The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Succession’ Series Finale Recap

Episode Date: May 29, 2023

Bill and Sean are back to break down the ‘Succession’ series finale. They discuss how the final episode stuck the landing and stayed true to the show’s themes, what went into Shiv’s last-minute decision to back out, and Kendall’s fate. Along the way, they talk about Tom and Lukas Matsson’s new partnership and the emptiness that comes with the Waystar crown. They close by unpacking the emotional moment between the Roy siblings as they watch an old video of Logan and the intense boardroom vote before giving their concluding thoughts on the beloved HBO series. Hosts: Bill Simmons and Sean Fennessey Producer: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You may find this hard to believe, but 60 songs that explain the 90s. America's favorite poorly named music podcast is back. With 30 more songs than 120 songs total. I'm your host, Rob Harvilla, here to bring you more shrewd musical analysis, poignant nostalgic reveries, crude personal anecdotes, and rad special guests, all with even less restraint than usual. Join us once more on 60 Saws that Explain the 90s every Wednesday on Spotify. All right, we are taping this Sunday night, 7.30 p.m. Pacific time.

Joanna Robinson is not here because she's on vacation. We miss her, we miss her wisdom. I'm sure she would have had some great observations. Sean Fentany and I are going to try to do this alone. My name is Bill Simmons. The Prestige TV podcast is part of the Ringer podcast Network. We just watched the series finale of Succession. It was 90 minutes long. It was called With Open Eyes. Sean, there was a theory that somebody did on TikTok, a video about Tom Wamsgans, and how he had the same last name as Bill Wamsgans, a baseball player in the 1920s who had the only an assisted triple play.

And the theory was, why is this person's name Wamsgans? Could this be some sort of link? And even today, Rasillo texted me and said, if you go watch the pilot, Tom's the one who tags out the little kid in the beginning. We're going to find out when we have all the pieces about the show in Jesse Armstrong talks. Did they know this from the beginning? But the triple play was executed, Sean.

Tom is our new king. Kendall is in shambles. Roman's a broken man. And Shiv is now K. Corleone. Bill, we miss Joanna, but it is a big, big day on the old salami line here at the Prestige TV podcast. Incredible, incredible turn of events. Did Tom actually win the world? series by turning that unassisted triple play? Or did he just doom himself to a horrible fate,

a truly horrible fate? I think that's the beauty of the show is that ultimately it seemed like maybe someone won, but I don't think anybody won. So I'm looking forward to breaking it down with you. Oh, that's a good point. I didn't even think of that. This is what Tom always wanted, though, right? This is why he wanted to marry in the family. This is what he was seduced by. This is why, you know, he kissed Logan's ass to the point he was willing to prioritize Logan over his marriage. We saw him scrambling in the first couple episodes of this season. Carl had the great cut down speech of him, and it all somehow worked out.

It reminded me a survivor a little bit, where sometimes the guy who doesn't win all the challenges can somehow be on top. Tom, basically, he was in the right place, the right time, and you could feel Shiv just kind of turning on, dialing up just a little too much. And the reason ultimately all three siblings didn't get Waystar was because they all had these fatal flaws. That's really what happened. That is true.

Although, think about what it meant to get this top job now. Think about what it means for Tom to be the leader of Waystar. What does Mattson say to him? He says, I'm not looking for a partner. I'm looking for a frontman. We're going to cut close to the bone. It's going to get nasty. I need a pain sponge.

That doesn't sound like a cool job. I mean, now that is the job that you suggested to me when we were getting ready to launch the ringer. You wanted me to be the pain sponge, which I've been happy to do for years now. But it's a tough job. And so, you know, even though he did win, I think that the message that the writers are sending is clear

is like these people fought tooth and nail for years for the honor of taking over for Logan Roy. And the gift that they get is being a public punching bag with no real power. That seems to be what Tom's fate is going to be. Now also that means in theory, based on that final shot that we saw of he and Shiv, that they are together in a way. And how together they are. I don't know.

I'd love to know what you think about whether or not they mended their fence here with this final move that Shiv made on his behalf. You didn't love their emotional handhold as their hands were kind of coincidentally resting near each other? Sitting limply on top of one another, like two dead, two corpses. Not great. That was the big scene, the Mats and Tom scene, which we'll get into. I guess big picture, I probably should ask this at the top. I was so delighted that the Bill Wamsgan's theory actually played out. That's some 1926, relatively obscure baseball player who's known for just one thing,

second baseman, you know, was bounced around the 1920s that this guy is now in the limelight on TikTok and on YouTube. Kudos to that TikTok person who nailed that too. But did you like the show? Like rating 1 to 10, how much did you enjoy it? Now, usually just for the people listening, when we normally do prestige for succession, I watch it three times. I don't know. You probably watch it at least three times, right?

Occasionally three times, yeah. Yeah, either two or three, but I usually watch it the first time. I don't take notes. The second time I watch it and take notes. And then if there's stuff, I feel like I needed to iron out, I'll watch it the third time. This time we're just watching and blind, kind of frantically typing notes at the same time. I thought it was a really, really, really, really good season finale. I don't think it did anything to hurt the legacy of the show in any way.

And I think it probably cemented its place in whatever Pantheon you're going to have it in. Yeah, I think it didn't have the kind of like spine-tingling, truly ecstatic moment that maybe some people would look for in a finale of a show like this. And so in that way, like if I am doing one to ten, it's probably more like a nine. and it's a nine because it felt really honest and true to the show. It really felt like it delivered on its themes and very clearly dictated who each of these characters are ultimately by where Kendall landing, where Kendall landed, where Roman landing, where Roman landed, even where Frank and Carl landed, where they landed, you know,

all of those characters, it felt like was kind of a summation of the journey that we followed them on. I am still turning over in my mind the decision that they had Shiv make. and that's the one thing I'm I just need to see it again we just watched it I think as it was happening in real time I felt you know they say if you don't like

something you bump on it I bumped on it just a little bit I was like are we sure we want this to be the character because I already am anticipating people like hating her for making a move like that for taking Kendall down at his moment of glory but obviously it's much more complex than that and she's thinking about her end game and long term and being able to raise her family

while her husband takes over at Waste you know, that it was a move. She made a move. And whether or not it was a good move, I think you and I can debate. But I, the way it played out and the way that it was executed in the final 20 minutes,

I just kind of want to see it again and know how I ultimately feel. But in general, I thought that they, they nailed the ultimate message of this show, which is like, no one wins. There are no winners on this show. There's no winners in this world. Wanting to be at the head of something like this is,

it's a brutal thing. And, you know, at a certain point, Kendall communicates to his broad other like Kendall's like, Roman, you know, you may be well-adjusted, and I'm a business psycho. And I thought that was like a critical moment that summed up. Anybody who would want this is fucked up. And maybe Tom is fucked up, too. But I did, I liked it a lot.

I don't know if I thought it was like an ace final episode, though. I'm trying to think if I've ever watched a final episode and was just like 10 out of 10, amazing. I feel like this stuff, you're thrown in the oven. It's like, I don't know, it's like making meat sauce. Like my kind of meat sauce. I'm half Italian. You can eat the meat sauce in two hours, but that's not what you want to do. You want it to just cook all day and ferment.

You want the spices to get really in. I was at nine and a half on the first watch. And I actually did think it had this scene that I think I want to watch like seven more times. When the three of them just kind of all hell breaks loose in the conference room as they're yelling. And they can't even in this one huge moment where they're doing this vote for the future of the company, they can't even align on that. Not only that, they're all yelling at each other. You know, finally the murder gets brought up.

We've been talking to the podcast all year. Is that ever going to get brought up? That card gets played. Here's my defense of Shiv. And I'm with you. I think it's going to be pretty polarizing how people feel about that. Two things. One, it was the right move for her because she's getting all the money from the Gojo deal, right?

Her guy is going to be in charge. So she's going to be by proxy kind of advising the powerful man, which is like kind of the one skill we've seen her be good at in the last four years. No doubt. And more importantly, I think it just dawned on her. My brother's full of shit. I've known this my whole life. My dad knew it. Everyone knew it. He talks a big game. You can throw him out on stage and it can seem like he's somebody who should be in charge. But ultimately, I just think he's full of shit. I think he's going to do a bad job. And if we're going to kill this deal and all this money we have coming in and put this jackass in charge of the company, it's probably a loser long term.

