The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Succession’ Season 4, Episode 7 Recap

Episode Date: May 8, 2023

Bill, Sean, and Joanna are back to break down the seventh episode of ‘Succession’ Season 4. They discuss the brutally honest confrontation between Shiv and Tom and whether the two can actually recover this time, the reveal of Matsson’s bogus subscriber numbers, and Kendall’s heated meetup with Rava. Along the way, they talk about the shifting power dynamics between the siblings and the chaos of the pre-election party. They close by updating their predictions on who will be running Waystar Royco at the end of the season and debating the effectiveness of the final season. Hosts: Bill Simmons, Sean Fennessey, and Joanna Robinson Producer: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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We're going to break down Succession, Episode 7, which features one of the two great balcony scenes of all time in HBO history, the other being Stringer and Avon, season three, which I was thought, all right, that's our balcony apex. We'll go backwards and talk about Election Eve and the party and all the things that happen.

But we got to start with that scene because Joanna, you think Tom and Shiv are the key to this season and maybe even the entire show. And it seemed like things were going okay. There was some dirty texts back and forth at the beginning of the episode. There was breakfast being brought. There was a gift of a scorpion that maybe was a bad sign. And then as the party goes along, things fall apart. leading to a five-minute interaction that is among the meanest things that has ever been on a television screen.

Walk us through your reactions as their marriage and relationship fell apart. For now. I thought it was so juicy. I loved it. I thought it was incredible, incredible television. I'm going to swing in early with my winner of the episode, which is the soundproofing on the doors of their balcony there, right? Because no one in the party seemed to know that this one. volcanic thing was going on. I thought it was so good. I mean, both those actors have been so good

the entire series, but these daggers that they're throwing at each other and the way, you know, we just had this reconciliation. And the way the episode starts with like breakfast, tender breakfast on a tray. And then like, yeah, the scorpion, which I think has to be a reference to the Asop fable of the scorpion and the frog. And it's in the scorpion's nature to sting against its own self-interest. And so I thought that, you know, it's a perfect gift for Shiv, but not a nice gift for Shiv. And I think of all the things that were said, the one that is possibly impossible to walk back that we'll see, because I think Sean thinks this is just a cycle for them, which I might agree. But when Tom says, I think you are incapable of love, I think you are maybe not a good person to have children, which I think is like one of Shiv's biggest insecurities and top of mine. for her right now, like especially when her own mother told her last season, you know,

I probably never should have had children. You made the right decision. Like some people aren't meant to have children. And so this is on Shiv's mind. She's like, she has, she's pregnant. She's not told anyone. She's not dealing with it because she can't deal with it. And here is, and the writers have confirmed that it is Tom's baby,

here's a father of her children saying, I don't think you should have kids. I don't, that is going to be tough to walk back from. Sean, you actually did watch the Sopranos, unlike Joanna. I did, yes. There were two really mean Carmelo-Toney scenes in the Sopranos, one in their house and then one in the, uh, in their little lakehouse. That, that, it's hard not to think of the lake house scene, right? Well, both of them.

I mean, white caps to me is the, that's the pinnacle of the domestic dispute in, in dramatic television in the last 25. years. And this definitely had that feeling. I mean, there was something a little bit different about white caps because everything that is said in that scene feels like, it feels like conclusive. It feels like we were waiting for the entire show for Tony and Carmel to really say how they felt about each other, which was not good. And Tom and Shiv, like, like Joanna just said, I've always kind of felt like even when they're being sweet to each other, they're giving each other's scorpion gifts, you know, like meanness is kind of a, it's a feature of their relationship.

and a kind of nastiness and a bitterness. This, though, obviously, like, it cut much deeper and was much scarier and more sad. And just a great indication of why it sucks to host a party. You know, I love hosting parties, but it is so stressful. And I related so deeply to Tom just being like, I'm so tired throughout the whole party. And that obviously is, that was a, you know,

they let, they walked us to that moment. And one of the reasons why they fought us, so much was certainly because there's a lot of unspoken angst between them, but also because Tom is really stressed and hasn't slept because he's been fucking his wife all the time and has the election coming up. And Shiv feels like she may have been on the wrong horse in this showdown between her brother and Madsen, her brothers and Madsen. So I thought that while on the one hand there was like a lot of deep emotional pain and frustration that was coming out in that moment, there was also just a very practical reason why they blew up at each other. And that's often how

it is with fights, right? When you have a fight. fight with your spouse or your partner. It's always because, like, sure, you're mad about the thing that's happening, but there's a lot going on under the surface, too. Wow, some fighting expertise from Sean Fancy. As you might imagine, I'm not very agreeable. It's almost like you've been together with the same woman since high school. And God bless her.

I don't think that anything that they said to each other, any of the bad things that they accuse each other of are untrue. I think on both sides, they're correct in one way or another. I'm not saying that Shiv shouldn't be a mother. But, you know, it's like her accusing him of striving, right, and him saying, I'm with you because I love you. And we know that's not all that it is, right? Because the reason he's so stressed is not only because he's has no sleep is when fucking his wife, because the rumor going around the party is that he's going to get fired.

It's not like he doesn't care about his position and his power, right? And that's what she's, I think, accurately lobbying at him. And then when he says, you'll be fine, you're a stone cold bitch. You always like, you know, you'll survive. You've got generational wealth, all this sort of stuff. He's right. He's absolutely right about that. So, like, that's the toughest kind of argument is they're both right on each side of this. And I don't, I think the only thing that is a lie is I don't like you.

I don't even care about you, which she says to him. I don't think that's true. But whether or not they'll be able to reconnect after this with only three episodes of the show left, I don't know. You know, I'm like always eager to compare things to Shakespeare and it didn't even occur to me until Bill. said balcony scene that this is like a perverted Romeo and Juliet balcony scene but like why I said it on a balcony if not to invoke that I didn't even think about

that but I think the way in which this episode shows us all of the Roy kids and their relationships because we get a Ken and Rava scene because we get a Jerry and Roman scene and because we get a Willa and Connor scene like to look at all

of the kids and all of their dysfunctions and Connor being the only one who seems to have a functional relationship at all, I think is a really sort of masterful thing that the episode does. The only thing about this fight is that Tom was as mean as Shiv, which we haven't seen before. Usually their relationship was Shiv. He was kind of the punching bag and she was in the power seat and that was always

apparent no matter what sort of interaction they had. Like even on their wedding night, she was just in the driver's seat. And this was the first time he was kind of like, fuck you. It starts out, she says, I think I nailed myself to the mats and cross and he might be bullshit, by the way, that's true. And then Tom calls her out. I didn't fully understand why she was kind of hinting to all these different people at the

party that Tom might be out of ATN. I didn't, did either of you understand the logic or the strategy behind that? I think what she said to explain to him was true, which is that it was, it's a joke that you have to go along with to kind of push this relationship forward with

Mattson. And I think also she has one of those relationships where like, she takes Diggs at her husband publicly. you know, that's like, that's a certain kind of dynamic that they've established between them. It obviously was too far. I mean, that's not, that's not cool. He really cares about his job and his career. Well, it's what Tom does to Greg all the time, right?

