The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Succession’ Season 4, Episode 5 Recap

Episode Date: April 24, 2023

Bill, Sean, and Joanna are back to break down the fifth episode of ‘Succession’ Season 4. They discuss the alarming revelations regarding Lukas Matsson’s personal life and the complicated dynamic between him and the Roy siblings. Along the way, they also talk about Roman and Kendall’s inability to effectively handle the GoJo deal and Shiv’s behind-the-scenes strategic maneuvering. They close with predictions on who will be running Waystar Royco at the end of the season. Hosts: Bill Simmons, Sean Fennessey, and Joanna Robinson Producer: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Sean Fennessey, one of the hosts of the Prestige TV podcast. HBO's Barry is back for a fourth and final season. And that means I'll be back recapping the show with co-creator and star Bill Hader to dive deep on the themes, scenes, and major moments in the series. Bill will provide insight into how every episode was made and why it's ending. New Prestige TV Barry recaps will go live every Sunday night when the episode ends. So make sure you're subscribed to the Prestige TV podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Succession.

Episode 5. My name is Bill Simmons. Here was Sean Fantasy and Joanna Robinson. This was the Norway episode we were hoping for. We got to go to Norway. Got to spend some time with Madsen. We got to hold a half liter of his blood. This was another good episode.

I feel like we're five for five. What do you think, Joanna? Yeah. No, I had a great time in Scandinavia with this crew. I love meeting some of the Gojo people and like understanding this completely. I love whenever Succession does that. A takes us to like some kind of. kind of event. And B shows us a completely different slice of a culture of a different company,

a different kind of disgusting rich person, big fan. Soda, soda. Sean, did you think this was going to turn in a midsummer at any point that this was just going to go off the rails? What were you expecting? It felt a little more like Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross, you know, a lot of like, here are the smart guys and here are the not so smart guys. Here's who has the power. Here's who does not have the power. but I really enjoyed it. Love to be acquired by a Scandinavian company, you know? Who can relate? I know.

It was so strange. Let's, before we go through all like the beats of the episode, I just feel like we got a deep dive the Matson character. They didn't really feel like we had a 100% feel for him yet, what they were trying to accomplish with him, where we were going with him, who he might be based on, all kinds of things. and they just went for it in this episode

and all these different ways. What jumped out the most, Joanna? Well, so in addition to the Elon muskiness that was already there, I thought it was really interesting that there are two, you know, they mentioned he's a movie guy and there are two, by my reckoning, two like movie star things that they gave him.

One is the juicy rumor about Leonardo DiCaprio and his headphone habits when he has sex that comes from a Leonardo DiCaprio. story. And then two, the blood thing felt very Jared Leto to me. So it felt like they were giving him like Leto DiCaprio stuff in addition to some of the tech billionaire

stuff that was already in the stew. They threw a pretty spicy, Me Too kind of overtone thing that you know, haven't seen that in a show in a while. The last six years I think at least in America stuff like that's probably

not happening in the same way where you're sending the head of comms. You have an affair with her and then you start sending her your blood. I feel like that would be kind of a big deal in American corporation. He's rattling it off to Shiv. It's probably the key scene of the episode because

Shiv has the big comeback, right? And we'll get to that in a second. But what do you think they're trying to do with Matt's in here, Sean? Are they trying to unravel him? Are they trying to give us breadcrumbs that he's just going to be falling apart or that they can use some of this stuff against him to sabotage

the deal? What was the purpose of this? Well, I think on the one hand, they showed us yet another incredibly powerful person who is an absolute nightmare personally and even professionally. And that's pretty consistent with the show. Everyone who has kind of gotten to this echelon of success in our world is defined by the most bizarre and unseemly traits. So that's part of it. I think the other part of it is maybe a kind of revelation that Scarsguard, you know, as he continues to taunt Roman and Kendall, is more like their father and that in order to get to a place like this

you need to be like this and he fancies himself a kind of self-made man the same way that Logan did and it requires a certain kind of vindictiveness and kind of rudeness you know like rudeness I think to find Scars Card's performance which I thought was absolutely wonderful and I think also the you know the kind of conclusive moment

the idea that even when Roman and Kendall set a plan that seems like a good plan up to their, you know, they did their very best to execute on something in collaboration and it just completely backfired. And it feels like Mattson is going to get what he wants in the face of their plan to keep from him what he wants. So, you know, he was kind of an interesting jockeying partner for them,

you know, and kind of another character, another kind of Funhouse Mirror to show like what they don't have versus what he has. Yeah, that's a really good point. I was thinking that the whole show, it just seemed like he existed to show like how kind of unqualified they were for that job. Like, Joanna, you won't get this reference as much, but Sean being a diehard Jets fan has had some bad head coaches, right?

And in the NFL, sometimes there's a really good assistant coach, but there's a huge difference between I can run the defense and I can be an awesome NFL head coach. And to me, it felt like two, like the linebackers coach and the second. coach trying to jockey with Bill Belichick, and he sniffed him out. And all the last two episodes have done for me is just show how unqualified these two are to run anything. Right. It's just over and over again, they don't know how to spar. They don't understand. Like, you know, Matt's, and it's such a well-written character. And I didn't really have a handle on him until this episode. But he does the thing where he, oh, I'm just kidding. I'm kidding. But it's like

a half-kitting. And he's always trying to keep you uncomfortable. backpedaling, what's this guy doing? And it's like his way of controlling the situation. And you never could have done that with Logan. Logan would have sniff that out. He would have brought it back. He would have cut the guy down. And over and over again, Kendall, you can see he's just kind of staring at him.

He doesn't know how to respond. And then Roman finally snaps at the end of the episode. But what else do you think they're trying to accomplish with Matt and Joanna? Well, I think so something we were talking about in episode three, the, you know, Connor's wedding episode, was how. how the siblings were working together to sort of deploy whichever sibling was most suited for which conversation, because they were, like, flowing like water together through that episode. Now that they're fractured and Ken is actually trying to keep Shiv out and Roman is sort of half-heartedly trying to involve her, they don't have the Voltron of the three of them. And as it turns out, Shiv is the right person to talk to Madsen in this episode.