I mean, the one thing with Shiv is she kind of knows which horses to bet on as the thing goes, right? She has a pretty good sense of like, even with Mencken, when she flipped a little on the Mencken thing, even though ideologically it wasn't her cup of tea. It was the right move. So I just feel like chest move wise, probably the right move. She gets all the money from Gojo and her husband's now in charge. And maybe she feels like she can affect that down the road.

I thought it was authentic. I think you're right. I think it obviously was the strongest move for her to make. I think if you having seen the conversation between Tom and Mattson, though, we know a couple of things. We know that Mattson obviously wants to sleep with Shiv. And that's one of the reasons why he feels uncomfortable putting her in the big chair. But that's a feeling that still exists. And that's now Tom's boss.

So, you know, Bill, if you said, I want to sleep with your wife, that would be really tough for me to go to work every day. That's an insane thing to hear from your boss. I won't do that, Sean. Thank you, Bill. I appreciate it. I think that also, it's very obvious to me that Tom and Shiv's marriage relationship is broken and probably irreparable. And the idea of now going for the next five, ten, ten, twenty years through the charade of love to raise their kid, to have millions of dollars.

It's like, it's a brutal declaration of how empty they are. You know, I mean, that they just, all that they care about is just winning this thing that doesn't matter. And while, you know, Shiv does get all that money that you're talking about, she wasn't going to be worrying about money regardless. I mean, we're just, we're just talking decimal points here in terms of how much money she actually would have had. If she would have kept the company, she would have retained hundreds of millions of dollars, if not more. So, you know, like, yes, it was the good strategic move and it was a great way to basically never speak to her brother ever again. and maybe I don't drive him to death. Like, you know, the way that the show ends

and the way that Kendall has been completely torn asunder and closing with him and that image of him is obviously purposeful. I mean, he's destroyed. He is like utterly ripped apart. And she can claim responsibility for that. Now, obviously, millions of things that he's done over his life are a factor, but her making that decision

makes her, I think, ultimately responsible for what happens, at least in the immediate future to Kendall. So that's another thing that'll be weighing on her. I don't think there's any doubt he would have done it to either her or Roman or both. Yeah, I agree. Godfather 2-ish for a split second there, Kendall walking toward the bench and going to sit down. And I was thinking, like, are they going to do the wide shot Godfather 2 style of just Kendall alone? But with Colin the Grim Reaper kind of hanging out behind him, I thought when he got in the elevator when he was, when he pressed the zero to go down, I thought he was going to go up.

and I thought he was going to jump. Because remember, especially in Safe Room, they planted all those seeds for, it started out with him on the roof. It ended with him on the roof looking through the grass. And in general, there was a lot of imagery of him in high buildings, him looking down, him,

you know, the threat of him jumping kind of hung over the first three seasons of the show. And I thought he was going to go up. But then he went down. I was like, oh, thank God. For some reason I want a Kendra to live. He's an awful person. I'm glad he lived too.

I mean, they did show him in front of water. And like throughout this show, water for him has either been like a sign of impending doom or a sign of renewal. You know, there's the time when he was faced down, you know, for his mother's wedding. And we thought that he had drowned and died. And then there's also earlier this season when he's, you know, dancing on the beach and drawing number one in the sand and feeling like he's on top of the world. And so I think if you want to interpret it, you could say at the end, maybe he's ready for a renewal. He's got all this money from this sale. Maybe he's launching his own company and starting something.

fresh or maybe he's doomed. Maybe he is, you know, stuck in a life that he can never really figure out. I don't know. It was, you know, he's a very tragic character. We talked about it over and over and over again. Once again, I thought Jeremy Strong was just remarkable. I mean, he is such an astounding actor. And I think you're right in what you've said before where it's going to be really hard

for him to do anything else because of how deep and meaningful this character is. But I, where do you think he goes? Like, is Kendall, will Kendall ever be back? or is this the end for him? Well, Jesse Armstrong's been pretty queer that we're never going to know. It'll just be like in whatever our head is for all these characters.

In your gut, does he buy Pierce and go make something new? Well, he gets what, X billion dollars, whatever his share was from this Gojo sale. So he's going to try to start his own company and a competitor and it's going to be like, and he'll have some sort of Kendall way of describing it. It's going to be like a little 2,000, blah, blah, crossed with, you know, he'll do his hybrid thing.

And he'll probably get some of the failed people who got kicked to the curb to kind of join him. Maybe Jess comes back. He called his new assistant, new Jess, which I thought was just a stomach punch for old Jess. But yeah, I'm sure he regroups and does some sort of terrible thing. The one that I don't think is ever coming back is Roman. He was just by the end of this, just a broken man. They just have him. The martini, what was the symbol of that?

you because the last site we see a Roman is just sitting in a bar broken having a martini. Wasn't that his dad's drink or am I crazy? That sounds right. I mean, I think a bit of drink the pain away. I think a bit of solitude, you know, sitting alone at a bar is can be freeing or it can be depressing. And I think, I don't know, I thought they really frayed out him pretty hard in this episode. Yeah, the last two.

Yeah, I mean, the last episode, he has this emotional breakdown and I thought he made a good case for himself, you know, that when he was sort of like, oh, I cried at my dad's funeral. Who cares? Like, that's what everyone does. So I thought that he mounted a defense for that. In this episode, you know, getting the shoulder hug from his brother, busting his stitches open,

literally bleeding, open wound in the middle of this meeting. And then, you know, ultimately aiding Shiv and breaking it all apart, you know? I mean, he probably could have fought back a little bit harder there. And he obviously, I guess he ultimately

agreed with Shiv or saw that this was the way and I agree with you, it feels like he was just checking out and that feels like the first drink in a stringless life of many. But I don't know. I mean, I don't, I could have I felt, I needed a little more I felt like.

I needed like a little bit more understanding beyond him just saying like we're bullshit. You know, that was, that felt a little too neat to me. And it didn't, it didn't feel like something that he I don't know. I'm not sure if that's something he would do. If he would have that level of self-awareness to let go.

But maybe he would. So they have, Shiv runs off when the vote six to six. Ken makes the worst case ever why they shouldn't do the deal. It's a bad deal as we know and they do the vote. And yes was Frank,

Sonia, Diane, Sandy and Dad. I think somebody had two votes in there. And then the nose were Ken, Ewan, some old guy, I can't remember his name, Stewie and Roman. And then Dewey was the old guy.

Doey. So somehow it was 6'6. Shib freezes runs off, which seemed pretty strange at the time. And then, so it all comes to head, and she just says, I don't think you'd be good at it. And Ken says, if I don't get to do this, I'd die. And that's when Shiv drops out, you can't do this, you killed someone. How did you feel about this just never coming up all season and then finally coming up at this moment? that was and we've talked about that moment and that skeleton just lingering this whole time but why now why do why bring this up now why not bring this up at mom's house when they're all hanging out outside on the beach well i noticed a critical cutaway to shiv when they were sitting around the board and the votes were getting ready to start right before they started they cut away

to her and you can see sarah snook starting to kind of well up or crack she has a like a look of indecision on her face and she's unclear what to do. And as soon as that happened, I was like, oh, I feel like she's, okay, she's going to blow this up. How is she going to blow this up? And so I don't know if that was her scheming or having some sort of like, you know, moral panic or maybe a combination of the two.

Maybe it felt like it was both of those things. And so it's hard to know how calculated her raising, killing, you know, Kendall killing the kid actually was and how emotional of a reaction it was. Like, was it part of some plan? Because one hour earlier, she was arming the battle stations and charging into the office to take revenge on her erstwhile husband. Maybe she just was the best thing to come up with.