Where he's like, Greg, come here and be my whipping boy in this conversation to make me look good. And yeah, I think Shiv is trying to make herself until she finds out about the Indian numbers, herself in dispassment. She's pitching herself to Madsen, right? She's pissing herself for like the head job at Wastard. Yeah. So she's cutting ever and out of his legs out of. even time. So that's the genesis

of the fight. And then he says you will be okay because you're a tough fucking bitch that will do whatever you need. It starts to get heated. I'm sure you're not projecting because that's actually you. I'm a scorpion. You're a hyena. You're a street rat. You're a dead fucking snake. Then it starts getting deep.

She does the... You propose to me during my lowest fucking ebb. He comes back with, you really kept me safe while you ran off to fuck the phone book. Right. Line. She says, bullshit, you were fucking me for my DNA. You were fucking me for a ladder.

He goes up a level with that you were going to see me off to go to fucking prison and gets matter and matter. And then finally says, I think you were incapable of, I think you were maybe not a good person to have children. You have hurt me more than you can possibly imagine. She doesn't know what to say at that point comes back with the, you took away the last six months with my dad. You sucked up to him and you cut me out.

He's like, all right, all up the stakes. It's not my fault that you didn't get a. approval. I have given you endless approval and it doesn't fill you up because you are broken. Yeah. I think you found that little like hand gesture. She's got nothing left at that point other than I don't like you. I don't even care about you. You don't deserve me and you never did. Nothing really to come back for on that one. I don't think this is recoverable. Too many mean things. I just listed eight. I don't think they come back from this. I do. Sean is being optimistic about this, right? I wouldn't use that word.

Forever. There are two scorpions who deserve each other. Isn't that sort of the idea? Come on. Come on, Bill. You've met so many people like this who stay in relationships. Fundamentally, she doesn't need him, though. She doesn't.

It was a part professional thing because he was an up-and-comer and whatever. But if she is now at the point, I thought it was interesting. They leave her. Roman, at the end of the show, Roman's like, all right, so I'm going to do the speech. They all kind of give it to him. walks off, does like the Nixon farewell, which I thought was interesting. Then Kendall does, oh, see you later. And he leaves.

And then it's just shiv by herself. And then it's shiv by herself again. She's got nothing. Like she bet on the wrong horse. She shived her siblings, right? Who don't even know they were shived. She lost Tom. She's got really nothing at this point.

Even Nate who was there who didn't really interact with. Oh my God. Your favorite character, Nate. Oh, fucking Nate. Want to punch him in the face, the whole show. Loser. I think this way she does need Tom because she doesn't have it. If Tom's not there, she doesn't have anyone.

I think that's exactly why. She has nothing else. I find it hard to believe that Tom doesn't realize she's 20 weeks pregnant and maybe even more than 20 weeks since we found out she was 20 weeks pregnant in the first episode, but a couple weeks have passed, which now is about two-thirds through the pregnancy. I don't know. Okay. again, I don't want to get too hung up on this timeline thing because it's going to drive me completely bonkers. But I think it's, I think this show, this season has only been like a week and a half. Like, Logan's dead and they haven't buried him yet.

And usually you do that sort of within the week. Within a week and, yeah, week. But it's still, it's been at least a week and a half, two weeks, which puts her at like 22 weeks. I don't know. I've had two kids. You can tell 22 weeks. You can tell this morning. Literally this morning, I googled 20 weeks baby bump to look at.

And the answer is all women display differently. You know what I mean? So I guess she's just someone who doesn't show that. But I literally, I was looking at this. I was like, would he know? Is he paying attention? Well, that's what made me wonder when he said the thing about you wouldn't make a good mother, whether he knew.

That's interesting. If so, that's the meanest thing anyone has ever said. Yeah. If he knew she were 20 weeks ago. Well, he did give her a scorpion. Sean, if you gave your wife a scorpion just as a funny present, what would be the reaction? Just out of curiosity. You know, it wouldn't be good.

but I wouldn't call myself a very good gift giver. So I think if I gave her something like that, she would be like, oh, you put in a lot of effort here and she would appreciate that. He found the scorpion at Amazon. I found the scorpion. I found the box is nice. Yeah, it was lovely.

I love that box. I think she weirdly would have been impressed, even though the message would not have been well received. Bad idea by Tom. They things were going well. Why give the scorpion? He just had an all-night sex session, and he's blowing it up by trying to make a joke about a scorpion.

This guy's a dumb ass. Jesus, Tom. And I got to say his laugh, like when she does not think it's funny. And he's like, it's a joke. It's funny. That desperate laughter coming out of Tom. So good.

Everyone's so good on the show. Sidebar. So Emmy Reels for this show. If Roman, his Emmy Reel was the Mountain with Mattson, right? I think for Tom and Shiv, this might be the Emmy Reel for both. I agree. Yeah. What is it for Kendall out of the seven episodes we've seen?

Or maybe we haven't had it yet. We haven't had it yet. You know, it's either Living Plus or I think we haven't had it yet. I would guess in episode nine we will get his moment. Well, the second big thing that happened on this episode, and we can go backwards and hit the other stuff. But they're having this, most of the episode is the party, the pre-election party.

And Shiv finds out that they're going to invite all these anti-regulator people to try to sabotage the deal because the kids tell her that at brunch. and she immediately tells Madsen. So now she is clearly unquestionably on the Mattson side and has also brought Tom in. Tom kind of knows what's going on too. And Madsen ends up dropping in. And we can go backwards and cover a whole bunch of this stuff.

But the Mattson piece of this, Joanna, we learned a lot about Madsen in this episode. There's some chicanery with the India numbers. Yes. It would make sense if there were two Indias, but there's only one. The relationship with Eba does not, seem good and she's given information to the boys and in general he just seems like a deranged

maniac what were your takeaways yeah and i really thought it was going to work out for them after he sent her so much of his blood i know can't believe the love story of an age um yeah i thought i mean i thought um scars guard was again incredible in this episode just like coming in the way that you know madson comes in during this moment of silence that ken is having for their dad just like the Swedes are coming in, chattering into the party. His fit, his antique demeanor everywhere, just like stirring up shit everywhere. One of my favorite Scars Guard moments is he's in soft focus in the background of this conversation between Connor and Roman.

And he's just like making gestures that like, I don't think he even knows whether or not the camera's on him. And I was just like, he's just having a blast running through this whole episode. You know, Sean has that jacket. I don't know if you've seen Sean in that. jacket, but he wore it like three weeks ago. That's not true, but I did. Joanna can confirm that I told

Chris Ryan that that looks a lot like a jacket I wore back in my Rat Magazine editing days circa 2007. So there was something close to, I was not joking. It was a different time. I probably had a little bit. I had more Mattson energy back then, honestly.

