The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Succession’ Season 4, Episode 6 Recap

Episode Date: May 1, 2023

Bill, Sean, and Joanna are back to break down the sixth episode of ‘Succession’ Season 4. They discuss how this episode effectively satirizes the tech and Hollywood industries, Kendall Roy in rare form onstage, and Lukas Matsson’s strategy to drive a wedge between the Roy siblings. Along the way, they talk about an all-time low for Roman and his destructive impulsiveness as well as Tom’s comeback. They close by questioning the legitimacy of the Living+ product launch and updating their predictions on who will be running Waystar Royco at the end of the season. Hosts: Bill Simmons, Sean Fennessey, and Joanna Robinson Producer: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It's a prestige TV podcast. My name is Bill Simmons here with Sean Fentasy and Joanna Robinson. You can hear Sean on this feed as well, breaking down Barry, the funniest show of all time with Bill Hater. Yeah. Doing that every week,

we put up two episodes on this feed on Sundays. This is episode six of Succession, where we didn't have our usual star director and we didn't have Jesse Armstrong writing. Joanna, was this a B-Team episode? What's going on with this episode? I mean, it wasn't as funny as, Succession can be, and it was longer than a Succession episode usually is, but I really liked it a lot.

I think it moved a lot of pieces around for, you know, people going up, people going down. And I thought there was some fun, like, sharp inside Hollywood humor. Maybe because Jesse isn't a Hollywood guy, he needed to bring someone else in who had more actual bitterness of Hollywood experience to give this episode. Yeah, I thought the first five episodes, were off the charts. And this was just a really good succession episode. So maybe my expectations are too high, Sean.

What do you think? I feel like they're going down the hit list of institutions that they desperately want to satirize before this show has been wrapped up. And they managed to package neatly the world of expanding tech fraudulence and Hollywood simultaneously in one episode, which I really appreciated. And I think, you know, if the characters of this show are going to survive in the aftermath of Logan's death and kind of still have dramatic stakes in an arc. This is like the direction that their characters would go in order to thrive. There's like a telling moment in that

conversation between Jerry and Roman that I'm sure we'll break down quite a bit where she's like, we are over, you know, tech is coming. Like, you know, and they would have to make that pivot if they wanted to survive. So I thought it was like appropriate for the storytelling. It was like a real test of if Kendall and Roman want to be in charge and want to not sell. This is the kind of stuff they'd have to deal with every day, making presentations to investors, firing Hollywood executives. So in that respect, I really liked it. It wasn't joke a minute, but it was high satire, and I appreciated that. Yeah, it was definitely a move, the structure of the season along episode to get us where we're going to need to go for these last four. We start out with Logan,

the ghost of Logan, just looming. We thought we had said goodbye to Brian Cox, Joey, and all of a sudden, he was staring at us to start the show. And of course, he gets mad and starts screaming at a couple people and then his ghost ends up kind of lingering over the show culminating in the kendal the last 20 minutes of this episode is just fantastic um especially thinking it was going to go one direction where they set up when he's like big big big shoes big big and he just keeps saying it and they cut and it's just like oh my god this is going to be the final Kendall meltdown this will be the Kendall meltdown and all Kendall meltdowns he'll never recover from this there's some mechanics and politics with Roman removing himself from the presentation.

I think, what do you think, partly feeling like this was going to be a disaster, but partly feeling like this was a good strategic move for him, it does a 180 as the scene's going. And all of a sudden, he's doing the Living Plus thing. And I'm thinking, like, this is actually pretty good. This sounds solid. And then they cut to some of the people, you know, in the Waystar universe, they're like, whoa, this is good so far.

And by the end of it, he's swimming in the ocean Just like, I fucking did it. I'm Kendall fucking Roy. Did you see the twist coming, Joanna? No, I mean, I was with you. I was like led down the nose of like, wow, Ken's about to tank. And then I mean, maybe I should have known as soon as the flight jackets came out that he was about to soar. No, I mean, I thought that was a really smart.

I think it's really smart to give all, like, we're in episode six of a 10 episode season. I think it's smart to give all these siblings like their win. You know, we were talking about like a potential chiv win last week, a potential can win this week. Does that mean any of them are going to win whatever that means? In the end, it feels early. It feels like everyone's peaking early for a crash. But I love the swimming floating in the ocean. It felt like such a nice inversion of the end of last season of Ken face down in the pool

and all of us being like, is this it for Ken? and he's just buoyed up by the California saltwater. So, yeah, I think the way in which his blatant disrespect for stagecraft and how long it takes to build a house out of brickwork and make clouds happen on demand is like a good cue for us that in the future, Ken doesn't know what he's doing. And also the made-up numbers, which is just being signaled to us as, you know, as Netflix will's knows,

like something that will not sustain you and all the elder statements are turning on the kids. Like this is not going to go well for them in the end, it feels like, but it's nice to give Ken this little uplift of a win. What do you think, Shia? It's nice that Kendall shares a similar strategy to the ringer, which is just unbelievable growth.

You know, that's just what we're about here. I think that, I think it was another indication of something that I really enjoyed about the show. that we've talked about before, which is if the three kids would just get together, they actually would probably kill it because Kendall was really good at this. And Kendall's affinity for MBA buzzwords and dishonesty in the face of math is like a huge skill in the world of tech business. And he, you know, it was, this was like a Steve Jobs moment for him in many ways and seemed like an homage to all of those kind of revolutionary thinkers in

American business in the last 50 years. And if he could be the front man and Shiv could manage relationships and Roman could be kind of crazy idea person, they might actually have something. But I think to answer the question that you asked Joanna, one of the reasons why Roman stepped back is because Shiv drove a wedge between them during the rehearsal. And that was another indication that these three just can't get on the same page. You know, that they're at cross purposes. She felt cut out.

So she's forming this alliance with Mattson on the side. and in doing so, she's following his lead and then trying to break up the plan that Kendall and Roman have, which he obviously sniffed out. So, you know, with all of that in mind, I was kind of proud of Kendall. I kind of enjoyed it, you know, even though it was built on a house of lies, almost literally.