Yeah, that's what I mean. Because she needed some sort of excuse. And now that was kind of what she pulled out for backpocket. I think that's what it was. It felt like an impulsive decision to be like, this is as strong a move as I can make. And it actually worked because it completely, it turned Roman against Kendall. Because Kendall denying it ultimately denied him the opportunity, I think, to get that job. And as soon, that's really when Roman.

is like, wait, what? So you didn't do it? So you lied to us in that incredibly tender moment where we tried to take care of you and you're not real to us. And so now I can't back you either. So I guess in that way, like her move worked. I guess, you know, we'll never know.

It's really hard to say whether or not she had that as part of some plan over a time. But, you know, it's interesting because we've been very critical of Shiv and the choices that she's made over the last three or four episodes. And she's kind of blundered her way through the second half of this season.

So it's hard to give her credit for a masterstroke, but it did work. I mean, a completely unhinged Kendall, and that ultimately led to just closing the vote and walking out the door and her husband taking over. She also said, I love you and I can't stomach you. That's tough. Brutal. The only thing he could come back with was, I'm the oldest boy. Okay.

And she says you're not. Right. And then Roman, I couldn't, Roman said something about his two kids. Do you want me to recite it? Yeah. What did Roman say exactly? I didn't write that one down because my head was spinning

at this point. He said, she's the bloodline though. Dad's line was yours weren't real. There are a pair of randos. One is a buy-in. One is half Rava,

half a filing cabinet. Something along those lines. That's as much as I could get down. What does that mean? It means that he, like, Shiv's son or daughter is ultimately

will take over the line, the Roy line because his kids are adopted. Kendall's kids are... Both of the kids are adopted. Or one is adopted. adopted and one is, you know, Rava had in vitro. So neither of them are,

neither of them are formally Kendall's or biologically candles, I should say. I don't know, but obviously like both of his kids are not white. So or maybe biracial. And so I think because of that, we can infer. Yeah, that was new information. But I'll tell you this, Kendall, uh, Kendall didn't like that one. And he just, I, at some, at one point it looked like he was going to try to rip Roman's, uh, stitches open or open even more.

Yeah, he went right for the throat and attacked him. And I mean, of course. What Romans said is fucking insane. I mean, these people are demonic. Like, they're insane to each other. I mean, siblings say nasty stuff to each other, but not like that. That's awful. Well, so that's why I felt like Shiv turning on him was authentic.

Because even at the beginning of this episode, when they're at the mom's place, and she's basically taunting him, I won, I got the votes. You can't handle that I won. And, you know, this was what it was all about with these three of like they just could never link up together because all of them had this weird competitive thing with each other and they wanted the other thing so bad. They wanted to be the same. It just like basically broke all of them apart. I guess Shiv basically got the closest to it because now Tom has it. Yeah, but because of what you just said is why I'm a little iffy on the Shiv outcome because

I think that they're, I think that they're guiding you to to the takeaway that Shiv quote unquote won but didn't really win anything. Like she won a loveless marriage. Didn't seem like she won in the limo. She didn't seem like that was not a victory ride. All right, let's go backwards. There was a lot to cover. I guess the big plots. We had seven big plots in this one in order. Shib versus Kendall initially

to get the shareholders. Roman disappearing to mom's house. Where was that house, by the way? I missed one there where they said it was. I don't know. The Caribbean? I wrote down Hawaii, Bahamas. Who knows?

It was super fast to get there. I'll tell you that much. They went from New York to wherever that was. in a couple hours. Must have been the Caribbean then, right? Yeah, probably something like that. So we had that, we had that. We have Shiv and Ken lobbying Roman. We have Mattson and Tom, this developing thing out of nowhere.

We have Greg getting involved and then eventually playing the wrong hand. We have Kendall swinging the sibling boat toward his way and seemed like it was good. And then we have Shiv switching boats. And Tom is our new king. And Mattson is our new owner of Waystar. So just going backwards from the beginning. We have the deal's imminent. Ken's in frantic Ken mode.

Shiv says Roman might not even show up from whatever jerked dungeon is being pity spanked in. And then Mattson's working Shiv about Tom. And she says, Tom will honestly suck the biggest dick in the room. Like she won't fully condone him and she won't neg him either. I thought what he said was really interesting. So Mattson says the delta between a guy and a 10x guy is life and death. And is Tom a 10x guy or is he a guy who can be manipulated? Or was that just to throw Shiv off the scent of the fact that he doesn't believe Tom is strong enough

when in fact Mattson is conniving to just choose Tom? I don't know the answer. Yeah. A lot of unanswered questions. Also, Mattson, are we sure he's good? I'm not so sure. Well, we know Tom's not good. just spent four seasons with them.

That's what I'm saying. Chus is Tom? Was that the move? What a combo. The Shiv just is so jumpy and desperate that I wrote down not knowing what the outcome was going to be with Mattson. Shiv seems jumpy and desperate.

And she even said like the Lady Macbeth two line. But there was some sort of energy with Madsen that you could tell this is going the wrong way. Mattson wants somebody like Tom. He wants somebody who can be the bad who can do his dirty work, who will just listen to him

and not be too intrusive. And obviously, because he laid out all the groundwork with Eba, doesn't trust himself to be around any decent-looking female that he's working with.

So it's actually like probably a smart move for Mattson not to want to have Shiv as the CEO. Yeah, I thought his reasoning was sound there that he just almost doesn't trust himself in a way.

And also she's, you know, least he knows he's a fucking scumbag who can't be trusted. But shit, so this is what Shiv is working. working with. Earlier in this episode, this is actually really critical in the aftermath of it. Tom says to her, we should check a Slovakia, make it all lovely velvet parting of the ways. And then Shiv starts exploring whether they can stay together. And, you know, he's saying you've fallen in

love with our scheduling possibilities. You don't like to fail a test. Do you, Chavon? And then she says, you know, are you interested in a real relationship? And he says, I don't know. Honest to God, I don't know. So this is 12 hours earlier. And now they're together forever and she's going to manipulate him as the leader of Waystar Royco. I mean, it's so flimsy. Pretty rough. Ken went to find Roman. She was already there.

Poor Roman was beating up. The mom had this weird monologue about eyes and calling them face eggs. I don't know what was going on there. I thought that was amazing. The mom was on one in this episode. All these blobs of jelly rolling around in your head. That was elite. And then we cut back to Tom and Greg who were trying to hang with bats or trying to hang

with bats and Tom. and Tom's telling Greg you're fucked, which explains why Greg did what he did. The highest paid assistant in human history, yeah. Yeah. And then we go back to Kendall and Shiv with Romans zoned out. Kendall calls her the Joan of Waystar. And then she says,

I don't know why I'm the cunt here. Fuck off, I won. I played it better. So why don't you just take it like a man and eat it? Kind of a weird thing to say to your brother. But then we go to the key scene, Madsen and Tom, what was your expectations as we headed into the,

Mattson and Tom scene. Do you think Tom was getting fired? Like what? I got to say the direction and when I would surprise me. I was surprised. I mean, maybe that's a testimony to how good the storytelling was. I definitely did not have Tom tabbed as the CEO of Waystar Royco at the end of the season. Literally two episodes ago, Tom was doing lines on election night and throwing the election to a false victor presumably based on what we learned about Mencken. So this is like not a good candidate to be the CEO.

this is a fucking idiot. He's a hilarious character and a wonderful actor in Matthew McFaddy. But like he's a joke. So I definitely wasn't expecting him to get primed for the pump by Madsen. I really like the segment. I do think that Alexander Scarsgaard kind of like took over the show a little bit this season. And I think that's an interesting choice. Like I was thinking about what, you know, Joe House conveyed to you a few weeks ago

about how the show kind of lost its center of gravity without Logan. And Madsen kind of filled the center of gravity. Like a lot of things just could not have happened on this show without him in these last few episodes. And none more than this meeting, I think was like the kind of the critical conversation between the two of them. But I thought it was pretty funny just that he was like, I, you know, I'm clickety, clickety with your wife. Like I want to have sex with your wife. Yeah, what's, let's have into this. Tom's basically like, he's talking about how he's bragging about it, cutting heads and harvesting eyeballs.