Pre-O-Bama. I've moved. It's true. I've moved on. I've moved on. And Mattson looks, he looked radiant. He's just a magnet. innocent asshole, isn't he? What kind of drugs do you think he was on? Just out of curiosity. Well, we know Oscar was on edibles, right? Well, I mean, Oscar, I didn't want to do this now,

but let's just do it. Joanna was calling it. She was like, why is this guy in the show? I don't think this is a one and done. This guy's a really good actor that I like. I feel like we'll see him again. And then Oscar wins MVP for episode seven. Just an incredible key check. Comes in just every single moment with Oscar was a grand slam home run. I fucking loved it. A butcher with a smile. Yeah. What do you call Greg a fucking hanger on? A fucking dingleberry? He spits smoke in his eye, in his face. He's just, every time Greg's talking, it cuts to Oscar, and he's just so delighted. And you can see his brain, like, do I just absolutely scorched the earth with this guy or do I let him have another couple of minutes? I loved it. I love Oscar.

If episode eight was just an Oscar episode, I'd be in. That would be a bold choice. at this stage of the show. I really liked the two Mats and Shiv scenes, like in the coat room, essentially, like the one where she's calling herself hot shit. It's classic Shiv, right? Fly too close to the sun, right? She's doing a great job, like, conning her brothers, right?

When she's out on the balcony with them, and she's like, what's the gameplay? What do we do? Oh, this guy's here. Oh, what the fuck are we going to do? What do we kick him out? What do we do? Like, fantastic stuff from her.

Then she makes her pitch to him of, like, essentially, she's ready to run Waystar, which we are pretty sure she's not. But she's just like, I'm hot shit, I'm ready to go. And then the flip side of that scene when she pulls him in and she's like, what the fuck is up with the India numbers? And his demeanor also when he's caught like a little boy, you know what I mean? And he's like, oh, you mean India, you know, all this sort of stuff. Like he knows.

And also I think it's fascinating that like to make this his flaw, the faked numbers right on the heels of Ken faking numbers in last week's episode and also to make his weakness you know the weakness in his you know crew, Eba

when Roman gets threatened by Jerry given that he sent her a bunch of dick picks in this episode. So it's just sort of like Roman and Ken who are like oh Eba are you okay we're worried on a personal level like all this sort of stuff that guy he's the worst his big mistakes are

their mistakes. They're all pieces of shit, you know. You know, can we talk about Eba for a second? I can't speak for Madsen's company and his country, but is there a less equipped person to run communications than Eba? I mean, she's an absolute bat. Maybe she's a basket case partly because of the Batson relationship, but usually the communications people are a little bit social.

She even makes a joke about it. She says, like, I don't like parties. It's like, why do you have this job? you're running, you're running like a pretty hot, I don't know, Gojo. Seems like that's a complicated company to run. How does Ebo have this job? But I can't get a handle on that character. You have any thoughts, Sean?

I think it raises the question of whether she was hired just because he was attracted to her or she was elevated into that position because he wanted to pursue a relationship with her, which I think is very plausible given that he's now mailing his blood to her, which again is one of the craziest and funniest things in the show's history. On the other hand, I mean, who knows? Like, who knows if she's been traumatized by what he's doing and now she's incapable of communicating. I think it's very strange that she travels around the world with him

given that they despise each other openly. And that she, like, she, he mocked her to an aggressive degree in this episode. You know, they were taunting her about firing her. In front of Greg. In front of, you know, 40 incredibly powerful people on the precipice of a huge deal. So he's obviously a wildly reckless figure. I mean, even in the context of, like,

some of the real life figures, he may be based on. He's, I thought some of his stuff was a little caricature-ish, to be honest with you this episode. I thought Scarsguard was great, but it was the first time

where I was like, this is a little much. Now, maybe that's just the sign of how, you know, how power rains and at these kind of like

behind closed doors, parties, like people are kind of on their worst behavior. And someone like him is very unfit for this kind of deal. And that's what,

what's undergirding it with the Indian numbers. But it was a little cartoon-y for me, if I'm being totally honest, It's particularly because of the EBA stuff where it's just like, I don't know. In mixed company, I feel like you just get thrown out of the room for stuff like that in 2023, but maybe I'm just, maybe I'm off.

Maybe I'm not in those rooms and don't totally know. Your numbers are gay, like that whole situation? Another thing where I was like, this is a lot. This is a little aggressive. Well, it's weird because, you know, two episodes ago in the mountain, it felt like he was doing this stuff for a fact, but it was always in control. Right. Anytime he did this, it was a chess move.

and it didn't feel like a lot of the stuff in this episode was the chess move, which makes me wonder, like, was the guy, like, on some sort of drug? And that's why he was acting like this. And there are ways in which he is doing exactly when, you know, Shiv gives him, like, an A-plus on the first half of the party, right? Like, she's like, you're charming, you're doing everything you need to do with Nate, with that, the other thing.

And maybe he needs to crash as hard as he does in a certain way so that by the end of the episode when Ken is like, maybe I can take Gojo, we go, So maybe he could, you know, which is not something I would have thought before this episode. So what a battle. Let's take a break and then we'll hit the rest of the party. Snoring, gasping during sleep, feeling fatigued, ask your doctor about Zepbound, terseptite. The first and only FDA approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and adults with obesity.

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and save up to 20% to get the stay you expected. When you want savings, not surprises. It matters where you stay. Hilton, for the stay. Okay, so going backwards and we'll get to the party, we had the Tom Brings Shiv breakfast. We have a Rava Kendall scene. We get a Rava sighting.

It was like, oh yeah, that's right. Kendall has the next wife and two kids that we haven't seen a lot with Iverson and Sophie. I ever since Sophie and Mondale the dog, three of the biggest losers this season. We find out Sophie won't go to the school because the election and Kendall flips out. And the only reason this scene

I thought was interesting and important was he did the whole, I'm breaking my back and it's all for them to make the world safe, which was basically a Logan line. Logan, like, when that therapy episode was like, it's all for my kids. And he just kept saying it

and the kids were like, fuck you, you're not there for us at all. And so Kendall doing his version of it's all for them to make the world safe. And it's like, you haven't even thought of your kids this entire season. So I thought that was an interesting come around, Joanna. Yeah, not since the rabbit choked on a bagel has he thought about his kids, I think, last season. Yeah, not a great dad. I felt like he was a pretty good dad for a season, though.

It felt like he did care. It just felt like they were more of a family unit. And when Iverson would spin out, like you could see that parental concern. and now that's just gone. Right, and then them all dancing together at the end of season one, like that, you know, that moment where he's like, this is what I could have if I could just, like, cut myself loose from this other thing. Could not kill a waiter.

Could not just kill a waiter. But I think I don't know how much it's going to come back, because there's a part of me that thinks, you know, when you're in the final season of a show, they'll do a thing while they'll do like a goodbye tour of characters, and we're kind of getting that this season, right? Like, if this is the last to see of Nate, I wouldn't be surprised. If we don't see Marsha again, we probably will for the funeral.