I was trying to think of all the times during the four seasons when he had a chance to do what he did in this episode at the end, that it either got pulled away from him. Like even like the fourth episode of season one, he thinks he's going to give this big speech when his dad's recovering and the speech gets cut away from him and Logan ends up going on stage. So you have that. He thinks in the birthday party episode for him that he's going to do this whole, he's going to descend

from the ceiling and he doesn't get to do that. Over and over again, this is clearly just what he wanted to do to just be Steve Jobs and wave his hands and do the leaning forward clap thing and just talk in his stupid Kendall buzzwords and say and just be completely. full of shit while an audience applauded. Oh, and then there was the other time when he crashed the investor meeting a year ago and went up to the stage. And is there, what other times did he go up in front of people?

I think that's it, right? But I think, I mean, but that was a disaster. Every time it was. So, well, well, there's the time that it's been pulled away from him. So you're like, what if he had gotten to do this? And then there is that meeting last season, which was a disaster. And so where he was like. allowed to crash and it was a disaster.

So I think maybe had this in him, but I don't know he would have been able to achieve it before now. And it's interesting to think of it that way because the ghost of his father is literally looming over him as he does the whole like John Hammond, Jurassic Park, talk to the screen move that I loved. But it's interesting that Logan's looming. And yet there's something about Logan being gone that is freeing Kendall to do this. It feels like to me.

And I love, I mean, I loved tracking that drip of poison, like, from Mattson to shift to Rome and to Ken. Like, and to both of your points, I think that Mattson's best strategy. Mattson's best strategy seems to be driving a wedge through all of them, picking them apart, because together maybe they could do this, but apart they cannot. And it makes, now it makes sense to me why Mattson called Ken earlier this season rather than Roman, right? He's just like pulling at each of them where he may. And, you know, with Shiv, there's like, there's a more overt seduction angle to it, but it's still business and nasty trickster business from him, you know? I guess there was that other time he went, he was going to go on the

talk show that made fun of him. And then, um, Shiv wrote the letter. And then he backed off on that one. We've never, we've never really seen him shine. We've never seen some Ken Shire. shine in a big stage. I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't think that was going to go well either. Like, his jokes were terrible. I don't know. No. Oh, I guess at the beginning of season two, when he talked after his dad had basically

cut his balls off and he went on and talked and his dad was like, that's the first good thing he's ever done. Right. He did like a CNBC interview. He did the CNBC hit. So that was pretty good. I mean, I guess his press conference at the end of season two when he destroys his dad temporarily. Right.

Yeah, that was pretty good. Yeah, you're right. That was quick, but yeah, it was good. But he hasn't been able to do the thing that he's been wanting to do since the very first time we saw him in the boardroom attempting to acquire Walter, which is like, be a titan of industry. You know, be someone who has a great idea, who knows how to sell his ideas, who knows how to explicate why he's the best person for the job.

He's not blaming someone else for something. He's not, you know, reading his dad's script. He's doing his thing. I mean, he stayed up overnight. had these flight jackets designed and made up this whole strategy and pulled it off. And I mean, the thing that I really liked about it is just I kind of bought it at the end of the, at the end of the pitch, even though he basically invented like retirement homes where directors bring rough cuts of films to Colorado.

Like, I don't know. Early screenings. Insanely bad and fake idea that I was like, is this an idea? Maybe it might be. Maybe it's something I would do. You're in. You're investing in Living Plus. But what I love about the fact of what he's selling is Living Plus,

like live forever but more or whatever, is this like ongoing idea that the show has been preoccupied with of like, which is said blatantly in the Tom and Shiv conversation, which is love or money, right? Living or working. And first of all, the idea, I mean, this is a retirement community,

but it's also kind of like it reminds me of the, Jeff Bezos planned to build Amazon communities around the, you know, that blurring of, like, work and life and all that sort of stuff. And the fact that, like, Ken is trying to sell life, living plus, whatever it is. But, like, where is he at the end? Like, he's all alone, you know? Like, Rob and his kids aren't around him. Like, what is his life? Does he have one?

It doesn't feel like it. And so it's, like, it feels like the show is really drilling down on love or money, life or work. we know what the bad choice is and are any of these people or especially any of these kids capable of making the good choice, right? Well, we haven't seen Iverson this whole season. We have only seen Mondale the dog once.

Even though Tom and Shiv are kind of baddest. I don't know what this means for Mondale. Maybe he'll get a couple walks. The other interesting thing about Kendall's big heroic comeback at the end there, which I would have given 10 to 1. one odds, it was going to be a disaster. They dropped these breadcrumbs with, you know, him, him realizing that they weren't going to make the clouds and him just reacting like a seven-year-old.

It was like, oh, no, this is bad. And then when Roman pulls away and is basically like, good luck, break a leg, I'm not going out there with you. And they cut to Kendall just kind of sitting there and it just seems like he's going to have a seizure. And then it all works out. What was really interesting was how the kids, the other two kids took it, where, you know, start a season for, Kendall walks in and does the, Romay, Romay, let's start a business. And those three are all aligned. By the end of episode six, both of them are rooting against him. Like, they want him, Shiv wants him to go down in flames.

So the Matzadil can happen. And then Roma wants him to go down in flames because now there's no more co-CEO. There's no more C-Bros. It is now a dog fight between the three of them again. So it took six episodes for this to fall apart, Sean. Yeah, I'm not sure if the Roman Kendall Alliance is like fully cooked. I think that they're, they still need each other in some ways.

I think him distancing himself obviously like at first really wounded Kendall. And we saw that. You just saw that look on his face in the dressing room. But I think that hard turn where everyone in the in the skybox after Kendall returned, where everyone had to accept that he really did a good job and he handled the situation well and even handled the Matson tweet situation really well, which is, you know, that's like an all-time mind field. I thought that was a very smart evocation of what can happen

in these kind of environments where someone tries to... I didn't favor it. Yeah, and someone tries to blow up your spot and you like, you use humor, you use thoughtfulness. You know, you try to put yourself in someone else's position, but also you distance yourself from something. It was very clever. And everyone in the skybox was sort of, even Carl,

who had just an hour earlier said, I have your dick in my hand and, you know, you have mine and yours. Like, he was celebrating Kendall, even in that moment. And so I think, you know, how much of that was Schiff and Roman just having sibling rivalry with their brother and just making fun of him the way that they all make fun of each other? And how much of it was there is actually another fissure here in the union. For Shiv, it feels more serious than it does Roman at this point. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know how long. I agree.

