. So when it gets really nasty with Roman, like, that's hard. And that's something that the show does over and over again is make us a fool for caring about any of these characters. So I was thinking about that. I was thinking about talking to you about this yesterday, and I was like, I think what's true is that this was a really hard season for me to watch up until this point. I haven't seen anymore alone. But it's much better watching it with, I was bummed out a lot watching the season alone. And watching it with all of our listeners, talking about it with you, talking about it with our producer Steve, like all of that helps me enjoy it more. But it's not one I would recommend like having a binge by yourself over a weekend or something like that.

know what I mean? I do. You know, you reminded me of a time well before the coronavirus was in our lives when I would go to friends' homes or they would come to my home and we would watch the Sunday night HBO show together. You know, I watched many episodes of Game of Thrones with Friends. And there was a communal and convivial approach to that. This, if we were not still in the midst of a pandemic, this would have been an interesting series to watch with Friends because obviously we're invested in the characters and the storyline and all the component parts. But as you say, It's a, it's tough, it's bleak. This episode ended in bleak fashion.

You know what it had me thinking about too was the more power that any particular character has at any given point in the episode, usually the worst their behavior. And the better that they're feeling about their station in life, the worse we're feeling about them. And I don't know if that's necessarily a specific move that the writers of the show are trying to make, but it's pretty clear. And Roman, more than anybody at the end of this episode made it clear that, he feels he has accomplished as much as he needs to

to surge ahead of his siblings in the race for power and because of that he is just he seems like a disgusting person just awful like in a way that is sort of beyond I think the traditional succession and the writers and the other actors and the audience is meant to feel that very specifically so I guess like is the ultimate message of this show that seeking this kind of power is a gross act that's I mean this goes back to the question I was asking last week which I think is a

one to revisit here, which is like, what does winning mean? When you win this game, you know, as Roman feels like he's winning right now. I hesitate to say anyone's winning at any given point because other than Logan, because he's just constantly ready to pull the rug out from anyone, you know, but like, it's definitely true that Roman feels like he's winning in this episode. And what kind of life is that? Walking home alone, like, marinating and the like toxic juices that you spewed at your nearest and dearest, you know, like, what is that life? And, It's interesting to think about Roman. I was poking through the Reddit conversations around this and people with a much more forensic memory of the show than me were just pointing out that in the pilot episode, right? Roman does that really disgusting thing where he offers a kid a million dollars if he makes a hit, right, or makes a home run or something like that, right?

And then tears it up in front of the kid and his family. And then, you know, we talk about how the characters changed from the pilot and Shiv changed, all that stuff. And I think we often forget that that's where Romans started. But like that behavior threads through to here in a major way. Like this was always

a potential for this character anytime he feels like he's on the top of something. He's going to punch down. Yeah. I feel like the concept of winning makes sense if you think of it in the same way that Hannibal or Attila the Hun would win. You know?

They would win but at what cost to their humanity and to all of those around them. And the elephants. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Let's take it from the top with this one, because a lot happened and nothing happened, as is so often the case on this show. It basically was, once again, another kind of bottle slash field trip episode in which most of the action takes place at this party. Not all of it, but we see the sort of preparation in the early stages. We'll start with Kendall. Film opens, or excuse me, episode opens.

Felt quite filmic, though, with a searing performance, Billy Joel's honesty. as a Long Island boy, I must say, very tough to watch Kendall, Roy celebrate all of the things that are meaningful to me, among them Billy Joel and hip hop of a certain vintage and perhaps a varsity jacket that once upon a time I could have been seen sporting when I was living back in New York City. So what did you think of the opening stages of Kendall preparing himself and those around him for his party? Later, when we're not recording, I'm going to ask you what the most expensive goosy jacket you own is. Well, you have this moment at the beginning where you're like, are they going to try to do like top or somehow do L to the OG again or something like that? But there's a cardinal rule, and you know this in film and television. If you see the dress rehearsal of something, you're never going to see the actual performance.

So showing us the rehearsal means it can't surprise and delight us later when Kendall sings Billy Joel. Though I wish we had seen the rehearsal of Tiny Wu-Tang, like we deserve that at least. obviously. We were robbed of that. Brutal. Brutal, awful. Yeah, I mean, it's, well, it brings me to a bigger question I have for this episode that I want to ask you about that opening. I mean, maybe it's better save for the end, but the Naomi of it all.

This is obviously Naomi's sort of biggest episode. We talked all season about her as this like background almost accessory to Ken. Is she a real character? Is she not? I think this episode makes more of a case or her being a real character than some sort of piece of arm candy but I don't know

and she's pushing back on him a little bit at the beginning or being supportive at the same time like I don't know how did all the Naomi stuff sit with you or should we save it? I don't know. No, no I think that's a good question because she's so warm towards him in those opening scenes but also you can't tell if there is sort of an archness

to that warmth and then I think by the end of the episode you realize that it was true, you know, that there was like a depth of feeling and that she doesn't necessarily know how to be a great partner, but she wants to be. She aspires to be. I've been thinking about this a little bit because I just watched, you know, the Great Beatles eight-hour documentary series and thinking about sort of dispelling some of the notions about what was going on between Lennon and Yoko at that time and how Yoko clearly was this security blanket in many ways for John as he was going through kind of some of his own troubles and that, you know, that the way that she had been kind of historically mischaracterized in some respects.

And I feel like maybe we've mischaracterized Naomi in some respects. Or the writers didn't want us to know how to feel about her for a while. And by the end of this episode, you see whether they stay together forever and are meant to be together, who the hell knows. But she really did ultimately want to just go home with him and be with him and take care of him. She didn't care about the show. And I think she loved that he had this kind of bravado at the opening of the episode and wanted to perform in this way.

And she's tickled by him, you know, in a way that you can only be tickled by the person that you're truly in love with. Yeah. And is in a position to sympathize with him, given her status and her own family. Do you know what you mean? More than other people would. And I mean, the reserves of patience that certain people have for Ken, like the fact that Rava showed up at all to this party is wild. If I were Rava, I would have nothing to do with Kendall ever. Are you sure she didn't just want to show off her, her man, Candy?

Well, I feel like we should have seen him if that were the. case, you know, maybe best left of the imagination. What do you think, what you think Gary looked like? Tall, very tall. Very tall. That's what I, no question. That's what I would say. Like six, eight. Yeah, like really tall.

Yeah, like he played power forward at Purdue or something. Exactly. Exactly right. And probably had great socks. But I just think that what the show is showing us sometimes are these avenues of connection and comfort that the Roy kids are sometimes or almost. always incapable of grabbing onto because the only thing they really want is like, you know, dad's approval, which they won't get. You know, it makes me think of all the Connor stuff in

this episode is really interesting because this is the second time we've gotten this anecdote about Connor being like a father figure to these boys when they were little. I don't know how he was with Schiff, but like, you know, early in the season, we get this memory that Roman has of going fishing with Connor. And in this one, you know, Connor took them camping. And I guess shit his bag. But, I mean, the point is he took them camping when dad wouldn't. I don't know if it was one trip or many that Connor took them on. But, like, there is a version of this family where the kids just treat Connor as their dad and, you know, stop worrying about chasing Logan.