That's what he does, right? red beet boiling tar mentions how he has a high tolerance for pain and discomfort. So he's basically like, I'm your hired hitman. I don't even really fully realize if Tom fully realized

how attractive this probably was to Madsen is he saying this. And then Mattson says, he's into Shiv a little, she thinks she thinks, she thinks. And he says, I got plenty of ideas. I don't need more ideas. I know everything. And then he goes,

he does the thing you mentioned, and then says, to fuck her a little bit. Or the right circumstances, she'd fuck me too. Saying that to her husband. And Tom is such a fucking desperate to, you know, get any sort of power.

He just sits there and takes it. Doesn't get mad at all. Doesn't get challenged. Doesn't like, wait, what? He's just playing it because he's like, wait,

this guy's confiding in me. This is good for me. He's just seeing the chess match of it and not the, this guy wants to fuck my wife, which is why Tom is a sociopath. I just want to say, I do relate to

One of the things that Tom said to Mattson, when he said, I'm a grinder. I grind because I worry. I worry all night about everything. And I have an excess of vigilance and a high tolerance for pain and physical discomfort. That is my management bearing as well. Like, that is how I think about the world every day. So, Tom are aligned family.

I'm well suited to see our way star Royco. I mean, it was an interesting choice. I think if Mattson is as smart as he thinks he is, then he has chosen someone that he can easily manipulate because he will get off on the idea of being in power, Tom, but doesn't actually care about anything. Like, he was happy to be in charge of ATN, even though he has really no political ideology whatsoever. He's just, he is as Shiv called him, an empty suit. And so because of that, he's a good fit. What he got in the, he got in the boardroom at the end, right? The respect

and the deference. And then him walking through all the people and just the way they're looking at him. And then he gets into his limo with his wife. And he's like, the man. That's what he wanted. That's it. He didn't care how he got there. He didn't really care what his ideology. you was. So Mattson says to him, why don't I get the guy who put the baby inside her instead of the baby lady? Incredible. Too late to use for a high school senior year book quote this year, but maybe in 2024 for the juniors now looking ahead. How do you think my wife would feel about being called the baby lady? Should I start calling Eileen the baby lady? I don't think she would like that. I'm just calling my wife the baby lady from that. He said,

Makin likes you. You're fucking talented. I'm not looking for a partner. I'm looking for a front man, I need a pain sponge. Tom's like, I'm in. Music to my ears, buddy. So you want to fuck my wife and you need a pain sponge. This sounds great. Side me up. Do I get a corporate, new corporate card?

Like a black card? What do I get? They literally close the conversation by saying, let's do shots. That's how they end it. It's amazing. So he tells Greg would be okay, but then they're doing shots. And Greg pulls out his Swedish translator,

which I know you were just in Sweden. Do you have the phone out with the translator? Yeah, through all the big talks from all of our core leadership. I just was translating everything. Pull it out. Yep, I texted you everything that was said in Swedish. You've got it all now, Bill. So it seems like he heard some of it, but not all of it. He only knew the Shiv is out at CEO part, but they didn't say that Tom was probably in because I think at that point he probably would have swung his allegiance toward Tom, but it's, we didn't talk about the outcome for Greg in this show. Like we always, my Greg theory went up and smoked, but. It does.

It actually was pretty funny how it worked out when you look in the pilot where they laid all this groundwork for Greg and the pilot, this guy's scrapping his way up and all he's been doing this whole time, making deals, swinging wherever the momentum was. Information trading. That was his thing. Information trading, ingratiating into whatever group he needed to ingratiated into. And just like the classic scumbag who kind of always seems to move up. And you're like, oh, that guy, really? then it finally backfires on him in the end and even gets called Judas by Mattson at the end. And he had that like rice, that laugh he had at the end where it's just like, they all figured to me out.

Fuck. Yeah, it may not really hurt him in the long run, but I did think it was interesting that Tom was savvy enough to not reveal anything that Mattson had said to him other than just to say, we're going to be okay. You know, that that was the indication of like, Tom is a man and Greg is still a boy.

You know, Tom knows if he's got something lined up, for him that's really sweet. He knows when to execute on his plan, whereas Greg is bursting out of his skin to call Kendall to try to level up. And also, like, what leverage did Greg have for Kendall at that, over Kendall at that point? Like, Kendall could have just taken that information

and walked away with it and done whatever he wanted with it. He would, we wouldn't have owed Greg anything. So even that was just a bizarre move. Like, his desperation to always be doing what you just said, kind of getting on the right side of things. You know, it landed him in a position where he's not respected, but like honestly, will Greg still just make a lot of money

and be in that business for a long time? Probably, because that's kind of the way the world works, right? Well, Tom probably just looks at him as like, I know what I have with this guy. He'll do whatever. And maybe if I put him in a little cage, he'll be my guy. He'll be afraid.

I know exactly who he is. He did ask Kendall if they could quad it up. Like a full quad. Was what he was thinking. The full quad possible. I don't understand. How does Connor figure into the full quad? It's Connor, as usual, just gets overlooked. As all of this was happening, first of all, I was very upset.

We didn't get a shot, like just a minute of Oscar, like ordering shots and just insulting somebody and doing some. Oscar criminally underused, him and Mondale, the underused characters of the year. But we cut back to as all this is happening with the three kids and the mom, and she brings in Peter, Daddy's here, and he's got some guy Jonathan, who's been in a rough way, but now he's okay, and he's got some business pitch. Did you follow what the business pitch was?

All I know is there's creamy margins on this deal, so they really got to consider it. No, I thought it was, they really paid off the Peter Munion situation, which is that he's just a fucking scam artist, and he married Caroline just to get closer to the money, and now he's making his move. And it was a poor move at a terrible time. The day before the big board meeting to decide. the fate of the company, he's trying to get their money. What a moron. And he was furious

when the kids were living. He was like, fuck. What a waste of time, he said. So Ken gets the info from Greg, and then a mystery caller who I assume, who was the mystery caller you think? Was that Hugo? I guess so. I couldn't figure that out. I mean, I guess that

he was the one who looked into having her name removed from the announcement deal, and obviously he's in the PR. So I assume that that's who it was, but they never really clarify. So they, he finally convinced his Shiv, she's not getting it, and

they have, they call our guy Tell Us, who's had a couple great phone cameos this season. Mentioned how they, Roman and Kendall are called the Incredible Fuck Brother Banwagon, which was news to them. And then Kendall does he, I think it would be me. And Roman says, well, Dad said it would be me.

And Shiv asked if he also confessed to being the Zodiac killer. Ken tells the story about he was promised when he was seven. and then he says to Roman, now they're actually talking to each other. And he says to Roman at the funeral, you didn't even want it. Maybe you're well adjusted, and I'm a business psycho. And then he says, obviously I want it to be being if we want to hold on to this company.

It's me. Now, he's not wrong, but the question is, why would they want to hold on to this company? And it's actually not him. He's just the best of three shitty choices. It reminded me of the Jets QB situation last year when it was Zach Wilson, Mike White, and who was the third guy, the guy who could only do run plays?

Chris Treveller? Yeah. So if Mike White's like, it's me, it's got to be me. He's not wrong, but he's also Mike White, and you're not going to the playoffs with Mike White. And I think that was,

Kendall is Mike White in this situation, is my point. This is the third consecutive Jets quarterback reference you've made on three straight pause. Chad, keep a street code. This is an HR violation. and we have Aaron Rogers now, so you need to fall back. Good point.

You have Tom Womskin, aka Aaron Rogers. Let's talk about this a little bit because this is an important segment of the episode because one, obviously, I think the story that Kendall tells is, again, like another original wound. You know, we learned about Logan's original wound when he was a little boy with being blamed for his sister's death from the polio that he brought home. This feels like Kendall's original wound when I was seven years old. dad told me this is who I was going to be, and I've been trying my entire life to live up to what he

told me I was going to be, and he can't let go of it. No matter what happens, he can't let go of it. So that was critical. And then also his siblings looking at him in this moment where he is once again just pitching, pitching, pitching, pitching himself harder than anything with no self-awareness, but also all the self-awareness. He literally says, it's a horrible job that clearly kills you. And still he wants it. He's still, he's pushing himself forward for it. But then there's a cut before we really see what Shiv and Roman have kind of agreed to

before they dive into the water when he's at you know they have this conversation and it seems like they kind of agree to give it to him but then it feels like there's something unreveiled murdering him too they too joke about murdering him and he's out on the jetty laying on his

back all by himself if you're in the middle of a moment like that how could you leave your siblings alone wouldn't you just want to be as close to them as possible the whole time not let them conspire against you. But I, you know, I don't know if there's, I don't know if this is a conspiracy theory or if we're supposed to presume that they talked through other possibilities here. But is it possible that in that moment, Shiv and Roman devised a plan to, to blow this up? I honestly don't know. My biggest disappointment in this whole episode was they start doing Kendall impersonations.

