The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Succession’ Season 4, Episode 4 Recap With Arian Moayed

Episode Date: April 17, 2023

Bill, Sean, and Joanna are back to break down the fourth episode of ‘Succession’ Season 4. They discuss Shiv’s pregnancy reveal, the complicated dynamics that arise when family and business are intertwined, and David Rasche’s hilarious performance as Karl. Along the way, they theorize how this episode might be setting up the rise of Shiv and the fall of Kendall as well as whether or not the found piece of paper works as a storytelling device. Later, Joanna is joined by ‘Succession’ star Arian Moayed to talk about Stewy and Kendall’s longtime friendship, what it’s like to be a part of the show’s ensemble scenes, and much more. Hosts: Bill Simmons, Sean Fennessey, and Joanna Robinson Guest: Arian Moayed Producer: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Sean Fennessey, one of the hosts of the Prestige TV podcast. HBO's Barry is back for a fourth and final season, and that means I'll be back recapping the show with co-creator and star Bill Hader to dive deep on the themes, scenes, and major moments in the series. Bill will provide insight into how every episode was made and why it's ending. New Prestige TV Barry recaps will go live every Sunday night when the episode ends, so make sure you're subscribed to the Prestige TV podcast wherever you get your podcasts. You said this place was steps from the water.

We just haven't found the steps yet. How much did we save? Enough. Enough to get lost. Or you could book a stay with Hilton. Welcome to your oceanfront room. Just steps from the water. The Hilton sale is on now.

Book on Hilton.com or the Hilton app and save up to 20% to get the stay you expected. When you want savings, not surprises. It matters where you stay. Hilton, for the stay. This episode is brought to you by Redfin. You're listening to a podcast, which means you're probably multitasking, maybe even scrolling home listings on Redfin, saving homes without expecting to get them.

But Redfin isn't just built for endless browsing. It's built to help you find and own a home. With agents who close twice as many deals, when you find the one, you've got a real shot at getting it. Get started at Redfin.com. Own the Dream. Succession, episode four, last season, Joanna Robinson is here. Sean Fennessee's here. My name is Bill Simmons. Nothing happened in this episode other than Shiv is pregnant and we have an interim CEO and there's been big family dynamics and most

important. Sean, it was the Carl episode. Carl was cooking. They gave Carl an apron, some utensils. They preheated the oven for him and Carl just cooked. Do you think this was a fond farewell to Carl or do you think this is just a sign of things to come? Is there a Carl spin-off in the works? What do you think is happening here? He's the new Logan. Joanne is Carl the new Logan? What's happening? I mean, this better not be a fond farewell for Carl.

We better get much more of him. He's halfway on a Greek island with his brother-in-law. Like, I need to know how that deal goes, you know? This was, I really love this episode. I loved how Frank and Carl and Jerry, who, you know, Logan has to kind of push them to the side and they have to be obsequious to him, all that stuff. And now it's like, here we go. Now we're getting some real succession stuff happening.

What was your favorite thing, Sean, about this episode? I thought it was the Jeremy Strong Emmy reel. I thought it was like world, world, world class performance. I think there's a couple of other actors who were really, really good in this. But he did the full Ferris wheel of emotions in this episode. It opens with him intensely grieving, unable to sleep overnight. And it closes with him with this malevolent, Bieselbaub moment with Hugo

and it was just a complete range of what Jeremy Strong does and it's very obvious that his castmates find him challenging to work with and that there is a level of pretension that was pointed out even in the aftermath of last week's episode when he used the word dramaturgically in the inside the episode

segment which a lot of people had fun with but I'll take all that stuff a hundred times out of 100 if you get an actor this good who is this perfect for this character so that was my favorite thing about it but you know it was like a menagerie of all the great things about the show because every character was jammed into one room basically for an hour, and it was fantastic.

What do you have, Joe? Yeah, well, this is another Lorraine Skafari episode. She directed Ken's birthday party last year. So, like, if you're going to get everyone in a room, get Lorraine to direct it, I think, is the rule of thumb. And I'm going to stay on brand and say the Shiv and Shiv and Tom stuff was like really, really interesting to me. Like, the pregnancy reveal, Sarah Snook is actually pregnant.

This is like an interesting development off the tail end of. Some of the conversations at the end of last season with her and her mom. Maybe some women aren't meant to be mothers. Something that Caroline said to her at the end of last season. She looks to be, like, given the conversation, she's, like, between four and five months pregnant. And it's been about, I think they said it was like three months between seasons. So this is Tom's kid. We're pretty sure.

And what is she going to do? We're pretty sure. I mean, I don't know. Are we sure whose kid this is? Timeline-wise, I feel pretty sure that it's Tom's baby. Yes. I think so. Shiv not opposed to head down in the town for a night.

There could be an out-of-work off-Broadway actor who had an enchanting evening. You never know. You never know. I'm not really anything at with Shiv. It's more interesting if it's Tom's baby, though, right? And like, I will just speak for my family. The way that the generational stuff has worked, like if you're thinking of having kids,

you have to think about how much your parents might have been ill-equipped to have kids. kids, and then you worry for yourself, am I able to be a parent, a mother or father, whatever it is? And so that has to be running through Shiv's head. Her strange moment with Tom is running through her head. And, like, you know, it seems because she hasn't told anybody. So this is like a huge thing that she has been grappling with, you know, all season as far as we know. And I just, and I thought the moment, you know, we see so many moments with Tom and Greg as they're like, Greg, especially clumsily, like, angling. Tom goes up to Roman. Tom goes up to Ken.

He's like, I'm here to serve. Also, shit feels very disingenuous. The moment with Tom and Shiv on the stairs where he's like, let me show you some kindness, that feels real to me. And again, that stuff remains really interesting to me. Well, on top of everything you just said, Tom, who thinks every door has been shut now in him, which basically part of episode four was just people slamming doors in Tom's face and him realizing slowly, like, I have no chance here.

there's no outcome that's going to work for me. Even Kendall at one point. And Sean made a good point about Kendall's 180 as this episode went along. Even in the middle of the episode when Tom's trying to talk to him and Kendall's just like, you're a good guy, Tom. It just walks away. I like you, Tom. Good luck.

Yeah. I like you, Tom. Good luck. This is now Tom's way in. Yeah. Once he finds out Shiv's pregnant, nobody is going to be happier about the news of my estranged spouse is pregnant than Tom on the show, I would say. because now he's back in the family in a real way.

I would cast just a little bit of doubt on how entirely sincere his pitch to Shiv was on the staircase. I thought part of what made that scene so interesting was it felt like a callback to the ending of the first episode of this season, you know, that bedroom discussion that they had. And part of what I liked about that scene and about this scene is I feel like there's some nuance between this is kind of expeditious for me professionally and also I love this person and there's a lot of bedside.

blood between us and we've transgressed against each other, but also this is a way to keep me in the ATN family. You know, like I think that Tom, everyone is kind of an operator at all times, and that's one of the kind of intriguing parlor games of the rest of this season, is kind of figuring out who's being honest and who's speaking from the heart and versus who is just angling. Even, I mean, I thought Frank was an interesting representation of that in this episode, too, because he is kind of put back in that position we'd seen him with with Kendall, where he has to be this sort of godfather guiding light,

but also he wants a chance to close the deal himself. He wants a little glory now that Logan is gone. And so the show is just so masterful at making you lean one way and then lean another based on like from dialogue to dialogue. I think that's right. And I think like it's so, we're in such an interesting place right now with the show in terms of like this is Logan's wake and a board meeting at the same time.

And this is just like the ongoing thing of like, can you separate the man from the business or the family from the business and stuff like that? So I think you're right that at any given time, any display of emotion is tangled up in business. I would just say, like, in that stair conversation, I would say Tom is more sincere than not. And certainly in comparison to talking to Ken or talking to Roman. Shiv, by the end of this episode, the rug has been pulled out underneath their 19 different ways, right? like now she'll never have a relationship with her dad, which was crumbling for two seasons.

She's pregnant. She hasn't told anyone yet. She's not going to be married anymore. At least it's headed that way. And then the one thing she did have was this alliance with Roman and Kendall, which just falls apart in the span of 10 minutes once there's this piece of paper. And she's the one who's kind of like, wait, is that a crossoff or an underline? And she kind of knows immediately this is bad for me.

And then, you know, the old boys network comes through and who ends up being the big winner, the two boys, the daughter gets kicked to the curb. And everything leads to her tripping down the stairs, which I rewound a couple times. And it really seemed like she took the fall in that one, which if she was pregnant in real life was, I don't know how they did that one. It really did seem like it was her. But that was kind of the rock bottom, right? Yeah, I think I mean, I definitely think she took the fall. I thought it was like a really masterful piece of physical acting because you, when she goes down, your heart. stops for a second. You know, you worry for her and you also are like embarrassed for her. And, you know, that whole sequence when she walks past, I forget the ATN host's name who's talking with Stewie. Ravenhead. Yeah. And she's just so furious. But I don't know. I mean, I think we were talking about this last week, the three of us, about kind of who is best positioned to go forward. And I, I now feel like they're setting us up for the Shiv rise. That feels like This was the lowest we could go.