A more mentally healthy, like, family for them, I think. Yeah. I think Alan Ruck also has this avuncular sensibility at this point, too, that, and he feels like kind of more goofy uncle than he does old. brother. They're not afraid of him. They, in fact, they, they, they sort of mock him to his face more so even than their other siblings. My favorite, my favorite succession insult, actually, is, I think it's Shiv calls Connor the first pancake. Conor Roy, the first pancake. Amazing. It's brutal. Let's, let's pivot back because, you know, the episode for the rest of the Roy clan sort of opens with Shiva and Roman discussing Gojo and the acquisition, and

And then, you know, sort of Tom encouraging them to unite together to make this acquisition happen. Then they step into Logan's office and the team is all assembled there. And as they're assembled, it becomes clear that DOJ is apparently backing off of Waystar. And this thing that we had been working through for six episodes or so, this looming, I don't know, pendulum of some kind that was ready to slash their throats, apparently it's gone. and they're just going to pay a fine? Do you believe that? There's a couple. I feel conflicted about it. And I'm really curious to hear how you feel about it. But there's a version of this story where that's the reality,

that things don't touch people like this. And so the fact that this just poof vanishes, like the idea that they're not doing COVID on the show at all, is sort of reflective of a reality. At the same time, narratively, is it satisfying to have Chase this for six episodes, the Tom stuff, especially for the last few episodes, And then to have it vanish like that, there's a couple options. One of the things we talked about last week is this idea that, like, Tom is already in prison,

which I think is sort of borne out by the end of this episode. Or Tom is definitely going to jail if in episode seven of a nine episode season, they say he's not. Do you know what I mean? What do you think? That's a very, the latter is very intriguing. I hadn't considered that, but it's akin to the rehearsal point that you just made about Ken singing in the early stages of the episode, which is if they tell us it ain't happening, that means it's probably happening. I don't know because I don't, I'm not totally convinced that Tom is still in big trouble,

in part because I think what this episode goes to great pains to show us is that it doesn't matter that he's not going to prison. He's still miserable. You know, he still can't get the attention and affections of his wife. He still can't rationalize his feelings with Greg. He still can't feel a sense of professional security or, you know, approach the ambition that he has as a person. And so that kind of bottomed out feeling that Tom has by the end of this episode, I think, signifies that it wasn't the prison that he was afraid of. It's the prison that he's already in that we've been talking about through this season. Yeah. And that, you know, tour to force office celebration.

I mean, who does he go to immediately, obviously when he gets his news, Greg, calling him the Waystar 2, one of my favorite things that has ever happened on the show. Brilliant. And then Matthew McFadden. And again, like, it'll be better to listen to. Lorraine tell you guys about how that all went. But watching him flip that desk, jump on that filing cabinet, pound his chest like King Kong, all that sort of stuff. But it's like a violent, it doesn't really feel like a truly jubilant celebration. There's like a lot of rage in him.

Maybe that he was ever put in that position or that it doesn't feel better than it does or whatever it is. It's just, yeah, it's tough stuff for Tom. He's a scocher for a little bit, buddy? Thank you, Greg. What? What is going on? Are you okay? Apologies, Greg.

I may have gotten a little tired away. That was the Emmy real moment, though, from McKeon. I think that he, that was the, you know, the network, Howard Beale speech moment where if they're going to show us something on the telecast, it might be that flipping the table over moment. It's so funny that you talk about network because I'm so. Please forgive me. Was the name of the actors who was supporting actress in that film? Beatrice Strait. Yeah.

Who won for a tiny amount of screen time famously. But an incredible scene that she has in that film. And that, to me, is always the best example of that's for the Oscar reel right there. Yes. She has one of my favorite line readings in movie history. I believe she says something to be effective. I'm your wife, God damn it. And I have value.

And, you know, Chayevsky, my favorite, probably my favorite screenwriter of all time. And yes, there is these, like,

these contained monologues that tend to get you into, into award-winning territory. But there was something physical there, too. The leap up onto the file cabinet was,

you know, just that was an action sequence as far as I was concerned. It was explosive. And it was kind of, I agree with you. It was kind of rageful. It was kind of angry.

You know, it was kind of like he hadn't fully worked out all the demons that are attendant with the idea of going to prison. Like, even the Logan arm squeeze of,

Like, I'll remember, which in theory is sort of what he was gunning for partially. It doesn't bring him the satisfaction that he's looking for. Yeah, I wanted to ask you about that one because the first time I watched the episode, I did the awful thing that is memed all the time where I turned to my wife and I was like, did you see that? Did you see what Logan did? Because, you know, he said it very quietly. We're watching the baby.

We're making sure. All the little moments can slip by you. And then the second time around, I was like, oh, he doesn't mean that. Logan's not going to take care of him. That's just something that you say. Do you think that he's going to take care of him? I don't think that Logan will hold to any promise he makes to anyone, you know, ever. It's to zoom back to Roman really quickly.

How Roman became who he is, you can tell, you know, he's studying at Jerry's feet this season, right? And at the beginning of the episode, you know, we're still in the waste our offices. Schiff does a thing where she just dismisses, like, actual work that Roman did to prepare for this meeting, you know? And Roman has been doing his homework all season in a way that, like, you know, those of us who decided we wanted to care about Roman, like idiots, are proud of him for. But the other lesson that Jerry gave him is, I forget exactly what she says, but she's like, you need to 24-7 be thinking about how is this an advantage to me? How does this advance my position? And that is what the attitude that Roman is glombing on to. Like compare that to the Roman in season one who like goes to.

and gets Ken from like a meth head's house in the desert. You know what I mean? Like that's the caring brother, Roman. That guy's gone in this episode. And instead we get whatever it is that Jerry has been grooming to be. Jerry, a character we generally like. But like what has her influence wrought here is a question. Well, I think it's also meant to put Roman and Shiv neck and neck with Shiv saving the deal at the shareholders meet.

and then her feeling like she has to clean up everyone's mess and maybe getting a little too full of hot air and we see that a little bit later in the same opening stages of this episode where the whole crew is sort of together because they're awaiting the arrival of Mattson to talk about the potential acquisition of Gojo and Mattson instead sends two cronies and we see that Shiv

kind of just doesn't know how to talk to her dad She doesn't know how to talk to him during the toast either. You know, she's kind of like, she's gotten too puffed up in a very short period of time. And she, for someone who worked as a political operative, she lacks a kind of grace and frankly a kind of ass kissing that you need to do when you're in the face of that kind of power on a frequent basis. I feels like she's going through. And I don't, I'm not sure how old the show character is meant to be. But it's kind of like a little bit of a Saturn return thing that's happening with her where she's like, actually, I'm this. kind of a person now. You know, I'm not, I'm not working at the feet of anyone. I'm a person who is

grabbing my opportunity and it's now making it seem premature and everyone around her is sensing that it's premature. And this episode, it felt like Roman officially realized it is premature. I'm the one who has been ordained. What do you think about the way that they're continuing to position Shiv right now? It's tough because I think I'm more defensive of Shiv than I probably should be. I think because she has been knocked around so much this season, but then also deserves a lot of the knock around that she gets. I really feel for her in this episode, and I feel for the way in which I think you're right.

She's surprisingly awkward. Yes. You know, the flip side of the coin that is Roman, who can make a deal in any bath, give him a bathroom, and a handsome man a button down, he can make a deal. You know what I mean? Like, it doesn't matter. So, again, this is a little.

like my theory of them being a Voltron, like the Roy siblings being a Voltron and each having something that the other is missing. And Shiv does not have what Roman has at all. And I completely agree with that. And there's also, I mean, Roman himself calls it out, but like, there's also something gendered going on there in terms of like the man club sort of prowling around thing that she just is not a part of. I don't know. Like, I think her reaction to Carrie is a similar thing where she's like, this is awful. and Rom's like, it's natural, it's normal, this is fine. You know what I mean? And I think that's always going to be Shiv's lot. She's not self-aware, though. And I think that's hard to watch

how unself-aware she is. Logan also strikes me as a character who is only willing to give one woman in his life at any given time a modicum of power. And right now, that power resides in his personal assistant and not in Jerry and not in Shiv and certainly not in Marsha. We're not seeing any of those people really getting to make decisions. But we're seeing Carrie get a lot of influence in the situation. It's carry time, for sure. Yeah, she weighs in on Madsen, just like she did weigh in

on Jared last week. And also there's a moment where he just gives her a look and she knows exactly what to do. So yeah, it's definitely carries time to shine, I suppose. And I think, you know, the kids, it's surprising the kids aren't more used to this because we have already

seen three cycles of this with Marsha and then with Rea. and now with Carrie, and sometimes Jerry, if there's not, you know, another woman like that in position. And there's a story that Jay Smith Cameron likes to tell about her, like, sort of invented backstory for Jerry, about how, like, she worked at the company when she was really young. And there was maybe something almost with Logan, but never actually with Logan. But that, you know, that is there in their backstory. So, like, it's all a cycle. And this whole thing is cyclical.

