The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Succession’ Season 4, Episode 8 Recap

Episode Date: May 15, 2023

Bill, Sean, and Joanna are back to break down the eighth episode of ‘Succession’ Season 4. They discuss the harrowing and accurate portrayal of a presidential election night, Roman’s true nature, and the terrifying impact that the Roy family has on the rest of the country. Along the way, they talk about Justin Kirk’s chilling performance as the far-right presidential candidate and the media’s influence on American politics. They close by unpacking a fan conspiracy theory about Lukas Matsson and updating their predictions on who will be running Waystar Royco at the end of the season. Hosts: Bill Simmons, Sean Fennessey, and Joanna Robinson Producer: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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it, presenting the Friars turkey breast only from Boershead. The backyard tradition now available behind the counter. Visit your local deli today. Discover the craftsmanship behind every bite boar's head committed to craft since 1905. It's the prestige TV podcast. My name is Bill Simmons here with Sean Fantasy and Joanna Robinson. And we are sifting through the wreckage of the American Society after episode eight of succession. Joanna, you worried that Jesse Armstrong's maybe overall philosophy of where the show was going? gets dark, I would say it got dark. Yeah. Alas, Kentucky Bill.

Alas, vanity. This is one of the most harrowing hours of television I've ever seen in my life. And even rewatching the second time, my heart was still hammering because it was giving me 2016 PTSD. And I don't know, not to be of dramatic, but I am not eagerly looking forward to watching this episode again, even though I think it's one of the best hours of television I've ever scene. I thought it was incredible. What did you think, Shad? I think it's probably

like the only good post-Trump piece of political satire that I've seen. Like maybe the only thing I've seen where I was like, this is it. This is, this is our destiny, our future is in the hands of wealthy asshole morons. And it's only like 14 of them that are making every decision.

And Jesse Armstrong really seems to have a lot of contempt for our country and the way that we make decisions. And he made that clear through the eyes of the characters of the show. And, you know, I dance with an old man. I drank things that are not normally drinks, you know? Like, that's that evening that Greg had foretold a very difficult future for the American

society. So I thought it was absolutely masterful and very, very scary. So they spent 37 episodes establishing that the three Roy kids had no business being involved, really in anything that cousin Greg was a complete moron and that Tom would basically do anything to be in a position of power and he didn't care. And these are the five central people, basically deciding an American election.

Now I wonder, like, Joanna, going backwards, you think this was the plan from day one? I mean, I think it was at least on their mind in last season's episode with the whole, you know, horse race episode that we had. But even if it wasn't on their mind,

what is so masterful about what they do on this show is that it feels so intentional, Like, catching us rooting for Roman, even when Roman says trollish things all the time, and then making us sit through this hour of television where he is just full-blown, right-wing troll the whole episode, making us confront caring about this kid. And like, I shouldn't call him a kid, grow man. And knowing that it's not a heel turn, because everything he says in this episode is something

he would have said once or twice in a previous episode, but to hear it nonstop and to know what the actual stakes are of that is so chilling. So to your point, Bill, like it feels like something that's been building intentionally from the beginning. I don't know that it was always specifically going to come here, but they've been seating in, you know, ever since Connor declared he's going to, like, election stuff has been seated in from the beginning. I know that they're all cognizant of the way in which the media and, you know, rich people in power wrapped around our democracy and choking it. And so if it wasn't technically the plan, it was a brilliant, happy accident, you know.

Well, so I watched the first two episodes of the first season again, mainly because I wanted to confront you guys about my Greg theory and see how many breadcrumbs were dropped in that first episode. But one of the things I really noticed was how Roman was. was established in those first two shows is he basically was exactly like he was in this episode. Same thing. Like, just not that likable and just this petulant kind of dark dude. Like he, you know, the softball game would be the most famous example of that where he just

kind of rips this family apart for no reason, almost for sport. And then over the course of this, the first season, then the second season as he gets involved with Jerry, whatever was going on with those two. and then, you know, you started a really feel for him. He was this damaged, really damaged guy who was obviously the whipping boy of his dad in so many different ways. And there seemed like there was some path

for redemption for him, even this season. And then it's flipped the other way. And he's reverted back to this version he was in that pilot episode on steroids. And I wonder, like, you know, Sean, like, maybe one of the themes of this, this whole show and then definitely this episode is like people do literally anything for power. This was all lurking inside him anyway, but as he realizes like, oh, I can actually have a

direct line to the president. I got kicked in the T's so many different times, so many different ways. Every time I've had a chance to be in charge of something, I've fucked it up. This is kind of my last chance. And I'm selling my soul of the devil now for this. I think that's the read, right? 100%. I think that's exactly. I think. Everything that you said is right. I think it was smart to think about where we started with Roman and how he made these decisions. And Kendall, too.

I mean, Kendall, obviously, the episode once again ends with him in a moment of emotional intellectual compromise and trying to reckon with the decisions that he's made and what they mean. There were probably more than 150 individual one-liners in this episode that I wrote down and just thought, like, wow, what an absolute gem that is or how insightful or how interesting or how funny or how dark. But the one that resonates. the hardest with me is Roman saying nothing fucking matters. That is everything. That is like no matter what,

I don't care, cynicism to the death, whatever we can do to get what we want because we deserve it, because we are in power and we deserve more power. And that I do think that that is the kind of culminating concept of the entire show.

And whenever we talk about like predictions and who's going to win and all this other stuff, I'm like, it doesn't matter. It's going to end with the world on fire. Like that is, I think that that is ultimately what Armstrong is writing through with the characters. And this was like, you know, the show has, especially in the last couple of seasons, been really fun and funny.

And so it's been really fun to talk about. And this episode is funny, but it is chilling at times, you know, because it's like really confronting the consequences of people who act like this all day long when something that really matters and affects other people's lives come into the frame. And that's what an election can be. For some people, it can change their lives. And asking and making us complicit in like every time that we laughed at these people and then saying like, look what you were laughing at. Look what you weren't taking seriously enough, which is, you know, very Trumpian in nature. But I think also to your point, right before he says nothing matters, he says dad's dead. Nothing matters, right? So like that's a shadow hanging over all of this. And something I was thinking about is like it's obviously been burbling there for Roman as you point out, Bill, from the beginning. Ken's, I mean, would we call it pettiness?

I don't know, whatever he decides in this final moment in the face of Schiff's betrayal. Tom's, like, you know, grasping for power, Greg's willingness to betray, like, all this sort of stuff has been burbling there. But maybe kept at bay, or at least in contrast to Logan's villainy, like they're allowed to be a little kinder, a little bit more moral, a little bit all these other things. So they don't seem so bad because Logan's there. But you remove Logan and all of a sudden, like, all of their ugliness is so much more clearly on display, both as they reckon with this big thing that has happened that I think is drawing out their ugliness. But also, without that to compare it to, we're like, oh, my God, these are very horrible people, which we always knew, but like you really feel in this episode.