This was the lowest we could go. And things are really tumultuous. And, you know, we felt for her more than we felt for anyone in this episode. Well, yeah, yeah. If you're rock-bottoming in episode four, like, and we've got six more episodes to go. And so we've got an interview with Ariya Moyed in this episode who plays Stewie. And something he confirmed that's been sort of floating around is this idea that like every episode of the season is one day. We were watching 10 days in a row of this family.

And the first episode of this season, Connor says the election is 10 days out, which means we're ending with an election night finale, which for fans of Shiv, brings us back to season one Shiv, which is politics Shiv, right? And we've been talking about Jared Makin gets mentioned in every episode. In this episode, they're talking about him coming and she's like, I don't want that. She's had a couple lines of season about this election's coming. It's 1933. I want to say, we know she took a call from the Democratic candidate in the first episode.

So, like, the, based on, like, one tidbit that's in this season on trailer that they aired last week where they're talking to Connor, there's this theory that the Connor's sympathy vote, he's at 1% right now. Connor's sympathy vote of your dad died is going to draw enough percentages away from a tightly contested election that, and he would draw probably from the Republican side, that Macon wants him to drop out so that Megan can win. And this, I think, is where Shiv gets involved, right? And if Shiv gets her president elected, at the end of the day, if Romans, fascist loses and and Shiv's candidate wins, we're back in Politics Shiv, which we loved Politics Shiv. So that's very interesting to me as a possibility. And this idea that, like, if there are six days left, like, what could be the events? And there's, like, a couple hints in this episode, there's, like, the burial of Logan Roy. He left, like, his wishes, burial in the city, music, et cetera.

and there's the Gojo annual retreat, right? Like, they love an annual retreat on Succession. So, like, a Gojo annual treat. So I think that's, like, a really interesting potential roadmap for the rest of the season. I don't pretend to know. We haven't seen anything past this episode. We don't know. But, like, a potential roadmap and a potential avenue for Shiv who gets pushed out here

to come back, ascend it in some way or another, you know. Those are some really good theories, but I haven't seen an episode. five yet, but I heard it's an entire episode about Carrie just trying to get back to her small apartment. That's just a hour long. Yeah, the cab driver got lost. Yeah, is the one express or is it after midnight? I'm not sure. She dropped the bag again.

Yeah, it's tough. Wow, this would be an action pack 10 days if it's just 10 days of succession. I'm trying to think if already we've had four episodes and four pretty action packed, this is 96 hours of content. If they can keep that pace pretty impressive. So, Shib being pregnant, I think, is the big one. Kendall, so I'm going to nudge back on your Shiv theory that she's going to be the big winner. Maybe I overthought this watching it, and I watched this episode three times because I was really trying to figure it out.

Could you argue that Logan being dead has now unleashed Kendall, where he's going to be this combination of, in a lot of ways, a worse version of his dad, right? None of his like kind of the charm that when he could have charm when he wanted, but also like his savvy and his just all the things that made him a powerful person. So he has all the worst qualities of that. But also doesn't have the, I'm in the shadow of my dad. I can't do right by this guy. This is the one person who looks down on me at all times and that person is now gone. And I'm kind of the guy.

Chest pumping out a little bit. I wonder if he becomes actually more powerful. than maybe we're prepared for. So it could go one or two ways. Either it's a quick flame out, he can't handle it, and it's a disaster immediately, or maybe he's kind of unleashed.

I don't know. If you had to pick one of those two, what would you say, Sean? I think both can be true. I think them showing us him making the decision to break bad, because that's what that final sequence is with Hugo.

You know, the episode more or less opens with him waking up, going into the office. He overhears Hugo talking to, his daughter and saying, you know, you fuck me with a strap on. And then closing with a callback to that line. And then that's like the turn effectively. That's like his Heisenberg moment is interesting because the way that Kendall has been

presented on the show, and I'm not saying that this character was like this throughout the entirety of his life. But on the show, he was always presenting himself as the ethical counterpart to his dad's demon work. Right. You know, that he was like, I'm still a rank capitalist, but the way I do it is in a more thoughtful, more modern way. And what he's doing there is he's identifying.

This is what my dad would do. So I got to do what my dad would do. Even at Shib's wedding. He didn't feel good about the move was to sneak attack him, which they ended up doing him, but he was nervous about it the whole time. But yes. Now he's like, this is how my dad would do it. And he does it. That indicates to me that he was right all along that a contemporary young leader can't lead that way. And him doing this is him taking his own poison pill. you know, that that's him effectively ruining his chances. I mean, the other thing, and I don't want to sidetrack this conversation,

but the other thing is like, what is the goal of becoming the interim CEO of Waystar Royco right now? I mean, you know, in theory, it's just to close a deal and then move on to the Pierce project. But I think, I assume we all feel like under the surface, there's an expectation that the deal will be blown up or that the kids will want to blow it up or something so that they can ultimately retain their legacy. But I think we should talk about that, too. Well, what about when he stared at the chair, Joanna? When him and Roman are just staring at the dad's chair. Like a throne. And it's empty and they're just kind of looking at it.

To me, it's like, this is all he wanted the whole time. He just wanted to be the CEO of this whole company. And even if he can pretend to be that for six weeks, like you could see, like his whole demeanor changes. By the end of the episode, he's like a different guy. Yeah, but like, is that the guy we want him to be is the question? You know what I mean? Like there's so many lines in this episode where people are like, are you sure this is what you want to do?

You've got stuff cooking. You seem so well. Do you really want back in? There's like this doom. And then like, Shiv calls him out. She's like, you're walking around like you're jonesing. Like this addict behavior from Ken, right? He's got a taste and he's like been clean.

He's been eating, he's been California Ken eating sunflower seeds, right? And now he's like, you know, back on the needle, basically. And like, that can't be good. Sean said poison pill. I wrote poison chalice in my notes. It just seems like this is a doomed decision for him. And for him to say, like, it's what my dad would do. It's exactly what his dad did to him last season when he had Shiv put that statement out,

outlining him as an addict and all this stuff like that. It's one of the worst things that anyone has done to anyone on this show. And he's like, that's what I'm going to do to my dad. And, like, on the one hand, will he win, like, business side, perhaps? But, like, I think it's like the Daeneres Targary and Queen of Ashes or, like, Michael Corleone, like, lose all your humanity and your family in order to be the capo, like, you know, die alone in a chair somewhere and Godfather Three. Like, that's what it feels like is building for Ken unless he can pull out of it. You know what I mean? I 100% agree.

I wasn't saying it was a good thing for Ken that this is all happening. I just think this is fundamentally what he wants. And I was thinking, like, big picture with Jesse Armstrong, all the different things he's trying to do with this show. You know, not just from the elements of creating the characters and the whole world, all that stuff. But ultimately, what is he trying to say? And we've talked about in the past episodes about different kind of rich hierarchy type of situations that he's dipped into that we can tell, like, oh, he did this. Oh, he stole this from Redstone, things like that. maybe one of the things he's trying to say is like when you're passing things down to your kids,

but you're a damaged person, it's a damaged family and all that. And then the kids take over. The kids, instead of trying not to emulate your worst qualities, they end up being a worse version of all of your worst qualities, which that might be where we're headed with Kendall. Like he just might be a way worse, way less charismatic Logan. And that's what the end game is. and they have this whole, you know, the worst possible political candidate gets voted.

And this is like, here we go. This is a new generation of quasi-evil, basically. I think that's really perceptive and definitely a huge part of the purpose of the show. Like, I'm sure you felt this many times, Bill, and Joe, maybe you too. But I'm in a full-blown like, wow, I'm becoming my dad phase of my life. I say things and I stop. And I know many people experience this. But I am feeling it every day.

I say something. And even just the timbre of. my voice. I'm like, who is that? And it happens to everybody. And I think like what your parents give you and then what you choose to do with it is a major part of this story. I do think that there is another strand that is interesting in being examined right now, especially because they're now threading a presidential election and the question of a merger or an acquisition and, you know, kind of race to power, which is that the first part that you just identified is the most relatable part of the show. The second part is this

unrelated part of the show, which is basically we've had the most insane wealth gap rise to mega power billionaires over the last 20 to 25 years. Armstrong's really interested in this, and it has created a class of humanity that is borderline unrecognizable.