Well, we keep watching kids rise and fall, especially the cycle of Ken, you know, which begs the question, like, are they running out of cycle? Like, is that part of how we feel at the end of this episode is like, how many times can we watch Ken rise and fall? Well, I want to come back to that because that's a big topic of conversation, I think, amongst a lot of watchers right now. And I want to tell you about a conversation I had over Thanksgiving about that very subject. But what you just said about Jay Smith Cameron and her perception of the sort of Jerry and Logan Hittes. is so interesting to me because this episode effectively closes with this fight between Roman and Shiv about who fucks dad better. And the thing that Logan does is most of the women in his life that he accedes power to are women he's having sex with. Marcia and Rhea and seemingly

Kerry. And when Roman says, basically, I fuck dad better than you, which is just extraordinary Freudian analysis on Roman's part. Yeah. And Shiv is so repulsed. And it can't even, even by the standards of the siblings fighting with each other on this show, it's sort of like he's gone mad. He's gone full sociopath during that ranting. But also maybe Roman is on to something because Shiv doesn't know how to placate her father

to put herself in a position to succeed. Now, obviously, they're never going to have sex. That's not what I'm implying. But there is something, there is a kind of, there's a verbal intercourse to quote the great Raqwan, that she's not totally capable of. Speaking of Tiny Wu-Tang, that's called bringing it all back together, Joanna. Wow, seamless, seamless.

I loved it. Yeah, no, I think that's a great point. Excellent point. I mean, especially in an episode where everyone enters the party through their mother's vagina. I think that's a great point. This show loves orifices.

That's one thing I can say for sure. That should be the poll quote on the season three box said. The show loves orifices. Sean Fennacy. Congratulations. You've just been born into the world of Kendall Roy.

Okay, Maris of Theater. I mean, I could have consulted, but whatever. Oh, Jesus. So if we've just been born, then, uh... Oh, okay, so I'm asserting myself into my mom's vagina now? Is that what's happening? Cold and inhospitable. She seems to check out.

I am repeatedly entering my own mother. Is that? That's not, right? This is my mom's cooch, so you know. And you're implying that it's massive, so you might want to tighten my mother's vagina. my mother's vagina. Let's talk about the big bash. So they enter through Caroline's sacred vagina, I suppose, which is certainly a choice on Kendall's part.

I presume that there were some high-level party planners who conceived of some of these structures. Have you ever been to a party like this? You've ever been to an over-extended conceptual bash? No. I was trying to think of the weirdest. I thought maybe you might ask me this, and I was trying to think of the weirdest. like Vanity Fair adjacent party that I went to. And I was like there was a party. It was the venue more than anything else. And there was a disco ball and a growing and a live tree. It wasn't thrown by Vanity Fair,

but we were there. And there was a disco ball and like a live tree. And those two aesthetics together were just like too much for me. And then at one point, and this is going to sound like shitty and name dropy and I hope not. But like at one point, Michael B. Jordan was just like standing behind me and just like, because of the press of the crowd, just like had his back to my back. And everyone talking to me was like, mouthing to me, oh my God, Michael B. Jordan. And I was just like, I'm just going to stand here for as long as I can. That was the surrealist party I ever went to. Tell me about yours.

What was yours? I definitely have not been to anything this, not this extravagant. I've been to some extravagant parties in my life, but nothing this overdetermined to have an idea. You know, there are a lot of ideas at play. What was the name of the interactive show that was very popular in New York, circa 2012, 11, 10? I think it was called Sleep No More. But it did have that kind of a sensation too,

where every room you entered, you had a kind of host, and there was an experience that you were meant to understand as a part of telling the story of Kendall Roy. Right, which is why Willa was like, excuse me, this is literally what I do theater. Why didn't you call me? I think they could have used maybe some of Willis, insights, but not all of them. Liking Willa back in the show, it was nice to see her back last

week, you pointed out a few weeks ago that she kind of disappeared from the first half of this season. She was quite terrific in that ferocious moment where Comfrey attempts to give Connor a cashmere sweater and Willa tells her to back the fuck off. But the party itself is really interesting because it felt a little bit like a maze and like Shiv and Roman were trying to get to the cheese, which was Mattson, and Kendall is constantly trying to block them from getting the prize. What do you think about that? Love it.

Love it. You know, Circles of Hell, whatever you want to call us party. I wrote down, so Kendall rattled off the name's Gladwell, Harare, Lovelock, and popcorn as like four people he consulted or, you know, Gladwell has to be Malcolm Gladwell, I suppose, and Malcolm Badwell does have, like, plenty of ideas on design. I was just making sure that I wasn't messing some other glaring, like, obvious in the party world Gladwell. Harari is, you know, like a

woman's fashion retailer. Lovelock, also a women's wear label. Like, these are like, and that fits in so well with Kendall's woke, like, persona that he, that he, and then I couldn't find, I mean, maybe you know better than I do, but popcorn that I could not, Google,

failed me because there's no good CEO on popcorn, SEO on popcorn around. So anyway, Yeah, but I like a maze with the Sarsgaard hunk of cheese at the center of it in a tree house. So, I mean, there's a couple things that happen here. Obviously, the critical juncture of this episode is when Roman confronts his siblings. They have this conversation, which starts out at sort of warm because Kendall is excited that his siblings are there in the first place.

So sad. Very quickly we learn that they are not there to see. him or to celebrate him in any way. In fact, they're just frankly mean to him when he arrives. Not that Kendall necessarily deserves their sympathy. That's a whole other conversation. Though who's here who isn't moment, which we saw in the trailer to the last week's episode, devastating, brutal, your wife, mom and dad, your kids, all them absent. Any actual friends, yeah. But then I think what happens here that is most important is Roman handing Kendall the envelope a little bit later in their exchange outside of the tree house.

and then that leads to Kendall kind of spiraling out. My siblings, they're looking for you now. Maybe I need to find an even more exclusive area than, like a crawl space or something. Yeah, maybe. They're like emissaries from the Grand Old Duke of Old. Dad wants to buy you, so he sent his wing and dildos to schmooze. I shouldn't say anything. The look on my face is commercially sensitive.

But it makes no sense, correct? Amtrak buys Tesla. And if anything, you should buy him. You think? Well, I really appreciate your impartial read. And that takes us to Mattson. The Odin of Coden. The Odin of Coden.

Alexander Scarsgard, long awaited here. Yeah. Delivering, I would say, not the performance I expected, but a performance that I respected. Ooh, what did you expect? Well, he's such a strapping gentleman. Sure. He's such a handsome dude. Robbish datum, yes.

Truly. That's right. I don't know if he's that tall. But, yeah, he's a Scandinavian wonder. And the person that he was given me, in addition to a riff on a series of kind of of sort of antisocial CEO tech types. But the person he reminded me of was his father,

Stell and Scarsgard. He's using his natural accent. He is a little bit more slouched. He had a little bit of the crankiness that you see Scarsguard gives, say, in Goodwill Hunting. And so he wasn't this sort of like vibrant God, you know, he wasn't this Norse God. He was something else. What did you think of Mattson? What do you think of the whole Mattson structure of this episode? As was the case with Turnhaven,

it's so fun to watch these other flavors of rich asshole. You know, like Adrian Brody's comes in and plays one flavor. And I think it was, it was brilliant to have SARS-Guard come in and do this thing, which is like, you want to talk about a sociopath. Like, he feels so emotionally disconnected from everything. And this is just like, you know, it, this is what happens when you have too much of everything and you don't care about anything anymore and you're here

for maybe a little bit of stimulation, but that's, you know, three peas, but that's it. And it's just, I don't know, I think it's brilliant. And I think that Alexander Sarsgaard has done a really good job of, you know, obviously he gets his big break in Hollywood playing

a strapping Viking vampire on True Blood truly a phenomenal performance. I am an unabashed fan of Alexander Starzgard and True Blood. I think he's incredible in a show that was often garbage around him. I enjoyed season one, as I recall.

I checked out around season three. It's smart. But I stayed till the end. But he's also done something, you know, like he'll try things like Legend of Tarzan where he'll stop eating pasta and, you know, become like the most shredded human that ever was. But then I think he has much more success

in other projects he's picked. like The Diary of Teenage Girl he's a tremendous in. He is. Or War on Everyone, which is a very shaggy film. But, like, I thought he was really, really good in that. He's very funny. Like, and so I think he's one of those things like Brad Pitt, where he's so handsome that it would be so easy for him. But I think he's interested in doing something more interesting.