But if we don't, I wouldn't be surprised. We get Stephen Root, Marklin Bakers here. You know, if this is like the only Rava scene of the season, I wouldn't be totally surprised. But the Sophie. Colin the Grim Reaper, are we seen him again? Oh, God, I hope for your sake, we are. He's not wearing jeans at the funeral. Come on.

One more. Yeah, I need Colin sobbing at the coffin. would be great. But the Sophie part is interesting because it's always been something if they don't talk about on the show, but like the, you know, the actress who plays Sophie is South Asian. And like, so she's adopted, but they don't go around and saying, like, my adopted daughter, Margot Tanembaum, right? Like, they don't say, like, our adopted daughter, Sophie, but, like, she's not white.

And so this thing where she is, like, feels, like, very nervous about the election. It's kicked off by a slogan on a Ravenhead T-shirt, which is, you know, he's the the main news anchor for ATN. Like, it gives Kendall a personal investment in the whole Mankin question in a way that he hasn't had before. Like, we knew Shiv was personally invested and we knew that Roman was personally invested. But now, Ken has a reason to be personally invested. There's, like, one very vague moment at the party with Roman where he was like, that Mankin's

an asshole. Maybe we should just, like, fuck him. And then Roman's like, no, we need to be in with him. in case he's present. He's like, oh, you're right, I see it, I see it. I see it. So, like, he's not championing Sophie here, but will he have a chance to do something like that later? Or will he not? And that's a key sort of part of him being like his dad and not giving a shit about the welfare of his kids, you know? Sean, what does your Ravenhead T-shirts say? I forget. It says, I was raising our daughter while you were running a racist news organization.

which is, which is coincidentally what I say to my wife during our worst fight. Ravenhead. He only read Mind Camp a few times. He's fine. Yeah. Speaking of getting the tour, we also got a Ravenhead moment, of course, at Logan's House, too, another character who, you know, ran through this season, or ran through this series. I love Ravenhead.

What an awesome, like, character just to whip in, like, three times a season for a minute. I mean, what, again, what a stroke of genius by this show to know that you, in honing a character like that. I mean, it's good luck and good fortune, but it's also great foresight that, like, Tucker Carlson is fired during the run of this show and that, you know, that's an obvious inspiration for that character.

They're just, there's such a clear sense of the world that they're operating in. And these shows are written like a year in advance, sometimes two years in advance. You know, like, who knows how long Jesse Armstrong has conceptualized where the show was going to go. So it's always really impressive. We talked about how the Hollywood stuff last week

was really on point. obviously some of this stuff that they're talking about, even just about Sophie and feeling unsafe at school just feels very real. It feels like it's happening in a world that is just right outside of our world. So it's impressive what they're able to do every week. I was on a couple texts about whether it was fair to fire joy.

And we all agreed Colisputron was fireable. So I'm just going to throw that out there. Who else was on those texts? Just a couple of my friends. Tucker Carlson. Was he on there? Was Colispatron a fireable event? I think we all agreed it probably was. A sleeping cave robot.

I don't mean to call him out here on the podcast. Was Van on any of those? Because Van both texted and called me to tell me that he thought Joy should have been fired. Van may have been on one of the texts. Van was anti-joy. I kind of, you know, Van's very persuasive. He kind of persuaded me. But I was like, but listen, he shouldn't have done it that way.

What Logan would have done is gone, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, finish the meal with her left and then told one of his minions to fire her. Not exploded in the restaurant the way the Roman does. Yeah. Tell Sean runs things. That's just not true. Let's just not confuse anyone out there, please. Top of the episode, they meet for brunch.

Shiv calls Logan Wastar Jesus. There's a little bit of a power dynamic shift. You could feel it, where it's not the equals anymore. And Kendall is on his phone. It's just like he's levitating above them a tiny bit. And then we see Tom and Greg Fire. some ATN people, which was hilarious. Tom does the false, pretends he feels sad,

then goes off on the side and does gestures and tries to mess up, Greg. There's a lot of Shiv calls her brothers dumb and dumber. Tom mentions the I could secure my spot post-Roycocalypse. So we're heading into this party and thinking it's going to go a certain way. But the big things, Roman needs Connor to drop out. out to help Mencken. So this is,

I have some small nitpicks with this episode and the season in general. I still don't 100% understand why Roman is so invested in the Mencken thing because he seems like the only sibling. And it goes back to my question whether there's like a real connection with him in Mencken that the show still has a chance to explore the last three episodes. But it seems like this has become his cause. I don't, do you understand it, Sean?

I think it's both things. I think there is like a, some sort of emotional pact that they, made in that bathroom during the Republican conference. And I think that it is an interesting example of Roman who has just been fucking up nonstop for the last few episodes. Let's just point that out. It's almost like he's the Black Sheep Brother in a disaster. Yes.

But I do think that there is a part of him that knows that whatever Kendall is proposing about how ATN could be good for Jimenez is simply not true. And that ultimately, if they are going to run the company, that they need to keep ATN in line with this conservative mindset. and that Mankin winning is hugely beneficial to them for a variety of reasons in terms of retaining power in the culture. And I think he knows that. I think he senses that.

He has been very smart about those kinds of things, cynical, though they may be. So I think that's influencing just as much as him wanting to kiss Mankin on the mouth, which I think is reasonable too. Well, I mean, I'm still not fully on team he's going to kiss Makin on the mouth. Though I do think it's interesting that Mankin is like looming over the season and we still haven't seen Justin Kirk. I think that's a really interesting choice. He was in the credits, by the way. Do you notice that?

No. In the opening credits? No, he was in the credits at the end of the episode. He saw a photo of him as someone was flipping through an app and showing voter count. Yeah. So I thought in the closing. I thought that was weird because I was like, did I miss the Justin Kirk scene? But he definitely wasn't in it.

Next week has to be election because it's the next day, right? So it has to be election day next week. But, like, so I hope we see him next week. But on the kiss the mouth versus not or whatever the case may be, I do think it's fascinating that when Roman flames out with Jerry at the bar interaction, he hyped up on that failure. He comes back to Connor, like, for the third time with this, like, very manic, desperate energy of, like, well, I'm going to close this.

I'm going to get this done. I'm going to get in the good graces of Macon and, like, that, you know. So, like, for the fact that the Jerry and the Macon thing are connected, I do think, like, lends credibility to your guy's idea that it is like, I don't know if it's like literally sexual, but it is sort of like a passion project for him, let's say. It's like the one person that believes in him. Sean, what were your favorite ambassador destinations for, for Connor if he could drop out? We could start with Somalia, which he, Connor felt like was a little car bomby. Yeah.

Slovenia or Slovakia, he was good on the slows. A slow. A no on the slows. No, he said no, no on the slows. No on the slows. the South Korea and North Korea probably not a great destination for him

because of the nukes. Yeah, top 10 GDP, yeah, that's not going to go. And then Oman became, you know, a possibility and talks to Willa about it and Willa didn't seem to be excited about walking through airports and maybe being able to drive on sidewalks. Wasn't really impressed by the Oman package.

