The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Succession’ Season 4, Episode 6 Precap

Episode Date: April 28, 2023

Chris and Wos start the pod by discussing how Kendall Roy’s transparent fronting was consistently being tested during the Scandinavian trip, and then give flowers to Alexander Skarsgard's excellent portrayal of Lukas Matsson. They later dive into banquet etiquette, the glaring culture clash between the European and American corporate factions, and how Matsson utilized his imposing presence throughout the retreat (6:04). Next, they attempt to decipher the intricate commentary and interactions between the major players, shine a light on the Tom and Shiv saga, and share their favorite one-liners from Episode 5 (16:48). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Wosny Lambre Associate Producer: Chris Sutton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Sean Fennessey, one of the hosts of the Prestige TV podcast. HBO's Barry is back for a fourth and final season. And that means I'll be back recapping the show with co-creator and star Bill Hader to dive deep on the themes, scenes, and major moments in the series. Bill will provide insight into how every episode was made and why it's ending. New Prestige TV Barry recaps will go live every Sunday night when the episode ends. So make sure you're subscribed to the Prestige TV podcast wherever you get your podcasts. You said this place was steps from the water. We just haven't found the steps yet.

How much did we save? Enough. Enough to get lost. Or you could book a stay with Hilton. Welcome to your oceanfront room. Just steps from the water. The Hilton sale is on now. Book on Hilton.com or the Hilton app

and save up to 20% to get the stay you expected. When you want savings, not surprises. It matters where you stay. Hilton for the stay. Hello and welcome to the Wringer's Prestige TV. podcast. I'm Chris Ryan. I'm joined by Big Waswaz. What's up, man? I'm good, man. Ready to bleed to Swede, baby.

Hey, let's be real with each other for a second, dude. Big, big, big happenings this week. And I just wanted to say congrats. Because it looks like Manchester City is in the driver's seat for the Premier League. And maybe people don't know this about Waz, but he believes in the

underdog. He's a little guy, guy. You can hear him in some of his political podcast. He believes in the workers. You know what I mean? Listen. Hold on, Chris. Listen, you know I got to go for those scrappy underdogs up north in England, okay? That's right.

They're not those fancy posh Londoners. The Russ belt, baby. The rust belt of England. Fly over country. So, Was loves Manchester City and all that the benevolent shake Mansour has given them. That's right. And for people who don't know what I'm talking about, Manchester City is owned by, essentially, it's a... The Emirates.

They're owned by Abu Dhabhabi. Yeah. And, you know, a lot of hostility for this arrangement in England and in world football fans, you know, around the globe where it's like, man, this is this is financial doping. These guys can just buy whoever they want. These guys can just do whatever they want. But if you just look back throughout the history of both English football and global sport, it was ever thus. It's always been somebody with more money than somebody else taking care of their players and buy more of them when they need them. And I couldn't help but think of this arrangement over this last episode of Succession that we had with kind of a new money, a new idea of how to do things in Lucas Mattson, this tech billionaire, this visionary iconoclast, who's kind of throwing the remaining Roy's, the Roy's siblings off their square as they try to push this deal through or not. So, Was, what did you make of, I don't know, I wanted to talk to you a little bit about, like the kind of similarities and differences between like these tech guys and then the old media

that they're overthrowing. You know what's so beautiful too. I thought you were going to start with the takeover needle drop. I'll get to it. I'll get to it. I'll get to it. I'll get to big deal drop. I don't really care.

I don't really care unless it's be single. That was crazy. That was crazy. But yo, so, you know, the coolest part about this, right? This whole episode to me, just, just brilliant. storytelling. That first scene when Kendall's walking into the office, if anybody goes back and watches that, he's not just walking. He's gliding. He is strutting. He is like, he's got his perfect suit on. Like, he is like, I am it. He's in a movie about himself. Yes, 100%. And he's

ready for his moment. And then gradually as the episode goes, you realize that Kendall Roy is completely out of his depth. And everybody knows it. Like, Everybody who interacts with him on a business sense. Every time Schiff's like, what's this stuff in the, like, media that only benefits you and makes you look good? Shits on dad obviously makes no mention of me and my involvement and blah, blah, blah. Like, I wonder who would be behind this? And Ken's like, I don't know. Yo, Hugo, we're going to cut whoever is.