And I think this is a really good venue for him to do that. I love that you called out his dad, who obviously played a, you know, a tremendous on-scromanious. green villain this year and Baron Harconin. So I hadn't thought about that. That's right. I hadn't, I hadn't even put the Baron Harconan aspect to this either. So what about the Madsen character? Like, what do you, what do you make of this guy? What do you think he's really after? Obviously, we see Roman and Mattson broker this quasi-deal. It's not really a deal. It's more of an agreement to keep talking. But what do you think his intentions are? What do you think he makes of this whole circumstance with the Roy's? I think there are indeed. I think there are indeed.

you're being played, honestly. Like, Roman has in the past done a good job of calling out people who are full of bullshit as we saw at the end of season two, as stuff like that, even at the expense of his own glory.

But he might be too high on his own supply at this point to see that, too enamored with his power position. And I think that the fact that Mattson starts with when is your dad going to die?

there feels like there's something a deep anti-Logan, you know, I mean, that might be the most dumb and surface reading. But like, I think most people when they ask, when is your dad going to die, it's about because your company is going to fall apart when he dies. So I need him to be around. But this feels like the opposite to me. I don't know. What do you think? Yes. Shades of Lawrence from the first episode and the idea that Lawrence identified as he was running this sort of vice-esque company that maybe he'd be.

able to ascend to power if Logan was no longer in the picture. Obviously, this is something that Stewie has often thought about as well. Most of the people who have attempted to see themselves sitting down in Logan's throne have been vanquished or have been blocked through this show. Somehow, Mattson seems a little bit bigger. He seems a little bit more not just cutting edge, but theoretically more powerful. I do, I love some of the real world implications of a company with the right tech. meeting a company right there with the right content,

you know, legacy and history meeting this sort of forward-facing algorithm that is going to sync everything together. And in some cases in the real world, that has worked. And in other cases, it does not work as well. I'm not totally sure what the comp here is. I think, like, the Disney Fox merger is obviously on their mind a little bit here.

Maybe more of an AOL-Time Warner merger going back 15 or 20 years. A little quibby, perhaps. Some quibby for sure. It's interesting because Ken says to him, Ken, when he's in full spite, I know why my siblings are here, I've read the letter mode. He suggests to Madsen that he should buy a waystar. And something that Josh said, Josh Aronson said in his episode when, and you know, Ken's right, Gojo was his idea, by the way. But like something that Josh says is he's like, it's way overvalued, which I just thought was interesting.

So I don't know. I don't know enough about business. I'm too ignorant about business to really know all the potential avenues forward here. But like something, it's not, here's what I feel certain. It's not going to be as easy as Roman thinks it's going to be. And I don't think in the next episode we're going to see Matt said bring Logan a Coke or anything like that. Yeah, completely agree with you. You mentioned Rava.

Let's talk about Rava very quickly because I feel like in addition to the letter that is passed to Kendall. from, from Logan and Roman, we get this moment where we learn that there is a gift from Kendall's children. And that gift goes missing somehow. He never finds the gift.

This gift continues to go missing. Wrapped in a rabbit wrapping paper. Of course. I heard our buddy Chris Ryan say that he was perhaps watching too many serial killer films and thought that maybe there was a dead rabbit inside of the rabbit wrapped wrapping paper. You know what's funny?

So I've only seen the trailer for next week's episode. but Jeremy Strong is sporting a like a shaved head buzz cut in next week's episode. I don't know if that was for like another role he was doing or reflects Kendall's state of mind. I don't know what's going on there. But that means that there's a shot in the trailer for the season of Kendall and his kids where he has the longer hair. And it looks like they're sort of gathered together and looks at. I'm like, was this the rabbit funeral? Like were we deprived a rabbit funeral?

was my first thought about that because it seems like it was a cut scene that we'll never get to see. But if Jesse Aaron started sitting on that, please release the rabbit funeral as an extra. Yeah, it's so, it's devastating. Watching Ken tear through that mountain looking for one drip of meaning

in this awful shit fest of a party that he's thrown for himself. You know, devastating. And of course, tremendous work as ever from Jeremy Strong. What do you think? As a new dad yourself. Well, thanks for saying that because here's what was on my mind as I was watching this scene.

One, it's set to K.R.S. 1.M.C. Act like they don't know. Truly one of my favorite rap songs of all time. This is an episode that features a lot of references to hip-hop with Tiny Wu-Tang. And it's obviously a very difficult conversation between Rava and Kendall. But I thought to myself, and I am once again worryingly identifying with Kendall. But I was like, God, will there be a day when my daughter will be? buy me a birthday present? Is that actually going to happen in my life? We'll melt my frozen heart. Jesus Christ, if I do a good enough job as a dad that I get a gift from my kid, I would be

overwhelmed. That sounds like the most touching thing of all time. So you can understand why Kendall is utterly destroyed by being unable to find something from the only people who probably really and truly care about him, you know, who understand him or at least want to understand him and be close to him because they probably don't know enough yet to know that they need anything from him other than their affection and vice versa. So I thought that it was really touching and crushing. Well, again, and if his kids do care about him, how long is that, sorry to sound like so cynical, but how long is that going to last given the running joke of the season being that Kendall's an absentee father? You know what I mean? Like repeating the sense

of his own father perhaps. And it's, um, like, Again, I think it's underlying this idea that the Roy kids will ignore the potential healthy source of love and support and affection and connection available in their lives just to chase this other toxic thing that they don't have. Yeah, and we also know that children attempt to kill their fathers in this family. So who knows when. So Iverson and what is their daughter's name? Oh, it's Iverson and Sophie is the daughter. Also, that we learn in the same conversation that these kids are being spied on. And Kendall doesn't know this.

And Shiv didn't know it. And that's a constant question this season is where's the line, especially for Shiv. Right? We talked about this last week. Where's the line? And for Shiv, it's like spying on kids. And for Roman, the line is a dot on the horizon for him. I don't know where it is.

You know? And so... Shiv's morality keeps getting in the way of her ability to ascend. That's the other thing. is happening here. Shiv trying to back a Democrat, followed closely by Shiv being genuinely disturbed by the idea of spying on Kendall's children. It certainly seems like Roman will go back and report that to Logan that she doesn't approve of that. And Logan, of course, will continue to dismiss his daughter. I don't want to talk too much about the dance because Lorraine talked about it. However,

I do want to let you know, because I haven't seen it widely reported, but probably someone else wrote about this. That apparently, Lorraine says this dance is based on Sarah Snook's dancing at a party and the writer's seeing that and wanting to, like, write it in. So all of a sudden I'm like a little worried.

Like, is this, like, are all the mean jokes they're making about the way shift dance in the party, like could actually have directed it at the way Sarah Snook gets down at a cast party? I don't know. Well, let me just say this.

One, I would have thought that the inspiration was Elaine Benis on a of the key episode of Seinfeld. Of course. Not enough thumb pointing and kicking, honestly. I want to try to say this in a not weird or crude way. Sarah Snook is my type. My wife is a redhead.

I think she's quite beautiful. And I like that she was just like, fuck it. I'm going for it in this scene. I'm going to dance my ass off freely. And I don't think that, I think because the characters mock it, we feel more comfortable mocking it. But I'm not totally sure that what she was actually.

actually doing, which we see for all of five seconds, frankly, is necessarily like a disastrous performance. The idea of Roman criticizing someone's dancing is kind of laughable. Imagine Kieran Culkin dancing on this show. That would be absurd. I'm going to have to go back and watch the wedding episode because surely we got to see him dance and then I will judge for myself. But you're right. It sounds absurd to think of Roman dancing. You know, on the vein, I'll join you on the Sarah Snook appreciation and say, like, this green dress is incredible look. on Sarah Snuck, one of my favorite all-time dresses in the show, full stop. I thought she looked amazing.

I liked that her executive hair was sort of getting all like touseled and loose and stuff like that. And also, of course, my favorite thing to do the season is to point out, like, who's color matching whom. And it is interesting that Kendall and Schiv are both wearing green with gold accents, gold chains. I saw that you ID that on Twitter. You're getting very good at this, almost scarily good at picking out these dress. codes that they're matching up every week. But like, are they doing it? Is it all in my head?