And I didn't think they were very good, to be honest. I thought, especially Kieran Culkin, I thought just would have absolutely crushed a Kendall Roy impersonation. Shib's was just bad. It wasn't great. Romans was like a C plus, but I think they could have like, if they had really put thought into that one, I think his Kendall would, it should have been incredible. Disappointing. My theory on that moment is that that's something that all the cast members do behind Jeremy Strong's back all the time. And the writers knew that and they just wrote it in. It's like what Dana Carvey was doing the Lord Michael's impersonation all the time.

And it turned into Dr. Evil. Exactly. Yeah, I'm sure you're right. They didn't want Jeremy Strong to know how good. their Jeremy Stronger person issue was doing your deep voice and you just murdered me. So they swim over

and Roman says it's haunted and cursed and nothing will ever go right but there's your bobble. And then we see Happy Ken they're making fun of him. He's smiling. They go in the kitchen and make some gross blender food. They eat Peter's cheese, Roman licks the cheese. I like they've had a couple times during the course of the show where the three

siblings are hanging out, having fun, making fun. and each other. They were like, oh, yeah, these three are related. I remember there was that boat scene in the last episode of season 10 when they're just hanging out in the deck, just firing jokes at each other. The show does a good job of being like, oh, by the way, these kids all grew up together. Yeah, I just wrote down when this was happening a little party for the family before the war, you know, and you knew the things were going to go really sideways after this.

And this was our last little respite, our opportunity to, like, remember them as siblings, as people who love each other, you know, who have, you know, a meal fit for a king is clearly something that they've done before that is part of some tradition that we're getting a little bit of a peek into. And it was sweet. It was funny. It was cute. I mean, like, I have three siblings. We torture each other. You know, this is like something that you do. You give each other shit. And it's funny. But I don't own a business with my siblings that is also destroying America from the inside out. So they have a little bit more going on. Well, we had two more good scenes here. We had the, they go to Conner's house. They're divving up Logan's stuff with stickers, even though he's

already giving himself the medals. Willa wants to get rid of everything. We find out they're going to have a cross-country relationship. That'll go great. I think it's a cross-national, cross-international really? Because he's going to be in Slovakia or Slovenia or wherever he's going to be. Roman says they have the second week itch. And you think it's...

By the way, Connor just not in enough scenes this year, but his batting average was... He's basically the Caleb Barton of the show. He's just placed 25 minutes. hits four threes, plays great defense. Was that a reverse jinx for game seven, Bill? What are we doing? It was. It was.

I'm trying my best. But all of a sudden, he's like, yeah, I popped on this virtual dinner video and this really incredible scene comes out of nowhere. That was one of the, I think, unexpected best scenes in at least this season, but maybe even the history of the show. I got to watch this episode a few more times. But we get Logan back again. And the show, the way they brought him back, right?

they had that one at the very beginning when he's doing like the the Waystar during the Living Plus episode. He's at the beginning of that. And then just in the mausoleum where we don't even see him, but his shadow is there. So you're thinking that. And then this, like it's actually

like the most likable, I think Logan's ever been. It seemed like they're having a fun dinner. They were making jokes. They're drinking. There was like repartee. It was very unusual. I loved this moment. I thought it was a little bit inauthentic that they just so happened. to have a quote-unquote virtual dinner with dad.

You know, it was a little bit stretched to the imagination. But what they showed us, I loved. I thought was amazing. One, just great to see Brian Cox one more time in the show. Great to see the person who is charming enough and smart enough to become a Logan Roy. You know, doing the reverse electoral losers in the presidential history as a kind of like sing-songy story that all the kids remember because it's something he's been doing for years and years was tremendous. and then a dirty limerick from Jerry,

and then Carl, the big homie Carl, singing Green Grow the Rush is absolutely like an angel. That was fantastic. I loved it. I think Carl won whatever the supporting out of nowhere character of the year award. I don't even know what the awards called, but out of all the fringe characters,

I thought Carl wins. He had so many phenomenal small moments this season. He had the moment with Tom where he ripped Tom, soul out. That was iconic. And then he had the moment with Kendall where he says, you know, I've got your dick in my hand and you've got mine and yours. And then he also

has a little moment at the end of this episode that I thought was really funny to that I'm sure we'll get to. But I just David Rashy's singing. Who knew? Great voice. And they cut and Roman starts breaking down as he's watching it. Kendall's crying. It was just a really good scene. And Connor did a funny Logan Roy impression in the video. I really like that scene.

So then now we're getting serious. Tom talks to Shiv, plays dumb. He's two over the top with playing dumb, finally realizes she's seen through him and just says, Shiv, you should probably know it's me. And once again, she's been kicked in the gonads and gets mad and says, good luck, because we have the numbers, good fucking luck, and storms off.

So now we're off. Greg and Tom have an almost fight in the bathroom. Notable that Greg fought back, because we've seen Tom attack Greg before, and he always takes it. This time he actually, like, was dishing it back. So good job by him. He was like Riddick Bo.

He had the reach, you know? He had the height. It was impressive. He stood his ground. I got to be honest, that scene could have gone like 10 more seconds. I really was like, are they going to make out?

Like, is the climax between these two finally going to happen? They're so mad that they're going to kiss, but they didn't happen. Oh, like a wet, wet hot American summer just out of nowhere. These characters start making out. And then Madsen's getting his whole thing.

The boardroom, which I just, I remember I looked at the clock at this point. It was like 7.13 Pacific time. So I knew there was like 15 minutes left. I was like, oh, my God, this is like sports. We're in the fourth quarter now. What's going to happen?

I love so many good things. Carolina tells Shiv how excited she is to change the culture and the backstabbing. And then she goes, but we're going to get rid of Hugo, right? She's just doing her thing. Frank ran out. Hugo said, big, big day on the old salami line, which you mentioned earlier. Stewie showed up and said, I like weird sex, I like bad drugs, I'm a screwed up individual. Just shades of our guy?

Yeah, it's a little Floyd gondoli, right? A little wiff. A little whiff of Floyd gondoli. I really enjoyed what Kendall said back to him, though. He said, bullshit, you like pancakes and waffles, you kiss guys on Molly. You're not hard at darkness. You're grilled cheese with a suck dick. Oh, my God.

That was like, you know, you know, I mean, we obviously have friends like this, but when you have friends that you have rhythm with, that you have chemistry with. And you're like, oh, you say, well, you say, we say, we're like, you can really. One thing. Yes, that's the ultimate bust balls. Roman saw Jerry freaked out and started playing with the stitches, and then Ken and Roman have their moment. And Ken's like, yeah, sure, it could have been you. And Roman's doing the, like, why isn't it me?

Why not me? Little Fredo-ish. I wrote down Fredo with a limp dick that that's Roman. I'm your older brother, Mikey. And all I wanted was some respect. Send Fredo off to do this. Send Fredo off to do that. I'm your big brother.

That was good, Bill. I just broke out the gazelle, just unprompted. And they had the big brother hug. And that felt a little Michael Corleone-ish hugging Fredo, too, because in Godfather, too, when he's hugging Fredo, Fredo's, like, sitting and Michael's standing, remember? And he's like, his head's, like, way lower than Michael. And in this scene, you only see Jeremy Strong's head. You only see, like, Roman's hair, basically, as he's, like, squeezing his stitches out.

Well, even just the echo of, I knew it was you. and it could have been you, you know, that there's clearly, it's like a very obvious homage to the Godfather. And you mentioned it, I think last week in the episode, but I think this whole season and really this whole series,

you know, the Godfather's very Shakespearean in terms of stories of succession and power, but there are over references to the Godfather throughout this episode. It'd be funny if Jesse Armstrong never saw either Godfather. I mean, it's possible.