Everybody is just reading this dude. Yeah. But he starts the episode on such a high. Like, rewatching it is just like, this man. just knows he is Gordon Gecko. He just knows it as he's walking into the office for the first time as CEO. It's like as soon as he gets around other people. Yes. That's when the, that's when the illusion starts to go away. But when he's on his own and he's kind of seeing himself in the back of the car listening to, listening to the blueprint driving through New York City seemingly with no

traffic, you know what I mean? It's just he's in a movie. But when as soon as like he goes in and Romans got his A team and everybody's got their people with them and everybody's got their little questions and their little digs. It all starts to crumble and then they go on a little retreat to Scandinavia where he's really confronted with that dude. Hold on. Before we even get to Madsen who Scars Guard, chef's kiss, get his Emmy real or Golden Globe has it or whoever, get his reel ready. Yeah, this will qualify for Emmys.

So I'm sure that it will get quite a few. Get that man's real ready because he delivered this episode. But just one more beat on Ken when he's in there and he's there like, yo, the Swede wants us to go up to Norway. And Ken was like, yo, why don't we just do some like a fake powerplay? Like, should we be going up to Norway? And Jerry's like, yeah, in order to get the deal done that we want, yeah, we should go meet the guy that's going to buy the company.

Like she says it quite gently And then he's like oh yeah yeah of course of course Of course It's just like yo Kendall has no idea What he's doing but yeah That that was just hilarious But yeah they get up there And Madsen is just

He is big dog in them all over the place Yeah they went into the chase center on that one man More like the Oracle Honestly yeah Hostile hostile environment And everybody is just sizing them up been looking at them like, these guys are chumps and marks and we're going to destroy these people. Have you ever been to an event or a business meeting where you walk in, you're probably hungry,

and that spread is out, that all you can eat like pastry and, you know, salads spread is out. Maybe they got a little Mendocino farms, maybe they got a little lemonade, whatever it might be. And you're like, damn, I am hungry. But then you start thinking about getting like cuss-coose in your teeth or, or like, you know, being the guy who's got like almond croissant powdered sugar all over his face, like a Cokehead or something like that. And you're like, I don't know. And then you just stand there starving with this entire spread of food.

I just did this the other day where I was like, I'm not touching it. You know what's so crazy, Chris, for me is because I'm such a greedy bastard. I will consciously not eat immediately when I get somewhere because I know I can't stop myself. Yeah. And then you're going to like start putting cookies in your purse. It's just going to be a ridiculously piled plate. And it's just like, you know what? That can wait.

You're going to get to it eventually. Make the rounds, do your thing. Find a corner to be a complete hog about it at some point later. But I try as soon as I get somewhere and I see the spread. I will eye it, but I will refrain because I know myself. My grandmother used to be a real big, you know, grab free slices of bread stuff, like, you know, at the buffet. And I always used to be like, damn, this is like, we. got bread at home and my mom was just like, she lived through the depression, man.

You can't really tell her shit when there's free bread. Yeah, it would be a missed opportunity in her eyes not to do so. But yeah, Tom, of course, because him being the most, you know, culturally aware when it comes to corporate environments and norms and all of that stuff, he's just like, bro, I'm not eating this food as soon as I get here. I got to be on my peas and cues. And even though he is on his toes, he gets. sliced and diced so thoroughlessly and ruthlessly.

I love the culture clash. I loved the kind of like these people stuffed into their expensive American suits, but they're really crass language and their crass way of looking at the world, being confronted with this sort of quasi-socialist, but obviously elitist Scandinavian corporate culture where everybody's wearing Patagonia or like the next generation of Patagonia and are just living in these gleaming glass and steel caves carved out of mountains. And like all the fucking ATN people are just like,

yeah, I must look like an absolute hog to you. But like Jerry says, it's like we're killers. You know what I mean? Like these people all have public health care. Yeah, they come from a society with a social safety net. Pussies! You mean if you lose your job, you won't die and whittle away on Skid Row in your country.

country. Get out of here. Come on. That's, that's heat culture, man. That's how you build a dynasty. Yeah. Again, this show, just amazing cultural commentary always and not always in the most obvious ways. But yeah, it's a dope culture

clash. And again, it's these dudes playing these dudes, meaning Roman and Ken, dressing up as businessmen and Madsen being the real freaking deal. And like you said,

the clash of old and new media, right? Old and new financial dominance, just their cultures are different, right? I was watching real time with Bill Maher last Friday. Are you a regular viewer? I am not. One of my close friends happened to be on the program, my man, Danny Bessner.

