The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Succession’ Season 4, Episode 2 Recap

Episode Date: April 3, 2023

Bill, Sean, and Joanna are back to break down the second episode of ‘Succession’ Season 4. They discuss Logan Roy’s explosive speech at ATN and the increasing possibility of his demise by season’s end, Connor’s chaotic rehearsal dinner, and the inevitable dissolution of the Roy siblings’ partnership. Along the way, they also talk about whether Shiv’s motives this season are personal or strategic, as well as the fascinating evolution of Kerry as a fringe character turned series regular. They close with the biggest winners and losers of the episode and the best quotes, then make their predictions for next week. Hosts: Bill Simmons, Sean Fennessey, and Joanna Robinson Producer: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Erica Ramirez, founder of Ili, and hosts of What About Your Friends? A podcast dedicated to the many lives of friendship and how it's portrayed in pop culture. Every Wednesday on the ringer dish feed, I talk to my best friend Stephen Othello and your favorites from within the ringer and beyond about friendships on TV and movies, pop culture and our real lives. So join me every Wednesday on the ringer dish feed where we try to answer the question TLCS back in the day, what about your friends. You said this place was steps from the water. We just haven't found the steps yet. How much did we save? Enough.

Enough to get lost. Or you could book a stay with Hilton. Welcome to your oceanfront room. Just steps from the water. The Hilton sale is on now. Book on Hilton.com or the Hilton app and save up to 20% to get the stay you expected. When you want savings, not surprises.

It matters where you stay. Hilton for the stay. It's the Prestige TV podcast. My name is Bill Simmons. I'm here with Sean Fantasy and Joey and Rob. We're going to talk about episode two, season four, succession. Why does everyone ask how I'm feeling, guys? Leave me alone.

Is this not a karaoke party? I was ready to do karaoke. What was that song? What was Connor's song? Sean, you know a lot about music. It was, yeah, famous blue raincoat, an incredible Leonard Cohen song. And, you know, really an ode to sadness. So perfect for Connor.

Wow. What an episode. I'm glad I'm here with you. to needy love sponges. Before we get through all the big stuff, Joanna, what was the big theme for you for this one? What is love? Is it all transactional?

What do you have, Sean? Does anybody know what they really want? I don't think anybody in this world knows what they want. Yeah, this was the episode. I thought this was weaker than episode one where, you know, I have my issues with the Shiv character, not the performance, but how it's written. And she's always been the one that I never felt like they totally 100% landed the plane on.

And in this one, now she's trying to be a dealmaker, kind of outthink her dad, think she's smarter than her dad, which I felt like if you, especially in the rewatch in season one, I always felt like she was savier than this? Or Joanne, am I overrating what they laid out in season one? Like, what happened to Shiv? She's the one, she felt like she was a little bit of the savvy anchor, even though her her weakness was her dad, trusting her dad, but for the most part, had a pretty good sense of the chess board.

And now it seems like it's gone sideways. So why? What happened? Yeah, well, I mean, I guess we don't know yet whether or not she's right or Logan's right about this. Though the fact that both Logan and Roman, who have had like good business sense in the past seemed to not like this move, you know, it has to make us wary. but at the same time,

there is something that she has in this episode because as they're making their moves and as they're holding their line, Logan concedes, he's like, they've got something, they've got juice. They have something,

you know, so later he calls them not serious people and we'll talk about that because that's like a recurring thing in succession, but there are things that they do in this episode to get their dad's admiration and to get their dad to move in ways he's never moved before at their beck and call,

you know? Like, Yeah. There is something that they're doing that is different. And I don't know if it's right, but it shakes up the dynamic in a way we haven't seen before. I don't know if that answers your SHIV question, though, because I think fundamentally I might always disagree with you around SHIV and that's okay. But I think I thought, well, what I thought was really fascinating was Jesse Armstrong on the official podcast this week. Last week was saying the SHIV and Tom storyline, he feels like might be the show.

Like, he feels like that's the show. and so that's interesting to me to think about. I had never considered that he thought that was sort of maybe the central axis. I always assumed Kendall or something like that. But I don't know. I need to think about it. I don't know if I totally buy Armstrong's premise there. But, you know, last week I was saying that I think that she's the most tragic character on the show.

And I think what you were seeing in that first season bill was a person who was outside of the family business. And we've watched her over the course. of the last three plus seasons get into the family business and learn why Kendall is a shell of a man, why Roman is a ball of insecurity and neediness, and why those two are so fucked up. And as she has gotten closer to it, she has kind of unraveled a bit. And she has kind of lost that poker face that made her such a compelling first season figure. But I mean, I think that that just puts her in league with her other siblings, you know, like the closer you are to this stuff, the more, you know, the more you get burned by the son of Logan.

And so, I don't know if she's like done for necessarily, but you can see that she had never really been screwed over in the, in the exact way that she was at the end of season three. And so this was, this episode was about revenge for her. It was about getting to say to his face, I can beat you too. I thought that that was a fascinating scene. I mean, you know, it's obviously it was like the centerpiece and the culmination of everything that had happened previous to it.

it was the most like written scene I could remember on the show in a while where I was like you know it felt like everyone's inner monologue kind of come to life and they let the like joky guard down a little bit but I don't know I there's still room for shift to emerge I still feel like there's a chance Armstrong has always felt very interested in her

like in a way that maybe he's not as interested in Roman and like what's in Roman's heart for example if you're doing glass half full on the shift thing this episode, I think more than anything else, hammers home. These kids are just so damaged by Logan Roy that now they feel like his judgment is compromised, he's weaker. They actually went from this probably growing up

and even as young adults just thinking, like whatever this guy thinks is going to be the way to go is the way to go. And now for the first time, they're looking sideways. Now that might be their own self-interest, but there's there it's almost like they're looking for these little moments from him. We're like, oh, he's losing it. See, did you see that? And that's what this episode is really about.

It's he's losing his grasp on the world. There's all these little moments where even at the end when he's walking by the homeless guy and he's like, look at this fucking guy. He's just, he's, even the rats are getting fat. He's just, he's kind of so fed up with everybody. He's, his kids, fuck them. AT&D, he goes in. He does this crazy Braefart speech. for reasons that remained unclear.