Her agenda is just no longer aligned with the guys because they're shutting her out. So, like, it's that thing I always wish for that just, like, Succession is just telling me again and again is never going to happen. If they could just work together, they are their father in some component parts. You know, Mattson's episode says, Shiv reminds him of Logan. We saw Kendall B Logan at the end of last week's episode. Like, they all have aspects of Logan, but they cannot work together ever. And so they're just a tribute band, as Mattson says in this episode without working together, you know. He says to Shiv at the end, he says, I like,

you, you're cool, you're not judgy, you can take a joke like your dad. And, you know, we've said that on a bunch of these episodes. She's the one who's kind of the most reminiscent of the dad. I mean, none of them are exactly like the dad, but she probably has the most of his qualities, and she's the most ruthless, and she can see the chessboard probably better than the other two. That comparison that you made to the father earlier, too, is it reminded me of the scene where, you know, I think when they, it's when they leave their

mother's wedding to go see Mattson. You know, they take the boat, Roman and Logan, and they meet with him for the first time and they start having that discussion about the shape of the deal. And Logan effectively needs to send Roman away to get to a clearer point on the deal. And that was kind of underlining that, you know, Roman is not really ready to play in these waters. You know, he's not suited to a conversation like that. Whereas Shiv, this is a situation where her lack of experience in business, but her wealth of experience in power really plays to her advantage. Like, she's been in a lot of rooms working in politics with very powerful people with huge egos. And she knows how to very elegantly let them have their ego. She doesn't necessarily

make them feel bad. You know, she also obviously has like a just one of the guys kind of sensibility in terms of the way that she communicates with these people having two brothers, you know, being close to her father. And that works in her favor. You know, it makes her much more powerful in this situation. And it's funny that Kendall and Roman can't see that, that they have no, They wouldn't even consider that she is the right person to be forward facing in these conversations. Well, and she also knows how to use a little sex appeal with Matton. Sure, but also how to not take cocaine but take cocaine at the same time. I mean, that is like one of the slickest moves we've ever seen.

And I think to Sean's point, I don't disagree with what the people in universe or what you guys have said about Shiv's and experienced business side. But I love how she is constantly knows exactly what Ken's doing. in the media because this is her job, right? As, like, local advisor, eye on the media. And so, you know, every time Ken is just sort of pretending that he's not placing these stories, she knows exactly what he's doing because this is her wheelhouse, precisely. Yeah, it's a good point. Let's go to the Shiv with Madsen, because that's kind of the key part of this

where we find out a whole bunch of information about him in the span of like five minutes. First, it's Shiv and it's Ebba and it's Mets. Madsen and they have a super weird interaction. And he says, Eva's like an estrogen air freshener to try to keep us clean. And then, and you could just see, it's like, ah, there's something, something's not good with these two. And they walk off and Shiv smells it immediately. And then when she kind of circles back and they're hanging out and having drinks,

she opens up to him a little, talks about like, what's going on with your husband. I broke, broke his heart. He broke mine. So now it's like, and then Mattson just. bills, everything. And it gets super weird fast. I sent her some of my blood, half a liter of frozen blood as a joke. She got a bit weirded, but I just kept doing it. It became not a joke and a joke again. And now it's apparently not a joke. And it's like, well, who was this? Oh, it's Abba. You met her earlier, my head of comms. So now she's following this away.

She can, I don't know how she's going to use this. How do you think she uses this, Sean? Because She's going to use it. This is information that's currency. Well, it was notable to me that Carolina was not on the kill list. And it was notable that Jerry was not on the kill list. Two people that were effectively cited in that conversation who Shiv can put into her pocket strategically in the event that there is some sort of, you know, if this deal goes through or a version of it goes through and then there is a kind of union between these two companies, she's going to hold a lot of leverage in that union.

If they're out and that's it and they're done, that's another story. It's kind of unclear how a lot of this will shake out. But, I mean, also publicly, she has an opportunity, even if she's out, to potentially expose him in some way. And so if she wants to use that, she can too. Or even, like, semi-blackmail him, right? Exactly. Yeah. I love that, like, Carolina, Jerry, are on the kill list and Thompson on the kill list.

Like, and these are, like, three preferences of Shiv. And Schiff's, like, quiet, silent power in that moment is incredible. And I also just want to shout out two line readings from Sarah Snook that actually, like, had me in stitches. One is about the deniability, given that she has so much of your blood. And then the other one is, one step, stop sending people your blood. It's a great conversation. So good. They also, they leave the scene, right, to go to the next scene.

But we also, we have no idea how much longer she was there. And we don't know, could there have been more negotiation? Could they have actually talked about some price? could she have said, I think my brothers are trying to neg this deal. I think he's leaking, like, we don't know. And they might reveal that in episode six. We haven't seen any of the next screeners. But I thought it was really, really, really, really telling that the episode ends was

Shiv holding the glass of champagne. And it's like, they're all the champagne. It goes to the boys. And then it goes to her. And she's just got this look like, I am in control now. I'm the captain. So I do think there's probably more. I think she feels like she has the driver, the steering wheel.

though. Yeah, it's like we said last week, right, that she was, this is, she's on the road to, you know, this is the comeback episode. This is her reclaiming. Joanna predicted this. Well, it makes, so does Sean, but it makes me nervous that it's episode five. She has so many episodes to fuck this up. You know what I mean? Like, if this were episode eight, I'd be like, yeah, my girl's on the rise. And now I'm like, when are you going to fuck it up? Because they all fuck everything up all the time.

But I think that what's also notable coming out of that meeting, because she's feeling herself coming out of that meeting, right? So in the way that she's fucking with Tom the next morning, like he knows she was with Madsen, like deep into the night. She's fucking with him that way. She's scuffing up a sneakers. She's being very madsen in both that interaction and her later interaction with Tom on the plane when she's like makes him think for a second that he's going to be fired.