I don't think the Ken and Roman Alliance is completely cooked, but I don't know how much further it can survive. But the Shiv thing, I mean, what I love is how deep these resentments run, and that's just true of family. Like, when it's a small thing, like, Ken accidentally takes her seat at a conference table where she's already planning to sit there, right? But then also what I love is when she brings up, when it's just the three of them, and she brings up like, you know, she's spilled chocolate milk in the car, dad, like this

very childish, but like she delivered it with such resentment in her eyes, like such anger over this small thing that happened when they were kids, but that she, you know, is emblematic of something bigger, but also that she's been holding on to. And isn't that just the way with family where we remember these like, small injustices and they get bigger and bigger and bigger in our heads with our, with our siblings, with our parents, et cetera. And so for Shiv, I mean, it reminds me of Greg's bachelor party when, like, the Roman Ken, like, being kept in a cage thing came burbling to the surface and something that they

had never dealt with. And this is just something that they've never dealt with with Shiv that Shiv has obviously been holding on to. So, like, are they trying to cut her out? Yes. Are they lying to her faces constantly? Yes, but there is also some history there that is making it even pricklier for her than it might otherwise be, you know? I liked when she angrily grabbed her phone after he took the seat.

Yeah. Yeah, they do a good job of bringing the decades-long baggage with all of them. The only reason I, the thing with Roman and the reason I actually think it's, I probably think it's a more serious headed toward a breakup situation with those two than you guys do. But Roman just takes a lot of L's this episode, right? He handles the Hollywood thing terribly. He handles the conversation with Jerry think terribly. And really his only move, which we've seen a couple other times when he gets power, it kind of, he snaps, right?

He just becomes this really mean, impulsive. He can't handle it. And then finally he makes the big chess move of I'm going to let Kendall go down in flames and he doesn't. And I took that end scene with him in the car as him going, I fucking fuck this up again. and my dad deep down knew I was a loser and maybe I'm a loser. I don't know.

Maybe am I overreeding that, Sean? No, I don't think so. I mean, it's hard to say what it means for him and Ken, but I think he's obviously at a pretty big low in this episode. He didn't really make a single good move the whole time. And that's notable because usually he lashes out. And we're still anticipating his reunion with Jared Mencken, which I think is, I assume is coming soon.

and you know he's his version of intelligence is always ruined by his inability to control his feelings we just saw it in the last episode on top of a mountain with Mattson and now we see it in a meeting with an executive where in theory he was just supposed to

navigate Calispetron 2's struggles and ultimately could lead to I mean that felt like one of the realest things I've ever seen I mean you know like Lorraine Skafari directed this episode. She's certainly been privy to

a lot of Hollywood machinations. Annabeth Gish has been in Hollywood for decades. I'm sure she's been privy to a lot of these experiences. What a rollercoaster career for her. She really seemed to have quite a handle on the cadence of the Hollywood executive conversation. I thought that was really great.

And, you know, he blew up there, and obviously he blew up with Jerry. And he and Jerry have had this simmering, like rage right underneath the surface all season. So to see that come to the four, but he does still need Ken to kind of mop up his mess. You know, he does say he needs him to kind of unwind some of the things that he's done. We'll see.

I mean, maybe he spirals down even further. I'm not sure what to expect from Roman. I mean, I think I agree with you, Bill, that like they're headed for a nasty breakup. I just don't know that they're quite there yet, Ken and Roman. Like, I think that because in this episode, despite Roman, like, leaving him hanging out to dry on the presentation, Ken backs every single move that Roman makes, right? He's just sort of like, okay, yeah, that's okay, you know? These two young Turks might just have what it takes, you know, et cetera, et cetera, even firing Jerry, right?

He's like, okay, it's a move. But yeah, to your point, I mean, do you want, should we talk about Anabeth Gish? Yeah, let's talk about those two Roman scenes. I thought you were going to give us the grumble quote, grumble quote caveat. Some are saying these two young Turks might have what it takes to turn this thing around. Yeah. I love that. I thought this was a great Kendall episode.

All right, so these two Roman scenes. he has lunch with joy. Andabel Gish, she's on Succession. She's in a lifetime movie. She's just her IMDB, if you look at it, is just all over the map. She's one of those people who could be on any channel on your cable system or a streamer and you wouldn't be surprised. She gives Roman some condolences.

And he goes, refused. I have all the condolences I need. Tommy full. Bad start. She complains about the mangan coverage. He immediately gets pissed off, spouts out some Hollywood, cliches and then does the I could just fire you. And then you can see him all of a sudden saying,

fuck it, I'm firing her. Do you think, Sean, does he go into that thinking I'm going to fire her? Or does she make him mad with the Mankan thing? No, I highly doubt it. But I think, you know, they have values in their creative community, you know, incredibly evolved, ruthlessly segregated city that we've built on a geological fault here. Perfect. Yeah, I think she got under his skin right away.

And I think obviously she erred pretty significantly by saying you are where you are for a reason. I think as soon as she said that, it was curtains. And you know, everything again was very under the surface. She was, you know, smiling with with daggers, you know, in her teeth and he was ready to flip because he's on edge all the time. Also, you know, maybe just a little jet lag

you know, that typical, like just showed up in L.A. Well, I didn't get enough sleep the night before. I don't think he planned to fire at all. Honestly, I think it was much more a kind of like put the fire out sort of meeting that spiral out of control. Right. They were talking about like sugar, sugar, love bomb her, like, blah, blah. It's that impulsivity. That's the word for Roman is impulsivity. And like, it's, what I like

about him is his biggest weakness is tied to his biggest strength, that emotional intelligence that he has, that emotionality that he has. And then the flip side of that is this, you know, him just making huge, huge errors. This felt, Annabeth Gish, by the way, I just want to shout out, she's been doing such great work over in the Mike Flanagan shows on Netflix recently. So that's That's another one. That's some really good work for her. And then, of course, forever and always mystic pizza. Beautiful girls?