And he was like, you know, like our old, not that we have love for our old, oligarchs like the robber barons and jp morgan and all those guys but at least they'd be like give the plebs of museum a public park like by the pittsburgh pirates exactly yeah they understood like they had some sense of you know the social contract like yeah they're so uncultured and unmoored like give them something they're just uh the irish and the jews downtown we can't even do this up in park Avenue, right? Like, they had this sense that they had to lift these folks up to their station as problematic as that concept is, whereas these tech guys are just, there is none of that

humanity. They're just trying to figure out a way to like replace human blood. That's it. You know what I mean? They're like, how can I like upgrade the human nervous system? When you get down to it, this is this television show, it's just a series of conversations. You don't have a lot of action set pieces or anything like that. And one thing that this show does really well is show how power dynamics within a conversation can shift like really like that and for for whatever reason and i thought it was so awesome when we see mattson as he emerges like you know with this big i do did you even catch like what he was wearing or did it seem like notable at all like to you this kind of the hoodie that he was yeah the hoodie yeah it felt

like he was kind of wearing like a cloak almost like he was like a fucking seth lord or something Exactly. And he came out and the entire show, the entire episode, I mean, Mattson is just like physically towering over those guys. Like he is sitting in a throne on, like when they're meeting with him the first time. He's basically in that, in that sofa that's back, but his background is just the mountains and he looks as big as the mountains. And then he meets them on a mountain and is like greeting them, but he seems taller than the mountain itself. And he's always, he's like physically imposing himself on Roman,

who's obviously like Karen Culkin's not very big dude, and he makes Kendall seem small. The cool thing is, is that when he meets with Shiv, they shoot it so that Lucas is sitting and Shiv stands so that she has like this sort of like power over him. And I just thought that all these little like things were so interesting throughout the episode.

What I wanted to ask you was whether you thought that his courtship of Shiv as an ally was a bit or, was it real? Like, is he real? Like, all that, like, I freeze my blood. I'm going to bring down my boundaries, get closer to me stuff. Is that real or not? I think every time somebody's corresponding with the kids, they're playing with them. Yeah. They are, they're, they, nobody takes them seriously. Nobody thinks they're capable of anything meaningful, but, you know, throwing up on themselves. And to me, that was him just playing her, right? He wants her to think, like, Like, what this episode sets up is that Madsen is going to be the new Logan, right, for the rest of the season.

Everybody understands their proximity to him is what will give them power and status within this, you know, environment. And so he knows that she knows that he's the big dog. And she kind of, she watched him basically just like that second meeting. where, you know, Tom gets destroyed, then Greg D. Egg walks up and he's actually... At least he read it. Yeah. You know, I don't know that the economist should be your sole source on, you know, the French economy and the future of its citizens. And its birth rate, yeah.

Yeah. But, like, you know, at least Greg's like, no, I've actually read something, you know. And then, of course, Ken and Rome walk over and they get destroyed again. And she's like, man, this guy has something. to him. He's like really powerful, right? He's really magnetic in that way. Yeah, he's holding court. He's sitting there. He's got his crew around him. He's like alienating the Americans by speaking Swedish to his friends. It's obviously not kind. You know what it's obviously not something that he wants them to understand. And then I, yeah, you're absolutely right. Like he is filling this role

that Logan filled this kind of like breakneck speed, iconoclastic, physically intimidating in the way that Logan used to be physically intimidating and his pomp. Like, it's just really, it's really something to watch like this dude just emerge from Logan's literal, like the spectral shell that he filled. And now there's this new Swedish dude. And it's also cool because, you know, this show has had a series of guys like Mattson in this role, like Josh Aronson, the Adrian Brody character, Sandy Furness, like Stewie to some extent.