Then she gives him the gift of like, you can go fire Sid. I know that you want to do this. So you get to go tell her. And it's just very like that Norse trickster energy that Scarsar's putting into Madsen as she's channeling in those scenes. I thought that was fascinating. The other big scene, we're on the map. near the end. It's Cannon Roman

versus Mattson. They've decided they want to neg the deal. They show the gojo people, their terrible movie that they're making. What is that movie, Sean? Are you covering that on the big picture? Yeah, yeah. We've devoted a 30-part series to Calispetron. I've charted the entire Calispetron extended universe. What is it a sleeping robot? What's the plot of this movie?

Sleeping robot in a cave for the first hour, but it's okay. They're going to fix it. Okay. It sounds good. I'm folk. Colon, hibernation. I think this one of the will I don't. So they have that amazing scene and they're talking about the movie and

what is it? Is it Mattson? Oh no. Roman says Hollywood's always in fucking crisis, right? So it's like Jesse Armstrong throwing a little. I love that. Hollywood juice. And then Mattson just, he gets agro and he does that. Are you guys Scooby-Doo doing me? The theme parks are

haunted. Your big movie is shitty or you're taking the deal? I thought it was funny that he went to Scooby-Doo as the reference. It's like the classic European 15 years behind American culture kind of thing. I don't feel like Scooby-Doo is really a thing anymore here. Hannah-Barbera business school? Right. From where he is, it's a big deal.

It's the way he says Hana Barbera. I love a friend of, I was talking to a friend of mine about this episode, and she was talking about Alex Sarger's, like, Swedish accent code switching. How, like, he's so capable of sounding very American, but he's laying it on, like, rather, he sounds so much more like his dad in this, uh, in this show than he does. and other projects, and I really like it. Yeah, and I think, I mean, this conversation on the ridge here, I mean, we have many episodes to come,

but this feels like Karen Culkin's Emmy Real, right? Like this speech he gives here. He was awesome. Well, Matt said, says, I prefer doing this with your dad. He was a prick, but at least he knew what he wanted. And Roman's like, our dad was not a prick. Like, it's the dad's holdover Roman is kind of incredible, like over and over again. And then even when he talks about, when he finally snaps,

and he's like, you couldn't fucking wait a way to week is that whole thing and he says um he talks about how his kids his brother and sister fucked up and then he goes i'm gone i'm dead it's over for me i don't really fully know how to explain the roman logan relationship but he seems like by far the most upset about the death well he's he's been spun out right before the meeting because Connor sends him a photo that he looks at and he sees a photo of his dead father and that puts him in a position to fail in this situation you know he's He has the most emotional bond to his dad and is the most kind of traumatized by the death and also the least willing to kind of openly communicate about it.

You know, like Kendall has a great grief guy, but Roman is not talking to a grief guy. He pregrieved. He pregrieved. He's fine. He's completely unresolved in his feelings. And he sees this image that destroys him. And then that leads to this meltdown. And he's facing the person who is taunting him in so many ways, you know, openly in the way that

he speaks to him. but also just by making them come to Norway while their father is being prepared for a funeral. That's obviously cruel what Mattson is doing to them and very purposeful, right? It's total power play. And so, I mean, it's not surprising, honestly, that he snaps in the way that he does.

But his, I agree that Culkin is unbelievable. Like, I fucking hate you. And if you say anything to the board, it was a negotiating tactic. I mean, he is so raw in that sequence. It's great. You just drag us out here, you inhuman dog man?

Well, yeah. And, like, Roman has always been the most emotional and most sensitive. But this is, like, this is showing, okay, so, like, we love to talk about these kids and their fatal flaws. And, like, for Kendall, you know, it's this addiction power thing. You know what I mean? Like, who smiles when talking about, like, walking a tightrope on a razor, right? Like, this is, this is Ken and his, like, stick the needle in me sort of, like, mowed, right? That's his kink.

Yeah. Yeah. And then, like, Shiv has her flaws. We've gone over those. And then, Roman, he's, like, impulsive. He's sensitive and he's impulsive. The dick pick last season was like a big, you know, fuck himself over moment. And this, this he fucked himself.

That's what Lucas like leans in grinning. You fucked yourself. And like, you know, Kendall tries to say like, well, it wasn't the plan, but maybe it works. But like, no, they're so fucked. He's going to absolutely bear hug them on this. And so, yeah, I love this. I love this as an exposure of him. I also want to shout out a little piece of filmmaking.

We don't talk that much all the time about the filmmaking on the show except for like the way the camera moves around. But there's a shot on that amount. I mean, it couldn't have been super easy to film on that mountain top, but there's a shot up there where Sarsgaard is reflected in Jeremy Strong's sunglasses. And again, it's just like a beautiful camera set up. And a show that just usually just lets the camera go wherever. That was a very intentional RT shot that I wanted to call out.

I'm glad you mentioned that. I thought visually this was one of my favorite succession episodes. I just enjoyed being where they were. I thought it just was really cool and different. And the way they have to ascend at the end to go talk to this guy, like all the parallels of that. And then them leaning over at the end after the thing. And Kendall's like, well, that wasn't a plan, but maybe it plays.

Like he's just always a jackass at all times. He just talks in cliches. I mean, these last two episodes, he's been this just a cliche machine. But they're just, you know, they don't have it. Mattson sniffed it out almost immediately and just toyed with them for an hour. I do think we should unpack a little bit of like the actual ending though and what the intent was and whether or not like what Mattson was thinking and what he did. Like from your perspectives, did Mattson do what he said he was going to do, which is basically

go around and go to the elders by communicating directly with Frank and give the offer and make the deal sustainable because it has to be out in the public? Or was he actually, did he actually feel like he got worked over by the broad others and actually like lost the negotiation in some way. And so because of that, he needed to go up in the way that Shiv suggested he did. Like in the power dynamic, like what actually happened there from the time from when they left the mountain to when they frank out the phone call? I think it's the former. I think this is a power play, you know, like especially since he calls Shiv's and ask her to take a photo of their faces, right? Like he's doing, I mean, you guys know

way more about business than I do. Not just because you've watched billions, but for other reasons. But, like, you know, my understanding is that, like, you know, there's a move you can make right where the deal is so good that, you know, Roman elucis is an SEC violation if you don't take the deal, right? So he makes the deal so good that the boys have to take it, even though that's the opposite of what they want. And them having to pretend to celebrate while getting fucked over in broad daylight by Madsen is chef's kiss. Wonderful. I don't know. What do you think, Bill? I actually think the opposite.