Beautiful girls, sure. Yeah, she was Tim Hutton's girlfriend and beautiful girls. She's been in a lot of stuff, like 35 years of stuff at this point. And that's what, I mean, like, we know that Oscar winner Adrian Brody showed up for like 1.1 episodes last season. So certainly they can get big names to just, like, show up in one episode. And I don't know if you would call Annabeth Gish a big name. But for us, we're like, ah, it's Annabeth Gish. and it feels like this Joy Palmer thing is not going away entirely after one episode.

This feels like something that's going to linger. I'm glad you brought this up because I was thinking why didn't they do like the Julia Roberts once seen cameo or like somebody, Gwyneth Paltrow, somebody like a real A-Lister would be like, oh, but obviously she, Joy is going to come back because she's going to sue it looks like. That feels distracting almost to have like a Julia Roberts or Gwineth Paltrow, then it becomes about that. Whereas like. Is Julia Roberts? What if Julia Roberts played Callisputtron? You know, what if she was in the robots too? Smozing in the cave.

Yeah, yeah, I love that. No, but like, so this feels like Amy Pascal at Sony, right? Like, this feels like an Amy Pascal thing or even very recently, Victoria Lons at Marvel Studios. So that obviously happened after this was written shot. They could have done Sean's girl, Samantha Mathis. She could have, they could pull their in. I wonder who is on the list of they can't be too famous,

but they have to be somewhat famous for the role of joy. Who else? Who's in our Samantha Mathis, Annabelle Gish world, Sean? I mean, another Mystic Pizza along Lily Taylor. That would have been intriguing. I love that. Lily Taylor is such a good one. Martha Plinton?

Yeah, they could have gone a lot of ways. But I do agree with Joanna, though. There's like a lot of real life comps here for who that character is and a lot of women in the last 10 years who have been confronted by the corporate power of Hollywood. I think especially when that like when it's like a big failing IP, which is a lot of what was like thrown at Amy Pascal's feet specifically at Sony. and then when he says she walks and gets a sweet producer deal, like that's exactly what happened with Amy Pascal, right? She gets kicked out of Sony and then she's like still the Spider-Man producer, though. That happens to everybody, it seems like.

They pretend there's going to be some sort of connection and then there's just not. They actually leave. Maybe they'll be involved in one show that they were already involved with that they greenlit or something. Depends on how smart the executive is and what IP they hold on to. I mean, Amy Pascal won because she held on to the producing rights for Spider-Man. And then that lets her produce a little women movie and do all the stuff she's done. Carolyn's dress at Game of Thrones, right?

At HBO, yeah, yeah. There's a lot, I mean, there are only some examples, but like Toby Emmerich just left Warner Brothers. I don't, I don't know if he's, he left a year and a half ago. I don't know if he's attached to anything right now. You know, but he had a very similar kind of exit deal.

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you can book everything you need for your next adventure. Don't just dream about that next trip. Book it with Priceline. Download the Priceline app or visit Priceline.com and book your next trip today. Guys, I'm starting to think Roman might not be that competent. The other scene was when Jerry, the maddest I think we've ever seen her. I am good at my job.

She does that quivering jaw thing. She's so mad like her jaw like kind of loses control. She says you cannot fire a studio executive. You are a weak monarch. You're not your dad. You cannot win against the money. Tech is going to wash you over. Your dad knew.

I am good. Like she's fucking going at Roman. And Roman, the only thing he comes back with is I needed to believe that I'm as good as my dad. and she says say it or believe it. I don't know if these are coming. I don't know if these two wacky kids are coming back from this, Joanna. I think this is a wrap. Yeah, I mean, I don't see them reconciling.

And it's almost that thing. It's like with the Tom and Greg thing. I feel like Succession was a little like people are getting distracted with their, because Succession is such a sexless show, even though Tom and Shiv have sex twice in this episode. But like, it's such a sexless show that people are sort of like desperate for this, that kind of juice, I think. And so there's like the Tom and stuff. and Gray thing and the Jerry and Roman thing that obviously like the show isn't playing into, but this season they're very firmly not playing into either of those things. And I wonder if they're

like, let's drill down and focus on this other thing right now, kids at home. Like let's, like, let's focus on the story we want to tell here in the end run of the show. We probably aren't going to get a lot of sex until Roman and Jared Mankin finally consummate their long simmering sexual attention, which cannot be ruled out. Roman needs to get some sort of release, you know, it just feels like it's really bottled. up right now. And he needs to just let it all go. Where's his old escort?

That was one of my favorite random characters. I don't, well, I think she's she was in the trailer to the season, so she's showing up at least at one point. But I don't think she was ever an escort. Was she? Wasn't she just his girlfriend? She didn't have sex with. Yeah. I thought she was just his girlfriend. She was at that sex club. She hooked up with

I met everyone was at that sex club, though. Yeah, true. Whatever she was. Are we talking about Kaylin Fitzgerald was, she was in the Preview? Yeah. Oh, phenomenal. Just like one shot, you know.

She had a history with Willow, which I think, remember, they kind of, they knew each other. It seemed like they crossed past. She was friends with Naomi Pierce. Like, you know, she's in some sort of circles. Yeah, I'm worried about Roman. But that also led to Roman saying that he fired Jerry and Kendall going, you fired Jerry? Shiv's godmother, Jerry? Like, just a disbelief.

Hey, let's talk about Shiv. Big shift comeback last two episodes. Really, really finding her foot in the plane scene with Mattson. They put a little private jet footsie. I was thinking one of her greatest talents is being able to navigate this world of fucking agro men and just kind of knowing how to how to play in that sandbox where somebody like Kendall, he's shouting the clichés and he just kind of can't handle it. He's not quick enough.

where she's just doing a dance with Madsen. I thought that scene was really good. I don't know. What do you think they have planned for these two, Joanna? Where does this go with those two? Well, I mean, like, he's obviously using her to, you know, throw a bomb in the middle of, you know, against her brothers. The question is, like, how much is she a happy, willing player in all of that?

And how much is she a pawn? And I always want Shiv to be a player, not a pawn. So I hope that, you know, she knows when to say no. And it's, you know, we'll see. It feels like a dangerous game to play. But something I think is really interesting. And we'll talk about Tom and Shiv in a second, I suppose. But like, I mean, first of all, she gets him and take the tweet down, right?