Like, there have been other antagonists over the course of the series. And it's really neat that they decided, yo, we're going to stick with. Lucas. We're going to stick with Scars Guard and we're going to develop this dude because you really do start to like just get how zany this guy is. Do you think that when Roman congratulates him on his football club, do you think he's like we're talking champions league level or do you think we're talking like Swedish like domestic league? So this is such a fascinating question on so many grounds because when I when I heard him say that what popped up into my mind. was the Super League.

Oh, yeah. And Big Dan, Big Dan stepped up and was like, hey, man, listen, if these jokers want to break up the beautiful tradition of, you know, stuff like the Premier League and La Liga and, you know, all of these other great European leagues,

I'll be more than happy to step up and own a club and keep things the way they are. And I remember thinking to myself, I was like, damn, Big Dan got it like that. that he can cop of soccer club and somebody that I'm friends with told me, yes. He got it like that.

He could get that. So like the big sweet owed in the soccer club immediately made me think of that. But that, I think that's a Swedish club. For sure. Probably.

I mean, we have to remember that Roman bought a club too in Scotland. He bought a club for his father and it was the wrong team, I believe. Yeah.

And because he called it like a little kickball a team or whatever, that made me think it wasn't one of the big dogs that might play in the champions leave. Yeah, it wasn't like, oh, you have

did you buy Arsenal? Yeah. Right, right. It might have been in a league on par with our boy Haralabob's team out in Spain, which is in like third division. Spain. Yeah, second division, Spain. And then Scars Guard himself is a huge fan.

I still can't remember the name of which team he's, but he's like a big Swedish football fan. Snoring, gasping during sleep, feeling fatigued, ask your doctor about Zebbound, terseptite, the first and only FDA approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and adults with obesity. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea,

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With up to 60% off hotels and up to 50% off flights, you can book everything you need for your next adventure. Don't just dream about that next trip. Book it with Priceline. Download the Priceline app or visit Priceline.com and book your next trip today. Let's talk a little bit about this collision though. of the kinds of things that Lucas is telling these dudes about ATN and about Waystar, I mean, which is essentially that you're a part store, you know?

And we've been kind of sitting with these guys for three and a half seasons, and we're supposed to draw all these conclusions that we're watching essentially this, this like mirror image of Fox and the Murdox. And then it's regarded with this sort of fear, but also loathing and maybe a little bit of knickering because of the kind of stuff that they make. And I thought it was interesting to hear that put in almost apolitical terms. It was more just like fundamentally what you guys have is a bunch of like pipes. And I'm just going to strip the whole fucking thing down to this to the to the studs. I mean, isn't that what a hedge fund does? Like, isn't that what what venture capital does?

It's what tech does. They just want the base. They want your users. That's it. They don't need anything else, right? Like they don't see, again, we talk about silly pie in the sky things like social good of an informed citizenry. Like that would never come up in conversation with the big suite. Shiv will performatively say this kind of thing because she just has a personal distaste for that, for, you know, a sort of hyper right-wing nationalist bent of leadership. So she, you know, she reflexively is against that.

But it's not because, you know, she cares about the well-being of the body politic. I mean, give me a freaking break. But this guy just sees it for what it is, right? This is not something that serves hundreds of millions of people to their benefit. There's just another way to make money. That's it. I was joking around about Manchester City and being like this New Guard versus Oval Guard situation, both in sports and in media.

Like when I first started working, I guess, I don't even know what we called it media back then. I mean, I didn't. I was like, I'm a journalist or I'm a critic or whatever. And I would write for magazines and, you know, you would sell reviews or pieces to these magazines, but those magazines would publish at most once every two weeks or once a week if it was like the Village Voice.

And then like your spins and your faders and stuff will come out, you know, once a month. And that was like a very humane work schedule for the most part. And the thing that you've seen is like technology came into what we thought of as like, journalism or media back then is scale. Like everything is about how much, how fast, how many. And of course, like, those were concerns back in the early 2000s,

as they were in the 1950s and 60s or whatever. But the way it's talked about is a little bit different. You know, and I thought it was crucial that Lucas says he's going to take ATN and he's going to make it IKEA to fuck. Because that's looking at something that is like, your opinion may vary on what the media does, but it is like a skill and a thing that people have practiced for a long time.