Yeah, and think how we start out where these three people are aligned and you wonder how long it's going to last. And by the end of this episode, Shiv's trying to shank both of them. And she's really not much better than either of them in a lot of different ways. She's trying to pretend we can't let this monster take the White House. But she'll screw over her husband, her family. She doesn't care. She just wants some sort of influence. Kendall, who kind of knows and can't help himself, right?

Like, you know, and he's reconciling my daughter is, you know, my daughter feels. feels threatened. I'm supposed to protect my kids. That's my number one job. And I can't even do that. And now I'm shifting toward this because I finally get the job I've always wanted. This guy, if he gets elected, I have a chance now to get Waystar back, which is what I've wanted. So we've reverted back to where all these people were kind of in the pilot. Shiv's this political operator. Roman's just this soulless fucking nightmare. And Kendall, all he wants is to be the head of Waystar. And he doesn't care how he gets there and who he steps over. That quote you mentioned from Roman, that's a scene when Kendall and Roman are, that's the steak chicken analogy, which I thought was

great. They bring in, Joanna, you love when they bring in the old when they were kids family stuff. The kid stuff. Yeah. You always got the state, you always got chicken. I was wanted the steak, but it was always chicken. And then Roman says, we'll be in the West Wing. Nothing matters. Dad's dead. And the country's a big pussy waiting to be fucked. Let's just jam our heads in bosoms of history. Fucking crazy. But that's... Insert motorboat noises.

Yeah, and motorboat noises. That's his belief, right? He genuinely believes that. I don't think he's acting. He's like, I don't care. We can have power if this happens. That's it. Yes.

Yes. It's not even a belief. It's just like it's an innate lesson that is ingrained into him because of his lineage. You know, like there's not, there's no ideology. Like, there's not even any thinking, really. It's not as if he thinks that the way that Mencken sees the world. At a certain point, he references that maybe it would be good,

actually, for the country to go back 20 years, which I also thought was kind of chilling, but I don't actually even believe he thinks that. I think he's just trying to rationalize to himself this move that benefits him. And that's really what it boils down to is, every decision that is made by every single character

in this episode is about self-interest. Tom, Greg, even Jess, even Jess being confronted by having to try to maybe influence Greg or at least examine what Greg is about to go do. I thought that was amazing. Everybody that they brought in with the exception of

I think Frank Carl and Hugo sitting back and watching as Rome Burns. I mean, that was what that felt like. They were in the Coliseum. Worst election night party ever, right? Hugo, hanging with Hugo, Frank Carl, and Ray. Follow question just really quickly.

If you are doing a massive event, like a draft thing at the ringer, are you ever serving lemon LeCroix, objectively, the worst LeCroix? I don't drink LeCroix. Like, we're not talking lemon LeCroix, right? At the ringer? And sushi with lots of sauces. We have those two, and then Shiv's the other one where this is the most manipulative

she's ever been. But the funny thing with Shiv, bad at being manipulative. That's been her thing for four seasons, right? she thinks she's pulling the strings. It never even occurs to her. Oh, if I lie to these guys that I called Nate, maybe Kendall will call me on it and call Nate. And she's just like, oh, shit, I didn't cover the tracks on that one.

All three of these people were morons. That was an egregiously bad blunder, though. I mean, she's obviously in a really twisted emotional state. She's pregnant. She just had this follow-up fight with Tom. He's asking her if their pregnancy is a move. So she's totally spun out at this point. She's trying to keep the mats and stuff on the.

track. She's already had this, you know, emotional conversation with Kendall, which is like, you're a good guy, you're a good guy. And then that's like, that was just an all-time blunder. That's like, that was the biggest cell phone of the season. It was a tough night for the Shiv lovers. I'll tell you that right now. Yeah, watching her do that, when she calls and she's, she's getting like the, you know, dial tone information service thing, I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's not the move at all. Like, you know, I was like watching a kid just really, quickly snarl themselves into a lie that they can't get out of. And you're like, there was a way to try to finesse your way out of it.

It was not, as soon as she did that, you're like, you're going to get caught so fast doing that. And then, you know, to your steak and chicken point, like the way that that all plays out with Ken outside, the conference room, turning over his shoulder, her face, his face, Greg's fucking face when he throws her into the bus, like all that sort of stuff. they all look like kids. And when Ken comes back in the room, they all look like kids. Roman looks like a kid. Kids fighting over their toys. And the way in which these particular kids

fighting over their toys has ramifications for the entire country. That's the terrifying part. I liked how they filmed that. I mean, this show is exceptionally filmed. But just Kendall leaving and seeing him through the glass and then he has that wait moment and kind of looks over it.

Shiv and then it cuts to her and she makes that face like, oh, fuck, you know, and her face is barely moving, but you could just see it in her eyes. Really good stuff. The other piece that I really liked about this episode before we hit into like some of the bits is just the sense of history that everybody had as this was happening, which I feel like, you know, sometimes I felt that way like on a much, much smaller scale, but like when I was doing TV covering the NBA for a couple years and one of the games that we were doing the postgame show for was the spurs heat game six where it seemed like the spurs were about to win the title and then ray allen made this miracle shot and it was like the closest the team ever came to winning the title without winning it the spurs

and we were about to go on tv again way smaller stakes but you get this sense like holy shit like this is this is a momentous occasion and i'm here and i have to figure out how to kind of talk and assess what just happened. And you could see the people on the show kind of like, wait, the decisions we make right now are going to be remembered for not only the rest of our lives, but for the country. And then you think, like, who's making these decisions? It's fucking Tom. And it's Greg.

Idiot Greg is the one that's walking down to tell the control room, like, yeah, we're calling it. I just, I like the weightiness of it. I think that's a really hard thing to pull off. Think about the Kendall toast during the last episode. We watch history, we make history, and then one day we become it. That was a clear signal that they were going to take the reins of history in this next episode. And it's scary. These are not sophisticated people.

There's an interesting progression of that over the course of the episode, right? Because to your point, like, Tom starts the episode with that whole like, you know, China invades Taiwan, tactical nukes back to Amoeba. It's a long way back to pomp. life, you know what I mean? Like, you know, all of that. Those are the stakes, the massive stakes that he puts on this. But by the end of the episode, everyone is trying to wash their hands of their individual involvement in this, right? Like, Ken says to shit, we won't actually be making him. It's not the final, final. There's the court shit. It's all kind of fuzzes along. It's something Roman says, hey, guys, not my call. Tom says, even though earlier in the episode,

he said it was his call. He's like, not my call, your call. The whole Greg and Justine, where Greg is like, well, it doesn't matter if I go or not just like, it matters. For a few minutes, it matters, you know? And, you know, the legal process is going to be like, like, everyone's just sort of like, oh, we didn't, we didn't actually just do what we just did. Right. And like Tom's face is being plastered on other news sites as like he made the call, but he's like, well, I didn't do it.