Yeah. And then also that last sort of like video call she has with him, Tom's in the room. Like she brings Tom into the middle of this whole relationship, which I think is interesting. Good comeback for Tom. Tom's having sex with Shiv again. He's back in the inner circle. It was really looking bleak for him after the third episode. Yeah, I, that Eric Begotian character, I can't remember his name.

What, Gil? Gil. Yeah. It was the same kind of thing, right? Gil was using Shiv. Mm-hmm. There was a clear chess move where it's like, look at this. I've hired Logan Roy's daughter.

And there was some FU. And she kind of knew it. But she also liked it and knew how to navigate the guy. And it feels, the Manson thing feels a little bit similar. I she also seems like she likes that it makes Tom jealous and there's this side of Tom that's coming out in their relationship where they play Sean how many times have you played bitey with CR have you guys do that after any pods or no?

Yeah, we do it every Wednesday morning. We meet up in the office before we go out of the studio. We do a little bitey just to just to feel something, you know, just to get the juices flowing. Yeah, I mean, on the one hand, I thought it was a really interesting strategic episode for Shiv on the other, I thought it was like pretty emotionally devastating a couple of different times.

You know, her crying alone in the room, grieving, like, grieving, like making... Scheduled grieving. 20 minutes. 20 minutes were grieving. Was brutal. And, you know, you guys mentioned earlier, just Kendall taking her seat and the very simple,

but powerful metaphor of that idea. And also her just trying to navigate, like, what her place in this world is. Like, she knows how to get in a room with a dickhead like Mattson and basically insult him to his, face in a way that makes it feel to him like she's flirting with him. Like, that's, she's a mega pro with that.

She's probably been doing that since she was 11 years old. But is she actually, like, making anything out of this? I feel like is what she's been confronted with is like, will she be able to put a company together with her brothers? Will she be able to continue the legacy of her father? Will she be able to put her marriage back together? I mean, she has huge questions that are facing, that are looking her right in the face. I thought amazing Sarah Snook episode, again, not just because she has to do the thing

that we like about that character. You know, she knows how to fire back. She knows how to stay strong. But, you know, very similar. A couple of moments, the conversation between her and Tom in the hotel room where he lays it out where he's like, I'm a middle class Midwestern guy who wants money. I've never had money. And now I want to get money and keep money.

And the look on her face and how she responds to him and how she kind of like draws him in but pushes him away, they're like, they're doing things with their face in that episode that is remarkable where I'm just trying to. figure out how they feel every millisecond of that conversation. Absolutely. And I think it's because of that, like, they want both of these things inside of them. And it feels like it's an either-or choice for them. And, like, it goes back to that quote I love from last season from Caroline talking about Logan, where she says, he never saw anything he loved that he didn't want to kick just to see it it if it would still come back. Right. And Shiv is, like, literally kicking Tom last week's episode.

And, you know, and here he is just, like, coming back, like, Shiv is always pushing Tom away or jabbing at Tom, but you can see in so many little moments, like when he hugs her, when he's genuinely concerned that she wants to pull him in, too. And again, like Jesse Armstrong has said, I don't think, you know,

there's a reason that Kieran Culkin and Sarah Snook and Jeremy Strong are all in the lead actor category much as being made of this at the Emmy race this year. Yeah. Because this is like, they are all lead characters in this show. But I do think it's interesting that Jesse Armstrong has said a couple times, like Shiv and Tom, that's kind of the crux of the show.

And I think this conversation, love or money, is the crux of the show. Like, come live with me in a trailer park while I'd follow you anywhere for love, Tom Wamskin? And like, the way they're looking at each other earnestly and then laughing very cynically and then looking earnestly again to Sean's point and just sort of like it's flashing back and forth on their faces. And, like, we identified that first, that scene with them at the beginning of this season and that first episode on the bed. Like, you know, these in the bedroom conversations between Tom and Shiv, I think is the microcosm of the larger question of the show. Can you choose love? If you are as damaged as these Roy kids are, can you connect with someone actually?

Or do you always have to be shoving them away? as Roman does to Jerry in this episode, as Kendall has done historically, as Shiv has often done with Tom, or can you hold on to something? And I think that's going to, I mean, I don't know we've been talking about like a happy ending for Shiv this season or not or for any of them. And like I was thinking more and more about that since last we spoke about it and this idea of like in a Shakespearean tragedy at least, even if you make the good choices, like Sarah Snook has compared herself to the character of Cordelia and King Lear, which is like the quote unquote good daughter who is always loyal in loves, she dies anyway. If you're caught up in a Shakespearean tragedy, it's almost as inevitable. It doesn't even matter if you're making the right choices. It's going to end poorly. And that feels like what we're barreling, possibly barreling towards for all of them, though I still have hope. Well, you left out one key note. They're half their mother, who's the worst person in the world. I mean, both their parents are the worst people in the The mother is just the meanest person.

So like when Tom, they have that moment after Bighty and she says, wow, you made me feel something Tom Momgan. That's like such a mean thing to say to somebody. And he's like, you can see his face like over and over again. She just kicks him as hard as she can in the balls

when he's not ready for it. And that's kind of their relationship. But at least it feels like there's some honesty back and forth now. This was the first episode of, I was like, ah, they might actually end up together. She also, there's one point he hugs her. And, and, uh, and she looks like she's about to start crying for like a second and a half. And I, so the pregnancy thing, which she still hasn't told to anybody, right?

And now we're probably, I don't know, a week ahead of, um, when we found out maybe what, 10 days ahead since the first episode. Yeah, yeah. Something like that. So, um, that's kind of, that's, that's, it's, so. Somebody's going to find out about that at some point. I feel like that's going to be one of the big, unanswered story drivers with four episodes to go.

Who gets that information and how is it used either for or against Shiv? If Madsen gets it, he's using it against her. I feel like it's less about leverage. I mean, maybe. But I feel like it's less about leverage and more about a choice for her. Not like, I'm not talking about like pro-choice poor life or anything like that. But I just mean like what does she want and what is she going to lean into? And again, Sean made fun to me, and I totally agree that, like,

Shiv deciding to be a mother is a dumb, happy ending for, like, a progressive 2023 show. But like- That's not what I was making fun of. Just the idea that Shiv will be happy. I don't think that anyone's going to be happy. Yeah, I think you're probably right. But I feel like there's a, does she want, does she choose family and Tom?