He won't stop his nutty girlfriend from trying to be an ATN anchor. And he's just constantly just shoving it on Tom and Greg. It just feels like he lost the steering wheel in this, specifically in this episode, Joanna. Yeah, I mean, well, first of all, did you feel like that was homage to Jack Nicholson at the end of The Departed when he's talking about

the rats in the city? My favorite moment in the entire Martin's Corsese in filmography. No, I don't totally disagree, but I think that losing it comes not just from like he's old or his faculties, but it becomes from this move that the kids have made, that the kids did not come bend the knee at the birthday party. And he's just like, for once in his life, his move hasn't worked. There's this great line that I'm thinking about from his ex-wife, Shiv's mom, at the end, end of last season when she talks about how he never met something that he wouldn't kick in

order to see if it would come back to him, right? And he kicked the kids so hard at the end of last season. And except for Roman at the end of this episode, they're not coming back to him. And I feel like that's the first time in his life that that has been true. Well, so think about that Roman choice, though. So he sized up the room and he's like, I've lost Shiv. Shiv's out. She's turned on me. Kendall turned on me a while ago. Connor's fucking out to lunch. But Roman is still kind of wants my love and approval and affection. He's the one that texted me happy birthday when all the kids agreed.

And he just, it seems like he can snap his fingers and Romans back with him. So he senses that. Sean, do we think that Roman move was a move to try to undermine the kids? Or is it like his way to think, all right, here's my last chance to have something good with one of these kids? To me, it felt like a chess move by Logan to fuck up their deal and try to turn them against each other. Can it be both? I feel like it's both. I feel like in his own twisted soul, Logan, if he doesn't want love, he at least wants fealty, right?

He at least wants to be told that he's great by his children. So he still gets that from one of them. Everything he's done is about his children, Sean. Remember of the therapy? Yeah, that's what I've been saying to my little girl. Ever since she's born. Alice, I wake up every day, I record pods for you. These podcasts are for you, sweetheart.

But I think also it's definitely a move, right? He's trying to disrupt the power of that trio coming together and working together. And like the three of them coming together, they bought a $10 billion media company. I mean, they actually did something when they decided to team up. And if they had done so earlier, they might have been able to wrestle control away from him earlier. You know, doing the rewatch of the show. and we talked about, you know, the famous episode where Kendall tried to have the vote against his father

with the board, I mean, if they had all teamed up earlier or if even just Kendall and Roman had teamed up earlier, they would have been in control. This would have been over. Again and again, it's Roman who folds first, right? It's Roman who cannot stand up. And, like, there's a lot that we, when people talk about, like, who's the best of the kids,

I think a lot of people say Roman because he has some of his dad's sort of, like, instinctual business savvy. But when it comes to that sort of standing, strong. He's the most emotionally intelligent, as we talked about last week. And there are moments this episode where he asked Willa if she's okay. When he cares about if Conner's okay, like, he's obviously the most sensitive. That means he's the quickest to fold of the kids, always, every single time. But also was the winner of this episode because he's just, the Romans on a heater this season. I think he's had like 30 unbelievable one-liners. It's just like it's

complete command of the character. Even like, you know, and you see Connor singing the karaoke, you're like, oh my God, I can't wait to see what Romans, like, whose fucking zinger is going to be about this. And it's always good. The first two episodes, I think, have been funny, even for this show. Like, really, really, really good stuff.

Connor was amazing. Let's go through the big stuff. So the big premise was, should the Roy's blow up, Dad's Go-Joe deal. What do we think of what's going on with Matt's in here? He looks like he's like camera, Cameron Scott and singles after what's her face leaves?

He's got the in the room with the pizza boxes unshaven. Like is he unraveling more than maybe they're telling us? There's just massive like Elon Musk tweeting at 3 a.m. Energy coming out of Madsen. Yeah. It's like it's very obvious where they're pulling from some very clear sources here.

Like right now Logan is pure Rupert Murdox breaking off Fox News from Fox before the Disney deal. and Matt's in his pure musk, like, empire building, needing every deal to go well, but also, like, maybe kind of hammered at 3 o'clock in the morning. So there seems to be a lot of ripped from the headline stuff going on. I don't believe that Alexander Scarzgard has ever had, like, a soda in his life. Right? I was curious why you think he called Kendall since he had that, like, relationship with Roman at the end of last season. Like, why do you think it's Kendall is the one he called? I didn't understand that. I don't know whether they felt like that.

they needed a Kendall scene for that spot, but it just seems like Roman would have been the one he called. Or maybe Roman didn't answer. Kendall's easier to push around in that regard? Like, what do you think? I think he probably thinks of Kendall as the most kind of, I don't know, business experience of the three,

you know, the person who's kind of closest to dealmaking and probably understands the limits. And maybe knows that he has a relationship with Stewie possibly, too, and that there's a way to get to him there as well. But I thought that was interesting. And actually to go back to what you were saying, Bill, about why Roman. I think one of the other

small pieces there is that Roman is the one who has the relationship with the Justin Kirk character too. And so if Roman's going to get plugged in an ATN and that's going to lead to, you know, the attempt to get Kirk's character elected, then all of that, you know, that's a kind of a triangulation, two of things. So they're always kind of,

you know, they're all kind of looking for the people who have the right relationship. It's, that's very true to real life too, right? Like, you call this person because you know them and then you get this deal done for me so that I don't have to worry about doing it. So we have that. And one of the quotes is maybe dad isn't on it like he used to be, which is one of the first times

we've heard the kids say that. So we have that. We have Logan showing up at ATN. I don't know that's true. I feel like Kendall's been saying that, like, since the start, he's constantly looking for that. And this feels like,

this carry move here feels completely parallel to Logan trying to get Marsha on the board in season one. Like, this is something he does every time there's a new woman in his life. He's going to do something, you know, to promote their power. This is like the, again,

It's the transactional thing, right? It's like, what can he offer? I can offer you a spot at ATN, and then I'm going to do a slimy backdoor passes off onto Greg to and Tom to take care of situation. And I could offer you a really old 80-year-old snoring body at night. You can have that too. What sex here? Yeah, it's the same.