You know, but like, yes. Every step they take, every small decision they make. If, you know, if Tom doesn't do coke, if Darwin doesn't do. If Darwin doesn't get wasabi in his eye, if all these things didn't happen, do we wind up here at the end of the hour? You know what was cool? Those are all great points.

You mentioned the Jess Greg thing. I thought it was so cool that they used Jess for that moment because she's been a French character for the most part, right? She's like the harried communications person who's always seems kind of confused that she's even gotten, you know, we have no background with her, right? there's never been a scene where she calls home and like, oh my God, the fucking Roy family, you won't believe what happened today.

We just know her as like the dumbfounded, harried, kind of confused, but going along with it for whatever reason person. And then this is the one time she spoke up with Greg. And I don't even really know what she thought the end game was for that, but she kind of felt obligated to do it because she's a good person. Like, are you sure? Yeah. You're really going to do this?

You're going to go down and tell them this? It was, I thought, a great scene. I completely agree. I watched that scene a few times trying to really locate the purpose of it because there have been times throughout the show where the expression on her face and just her acting. And I don't, the actress's name escapes me, so I apologize. But she's kind of like, are you sure, Kendall, this is what you want me to do? That's kind of often her reaction to the thing that has asked, but not in a judgmental way and not in a way that threatens him.

And that's a, you know, that's a huge thing to do when you're like. This is what Mallory does. Mallory is the same face. Just kind of big puppy dog guys, just kind of staring at you into your soul as you decide what to do. When you work for a powerful man, you know,

that these are the things you have to do to get through. But I think that it was such a clever and patient use of her and her as an actress to let her be the person to say, are we sure? This is what we all want to do right now. Her body language was great. Like even when he was walking away,

it was like, do I follow him? I stop him and she just kind of was teetering back and forth. Really cool scene. I think also, you know, Julian Canfield, who plays Jess, has been in almost every scene is with Kendall. She's an important person to Kendall, right? And so you set up this triumvirate earlier where it's like, you know, Rome is in the making camp and Shiv is with Jimenez, whether or not any of them actually believes in either of those things, those are their size. And then it was Ken, the fulcrum in the middle. And it's Ken's decision one way or another at the end of the day.

And I feel like the two sides of the scales for him in this episode are go back to that like Shiv and Tom conversation about like love or money, right? And so like they make the stakes personal bringing in Sophie, showing us Sophie this week to remind audiences this is, you know, not a white person. This is a young woman of color. Jess is a young woman of color. Like these are people who are going to be affected by a president like Mekin who uses words like clean and pure in his victory speech.

You know, that's like, it's so fucking tough. So to show us them without like hammering it, but show us like these are people close to Ken who are going to be personally affected by what happens here tonight. And he makes the decision to go money, to go power. Despite all of his protestations to Rava and to Sophie, I'm doing this for you, making the world safe for you. Right at the beginning of the episode, I'm not going to let anything happen to you, right? Like, I'm not going to let them touch you. But the end of the day, he makes this other

decision. And I think the last, because Chris Ryan and I were talking about that Jesse and why we thought it was there. And it goes back to the last word of the episode, right? Because he says, in the car, Ken, back in the car, like just how we met him at the beginning of episode one, to your point. Rava says he can't come see the kids. Rava's freaked out. And he says, to his driver, some people just can't cut a deal, Fekret. Fekret is the name of his driver, who has been his driver since episode one. So that's just like another person who is obviously going to be personally affected by the course of this election. Totally.

I thought the same thing. Calcified himself in another direction, you know. Yeah. I think the other thing about the Jess scene that I was thinking about was there was a moment. And this is not even like necessarily defined by my political point of view. But there was a moment for me and I think a moment for many, many people in that like three to five minute window where it started to seem clear that Donald Trump was going to win the election. where people were just like dumbfounded, where we were just like,

is this really happening? Because many people had just not allowed themselves to believe that it could happen. And it felt like that scene was almost like Greg and Jess not even having an opinion about what was happening, but just being like, is this really, are we doing this?

Because Greg, too, was sort of like confused and talking himself through what Tom had told him to do. I don't know if that's what Jesse Armstrong was thinking, but it reminded me of that sense. that I had, which is really powerful to be able to channel that so specifically, because it was a moment in time that, like, I personally will never forget. And to your point, Bill, about history, I was like, this is a historical moment in my life.

This is something I will probably tell my kids about when I'm older, about what it was like when we were going through this election, or COVID happened, or, you know, you have these moments that you mark time with. And that one just ranks rank so true when I was watching that sequence. I thought it was such a good choice to have a moment like that. That was like, the kids are not here. This is not about them. this is about the other people that are in this orbit.

Well, and particularly, like, how that will affect Greg so much differently than it will affect Jess, right? Because Greg will be fine. And Jess may not be. And I think also, to your point, Sean, like, again, that visceral, you know, I'll happily own that I was, like, the caricature of the white liberal who was, like, so shocked. And then they made a fucking S&L's great S&L. sketch about how naive it was for white people to be so shocked that Donald Trump could win, right? So like, I am, I don't know, obviously the Chappelle Chris Rock sketch.

Yeah, Chappelle, Chris Rocks. You know, I am that caricature, right? I'm Cecily Strong or whoever in that sketch. And that is part of whose Jesse Armstrong is firing at in this episode for sure, you know, for sure. Me. I remember that election in 2016, we had Favre on Vitor, the guys who became Potsave America, because I worked with the ringer that year.

And we were doing a live show. And I had done my HBO show. I think it was the last HBO show, too. Went back and we were doing the live show. And there was this moment when their body language shifted and they were figuring out what was happening. And there was like this five-minute window where they were like, wow, if this, I forget what the one thing was.

If this happens, he's going to win the presidency. And they all kind of like the life just went out of their bodies. And they were like, oh my God. this is actually going to happen, which was basically that Jess Greg scene in a nutshell. You have so we start this episode. We have Tom, the pressure's on. This is his big night. He's basically trying to save his job, prove that he can run all this stuff.