Or does she choose power and money? Sean's rooting for that for the spin-off episode of, Shiv is a single mom and her mom moves in in the guest room. And it's just Shiv and her mom trying to raise a young child. Genuinely would watch. A lot of barbs getting flown around. That sounds very similar to my upbringing, honestly. I think that Bighty, while Bighty was very funny,

it's just the, it's again another nice perfect pocket metaphor for their relationship and how she's going through the world, which is just this like, you know, like pain, intimacy, tantric competition. Everything is a fight, but everything is about feeling close, but also pushing away and making someone else hurt, but also staying close to them.

That is the Roy way. Yeah, and like admitting hurt, admitting that you're hurt about something. And I think that like comparing Shiv, in her own way, being able to accept comfort and condolences from Tom, both in her like planned grieving session and then like again later.

versus Roman, where however disingenuous, Annabeth Gish's character might have been, like there's a condol. And he's like, no, no, full up, don't need it, right? I've pre-graved. I'm fine, you know, and when obviously he's not. Whereas Shiv is, like, letting Tom in in her own way, which, again, is, like, is pretty surprisingly tender for such a sharp show, but it comes with those teeth marks. And I think also, again, they've said so many times that the only reason that the only reason

kind of the only reason Tom and she got together in the first place is she was quote unquote a mess when you met her and they allude to this year this like TK character. TK's not the guy, the Washington guy. That's somebody else, right? No, we haven't heard that name before as far as I can tell though it's really hard to Google TK because journalists know why. But like, you know, something about Washington, TK, the guy before him and Tom tries to raise one of his exes perfectly named Mary, like the most Midwestern ex name I can probably think of.

He had his times, Joanna, okay? He had his times. He never had a taste of the dark meat until he met shit. You know what I mean? Anabel Gish, by the way, you can catch her in a father's nightmare. Okay. From 2018 on Lifetime, a vindictive and psychotic new roommate attempts to convince an innocent college freshman. That was one of those, one of those ripped from the headline movies.

And then you could also see her in Gone Mom. which I watched recently, which is the only reason I was excited. Jennifer Doulos, the wealthy Connecticut Mother of Five who mysteriously vanished. So she's doing those at the same time doing all the Netflix,

the Mike Flanagan stuff, which is really good and really high-end. And then she's in succession. I can't keep track, Annabel Gish. She's booked and busy. She was just on Barry last season, actually, speaking of HBO, and she's married to the stunt coordinator on Barry,

Wade Allen, who's like one of the great stunt coordinator Wow. In Hollywood, yeah. He, like, he won an Emmy for his work on that show. My favorite, I'm surprised by this move, Annabeth Gish career move, is when she showed up the end of Sons of Anarchy. And I was like, sure, okay.

At the end of X-Files, maybe she's just like this show, a closer. You know what I mean? Just bring Annabh Gish. I like that. That's interesting, same by Ann Rivera. Yeah. Can we ask, can we just have the quick conversation, Living Plus, as an idea?

Yeah. Where this is coming from? there's a little we work in there. Like, what else are they drawing from? And then the concept of, would the tech community actually be excited about living plus and feel like this was a thing? It's one of those great ideas when somebody's on stage talking about it. But I thought about it after.

I'm like, wait a second, this is insane. That I have to buy all these giant parcels of land, build houses, have, like, how would they do this? But as he's presenting it, it seems great. Well, it doesn't matter, right? because like so, and I say this is someone who lives right here in the Bay Area, like Silicon Valley is just snake oil up and down the board, right? And as long as you can convince people that your snake oil is the best snake oil, like they will invest.

And, you know, the way the stock market is just the CEO feelings, you know what I mean? It's just like it's all like there's that, what does he say? So something like super on the nose about like it's almost enough to make you stop believing in capitalism when you could just make this stuff up. Something Kendall says in this episode. episode. So yeah, I guess I don't think the logistics of Living Plus matter at all. What do you think, Sean?

Sorry, Sean. I don't know if it's going to work. Sean was excited to have a director stop by and screen in an early film as he ate tapioca with no teeth. Well, I mean, there's like the ridiculousness of it, which is the suggestion that perhaps they will develop technologies and accumulate

health data to allow you to live forever, which is even as a joke on stage is hilarious. But I think you're right. I think there's definitely a little bit of we work. I think there's a little bit of Glenn Gary,

Glenn Ross, Rio Rancho, phony real estate, sell you a bill of goods going on here. I think there's a little bit of Kendall's about integration. You know, like that's a word that you hear from him and synchronicity and taking all of these pieces

and putting them together. He's obsessed with that. He's been saying that since the first season. And Mattson is literally in the last episode explained it in the opposite fashion. He was like, this is a parts shop. This is a place that has disparate pieces that should be disassembled and sold off or reimagined.

But Kendall, you know, again, I'm sorry to be like English major with this episode. But what he wants to do is take everything and hold it together. He wants to hold the family business together. He wants to work with his siblings. He wants everyone to stay together. And he wants to live out his dream of taking over for his father. And like Living Plus, which is I guess either his dad's idea or someone else's idea. and that's why we see at the beginning of the episode,

him doing the early pitch for it, this is a way for him to continue legacy. And so the idea itself is horrible, and yet I am mildly intrigued by the idea of seeing Colisperchon, too, while living in my houseboat in Denver. It would be Clispritron 9. That's good point.

But the thing is, he's continuing his father's legacy, but then has to digitally alter one of the things his dad says to make it seem like this had a chance to be a legacy. I let Greg's take, too, where he said, I think it's hard to make houses look like tech. We've always had houses.

No, because we've had houses for a while now. Yeah, that's my favorite Greg line of the season, honestly. But I think that it's interesting that that's your read, Sean. I think I mostly agree. I just wonder, like, his whole idea of let's keep everyone thing together but cut Shiv out at the same time. Like I kind of believe him that he's saying it's just to get the deal done and then we'll do things together. But there is also a sort of like it has to be me, which has always been Kendall's thing. And I think that we can talk about the various ways in which these kids are still chasing something that is gone from their ghost dad.