And he's like, it's a fucking chair. It's a sofa. Like I will reskin it. I will make it efficient. And it's like, I think he even says like super big, Bloomberg, gray, IKEA to fuck. Like those are just fucking keywords.

Those aren't real like ways of running a media business. But it's so interesting to hear him articulate. calculate it that way. Yeah, again, because he's coming from it from a different angle, right? I think Logan liked his news empire because of its ability to shape stuff. Like, he wants to shape culture. He wants to shape power. He wants to shape the dynamic in which we live.

Madsen doesn't have, he doesn't have those desires. So much of what he cares about is just bloodless, right? And it's interesting to show. And the show is showing that, right? Like the idea that he's getting them to come two days after their dad dies. But also surprisingly kind of savvy on the human level. And what I mean by that is, again, the way they're positioning him as the new Logan, when he tells Roman and Ken, your dad would be embarrassed by you because he wants to cut them deep.

But with Shiv, who he wants to bring close, he says, You remind me of your dad. Yes. You know how to take a joke. It's the only thing those three people care about equally. Is there the concept of their father's approval now that their father's not there, it's the concept of seeing themselves in their father's image then. You know, it's like, what can I do to be as much like dad?

What would dad have done? And what can I do to keep my piece of what dad built? Yeah, that's the long and the short of him. So, yeah, as bloodless as the guy is, he does have these moments of, if you will, emotional intelligence, right? Understanding what makes people tick and knowing what they want ultimately,

which I think is the most brilliant part of the episode, how the quote-unquote wins and losses happen in this episode. I just thought this show is genius and brilliant in how they do all of this. Yeah, and we're so used to seeing it be Kendall who melts down. And in some ways, he is slowly melting down because he's undoing this deal because he can't stop himself from either self-sabotage or delusions of greatness. But it's Roman who really shorts out. It's Roman who, you know, and he says on the mountain when he goes and sort of berates Lucas while he's taking a piss, like he's like, if you tell anybody I did this, I'm just going to say it was a negotiating tactic. And maybe it is, but also fuck you.

it's like Roman's the one who Lucas really gets under his skin. But here's the funny thing. If it was actually a negotiating tactic, it worked as one. But however, when I say wins and losses, right? I think what happens during that conversation at the top of that mountain is that Roman can actually convey to this dude that they are stupid enough to try to tank this deal because they're stupid enough to think they could step into their father's shoes. And once he realizes that,

that because they think not doing this deal at all, they don't actually care about this money for real, and they're dumb enough to do that, he realizes he has to make the deal, he has to make them an offer that they can't refuse, thereby beating them. Right? So he loses on the money,

but he's like, you fucking idiots, you let me have a win. I get to take this from you. Yeah. So negotiation-wise, I paid more than I wanted to for it. But you know what? I come out of this feeling good because I fucked you guys. It's the only thing he's really interested in is taking the thing that they want. And so when it's just going to be, I'm buying everything but ATN, it's like 144 or whatever.

The episode ends. They get him up to 187 or whatever in the bidding. And then he calls on the plane and he's like 192 or whatever his top bid is. but the entire point of it is that in that first negotiation he puts ATN back into the deal he sees that it freaks them out but he also sees that Kendall like is

interested in taking in selling all of it or at least wants to hear the number but almost like because he knows he can then tank the deal more easily and then as soon as they get up on the top of that mountain and he realizes oh no these kids really want to tank this deal he's like the only thing I can do to beat them now is to blow

their boards doors off by making this huge, this huge offer. I thought that that was pretty fascinating. I wanted to ask you a couple more things. One is about the Tom Shiv stuff because they're kind of like orbiting one another. They can never truly get away from whether, what did you think of their relationship in this episode?

50 shades of gray or like 50 shades of red since is Chavon involved? Like, dude, They only like the only time Chavon responds is when she thinks like this dude actually has a spine. And now he can only spine up but so far, right? Yes. She can only deal with some level of pushback. But even Chavon realizes it's not that fun to just kick a dead horse.

You know, like there needs to be some kind of pushback. And she's enjoying that. And, you know, again, because now she has, she's closer to the power circle with Madsen, she can, you know, she can save Tom. She can keep Carolina on. She can keep Jerry on. Yeah. But the whole thing with Tom, I think she just finds it just a little bit sexier that he's fighting back. You know, it's kind of, it's weird to watch.