I think he became convinced on the mountain that these kids were bozos and they were going to fuck up the deal. And I think he read everything. I think he's like these kids, they don't want the deal because they're dumb enough to think they can actually run the company. I might actually lose this deal. So I'm going to have to do a little end around. I'll offer $5 more. I'll get the number out. It would actually potentially be illegal for them not to take the deal because it's so much money.

and if the board and the stock people all wanted it, they're fucked. And that's why he was so, that's why he wanted the picture at the end because he was like, these guys think they fucked me and they, you know, they neg the deal and then they're going to get out. And he's like, I actually went around, get a picture of their faces because I fucking won this one. And I don't even think it was that hard for him to win it. It was not hard to check me at these guys. So that was my take. I might be right.

I don't know. No, I agree with you. I agree. I think I just want to talk through it because it's, it's, um, the show, this show had a few moments where they chose not to show us certain things happening. And one of them was the latter half of the Shiv conversation like you identified. Um, and then because of that, we don't necessarily know what was discussed. And so why, like is Mattson playing Shiv? That's entirely possible. Um, and we may see like how, kind of how wily is he is something that we don't fully understand yet. And so, and there's even a part of me that was like, maybe Waystar Royco is off the board for the rest of this series? Like, maybe we're not even going to be talking about the company for the final five episodes. I really don't know. Like, I think part of the, part of the intrigue here is, like, what is the future of the way that these three kids fit together?

Is that that that feels like, I guess four kids, if you include con, apologies to the conheads. I think I'm trying to understand if this show is not as much about Logan's legacy now for the through the end. obviously what he's given them still matters tremendously but if they put him to rest and the company is sold, it's a different show in so many ways.

It's funny, they keep mentioning Dad's deal, dad wouldn't know one of this. They say, we can't go by the dad maps and then they talk about this is the thing dad built and then Shiv is the one that's the coldest about it, right? She's like, this is fucking toxic.

Get rid of it. It's a toxic asset. And she's the one that sees it for what it is. Okay, first of all, first and foremost, I do want to thank Sean for remembering Connor Roy and his sacrifice of canceling on a room full of working class whites in Cleveland to take care of his dad. What all those working class whites do? Where will they go now if they don't have Connor? I don't know. Cleveland. Tough day for Cleveland. But I also, I mean, I think I think the Shiv, the Shiv ATN thing is key because when we think about like what is, what's the breaking, I'm not trying to be predictive. I'm trying to like,

construct these characters. What's the breaking point for all? Or do they have a line they won't cross? And for Shiv, it feels like it's this election thing, right? It comes up every single episode. Jared Mencken. Yeah, Jared Mencken. The reason she wants to dump ATIN is because they're letting the Republican frontrunner in on the planning meetings every morning. She's just like, fucking get rid of this. She never wants to be associated with Fox News. It's never what she wanted to be. And so, you know, that's a good point. The two times she's been the most upset. or this episode about that call, and then when they wanted her to take the picture

last season with them, and that was the one time she veered against her dad in a real way. So it feels like a line that she's not going to be able to cross that might cause, you know, like, because we know that Roman will is fine with it, loves Jared Macon. And Ken has that really impotent, that's not okay, like a couple times in this episode

where he doesn't mean it at all, right? He has no scruples when it comes to this. But what's Shiv's, breaking point. And does she have a line she won't cross? Does Roman have a line he won't cross in terms of what dad's what's dad's legacy? What does dad want? That is very much still on his mind. And then I don't know if Ken has any principles or scruples. He seems to not. He cuts Shiv out so quickly in this episode. He just promised her. And then he cuts her out right away. Can Pinky Dance? Well, yeah, going backwards, we have the, when we see him, he's got the sunglasses on listening to the hip hop again. Shades of season one. It's like, oh, he's back, man.

Takeover, the ultimate disc track. I mean, that is like an amazing. Sometimes I just feel like the show is writing specifically for me. Like the hearing that needle dropped to the end of this episode. I was like, oh, my heart. This is unbelievable. It's so funny. And the perfect song to reveal like what a total dipshit is that Ken would associate himself with takeover in that moment. It's just perfect. And he goes in with that fake agro. I'm in charge now energy. He walks into the meeting. Look at these fucking chumps. Just like such a jackass. Tell us the new P. It comps people to fuck off.

Like, you know, he just, he's like, all right, I'm going to just immediately try to turn into my dad and do a bad version of it. But it's so funny because he walks in and he's immediately rattled that like Roman is already there and Roman has already been like doing business. He's like, did you sleep here? Roman's like, no, I got in early. And not only is Roman already there, Shiv's already there. Like, you know, Ken is like, I'm going to come in early.

I want to come in early and then we're going to hop on the plane. And his siblings are like, we've already started our day. Where have you been? I did enjoy CEO Bros is kind of the bad version. Shall we maybe not do the bad version? I like CEO Bros. That would have been a good day for the episode. I also liked when he said, oh, we can know, she's going to advise and liaise.

Is liais a word? It is, yes. I'm not positive, but I've never heard liais used in, Have you ever used the word liaised, Sean? Do you want to liaise later? Not in any forward-facing manner, but, you know, in my private affairs, I might use that word. Lease. You know, he's just with your infant child, right, Sean?

Are you liaising with your child later? He's just got this incredible rolodex, this kind of thesaurus of debagged business school words that he's just constantly leaning on to seem more sophisticated, more accomplished, smarter than everybody in the room. And, you know, he's obviously not. It was very transparent in this episode, how weak they were trying to make him seem. Well, then we have a...

And Shiv's got weird energy to start, which is funny where we finish. But she's... You could just tell, she's like, oh, my God, these guys are already pushing me out. This is bullshit. We deflate to Norway. Tom sits...

Our guy, Carl, just continuing to get home runs. Frank and Carl's compression socks. Oh, my God. The compression sock moment. You got a problem, Tom? Carl's just like big boy and Tom left and right. Should the three of us write a show for David Rashi?