We have Shiv, who's working Mattson and scheming. We have Roman, who's team Mencken. We have Connor, who for some reason is not dropped out of the election yet. And we have Kendall, the narcissist with the poisoned heart of gold, who kind of feels like he knows where this is going and he knows it's a bad thing, but he wants the power so bad that he can't see it clearly. We get quotes like, Nate to Shiv, pretty dark, Shiv, who's watching the watchman? It's like, ooh. We talk about Roman and Shiv argue about what constitutes kidnapping. Manken only wants to see Roman and not Kendall. And then now Kendall's like, well, wait a second,

Does he like Roman more than me? Minkin wants help for his narrative, whatever happens, win or lose. Just as a aside, Joanna, as Justin Kirk's number one fan, what did you think of Roman going to see him in the narrative in that whole scene? I thought it was phenomenal. Like the line, you may not be the president, but you're our president, you know, like tapping into that whole American, not my president sort of idea. Yeah.

I thought Justin Kirk was fantastic. in this episode. What I like about Justin Kirk, to Sean's point about, like, maybe the only good post-Trump political satire is, like, he's never been Trump. Like, they didn't give us a Trump figure that's not quite who he is. Until the final speech, some of his, like, he's always been way more articulate than Trump has been in speeches. But when he says stuff like another day and another time, the fight might have fallen in another fashion, the election is called, I find the responsibility awesome. The election has called for me by a known authority. When I say it like that doesn't sound so terrible, the way he said it, he almost slightly slurred it in a way that he hasn't before that just sounded trumpier to me than I've ever heard him sound before. But I like that he is the danger of a more fascistic representation of that in this sort of sleek, younger, powerful model, which is even scarier. Yeah, he's like a 40-something handsome guy. and probably from the middle of the country and I thought it was notable like it was a little bit more like satanic

you know it was like this is when the devil comes he's going to look like Justin Kirk you know it wasn't something he wasn't a celebrity I thought one other interesting thing that I hadn't really put together maybe they had made this clear before I don't know did you guys know that this was only like a six month window where the president decided not to run for re-election

and so I mean six months that's a really short race for someone like him to emerge I mean that's like a a real flash for a political candidate to become the president of the United States after like a relative obscurity too. So that this would be in our, in our world, like, shocking for someone to come out of nowhere and win like this. And I think we probably have to consider that as part of the magnitude of the storytelling to where at the end, when they call it for him,

all the characters are sort of this sort of like, what have we done sort of state of mind. Well, and I think that that feeds so much even more into that idea of like what role can the media play in this? Because I was sort of Googling around a, I'm not. not a media or a political expert at all, but like, Googling around to be like, okay, how has the media put the thumb on the scale throughout history for something like this? This is like a relatively, relatively recent phenomenon, but like how has it manifested? And one of the studies I was reading was talking about just mere airtime and name recognition. So the fact that ATN, because Logan anointed Jared at that convention, right, the fact that ATN would be giving him so,

much air time. The fact that we know that the Mankin team was like sitting in on morning meetings like all this sort of stuff, they are in that narrow six month window even more responsible and they might have been in a quote unquote normal campaign for boosting his signal to the point that he could pull this off. I think is part of the point.

You know, Sean said all that stuff now, but he did text me after he watched episode eight and he's like, I thought Mankan made some good points. Yeah, good guy. You know, just can't we just once? I mean, what is the, the whole speech is the welfare queen stuff is crazy, you know,

but particularly when he goes brought forth by the great, the great sweetness of the virtue of the combined wisdom, the great people of this republic, don't we long sometimes for something clean once in this polluted land? That's what I hope to bring, not something grubby with compromise. It's a very, it's very Shakespearean, very poetic, very like, you know,

like I said, like Rome is burning. Like someone seizing power in the midst of a crisis. But who is the other person who seemed pretty eloquent in his own crazy way? It was Ravenhead. Ravenhead has that 90 second screaming monologue. And it was like, whoa, this is too realistic. Yes. That's the part that set my heart rate like through the roof is like I thought that

whole part was so incredible. I think that act, again, I don't know. I don't remember that actor's day. but that actor who's been in the background this whole time, like this is his guest star Emmy Real or whatever, the Tucker Carlson sneering, trollish, eloquent, but actually not based on any thing factual, set me off. Well, how about they went wide shot with it,

and you could just see the other two people kind of frozen watching him, like, oh my God. Yes. Am I part of this? What's happening? Yes. Yes. Yeah, it was great. And that's what said Shib up. Let's take a quick break and then we'll be back. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound terseptide may be able to help.

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Now through May 6th. Exclusion supplies to homedebo.com slash price match for details. So there's a bunch of different two people moments here. Like Greg telling Tom about his mats a night, they made me dance with an old man. I don't even know what that means. I drank drinks that weren't supposed to be drinks. What does that mean?

Like he drank, did he drink blood? like fluids urine maybe he drank mayo or olive oil you know maybe maybe something more simple simple umbrella

to put on top of that he gets later he gets Tom some Coke and Tom tells him Greg it's medically good for your brain pretends to coke Tom gets furious at him are you pretending

so they had they weaved in some good Greg and Tom stuff as usual what are you saying all as to is stupid, don't be a racist little bitch about it. Top dear. We had Tom and Shiv, and we didn't talk about this.

Shiv, speaking of things she screwed up in this episode, dropping this pregnancy currency out of nowhere at a really weird time. And I don't know. I just felt like she was flailing. I don't know what the upside was. Tom didn't even know how to react. She was asking him for an apology, basically. He didn't know how to apologize.

She started by apologizing first. She did apologize. She did. She apologizes first. And I don't, I could be wrong. And I won't disagree that Shiv is definitely jockeying for power in this episode. Like, I'm not going to say she's like a virtuous believer in democracy, though I do think she believes in a little bit more than Roman does, right?

But like, I know that there's power that is part of this for her. But I feel like in that conversation with Tom, just like when Ken goes to Shiv and he's being very genuine and honest. I feel like when she tells him that she's pregnant, I don't know that it's a move. I think she's just sort of like, well, I will say this, Tom is more impassive than he's ever been with her, right? He's stony face to her, and which is not something we've ever seen from Tom before, right? He crumbles really easily for Shiv. He's stony face. We can't blame him. That scorpion fight was awful, as we talked about last week. She's like, maybe this can get, get me back to the old Tom. This is something that he's.

wanted. Maybe this can get me. And I see it as like, I guess that's kind of a play, but like, I disagree because she said my father just died and Tom said you also sort of killed him. And that made him so mad, made her so mad, she kind of had nothing to come back with. And this was the last weird thing that she hadn't said to him yet. She's trying to cut his legs out or get some sort of power back in the dynamic. And this was kind of the last straw for her. No, I think that's right. I think that I think that there's definitely a cynical read on the setup of the situation. which is that it would be helpful for Shiv on this night to have Tom on her side. Now, why on all nights after probably the worst blood in the history of their relationship,

would she choose election night while she is spinning a lot of plates to pull Tom aside and confront him and say, I'm sorry, other than, and maybe she was sorry, and maybe she does want to make it right with Tom, but it's helpful to her. Yeah. It is. It was, I will just say, you know, so next, it's like our first opportunity. to talk to him since they had the fight, which was literally yesterday. I will say having a fight with him the night before the election and not understanding

how much pressure would be on him the next day is something that we can put at her feet. And I will say, her saying this here now reminds me so much of something she brought up last week, which is Tom proposing to her when Logan is in the hospital. It's just like, pick your moment on when to do these big things. And this is not the moment for you, you know? One other thing about that scene, one, Tom's high on cocaine. So he's naturally predisposed, I think, to be paranoid about anything that she's saying to him. Is that what cocaine, like shot?