They must be. No. At this point, I mean, you've found so many at this point. I mean, the costume designer on the show would be an interesting person to speak to. I'm not sure who that is. But there does seem to be a lot of intentionality with all of those choices. Maybe that's going to be my, like, my epic conclusion finale interview is, validate me. Yeah, we couldn't get Jesse Armstrong, but we did get the costume designer.

And frankly, they may know more about the future of the show than Jesse. based on the way that everyone's been suited and booted this year. Absolutely. Wow. I love the phrase suited and booted. Can I, can we on that front? Can we talk about perhaps the one drop of purity in this episode, which is a Hawaiian shirted Greg in pursuit of Comfrey? Was it pure?

I don't know. He's another one. He's like a, he's a horn dog in disguise. He's had eyes for Comfrey since moment one. I think there was a sweetness to the way he was aspiring to ask her out, but what are his intentions. I mean, they're pretty impure, if I have to say so. You know, that's fair. I just think that, like, Dasha is a beautiful woman, but, like, she's not, like, an obvious sort of, I think there's something about, like, the way she is

and the way we constantly see here, which is, like, harried and working makes his pursuit of her seem, but you're probably right. You're probably absolutely right that I should not latch on to anything pure seeming. That being said, I left this in the interview last week with Matthew, but he called this scene out where Nick Braun adopts this weird Southern accent talking to country is his favorite. I knew it was in the next week's episode, but I was just like, let's just leave it in. Because he just loved it. It just tickled him so much.

It is by far my favorite part of this episode. What was the, I want to get the exact line right. A very even-handed maiden. On the kind of you. What does he do? Like, what character is that that he is affecting? I don't know. It's incredible. Like, horny Atticus Finch?

Like, what is he doing? Get that image out of my head right now immediately. They're even handed, maiden. Yes. Great stuff. Yeah, I mean, I obviously I enjoyed that. And Comfrey ultimately agreeing to go on a day with him just to spite Kendall. And, you know, maybe that will mean something meaningful between those two.

But I highly doubt it. I suspect that there's not any long-term fireworks. So you think Greg is going to appear. Caroline's wedding with Comfrey on his arm? I don't know. I agree that they're probably no happily everafter's in succession. And Greg, as we've mentioned, is like, has this genial demeanor but is also a player in his own right.

So maybe I want better for Comfrey. Maybe I want more for her, especially as she has to, like, frantically eBay list hundreds of human lunch boxes or whatever it is that's taking up her apartment. It's a watch. Okay. Wow. Yeah, thanks. I'm like really bad at presents.

I like it. I like it. No, I like it. No, it's fine. It's fine. Thanks. May, is it, can I see? Is it, is it, is it, um, inscribed?

No, it's just a stupid watch, okay? I'll get you something else. Can we, can we pivot back to Naomi and talk about this watch scene? Like, as Kendall's freaking out about the, the possibly remains of a rabbit that he can't find in the stack of presents, uh, Naomi comes through with this gift. And Kendall reacts. I just love the way that he says his whole like, I don't want to be a dick, but what was going through your mind?

Which is just like such a mean, shitty thing to say. Awful. What did this interaction do for you? Well, it had me certainly on the back foot in terms of thinking that there's really ultimately nothing between them. And then that quickly got dispelled, you know, because she really stepped up and put that awful insult behind her

took care of him, took him home, and assuaged him and lay with him in his 18 blanket by the end of the episode. But, you know, obviously, like, Kendall is the boy who has everything. And so the boy who has everything, it's impossible to get anybody a gift. That being said, I'm a person who's not super good at giving gifts. And I felt like a little, a bit of warmth towards Naomi. You know, I'm, I'm, I, it doesn't mean I care any less about the people that I give gifts to. It just means I lack a certain creativity in that department. So I have felt some empathy for her, honestly. Plus, she backed it up with an officer of blowjob. So, you know, she's doing her best. That is a genuine gift. But the real gift is that she like took him home, wrapped him up in a blanket and

sat with him. Yeah, she loves this guy. Can I ask you another question about this party that I didn't prep you for? Oh, boy. So Kendall, well, you're a music guy. Kendall, Kendall's like, what is it? Bangers only? Bangers only playlist. Yeah. They play one of my favorite bangers. of all time, LCD sound system. What is the one song that is a must have on your bangers only play the show?

Oh, wow. We've been asking ourselves some tough questions on this show. I know, I didn't prep you at all for this, so I apologize. Harry Nilsson got into the culture. I mean, I don't know how this happened. Obviously, he was a very successful artist in his time.

He's my favorite singer-songwriter of all time. Is he? Yes, I've written about him quite a bit. Amazing. Somebody I really admire. Actually, we're in this Beatles moment, and there's been all this great celebration of Billy Preston as the fifth beetle. But Harry Nilsson in many ways was kind of unofficially the heir to the Beatles pop song

writing throne as identified by John. So Gotta Get Up was that was my song for years and years of my life. I would play Gotta Get Up and Nilsson-Schimilson, my favorite album, celebrating its 50th anniversary this fall. And then Russian doll makes you feel basic. Is that what happened? Yes, that's what happened. That's what I was going to say.

So I can't, can I not pick Gotta Get Up? I don't know. You can do it. There's like there are some, you know, you don't know by Jay-Z. That's like, that's a, if you put that song on, I will, I will, I will, I will, I will turn into Godzilla. So that would be a good one. What about you? What's, what's your go-to?

I was trying to think there's, there's this incredible playlist that someone I dated once made for me. And like, I think it's the best out, best tape of all time. That LCD sound system, uh, song is on there. Um, but another banger on that is, uh, just Detroit is a skyline. and I think it's either the live or the acoustic version, super chunk. I will just play that on repeat. I think it's an incredible song. So go listen to that.

And if the track you found looking up isn't great, look for a live or acoustic version. It's just, I think it's a banger. Love that. That would go on my list. Great pick. Detroit has a skyline, you said, right? Yeah, Detroit is a skyline. That's a great one.

Yeah. Steve, our producer, listening. Do you have a banger that you would put on your? Oh, my God. And your all bangers playlist. The Captain America theme? Possibly. No, no, no.

If it was the Captain America thing, it would be the Star-Samangled Man with a plan. And Alan Macon joint. Oh, yes. Love me and Alan Macon Jane. No, it would probably be calm like a bomb. Oh, oh, oh, my God. Right against the machine. Steve, you're speaking my language, dude.

You're speaking my language. Are you sucking up to me right now? No. No, that's like one of my absolute favorite. I feel like we should make a prestige TV, a succession, Spotify playlist. Spotify did not pay me to say that. One of the last columns that I wrote on the ringer.com,

it's been a while since I've written a piece. But one of the last ones I wrote was an ode to the Battle of Los Angeles by Rage Against the Machine. So you're really after my heart with that one, Steve. Okay, so what happened here? Roman won, quote unquote, but is a piece of shit and leaves by himself and walks home. Shiv is distraught and unable to engage with her

coaked out husband on the way home from the party. Kendall is wrapped in his 18 blanket and in Naomi's arms. Logan is probably sleeping quietly somewhere atop his throne. And no one's happy. No one's happy. Everyone's alone. Except for Connor and Willa.

It's surprising. Connor. Connor and Willa had sex. They definitely, they went home and they looked each other and they said, we're together and we're happy. I mean, I don't know if Willis happy, but she's happy with her paycheck or whatever it is. She's convincing herself of happiness. She did her job tonight.

Conner, like, Alan Ruck, like the look on Connor's face when she defends him. Oh, we should say really quickly that, of course, as you might have suspected at home, Alan Ruck really did tear his like rotator cuff or something like that. Oh, no. Is that true? Yeah, so they wrote the injury into the show. It's pretty great. It seemed like one of those things to me

Where someone comes in with something And another character goes, So what happened? You know, to you? Why are you on crutches? So do you think that the coat thing was a rationalization Or was it just like a perfect character touch For him injuring himself?

I don't know. I thought the coat thing was, I mean, and it was a really bad coat. It was a bad coat. It was certainly not a Norwegian wool. It certainly was in a coat room At a restaurant in Canada. Yeah, it was just like a grandpa.