Because I feel like he's really climbing the charts every week. I cannot believe how good he's been this season. I just want to, like, I wish he had a tip jar. I would just send him $20. That's a great idea. And then Carolina, our girl, just continuing to kill it in a lot of scenes. And she calls Gojo's com team a NASDAQ master race, which I thought was great. And then...

Full bright's coming out of their ass. And then our other girl, Jerry, who, you know, the whole point of the show is fucking Jerry should be the CEO. Like, what are we doing? And as usual, it's complete chaos. Everybody's a jackass. Everybody's trying to snake each other. Nobody's coherent.

And then it goes to Jerry. And she just, like, lays it out in 20 seconds. They're European. They're soft. They think they're Vikings. But we've been raised by wolves. And she's actually like galvanizes the group. Proving yet again, then Jerry should be the CEO.

They just, they, they're never going to get there. But maybe that's how this show ends. Maybe they all realize this is who should win. Everyone who put on their game face, though, like all of the people who put on their game face for this encounter got saved and everyone who didn't got cut. Carolina bothered to learn some Swedish. So, you know, that's points.

We have our first day with Gojo where, um, it's always the Scandinavians and movies and TV. They're always like off the charts, goofy. and weird. I went to Sweden last year. There's definitely a slightly weird energy in Sweden. Careful. I'm going to be careful. Who's listening to this pod?

I can land this plane. It's a tight rope on a razor, Sean. No, you go and it's like, it's very active. Everybody's kind of walking around. There's like a real active moving energy. They're very direct. But this is like kind of the slightly comic version of it, I think. People screaming.

So does guys with beards and the whole thing. I have to say like, um, Frank and Carl and Jerry, all timers. But, like, this is very much a Hugo episode. Oh, yeah. And when he's talking about his competition to Ray, good old bore on the floor, Ray, and he's like, blew a seven-point lead at the Sochi Olympics, possible choker, Ray, possible choker.

Iconic stuff from Hugo. And then, like, trying to neg the guy over breakfast. After Ray has put his massive breakfast pastry on Hugo's plate. And then the other guy's, like, save some for the. rest of us, I was like, all the Hugo shit in this episode cracked me up. I thought it was so good. Sean, you catch that when he stuck the pastry?

And I didn't notice that until the second viewing. It was really good. It was really good. I, uh, even just the opening moments of that episode, though, when Shiv gets out of the car. And she's like, which way to Chairman Mattson's reeducation camp? It's perfectly setting up. That's, I mean, it's like a very, uh, controlled world in

Scandinavia, right? Everything is very linear, very structured, very clean lines. everyone is very fit, you know, there's a lot of kind of this, like you said, Bill, this sort of sense of movement, but also self-confidence. Everyone that they encounter is completely unbothered or threatened by everyone, which means that the flop sweat is kind of coming hard and fast from everybody on the way star side, which just makes every encounter really funny. I mean, this was the first episode where I felt like I understood why Fisher Stevens was on the show. Like, this is actually the Fisher Stevens I know as a performer, the guy who's kind of like, he's smaller than everybody. He's got a giant head. He's kind of,

weird. He's stammering all the time, you know, not like him in a power position. And so I, I thought it was just that whole, every encounter with their, their Swedish counterpart was perfect. They also had, um, when Matt said, he pulls the boys, they have their first, like, one on two meeting. And he decides to take his thing off. And of course, shows like 15 abs, just throws them out and it's just like, yeah, just like, all right, that felt intentional. And Schiff says that later to Tom. Or it's like, you know, he's, he's broad. You're more like, wiery or whatever, whatever she says. You're a spulunker.

Yeah, you're a spulker. But there is a physicality to all these people that I think matters because you have like, you know, on the one hand, you have this guy who's in the Olympics and his counterpart is like little tiny Hugo and, you know, you can kind of sense that physicality the whole time. Mallor will fire me off the bringer verse if I don't point out that the guy who's playing Oscar, who's like the big beardy guy, Johannes Johanson, he's an Icelandic actor, Game of Thrones guy.

Lem, Lemon Cloak, Game of Thrones guy. But he's been on budget stuff. And his name is pretty high up in the closing credits. He wasn't in sort of like the roster. So like I wonder if we'll see Oscar again some more. It seems like something we might see again. So you're saying he's a little overqualified for the part that doesn't seem that big yet? For one episode.

Yeah. And I think he might have been the person on the phone in last week's episode, though I couldn't say for sure. But he might have been. So I feel like we might see him again. But it's succession. And you could cast that guy for one episode and he would say thank you. please may have another sort of thing. Are you looking for support

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So they have the first negotiation. He offers the 187 per share 50-50 cash stock. The kids freeze like they always do. They go back. Roman says, took your boner away, Carl. Carl just wants out. I think Carl,

anybody is like, get me the fucking cash out. Get me my stock. Get me my package. These kids are going to fuck everything up. This Madison's a lunatic. Like, just let's get the deal done and I'm out. And that leads to the whole First Day Gojo hang.

We get a little little cousin Greg doing cousin Greg stuff. What do you say? He called the safety of the quad, the Roy patrol. And they're like, what are you talking about?

Go get me a coffee. The quad squad, de family. And then the response is de fuck. Da fuck. That was great. I just see them like home by five, you know,

like call it a day in the writer's room when they write down DeFamily de fuck. And they're like, you know what? Let's call it a day. That's perfect time. We round that three times.

Wait, wait. Okay, wait. Can I just, can I zoom back to the two-on-one, just a tiny moment? Like, before the ab flash, when the hood is still up on Madsen, walking in, there's a huge spread, and Kieran Colkin, Roman just sticks his finger in the caviar bowl and just like, he licks it as he walks in. It's just like a wide shot. And I feel like it's just something Kieran Culkin decided to do. And it's so funny. we had Tom trying to hang with Madsen's crew

they were discussing if France would make it which I thought was great Tom's response to their question is so good everything I actually want a little more Mattson versus Tom maybe we'll get that down the road but then he does the just passing time to come up with a counter you don't want ATN

we have our own Paris and if it burns we'll build another yeah US was late Imperial you know Yeah. And then Greg trying to sound smart by citing the economist. And I was like, oh, is he going to pull it out? And then he says, old lady France, don't fucking bet against the old baguette. The baguette may be better than the bagel. Greg tried to summarize an article you read in The Economist. Amazing. Kendall pushes back on Mattson. You see way back for a phenomenally lucrative news organization. So they're a little tug-of-war of what Ateens actually where Mattson throws Walter in his face. Does the tribute band. thing. Gets super ugly fast. Shiv kind of does, are we good? It gets really icy in about two minutes. I did like Mattson's description of what the ATN experience is like and how he'll change it. He says, I've seen it, a lot of yelling, small men, big veins. Long term, I don't think news for angry, old people works. I would fold it in, fat pipe that shit, make it more Bloomberg, great, simple, cheap, huge, IKEA'd to fuck.