I have been jealous of the diplomatic parking opportunities though. Anytime I see a car that has that card, you know, in the window, I'm like, God damn, these fuckers. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, I don't, Mogadishu doesn't seem like a good idea. Slovakian, Slovenia, can't say I know enough about those

environments. Who knows? Maybe that's a great game. We really know them through NBA, through the NBA players. I mean, here's the thing. Like, I have an intimate knowledge of this kind of brokering because, of course, Woody Johnson, who is the owner of the New York Jets, was in fact, the ambassador to England during Donald Trump's presidency. Right. And Woody Johnson,

up until this season has been extremely bad at his job owning the New York Jets. And this is what happens. These fail sons, they get these opportunities, they travel abroad, they disappear,

they abandon their franchise, Connor's going to abandon the conheads to go to fucking Slovenia. Tremont. Well, I mean, he's not going anywhere, it seems. He's just fighting for that 1%.

They still need to dangle Europe. Maybe in episode eight, they'll dangle some Europe at all. He suggested Berlin. Berlin by Christmas is one of the funniest lines of this entire show ever. That was great. I loved all, I mean, I love that they brought Mark Lynn Baker back as Max and Pierce. Like, I love that.

I love their little weird bad romance that they have. Him calling Connor My Leash. Easy My Leash. Easy My Leach. Incredible stuff. Every single thing that Alan Ruck says in this episode is so funny. He's having, like, the time of his life as Connor. Connor is my favorite character to hang with this season.

And not my favorite character, but just any time he's in a scene, it's like pure pleasure. He's just in, like, in, like, locked in. And they've dialed him back big time. I think this is by far the least amount of minutes he's had in this season. I mean, he wasn't even in last week's episode at all. But every time he's in, he's crushing it. I think we just miss him more than we used to.

That's absolutely true. But when Roman says, Khan, I don't think they're going to send you anywhere with New. And he says, well, that's insulting. I don't think I want to go anywhere that doesn't have nukes. Like, it's just so good. And then Willa just being like, I love that Willa is like, first of all, she's like, so the Sultan gets to, you know, like she doesn't want to move to fucking Oman, right? Roman's like, tell your woman to cover her shoulders and pack your bags for Oman, right?

And then, like, the reason, though, she talks about it is she's like, Mankin, right? She's like, my family is not down with Mankin. We don't want your four or five. sent to go to Manken. And so the idea that I don't know if Connor, you know, sending a message, faxing a message to the conheads could have swayed the election for Makin. But the idea that Willa's, like, political principles are key to this election. Who could have seen that coming?

Fascinating. Love it. He thinks he can open up North Korea like Nixon did China, guys. Can't rule it out. That's incredible. You're totally right. Every line he's getting, he is supercharged. They're loving writing for him this season.

It's so funny. Let's see what my WOMON thinks about Oman. Like, come on. It's so good. A couple other good lines we had where Mattson comes in and he's talking to Tom and then Shiv comes over and he said, and Tom's just kissing his ass and then Shiv comes over and he says, hey, I'm about to take a shit in your husband's mouth. And I'm pretty sure he's going to say it tastes like cocoa butter.

And Tom just makes the Tom face. but then he says goodbye to Greg with you two Gary which fucking killed me when he called Greg Gary and then I have a number two who's moon beamed on edibles and a communications offer

who's terrified of communicating moonbeamed on edibles I hadn't heard that one before that was our guy Oscar let's talk about Nate who I still want to punch in the face he comes in Kendall does a you man you

throwing off some major kingmaker vibes and does his bullshit Kendall thing. And Nate is just horrified the whole time. Did you enjoy the Nate return, Joanna? It was a good send-off for this character. I think it's a perfect... I mean, we talked about all the factors

that go into the Shiv Tom fight. Nate being there is also a huge accelerant on this fire, right? And, like, she could have... First of all, she could have put her foot down and said, no, don't bring Nate to the party. It's a bad idea of just recently reconciled with my husband. She could have texted him earlier in the day, Instead, she texted him about, I hope I didn't break your dick because of sex instead of being like, hey, man, I'm going to give you some time to get ready for the idea that Nate's coming to this party. She didn't. She tells him right before the party starts that Nate's going to be there.

But, like, deeply bad move. But Nate being there, the way in which, like, Roman and Ken are the way in which liberals and conservatives or however you want to, they're much more beautiful descriptors of the various factions that are at this party that just. the arm starring and his crew wrote. But the way that they're all there, and the way that this election does not matter to them because they're so rich and powerful and it won't really touch them in the end. And occasionally, like, their morals and their repugnance for the other side surfaces,

but it's really more about, like, reputation. Like, Cooper's there and he's a gossip. So I can't be seen talking to you about this, that or the other thing. But the way it's a joke, it's a game. We've got an electoral college vote thing that you can, like, win some kettle corn. if you guess it correctly.

One of my favorite shots was of the like, I'm sure, wagyu beef, you know, cheeseburger sliders and the I'm sure duck fat, truffle salted French fries, this like super elite version of Americana food. It's like, you know, this is a mockery, a joke because, you know, as Ken says in his speech, like, we'll all be fine. Anyway, so he's wheeling and dealing with Nate, but he fails, right? Roman fails at his job for Mencken and Kendall fails to secure anything from Gil or Jimenez or Nate

that side of the party. Fails on both of them. Doesn't matter because they are smart enough to go track down Eba on the balcony and get the truth about the numbers from India. And so they did actually accomplish what they needed to, which is that they found a flaw

in Madsen's plan, which is going to... That ultimately feels like the thing that is going to lead to them blowing the deal, right? There's one thing that matters with Nate after when Nate's like, I'm going to leave and Kendall gets mad and he tries to get a little agro and Nate says, I don't know what

you think this is. I'm not Gil and you're not Logan and that's a good thing. Huge line. I thought that was really interesting because over and over again, people are telling Kendall like, you're not Logan. You're not Logan. It's actually a good thing that you're not Logan, but he's just, he's not hearing it. By the time we get to the end of the episode, he tells Frank, we go reverse Viking. Waystar requires Gojo. He throws a civil, siblings out of the bus. I love them. I'm not in love with them.

One head, one crown. Like everything we've been talking about the last couple episodes, we're like, you know, just the siblings, can you guys just stay together? Not only can they not stay together, but now Kendall's like,

I can sniff this. It's going to be me. I'm going to wear the crown, period. I thought, I do agree with you that. I think that Nate line was so key because I think usually when people say you're not your dad to these characters,

they take it. It's an insult, right? Jerry says it. Frank, Carl said it last week, right? Like, you're not, you're not Logan. This is not what this is. And Nate, I think, is the first one to be like, that's a good thing. And I think it's significant that Nate has no Kendall so long, right?