We have Logan showing up at ATN with Greg saying he looks like if Santa Claus was a hip man. And then it's like Jaws. If everyone in Jaws who worked for Jaws, Craig's just ripping them off. And Logan has one of like a really great Brian Cox moment. They really let him go. Brian Cox was cooking in this episode. He was throwing heaters.

He's throwing curveballs and sliders. But just gets on a chair and just starts firing up ATN. He's going to get more involved. Do you think that all rang true, Joanna? It was a plinth of printer paper, which was like even more hilarious to me, this little stage that they made that Sid was like, I would like it if that were a little more stable. Did that ring true? I mean, yeah, it does ring true for me that someone who feels isolated and lonely and sad is just going to pour themselves into a project. And needs the approval from the office?

Right. And to drag us back to Shakespeare Corner, like, you mentioned Braveheart, of course, but like, this is, this is St. Christmas Day speech. This is Julius Caesar. Like, they let Brian Cox do a modern day, like, big Shakespeare drums war speech. And he just demolished it. Like, he was so good in that speech. And does it ring true? Yeah. I mean, and also what else rings true is the way that, like, billionaires, I've, I haven't experienced this in the legacy media companies that I've worked for, but elsewhere where I've worked, billionaires are the people who are the most likely to nickel and dime you. There was some real, like, Ike Pearl Motor energy here from him of just sort of like the pizza boxes or whatever it is. When, like, we've seen Logan, you know, throw lobsters away, you know, just to, like, order pizza in and stuff like that. So, yeah, all of this felt really correct to me, absolutely. I love the speech so much.

does 15 equal 40 and opening up with an intimidation and then moving into all of the Loganisms. He has these aphoristic words and phrases that he always talks about. My favorite part of the speech is so fucking spicy,

so true, something everyone knows but nobody says. And that is like a little bit of a callback to when he has the sit down with Kendall at the end of season 3 and he's like, a little bit of spice, a little bit of fun, a little bit of truth. You know, like he has these phrases that he likes. And then I'll say you're fucking pirates.

Just like, what is pirates? Where does that even come from? I'm going to do it here with you lot. Yeah. Yeah. So I, you know, I like that there's like consistency in the characters in that way. And yeah, and Cox gets to have the opposite at the end of this episode too, right? He has this very quiet, simple, direct, kind of plaintive conversation with his kids. And it's the two sides of such a great actor. I feel like I'm being set up for him dying like in episode five, though. I really feel like they're now like, they're giving us a lot of Cox on a thousand. And so I'm bracing myself for like a hard pivot in the middle of the season and then the show sorting itself out. I say I don't predict things on the show.

But for whatever reason, I'm like, this is two in a row now where they're really letting Cox rip. And that feels like a like they're waving a flag about something. Do you think Rupert Murdoch would have just showed up at the Fox News office and gotten on a Xerox machine and just screamed your fucking pirates and everybody? Pretty sure somebody would have videotaped that from the back? just got the phone out just like I'm recording this this is worth $5 billion nobody did that in this scene

even more than Logan's big speech I loved the like snide back and forth with Tom and Sid like the continuation of their dynamic right when he was like when he's like how do you like the refit for the election

and Logan Hasty's like oh yeah Sid really wanted that or like oh you know she doesn't tend to be here that late when it's opera season and then she comes in she's like oh my social secretary Tom. There's just these tiny little lives at all point that they're digging into each other. I love the Cid character because she might even be older than Logan. And when she comes in,

it's like, is this person like 120? How old when they always talk about her, she's been around for a while? You just have no idea, but she's clearly, you know, going to get sacrificed and pushed out at some point. He says in this episode that she's out, right? Yeah, but he says this all the time, but it really does seem like, all right, maybe this one. I find it hard to believe Roman could just run ATN. Even for Logan's cockamamie schemes, this one seems a little strange. The last time Roma was given a job, he immediately pulled all the shades down and jerked off in his office. Like, this is not a 100% competent human being.

Yeah. He also exploded a rocket, which was not ideal. It's had some struggles. Not great. So we have that. We have Connor's rehearsal dinner. I would have liked to have seen Willa meltdown during the rehearsal dinner speech and say, I can't do this and then go in the bathroom for 40 minutes.

I wish that had not been a deleted scene. But, you know, Joanne, you can't be jumping for joy the whole time, even during your wedding weekend. I think we learned that from Willa. Of course. And if you're the bride, you're not really needed at the rehearsal dinner if you're the bride, right? Like, you can just leave. That's fine. It's fine.

It's fine. It's fine. This is just heading off a quick. if, and Conor knows it. And it's funny, the kids say to him how you can't lose Willow, this is such a catch for you. But I don't, I feel like Connor could probably do a little better than the former call girl who clearly doesn't like him that much, but maybe he hates himself that much.

I don't know. What do you think of this spot, Sean? I thought that was a very, other than the comedy part. I thought it was a really revealing comment that you just, that you just mentioned when they're like, you know, you're not going to do better than her. I guess it's an indication of who he had previously dated. probably more so than anything. I don't think it's necessarily about who Connor could attract,

but maybe who he pursues and the fact that maybe he doesn't always have the most discerning taste. I don't know. I love Willa. I think she's like one of the best characters on the show. And we talked about her a lot last season. And she gets gifted so many great lines and Justine Loop is hilarious on this show. I mean, they're going to get married, right?

There has to be a wedding. There's like the best scenes in the show or take place at weddings. But I don't think that. that's going to be a very happy marriage. But then again, has there ever been a happy marriage in his three of succession? You don't think Connor and Willow are going to work out? No.

I mean, look at all the... Just multiple kids living in Bedford? Marsha, Rava, Harriet Walter's character, Shiv and Tom. It's just all this... The trail of tears, really. I mean, it's just there's no... Not a happy marriage inside years. Yeah.