When Spotify came calling to the ringer, did they promise to IKEA it to the fuck? Was that part of the pitch? Look at us now. Look at us now. We're doing great. Nothing but blonde pine furniture as far as the eye can see. Lingenberry's a mini meatballs.

If they had said that, the deal probably would have closed faster because I would have been so impressed. And then he goes, yeah, we're okay. I'm just trying to make you rich. And Kendall takes a beat and goes, I'm already rich. It was like his one good moment of the episode. He was such an overwhelmed jackass in this episode. But I did like that.

Yeah, I love the point that Andy made on the watch last week about this distinction of being rich versus wealthy. That what's at stake for the kids is so different from what's at stake for someone like, you know, Carl who's half in on a Greek island with his brother-in-law. You know what I mean? Yeah. They will be wealthy no matter what. But the old guard of like Jerry Frank and Carl who are sort of like anxiously, sweatily, like, hang. around to make sure these kids don't fuck it up. They have a lot more mistake, a lot more on the line in terms of financials, etc.

Well, then they do the sauna and Carl and Frank just are in their robes outside. And Frank says how they're hanging in the window like peaking duck, which I loved. Another 20 bucks in the jar for David Rashy on that moment. Yeah, and then we covered everything else except the last plane ride where we found out about the hit list, which was just an incredible 90 seconds of the people finding out. Mark, you're out. Fuck! It's like watching like a fantasy baseball auction or something.

52 for Otani. Damn it! But meanwhile, these guys are losing their jobs. And then, you know, probably not a coincidence to Carolina and Jerry and Tom, three direct shiv people. So my guess is that she helped with the hit list. We don't know for sure, but that I think is a pretty safe guess. Correct? She seems pretty smug about it.

Yeah. Absolutely. And something I do want to shout out that, so part of Kendall's move to fuck the deal is to leak a story to the press about the bad vibes, right? And who does he pull in to do that, Cousin'G? And when has pulling Cousin'G into your schemes ever not bitten someone in the ass on this show? It's hurt Tom.

It's hurt Ken in the past. Like, never tell. Greg anything because he's going to sell you out as fast as possible. So, like, the idea that people have that, like, Greg is going to be the one on top at the end of the day. This is something that has been, like, a, you know, a fan theory, if you want to call it. That, yeah, from the beginning. That feels, I'm not saying it feels likely.

It just feels more on the table than it has the past few weeks, the fact that Ken let him in at all here. And it feels like a mistake to ever let Greg. There's two paths, right? He brings him in because he needs. somebody that's not inner circle, but somebody that he at least has a background with. The other thing is he knows Greg's a fucking scumbag who's already leaked a bunch of stuff. And if you're going to leak stuff, you might as well leak the, you might as well have the person who's going to leak it anyway, leak the stuff.

So I don't know. Sean, what do you think out of those two options? Why did, because it was curious that they picked Greg out of anybody, right? They could have used Frank. They could have used whoever. I don't know. I didn't understand that part. Yeah, I mean, he has no real power, but he does have a lot of information.

we saw earlier in the episode that when he comes to chat with Tom, he knows that there's a kill list. I mean, what Greg tells Tom is effectively right. He shares the gossip about. So how does he know that? Because he's so innocent seeming and just is willing to talk to anyone. And we see him later. He's at the tent party dancing with Eba, having a good time, you know, making connections

with people. He's a younger guy who's, you know, seems harmless, I think, in some ways. so people probably tell him things. And also, he's this waste station for information because he's not going to be over the deal in any meaningful way. He's almost tangentially related to them in some ways. So he seems like someone who would be close

but not inside of anything. And like you guys are saying, he's done this before, right? This is almost like part of his job, actually, to be trading information on a regular basis. So I got it. I thought it was actually one of the few smart moves that Kendall made.

Unfortunately, too many of the moves that he made. Someone like Mattson is too sophisticated to not sniff out right away. Like almost every step of the way, he knew what they were trying to pull. I'm not saying that, like, Greg on paper is a bad choice. I'm just saying Greg historically. He just narks on people all the time. Like, if you tell him anything, he's going to narc to the other thing,

as soon as he sees the wind blowing the other direction. And so I just think it's dangerous to let him in. But we'll see how it all pans out. Jess, Jess, loyal, right or die. As far as I know, Jess is here till the, better end. But Greg, I wouldn't, I would not bring him into the quad squad at all. Quad squad. All right. So if we're handing out Olympic medals, Hugo, congratulations. It wasn't a Hugo episode, but it was, he's definitely in the mix. He was one of the winners. You're saying he

almost got the bronze, like those darn tenths of a second? He was like, one tenth away from the bronze. I thought Mattson was the big winner of the episode just because I finally get the character. now. And we talked about how we thought the Adrian Brody character worked a little bit better than Madsen did. This is more fully developed. Even when I watched it the first time yesterday and I was still like, I don't, I can't totally get this character.

And then I watched it a second time this morning. I was like, oh, I get it. There's just a lot going on, a lot of nuance and a lot of intention that I think is, is pretty thick. But they, now I get that character. So now I'm interested to see, I mean, what do you think? over under one and a half more episodes Mattson's going to be in.

Would you go under or over, Joanna? I think two or three at least. Something like that. I do. So you think he's almost all the way to the end? Again, I don't know. We haven't seen anything. All we've seen is sort of like the rest of the season on trailer that they put out.