Couldn't say for sure, but I've seen many Martin Scorsese films. And I think one little problem I had was if my wife was high on Coke, I think I'd be able to tell. That's just something I'm going to put out in the world. And they're not really engaged. Now, maybe they're not like actually looking at each other or engaging with each other. because they're both so spun out, and this is such a crazy night in their lives. But, you know, Tom just blew a massive rail

so that he could get through election night. Like, come on. She doesn't pick up on that. His response was that, is that even true? Or is that a new position or a tactic? Which is kind of an incredible response to your wife telling you, I'm pregnant. But he genuinely didn't know, like, what's,

he's so on the chessboard, he's like, what's this? Is this a new move? Did you just, you just, you just, you just used your bishop. What's going on? And he's not thinking like, wow, I'm going to be a dad.

Right. I do want to praise that performance. Obviously, we're always praising his performances, but there's the moment where he takes the news and there's like a softening of his face and a mild softening of his face.

And like, oh my God, is this happen? And then that Coke paranoia, yeah, like washes back over him and he's just like, is this a move? He's pretty, he's really, special. He's a really incredible actor. He really is. I agree.

The whole question of like, how does this all go differently if Tom decides not to do Coke? Tom, who's like not a guy who's been doing Coke, you know, in this series? That's not his thing. So like, if Tom hadn't done it, where would we be as a nation? I don't know. If Sid were still here, where would we be as a nation, you know? We have Conner's election night, which was just a sidebar of Willa thinking anything can happen. Not anything, Willa. Connor's not going to win. Him saying Kentucky might be the key,

and then immediately the Kentucky results come in and he doesn't get anything. Then he decides he wants to maybe cut a deal with Mankin not understanding that the ballots have already happened. And they're talking about, is there Peru? He's thrown out different things, and eventually it leads to him giving a concession speech, which I felt like delivered the goods.

and was as insane as I was hoping for. But in general, if you're going to pick apart season four, I think Connor running for election, I don't know if they landed the plane on that one like they have with just about everything else this season. It was fine. It was fun. It was like a fun use of him.

But ultimately, like, I just felt like they didn't totally commit to the bit. We never got like, there were other things that felt like they could have done. We never saw him on like a CNN type show talking about like his platform or, you know, we never, we never saw him in a debate with other candidates. It was just kind of happening on the side. So I don't know. I'm kind of glad it's over, I guess is my point. I really like the concession speech a lot.

It was the most pure comedy moment of the episode, you know, like the revelation that he had not one but two running mates who were forced off the ticket because they didn't reveal certain things about their past was great. and just like the perfect definition of Conner's, you know, not being right for running for president of the United States. He has the really poor judgment. I thought that they could have just more materially made that part of that character's decision matter more in the show. Like there was a world where like Jimenez wins because Connor didn't do something and then that affects the outcome. And the fact that they didn't really use that. And the fact that we kind of didn't know that something like Kentucky was even on the board for Connor

I mean, we've only been hearing all season long that he's got 1% of the vote and maybe at maximum 5% of the vote. Anyone who's operating in that space has like no chance at winning a state ever. So that was a little hard to... It felt the most like broadly satirical, whereas everything else in the episode felt

almost like docudrama-ish or like we were watching the war room, you know, like a Penny Baker documentary or something or we were just like, this might have actually been what some of these conversations were like behind closed doors at news organizations that night whereas that stuff was like so joky

and you know his call to the con heads and you know the way he closed that speech so it was on a slightly different track I still liked it just because I think Alan Ruck is just so perfect for that part that he almost feels like he's in another show at times I felt like I felt like we needed that little like respite the little breathing room of like okay let's go to Connor

and it's just going to be like a little less serious sounds like you needed it I'm sorry it was very strong stressed out. But yeah, I mean, like, organize a little coup down in old Peru is like objectively a hilarious thing. And like to have the Willa thing, you know, Willa last week who sort of helps make the decision. And this week we see how far those morals go.

Because she's like, well, he's pretty right wing. But, you know, breakfast in Vienna. Like, you know, how easily that crumbles. It's depressing. We had a little Greg versus Shiv scene as Shiv realizes that Greg might have gotten some intel for Madsen. This is where I'm with all of you. Worst strategy, bad, chiv

move, terrible. Awful. Do you find me attractive, Gregory? Try to fuck me, I'll kill you. He does the, well, I like when Greg negotiates, this has happened a few times over the four seasons. Oh, silence is golden. Like, how golden?

It's a pretty good great, Bill. Thank you. Been working on it. She does the internal organ's threat, but it's clear like, oh, here's somebody you don't want to have information on you, Greg, who will sell it to the highest bidder at all times. Always.

That's laid out there. So we know like the Shiv Matts and things. So they did a good job of setting up, things are falling apart. Just so that we can all like agree that Shiv has done a terrible move and a scene together, a piece of harmony on this podcast. I will say that I was trying to, I was like, what could she have done better? Right? This is terrible.

Shiv, what should you have done? And so then it's like, I hate thinking of this, baby, but like WWLD, what would Logan do, right? And then you remember that scene where Logan coaxes Greg over to his side by like getting him a rum and Coke and like that whole thing. And he's just sort of sweetening. He's like, my read on Greg is that I got to turn the sweetener on. That's what I have to do. And it works. And Shiv turns, you know, the Shiv on.

And it does not work at all. So like, you know, we praised her a couple weeks. ago for being with Madsen and Mattson's like you're a lot like your dad that's great and we're like oh my god Shiv has her dad's people skills or whatever it's like not as not as well honed because Logan would have had the read of this better than she she did yeah tough one it seems like she's succeeded the most when she's basically got one-on-one time with somebody in a position of power and can do the conciliary thing but as soon as she's the one who has the power gets in a little trouble That's interesting.