And we almost expect the worst actions imaginable from these people. And the show has made this effort to get into the psychology of how you get there and then what you do to stay there. And you put those two things together. You put this really human, really complicated personal experience of being in a family, having siblings, trying to please your father. These are all like very universal experiences against the most extraordinary circumstance, the most high-stakes circumstance, the most money, the most power.

The fate of the world, honestly, if you think about it with presidential elections and, you know, billionaire stock price movement, then it's like it's this amazing friction. point of the absurd and the real that is part of, like, that ultimately is what makes the show so special to me in addition to the performances and the writing. Just that big idea of colliding something so obvious and so true to something that is like untouchable for us. You know, it's almost like fantasy land. I think also, you know, given Jesse Armstrong's history with like the shows that he's made in the past, this idea of suckering you into a story with humor, like incredible humor, getting us to laugh along with these people. I mean, getting us to sympathize, empathize a moat with them, but getting us to laugh along with them to maybe really hit us in the face

at the end of this all with what we've been laughing along with or following. You know what I mean? Because we think about the, we mock these billionaires. We mock the Elon Musk's or like whatever, but the actual real damage, are we taking that seriously enough? I don't know how serious succession wants to go in the end. Or if they just want to sort of like lace, you know, the spoonful of sugar with the medicine as we like go along. I don't know how much of a hard turn it's going to take. I doubt it's going to be like that shocking.

But I think you're absolutely right, Sean, and you two, Bill, that like there is something really important that the show is trying to say, even as it is one of the more commercial entertaining things that is on television. Yeah, especially when you think about the concept of a family dynasty, which we see in real We've seen sports all the time. The son takes over from the dad. And, you know, as Sean can attest as a Knicks fan, 80% of the time, it's a fucking disaster. And the person is not qualified to run anything, much less the sports team.

But the reason he got the chance is because, or she got the chance, there's been some she's lately, too. The reason they got the chance was because their dad gave it to them. And if you're a fan of the team, you're like, cool. went from having this really shrewd, you know, powerful, a little bit ruthless of a person running my team to his loser's son, who took seven years to graduate college or whatever. And this is now the person running my team. And that's kind of what's going to happen to Wastar it feels like with Kendall. I mean, probably.

And there's a version of this story where they fuck up the company and they fuck up the election and everything Logan built is gone in less than 10 days. Do you know what I mean? like, what's your legacy if this is how you decide to hand it off? Or President Connor Roy fixes everything. Like, he just, he's late surge. They're taking their honeymoon trip through the swing states. So, you know, we'll see how it goes.

New House? 63 million? It was a steal? Wow. Yeah. Let's go through some of the plots of episode four. Just the initial part of figuring out the interim CEO, where we have a little Jerry versus Carl.

They're so good at writing those things where everybody's pleasant, but at the same time, Carl's going, don't push me out of the plane so fast, Jair. And then Tom comes in. Guess you've already had your turn at the wheel, dear. Like, every minute, Carl,

that's the worst. It's so polite and mean. And then Tom comes in, and you're like, oh, are they going to do it? Are they going to cut his legs out? And Carl, the MVP of this episode, he goes, Tom,

Tom suggests himself as a possible CEO candidate. And Carl goes, well, the negative case would go, you're a clumsy interloper and no one trusts you. The only guy pulling for you is dead. And now you're only married to the ex-boss's daughter. And she doesn't even like you. And you are fair and squarely fucked. That's how that would go.

And Tom's face, Tom has the best, oh my God, I just got my soul pulled out of my body faces. I think that actor is just like, wow. So anyway, we have that. we have defined a piece of paper in Logan's safe. Just as an aside, Joanna, you like this whole piece of paper in the safe? Did this ring right to you as from a factual standpoint? Like, would this actually be something that, did this seem like too fishy to you?

And your time working as the executor of a billionaire's estate? Is this something that you encounter? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, I think they do a good job of undercutting it by having Jerry constantly say, like, this doesn't matter. It's not legal. This doesn't matter.

This doesn't matter. do you know what I mean? So they're not like making the paper into some sort of legally binding document, which makes it all the more powerful. I would maybe be a little less comfortable with the paper twist. We're not for the genius of the underline slash strike through. And the fact that Ken is going to have that on his phone for the rest of his life to zoom in on, did my dad underline my name or did he strike my name out?

That is genius. A little visual, like stab at. Ken every single time he looks at it. And I love the moments when in this episode, well, Stew says it and Frank says it of like, you know, did my dad want me to do this? Sometimes, you know, sometimes he did Ken, right? And like, that's forever going to be what Logan, like the doubt that Logan is going to leave in his kids' minds for the right, you know, he made me hate him. And then he died is what Ken says. And this is like goes to our point last because there's never going to be closure or resolution for these kids because of how this all went down.

I do. My nitpick, Sean, is that it just feels like that paper is pretty easy to overturn. And my guess is that they were afraid it would tank the stock price if there's all of a sudden a legal fight about what did that piece of paper mean. But it really seemed flimsy to me. I don't understand why it wasn't more definitive. why people as smart as Carl and Jerry and Frank were just like, oh, well, there's this weird piece of paper we found, so that's it. Well, I thought it was definitely a convenient bit of storytelling and an unusual, like,

oh, look what we found here kind of moment. It felt like it was out of a mystery show and not succession. But what I think, I think it works because it's not the piece of paper that ratifies the decision. The piece of paper is merely the inspiration for Kendall pursuing the strategy. that he has always frankly been good at. He has always understood the right business strategy. He's just always failed to execute on it because of a lack of confidence

or a lack of kind of emotional clarity. But it's not like the piece of paper confirmed that he was the guy who was going to take over. What it did was it got his mind turning. And then it led to him having a conversation with his siblings. And it led to Roman realizing that this actually made sense.

And it led to him having a conversation with Stewie to get behind Kendall. And so it just kind of says, the wheels in motion rather than officially confirming that this is what Logan wanted and if it went to a court of law. And I think basically once they all got in the room together, Jerry, Carl, and

Frank were effectively overwhelmed because their case was good. I mean, it was the right move. It is the move that you would expect in the aftermath of a death of like Logan Roy's. Even at, the one thing that kind of hold you back is the one thing that Carl notes, which is of course like Kendall went

after his father very publicly and attempted to bring him down. But also, we know, this from observing the Sumner Redstones and the Murdox of the world, like, these kind of blood feuds, like, move in and out pretty quickly among family members in these really high-stakes situations. So the ringers cite that, too, I think. Yeah, well, I was going to mention earlier, though. You and Chris, I mean, shit, the stuff that's happened with you guys. I promise not to have a board meeting at your wake. I just want you to know that right now. Thanks, Sean. Like the next day, but like not. Yeah, yeah. Two days later, you know, we'll go to

Tuddy. Sean, you're speculating in a comic mode. in a humorous vein. No, but I think Shone's right there's like this coalition that Ken builds, right, with like the Sandys and Stewie. And something that they established two episodes ago, I think is if like the Sandy's and Stewie are aligned with the kids, they have enough power to block anything on the board. Those number of seats means they can block anything.

And so when he gets Frank on board, which he does, like pulls Frank aside and gets Frank on board, Jerry makes one like last dish attempt to put herself forward in that little closed-door meeting and Roman swats her down. And then she kind of backs off. So, yeah, it's not the name on the paper, though the name on the paper gives Carolina and Hugo

a story for their spin. It's Ken building coalitions, which is a what he's always done. I liked when you were joking that it could fall in the toilet. And Jerry's like, yes, that's a very funny joke. Like just all that stuff thought that was great. Great scene with them telling the kids about Kendall's CEO possibility.

And from him, he goes, Kenny, you tried to put him in jail like 12 times? And the kids turn on each other. It's like, oh, here we go. That lasted three episodes. And then fucking Greg walks in. Here's a little bit and it's like, maybe it's the natural conclusion that I'm the number two.

And Frank just laughs in his face. Leading to Joanna, an awesome little moment with you. Frank and Ken. The Frank Ken relationship has been over and over again in these seasons. Like they have these moments and Frank just has that great old guy, kind of lovable. I'm on your side where it's like, he was an old bastard and he loved you. Like he just, and the way Kendall played that scene, I really love that like 90 seconds. I thought it was great. Yeah, their relationship, again, and to look at these relationships and

who has genuine connections with people and who doesn't. You know, like, Ken has a genuine connection with Stewie in this episode. Yeah. You know, Tom is trying to reach out to Shiv. Shiv, like, you know, pretty solidly blocks that attempt. And so it's like, Ken, who seems so isolated, who to Sean's point starts this episode, depths of despair alone in his bathroom. We see all the kids alone at the beginning of the episode, but he looks the most alone

out of any of them in that moment. But, like, yeah, he has this skill. Roman is the more gregarious charismatic relationship builder, has a relationship with Madsen, et cetera, et cetera. But Ken does have this genuine connection with certain people, which is really interesting, you know, versus Roman being like, I'm out on Jerry. I'm not, you know, I'm not back in Jerbert. Like, it's not happening. So it was really interesting. Well, and then speaking of connections, Marcia and Colin the Grim Reaper feels like something's brewing there.