I know he's in New York at one point. He's in Shiv and Tom's apartment at one point. There's like a party in their apartment. So maybe that's just one more episode. But I feel like he's going to be here, goading them for the rest of the season. As soon as the episode was over, I agree that I felt like Madsen was the centerpiece of the episode. And Scars Guard, I was like, man, this guy is like, why is his, why is he not bigger?

Like, his, his, his, his, his, his filmography is kind of funny. You know, he's been on a series of HBO series over the years. Obviously, he's done work in Sweden. And he's been like the center of a lot of attempts at big movies, you know, like he was in a Tarzan movie. You know, he was in the Northman last year. Like, he's, he's been in some big projects, but he's really, really funny. I mean, he slotted right into the tone of this show perfectly against Roman and Kendall for the bulk of the episode, who are, you know, like the alpha and the omega of the writing staff of this show. So I just felt like myself, I was like, why is Alexander Scarsgard not, I don't know, Tom Hardy or something?

You know, like not like on that level of like well-known beloved actor. And he makes weird, fun, weird, odd bald Tom Hardy has choices and some of the other films that he makes, you know, outside of your Tarzans. And I think for people who didn't watch True Blood, like if you, like just, that was his big break, right? And if you just look at True Blood from the outside, you're like, oh, I think I get it. Blonde abs, I kind of get it. But if you watch that show, he walked in at the end of like season one, I think,

or early season two, I think it was at the season one, and just sort of took over a show that was supposed to belong to two other lead actors. And it just became like the Eric Northman show. And that has to do with that charisma. And the way that he dialed it in, into this like really keep you on your back foot. You don't know what he's going to do. Grinning sort of trickster bullshit that he does in this episode.

So good. I think if I'm giving out prizes for both acting and like character, I would say it's predictably I'm putting Shiv and Sarah Snook on the list. But I would say acting. No, she's on there too. You know. Yeah. And I think Shiv was the other, yeah, jumped out.

Yeah, Scars card. I'm looking at it's IMDB. Like 2012 Battleship, that was supposed to be a massive movie and people just didn't like it. It was like one of the first CGI gone horribly wrong movies, but that was supposed to be a massive movie. True Blood, as Joanna said, like some people loved it. Some people didn't watch it. Like it was happening in an alternate universe. My mom loved that show.

Go figure. Then I think, wasn't it? Was it Zoolander 2? Oh no. I guess he wasn't in that one. There was another one somewhere in the mid. He's in Zoolander too. He's in it, but he wasn't like the focal point of it.

It's just the other one that he was really big in was Big Little Lies and he played like a horrible character in that show, right? So my experience with him is really just like cute. Battleship was a weird movie. I didn't watch True Blood, Big Little Lies. And then Mattson are like kind of my four entry points with him. He's done a lot of TV though. Like he was also, he was in the CBS Viacom. The Stand adaptation, he played Randall Flagg.

That's like a huge character in the Stephen King world. He was on the little drummer girl, the AMC adaptation. He just hasn't, and he's done a lot of independent stuff. Like he's in Diary of a Teenage Girl. He was just in this movie Infinity Pool that came out this year. This very strange horror movie from David Cronerberg's son, Brandon. He is like very adventurous. But he has also been cast in conventional leading man stuff where you're like,

okay, let's build our franchise around this guy. And he never quite hit. But the thing for me is that like there's a reason. that, like, Hater and Armisen picked him for a couple of documentary now episodes. Like, he's really funny. He's got, he's really funny in a long shot. Like, he's got a great sense of humor. It seems like he would have been an amazing Mission Impossible seven villain.

Like, the guy who's, like, cruises foil. Like, or, like, you know, diehard nine. One of those. Definitely, like, Alan Rickman type. Yeah. Yeah. I recommend if people want to see, like, more funny stars. I really recommend The War on Everyone, which isn't a perfect film, but a film that I found

him to be perfect in. And that's like his charisma charm on full display. I really loved that film experience watching him in that. And again, like he's just not afraid to try things, which I really, you know, like it's, it's sort of like the Robert Pattinson thing where I think he could coast on like this big vampire role that broke him into the mainstream and just do to complete normie stuff. He could just do battleship to this, to that, to the other thing. But he's taking calls from more interesting filmmakers and building a more interesting career as a real estate. result. Can I talk about a visual thing and then a lingering thing that I have a question about

in the show? One is, I love to pay attention to the costumes. So many characters on the Waystar Royco side are wearing brown in this episode, which is historically Kendall's color, and a ton of the little attendant lords are wearing brown in a way that they don't usually. like black and blue was Logan's color, but brown is Kendall's color. So I thought it was interesting that they're all like sort of dressing themselves like their current Lord and Master. And then the other thing is, again, we don't know what's the shape of the rest of the season. We have some ideas, but we don't know. But I was reminded by someone that there are two potential things out there lingering.

There's the book that Jessica Hex character was writing about the Roy family. And there's also the curse of the Roy's pop. that hopped up at the end of last season. So, like, are either... And now that Logan is no longer there to be like... It's like when Tywin Lannister died on Game of Thrones. Now, like, the scary head of the family is no longer there to protect. How much faster do these book projects or podcast projects come out with all the family secrets

with, like, stuff about Connor's mom, et cetera, et cetera. Now, like, Kendall O'Kade putting that stuff in the press at the end of last week to Hugo. but like, you know, we'll see. Yeah, Willa, the truth about Willa, who knows? The truth about Willa, she's fucking awesome. You do you, Willa. She rules. Just criminally underused in this episode.

I don't even think she had a line. They just kind of showed her looking frantic. Well, she was like telling Connor not to let the kids, like the other kids, bully him. She was being supportive to Connor, you know. I actually felt like there was a scene missing with Connor at the, I feel like they film more and they must have it for time or for space because it was just that was the least Connor I think has ever been

in an episode. I feel like there were earlier seasons where he was fully not in episodes, but this season, yeah, but I mean like if he's in an episode, you're just, you know, he was like in the episode less than 40 characters that we know. All right, I'm starting a new segment because we only have five episodes left. You guys are going to hate it. Oh, God. At the end of every podcast, we have to decide who's going to be standing at the end.