I want to talk to you about a big theory that I have cooking. Oh, good. Okay. You talked last week about how you don't like to do death pools or death watch. You're not really good at it. It's not really like your thing or whatever. And so I regret to inform you that that is what I'm going to do right now, which is not make you, not put you on the spot for anything. But to say, you know, the question we've been asking ourselves about like cyclical, you know, and you're going to talk to me about this Thanksgiving.

conversation you had and like whether Succession is running out of gas or spinning its tails, does it need to be building to something huge this season? What is huge? What are big stakes on this show? This isn't really a death of like, you know, a red wedding kind of show, but like, is it something they might do? Okay. So I walked out of this episode a little worried for Kendall Roy based on a few things. Number one, the title of the party is notorious Ken ready to die. That's the name of the party. And then when he has his breakdown in the present room, he says to Naomi, says, I wish I was. And then he pauses. She says what? And then he says home. That is not at all what I feel like he was going to say. And if we were to see a Kendall suicide,

could we at all claim that that wasn't seated seasons ago when he was standing on top of the way start building looking out over the city? Do you know what I mean? Like this seems like it's been hanging around him. I was watching the post-episode interviews with the cast. It's where I found out about Alan Rock's injury. Jeremy Strong said, this episode was the culmination of everything he's ever wanted to do with Kendall Roy. Oh, boy. And it just sounded to me like maybe an actor who was done.

So I have a couple questions here. Jeremy Strong, to me, seems like the kind of performer who would say, I feel like I've done all the thing. Like, the idea of being on a hit HBO show is not enough for someone like Jeremy Strong to want to stay. He won an Emmy. He's glad that he won an Emmy. He's glad to have done it. But maybe he's done everything that he wanted to do with Kendall. And maybe he would want to go.

Another question around this is, can this show be this show without Jeremy Strong and Kendall at the center of it? We've asked this question about Logan. It could this be true of Kendall? But I think in terms of, like, a real cost of something. thing and a real breaking of a cycle, it could be a decision that the show might make. I certainly would energize everything, the fallout of all of that, how that would ripple through everyone in the family, et cetera, how that might impact Logan, all of this sort of stuff. So I don't know. It's something I'm not convinced of it. I'm not calling my shot. It's just something this episode really

planted in my mind. What do you think, Sean? Well, you're blowing my mind. I hadn't thought about this. I believe that Kenne. Randolphoy is the protagonist of this show. Certainly it's an ensemble, but he effectively opens Succession, Season 1, Episode 1. He has been positioned continuously as the Sad Boy icon

at the heart of it. There have been shows that have killed off the main character. It would not be the first time something like that happened. It usually takes a while more than three seasons

for something like that to happen. Like, Because, you know, Thrones is obviously a show that got us really sort of inured to this idea of, like, main characters dying and stuff like that after the first couple of seasons. The Wire, I think, is a better example when you have things like Stringer Bell dying and that feeling, like, impossible until it happens. But The Wire is also a show that radically reinvented itself every season. So I don't know if that's, like, a good cop. I don't know if there's ever been an example quite like this. Like the Ned switcheroo was always a switcheroo, right?

That was a sort of like, that was a choice about trying to say something about the nature of fantasy storytelling. And it was brilliant. And this would be, if this was more informed by Jeremy wanting to go pursue different kinds of stories, or this is where Jesse Armstrong and the team wanted to take the show in a different direction, that would be bold. That would be very bold. I think it would be a little bit sad, obviously, because we've come to really just anticipate whatever it is that Strong is going to do on the show

from week to week. On the other hand, I just saw production photos a couple of weeks ago of Jeremy Strong on the set of one of my most anticipated movies of 2022, which is called Armageddon Time, directed by my friend James Gray, which is a movie that takes place it's sort of like in the orbit of 1980s Donald Trump in Queens that

stars Anne Hathaway, I believe, and I want to say Robert De Niro was in this film as well. And Jeremy Strong is one of the stars of this movie. And so, like, you could certainly see Jeremy Strong pretty ably moving on to a hugely successful kind of like Dustin Hoffman or Philip Seymour-esque career as a movie actor. He's, I mean, you could see, I think, already, like, his performance on the show and the way that he approaches his craft has been such a thing that I do think any filmmaker wants to

work with Jeremy Strong. I don't, like, I don't think he's the kind of guy who would leave a show because movie stardom is calling. I think he's the kind of guy who might leave a show because he's, you know, he's the kind of guy who might leave a show because he wants the creative challenge of inhabiting other characters and not just like, you know, sticking with Kendall. I don't, I like, I don't know. And maybe all of this is for naught and like it's ridiculous to think that they would kill someone like this. But I think it would be really bold and I think it would certainly be a strong answer to everyone asking the question of, like,

is succession circling the same story and the same cycle over and over again? It's a tremendous prompt that and we have not seen further ahead. We're all caught up now with the rest of the world here. So this is just pure speculation. But that does circle to the conversation I had, which was the one that I feel like many people are having right now at Thanksgiving. And I was having some folks who kind of work in the industry kind of sort of, but are not necessarily like TV writers or anything like that, who were sort of shrugging their shoulders a little bit about the narrative momentum of the series. And I didn't say any of this at the dinner table because I was like, I talk about this for one hour every week with Joanna,

so I don't really want to have this conversation right now, honestly. But I, as I've said, a few times now, I don't come to the show for that. I don't think that's really the purpose of the show. I don't think that this is, I think it's a soap opera, but not a drama, if that makes sense. And soap operas kind of have to consistently stay on the rails. And, you know, we was talking to our mutual pal

and your podcast co-host, Malie Rubin, about this. And she very astutely, observed that people don't really change all that much. You know, characters change on shows all the time, and they're learning lessons and developing in exciting ways. But in real life, if we change, we change slowly. And it takes great pains to evolve. And one of the things that I think that this show is very wise about showing us

is that people who have the enormous advantages that these people on this show have are unlikely to evolve. There's not a lot pushing them. towards evolution or resolution. And I like that about the show. I like that the show feels kind of real in that respect, even though the dialogue is so hyper-powered and the staging is so melodramatic.

There is a reality to the awfulness and the kind of like heartlessness of some of the figures in this world. So I overheard that conversation and I just kind of was like, you know, that'd be like being handed at chocolate bar and saying like, ah, but I had a chocolate bar yesterday. You know, it's like, it's chocolate.

Just relax. Like, try to enjoy it. I don't disagree with you. But at the same time, I think maybe it's just the way we've been conditioned to digestory, is that we're conditioned to watch characters in an arc. And, like, to invoke Mallory again, I will say that Mallory and I have a shared favorite type of character that you find in, like, Sawyer on Lost or Jamie Lanister on Thrones, stuff like that, which is, like,

someone who starts somewhere and ends somewhere dramatically different, even though Jamie Leicester does like a backslide at the end of Thrones. But like, you know, a character on the move, a lot of momentum on a character. That, for me, is someone really interesting to watch. And we instead are seeing these kids stuck on a merry-go-go-go-go-round. You know what I mean? And one of them's up and the other one's down and it just sort of like, you know, goes around. I'm just doing the circle game now.

But, like, you know, it's, and I agree. It would be ridiculous to feast on something like succession, which is so smart and so, like, emotionally savage and all these other things and say, eh, I've tasted it already. You know what I mean? I completely agree with you. But I do, I feel that itch. I feel that itch for some sort of big movement of some kind or another. I don't think character death is the only way to do it. And I certainly really don't think that shock and surprise is the best value in a story.