He's like, I'm British. I don't know what that fuck that movie is. And he might just be doing, you know, King Lear and Henry the Fifth, but I think he's seen the Godfather. So we go in the boardroom, we covered all that, crazy fight in the conference room, and then Roman, you thought this was too neat when he said, it's glue and broken shows, it's nothing, it's fucking nothing. We are bullshit, we're nothing. I don't know how I feel about it yet. I want to watch the show like three more times. It did, it did felt a little tidy. I shared your sentiment, even though I liked it and I thought the scene was riveting. It felt a little too easy. It was just explaining what we know, which they don't have to say. You know, like, we know that.

And the show, I think, is very verbose and so tightly constructed from a dialogue perspective that it was a rare time where, I think, just gilded the lily a little bit. What did that guy say to them tell us? Yeah, like if he had said, Ken, they call us the incredible fuckbrother bandwagon. Like, this stuff's not coming out of nowhere. Like, we're fucking fuck-ups. This is why dad said we weren't serious people. I don't know.

I felt like that could have gone a step further. Regardless, they go back in, and Frank said it's done. Seven, six. We sold to Gojo. You don't have it. And Tom says, Hugo goes up to congratulate Tom and to be the smart meat. That's another fun thing about the show is there was these little mini-success in the succession.

Hugo sucking up to Tom, and he's like, where's Carolina? Greg offers congrats. They do their little dance. And it's clear he's going to keep Jerry, our girl. that very low usage rate on Jerry this episode I'm the last couple I didn't love it Not enough There was a time when she was the fifth most important character

On this show and they scaled her back a lot He's getting rid of Frank and Carl Couldn't be more excited to do that Although they're thinking about something else They're thinking golden parachutes or one last rodeo That could have been the spin-off Let's go already Orchutes or one last rodeo

The spino show with those two guys And then Tom tells Greg You fucked it Quad man you are a piece of shit I don't think he's going to fire him though I think he's going to be Tom's piece of shit I agree I got you I got just enough capital

and then he places the sticker right on his forehead photo shoot Mattson makes the Jesus is in his disciples joke and then says even Judas is in the room and everybody has a laugh at Greg's expense great stuff well one quick thing that we skipped over is just Roman really not wanting to go into the room with Mattson and not wanting to be seen or photographed

with him because of what transpired on the mountain and how they you know how things broke really bad between them right and and he's self-conscious about the cut on the same so we end with roman at a bar having a martini just broken tom walking to his car finally the man chest out tom wombs gans he fucking did it shiv's waiting for him half-ass handhold and then kendall aimlessly wandering through the park with colin the grim reaper behind him and they end at godfather too style, a tiny bit. Yeah, although, you know, he's destined to walk the earth tragically alone like Michael Corleone, but not, he doesn't have the family, he doesn't have the power, you know,

he doesn't really, he has a lot of money. He got the money. Michael Corleone was alone with power, and Kendall's alone with money, but he's a joke, and he'll never have a chance like this again. And he killed a waiter. Yeah, but we can even debate that, you know, did he kill the waiter? I'm not so sure. He tried to say it.

Well, the waiter kind of grabbed the wheel, but, you know. Yeah. They were both doing drugs. Probably involuntary manslaughter. Yeah, yeah. Five to ten. I think I'll always think about Kendall when I think about this show. I'll always think about Jeremy Strong and what they did with this character.

And the fact that what Shiv said and what she was feeling, I think, was right. You know, that he was not right for this, that he was broken, that she couldn't bear to a stomach seeing him go into this position. It would have been bad for her. It would have been bad for their family. It would have been bad for the business. And still, I found myself. rooting for him to have some redemption. I liked watching him get

redeemed this season when he gave these great speeches. And I know a big part of that is just Jeremy Strong having this incredible ability to be like the dumbest asshole ever, but also really emotionally affecting. But I just felt depressed looking at him. I felt like they really nailed the tragedy of that

character by having him be alone, but as you said, guarded by the Grim Reaper. And he's kind of given up his kids. He's given up Rava. He's given up Naomi. He's given up his siblings. He lost his relationship with his father. He barely speaks to his mother.

He's got Stewie, I guess. Shout out to Stewie. He's stuck by him and voted with him at the end. But, I mean, he really just doesn't have anything now, except a big pile of money. And Peter's business plan. He's got that, maybe. It's a good point.

It's a good point. He can go back to Peter, which that'll be great. They'll make loads together. Daddy's here productions. Just started out. This phenomenon happens sometimes when you have these horrible characters. It happens with documentaries too. You could be watching a documentary about the worst person. And by the third episode, you're like rooting for them to get away with whatever crime

they're doing like, don't catch him yet. There's something about the Jedi mind trick of just spending a ton of time with a character where you just subconsciously start rooting for them. Doesn't happen in sports. Like I could watch 82 Laker games. I'd never start rooting for them. But with Kendall, not somebody we should be rooting for, not a great guy. And yet you're rooting for him to be like, man, maybe this guy can get over the. the hump. You know, everything's relative. Like, am I rooting for him against Tom? I think Tom is funny, but do I care about Tom more than I care about Kendall as a viewer

of the show? I don't. You know, I'm more with Kendall. They're all bad people. They're all, we've said it over and over again. They're all scurrilous, amoral, vicious, dangerous. But the Kendall creation is like very few other characters, you know, and there's a reason that we, you know, we say Tony Soprano. we say Walter White and all these other characters who he like he reminds us of in a way, who we found ourselves rooting for even though we knew that part of the point, or maybe almost the point of the shows entirely,

was that this kind of power and this kind of quest for domination is what destroys people. You know, and this was like a destruction of his own making. Everything that happened to him is his fault and the fault of the lineage that he comes from. You know, everybody who's just been the poison dripping through over time. So I thought it was like really brilliantly told and sad. Did it feel like the right place? stop for you?

Like, were you like, okay, this is the end of this story? Yeah, it did. And I really like the fourth season. I do too. I do think we used the word,

the phrase landed the plane over and over again. I thought they landed the plane. I thought the third episode is one of the great hours of TV in recent memory. The ninth episode is one of the best episodes they've ever had. There's a couple episodes, but that happens with any TV season, I think. I don't think it was ever going to matter. the heights of that first season, those last five episodes, when the show really figured out what it was and just ripped off some of the most entertaining shit like we'd seen probably this century.

But for what it was trying to do and whatever message it was trying to say, I thought it delivered, which was I was going to ask you, Jesse Armstrong, British guy writes this thing. He's obviously got some worldview he wants to put in. and it ends with Tom and this random guy from Sweden, Mattson, basically taking over this whole news network that is determining a pretty decent chunk of American culture. Yeah. So what's he trying to tell us?

This is how this is how this keeps happening? Well, I mean, there's probably some very specific points you could make. You could say, like, the story of America is one that, like, it got too big for its bridges and globalization came forward and essentially started eating it from the inside out. You could look at who owns the massive tech corporations throughout the world

or what dominates our time and say, oh, a Swede coming in and buying and taking over something like this indicates, you know, America is weaker than ever and it has become like the kind of meat puppet that Tom will be for Mattson. You know, that that's kind of like a metaphor

for what's going on with America. I think you could also just say that guys like Tom dominate kind of captains of industry, these kind of milk-toast, inoffensive, hard-working, but, like, ultimately, like, point-of-viewless people that just run corporate America. I think Jesse Armstrong has a lot of disdain for a lot of that part of the, you know, financial sector. I think it's also that just, like, America was once a story of family businesses and that these kind of like, these titans of industry who built things after coming to this country and then created these legacy

companies that their family, you know, the Rockefellers and, you know, that go on and on through history have just gotten weaker and weaker over time and that the offspring of like pampered kids don't really have the guile or the ability to kind of push through and follow through. And like the fail son is a big theme of this show. And I think it's clear that like in the time of Nepo babies, like maybe Jesse Armstrong buys into that a little bit. Yeah, to me that is the dominant theme of this show is that a lot of times with power, the power is created by these big, larger-than-life people who made their own bones. And whether you like them or not, whether they're good people or not, depending on who it was,

those are still the people who did it. And the kids just never have the same juice. It's the theme we've talked about a bunch of times this season. Because we see it in sports all the time when the team gets handed to the kid, the brother, whatever. And it almost always goes terribly because they don't know how to run shit. They, you know, they were part of this rich family. They were handed off to different nannies, and they weren't really around. They never had to figure out things on their own.