But the thing that I think is so interesting about those two, about Willa and Connor is, like, again, that transactional question of, like, It's on the, it's like the premise of their relationship is that this is transactional. Versus like pretending that things aren't transactional in these other relationships. Like even with Tom and Shiv, you know, Tom wants something from Shiv in terms of advancement in the family. And then also we agree, loved her. So there's like something in the mix there. But all of these, well, I don't know about Rava, Rava and Ken is something completely different.

But all of these things have been so transactional but pretending they're not. And I think there's something kind of oddly refreshing about Connor and Willa and having that be just the baseline of their relationship. And I think, you know, we talked about this last week with Tom and Shiv, this sort of like alarmingly serious section at the end of last week's episode. And we get like a mirror of that with Connor and Willa, right, where he like comes home and they curl up in bed together and they're just like quiet together. And I'm not saying it's like a love story for the ages. But there's something. Connor has been one of, if not the biggest buffoon in this family, and to give him the like,

I don't need love. I'm a plant that grows on rocks and lives off insects that die inside of me. I mean, it's funny, but it's like, this guy who's been there punching bag for three seasons, he's like, guess what? Nobody in my family loves me, and I know that, and I don't need it. But then, of course, he does. Like, of course he's so thirsty for some kind of affection from Willa.

And I, you know, I just think they're giving all the clowns, like these moments of extreme pathos this, or at least so far this season, you know. That was a revealing Connor moment, actually, because Logan leaves. We'll talk about that a little bit later, but he just absolutely drops an anvil and all of them and walks out. And Conner's like, you guys are still trying to get dad's love. Like, I never had his love. I'm fine. I'm strong. I don't need love.

And he does this whole speech. but we never really got the backstory for what happened with Connor. And then there was a little breadcrumb dropped during when they were all yelling at Logan. And they said, you had Connor's mom locked up. Had we heard that before? Am I crazy? Well, we had heard that she went to a mental institution. Yeah.

But we never heard that. That Logan was the one that did it, though. I don't remember that piece of info. And I've rewatched this show four times, though. But that was, I was like, oh, it just feels like there's a. Connor backstory that maybe we'll get. Because it's never totally made sense why it's the three of them are more important than Connor.

Like he's not on the board. He's not really in the mix like they are, even though he's the oldest. And he'll mention that in a couple episodes in the past. Like, I'm the oldest, but it's not really. Like, nobody really respects him that way. So it feels like there's some backstory that's still kind of keeping from us. Connor Roy, first pancake, right? first pancake, which is one of my favorite insults that they've ever given.

But I think in that first pancake scene is when they talk about his mom. They mentioned a couple of times, you're right. I'm not sure we knew that Logan is the one who like institutionalized her or not. But we knew that Connor's mom. That's not nothing. No. If I institutionalized my first wife, I feel like Sean would have an opinion on it. I've only had one wife.

But it was like, where's Carrie? Oh, Bill institutionalized her. That seems aggressive. Not sure I would talk about it with you on this pod. but, you know, I probably might have an opinion. Right. Yeah. I love Carrie.

She's the best. Yeah, that's a tricky one. I wonder if they'll actually, that's an interesting question to ask about like the end of a season two is like, will they actually reveal everything or will they just kind of leave some stuff on the table? You know, there are going to be some kind of loose strands. We're not going to know everything about every character. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, who Connor. Actually, the thing I thought was most revealing there was when they were like, dad ignored you, Connor.

like basically didn't pay attention to you that like he's, you know, we knew that but it had never been said so bluntly in front of Logan, you know, that Connor was basically like one the third of a child or half of a child and never really considered a full son and how painful that must be for him.

And also maybe if he institutionalized his mother, maybe he feels like Connor has some sort of like mental health problem and that that's the reason why he never was able to pull him close that he felt like he was infected or something and that that would inform why he's always been on the outside of some of the business stuff. Yeah, that whole scene was kind of the therapy scene that they never actually had in the first season.

Right. Partly because the therapist jumped in a pool and broke his face open. But maybe they never got to that point. But yeah, it was kind of the most honest they were about each other in front of him. The other time we saw that was just when it was Logan and Connor and the second and last episode last year when they had the dinner. A Logan and Kendall. Logan and Kendall, sorry. and he just demolishes Kendall.

Kendall thinks the famous moment when he has Kendall's son try the food because he doesn't trust that he's not being poisoned. You like mozzarella? Wait, going backwards. Just so we can get to the karaoke place. Connor decides he wants to go to a real bar for a drink, which I thought was hilarious.

Is that or is that not? Have either of you ever been to Corner Bistro in the West Village? in New York City. I feel like that's Corner Bistro, which has one of the best hamburgers in America. And they're standing in there, and I was like,

if I was in Corner Bistro with my dirtbag friends in 2008, and the Roy siblings walked in, I would be like, if Lachlan Murdoch walked into Corner Bustro, I'd be like, what the fuck? Like, nobody would have their phone out. It would be a crazy thing. Well, Connor just wanted whatever a regular Joe would have, a Belgian vice beer.

No Hoagarden, though. That was an amazing scene. A real bar with chicks and guys who work with their hands and grease and sweat from their hands and blood in their hair. She wants to be a regular guy for an hour. Love to have blood in my hair. And then he walks in and he's like, ah, America, I missed you. Like, it's incredible. And then they decided to go sing karaoke.

And they go, it goes to Connor singing that song. And Romans just having a seizure. This is Guantanamo level shit. It just goes dark. When he asks, do you think they have Desperado by the Eagles? And Roman says, I assume they do, darkest night of my life. Yeah. So funny.

But something we've talked about before is like, these kids are so mean to each other. I call them kids. They're adults. These siblings are so mean to each other. So when they're nice to each other, like, it really hits for me. So like, is Roman giving Conner so much shit throughout this? Yes. But he's the one who's like, hey, man.

hey, we need to take care of Connor. Let's go to this terrible bar, though it sounds, Cornerbeaster sounds nice. Let's go to karaoke. I'll complain about it, but they all went. They all went in with him. They made ten jokes about Willow banging other guys and all this stuff, but then he's the one who sticks up for Connor

when they're turning on him in the karaoke. And I love what Ken's like, should we monitor her dot together, put it up on the big screen when he's like following. Willis find your phone? Yeah. I would have liked more karaoke. I got to be honest. I would have liked to have heard from everybody. I would have loved the Roman karaoke. Feels like there were some good deleted scenes for this one. Roman's karaoke. I would have love to know what he picked. Bill, where are you out on karaoke? Listen, karaoke is always fun. Yeah. It's always good. Joe, you'll partake from time to time. Oh, yeah. Of course. Of course. I'm not doing Lenny Leonard Cohen. I'll tell you that much right now. But I think they had Leonard Cohen like in a karaoke machine. That seemed like a fancy karaoke bar. I got to say that private room. was decked out.