I love that line. He says, I forgot how eager you are to get late at a party. You know what I mean? Like, he's talking about politically, but invoking, you know, that they've been bros since college or maybe in high school, I don't know. And then all the other times in the show where when someone tells one of the kids that they are like their dad, like when Matt said, Shiv, she's like her dad. They're like glowing and smiling and so happy. But we at home are like,

no, don't be your dad. That's terrible. That's going to be very bad for you emotionally. Sean, walk us through your emotions as Jerry cut the ties with Roman and said, I'm out. I'm done. Money, eye-watering sums. If I ever get a whiff of anything undermining my narrative over the next five years, I will go public with copious amounts of photos of your genitalia. So long, Roman. Yeah, this is a good time to let you know, Bill. I, too, have retained a personal reputation management. And so, you know, in all our future endeavors, no bad words about me publicly. I'm sorry, Sean.

I'm offended. I thought that was a, I thought Joanna made a great point, which is that all of the sort of most critical emotional relationships were shown to be, you know, at a, at a tenuous moment. You know, we see Tom and Chip. We see Jerry and Roman. We see Rava and Kendall. And even Matson and Ebba, you know, like all of these, you know, a, you know, a presumed romances that are deeply fraught. And this was kind of the,

this was the conclusion, right? It was over that Roman tried to make nice. He doesn't really know how to say, I'm sorry. I think there's even a version of this where if he had just approached her and said, I've made a huge mistake.

I'm so sorry. This has been an incredibly confusing week for me. My father passed. I'm trying to figure out what to do with the future of my life. I've done some terrible things, and I really apologize. Maybe he could have salvaged it,

but he came in, blustery and weird and awkward and insinuating as he always does and she was like fuck this guy I've done all the things up until the moment when I need to crash down on him and now I'm gonna get what I deserve for having to put up with this

and then I thought it was notable that the last thing she basically says to him is I could have got you there but nope and she still you know to lure that over him at the final moments of their relationship I thought was a really smart way for them to go out I'm not sure how much Jerry will see

going forward though this felt a little bit like a is this the end of Jerry for this show? I mean, she probably deserves a stronger send-off since she became one of the signature characters of the series. But her relationship with Roman became the centerpiece of her role on the show. And so there felt something, I don't know if you guys felt that too, if this was like a conclusive moment for her. I still feel like she's in the CEO running for episode 10. You know, she's got the most blackmail material and she's the best person at the job. And there's a world where she's just running Waystar at the end of the.

But that feels too optimistic for a Jesse Armstrong ending. I don't think we'll see much of her. But I do think the funeral, whatever the funeral may be. Oh, yeah. We'll provide a lot of, everyone's going to be there, right? Joanna, do you believe her when she says, I could have gotten you there, but nope? Do you think she actually believes that? Yeah.

I think Jay Smith Cameron gave an interview in the official podcast last week. I think it was where she was talking about how, like, Jerry became more emotionally attached to Roman than maybe she even really realized. And again, it was sort of like a messed up mother son slash Dominatrix other thing with them.

But there were ways in which when we saw, again, time and time again, we'll see people working together and you're like, okay, if you can just keep hold of each other, you could rise this way and then they don't, they all fall apart. You know, because like I don't have a lot of faith

in the team of Frankie and Kenny making it all the way through with their gambit. Or if they do, it's just not going to, it's again, it's going to be that like hollow crown, that MD victory for Ken. You don't believe in reverse Viking, Joanna? I mean, I don't know. Pillage their village. We didn't talk about the Mattson versus Kendall scene where Kendall finally tries to get

a little agro with Madsen and vice versa where Madsen's just fucked up at this point. Rags at New York City, which I know really hurt Sean's feelings. called it second world. I haven't been to solar Singapore, so maybe he's got a point. Who can tell? I need to travel more. Kendall said, you know, we still run shit, which I thought was interesting. And then he keeps going, your numbers are exploding.

They're literally unbelievable. Mattson calls the numbers gay. It gets super weird. And then Kendall goes, love the deal, biggest overpay in history. And they have this weird fake hug. And Shib's like horrified in the background. I don't even know what to make of that scene. Can you explain any piece of that, Joanna?

What is the end game with those two maniacs? I mean, it's just like a dick measuring competition, right? Of, like, you know, who can be the least scared? Because Mattson also is like, oh, your numbers, you know, I'm really curious to dig into those projections you made. And Ken just, like, brushes it off by saying, like, yeah, sure, projections versus, like, your actual fake numbers. you know what I mean?

So I think it's like a, who can smile and smile and smile and be a villain? Like, who can just like overpower the other with this bluster and bravado? But decent job by Kendall, though, two episodes ago, he couldn't handle the back and forth. So at least he's stepped up a tiny bit. I think Sean was right to call out the victory that Ken and Roman make in this episode, the tactical victory of this. I don't know how Mattson comes back from this. And Shiv knows that she hitched herself to the wrong wagon.

Those India numbers, Sean. Yeah. Hard to trust. Just got to build another India. You know, let's make another one. I was going to say, Mattson, so he's goose in the India numbers. He's mailing blood to the head of comms that he had an affair with. He is seemingly on drugs in front of 40 of the most powerful people, at least in our country.

and he tweeted Nazi stuff and made a homophobic comment in front of the whole room and I'm going to say it's not going great for Madsen. It's my expert take. But he didn't stick his dick in the guack and scream that people are data. So, you know, can we give him a tiny win? I just want to point out that he did all this

in front of Carly Flight, the pod goddess, who I assume is just based on either Joanna or Kara Swisher who's hosting the official succession podcast. I didn't think Carerswisher. I was like Joanna and Mallory, maybe a combo. Bill, were you offended that you weren't in that room, that some proxy for you wasn't, the podfather wasn't there? It would have been great if they just dropped a podfather reference.

They were like, hey! This is like, why wasn't Bill Simmons in the movie air? You know, like, we need to get more Bill Simmons in our favorite media. It's an outrage. Still an outrage. Was the other pair, was it Joan Mika? Is that who we think the like the couple that he was like? Yeah.

Yes. Definitely. Larry and Mary. I love one shows those. The entourage would still be on if they had figured out how to navigate. These people aren't the actual celebrities, but we're making fun of them. Instead, they just got real celebrities. The fact that last week was like the Hollywood, satirized Hollywood,

and this is the political media episode was like, yeah, delicious, delightful. MVP's of the episode. Oscar clearly wins the gold medal. Just an absolutely epic Oscar performance. And then I thought Greg was, I just love. Sean, you said this either last episode or couple episodes. Greg has this just talent of being able to move into conversations and be likable and somehow win people over and get information.

And this one, Oscar's just fucking ridiculing him. And by the end of it, they're just having a great time. He's bragging about how many people he fired. They're yelling, Eba. She walks up the stairs. Which it still can't be ruled out that Greg's going to be the CEO. He just does it. He just jackknifes right in there.

He slits their throats. That's how he gets close to people. He's a sycophant. You know, he's like he's a world-class suck-up. And Mattson knows it, and he doesn't care. Because, you know what? Sometimes it's nice to be sucked up to, especially when you're having a tough night. And you're dealing with all the terrible things you've done to Eba.