He might have a new job. I was worried about him. I thought he would have to become a bartender or something. But, you know, Marsha kind of looked over to him for some help with Crazy Carrie. And maybe this is Collins' destiny. I found that sequence with Carrie absolutely heartbreaking. My heart broke like five times in this episode, you know? I mean, what she was muttering to herself, which was barely audible about he wanted to make it public and we were going to get engaged.

And, you know, the way that Roman responded to her, it was just, it was like the, the same. series of vulnerable revelations about all the key characters in this episode. You know, we see Shiv, obviously, learning the news about getting pregnant. We see Kendall go through the stages of grief and then trying to kind of rise out of that. And Roman showing like human decency towards Kerry, you know, do I have your number? Can you send it to me? You know, like he wanted to help her. He wanted to make her feel better in that situation. And Marsha, you know, was really wielding the blade from the very beginning of the episode, you know, right from that conversation she has. with Kendall, you know, where she, I guess, is just lying about the intimacy that she has been sharing with Logan over the last few months.

You don't think they spoke intimately every evening? I don't. Honestly, an incredible Marsha come back. Like, incredible. Came in throwing heat. Full of shit the whole time. Yep. She closed the $63 million deal.

I think, I think the, another key, there's something really interesting going on with Greg this season, honestly. And I don't, there's some meta stuff we can talk to or not about Nick Braun and stuff like that. But they're like, what is clear is that the writers are writing a story where every single person hates Greg. Kind of including Tom, who has like professes love for, but every time Tom will talk to Greg. But anytime Greg says literally anything back to Tom, he's like, shut the fuck up. What are you saying? This is disgusting. Wait, so you're saying like the meta standpoint of like him saying maybe I'm the number two?

and everybody shits on him. Like the writers are actually trying to make a point to Nick Braun. You're not part of the inner circle of this show. Fuckface. It's like every interaction with Greg. And like the way that the absolutely shameless, sad, pathetic way he tries to ingrati himself with Marsha in that scene with Carrie. Oh, look away.

Oh, this is so shit. You know, like all this sort of stuff. Like he's, it's just a piece of shit this season. You know what I mean? So right one from everyone's like favorite mascot to like, what is this? He still, I still get a huge kick out of him though. When he walked into the room with the three siblings and he said, my guys, my lovely guys. I disagree with you two on one thing.

I thought Carrie would, I was so glad to see Carrie hit rock bottom. I just couldn't stand that character. I felt no sadness for her at all. She played an 84-year-old man like a freaking violin. She was super mean to everybody. she was super mean in the previous episode to Greg, and she was going to leverage whatever weird things she had going with Logan, who was basically half deranged in season four,

and she was going to leverage it and try to extract as much as she could, and it all backfired in her face, and that was it. And I don't know. I just, I mean, she was trying to get a job on ATN. She was trying to get a nighttime news job from this crazy old guy. But like everyone. sucks. That's kind of the thing with the show. Yeah, fair. You know, like, I'm not

really rooting against anyone, even though I know that they're all horrible people. And so, like, I think that's like, that's the other superpower of the show, right? It's like, you get empathy for people that you know or are dishonest or Sean, I'm calling you a taxi. You can go home to your little. Okay. All right. All right.

It's ridiculous. And by the way, Marsha and Logan were close. It was just complicated, but they spoke intimately every evening. Every morning and every afternoon and every evening. You guys are team Marsha? Is that what you're saying? You think Marsha she has the way? No, I think Marsha might be the biggest monster on this show, like deep down.

Like she's, everything is transactional with her. Every single moment. I did feel like in season one, it did seem like she genuinely cared about Logan. But whatever, but obviously as we see these last three seasons, like the answer is obviously not. Well, I wanted to ask Joe about this specifically. The moment after, you know, the announcement is made that it's going to be Logan and Kenner. and Shiv storms out of the room and then she comes down the staircase

and then there's this moment where she crosses paths with Marsha which felt to me like an overt like this is your fate now you're one of these people you're not one of the power people you are the supplicant to power you're the wife you're the sideline person

I assume that that's what they were trying to say what did you think about that Joanna? Kind of and then also a call back to their very memorable encounter on a staircase like right before her wedding felt like that moment too would she call her a little horror something like that.

She said something like super mean to her. Very tough. And I think that like the Marsha stuff is so fascinating. Because I think we talked about this last week, if I recall, she knows what Ken did. Right. So just Colin. Colin and Marsha forming a little. And the sun.

Where's the sun at the wake? He couldn't have flown in? What was he doing? Whether or not he comes back, I don't know. But like those Colin and Marsha are two people. who know what Ken did. And if Ken is in the poll position at the company right now, and I don't know what the state of Marcia's, like, shares are

or her voting power is, you know, in all of this. I am glad you brought up what Kendall did. We have not seen any of the rest of the screeners. We have no idea what's going to happen. We know basically what the structure of these last sex episodes is. That's it. I still feel like that skeleton comes back to get them. and it's the one thing that can be used against him in a real way,

and we know that multiple people know, right? So if he tries to fuck over Marsha in any way, she knows, so does the son, and so does Colin. And all it takes is for one of those three to tell one other person, and Kendall's fucked. So part of me wonder is, does he ride high in episode five, where it's like, I'm the man, this is finally happening, and then that skeleton comes back and gets them.

Well, do you think that that means that the siblings will not turn on him? Because that's the thing is like if Roman and Shiv really... He told the siblings last season, right? Yeah. That's, I mean, that is really the thing. Because, like, I don't think Colin is going to try to take Kendall down. That just seems unlikely. No, but maybe Shiv would, though.

But Shiv could. Like, if it gets to a point where we do find them having this three-way standoff for power, that's a card that one of them can play. It's going to have to get really bad before. they go there. That would be devastating, you know, yeah. I'm actually surprised Shiv didn't play that card even during this wake because she was, she was pretty.

Teetri. By the end of this episode, I wonder like, hey, Kendall, can we talk for one second? I mean, I think we need to ramp up to something like that. And I think the start, the beginning of like, is that underlined or is it crossed out, which is going to haunt him for the rest of his life and him saying, well, it's sure his shit doesn't say Shiv, you know? And it's just like all the sudden, you know, this this detente that they've had that has been working is, you know, all this kids. A couple other things from this episode.

We had Tom making his play with Roman, who he's like, we both know Logan only want to one person take over. And Romo just starts doing the tightrope Tommy, right in his little subtle cycle across Niagara Falls and just like just destroys him. Wimwomwom. I like he called him Tom Wom. Should we start calling him Tom Wob? Tom Wom. Loving up his lips to kiss my butt. Yeah.

When the siblings had it out, Kendall, who every episode has one hilarious Kendall line, that's unintentionally hilarious, but he was like talking about him taking over. He's like, the plays with the board. Same old, but with a viby new banner. Like, how do you even write lines like that for a human being? Like, who else in the world in the history of television would say lines like that or some of the other shit, he's said. The one thing they did in this episode is they managed to let him have lines like that

that are also like emotionally deep. Like in a similar conversation, when he's talking with Stewie, he's like, we can't live in a haunted house. I have plans with the Sibbs. I'm twin track. I'm dead, but I'm alive. What are we going to do, sit in the dark and drink Lefroid? Like, that's weirdly poetic, but also weird Kendall business speak.

You know, like he's on Twitter, but also he, you know, has his MBA, which is kind of what that the vibe of that that dialogue that he usually has. But when it's sincere, I'm Twin Track. I'm dead, but I'm alive. I don't know. It's radiant. It's great. And the stuff with Roman, too, talking about like pre-graving.

You know what I mean? Like, you know, and he's like, and then Kendall's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't believe you. That's great. It's great. I don't believe you. Or talking about his grief guy. Yeah, I've got the best grief guy. You're going to crush this.

She said she need to wet my beak. Wet My Beak is having a big resurgence in movies and TV shows right now. I hate it. So we have... You think it's a gross phrase? I just don't like it. It's a Godfather. Yeah.

Every time. Yeah. No, no, I know. But like, I just, it gives me the hebie-jeebies, that phrase. So we have a Ken and Roman telling the group and Stewie their whole plan. And Carl pushed him back super hard. And we didn't really talk about Carl quite enough in this Because Carl, to me, for the most part,

has been a side character, board member, but never really totally got a feel for where he was playing. But it really did feel like he was trying to make a play for the top seat. Maybe I'm blanking, was there an episode or a moment in one of the previous seasons where Carl made a play for anything? I always felt like he was just kind of a loyal to Logan getting kicked around. He was bore on the floor. He was one of the guys on the floor.