You know what I mean? Like Shiv lapping up the idea that she is like her dad or Roman wanting the love of. of his dad and his dad is gone. Even watching a mean video of his dad edited talking about a small dick. Or Ken wanting that to be an underlying not a crossout. And he's like, if I do this, then it was my name underlined. And if I fail at this, it was my name crossed out. And those are the stakes for him.

And like he will break apart that thing he's, maybe Sean had said he, that he'll break apart that thing he's trying to preserve. because of that thing that his dad did, which is draw a line on a piece of paper, you know? Yeah, I think you're right about like Shiv being sidelined because that is how things were before. You know, when the plan at the outset of this show, when it seemed like Kendall was in position to take over, Shiv was not in the business. Right. So I'm sure that in his fantasy, that is the logical next step.

You know, that Roman continues to participate, but that he is the chosen one. And Shiv is still his sister and he still loves her, but that she's not really in power. And this felt like probably the closest he'll ever get to that. I would be surprised if Kendall has a higher high than the one that he had in this episode. Episode six, yeah. And I think it's so interesting that it's like live forever because that's a, we've heard Connor talk about cryogenics. Like this is a Connor Roy idea that Kendall is trying to sell here. And that should tell you everything you need to know about Living Plus.

You guys just remind me there was no Connor in this episode. Barely to any Connor the last episode. I wonder if we have a big Connor episode. coming in episode seven. What if he wins the election? What if he's the next president of the United States? Maybe that's it. They had to film a lot of Connor scenes all in a row.

That's a long way for 1% in like a couple days to winning the election. This is Sean's favorite part where we prognosticate what's coming. But like in terms of like the blank episode, I still do think we're probably going to get the burial episode or the funeral episode. And then also in this episode, Tom drops a clue about an upcoming episode because he's like, your dad's election party should I host is something that he says, to Shiv. And so I feel like Tom Losing, Logan's election party. It's one of them, I think.

So, yeah. Sean, what out of these three things, Kendall said, which one really sold you on Living Plus? Was it integrated character IP life enhancement? Was it we think security plus entertainment is a pretty unbeatable offer?

Or was it physical social media in the real world? Which one of those three concepts really resonated with you. Physical social media in the real world, obviously, is just friendship, which is fantastic. With security and entertainment.

But I did think that that was weirdly, again, a brilliant pivot out of the Mattson conversation. Yeah. You know, his Holocaust reference, the idea that, like, that is something that you see in these investor presentations is, like, constantly pivoting back to staying on message.

No matter what is, you know, uttered. Even the most heinous comment imaginable, there's still a pathway back to what matters most, which is selling the new thing. So I thought it was great. And yeah, I've invested north of $50 million in Living Plus, and I'm really

excited. Living Plus Plus. Moving my entire family to Wisconsin. It's exciting. We didn't talk about the Nazi comment and just what that potentially could mean for Mattson. Pretty aggressive. I feel like that would have become a thing. But can't you see out, like Elon must

doing it on a Tuesday. We've seen versions of this from figures like that in this world, for sure. This feels like the muskiest thing he's done, you know. All of us admitted to Googling that phrase last night and then wondering if we're going to end up on some sort of Google watch list. But I didn't know what it meant. I think we will join every close watcher of the show who will be doing that same thing. We were talking about like the, whether or not you know the original phrase,

the Doderic part is the part that I think a lot of people were like, what does this mean? And just in case you're just hopping on and listening to this immediately after and you have not done your own risky Googling, Doderick is the name of one of the waystar characters. We think it's the one that Greg dressed up as in the very first episode where he like vomited out the eyeballs of character. But like you can see that dog. It's like their Mickey Mouse, right? You can see that character in Mattson's tweet. He like got some graphic designers on it like right away or whatever to make a really foul meme.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, the thing is though, all right. So Mattson does that tweet. Does he do the tweet because he feels like Kendall is actually doing well? And he's starting to get worried that the company, oh, shit, this might actually, I see what the kids are doing now. Or is he just like this living plus thing? He's the opposite of Sean.

This living plus thing's full of shit. There's no way it can work. I have to sabotage this. I don't know what his intentions are yet. I think it could go either way. I think it was a little bit of both. I think like his just his reputation. as a chaos agent was just how can I kind of draw attention away from whatever's happening over here and draw it on myself.

And I'm already, you know, I'm a rebel in this space and I do things that are dramatic. And so look over here. Don't look over there. I think was the NBA Twitter basically. I mean, here's a crazy tweet. Come, come watch the ruckus I've created. I mean, yeah, just social media, right? Social media is just look at me and look at how strongly I feel about this thing so that you don't think about this other thing. Should we lay out just in case it's not clear to folks, like what the boys are up to in this episode, right? Which is pushing the valuation of the company high enough that Mattson's bid of what 192 is no longer, you know, the right bid. The company's worth more and something that I think it's Ken says is like he can't go, he doesn't have much juice beyond 192, right? So they want to blow up the deal because they think they can run the company themselves.

and they want to crush this living plus, sell the tech world on houses and drive up the valuation of Waystar so that Matzic can't afford it anymore essentially, right? That's the plan. Yeah, and then to kind of Jedi Mindtrick, the senior leadership team, to, oh, it's 50-50 money stock, but this guy, Mattson, he's a wild card, he might drive down our stock. The deal could be worth less than you realize almost like when Elon bought Twitter and then immediately the value of Twitter, you know, dropped 80%. So I don't think it's going to work, but it's a rare actual plan for them that did have some thought behind it.

Can we talk about Ken's victory lap at the end? He walks back in. Sean's guy Fisher Stevens does the king is dead. Long live the king. And the kings. The kings and queens. And queen. Oh, man.

The great work boss man we get. We got Carl, who just turned on Kendall 20 minutes ago doing that he's special. I know special. He's special. And then Kendall goes, we have special. And everyone's just kissing Kendall's ass, which is really all he's wanted. Just the respect in the room from all of these people. This is, this is it.