Before they go into their private room, the girl was singing sort of in the more public area where Roman's like, your wedding's curse or whatever, she was singing Wonderwall. So, you know, that's a little more classic

karaoke pick for you. So Logan shows up, tries to do the friendly Logan thing. It doesn't work. You're a human fucking gaslight. They're just saying mean things to him. And after he tries every single thing he can try,

he finally drops the anvil. You're such fucking dopes. You were not serious figures. I love you, but you are not serious people walks out. Tough one. It's like the third or fourth time he's dropped the anvil on them as a group. And this, I think, was the most brutal of all of them. Because, by the way, I kind of think he's right.

I don't think they're serious people. Even though they were able to get the $10 million to buy Pierce, we still don't know where they got the other $8 million. But I don't think these three are going to do a good job running Pierce. I don't think these three should be running anything. And I think they kind of deep down know it. You don't think the All Africa All the Time show is going to do really well on Indiana. International news.

It's going to be great. No. But, Sean, like, ultimately, Logan's right. He knows these, he knows that he coddled these kids too much, that they don't have enough life experience to pull off something that they didn't have to work and think and see the chessboard like he does. And they're just not going to make it. Well, so I want to talk about this.

that because aside from, you know, the incredible plan for, you know, global, global to hyperlocal, which just sounds wonderful. Homework the show. Yeah. Homework the show. Yeah. A focus on Africa every day. I, okay.

So, Shiv calls Sandy and dimes on the shape of the deal, right? Says, you know, basically indicates that either we can get more or, and what I'm still not totally sure what her motivation there was, because it, it is. related to this question about what Logan thinks of them. Is Shiv's motivation to squeeze her dad more as punishment for giving him the tip on the divorce lawyers for Tom to meet with everyone? Or is it actually to blow up the deal? Like, is there a part of her that wants to blow it up?

I don't understand the motivation either, Sean. Well, I don't think she wants to blow it up. I think she just wants to, like, exert her power over her dad and get him to do something for her. There was this really interesting quote that, I think it was Sarah Snooker or was Jesse Armstrong

gave about the fact what Shiv was trying to do in her fight with Tom last week, which was like she wasn't, didn't actually want a divorce, she was just like pushing him to try to get him to fight harder for their marriage.

And so it's similar to that whole kicking a thing and watch it come back to you. You know what I mean? Like Shiv needs to exert control over it. She feels so out of it. of control. She feels so beta in all of these situations, and she needs to feel like she has control over something.

Like, their dad can cancel their helicopter on a whim and, like, leave them stranded on the tarmac looking like idiots or whatever. And she's like, and it's not just like what he did to them at the end of season three, felt personal for sure, but definitely at least was business. But advising Tom on their divorce, that is nothing but personal. That is so personal. And for her to feel like I got mommed, and that's another thing. Like, that's a really strong thing for, like, young women who have watched their mothers be kicked around in a marriage and maybe not, like, stood up for them.

But then to see themselves get put in that same position and kicked around when they're older is, like, a really, like, she's just, her pride is wounded and she is furious and she is vengeful. And so, like, whether or not this is a good business move, which, again, I'm not sure. sure it is because both Logan and Roman think that Madsen's going to balk at this. The fact that she manipulates it behind the scenes, she does do that, you know, in a way where like nobody catches, like the boys don't catch on to what she's doing in this episode, maneuvering Sandy and Siri to show up. And she's like, oh, wow, this is a really inconvenient time, guys. What are you doing here? You know what I mean? Like, she makes all of that happen. It's funny. He seems like he respects the move. And maybe that was.

a piece of why she did it just because it was a good move to kind of you have no power in this deal that's happening anyway. So, oh, wait, why don't we grab some of the power? And Logan's like, oh, I like, even though it makes no sense. Like they're squeezing him for an extra $100 million. Connor just spent that on his fucking election. You know, like $100 million through these people is nothing. They just got $100 billion from, tell us, the Harvard business guy, you just find them another $100. So it's more about the chess move and making Logan uncomfortable. So he walks out, but then somehow sucks Roman back in and tells Roman, you'll not piss.

Smart people know who they are. I love that. I need you. That's great. When he does the lower scale Brian Cox, he scales it back. Does the acoustic Brian Cox. I need you. Roman's just in.

He's just, oh, my dad, who used to hit me when I was a kid, who's mean to me as an adult. I love this guy. I'm back in. It's just, it took a minute. Suck him back. For me, it was, we know what they're like, right? When he was like, you and I are the smart ones,

and we know what they're like, your siblings. Well, he also went from being horrified by Roman for the dickpicks. Is there something wrong with you? Are you mentally ill? So there's the mental illness thing again. But now he's fine. Now he needs Roman. So he's like, ah, dick picks, whatever.

throws him out. He mentions there's going to be a night of the long knives. And this is when he says, like, SIDS out, which is very similar to the sort of blood sacrifice comment, like conversation with Shiv a couple seasons ago. But Night of the Long Knives, right, is, you know, the name of the night when Hitler killed a bunch of his, you know, would be challengers and consolidates.

his power. Like, how would you feel if your dad was like, we're going to do a Crystal Knox? Like, we're going to do a Hitler move. Yeah, it's a purge. Yeah. Yeah.

Here's what we're going to do. Well, his dad's such a cool guy normally. So out of character for him to invoke Nazi history, you know, as he runs a far right wing news network. Maybe it would have gone with the godfather christening scene of something a little softer than Hitler and the Nazis, but, you know, it seemed pretty intentional.