It's a very strange consequence of Logan's passing is that Tom is now almost like an independent an actor. You know what I mean? Like, he's not actually like groveling because I think he just assumes he's out. You know what I mean? Like, I think like when Shiv comes up to him at the end there and it's like time to tell to tell Sid she's out, it's just like, oh, he's got this reprieve from his death sentence. Yeah. And the thing, but the thing too is I think she realizes that Tom is useful. Even though he betrayed her ultimately with Roman. She's carrying his baby. Yeah. She's carrying his baby. And also she said in a.

that conversation with Madsen, something that she refused to say to Tom. She was like, I crushed him. I really hurt him. Then he really hurt me. She admitted to such. So like there's like a sort of growth there where it's like, yeah, yes, he is the father of my child. But also like I kind of did him dirty.

I did him dirty. I did him dirty. And so I can bring him back in the fold. He's been pretty loyal outside of when I just kicked him to death. So I love the fact that this show is now about. whether or not these two dimwits can successfully tank a deal to their own benefit? Dude, that is the ultimate message of this episode. Even when they lose, they win.

I know. I know. Because they really are stupid enough to think they should be the successors and are able to effectively communicate that to Madsen, he's like, I'm going to make them richer. Yeah. Well, it's the same thing that what Madison's doing to them, they're doing to this company. every time they're told they can't have something or that it's over and they can just move on now.

You can just have the hundreds. You could just have Pierce. You could just have Pierce and ATN. They keep fucking changing the parameters where they're like, no, I need the whole thing now. We need to tank it. It needs to be ours. I'm not really sure.

I'd have to go back and kind of like sort this out. But what do you think it is is that they continue to keep Shiv on the outside of this. Do you know what I mean? Because it's really, it's been this co-CEO's thing. and even though Shiv wants to get access to everything, they're obviously holding out on her in a big way. Do you think it's just you can't have siblings

without sibling rivalry? Yeah, I think they legitimately think Shiv sucks. We know you do. Well, I have my own reasons for that. But like they, for whatever their reasons are, because like, because Candle's like, yeah, Pinky's not up to the task.

And Romans like, of course not. Like he says it's so sure. They just know for whatever twisted reason in their mind, they just know amongst each other like, Shiv's not cut out for this. I don't know what their reasoning is or why they're dumb enough to think that they're somehow any more qualified than she is.

But they've, for whatever, it hasn't really been explained that their consensus that Shiv is, you know, completely incompetent and can't be trusted to be part of what they're trying to do. Okay. Yeah. I mean, as a only child, dude, what do you think is going on with that? Because I don't understand that. I mean, I think they ultimately... Is it because she's a girl? I think it might be some of that. It might be some stuff that goes back to their childhoods,

or it might just be like, I mean, like they say in the room at that after the wake when they're kind of dividing up the empire and they're just like, three doesn't make sense, but two does. Says fucking who. I mean, like, that's just some arbitrary thing that they make up. And the idea that Kendall is somehow a more. viable choice than Shiv is. But, you know, there's the whole thing of Can Pinky Dance and like if Shiv is actually ready for the majors or she's just better at being behind the scenes. Anything else from this episode or

coming up for the next episode that you wanted to hit before we bounce? There was just too many one-liners. There are some too many bangers in this episode. Tom of Chavon. That was amazing when Hugo goes to the Swede.

barely almost meddling but coming up short he said that's almost huge when they go up to Eba and they're like you're looking really well really rested rock steady crew rolling deep

what the fuck are we doing here Kendall Kendall when he says I like running the ship I think we're good at it and I don't want to stop that's the part yes and I don't want to stop

That's the addict Kendall working right there. It's just like, this feels good. Like, there's energy in this. And it's just the same thing with any kind of addiction is like, are you rich enough for it not to be a problem? Yep. That's it. That's it.

All right, Waz, we were produced by Chris Sutton. We'll be back next week. Everybody enjoys succession on Sunday. Bill, Joe, and Sean will be up on Sunday night right after the episode, as will be and Andy on the watch feed. So everybody, have a good weekend. Enjoy the NFL draft. to enjoy playoff basketball, enjoy succession.

It's ringer season right now. Ah, yes, sir. Later.