Well, when they were talking last season, you know, when it was like, is it going to be Shiv? Is it going to be Jerry? Carl put himself forward. They were on the plane. Carl put himself forward. And Logan's like, he's like, what does he say? It's like a great line about like, if your hands are clean, it's only because like the sex workers, like, offer soap at the end or something. You know, like Carl's whole, like, hoaring reputation that follows him around.

I just want to say that, like, when Sean and I recorded last season, you know, I recorded last season, in, there is a sequence between Frank and Carl and the plane where they were talking about all the shit that they've survived, like all the scandals that they've survived. And in that moment, I never forgot. Sean was like, these are my two favorite characters on the show. Like, I don't know if it was just in that moment. Frank and Carl, you're just like, I love these guys so much.

They're perfect. They're survivors. They're survivors. But like, they're not, I think the show has always been really good at making it clear why they can't be the guy, why they can't be the person. And they're never going to be elevated to be the person. But I definitely agree with you, Bill, that Carl, you know, it's like the Wolverine found his claws in this one. He was like, you know what?

It's time. It's finally time to start slashing everybody's throat and to get mine. And if I don't, then I'm going to get my package because I'm halfway in on this Greek island. With my brother-in-law. And I think it's important to the counter of Ken building a solid coalition. What happens in that sort of China Cabinet meeting that they have, right, is that Carolina's backing. Jerry and Frank is backing Carl so they can't form a sizable coalition because they're two and then Tom is eating fish tacos and out for himself, you know what I mean? So they can't

form a sizable coalition because they're too fractured on their side, which has always been the problem with the siblings, you know what I mean? But this time they, you know, by teeth and nail, like get it together, you know. Quick Child of the 80s thing on Carl, played by David Rash. Rashie. Because his name was in a great Miami Vice episode, Shito. A big Castillo episode in 1985. Then was on sledgehammer, which was this kind of crazy, like naked gun on steroids kind of show where he played a cop. And it was like a spoof show, but the guy was violent. And the show kind of bombed. And then from that point on, anytime I saw him in anything, I was like, oh, the sledgehammer guy. And then,

didn't even realize he was Carl. I knew that guy for a while, but then, you know, 35, 40 years later, but he really was like one of those guys. And the fact, this is what Wesley was on my podcast on Tuesday talking about how incredible the show is from top to bottom, just the actors, right? Which is, we've talked about this before,

but he was like, this is one of the things that really stands out to me is like there's no weak performance. Like, just getting a great performance out of the guy from Sledgehammer is kind of crazy. But he did in 2008 and 2009. He's in two movies. He's in Burn After Reading, the Cohn Brothers movie, and he's in The Loop, the Armando Eianucci movie, which is co-written by Jesse Armstrong.

Yeah. And that is like the signal, the performances in both of those movies are the like audition for Carl in many ways. It's very similar kind of performances. And he's so funny. And I also, I think like Rashi, Peter Friedman, Friedman, Jay Smith, Cameron, and these are all like New York theater people too. Like they've been working in the theater scene for a long time.

So there's there's so many theater people in this show. It's like Law & Order, because Law & Order is just in New York. They have nothing but theater people and it's great. Snoring, gasping during sleep, feeling fatigue, ask your doctor about Zepbound, terseptite. The first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and adults with obesity. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and obesity to improve their OSA. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligram injection.

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you can go see the game live. Don't just dream about the trip. Book it with Priceline. Download the Priceline app or visit Priceline.com. Actual prices may vary. Limited time offer. Two more people who got to cook in this episode. Carolina, Hugo.

It's a big Hugo episode. Been a big Hugo season. Hugo wasn't in my fantasy draft, but it turned out he got some big play. And then Carolina is just back and kind of running things a little bit. Roman called it. Operation shit on dad was one of their suggestions.

And then he said, considering dad has died, maybe we shouldn't shit on dad. But watching them try to lay out a whole comms plan for this was a fun wrinkle. Because this is what happens. You end up having these two people who all their job is to think about how stuff will be perceived by the media, by the general public. And they end up taking this outsized level of importance. Like they're deciding the future of the family, Logan's legacy all that. these things. And it's like fucking Hugo and Carolina, who we hadn't even seen for three episodes. But I thought that part was really good, too. I loved the description of there's Operation Embalm Lenin

or There's Another Way, which is this great reference to what they did when Lenin dies, which is they immediately embalmed him and just let his body sit out for four days to sort of be observed and celebrated and live on as this totem of ideal execution. It's like a really weird reference that the show made. but and doing it in such passing fashion was great. Hugo, I was down on Hugo at the beginning of the season. I was like, this is not the guy I want to be spending time with. I thought they nailed it. It was great.

They totally made sense of making him a critical figure by having Kendall now have leverage over him. So I thought it was brilliant. I don't know why he came to Ken though. Like we, you know, like Ken overhearing him in the lobby was one thing, but him to going to Ken, saying what happened, not even asking Ken for anything, you know, and then Ken just going like, okay, you know, like nothing is resolved. he just then has dirt he can use on Hugo by the end of the episode. That was the only moment where I was like,

what about his relationship with Ken makes me feel like he would go to Ken in that moment, you know? Fair. That's a good question. I don't know who would have been the right person to go to. Oscar Winner Fisher Stevens, though, you know? That's right. One revelation from this episode, and I don't know if Tom was how much he was making up,

because he definitely made up the Carl part at the same, but when he said Logan died fishing his iPhone from a clogged toilet, that actually seemed like what might have happened, right? And then he said it was Carl. But I felt like Tom said that because he was just trying to undercut Carl to Greg. But then he said he was a man who died wearing his compression socks so he could look hot for carry. You refused to wear his compression socks. He could look hot for carry.

Sean, what does that do to your mile high theory? You know, when we watched it last week, I missed the explanation that, you know, the door had been locked and that they had to break the door down. So, but I still think it's possible that he was put into an excited state by Carrie regardless. So I still think it's plausible that, you know, she really got his motor running. She rumm and shim possibly took the wish in. Correct. Now she's going back to her little apartment. We get to have Connor and Willa live in that giant, giant fucking, what is that?

Is it? Townhouse? A building? Yeah, that's the best. Yeah. Absolutely. I didn't know who this. That's awesome.

We had a Shiv calling it Coronation Demolation Derby, which I liked. We had, where's Carrie? She's inside a trunk inside an anaconda. They made fun of Colin for wearing jeans, which I loved. Roman said he's like a dog without a person. He doesn't know what to do with his arms. Who did they call the spooky embryo? Oh, Jared Mankin

That he said that Logan called him the spooky embryo We had Stewie say my pubs got a little singe The last time I went with you Which I loved The kids being stunned that Logan did Sudoku And then Roman describing Why I couldn't be all three

With two is like fucking And three is an orgy for hippies The show had some good one-liners I love Peter Munion's condolences This is rum luck And a thumb in the eye for all of us Yeah, when Conner's making in front of you, you're not in a great place. So I would say the big loser is Greg, because he has no allies, right?

It's over for him. I guess my theory that Greg was going to somehow become the big winner of the show unless his uncle can save him last minute. He's a doodle. He's a doodle, says Jerry. You're nothing. Tom seems like he. should be a loser, but he doesn't realize that he might have this golden lottery ticket with

Shiv's baby if he's the father, which we're 98% sure he is. They had sex right at the end of last season. Yeah. That's when she said. They had an open marriage, Joanna. I'm not going to judge, but an open marriage. You are not wrong. You want Shiv and Tom together?

Is that what you're saying, Joe? You really want them to make it work? She loves Shiv and Tom. Joe is like all in on Shiven Tom as as first. for the long haul, long-range bet. I want people to make emotional connections and not be floating out in space without anyone caring about them.

Oh my God. Well, you're watching the wrong show. But it has to, I feel like, it has to happen for some of them to underline the way in which the others have completely failed at it. Do you know what I mean? So I'm not saying it's going to be sunshine and rainbows and everyone gets a happy ending. I'm just going to say some people are going to have to make the right decision to let us understand that some people

have made the wrong decision. That's how I think the show goes. I think they're going to great parents. I think if you just look at how Mondale has been treated of just being in a dark room with a fence around him at 9 o'clock a night. You can't change me. I'm going to be on my SHIV agenda for the rest of the season. It's just the bargain you're saying. I'll never shift the way shiv treated Mondale. I'll never get over. All right. It's time. Predictions. Episode five, Sean's least favorite part of the podcast. What do you got, Sean? I really don't know. I think that they played out a lot of the beats that I expected to see this season.