I think a lot of people have come to believe that post-thrones, that you have to shock and surprise and devastate in order to entertain. I don't believe that. But what I do trust is that should the show decide to do this, again, I'm not calling my shot. I'm just saying, should the show decide to do this, I trust that season four would be really interesting. One thing I just want to say, before we wrap this conversation, I think one thing that would be really bold, and they have shown that I don't think that they're willing to do it based on how they were positioned to do it potentially. But one thing that would have been really bold is to have actually told the story of a family like this that fell and to see what life after the fall

would be like. Because if we look at our recent history and we look at the people who have actually fallen, the Harvey Weinsteins of the world, for example, people who are once extraordinarily powerful and their awful criminal deeds led to, you know, prison time, the loss of extraordinary wealth, the destruction of a commercial empire, what then what, now what? I don't know that we've seen that story, you know, and I think at a certain point, the kind of opulence and absurdity that succession is powered by is going to become road. To me, it's not about the story of who's going to take over for Logan that's going to become road. It's going to be the kind of wealth porn slash consistent like engineering for power part that is going to get a little bit dull. And so if

they really wanted to shake shit up, they could have used the crew story to pull it all down, you know, to drag the Roy's down and to have them mired in shame. And maybe that is where the show is going. I do feel like shows like this tend to have extraordinary first three seasons and four can be a turning point for many shows. So I'm just saying if there's like a jolt of something, you know, again, this is a show that I really do think has five seasons in it. So two more seasons after this, I think it would really be interesting. And I think to your point about Luke's Madsen or even like Sandy Jr., played by Hope Davis

and Stewie, is this idea of like foxes in the henhouse, like various. And that's a phrase, I think, that Lawrence Ye used in season. one, you know, like as a fox in the hen house sort of thing. Could there be someone who could topple Logan? It's not going to be his kids, probably. But could it be a Lucas Madsen or, you know, anything that gives me more stewie I'm here for. So, you know, something like that.

I don't know. It's fun to be here with you, not knowing at all what's going to come next. What is coming next, though? Who are you talking to now? Her name's Lorraine Skavaria. She's a brilliant, brilliant director. And she's here to tell us about this episode and how much fun it was to make, which, of course it was.

She got to party with the Royce for several days of filming. So let's go now to my chat with Lorraine Skavaria. Wow. She's really dancing there. Very, very emancipated. I know what she's taken? I don't think she's taken anything. Just getting the demons out.

Hi, Lorene, how are you? Hi, how are you? I'm good. I'm so thrilled to talk to you. I'm such a long-time fan of your film, so I'm delighted. Thank you. I'm curious, when you're brought on to do something like an episode of Succession, how does that process work?

Were you given the option to direct this episode specifically, given your pick of the litter? How did that work? I mean, I put it out there that I wanted to direct an episode. of Succession. I'm just a huge fan of the show. But no, they chose the episode for me. I felt completely spoiled when I found out which episode it was. I think when I spoke to Jesse and Mark for the first time,

they said they wanted me for something particularly cinematic, I believe is the word they used. And yeah, once I saw who was writing the episode, Tony Roche and Georgia Pritchett. They're just the funniest people around. So I couldn't quite believe what I had my hands on. I'm curious, who was your DP on this episode? Chris Knorr.

Yeah. So I've done a lot of listening to Chris and Pat Capone, the two main DPs on the show, talk about their style, you know, because they're on almost every episode. So they're sort of this through line. as directors come and go. Mark obviously directs a lot of episode.

What was it like working with Chris in terms of his input as to what the style should be versus your input on the style? Oh, interesting. Yeah, I mean, I think what's funny about being involved in a season three of anything is it's sort of that period

of a show where it's very exciting, I think, for the crew to flex different muscles, you know, especially when you have a show that has such a concrete, visual language like Succession does. And I think that that's what's very fun about something like this. You get a bottle episode, but you still want to be truthful to what the show is, you know, the rules of the show, basically.

So Chris and I talked a lot about moments that we could stray from that and moments that you want to stay true to it. So there's a natural language with the show that's very handheld. obviously it's really about staying loose and letting the actors be on their feet and kind of just letting them do their best work. But you know, you've got these snap zooms that do a lot to get you in certain characters' heads. And yet, you know, there are an episode like this where you're out in the world with these characters. You kind of just want to be able to flex some different muscles. So we spoke a lot about where we'd get to create kind of a new language for the show.

And so much of that is these beautiful sets that are designed by Stephen Carter. And I think Chris and I, our biggest challenge was really this venue that we were in the shed. So we spoke a lot about lighting. You know, lighting was a real chance on this show to bring something new to it. Chris's some of my favorite episodes of Succession, including Season 1's Bachelor Party episode. So that was always a great touchstone for us just to see what has been done before and find new ways of doing things.

But with this, you know, when it's Kendall's birthday party, I mean, it's really about trying to get into Kendall's mind and think of what it is that he, might have said, you know, even if it was in passing to someone who had to now figure out how to realize Kendall Roy's vision for his own birthday party. So lighting was one of those things where we've got this beautiful, large space. And Kendall, I imagine, would take his cues even from Kanye's St. Pablo tour. So that was something I sort of presented to Chris saying, this feels like a great sort of monochromatic kind of amber lighting in here.

And then, of course, the geniuses that work on the show, Chris and the entire crew then had to realize that. But yeah, Chris was wonderful. We had a lot of fun together. I'm curious when you start the episode and with Kendall singing, some Billy Joel. And of course, like, you know, big fans of Succession are immediately thinking about. about Jeremy's big rap number from season two. How much is that sort of the L to the OG of it all sort of hanging over you doing a musical moment with Jeremy in this episode?

Well, I think what's so fun about this is that, I guess the expectations are a little subverted. You see him, you see him practicing. You see him in sort of this quiet moment, obviously with big goals and dreams and ambitions for what this moment is going to be like on the day for him. But I think that was what was fun about it was to have all of that build up is definitely because you've seen him go out there with L to the OG and you know what he's capable of. But never reaching that was, you know, very fun to see on the page, actually, that he's going to, you know, what's possible, even though he never goes through

with it. You talked about being inside Kendall's head. We obviously end with Kendall and Naomi and this sort of like Pieta shot and the music cuts out. We're very much in Kendall's head space. Like, you know, I think most creatives don't want to try to force the audience to be feeling anything. But I guess maybe, like, what are you feeling about Kenner? by the end of this episode.

My maternal instinct kicks him with Kendall. I genuinely want to give that boy a hug. And, you know, maybe because he seems like the character who there's some ounce of him that could change. And, I mean, he's such a complete character. Obviously, you know, he gains your empathy and ruins it the next second. So obviously is really complicated. But yeah, that ending for me was, that was something that Chris and I spoke a lot about capturing

in this particular way because I, I feel like he's sad. He's pretty tragic as characters go. He is somewhere between Hamlet and Macbeth, but he's closer to Hamlet, you know? So there's something, there's something about him that, Yeah, I was excited to see him in this state. And I think it's a vulnerable episode right away,

even just all the buildup to throwing his party. That's such an intense feeling. I could almost have empathy for anyone that I see trying to throw themselves a birthday party and all the pressures of it, even though, of course, all kinds of assistants and staff actually pulled this off. I think it's like any party, you know, you're inviting all these people to it, but it's really just for two or three people to think it's cool. And so in this particular case, it really is about his siblings.

And I think the ending with Naomi and their relationship together, she's incredible, you know, an incredible character, but a really gifted actor too. And I think their connection is very strong. as characters and as actors. And so, you know, it's a moment to really feel for the kid, I think. And to, but to, you know, be honest, I was also in her head at that moment. It's also a moment where, you know, this guy is lying in your lap and he needs you very specifically.

And, you know, you've kind of gone around the sun in this episode with him. And I don't know. in that moment I was also in her head to be honest. But, you know, scenes like the gift room, you know, getting to that, getting to that kind of vulnerable place with him, I think that was also about something else. You know, it's kind of like he just gets younger as the episode goes on. You know, it's Benjamin Button for Kendall.

He kind of just moves back into the womb by the end. And I think that's the feeling. He certainly has a desire to, you know, just want to be new. I want to be, want to start over, you know. And so I think to see him in that gift room scene is to really see him as, you know, he's a father who's looking for his gift from his children, but actually halfway through it, he's a child trying to look for the gift from his father. You know, he's, he's, it's so complicated. It's so layered and loaded, um, that it's really about, you know, his, his best self is his, is, is his, is his, is his, is his, is his, is his, is his kids, let's say, you know, that's, that's, that's what he, I'm, you know, obviously just projecting a little bit, but, but, but I think that's what he, that's what he sort of is, I think in that moment, it's like, if I can't find this present, I am everything they think about me or everything. someone could say about me. And if I can find it, then I'm saved, you know. And so it's, yeah,

it's really, it's just great writing, isn't it? You mentioned Naomi. She's been such an interesting character this season. I know you're obviously not responsible for the entire season. This is your slice of the pie, but she's been so back, she's been around and background, but hasn't had a ton to do. She's just been there. Do you know what I mean? And so it is interesting, this, this watch gift giving scene is almost one of the biggest, like, character moments for her in all of this. Or when she's talking to him about, hey, maybe take the buyout, maybe get out. Maybe that's what we do. Yeah. So I'm just curious, you know, what you think of her as like background. Like, does Kendall see her as a real person or is she some kind of accessory to him? Like, what do you think? Yeah. And I personally think she's a real person. And I mean, obviously a lot of that is just Annabelle.

is so gifted and brings so much to it. Like a lot of these actors on, I mean, when you have a show, I guess, like this, and so many, you know, it's just so sprawling, so many people. Yeah. You kind of have to make sure everyone with one line is even the most believable version of them.