Well, I mean, they're about to elect a demagogue, you know, like that's the thing. It's, none of it is by mistake. Snoring, gasping during sleep, feeling fatigue, ask your doctor about Zepbound, terseptite. The first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and adults with obesity. Zep-bound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity

to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and obesity. beastly to improve their OSA. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligram injection. Zepound contains terseptitide and should not be used with other terseptide containing products or any GLP1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pins or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop, Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include

inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepound with a sulfonel urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsened kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-99 or visit zepbound.lily.com. It's time to refresh your yard during spring backyard days at the Home Depot. Get low prices guaranteed on propane grills starting at $179 like the next grill three-burner gas grill or get $50 off a select Weber Spirit grill and bring big flavor to your backyard. Then set the scene with Hampton Bay string lights

that bring it all together. Shop spring backyard days for seven days at the Home Depot. Now through May 6th. Exclusion supplies, see Home Depot.com slash price match for details. Wishing you could be there live for the big game, soaking up the atmosphere of the crowd.

But too often, life gets busy, or the price holds you back. Price line is here to help you make it happen. With millions of deals on flights, hotels, and rental cars, you can go see the game live. Don't just dream about it. the trip, book it with Priceline.

Download the Priceline app or visitpriceline.com. Actual prices may vary, limited time offer. We have to talk about Carrie's ATN audition tape, which was the highlight of the show. I can't believe we've gone 36 minutes without talking about it. The kids doing the mystery science theater as they're watching it must act natural to the humans. And her, the way they, it was just so high level. The way they had her like this false thing. her arms kind of came out to the side at one point.

Everything about it was so good. And then on top of it, like, oh, Carrie's really going for this. She's like, I got this 80-year-old guy. I've sexed them a couple times. Now I might be an A-T and anchor. Like, she's just pulling all those Sumner Redstone strings. I love this plot, Joanna. This is one of my favorite succession sidebar plots that they'll have every once in a long time.

Carrie is such an interesting figure in this episode because, like, when the episode starts with her making the call to cut the helicopters for the kids. And she's doing it with, like, vindictive glee. You know, she's just, like, delighted to do this. And then I will say when Greg is the one who finally sits down with her, like what I do like is that she, I mean, it's not hard to hold your own against a Greg, but she still, like, holds her own against him as not Calvin. And she's like, if you're lying about this, I'm going to take you apart like string cheese,

like all this. When she comes in after. see when she comes in. What focus group? Yeah, but when she comes in after that to talk to Logan, like she's rattled, right? She's like a little rattled. And so, you know, and she does come into the karaoke room

and she does refuse to leave. But there is this idea of proximity to power. It's like if you're sheltering under the power of Logan and you feel protected by him, you feel so snide and confident that you can just like cancel the kids' helicopters and have a great, you know, do you want me to call them and like take them apart, all this sort of stuff like that.

And then, you know, congratulations on having your betrayal, like, cherry popped. It's going to happen to all of us at the end of the day with Logan. I think Carrie's a great cautionary tale in this episode, start to finish. I'm not involved. I'm nowhere near this. I know nothing. Logan, just classic. See, it's funny.

Sometimes does not have the balls to just be honest with anyone. Sean, do you like that every woman who goes into Logan's stratosphere immediately becomes a monster? like Marsha was kind of like this too in season one. Like she was, remember with a, she cut Shiv down on the rehearsal dinner night. She just fucking destroyed her. Like people get like this extra strength from just dating him. I think it's probably safe to say he has a type as well,

that there's a certain kind of a person that he finds appealing and Kerry falls into a, you know, I mean, Kendall, Roman and Shiv's mom is no walk in the park. She's a, she's a sharp elbowed person as well, you know,

like that there's a certain kind of, acid that I think you need to be able to be attracted to Logan Roy because he is a mean mother. I thought the scene between Greg and Carrie was, that was my favorite scene in the episode. Him explaining that in the focus groups were grandpas and twerps and such. I was just, I was rolling.

Greg, like, looking for the best way to sound smart and sounding stupid is my favorite Greg. and they were really, really funny together. And Zoe Winters, I mean, I think you both mentioned this last time we talked about the first episode, but they did such a nice job of kind of like slowly introducing her throughout the third season. And I really feel like she can hang with these guys. You know, this is like a murderer's row of line readers. And she's really comfortable in these sequences and is really funny.

What's the history with her? What other stuff has she been in? I don't really, I didn't know her. I didn't know her at all. Yeah, I didn't really know her at all. She was more like a theater person before she got hired into this. But she's great because something about her hair and her look and her face, there's something kind of hard and hardened about her.

Like she's been around the block and this is her one chance to kind of grab the ring. Not somebody Logan probably would have been involved with maybe 10 years earlier would be my guess. Like even somebody like Marsha, like pretty interesting. interesting, classy person, you know, and who had, you know, some of the scenes, some of the stuff she talks about, like clearly had this whole life before Logan that was cool. This lady is just like, you know, just a little tiny great white shark swimming around the ocean. What did you think about, like, her ambition being to be an anchor? Like, I've actually felt like kind of a low, that, you know, that's not that that's not a good job, but you'd imagine that if Logan was no

longer a part of that business that you would be out. I think that's like a Sumner Redstone thing, though. It's like when he would, like when these super rich, famous, powerful people would fall for somebody who's just like, I want to be an actress. Can you get my TV show made? You know, this one's like, oh, I'm going to, I'm a PR person. I'm going to get in with Logan and maybe he'll make me an ATN anchor. I actually thought it was pretty realistic.

She's calling her parents. Like, yeah, it's going great with Logan. Didn't audition tape. It is funny how mean the kids are to her And it just bounces off her Like she's just not affected at all They can say literally anything to her She doesn't care

And I love when care You know, when Greg first pulls her aside He's like, you know, can I bend your eerie tick essentially? You know, she's like, why not you've like She just takes a shot at his like houndogging phase That he's in right now, which I really loved as well Yeah, the hair is amazing Like her look is incredible

Perfect. I love her. Yeah. So I have winners for the episode I think Logan won the episode. I thought it was a great Logan episode just from the scenes he was in, all this different stuff he got to do.