We have election night. How did you feel about Portland and Milwaukee being two of the city choices, Sean? Two NBA cities. Yeah, two cities that have encountered some complicated strife between perceived Antifa versus perceived right-wing factions, you know? Yeah. So not a mistake there. And obviously, you know, Wisconsin Battleground State. Again, like that stuff felt, it didn't feel real to me, but it felt like really ripped from the headlines kind of stuff.

but I don't know if did the, did the bucks play that night? I'm not sure if they, did they protest in the locker room? Probably like the opening in the season. The 100K Milwaukee votes were lost. Roman claims they don't count. That's when Ravenhead dials it up, which I, you know, we talked about that speech a little bit already, but his whole thing of just immediately blaming the other side.

That felt like one of the most realistic moments of the show. How do we know the other side? He does all that. That's when Ken started to get that look, which he's had a few times in the four seasons, which is probably why he shouldn't have this job of instead of like, oh, this is happening. I got to move. He just kind of sinks into himself. He retreats, right?

He's like, oh, shit, I need an answer here and I just can't fundamentally come up with one. What happens is making basically he's going to destroy the gojo deal in exchange for ATN support and help on election night. And Romans brings it in action. We got to talk about Darwin, Joanna. They really gave Darwin a lot of PT in this episode, leading to him accidentally putting wasabi in his eyes and then washing out with a La Croy Lemon.

Darwin, did we have him in another episode? Or was this like our first time with him? I don't remember him. No, this is the great Adam Godley, a really great British actor that I like. And you can tell he's British because of his accent. accent work in this episode, but I was like, I can't believe they put Adam Godley in the same room with Matthew McFadden and like let their erratic American accents work off each other. Yeah.

The Brits making the ultimate American episode with a bunch of Brits is amazing. And this is, I mean, we should say in case people didn't hear, there's an interview with Alexander Starzgard that went on the pre-cap, a prestige episode that went up on Friday. And I asked him about the election and all this sort of stuff. and he had some interesting things to say about what Jesse thinks about American politics what he thinks about American politics, all of that so that you can listen to that on that episode. But bringing in Darwin,

decision desk Darwin, when his cornucke-ki-ki-ki's and like, I love, I love Adam Godley. You can currently see him on season three of The Great. So funny on The Great. So funny. He's so good on The Great.

He's played a chimp on the Umbrella Academy. He's in that iconic love action. musical sequence is like one of the teachers singing. Like I love this guy. And what I love what's funny, I don't think it's intentional, but a lot of people know him as Elliot Schwartz, sort of Walter White's old business partner, Breaking Bad. Jessica Hecht played, played his wife, Gretchen Schwartz. So both the Schwartz's have been on succession. So some nice Breaking Bad representation. But I think this is a great character to put in here because like when we're talking about moral fiber crumbling in the face of something. The moment I think is really interesting that I

rewatched a bunch of times is when they were like, you could go on air and explain it to the people. And I don't know if you would agree with me or not, but I feel like there was this almost like lure of being on camera, possibly for decision desk Darwin because they don't always put the decision desk, sorry, I can't say that word very well, desk people on air. So, and, you know, He's not one of these like blonde, beechy waves, ATN sort of anchor type people. You know, he's like an academic, but he's like, oh, I could go on and I could explain it to them. That lure, the way that they break him down in that scene, and then the way that Tom just waves it off later, Greg's like, should we, when are we doing that? And Tom's like, we're not.

You know, I thought that was a great character and a great element to add here. You know, shades of Nate Cohn, shades of Nate Silver, you know, the idea of like the quant, the person who understands the numbers specifically. And then, but it doesn't want to go too far and making predictions and that being a huge part of our election culture now. I mean, for those of us who follow it closely, like, we feel like we depend on these people to control things and to be honest about what we're going to get, what results we're going to get.

And obviously it also, like, Armstrong's view of that is very obvious, which he's like, these people don't matter. They're just there to make you feel better, even though there are people pulling the levers at all times. But I like, I like that moment where he's like, Well, we do know, when Romans, like, we can't know. And, like, we know this as, like, election watchers. We know that, like, Shiv and Darwin are probably right because mail-in ballots do usually

tend to go liberal. You know, like, Romans completely wrong. And they are completely right. But the end of the day, it's like, it's one of those things where, like, they did this on Veep, too, where these politically minded writers can sit there and think, what is it an unheard-of thing that could happen in an election that could push something? in a direction that we have to think about, how would humans react to this? So, like, we've never had something quite like this.

We've had hanging chads and all that sort of stuff. But, like, we've never had, you know, an election, a ballot-coting office being firebombed. I hope no one gets any ideas from this episode. But, like, what do we do then? You know, what happens? And the way in which that then gives even more power to the media and the narrative to push things in one direction or another. But I think it's important to have someone like Darwin in the room to be like, we do know. we know what we lost what was lost here you know when this turns into ken and shiv and roman

basically deciding okay what do we do and ken said maybe we revisit wisconsin i got to say there was a two-minute stretch there where and maybe it's just because i'm an optimistic person where i was like holy shit ken's going to fucking save the day he's going to do the right thing and he's going to throw away this sale and Jimenez who we haven't even talked about yet and he's going to do it. He's got this. And then within a couple of minutes, it's not happening.

It turns into what it turned into. The Jimenez, who, you know, Ken calls him in the beginning, and it's a super awkward call on both sides. And then we see him giving the speech, and Fisher Stevens is just heckling him. I really like the Jimenez character, how boring he was. We didn't really spend time with him. We don't know anything about him.

He's just kind of a zero, which it reminded me, for some reason, of Marco Rubio, who I felt like, even though it was different parties, but same kind of thing where it's just like,

man, there's nothing here with Homenes. We've had other candidates like that, too, where you're like, what's, is there any meat on this bone? Not really. But I thought they did a good job

of kind of dangling the boredom of him versus Mencken, who's this charismatic, basically fascist. Yeah. But you can kind of see how, you know,

I don't know, there was some good parallels, I felt. Yeah, I think that, like the decision to make him Latino very purposeful, you know, the decision to make him sort of like tall, handsome,

a little bland, you know, like kind of non-committal in a moment like that as a pure contrast to the... And fuckface Nate works for him. That was another one. Right. And like the wheeling and dealing

that Mencken is doing on election night too was so counter to the sort of like safe, legal approach that Jimenez was trying to take. You know, there was not, there was none of this conspiracy. I mean, they were, you know, Roman and Mencken participated in an active conspiracy to overthrow the leadership of the country. I mean, it's really the highest echelons of coup d'etat minus a military. So that is the kind of power that was being wielded.