So, so, yeah, there's, there's, I think you just, you know, everybody has their, their DNA sorted out. And I, you know, I think Annabelle knows Naomi very well. And I, I think the relationship, between Kendall and Naomi, at least when you look back at previous episodes, it does feel like it's built on something, even if it's both being broken, you know, trying to put their broken pieces together. I think that's a lot of it. And so I do think it's a real connection. I think she's

the mother he doesn't have. I think she has to fill a lot of shoes, you know. And so I think that's why she's so important to this episode and why she's the only one who could see him having a temper tantrum and bring him back from that and comfort him. And I think, you know, that's why I think that look on her face at the very end is so special because there's so much going on for her in that moment. And I think you, you know, you do get a window in a certain character's by the people they're interacting with. And it is also the joy of a show like this, an ensemble show like this.

It's like, oh, great. I get to have a Tom and Greg together. Obviously, that's so exciting. But, you know, you get to have all these different interactions with characters. And, you know, but their relationship, I think, is true. It doesn't mean it's okay. It doesn't mean it's, you know, it's not wishful fulfillment.

But it's something that I think he has a real need for her. And I think the look on her face I'm wondering about, because I haven't watched or I didn't read the scripts after mine. So I truly know nothing about what's coming after my episode. I can't wait to see. But, you know, that for me was, you know, I'm so curious what we're teeing up there because she looks like she just, you know,

she just had a day with her son going, wow, I'm really in for this ride, aren't I? This is, you know, I'm curious where they're going to end up after that. This is obviously the Kendall show, but, you know, as my co-host, Sean Fantasy likes to say, everyone gets a lick of the ice cream cone in this episode. So I wanted to ask you about a couple of other Roy kids here. Obviously, let's talk about Chavon's dance scene and what that was like to put together. with Sarah, were you just like go for it? Was there a plan? What were you doing there? I mean, we certainly have a plan, but not really. I think that was born out of the writers,

some, you know, maybe a rap party at some point seeing Sarah in her element. And I think when you've seen Sarah in her element, you absolutely want to see it on screen because it's, she's an incredible dancer, really expressive and takes up the floor, you know. So, um, That was one, I think all we really, as far as, you know, figuring out what the song was that was going to get her to loosen up like that, to get to get to see Shiv, let her hair down. And it's a bit of an angry dance, you know, it's a bit of, there's a lot going on emotionally for her. It's a bit of, it's a bit of, you know, demons taking over. But it was all about the song. And that was something that Sarah, had picked out for herself. And of course, Jesse, you know, everybody involved wanted to make sure that that was something

that was going to get her there. So, yeah, that song came directly from Sarah. As far as covering it, I mean, what's hard about something like that, I just wanted to treat it like Jalo's dance and, you know, just watch it in real time for three full minutes. But, you know, how to stay true

to the visual language of the show and the tone. and the pace of the episode and yet, you know, get the most out of it. So that was something that we, you know, talked about a lot, obviously. As a quick aside, can I just say that I can't remember ever gasping, like, with more shock and joy than when I was in the theater watching Hustlers and J-Lo's heels clicked on the floor on either side of her as she did those, like, laying down splits. And I was just like, I was shocked and amazed and delighted.

Anyway, that's great. Love husband. Speaking of people sort of wilding out and exercising demons, there's this great, a couple great Tom and Greg scenes, but back in the office when Tom sort of flips the desk and celebrates and Matthew is sort of wilding out and hopping on filing cabinets and doing all these sort of things, was that, do we have like one and done or did we reset the desk? Did you say like, Matt, do whatever you want in the room? Like, what was that like?

Yeah, I mean, it was so funny. That was like one of the scenes where you just felt like, oh, I can't wait to do this. There's so much build up. We probably talked about it too much leading up to it. Just go and like, can't wait for that desk scene. But on the day, we didn't want to talk about it. We didn't want to over talk what he was going to do. And yet, of course, there's safety to keep in mind.

It's an incredibly heavy desk. It's one of those, I mean, it's so heavy. It's got huge, fire. aisle cabinets on either side of it. And of course, you know, Greg is sitting right there. So, so we had to do the slightest bit of choreography beforehand and then set everything up, you know, here's the garbage can to kick, here's some papers to knock over. Here's, you know, we had enough for, I think, three to four setups. We could, we could do it. I think we had triples of everything and maybe squeezed a fourth one out if we could. But yeah, we just, you know,

like everything on the show, you want to keep it loose and let the actors feel free and spontaneous to even surprise themselves. And I think also like any Tom and Greg scene, it's about Matthew and Nick trying not to laugh. So they're just so funny together. And I do think they enjoy each other very much. So yeah, it was, it was certainly a dance with the cameras to make sure that we were out of our own way and, but also wanting to, you know, not miss anything. I obviously have, could ask you 20 questions about Tom and Greg, but I do not want to neglect Roman, because this does feel like a really big episode for him. I tend to feel very tender towards Roman. This is an episode that I left feeling it was very hard for me to root for him at the end of

this episode. And there's also, in addition, you know, speaking of like sort of trying out different things with the camera, I thought the scene with him and Alexander Sarsgaard in the bathroom was really interesting camera-wise in terms of like, I mean, it's funny and a great scene, but also just like where the camera was unusually sort of crammed in behind shoulders and like different like sort of pop zoom. So I was just wondering if you could talk about like, as my last question to you, the Roman of it all and maybe that sort of set up specifically. Yeah, I mean, Roman, I mean, Roman is, I think, my favorite character also, and Kieran is brilliant. Kieran is one of those actors who acts with his whole body.

He's such a physical actor. Blocking is always interesting with Kieran because he knows Roman so well. And it's, you know, you could have a chair in a room, but that doesn't mean Roman's going to sit in that chair. So that's the fun with Kieran is seeing his physicality. And I think that was what was so fun about this particular episode. He's just brilliant. He's really brilliant. He and Alexander, the two of them together had such great chemistry.

The bathroom scene was, I think, the first one that we shot together. But the hardest I've ever laughed on any set ever was the two of them in that bathroom. Kieran's also such a great improviser. there's just you wish you could just string together the the ends of every single scene what what choices he makes before you yell cut always always so funny so funny um but yeah the camera work in there i mean we we were in a very cramped bathroom so you know a bit of a bit of a necessity but also i think that's you know fun is the the the two different places i mean roman is finally getting in there he is he is he is he is is like landing the whale in this episode. And so he has such a huge success in here. And he kind of is the only person to get, I mean, of course this is the location

where Roman does his best work. It's somehow in this cramped men's room peeing on a phone. It's a truly Roman idea that only someone has interested, I'll say strange and interesting as Mattston as Alexander's character. You know, it's a perfect location for this kind of deal with this kind of person. So, yeah, that was, that was fun. Another Roman bathroom deal on the books. Thank you so much for the chat.

I really appreciate it so much. Absolutely. Yeah, thank you. Okay, Joanna. Thank you to Lorraine Scafaria. Thank you to you. Thank you to our dynamite producer. and Rage Against the Machine fan, Steve Allman.

We're coming back next week on this show to watch episode 8, the penultimate episode of this season. I'll have you know. Maybe we'll have a conversation with somebody from this episode or in the extended universe of succession. Anything else going on in this feed? We've got a pre-cap coming on Friday from CR and Was? What else?

You got anything else off your sleeves on the Prestige TV pod? I've heard some buzzing of yellow jackets might be on the horizon, so we'll see. Interesting. intriguing. Okay, we'll see you guys then. Thank you. Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile, the message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop. With Mint, you can get premium wireless for just $15 a month.

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