And I liked Roman and I liked, I liked Greg. I thought there was some good Greg stuff. And losers, I had, poor Connor, Carrie, who just is clear, this isn't going to go great for her. Willa, who's stuck in a loveless marriage, that she, something bad's going to happen with her.

And then Shiv. What else do you have for winners and losers, Joanna? When you talk about winners and losers for the episodes, are you talking about like performance-wise or like power-wise for the character? Just for the character, whatever their arc is, yeah. And also the combo of how the, where they're going long-term with the show, but also like just how fun was it to watch them in the episode. Yeah, I guess I don't know what I mean by winners or losers because Connor was really funny

in this episode, but I feel like he was a loser. We're in Apex Mountain Territory here, Bill. Yeah, I guess so. I mean, if I need to sort this out better. No, no, no, it can be both. Why not? But, like, I think I was fascinated by Tom. I mean, Matthew Feudan's performance is always interesting to watch.

But, like, how Tom did this killer move by engaging all these lawyers. But when Shiv calls him, he's like, first he's doing the like, I don't know, which is bullshit. But also, he just seems like he's not comfortable with what he did with Shiv and hiring all those lawyers away, like just the way that he's playing it. And then the way that he delicately tries to handle, like the way that he gets out of the car and has to run back in, literally run back in to sort of intercept Logan down on the floor and then try to manage him. The fact that he's like hanging out with Logan in his house at the end of the night.

And then Roman sweeps in. Like he's always going to be displaced by a kid. Like you can do everything you possibly can feel like doing right, Tom. And as soon as Roman walks in, Tom is displaced and Logan's basically offering Roman his job. So I would say Tom is a loser of this episode by following Logan's playbook. And I'm actually going to give Kendall and Shiv a win in that they didn't crumble in the face of their dad. Like they held strong.

Even when he called them not serious people, which is like a phrase that has recurred a couple times in the show, he's not a serious person. When he's asked about Madsen last season, he's like, is he a Twitter panty flasher or is he a serious person? This is like a recurring question for Logan, who is a serious person? Kendall told Roman at the beginning of season one, you're not a serious person. So like this is a buzzword in their family and to get hit with that by their dad and not crumble the way that Kendall crumbled at that dinner at the end of last season. I'm like, there's some growth there. And I would call Logan the loser of the episode except for Roman comes to his side at the end.

And then he like, that's a win. Yeah, performance-wise. Yeah, I guess maybe Brian Cox. was incredible. You made me think of something as you were laying that out. This show is really about fucked up relationships, but people being unable to quit them. Because I do think if Shiv wanted to get back with Tom and really rekindle it,

Tom would be back in two seconds. Yeah. 100%. I think same for Robin with the dad. Same for if Kendall, if Roman went to Kendall is like, hey, fuck all this stuff. You're my number one again. Like it's all these people are in these dysfunctional things that they would just

immediately flip the switch back on. And Willa winds up back in bed with Connor at the end of the episode. You know what I mean? And it's like, that is what Jesse Armstrong said on the official podcast is he was like this question. When he said Tom and Shib were maybe the central question of the show, the question is what is love? What is the nature of love? And like, what is, you know, what is healthy love? What is unhealthy love?

And what do we settle for that's somewhere in between, you know, which I think is interesting. Well, Sean, if your theory, I mean, I don't think any of us think Logan's going to make it to the final episode of the show, it just wouldn't make sense for him to prevail. And he's old, and at this point, he's 84, and it would seem like the natural ending would be for him to pass away at some point. But if your theory is right,

that it's going to happen relatively soon, the only one who's in a really terrible position is Tom. Because Tom's basically like, I'm grabbing onto the old guy, but I'm also, hey, Carrie, I guess would also be in not great shape. But anybody who's like, just like, I'm all in on team, team Logan,

you're basically banking that he's going to be around for another 15 years that he's not. Yeah. I mean, I mean, think back to that incredible scene between Kendall and Tom at the end of last season when they meet at the diner and then they have the conversation outside the SUV. And he says, you know,

I've never seen your dad lose once. Right. He has just fully thrown his lot in there. And you're right. If he, if Logan dies and he's divorced from Shiv, it's a rap. He's getting canned on day one.

won. So he's not, he's actually not in a good spot. I mean, I think the, like, the inevitable, I don't think the show is going to end with the Roy's siblings arm in arm celebrating their collective victory. Like, you know, the reason that they're showing us them working together, I think, in these opening episodes is because a complete, so it can unravel. Destruction of that unity is, is imminent. You know, I think the show is a little too smart to do something as basic as like, this person wins, you know, like, it's not going to be that. It's, It's going to be way more complicated than that. But Tom is definitely not in a good spot.

I thought Shiv was a winner of this episode. I thought she made a move and it worked and the Russian was cut. She made Logan bleed for real. And so I think she's emotionally like, you know, bereft right now. She's completely destroyed by what's going on in her personal life and feeling betrayed by her father. There's a lot going on in the arc of her character. But she made her move. I mean, she was the one who engineered that move.

She kept her brothers in line to keep that move on the train. Like, and she got to say... But the move might not work. What if Madsen just backs out of the deal? It might be the worst move ever. That's why I was asking you guys that question because I just, I still don't really know what she wants. And I thought you, what you, the way you put it, Joanna was right.

She just kind of wanted to kind of make chaos and make it clear that she had some, she could claim some power in this situation. Yeah. But even if the deal blows up, like, is she that upset about that? I honestly don't know. I don't, she didn't seem like a person who was like, I need money. She wanted power to buy Pierce. That's what she wants.