And their only qualifications were that they were related to the person who owned the thing. I think that was like one of the big themes of the show of not the biggest, is like, this is how this happens, whether it's entertainment, business, tech. It's even happened in politics where somebody was somebody's son and they rise up the ranks because there's somebody's son. Absolutely. I think he really cared about that theme. And then I think he cared about the theme of like, who is in charge of culture? Like who really is?

Who are the people behind the curtain? And are they as evil as you think? Are they incompetent? Or do they stumble into it? Or how did they get there? That's such an interesting question. I mean, it's often a confluence of all of those things. But I think that the message of the show is that it's not really about ideas.

It's about bottom line. You know, that most of these people basically want what best for them and oftentimes what is best for them is the highest stock price. Best for them at any stakes. The biggest bonus, you know, the best opportunity to feel, even just to have a moment like Tom has at the end of the show, where as you said, he's got his chest puffed out and everyone is applauding him. And it's congratulations, hail the conquering hero. And that is meaningful. That was Kendall in episode nine leaving the funeral. Yes. Same thing where it's like, I have the juice. People are shaking my hand.

The future president is coming up to. me and telling me how great I did. That's what they want. Part of the reason why the show is so great is that there is something ultimately relatable about that feeling. Now, I may never be in a situation where I am applauded as I enter a room and am announced as the next CEO of a massive corporation, but I want to be told, great job. Or you're in charge now. Or, you know, we have a new project. We want you to run. Like, everybody can relate to that. Everybody can understand wanting to be in a position where they get more or told that they're special. And so even though this is at the highest stakes of our

culture, and I do think you're right, that he is interested in how people come to basically create and control everything behind our culture. There's also something very fundamental, boiled down human about what he's trying to say, which is everybody just wants to be told, I love you by my dad, I love you by my kid, you know, you're doing a great job by your boss. My brother and I go to a ball game together. You know, it's very simple stuff. And it's part of the reason why the show is so devastating is even though these people are ghouls and they have lives that we can't possibly understand. There's still just human beings.

Well, even Roman, when he hits rock bottom, where does it go? He goes to his mom, who's the worst mom of anybody who's ever been a mom on any of these shows. She's literally doesn't care about her kids and is a horrible human being and doesn't want to be in the room for any sort of intimate moment ever. Yeah. And when Kendall, Kendall's completely broken in the second season and just has to tell somebody what happened to him and what he did.

And she's like, can we do this in the morning? I mean, I had a long day. Her son is like melting in a kitchen chair in front of her. She's like, can we do this over breakfast tomorrow? I'll see you around 8, 7.30 if you don't kill yourself. Yeah, she's, she's, I wouldn't say Caroline came out seeming any nicer at the end of this series. She didn't seem like a very good mom. I worry about her grandmother skills.

Well, you know, sometimes bad moms make great grandmothers. You never know. Sometimes. Is that what they say? Sometimes, yeah. Yeah, I worry about that this kid, the Shiv Tom kid, is really. really up for something special. Although now he'll have a pay hike so he can hire like seven nannies and really get that

going. He'll be an extraordinary generation of child because he will come from a hundred-year family in the Roy's that built culture. But then he also will have Tom's jeans and Tom, who is a snake among snakes and who has risen to the top of his industry. So think of all the awful power and desperate moves he'll make to stay. atop the world. I mean, that kid is, that could be, as you would say, Bill, Damien Oman. You know, that could be the ultimate antichrist. Is that six, six, six and his go?

Is that kid hyphenating his name? Is that, are we going? And do they name the kid Logan if it's a boy? You know, I thought that they would make that joke at some point because that idea crossed my mind, too. They never actually made it, but it does seem like it would be Logan, right? Logan Roy Wamsgans, like with the hyphen? Could be. Snoring, gasping during sleep, feeling fatigue, Ask your doctor about Zepbound, terseptite. The first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and adults with obesity. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and obesity to improve their OSA.

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Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulfonel urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsened kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-99 or visit Zepbound.lily.com. I guess the last question is, are you ready to think about this and the big against all the other shows?

Yeah. Against bad men and the Sopranos and The Wire and Breaking Bad and all the great ones, Thurons? Yeah, I mean, I knew you would ask. I have been thinking about it a lot. I haven't been revisiting the show, so it's a little hard not having them fresh. I think that the Wire and Breaking Bad both were very flawed finalities to me. I think that they had great things in them but had huge gaping flaws. I think Mad Men is like one of the most masterful

finalities of all time, but I think its final season was a little up and down. I think The Sopranos is as close to an A-plus as you can get with all the hindsight we have now. Like when we look back at that episode and we look back at the risk that they took and the way that they just confounded everybody and demanded that we talk about it and pay attention.

I just thought that that was an amazing stroke. I think this show hitting, like closing its final season so well especially at a time, like all of those shows happened at a different time in culture when it felt like TV was becoming a profound art form for really the first time. No disrespect to your beloved Miami Vice or saying elsewhere, I love Lucy,

or anything else that is great in the history of TV. It was becoming something different and it was being recognized as such. And there was a lot of energy and time being put into it. And there was a safe space. And there weren't 300 other shows to compete with. You know, there were like 30 or 50. And so for a show like this to be happening now,

And even as as HBO Max is turning over to Max, you know, like at this very strange moment in history, it just felt very special. It felt artistic. It felt unique. And, you know, I don't know about brave, but it felt bold. So I think it's pretty high up there for me.

Like I said to you last week, it was climbing the rankings after I saw episode nine. I didn't have that quite feeling of, like I said, like that spine-tingling feeling I had when I was watching Ewan's eulogy, for example, where I was like, wow, this is just on another level. Like, I'm vibrating watching this show. But it did, it did, to use your phrase,

laying the plane in terms of making the story make sense to me, making the character's destination make sense to me. So I would put it pretty high. I mean, it's in that, like, five or six of the 21st century shows. What about for you? Well, we're talking prestige. We're not talking like curb and shows like that or not Larry Sanders. I still have Sopranos and Wire, one, two.

but I think Succession is making a play for three for me because of the rewatchability of it and because how incredibly acted it was. It's funny. Mad Men is a show that I loved when it was on. I watched all of them and I've never gone back and watched it again. I've never, I know some people have done the Mad Men rewatches, especially during the pandemic. The pandemic, yeah, it was huge during the pandemic.

And I'll probably do it at some point and maybe I'll do it and go, oh my God, I can't believe how I, this was amazing. Succession, I think I've watched four times now. And I think one of the cool things about it, other than just how incredible the acting was, it captured all these little moments of the, whatever this generation of culture was in all these different ways, even like the Volta episode, right?

Or the tech conference episode. And it just, the way it dove into wealth and the political episode when they were trying to figure out what political candidate, I think that stuff's going to age incredibly well. We're talking like 10, 15 years when you see some of those episodes, whereas the Sopranos feels like it's happening in this world that is like this self-contained world that you can dive into. You kind of know it's early 2000s, right?

But the wire, same thing. It's the specific look at Baltimore that's age beautifully. You can watch those things over and over again. The stuff they're doing in this show, I just feel like was relevant to things that were happening in life at the same time, right? Even as we're going through this election now and they're marrying that in the show, I can't remember another show hitting stuff in real time in the show that had nothing to do with the stuff that we were living through, but had everything to do with the stuff we were living through.