Everybody's got to make a pick. You can only pick one person. Who wins? Define standing. What does that mean to win? Who's going to be in charge? Who is the actual succeeder? Who's going to be?

And you can change every episode. Every episode you can change your pick based on what we've seen. But right now, five episodes left, who wins? And what do you win? I don't even know. I think the kids lose the company and Mattson has it. Sean hates this. I know.

That's why I want to do it. Sean is like squirming. Well, is it okay if I say Carl and Greece? No, it's not okay. Somebody ends up with Waystar and ATN and all this stuff. Who's it going to be? Let me just say quickly. One of my favorite moments in the episode is at the very, very end,

when Carl finds out that he's being severed, he says, let the good times roll. And I loved it because he is delighted. I think that the person who is being set up to succeed the most. And I don't think this is necessarily a definition of happiness, but I think Shiv is the person who is the most likely to be, had to have an opportunity

to be happy. Well, that's a different question, and I'm, I would happily co-sign your ship answer. It's just like textbook. Classic Sean, just being nuanced, classical, Sean, just searching for the truth of the art. Ducking a black and white question and just throwing a shitload of nuance at us.

I don't think anybody's going to win, Bill. Like, no one is going to win. Yeah. Somebody's going to end up in charge. No, I do not agree. I don't think so. Maybe they will, but I don't think so. I don't think that that's the kind of show that they're making.

I think what they're trying to show us is that anybody who tries to be in charge of this sort of thing, if they do in fact succeed as an absolutely destroyed awful person, that was the whole point of the Mattson thing. Madsen is an absolute lunatic. He's sending frozen blood to women that he wants to have sex with. What a psychopath. So don't do that. If you get, don't. How much blood have you actually?

sending people have you put blood in the mail? How do you freeze it? Do you just put in the freezer? Is it like a different kind of freezer? Do you imagine like cute like little cubes? Like a half a liter in cubes?

Yeah. I have a prediction and you guys are going to be jealous of it. Okay. Oh my God. I think Madsen is going to push towards Shiv running everything as part of the condition of the thing.

But doesn't know that she's 20 weeks pregnant yet. Oh, nice. Yeah. And he's kind of a shithead and a monster. Yeah. And that will be a swerve. So I think where we're leading toward is Shiv feeling like this is going awesome.

Things are going my way. I'll have Tom, my father of my child, possible like puppet still. And I can just put him in charge ATN. I'll cut out the legs of my brothers and they can work for me. And then, you know, maybe episode seven, Mattson finds out. Shiv is with child. Can I drop a couple Sarah Snook quotes from the official podcast last week? These are not spoilers.

These are just sort of like her assessment of her character. When asked whether or not she's a killer, she says, I think she is a killer long term. I feel like she's the most like Logan. So in the end, will inevitably be a killer, maybe more than Kendall is. And then asking about her feelings about being a mother, she says, she has some pretty complicated feelings about becoming a mother. She's in some way feigning indifference because it's one of those things that's almost too hard to face. She doesn't like dealing with emotions.

it's easier to repress things. There's a competitiveness against her feelings with her own mother and her desire to be better than her own mother's maternal qualities, but a fear that she probably won't be able to do that. And a fear and a frustration, this is to Bill's point, that all the things she's working toward and aiming toward, she may not be able to achieve now because she will be a mother as well as a businesswoman,

and how do these two things coalesce in her life? Interesting. My money's on cousin Greg, if I had to pick. I think like that would be the classic Jesse Armstrong move where the kids just basically flame throw each other, they ruin everybody's chances, and Greg is put in as this token CEO, and if you go back and watch the pilot,

that was why the pilot plays out like it does with grit. That's why Greg is way more important than the pilot than he should be. That's a good theory anyway. I like it. I think that it's not beyond the realm of possibility in my opinion. And that's what, like, I had Greenwald on my podcast yesterday talking about like the great shows in succession. And Greenwald said that Jesse Armstrong, like,

He's ready for Jesse Armstrong to really go for it. Like, he thinks he wants to just go there. Oh, it's not going to be sunshine and rainbows. No, it is not. It's going to be way darker than maybe people realize. So cousin Greg being in charge of stuff, I think would fit the bill because he's a moron. I think no matter what, as the founding CEO of the Shivroy fan club, this has been a good week for my people.

She's back. A good shiv week. She's back. got a little flirty with Mattson. It was like season when Shiv was back. Kept waiting for the actor from Willis Play to come in.

Always been team snook. It was tough seeing her fall down the stairs last week. That felt like Brock Bottom. Let's Knuck, man. All right, this podcast was produced by Kai Grady. We are halfway through the final season of a show, I think it's starting to set in.

I'm starting to feel like in like round two of the football playoffs when it's like, oh man, there's only three weekends left. This sucks. That's a great. Comparison. That is exactly what it's like, where I'm like, oh, man, so then I got to go three quarters of a year without getting this. And now this is it. Nothing ever except Disgusting Brothers spin-off, which I'll be writing and directing, which I'm excited about. I'm here on break-d-d-dews. Internet melting down over the idol, which is going to be the funniest thing of the summer. People are going to lose their fucking minds on the idol. It's going to be great. I can't wait. Looking forward to it. Can I shout out that, you know, as you mentioned earlier, maybe I don't get the nuances of your sports analogy, but I did feel represented by Roman when he said your little little kicky-ball. team did a win.

That's one for me. I have my sports analogies and you have your whole the ringerverse stuff that goes, that 99% of that goes over my head. You need to start making really arcane Star Wars metaphors comparing to succession, Joanna, so you can have your power. Yeah, we should launch a spin-off pod.

Yeah, we just make metaphors that neither one of us will get and see how long we can go in the episode. All right, thanks to Kai. We will see you next week on the prestige TV pod. Don't forget to listen to Joanna talking yellow jackets with Mallory. I'm three episodes behind. We like this show this year? How are we doing? I'm a big fan, but some people aren't loving it. I'll be curious to see when you catch up. Also, of course, Sean talking to Bill Hader about Barry. Prestige feed is...

Oh, yeah, and Sean talking to Bill Hader about Barry. Yeah, very heartwarming season of Barry, season four. It's hilarious. Hororiously funny. It's really great. All right. See you next week.