And I think that the Jimenez thing is totally right. Like, and Kendall said ending that conversation with, you know, I'm here making sure it's fair as fuck when we see how the episode ends is, is fascinating as great. And that comes down to one of Romans line at the end of the end of the end of the episode. episode, which is like we made a really good night of television, right? That's what we did. And like that is, you know, when we think, again, they're, I don't, you know, they're not trying to do like a direct, direct, direct analog to Trump, but like, you know, having worked it very fair at the heart of Trump, like there is, there is this whole profitability aspect of Trump being in power for all these, you know, the clicks that come from outrage clicks that

come from Trump being in power and the like, you know. Like absolutely. Yeah, exactly. That poll. So like, I think that. I think it's so perfect to put a virtuous bland Democrat who we barely saw. We only saw in this episode. And like, true, we haven't seen Macon all season, but we met him already. Right. So we don't even get a chance to know who met him is. We have a feel for Mencken from, yeah, that one episode.

Yeah. Exactly. I know that character. Yeah. And it reminds me, well, like, one of the most chilling things that someone I admire has ever said is when Trump was first running and Tina Fey said, oh, well, he'll be good for comedy. and it was just like so

Tina Fey was a liberal I was just sort of like chilled to the bone but that's like you know making will be so much better for ATM business than Jimenez would be not just because of ideology

but because of his you know as I recall I feel like the phrase that Roman used in that episode when they were you know having that cattle call with all the Republican candidates I think he said he's box office

which was exactly how he thought about and how these guys think about obviously like what's good for the media business is what's good for our relationships. Who drives interest? That's something that matters to them. So Ken, who was on the fence this whole time, but then when he realized,

Shiv's trying to fuck him on the Madsen thing, and now it's like, here's Roman over here, and here's Shiv over here. He doesn't trust either of them, but if he goes this way, at least he has Waystar, and he says, fuck it. And he says to the room,

Shiv's fucking us, right, Shivie? And they go, and he just tells him, call it, call for making. Then they throw in a line for, For Joanna, really, the Pontchus pilot. Now I think of you, anytime I see Shakespeare in any movies or TV or anything in that kind of literary ilk, I always say, I think of, oh, Joanna would have enjoyed that. Pontius Pilot, I just know it was right in your warehouse. It was my brand.

And what you were saying earlier about Ken's a decision is a classic Hamlet sort of thing, paralyzed, unable to make a decision kind of thing. So, like, yeah, he's, Ken being, again, that fulcrum of these two. others. And like that conversation he has with Shiv where he's like, let me lay it all out on the table. These moments of connection that I like love to see, but like Shiv is not Shiv is playing him. And he's

trying to have an honest moment with her. And they have that like hug at the end, which is like a parody of their season two hug that was like such an important part of the show. And when she says, you're, yeah, you're a good guy, right? You're, oh, you try. You're a good dad. Right? And these are things Ken is like so thirsty

to hear. Am I a good guy? Am I a good dad? And she's like, sure. So when he finds out that she was playing him in that moment, right? He throws it back in her face. You're a good guy. Like, he is so angry because that is something he was so thirsty for someone to tell him. You're a good guy.

You won't let this happen. You're a good dad. Well, he's got nothing left, right? His dad's gone. His family, he screwed that up beyond repair. Like, you know, he's got no relationship with all of his kids anymore. the brother and sister, that combo was going to be maybe something, but that's falling apart. So it's like, all right, well, I guess I'll just be the evil slumlord or waystar, basically,

and that's what I'm going to do. Macon tells Roman, you and me, we're going to go far, which makes me think we only have two episodes left now, and we know the funeral episode is episode nine. Roman's going to give the big speech in episode nine. Yet again, I'm going to say this is like maybe the fifth or sixth or sixth. time, it just feels like things are going great for Roman. And anytime things are going great for Roman, that's usually when the cliff comes. So none of us have seen episode nine yet or know anything about it. But my guess is it's probably Roman fucking up at the speech would be my guess. Or

maybe putting all the pieces together and giving a great speech and just going full Mankin. And this is kind of who he is embracing the true, true dark side. I think there's a there's a version where he doesn't even give the speech. And I just, I have a hard time thinking that the show happens and Ken doesn't give the eulogy for Logan. Do you know what I mean? So I don't know what would happen to make that happen. But like, we're Roman supposed to.

But I, I don't know. We'll see. Again, we haven't seen that episode. But something I've been thinking about is the way in which these, as we, as we mentioned, these little seas that we've been planting all along for these characters are just like blowing up into these glorious like explosions. and so for like, this was the payoff of everything for Roman in this episode. Tom and Shiv's balcony fight is a payoff of like all the little fights that we've seen

having lead up. So like, what is lurking for Ken that is about? Like, what is it not, and I'm not talking about like the fact that he killed a guy or anything like that. I'm talking about like what inherent personal flaw or, you know, character trait or whatever is due to explode in either episode nine or. episode 10. I don't know the answer, but... Yeah, Romans got the dick picks with Jerry. Kendall killed a guy.

And Shiv is going to have to deal with PETA at some point because Mondale hasn't had a walk in two and a half years. And he's just sitting... Someone pointed out that... Someone pointed out that Mondale was in the cloak room during the party in last week's episode. How did you feel about that, Bill? Horamah, the Mondale thing is... Mondale's more infuriating to me than the Mecca character. I just can't put into treating Mondale like this. Take Mondale for a walk. He named Mondale.

Maybe Mondale should have ran for president. These people are going to have a kid now? I got to throw a, before we go, I got to throw a Reddit slash fan slash whatever conspiracy about Mattson that's out there, that he is making up, that everything has been basically a play, that he didn't really mail his blood to Ebba. the EBA thing, that's all of work. Like this is all like a like a W.W. And then the India thing, that's fake. Having Ebertel that all of this is planned to kind of unnerve the kids to either get a different deal on the price or all this stuff.

I don't know if I believe it, but I like the spirit behind it that this is bullshit. Joanna disagrees. I just, okay, I don't mean to sound too Greenwaldian in this moment, but like I don't think that's what the show. I don't think the show does long gestating conspiracies that like come back and hit us at the end of the episode. I was, I was thinking about this because yeah, this has been bubbling around ever since he said the thing to shiv in the first place about the blood. And I'm just like, I can't think of an example where there has been like a twist lurking for a long time with a character. On this show. On this show. These things usually happen on succession within an

episode. If someone's going to betray someone or if someone's lying, about something or whatever, it's going to come through and the audience doesn't know about it, it's going to come out in the same episode. And that's different from like, Shiv lying to everyone and we know about it. I just don't think that that's something the show has done before. There's not to say it can't do it in its final season,

but I would be quite surprised. What do you think, Sean? Well, I think we've seen now many times this season, Scars Guard's character, Mattson, be really impulsive and, you know, emotional in public settings. You know, having, you know, disagreement, publicly during the meetup with Kendall surrounded by his staff and their staff,

you know, tweeting the meme, the, you know, concentration camp meme, you know, like getting into the fight with Kendall at the party last episode. He's done a lot of things that signal that he is the kind of person who might mail his blood to a colleague, you know, that he, you know, that he is this kind of like train wreck operating inside of a very powerful world.