And you're trying to keep this deal on track. And you're trying to manage Shiv's big ass of how she wants to run the company, even though he's acquiring it. And so, like, I think Greg knows that ultimately you have to kiss ass to survive in this environment. And he doesn't care. he's got no shame. Like, think about him firing those people, you know, in the scene earlier in the episode

where he's like signing off and he's like, nice. And you can, he's saying nice while he's still on the call. Like, he's just, he doesn't, he has no soul. He's a hilarious character. And I think what Joe pointed out, like, maybe four or five episodes ago that maybe the writers are aware of the fact that like, you know, Greg is a shithead. And we need to make sure that it's clear that Greg is a shithead this season. Like, it's very clear that the disgusting brother is not a good guy.

And if he left the Waystar Royko family to join Gojo, wouldn't be shocking, right? Anything that's better for him is what he's going to pursue. Well, he says, HR says I'm the right person for the job because I care, but I don't. Any way the wind blows, that's where Greg's going to be. And I think that, like, there was such a similarity between the way that he, you know, when they were saying like, Abba, she was, like, walking up the stairs. And he was just sort of, like, mimicking them and, like, sliding his eyes over to see how they were doing it

so that he could do it the same way, was so similar to the way that he just, like, cozyed up under Marcia in that episode where he's just like, who can I just sort of toadie up to? And, you know, is this where the power is? I want to stand right next to it. It's pretty gross. Election night will be episode eight.

The funeral is episode nine? Election night and the funeral in the same episode? Could the funeral be the last episode? Yeah, it's either the penultimate or the last. And if it's the penitente, the, we got info on what the, finale title is, which is with open eyes, and it's from the same John Barryman Dream Song 29 poem

that is titled all of the finale's, which is about a young man grappling with grief, depression, that he can't shake guilt over the death of someone, fear that he killed that person. And when it first came up, it was like, oh, Kendall just killed a guy, so it's related to Kendall. But I think at this point,

it has more to do with, did I kill my father or can I get over the death of my father or something like that? Because the line is, with open eyes, he attends blind. So it's this sort of like,

I think it's reckoning for Kendall, right? Like, Kendall has, barring last week, and I've loved the time I've spent with like Roman and shit, but Kendall has been like, we haven't really seen Jeremy Strong

like fully, fully cook. And I'm expecting that that is going to be like the big pathiosis of the finale. and I think that a reckoning for him. So I almost think funeral penultimate and then something else in the finale, or funeral finale, could be.

I agree. He's the tragic hero of the show, and he owes husband. The show opens with him, the show is going to close with him. Whether he wins or what have you, I think it's impossible to say. I don't think anybody's going to win,

as I've said before, but I think the show is ultimately about him. This is your least favorite part of the episode when I asked for predictions for who's going to be running things at the end of episode 10. Sean, you up. Oscar.

Old Moonbeam himself. Oscar. I'd like to add Oscar to the people that I would have been totally fine with a spinoff. A better call, Saul like spin-off. Like Tom and Greg would be the number one candidate, but Oscar and the whole Gojo enterprise, you could have talked me into. Set in Sweden. You want to stock a Gothenburg set show about a bunch of shows.

about a bunch of shithead coders from Gothenburg. Jerk off coder. Sounds great. Yeah, we forgot. Ebba had that little tidbit about how Matza didn't even know how to code. Enjoy that. We propped him up. She was throwing daggers.

Yeah, I was going to say also cold from a lot of real life examples. Yeah. Yeah. Can I say, Bill, that in this episode, when Greg is cozing up to Mattson, this was the closest I've been to agreeing with you that Greg could worm his way to the top of something. Joanna, welcome aboard, the Greg Express. I don't want it. I don't think it's great.

I'm just saying, like, this week I saw the vision. I did. Is cousin Greg, you're Malik Monk for Prestige TV, Bill? You've never given up. I can't get over the fact how important he was in the pilot episode. Mm-hmm. That's true. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the tragic hero arc for Kendall is wrong. And it's seeing Greg in that costume, that Dodderick costume, that was in the first episode, right?

That was our introduction to him. And then maybe this is his hero's journey. And maybe it's an inspiring tale of one man rising from the bottom to the top of this organization. Crazier things have happened. I don't know. I don't know if we would call Nepo Baby Greg ever at the bottom, despite the fact that he was vomiting out the eye holes of Doddrick in the...

I don't know what you mean. He's earned every single stripe in his organization. He's another one. You and's another one we're going to see again at some point. We have to see him. Definitely. Absolutely. Last thing, because we're always so positive about this show,

I wanted to read a rebuttal for my friend Joe House, who sent this text to me and Andy Greenwald this morning. I'm so mad at succession, and I don't think I can forgive them. They killed the show and they killed Logan. The extremely abbreviated version that you didn't ask for, the writer spent all of the first 3.3 seasons convincing us that the kids are dipshits, not serious people. Guess what? Tremendous job writers. I believe it. The kids are dipshits. And the show is now March of the dipshits.

All of the business stuff is so over the top as a mixture of farce and camp. Every single scene with Kendall, the adult bedshitting addict who wrapped at his dad's birthday requires such a suspension of disbelief. He's in charge of a multi-billion dollar mega media entity because they found a note in Logan's library. Mountain Top showdowns of the Nordic Viking buyer, I really hate you. Get the fuck out of here. I'm going to watch the remainder of the show, of course,

and it will be fine when Tom and Shiv win. But God damn it, Logan was the only thread to business reality. That's Joe House's take, English major in college. I think he's right, but this show being a camp and a farce is the point. It was always a farce. It was never documentary about how power operates. There are things that ring true, but could you have you talk to people in this universe?

They don't talk like the characters in this show. They don't have Jesse Armstrong's erudition and way with words. That's the whole point. So while I agree with Joe, and I agree that Logan's absence is a real challenge for the show because he was the centrifugal force that everyone was operating around. I think they've actually done a very, very good job this far. And I thought it was one of the few truly bold decisions on a show like this

to remove that force. and see what the landscape of the show would be like for six, seven episodes without it. Like that actually required like a kind of, I don't want to say guts, but like a kind of boldness that most shows like don't usually pursue. So I've been digging it, honestly. And I think if like the show were, if we didn't know this was the final season, I might feel a sense of unease, but the fact that this is just like a run of, you know, seven, six, seven episodes. Without him, I'm like, this is interesting. to me. I don't know if it would be interesting to me for like three seasons, but it's interesting

to me in this contained end of the series. And I agree, like, I agree that this is not a business documentary, but I would also push back on the idea that like massive, powerful decisions aren't made on things as small as a piece of paper found out of filing cabinet. Like, stupid shit dictates the halls of power all the time in this country, right? In this world. Yeah. There were two decades removed from hanging chads. Yeah. You know, it's an exaggerated version of it, but it's not outside the realm of possibility that like any, maybe not all of these things would happen, but that any single one of them would happen feels reasonable to me. So I guess the thing that that text made my brain kind of realized that I felt deep down was that I do think they

would be in the people around them a little more suspicion and amusement at Kendall, you know, having power again. because he really did hit rock bottom at all these different ways, right? So even like with the New York Post, would they be putting him on the front page of the New York Post every day? Like, dipshit CEO promises eternal life.