You know what I do? Yeah, I do. I'm at the risk of getting a little highfalutin here. I feel like there are a few different ways that these shows. are about things. I think some of these shows are about real-life events or coming close to real-life events. You know, like the West Wing is a show about events. And it is a show about ideas and ideology. Westwood is a good example of that, by the way. But the West Wing is an interesting, I think, comparison point because when you go back and look at that show, you can see like the,

the kind of like bloated idealism of a bygone time. You know, like that was a show that was almost leading up until Barack Obama. You know, it was like, it was a version of like centrist, liberal ideology that kind of couldn't survive. We could have a president or a leader that could actually make a difference and we could all believe in them. Yes. And then there are other shows that are about institutions and how the world intersects with them.

And I think that the wire is the best example of that, right? The wire looked at the school system. It looked at capitalism. It looked at journalism. It looked at law enforcement. You know, looked at politics. It looked at crime. It looked at these big ideas.

And it built really strong characters that you loved. but it wasn't quite the same. It was more important to talk about the institutions in many ways. Like David Simon kind of frankly talks about this. And then there are some shows that are about those things as well, but then there's a philosophy to them. Like, I was, Madman was always my favorite because I felt like a show about like the philosophy of a person,

the philosophy of a life. And Succession feels closer to that to me. You know, it's about institutions. It's about ideas. But it's about how a person goes about living their life and how they think about living their life. and like deep diving into Kendall in that way and thinking about how kind of tortured he was

and how he knew how tortured he was and he couldn't get out of his own way. Maybe philosophy is the wrong word. Maybe psychology is the word I'm thinking of. But it felt like just the deeper examination of something than we were used to getting. I think the Sopranos is still number one too. I completely agree with you

because it is like the ultimate fusion of that, right? It's like, that's the ultimate America is dying story told through the lens of a dying mafia. It's the ultimate dying American family story told through the eyes of, like an awful dad. But, and it has all the performances. It's funny.

That's the other thing, too, is that Succession, Mad Men, and Sopranos really made me laugh. And Succession, maybe the most of the three, but Sopranos was way funnier. I actually think the wire was a little funnier than it got credit for it.

It was, but also people just got shot in the head every week, you know? Like, it could be brutal. Yeah, I think one thing with Succession, like when I was talking about how it kind of makes you think about things that are happening in real life. Like, one of the things is these Rupert Murdoch

you know, Sumner Redstone, these families and these old, old, rich, wealthy guys who can have such a huge impact on society in so many ways. I'd never really seen that done the way it was done in this show, but really hadn't really seen that pulled off at all in a TV show. We've seen it in movies, I guess, a little bit. And then the sense of the family too and how a fucked up family can also be a prominent family

at the same time, which I think is one of the reasons the godfather has been so rewatchable over the years, and we did rewatchable, rewatchable's episodes on it. The reason we all love that movie the most is because how the family all related to each other and the scenes with, like Michael in the kitchen with Comenzo, why don't you tell that girl you love her making?

Just like that day-to-day stuff, but at the top of it, it was this vicious family. I thought this show juggled a lot of stuff that made me think, oh, that reminds me this. And I can't remember another show, doing it as well. I thought the wire was the show I probably learned the most from. And this show, I thought, did the best job of pulling real life things into it that kind of crystallized things that were in my head. I think that's really well put. I think that the wire was based on the work

of journalists and cops and people who were in the street life literally. Like they were giving their testimony about the life. And as we know about succession, this was a lot of like research from people who were experts in the Murdox, but Rupert Murdoch was not talking to Jesse Armstrong. So there is, it's a work of imagination in a lot of ways. It's a very, very special show that person that I've always thought of

when I think about the way that the show is written is Patty Chayevsky, who was like very famously, like could see the future as a writer and who did a similar thing to this show, which is that every character in Patty Chiafsky films spoke more intelligently and with more kind of verve than any normal person would.

You know, like his character. characters gave long monologues. They had incredible foresight into the future of the industries that they worked in. They were deep. They were strange people.

They were funny people. They weren't realistic, though. You know, succession, these characters in this world don't talk like this. They don't talk like Kendall. You know, they don't talk like Roman. They don't have that sense of humor.

They don't have that verbal skill. And so there is something like otherworldly. Like it's like a, it's a fake universe that they've created, even though it feels so real because of that acting that we keep going back to. And so because of that, like, it's a standalone. Like, it's a one-of-one.

There's not really another show that's like it. The only, the last point I make is it's a show where there's no greatness in anybody except for Logan, who is great kind of for all the wrong reasons. But you have these other shows. Like, even somebody like Tony Soprano was great at what his job was

and just seeing the chessboard and he's in this world of crime and he's got all these people working for him. But, you know, for the most part, like, was good at it and really played that. Nobody in this show, I guess, like, I'm trying to think, like, going through. Like, even Mattson was kind of a fuck up. And this guy's, like, a chelionaire. Yeah, I think that I might have said that last episode,

Mattson and Mencken were, like, auditioning to be the next Logan. You know, those were guys who were self-made in that same mold that we were talking about, where there's very few people who can kind of get to this moment. They often come from like lesser means. You know, they're not poor necessarily, but they have the desire to build. And they'll do anything they can to do it. In the immediate cast and the immediate family of the Roy's,

no, none of them. They're all fuck-ups. They're all fail sons and failed daughters. And that's by design. Like the Jimenez character all the way down the line. Yeah, Lynn, Rinn Walter. That's a... Hugo is loser daughter selling stock.

You know, all these people. They're all fuck-ups. What Joanna Shakespeare thing do you think we missed out not having on this episode? Well, it wasn't Richard the 3rd. I'll tell you that. I just rewatched an adaptation of Richard the 3rd today to get ready for this. And this was not Richard the 3rd.

I mean, there was... Had it Richard 3rd end? I can't remember. I haven't known that since high school. He amasses all of his power, but he's left alone. He's left alone to kind of like goad on it and then dies tragically. It got very much Godfather 2 style. I'm not, I'm not sure. I mean, there's a, you know, there's a bit of Hamlet in,

in Kendall. There's a bit of Macbeth in Kendall. Ultimately, like, the fact that it's, it's Lear is what everybody's going to think about. It's Logan. Like, that's the other thing, too, is you think that this version of Waystar Royco is going to be successful, because I'm not even convinced. Like, I think that one other thing that they're talking about is that sometimes when these companies come in and they buy companies and then they scoop them out for all their component parts and they disassemble them in real time in front of you. They show you just how kind of valueless these things are or how, like, our imagination about what a big corporation like this is, is just a series of, like, pieces take together.

Yeah. What can choose the stock price? What move? Here's my last question. Is this episode and this season and this series better if Kendall presses the up button on the elevator and jumps off the top of the building? And that's how the show ended. I think it would have been too broad a stroke. I think maybe if, maybe if they had left us in that moment where he had been previously when he just stood there. He's just on and you don't know what he's going to do? And you don't know. And I've got to assume. that they considered that as an ending. I would have liked that.

I think I would have liked that more than just staring at the weather. I did love seeing Colin as, you know, kind of his shadow in a lot of ways because Colin also knows he killed the guy. Yeah, and following him around for the rest of his life, haunting him. I think Colin gets health insurance? I do. I do. I think Kendall has like $1.8 billion now so he can afford it.

I hope he has a corporate card. All right. Well, we're going to have Joanna is going to be on here in a couple of days, I think with Van, doing a deep dive on the episode. And you can also enter Andy Greenwald on the watch. He gave his thoughts. And you can check out the ringer.com as well. Kai Grady helped us make these podcasts all year.

He was our producer. We're going to miss them. Sean, it was always great to see you every week, even though I see you all the time. But it was always fun to just talk about a TV show with you. We'll see. I'll text you on like Tuesday and see how you're feeling. and after the fourth time we watched this. Bill, what's the return policy on these 10 pods that we did together?

Can I send it back? You might be able to. All right, that's it for the prestige. Thanks for listening to everybody. We really enjoyed doing this, and it was great. And I don't know. What will be the next big show? Is it going to be probably not the idol?

Even though I'm excited to see that hit the world. But I'm not sure what we're going to be covering on this during the summer because the summer things usually quiet down. but I'm sure we'll come up with a couple good things. And we'll do some Hall of Famo episodes, too. So stay tuned for all that. Thanks, Sean. It was good to do this with you.

Thank you so much, Bill. I really enjoyed it.