And so I like the idea of that conspiracy in general. And I do think that there are, in maybe less extreme fashion, instances where people operate this way. You know, or like, and sometimes in business, like, people do backstab each other by lying about setups for certain situations. But it doesn't really seem like that's what this show is about, ultimately. It seemed, and I think, I thought Madsen's appearances in this episode were so fascinating because Mattson, who is a crazy person who mails his blood to women to entice them, was watching Mencken's election and was like, this is crazy. That was his reaction to it. That's how severe we're meant to

believe this election is that even a person who is as whacked out as Mattson finds this set of circumstances wild. And I think that emotional reaction he was having didn't feel like a performance for Shiv. It felt like an honest reaction of what was transpiring in the country. So I think that that kind of popped that balloon a little bit, that conspiracy theory, though it is kind of an interesting one. And if it comes true, then that, was like a grand piece of storytelling by the writers, too. Listen, Conspiracy Bill just had to bring it up, but I don't think it's true. I don't think that, I agree with Joanne.

I don't think the show really swims in those waters. We haven't had any sort of, whoa, has always been carefully planned out usually in the same episode. I love meeting conspiracy bill, though, and I hope that he shows up for the rest of the season, because I'm a big fan of conspiracy bill. Conspiracy Bill is ready to talk. JFK is ready to talk about different airplay. planes that went down. Like, he's here.

UFOs. Yeah. Yeah. We always said like that if we ever did the conspiracy bill podcast, it would probably be the third or fourth biggest ringer podcast, but I would also probably, I'd be put in jail. It would be number one if you did conspiracy bill. The conspiracy bill files.

Maybe that's my last act. Yeah, that'll be my, that'll be the epilogue to my career. Just go full conspiracy bill. It'll be great. Every episode is only on YouTube and you have to be dressed like Robert Stack and Unsolve mysteries, but it'll be amazing. We get the soft focus. Yeah.

And the trench, the trench coat, you know? Yeah. The Fauci episode will be two parts. I'm just telling you now. So this is your least favorite part of the podcast when I ask you, who's going to be in charge at the end of episode 10? What's your bet this week, Joanna? Back out on Greg.

Sorry. I'm leaving you behind with the great theory. Yeah, there's not enough time now. It really, we needed more momentum in episode eight. I'm with you. I think it's, I mean, if it's anyone, it's Ken and it's a hollow victory. This was, oh, Sean, what do you got? Are you abstaining?

You don't even care what I think anymore because you know I'm just going to make a joke. Because your heart's not in it. Let the record show, Sean was nodding enthusiastically with what I just said. I just need the folks to know that. I think that it's tough because, of course, I agree with Joanna. I think the show has always been about Kendall. I think I said that last week. I think it's the thing, Chris Ryan has been saying this since the beginning of the season

because he read an interview with Jeremy Strong where he was like, this is Richard the third. And the story of Richard the third is. That's something, yeah, that's something we cut out of an earlier episode because we were afraid that it was too like spoilery. But yeah, we're in the end game now. You know, Richard the third, he just like burns everyone around him so that he can retain power and he's kind of like pouts alone in his castle.

And that's... It's Godfather too, too. Yes. It's a storytelling trope that feels like we're on that path, in part because of what you guys were saying, that we haven't yet had this Kendall moment where we see the dark prints truly emerge publicly. You know, we've been building towards this, and it does feel like that's where we're going. But I don't know. I mean, who knows?

Can I give you a prediction? Please. So he's threatened by Roman now. What does he have on Roman? He's got the Jerry photos, right? Time to, he could basically cut Roman's legs out with Jerry's help. He could promise Jerry, lure her back, promise her, whatever, like the right-hand woman roll to whatever he's trying to do with the Waystar.

and Shiv's going to basically flame out on her own anyway because nobody trusts her and she basically backed the wrong horse with Mattson so that's going sideways. And he's going to win and cut out the other siblings and that's that. And it's going to be the godfather too. This was after this episode, especially in the car, as he realizes, I got nothing. That was the first time I was like, I feel like this is how this show probably ends.

No one can make a deal for grit. Speaking of Jerry, can I just mention one other thing before we go, which is when Roman is being such a piece of shit to Shiv, right? And he's like, I think it's because you broke up with your boyfriend. Yeah. On the one hand, that is maybe an accurate way to talk about the end of a marriage. But on the other hand, isn't a lot of what Roman's doing this episode motivated by not only Logan dying, but Jerry, like, you know, closing the door on him last week's episode? Like if Jerry, Jerry and Roman don't bust up in last week's episode, do we get Roman in the mode that he's in in this episode? You know?

I definitely agree. I think he's talking about himself in that moment. And no Jerry at all this episode. And honestly, I didn't like being teased by the sight of Carl, but not a lot of Carl. Like, don't serve me Carl on my appetizer tray, but then I can't like, I go to grab Carl and there's nothing there. That's bullshit. I was closely reading facial expressions, though, during that sequence when Manken was giving his speech on there, Carl and Frank and Hugo are watching. And Frank seems a bit crestfallen.

He feels, he looks like a guy who's like, what have we done? Like, our country, this is really sad. And Carl is just like, huh, what do you know? His reaction is so funny. Do you feel like they told you that they had all kinds of LeCroix flavors in the fridge and then they only gave you lemon? Is that how you felt getting just like a... glimpse of Carl, but no actual Carl. It's bullshit.

Just give me two minutes of them watching the election because you get these three great actors all together. Like, give me something. I guess they probably cut. My guess is there's probably some scenes that get chapped out. To your Connor point earlier, there was an interview with the directors from last week's episode where they were talking about

in Vanity Fair. I think it was where they were talking about how there was a ton more Connor stuff in the party that was really funny that they cut. So, like, you know, in terms of like calibrating storylines for time. I think maybe the Connor stuff, because it does feel like the least essential, the first pancake Connor,

probably got hacked out of the season. Poor Connor. Poor Alan Ruck. This podcast was produced by Kai Grady. We only have two episodes left. We are pretty confident. We're going to be getting screeners of episode nine, which means that right after episode nine ends,

you can hear us talking about episode nine. on this feed. We're also going to have the pre-cap podcast. You're doing any more interviews, Joanna? Just Scars Guard? You're just bagging stars from the show? Anybody on the horizon? I believe we will have a director and executive producer, Mark Milaud, next week to talk about episode nine.

Oh, so they brought out the big, big, big guns for episode nine for the funeral episode. Okay. It's true. All right. Thanks, everybody. We will see you next week.