And is there like one like small slice that they're missing with how the public would perceive Kendall maybe moving into the power vacuum? You're like, why aren't they playing good, good tweet, bad tweet this season? So that we can see all the like, we already know he was a punching bag. It would probably be worse without Logan,

right? What's going to happen at ATN? Because we know how media works. Like this would be like the sexiest story. Like power vacuum. Who's in charge? This would like Madsen's performance at that party would be a page six thing. We don't know. We don't have a real comp for this.

Because obviously like James Murdoch is probably the pretty clearest inspiration for Kendall. But you know, he's he's from Australia. He's not necessarily in like. the American cultural orbit in the same way that the Kendall character is. We don't have someone who's an early 40s New Yorker who has inserted himself time and

time again into the cultural conversation. So it's a little hard to know what relationship the media or the public would have with someone like Kendall. He's an unusual figure. And like if Rupert Murdoch dies and we see some sort of public dispute amongst Lachlan

and James, I think that would be really interesting and it would be covered in the exact that you're describing Bill. You would totally see like a page six showdown conversation every day. But Kendall is even more high profile than that, even more high profile than James and Lachlan in many ways. He was going on late night talk shows or at least planning to to talk about his personal politics and his father's bad behavior.

So this, again, this is like a really outsized thing that they're trying to portray here. I mean, but it's the Trump kids too, right? Like that's in the mix. And certainly when Trump was president. we were getting Trump kid stories almost every single day, you know what I mean, and their varying degrees of success and failure. So, yeah, well, I mean, the point is it's not too late, Sean, for you to be the Kendall you wish to see in the world.

If you want to, you know, move back to New York and be a central figure on page six every day, I support you in that. As you know, the amount of identification I have with Kendall's character is deeply upsetting to me, and I'm just trying to get through it. I've not killed anyone, I promise. But we bear some similarities, unfortunately. Joe has to send a second text because I told him I was going to read the first text. He said, let me be super duper extra clear.

The trajectory of the show is 10 million times better than the mercy killing performed by the Game of Thrones writing. My single biggest complaint, they had all this time to give us the tiniest indication that one of these kids was capable and competent. And instead, it was relentless bedshitting and dickpicks, the general counsel and public self-abasement. and humiliation. In general, I think he's right, but I also think that they have shown us that each one of them has an individual power that could be meaningful to the bottom line.

And is also going to submarine it for themselves because they won't be able to help themselves. Exactly. Yes. It's good. Good debate on the prestige pod. Thanks, House. We'll invite him on, you know.

We can talk it out. I want him to love the show as much as we do. He loves the, House loves the show. I think these are some decent points though. It did make me think. I don't necessarily agree. But I do think it would be a bigger deal from the outside that these three dipshits were potentially taking over ATN. I do think the energy.

So again, I don't want to get too tangled up in the timeline thing because there was that whole conversation of like, is every episode a day? We were trying to do math on that, stuff like that. I don't think every episode is a consecutive day. but I do think every episode is like within 24 hours in the, you know, we see the kids at breakfast, and then it ends with bedtime for Bonzo and Tom. Like, that's a day, right? So every episode has been like, even when it's overnight in the LA episode, it's like midday the day before to like midday the next day. Like that's sort of the thing. So there is this sort of energy of its, Logan has only been dead less than a week at this point or about a week. And so there's this like momentum. There's an election.

There's momentum around that. So it's not just like which of these dipshits is going to fail to, you know, is going to fuck up the most. There's like a lot of other things going on. And again, I think that that can, that gas can sustain this phenomenal, witty, interesting, emotionally complex show through the end of its final season. I don't know that I would be interested in more seasons without Logan, you know. Can I just take one point about that specifically? I think that one of the reasons, this is just my take on it, one of the reasons why they decided to kill Logan when they did

and to remove this like ferocious, masculine energy from the show. Because that was one thing that Brian Cox brought to every episode was intensity, rage, this old school vision of leadership where you yelled at people and you riled people up and you manipulated them aggressively and you broke the law. And you were, you know, an awful boss. And moving that transition. to his children who are, you know, for lack of a better word, more beta. You know, they have a lot of bad habits, but they are, it's a softer version of power, which is like really the environment

that we live in now. This is like our society over the last 10 years has transitioned a lot. And I talk to my wife about this all the time with like leadership and her work, work life, how different it is than how it was 20 years ago when she first started in it. And she's in, you know, she's in a corporate culture. We've seen it in media. Like, it's happened all over the place. And the show is very knowingly, I think, recognizing that our culture has gone through this massive transition. That's fascinating to actually remove the figure and whether he's a Donald Trump or a Harvey Weinstein or whatever simulacrum you want him to stand in for. Logan represented something that is starting to die in our culture or at least getting quieter and going behind the scenes and being more careful. And that feels like a big choice that they made.

I think that like having worked at Vanity Fair through a change administration of Graydon Carter to Ritika Jones, and I really respect both of them and their flavors of power, but they are very, it is that old school, like, masculine power. And then, like, Ritika is incredible, but her power is different, softer. You're not bullying people. No one's going to, like, get on the phone. I'm not saying grade never did this, but, like, you know, no one's going to, like, shout down the phone at someone in that administration.

That kind of power doesn't fly. There was, like, and not only when the top person goes, not only does the top person go, but so many of the, like, people just below them at the company goes because the culture radically changes. And I agree. I think that is a really fascinating dynamic to explore how that's happening across all halls of power. It does raise one really interesting thing to House's point, though, Bill, which is the question of, like, can you successfully lead by not bullying people? And if you remove a Logan, what are the organizations look like in the after? Now, obviously bullying and that kind of leadership is horrible, but what, like, the substitute being dipshits like Ken and Roman probably isn't much better. And that's another insightful thing that I think the show is kind of bringing to the four. Our last link to the bullying leadership of the past in real life is Chris Ryan. That's really, he's the last one. What a piece of shit. After every pod, he yells at me about my performance. I mean, and today with the Yellowstone news, there's no living with him. What are we going to do? God. Yeah. Yeah. But that's probably the best thing that ever happened to Yellowstone, right?

Like, that's a case where we're removing John Dutton actually, like, that maybe they can grow the show because if Koster was just going to... Well, they're ending it. They're ending it. Is it over? I thought they were bringing in McConaughey. It's like literally going to end? They're calling it a spinoff.

If McConae comes in, they're calling it a spin-off. But it's going to be Yellowstone colon something. Love when we move a gigantic national park. identity to a different state with a different character. Very easy stuff. I always rude for Koster. He came to a Grantland party once. Amo is in.

Mo is taking his side over anyone else. He was so nice at that party. He was so great. Everyone was in. Yellowstone colon, Yosemite. Like, is that what we're going to do? It's just weird. Yellowstone colon, the ringer.

All right, this podcast was produced by Kai Grady. We will see you. We know we're going to have screeners for episode eight. So we will see you same time, same channel right after. episode eight ends. And then next to, who knows? Can't wait for the election. Sean, Joanna, great to see you. Thanks, Bill.

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