I expected to see Logan die and I expected to see Kendall Breakbad. Those were two things that I felt like the show kind of needed to get to, dramaturgically speaking. And they did. And so now part of, obviously there's an election coming up. I wonder if we'll see Jared Mankin in this next episode. You know, they teased us with him coming in, but he didn't ultimately make an appearance. Yeah. And I could see a world in which we get a little bit of the political operation in the next episode.

Beyond that, I don't know, at what point does their mom come back into the mix? You know, we know she's going to return. Yeah. But beyond that, like you said, I'm not good at this. I don't really know what's coming next. What do you think, Joanna? It's hard to say. Well, first of all, I want to hit my winners because I have an answer prepared this week.

Are we going to do this or is it just predictions time? Oh, no. Do your winners. I have three categories, okay? Performance-wise, it's a dead heat for me between Jeremy Strong and Sarah Snook. Sarah, like, she was responsive. That was a while ago, wasn't it? When Tom was, like, trying to remind her of the beginning of their courtship, like, that crushed me.

Amazing, yeah. Emotional health-wise, Connor and Willa, okay? Like, when Willa gets a digging on Marcia, Willa who's just taken shit the entire show, and when Marcia says, look how far you've come, and Willa says, both of us. A W. A W. A weird dub for Willa.

Okay? Love that. Okay? And then power money-wise, it has to be Marcia. I mean, Marcia is just fucking monster in this episode.

She's just like, back from Milan better than ever. Well, wait. And comedy MVP has to be Carl. Yes, of course. Carl, Carl ripping Tom to Shreds was one of the highlights

of the season for me so far. 10 out of 10. For predictions, I don't know if it's too soon to go to the Gojo annual retreat, But they're getting on a plane and going to Europe at some point, and that's probably where they're going to see Caroline. We need the funeral, though.

So when's the funeral? Is that the day after the wake? When does that happen? It depends how long they embalm him for. I don't know when they're doing the burial. But I feel like we need a reprieve from sadness and grief. So like a jaunt over to Europe for Alexander Sarsgaard to be, you know, completely gonzo. And, you know, while they're there seeing their mom and Munion perhaps, like that sounds like a job.

treat to me. So that's what I'm hoping for. Well, the funeral episode has to happen. So that's maybe episode six, if Joanna's one day at a time theory is correct. Are we positive? That's correct? Confirmed. Multiple people have said it in interviews at this point. Okay, confirmed. They're not red herring us. Nothing. We actually believe this is what's happening. I just don't know why they would lie about, you know, people lie all the time to protect spoilers, but I don't know why they would lie about the format of the show. Okay. So Logan's funeral. that brings the mom back, right? So that's episode six or seven.

They need some sort. So next episode will be some sort of transition. Episode five will be something that gets them, as Joanna said, away from the grief and sadness, but it has to get them somewhere doing something. Maybe that's a Europe trip. Well, we know from, yeah, we know from the call with Oscar, who sounded suspiciously like Sebastian Corka, the former Donald Trump attache, that I don't know if anybody picked up on that.

That was really weird. Because of that, we know that there's an urgency to close that deal from the mats inside. The one thing is like, can they really fly to Sweden and close a deal in one day and then get back in time for a funeral? That feels like a big stretch. You know, Sweden travel is not quick. As somebody who's flown to Sweden, it's not New York to Boston. I'll tell you that much. How long, like it's, well, they're in New York.

It's like 11, 12 hours. It's really far. I thought it was 11, 12 hours from here. Yes, from here. The private plane, it's probably eight. New York Sweden's eight. Okay. Red eye?

Could be. That's got to be quite 24 hours. Wouldn't want to be at my dad's funeral. I don't know. Flying back on a red eye from Sweden. I mean, they got from California to New York, did Conner's like bachelor party, did Connor's wedding, their dad died, did the wake, did the board meeting.

Yeah, this is not a show that thinks we're counting the hours. This show has Michael Mann's LA geography problem, you know, or it's like, so you got from downtown to Malibu in 22 minutes. How did you do that? I was going to say final season of Thrones, time travel, speed. Also, they've done a lot of great work on planes on this show, so like there could be a whole plane episode. You know what I mean?

Like everyone's on the private jet. Oh, a private jet episode. And then they fly back. Yeah, because then you got everybody trapped and people walking around and some wheelings. dealing. Yeah, that could be a good one. I like that. When are we doing our private jet episode where we record a series of podcasts on private jets bill? That would be great. For the succession finale? Can we get that sponsored by somebody? I asked my only random prediction, and I don't know what

episode it is, but I sniffed out the Roman and what's the guy's name, the political candidate. There was that sexual tension with them and they hinted at it in the trailer too. And I'm just prepared for anything with that plot. Great. I don't know when that happens. I mean, if he's off Jerry, then, you know, it's on the table for sure. Well, basically, from what we've seen with Roman sexually, he jerked off on his office window. He had a weird relationship with an escort that had already given oral sex to Tom, who he just

didn't have sex with, and she complained about it openly. And repeatedly, he had that weird psycho, whatever the hell. thing was going on with Jerry. And that's it. I think it's all on the table. I think it's all fluid. Yes. And then Shiv has to tell Tom at some point about the baby.

Because once you get to like past 20 weeks, you're not hiding a pregnancy anymore. It's not happening. So that has to happen. I think and what's interesting, I don't know, I need, I need some time to process this of like what I want the ending. I mean, if it's only the next. days. We won't have like a full resolution on that. But like, is the story for Shiv. Shiv becomes a mom and breaks the shitty toxic generational cycle of whatever. So aspirational. Come on, Joanna. You think that's where they're going? They're breaking the toxic

cycle. That's, well, that's my issue, Sean, is I'm like, I don't know that I want like, Shiv as a mom. That's her happy ending sort of thing. It's great to be a mom. But like, they won't do that. The show is way too cynical. And she won't be happy as a mom or taking care of other human beings. It's not happening. Just ask Mondale as he waits for a treat or a pat in the head. Her relationship with her mom is completely damaged. She's not ready to mother. It's a thing.

It's a thematic throughline that they'll follow. And then I think it's really interesting because like oftentimes when an actress gets pregnant and they write it into the storyline, it feels like shoved in there and ham-fisted. This is a really interesting development for Shiv and one that they've laid track for. And so

I'm really interested to see where they take it. Yeah. I need to confess something to both of you. Because Joanna was like, no, no, this is what they said in multiple interviews. I don't read the interviews for shows like this because I always feel, I just don't want to know anything. I want to experience everything as I'm watching it. Every time I read one of those, anythings, I'm always like, oh, what did that mean? Why did he say this? And I fucking go crazy. So I haven't really read anything. The only thing I've watched are that after the episode stuff. and even there it feels like there's stuff in there.

I wish I hadn't seen that. But the thing I hate the most is when Sarah snuck in real life when she talks and has an Australian accent, it's the all-time. Wait, what? Why? Why is your voice like that? I just know her a shiv.

And then all of a sudden she sounds like Crocodile Dundee, and it's like, what's happening? Anyway, that's my tangent. The thing about the timeline is I don't think they're trying to hide it. Like if you You did call shot. I think if you know it's if you know it's there,

they have been like, it's 10 days till the election. He could be president next week. Like we know it's just been a matter of days already so far. I don't think they're trying to hide it, but they're not like broadcasting it. They're not like in the final season of successions.

10 days in the life of the local, you know, but like. Maybe they should. I don't know. It's a pretty good gimmick. We got five days left, literally. Succession. This is a show they probably.

our native provo like that, I would guess. Can I just cite one more line that I thought was really important and I think we'll have some ramifications on the end of the season? We didn't cite Connor observing Stephen Root's speech about Logan. Yes. And when he said, can you believe this shit? He's trying to make Dad into a neo-conservative. Dad wasn't a neocon.

He was a paleo-libertarian. He was practically an anarcho-capitalist. The rewrite history. And he said the next 48 hours are going to be crucial. That's what he says right after that. That's right. That's how we know where we're going. I'm so excited for the politics to come back.

I love that Stephen Root was in this episode. I'm excited for Justin Kirk to come back. That conventional, that convention scrum thing that we saw last season was so fun. So, yeah, I'm really excited for that. We wanted that as a Hall of Fame episode. But at your wake, Bill, that is something I will do, is I will characterize your legacy that strongly. I will be like, Bill was the voice of a generation of neo-conservative basketball, That's what I will say.

And now he's rolling pods in heaven. You know what I mean? Sean keeps mentioning my wake. This show makes just Sean think about the day I die. And he gets to talk about me. I can't fight back. I'm just getting some revenge for you saying that you're going to die after me on the last episode.