But you need money. They need that money to buy. They need that buy out money to buy Pierce. And like Roman, Roman saying this, Roman laying out the stakes, which are either, you know, we squeeze our dad and get a little extra money or this blows up and he disinherents us entirely. Like, you know, I'm not sure that Logan would ever do that, but Roman are like, those are the potential stakes. And when there's something that Sarah Snook does in this episode with shit, we've seen Shiv be so, like, you know, I don't. generally love this term, but like ball buster, like she will do it. But in this episode, in that karaoke room, when she leans forward and she's like, go get more money from Mattson,

like, that's something I've never seen her do with Shiv and especially like not in the face of Logan. And so I just feel like there's something. And I do, I think you're so right in terms of we're going to look back at the beginning of the season when those three kids were working together in California and be like, that was, those were the good times. Yeah, that was a million years ago. I was just going to mention a couple of the Roman lines. Ketto says, in Buddhism, sometimes your biggest tormentor can become

your best teacher. It's like, hey, Buddha, next top for it. It's unbelievable. Really good. What happens if I kill a Buddhist? Do I become a Buddhist? That slayed me. I like when he got mad at the helicopter lady. He's like, I'm going to set aside several hundred thousand dollars

to destroying your life. And then... I remember that these are not good people. much we like them. No, Roman reminds you five times. Then when Logan comes in at the end for karaoke, want to give us a blast of New York, New York, and fuck off. I enjoyed that one.

I also thought the best quote of the episode was Matt's saying, I've never met anyone I respect to sleeps good. I was like, hmm, I thought that, and that's still in time for high school yearbook season, Sean, the high schoolers out there. Relatable content for me. No.

No, I don't either. Bill, do you sleep well? Yeah, neither to Mallorne. That's why we're doing great. Seeing every movie and TV show because a lot of them are happening at two and three in the morning. Congrats on all of our success and our deep discomfort every night. Thanks for that, Madsen. I had two more really good Roman lines that I liked.

One was like almost uttered under his breath as she was walking out of the door at the beginning of the episode when they're talking about what they're going to do with the network. When he says, nighttime we go full clockwork orange, which I thought is. Yeah. That is great. The other line that I loved was, I think when they were walking out to the helicopter, he says, Dad is a God tomorrow he's selling the company to a 4chan suite and giving out jobs for blowies. I like blowies. I'd never heard that before.

I have a question about the timeline. There's a huge board meeting scheduled for the day of Connor's wedding. Yeah, that was my biggest picky knit was, it's pretty easy to shove this stuff by like a day. A day? It's like, hey, my son's getting married. Can we do this the next day? I mean, it's just Connor. Who cares?

This show's pretty liberal with weddings because it was the same thing with Shiv, right? Kendall pulls the big move on Logan at Shiv's wedding day, basically. Can I shout out my favorite Greg line, which is when he's like recounting what Logan has done before Tom gets there? And he's like he gave one big shout. He doesn't like the countdown to election Kairon, too small. The font is too small, too ingratiating. What's an ingratiating font? I love that so much.

All right. Sean's least favorite part of the pod, prediction time. Just make one prediction for the next episode, Joanna. I mean, I hope Connor gets married. I hope those. It feels like it's the Connor's wedding episode, it feels like. I mean, it's tomorrow. So I hope it's Connor's wedding and I hope that it actually happens. I want that for him. I think we'll start to see the real fissure between Shiv and Kendall now. Now the Roman is moving. I've seen episode three, so I'm not going to guess. That would be really weird if you did. Yeah, that would be weird. done a nice job of not saying anything.

Why isn't, why isn't Jerry invited to go see Madsen? I mean, I guess he's on my list. What happened to Jerry this season? I think they think she's going to go work for Madsen. I think that that was the insinuation when they had the board, when they had the meeting with Hugo and that she was laughing at Kerry. I think he was saying Viking funeral, like you'll be done with me soon. I think the impression was that she would go along with the new,

the new version of Waystar. And I do think the root of that is his embarrassment over, finding out that they were laughing about Carrie, right? Like, that Hugo and Jerry were laughing about Carrie before he walked in and he figured that out. I thought it was predetermined, though. I thought it was like she was... Oh, it might have been, yeah, might have been going to even going back.

She kind of has to go. Oh, interesting. Like, especially if he's going to bring Rome, well, he didn't know he was bringing Roman in at that point. But, I mean, I thought, I thought, like, his, he lashes out, like, he finds out that they were laughing about Carrie when they boot up the laptop.

And then they're like, we want you to go shake his hand. It's a photo opportunity. like, we think this would look good and that would look good. And then he lashes out and accuses Jerry like, oh, you know, Viking funeral, you're already going to like go work for him, something like that. So to me, it felt like the root of that was embarrassment. Because that's when he goes to Tom and is like, tell Carrie, you know, it isn't until people are, he finds out people are laughing at her that he's like, figure out a way to make

this not happen. Do you know what I mean? I forgot to mention this. I think this has been a really weak and unsatisfying season for club Carolina. As Waz named it. Carolina, one of our favorite characters

just kind of got trampled by Carrie and then Fisher Stevens. A lot more Fisher Stevens this year. Get Hugo out of the paint. I need more Carolina. Get Hugo out of the paint. Yeah. Like run her some, come out of the time out and run her a couple plays.

I agree. You just seen her walking a couple of time. That's it. same time, I'm glad she's not the one with Logan because I wouldn't have wanted, I don't, we wouldn't have been able to celebrate that at Cop Carolina. But maybe we'll hear from her in later episodes. Perhaps. Perhaps. I hope so. Upsetting. All right. This episode was produced by Kai Grady. We will be back next week for episode three, come hell or high water. Joanna, Sean, great to see you as always.

Looking for the best place to shop this Mother's Day, go with the brand that makes it easy to send something thoughtful to everyone on your list. 1,800flowers.com. Right now at 1,800 flowers, order one dozen roses and get another dozen free. More flowers mean more smiles, all backed by the quality, attention to detail, and trusted delivery

experience that make 1,800 flowers my top choice to send something beautiful mom will love. Make Mom's Day at 1,800flowers.com slash Spotify. That's 1,800flowers.com slash Spotify. Enjoy more ways to save at Ralph's like low prices in every

aisle. And when you download the Ralph's app, you can clip and save more with digital coupons every week. Plus, you can earn fuel points to save up to $1 per gallon at the pump. At Ralph's, you can enjoy more ways to save and more rewards every time you shop. So it's always easy to save big every day with savings and rewards. Ralph's SoCal for over 150 years, savings may vary by state. Fuel restrictions apply. See site for details.