This is Nirvana for him. He's got to celebrate it by going to take a nice little swim in the Pacific Ocean. Just floating around. He's like, I finally did it. That sure looked like Malibu, Bill. I got to say. It's sure. I was going to say it looked like Mallory after the Lamar contract extension was finalized. I think Mall just went in the Pacific Ocean and floated upside down.

Picture Mal alone on a beach, drawing the number one in the sand and then floating off to celebrate $260 million for Lamar. It was too good to be true. Because I'm on a group text thread, I do understand all of these references because of yesterday. I think that I also want to shout out Greg sliding comfortably into his like toady position in this episode.

The like, you know, pitchbot bullshit, right? Like, you know, say it like a robot. And then him, I mean, a win is a win. He gets the dub right. I mean, I rewound it like three times just to watch that dub play back over.

So, you know, Greg gets some lackey points in this episode. Greg running Waystar is still in play. Still cannot be crossed off. I also love when he's talking to Tom and he's like, well, maybe this is good for you because your presentation is like

bad. So it's good that everyone's paying attention to this. Like everything that he says to Tom about his presentation really cracked me up. We did skip over the very brief moment where we saw Tom's presentation in which he said, and you are an ATN citizen. And I have an 18th.

I like that they only show that nothing else. All right, it's time. It's prediction time. The segment you both hate. We've four episodes left. Who's going to win? Who's the favor right now? Well, Living Plus is obviously winning big. I just feel like the future is so strong. The CEO of Living Plus will win, but who else? Calypitron 2, I think, is also winning. I'm excited about that.

Joy is not winning. Joy took a big fat L in this episode. By the way, that was a good lesson. Don't fire a studio executive without having somebody else there. I actually never had thought about that. Keep that in mind. That's why it's me and Joanna on this pod bill. Just think we're like,

we've consulted HR. No, maybe Joy wins an Oscar for Into the Clospatronverse. You know what I mean? You never know. It could be in her future. It's possible. But I think that what if it's Jerry, who's very good at her job.

You know what I mean? Every moment with her is confident. What's the move for Jerry after this? It's so interesting. Like, to watch the three of them in the gallery, sort of watching Ken's delivery is interesting. She gets fired, but she's still here. Like, she didn't go anywhere.

So, like, is she fired? Does that stick? Is she fired? And then she's another force for Mattson? Well, it's just Jerry has, in her back pocket, the Roman Dickpick incident. That was all I can think about when he was firing her. I was like, you do not do this.

Roman, you will regret it. Kendall still murdered a freaking party waiter at Shiv's wedding. And people still have that information. Marsha has it. Marsha's son has it. And our guy Colin the Grim Reaper. And Shiv and Roman both have it too. So five people know about that.

Not nothing. No, it's not nothing at all. Jerry, I don't know. Yeah, most competent person we know. Oh, shout out to the Carolina heads for the moment when, like, Hugo's like, that was very good. Was that you? And she's like, yeah.

I'm not sure at all. I don't think it was. She just grabbed the credit. Hugo's getting fired anyway. I would say right now, I agree with the Joanna theory that maybe Jerry's the one left standing. But that doesn't tie in with the Jesse Armstrong. I want to just wreak wretched havoc over this terrible world that I've been satirizing and pulling apart for four years.

Putting Jerry in charge of this company actually would be the logical choice that makes sense. So maybe that doesn't make sense. So if we're all on board with Andy Greenwald's, this is just going to be like destruction of capitalism ending at the show. The company is destroyed. Logan Roy's legacy is gone. by the end of the series. I don't think that's how it will end personally. And Megan's in the White House.

I don't know how it will end, but I think that under the surface and what this episode really reveals is that Jesse Armstrong may very well be a pure socialist, but I think he knows that the forces of power in the world are not going anywhere anytime soon, and that the structure is really corrupt,

but that it prevails often. And I think that there will be a signal towards that. There will be, they will clearly say, you know, Waystar Royco is actually bigger than all these people and all these kids. I'm pivoting like Kenel Roy on stage in real time, just waffling back and forth and I'll meet you here. Money wins, love loses. Is that? Yes, I buy that. Is that the end? Okay.

Yeah. So cousin Greg gets the company with Jerry as his right hand person and all the kids are out and Shiv and Tom go live in a trailer park. And Roman is in disgrace as Jared Mekin As they try to figure out with their relationship And Kendall's dead Can I ask you guys a prediction question? Yeah So we heard mention of Shiv's godmother in this episode

Obviously in the Jerry conversation Who will Shiv choose to be the godfather of her child Kendall, Roman or Connor? Connor, Connor. Great godfather choice. Okay. She and Connor have that thing. You know what I mean?

They have a thing. They're like... They're siblings? She's his favorite. Yeah, they like each other. Yeah, Frank is... Frank is Ken's godfather, right? And Jerry, like, who does Roman have?

Does Roman have a god? Love Logan just naming all of his lieutenants and his business godmother. Well, he has no friends. Who would have been Logan's friend? That's great. But Ewan isn't, he has a brother. Is you and anyone's godfather? That's another one who hasn't shown.

up yet. We haven't seen Ewan and we haven't seen the mom waiting on those two. All right. All right. So the final scene of the succession finale is Ewan rolling up and saying that'll do, Greg. That'll do. That'll do. And that's the end of the show. That's it. We did it. Great job. All right. This podcast was produced by Kai Grady. We will be back next Sunday night. Four episodes to go. I'm feeling sad. I'm already like, I'm already pre-morning scheduling a grief cry. By the way, they stole the scheduled grief thing from broadcast news, Hollywood Hunter. I just want to point that out. Maybe it was an homage. Steal from the best. Or it was an homage. But it was, Holly Hunter used to do that. With love and respect. To Sarah Snook, who is, as you know,

I love her, no one, no one beats Holly Hunter, scheduled cry. Nothing beats that. She's the apex mountain of scheduled cries. Correct. All right. We will see you next week on the prestige TV feed. Don't forget to listen to Sean with Barry and Yellow Jackets, Joanna and Mallory on this feed as well. And you also So you did the HBO, the true crime? Love and Death. First of the episodes, we got David E. Kelly on the pod. Romani and I talked about this new true crime show on HBO.

Yeah. Okay. There you go. See you next week.