That's all. I just said it's in play. I don't think I have a chance. It is. And you're probably living a healthier lifestyle than I am. So it's in play. Please outline what you want for your wake. Otherwise, we're going to do past hors d'oeuvres and it's going to be fish tacos.

and I don't think you want that at your wake. So let us know what you want. Just tell Colin to wear a real pants instead of jeans. Seriously. So disrespectful. Have some respect. All right. This podcast was produced by Kai Grady.

And we will be back a week from now after episode five. God only knows what's going to happen. None of us have any idea. Last thing, Joanna, who do we have an interview with? Yeah, Ari and Moyette, who plays Stewie is here to talk about like Stewie's very fashionable appearance here at. Logan Roy's wake. So let's hear from him.

Can I actually listen to this? Or are there going to be some tidbits that I'm going to be mad that I feel like it steered me to some thought process for episode five? I just got him to confirm the one day at a time thing, which I had been floating around and I got him to confirm it. That's it. All right. I'm going to break my rule and listen to this. It's coming up next. So I heard that before the season started, Jesse Armstrong had gathered you all together, I think, the end of last summer, to let you know with the rough shape of the

season would be, and also that it might be the last season. And I'm curious, now that you can finally say, and he told us Logan Roy was no longer going to be in the show, Brian Cox is leaving episode three, how did it land with you? How did it land with everyone? Well, we knew it was serious because, not serious, we knew that he wanted to tell us some stuff about the season, because it was all of us on a Zoom call, and it was, and it's very measured, and like, and he had, And he wanted to give us the arc of the season. And we kind of always knew that the show was not going to last forever. And what did you think of the decision to have Logan die so early?

Were you thrilled? Were you devastated? You didn't get to have another scene with him because you didn't get to work with him this season? So funny that you said that. That's the first thing that I thought about. I thought it was a bold move. And I thought it was a bold move that would work, to be honest with you. Because it was shocking when we did the table read of three,

where it was like, oh, wow, what is happening here? Because I kind of vaguely remember we did three and four together maybe as table reads. Again, it's all fuzzy. But it's crazy. You know, there's a history of it. HBO has a history of Red Scareers or, you know, all those things. Blood Wedding, I'm sorry, Blood Wedding. The Red Wedding, yeah, yeah.

The Red Wedding. Got it wrong all three times. I like Red Scares, though. I'm excited for whatever that might be. So you've got two really interesting scenes and then this episode and episode and episode for the scene with you and Jeremy. It's always interesting when Kendall and Stewie are talking

because there's always that push-pull of the history and the friendship and then the very Stewie line of what's in it for me. So how do you balance? What percentage is Stewie operating at in that scene when Ken makes this emotional plea? That scene is so fascinating to me

because there's so many versions of that that's happened. But this time, and so many times where Stewie's been like, no, dude, this is not going to go. And or knew it wasn't going to play in the way that he wanted it to play. But for some odd reason, that name on the paper all of a sudden changes a whole dynamic, doesn't it?

I mean, even, I mean, Jesse wrote three words. He wrote, oh, wow, okay. And in that scene, when he says it, you could see Stewie kind of like, like, oh, shit, new news. Wow, okay. So he's already calculating everything in his head. And I think Stewie's parameter, I think Stewie really likes Ken. I think they're like friends. I think he's like a, you know, also it's weird. I've known Jeremy since he was 19. I've known him for a long time. Really? And so it's, yeah. So when you know someone at a young age, you know, you know,

how nerdy and dwee be and we all were. And so in a way, I think that the dynamic of having that in the backbone is really fascinating because he's not scared of him nor is he competing with him, but he will tell you that he is going to do the thing that wins. And when that information is dropped, that little piece of paper with, you know, the whole thing kind of changes.

How sincere do you think Kendall is being in that scene? Good question. I think he's being sincere. I think he hasn't had a moment to really cope with all the stuff that's been happening to him. I don't think there's that many people. people that are interested in his emotional backing. And for some I had reason at that moment, Kendall kind of releases something. And I think it's so powerful. But I also think it's also telling

that he immediately wants to go to business. Right. If he, if Stewie is thinking it's a play in the middle of that, you know, I think what would be happening is, is he's still going to try to see if he can come out on top. Right. Yeah. So that's what's kind of the amazing dynamic about these two. These are guys that when they were 17, 18, and 19 years old talked about running everything. And why does Stewie always go back? Because what closer net does he have right now on earth than this to the circle, to the pinpoint circle. I believe in their friendship. I really do. I believe that when Stewie says, I'm not, you can't trust me for money and you can't trust me with, I think he's being a friend to him. I don't think he's being

Lengths of sort of, I think he's being like, this is the truth. Like, you're walking into this. And you keep coming back, so you know that that's true. And at the end of that scene in the one in episode four, that's really kind of, is when he says, like, you know, what's in it for me, I think he realizes that there might be a little play here. I really do. I think that's so interesting in this episode, as Ken is making his play, there's so many characters who are sort of like checking in on him. Like, are you sure this is what you want? are you ready? There's almost this air of doom gathering around Kendall as he steps into this.

And, you know, Stewie's one of those people who asked that question. Do you have your head on straight, dude? Like, what is going on? There was a little section of that scene that was cut out where he went even deeper. He went even deeper. You know, the episode was full of so much stuff. That's the other thing about this last season is that these episodes are full. And so, you know, a lot of it is a lot of amazing. amazing stuff is being push aside. But there was a little section in that scene where he even talked about, do you remember what your dad, like, did to you as a kid? Like, I was there when he saw that. And it's funny because when you see that scene, you could tell that Ken is constantly an emotional roller coaster.

And the roller coaster part of it is also the depression that he just, like, hides and, like, you know, swallows in. And there's a history of Stewie saying to him, you know, in season one at the end of season one, where he's like, where he's like, do you have any more drugs? And obviously Stewie does, but he's not giving it. He's like, are you okay, dude? And I don't know how many people do that for Kendall, to be honest with you. I think that's a really dangerous mix for Ken because also Stewie is trying to win the game.

I think that, well, something that I think is Brian Cox said this in a recent interview, that each episode is a day? Is that your understanding of this is like the 10 final days of the Roy family here? I think it's every day is going to be a day. Every episode is going to be, every episode is going to be a day. And what is that like, you know, I know you're going to be in further episodes this season.

How does it impact your performance of knowing that all of this is happening in such close proximity and what happens in episode three is only a few days out from what may happen in episode six or episode eight, etc? It's an immediate pressure cooker. There are three things prior to low. Logan's death that were happening at the same time. His son's wedding, the presidential election, and you have this board, this huge board vote for Manson. And all that's colliding. And now with, now that Logan is gone, but you have these two other real pressure cooker. So for us as actors,

its urgency is at the forefront of everything, as everyone is wheeling and dealing and trying to make sure that they come on on top. Yeah, I'm interested that you mentioned the election. This is something that's sort of, you know, been looming. Jared Macon's coming, he's coming here, he's coming there, he might show up here. Is Stewie at all interested in politics? Is this something that he is at all interested in or wants to mix in? Like, how do you feel? He cares about politics and the fact that he wants to make sure that his, you know, that it's more,

less regulated, I'm sure, you know. So he probably is friends with Minkin. He's probably friends with the other guy. He's probably friends with him all, just to make sure that everyone's happy. This other thing you have, I'm intensely jealous. of you with Jerry, with Frank, with Carl, and with the kids. And, you know, Jerry, Frank and Carl are played by three theater legends, J. Smith, Cameron, Peter Friedman, David Rashi, you're a theater kid.

You're a theater legend. And also, I know that you shoot on film and part of the process of shooting on film on the show is that, you know, you just keep going, keep rolling. And if you have to improv, you have to improv. So, like, in a scene with those theater kids, you're a theater kid, How much improv are we doing? How is it all unspooling for you? Those are just magic days,

just because you're walking into a room of, you know, Titans. You know, I've seen Peter. I saw Peter and Jeremy do a play that Amy Herzog wrote called The Great God Pan, and now I'm in an Amy Herzog play on Broadway. You know, that like we know we know each other. We're, you know, we're invested in all that. It's really you wanted, the film asked, of this, I don't think people really understand. You mentioned it, but I think it's such a high

pressure situation because on digital, even right now, I can stop this interview and be like, can I go back and say that again? And it could be edited out or whatever. And so when you're on film, you can't waste precious tape with that. And so you're doing these little orchestra, these little quintets, these little, I mean, that was a six-person scene of just all of us in the same room trying to make sure that it happens. And what's so amazing about the show is that they trust all these actors to just come in and live in the space. And then all of a sudden, I'm not even sure, maybe I was supposed to enter in last,

but all of a sudden, I am sorry, entering last, I think I was, but then all of a sudden, I'm closing the door to the meeting. Like, it all of a sudden, such a weird-ass small power play that just happened organically. And I think that's what's cool about succession is

we get to have, be in this, like, sandbox. That sounds so cliche, but we get to, like, really divest. I remember there was a moment where, someone's like, I don't remember exactly what their line was, but did Logan really want Kendall to do it? And then Stewie's response is a few times. It's a great response, right?

It's like a few times. And it's so vague and so true and also so you can't really pinpoint it. And then I just remember in the space looking at David Rashi and looking at Peter, I don't even know if it's in the episode anymore, but they looked at each other and they're all like, what the fuck is a few times? Yeah. They're not improvising, but we're like feeling that energy. And so that became part of the DNA of the scene for me and the three of them,

whether you guys are picturing it or not. So it feels really lived in very quickly because you're dealing with people that can go these longer. And we also give a shit. Don't underestimate this. We all really care a lot. I also love in that scene is that Stewie gets one more chance of telling Frank how much he fucking hates Frank. It was back in the season one, he called him the grandfather. He just, like, hates Frank.

And so he gets a little moment where he gets to, like, be like, who me, Frank? And just, like, scream at him for a second. I was fun. I love that that idea of, like, a few times. And Frank has a similar line where he's like, sometimes, right? Like, did Dad want me to do sometimes? And that's just, like, that's just Logan, right? And it feeds into this question that I like to ask everyone I've ever interviewed about this show,

which is what does winning, what do you think winning looks like on Succession? Does being the next Logan Roy feel like a win, ultimately, for these characters? So let's say at the end of the day, person X is at the top of this mountain of Waystar, Royco. For how long? It's the cycle, I think it's the commentary of the piece. It's the cycle of mostly men, mostly men, wanting to win at this thing that in five or six years, they're going to be dethroned. And in 10 years, that person's going to be de-thrown. So, you know, if at the end of the day there's a character that wins at the top of this succession pile in episode 10, how I wonder like how long that will even last.

And at the end of the day, you have Logan that passes and the kids can't even really say that they love him. That's so fucked up. Yeah, that inability to distinguish Logan from the business. Like Logan dies and the business is in trouble and we can't mourn the man without, we can't have a wake for him without also having a business. board meeting there. You know what I mean? It's inextricable. And is that a future any of these kids should want for themselves that like when they go,

people can't distinguish them from the company. I think that's really interesting. One thing that being incredibly rich does afford you is a really nice clothes and Stewie's always a drip king, always. But I thought it was so interesting at this wake when everyone's dressed in grays and blues and blacks and he's in this like plum colored suit. Did you have any conversations about that as like, a specific move on Stewie's part?

Yeah, I mean, yeah, we did. We looked at a bunch of different items that, you know, I think we went with that kind of color because we thought it would be regal. And it was a little ode, a little bit more of an ode to it, up to the regalness of this matter. I also, we also talk a lot about, like, Stewie would say everyone's going to wear black.

He's like, everyone's going to wear black. I saw you years and years and years ago in a production of King Lear with Sam Westernerston. No, you did not. That was, yeah. Come on. That's amazing. Yes. That's great.

And also, you did an incredible production of Hamlet that I didn't get to see, but I know that you did that. So you're a Shakespeare guy. Obviously, the text of King Lear is sort of baked into this show. All of the different actors have talked about these various iconic Shakespearean characters. characters. Jeremy's out there talking about Richard the third, all this sort of stuff as it feeds into this season. Are you thinking about Stewie in any kind of Shakespearean way and or sort of a larger, what is the Shakespearean shape of this season as far in your informed opinion? In a way, I've thought about this actually in the past. And I don't have a defined answer to exactly what this is. but a Stewie is kind of a, it's funny, a Stewie needs,

there isn't that many Shakespearean characters that can be both duplicitous and honest at the same time. So it's this, but I always feel that Stewie's charm has a lot to do with Iago in Othello. He can manipulate a room his liking and be fine with it. Iago is, I think, more duplicitous than what you're called, than Stoias. I think he's also like making havoc in which I think that Stuy is just being honest and being like, I am the habit. Because I'm going to tell you that this is a stupid-ass idea.

So I think about that a little bit. But, you know, the scene with Colin and Logan at the diner, you know, there's so many similarities to the fool and leer in that. Just the last, like, what is all this? And to me, I love that scene. I constantly think about that scene. And that to me shows that just how incredible this spirituality of Succession is, that it can lead to all of these different, like, layers upon layers upon layers of things. Can you talk a little bit more about that idea of spirituality?

Like, how do you think of Succession as a spiritual tech? The spirituality of what is family is really kind of fascinating to me about this show. Are they a family? or are they a business? And I think the spirituality of that idea about this family that comes together that really doesn't know each other or care about each other

but pretends to care, sometimes has things that they care about, sometimes they don't, but at the end of the day are all interested at this top dollar shows me that we're living in a society that's driven to capitalistic and materialistic ideas

more than it is into people. Very few people on succession know to how to actually be human beings. to each other. And so we get so shocked when the three of them hug. That's my favorite thing. It's shocking. When they're able to actually connect and show. Yeah, be together.

It's like, holy fuck. Or when Ken says to Logan, like, did you just express a feeling? Holy shit, dad. Yeah, yeah. You know, at the end of this, the whole of your acting journey or your life journey, you're just going to be at your deathbed at the end of the day. And you're not going to be thinking about the car you bought. We literally saw it on this show.

We literally saw it. what the last moments look like with this family. And I definitely don't want that. It was just tragic. Even Connor, I mean, Connor, I'm doing a play right now with Jessica Chastain. We were talking about Connor. That last scene with Connor is so,

that last episode is so, you know, the cake, the, he never even liked me. It's like, what is that? No money in the world should be worth any of these feelings. And I think that I talk about this a lot when I talk about Succession, this idea of like the honesty in transactional love. Like there's something very honest about what Connor and Willa have in that episode that feels more sincere, you know, despite the origins of their relationship, like more sincere and more connected than anything the other kids are able to have in that episode, you know. I feel that they're going to be great together, to be honest. And I was actually weirdly say the same in a much lesser way with.

the friendship of Stewie and Kendall. With all of the machinations, all the ups and downs, I just don't find Stewie one day going to be, you know, holding any punches from him. And he does. Kendall has hold punches. There still doesn't know why we broke up that deal at the beginning of season two. He still doesn't know that. So there's all of these, I think they're going to be fine in a way,

just because I think that there is a relationship of honesty there. Last question I want to ask you, there's this joy in succession of being at the center of a scene. And then you can also just be like on the fringe background of scene. It's what makes succession feel so theatrical is that the camera can find you at any time. So you always have to be doing something interesting. But there's this moment, of course, when like Shiv walks past and you're having a laugh at awake. First of all, what do you think Siri is laughing about there? And secondly, like, yeah, what is the difference for you being at the center of a scene versus

is sort of peripheral in a scene in succession. Without sounding too like artists with a capital A. The truth is it's, I try not to even think of the differentiation. Just because the camera crew, the art that's happening in there, all of that is next to each other. Do you know what I mean? And what were we laughing about? We were laughing about these like, like really spicy Japanese little ranchers,

Jolly Ranchers. And I was just chewing on it. I was like, holy shit, and we just started laughing about it. And we knew the line needed to, we knew that in the script, she says, yeah, yeah, yeah, hug it out, you know, laugh it up, laugh it up. And so Stewie has such like a, always is like, interested in, like, foods and like always has things that he's putting in and out, you know, so like had this little thing and that's what we're laughing about. And then she got so offended. And then what's also crazy is never in the script that it's said that he was going to help shiv up

after she likes tumbles. And then all of a sudden you're there. And then it's like, well, I'm here. And I know her. And I've known her for a long time. So why wouldn't I go? And again, that's what I mean. I think he's genuinely trying to help her.

I don't think he's trying to do any, like try to play a move. And he's genuinely laughing about this ridiculous, whatever it was, Jolly Ranch or whatever. hilarious. I can't even believe that made it to be. honestly, but I'm glad that it did. The laughter scene and the fall?

What do you hope people take away from succession at the end of the day when all of a sudden done? You know, I really do think of it as an anti-capitalist speech, a piece of art. That's another piece of spirituality of it. I think so I really just genuinely hope that people can, you know, on a real grand level, kind of be like, A, that kind of wealth. And it's just not healthy for our society. It's just not healthy that they have that much power.

It's not healthy that I still think about in season one. They're like, well, we'll lay off 30,000 people. Okay, what else? What else? I hope that we can start looking at that and being like, no three morons should be deciding this. I don't care. That's one thing that I hope to take away.

Well, thank you so much for your time, for your performance, for the creation that is Dewey, I will really miss him. Thank you. Ryan Reynolds here from Mitt Mobile, the message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please for the love of everything good in this world, stop. With Mint, you can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments, but that's weird.

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