The Prestige TV Podcast - The ‘Battlestar Galactica’ Two-Part Episode That Got Us Hooked

Episode Date: September 17, 2025

Hooked goes to space! Jo and Rob are joined by Mallory Rubin to break down the two-part first-season finale of the reimagined 'Battlestar Galactica' TV series. (00:00)  Intro (02:52)  Battlestar Galactica backstories (11:28)  **MINI-SPOILER WARNING** through season 1 finale (25:21)  A show under threat of cancellation (43:59)  Who won the episode? (49:31)  Most 2005-thing about the episode (1:11:30)  **BIG TIME SPOILER WARNING** (1:20:19)  Rob’s ‘Lost’ season 1 check-in Email us! [e-mail] Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of ‘The Prestige TV Podcast’ and so much more! Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney  Guest: Mallory Rubin Producers: Kai Grady and Donnie Beacham Jr. Additional Production Support: Justin Sayles Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Terms apply. Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson. I'm Rob Mahoney. And we are here with a very special guest here to talk to us for our hooked Battlestar Galactica podcast. I could only think of one possible person. Is she a sylon? Hard to say.

She doesn't sleep and she remembers everything. So she might be. It's Mallory Rubin. Oh, Joanna, Rob. All of this has happened before, including when we were. recorded together for multiple hours just this morning and all of this will happen again. The thrill of my life to be here with you guys today. I mean, always the thrill of my life to pot with you both.

But to talk about my favorite show, I just, I can't believe it. A lot of faves going around. Mallory and I are watching Buffy over on House of Our. Rob and I checked it on Lost and we will get another, Rob, the people are clamoring for a Rob lost check-in. So we will do that at the end of this. They really are. We will do that at the end of this podcast. Rob will let us know how it's going over on the island. But yeah I mean, look, but Joe, I mean,

as a testimonial again, like I am fully hooked. Like I am I am so hooked I cannot put it down. I'm so hooked that I basically got COVID as an excuse to mainline episodes. You know, it does. Our podcast does work, it turns out. We didn't just hook Rob. We hooked Rob's wife. The whole family is now watching Lost. It's, it's very exciting. So yeah, if you're just joining us for the first time for a hooked episode of the Prestige TV podcast, what we've been doing is going through some big and also Veronica Mars television shows that we love. Be respectful. Big to me and big to the world.

And asking ourselves the question, if you were trying to get a friend or a partner to watch a show with you, what's the one episode you would show them to get them hooked if it's not the pilot? So in the case of loss, we watched the pilot and all these other discussions. We have not been picking the pilot. We let our guest today, Malay Rubin, pick the episode that we would talk about. and we'll get to that in a second. Quick, the briefest, and I should say, there's a lot to talk about.

There's three of us here today. We're going to do our best to get through everything that we have to say, but we all are very passionate about this, and I'm so excited that Mallory is here. Here's a quick snapshot of Battlestar Galactica. Folks are new to this concept, okay? Battlestar Galactica was a reboot of a 70 show with its own very complicated backstory,

which we don't have time for, which first became a mini-series in 2003, and then ran for four seasons, and two movies from 2005, at least in the U.S. to 2009. It put the sci-fi channel on the map, perhaps inspiring the schmancier sci-fi, S-Y-F-Y re-branding in 2009, spawned two ill-advised spinoffs, gave us all complicated feelings about tank top layering, and inspired the greatest Portlandia sketch of all time. Undeniably, yeah.

Is this a backdoor James Callis-based promo for upcoming Slow Horses' coverage? Who's to say? I couldn't tell you. I am to say, Joe, because he's basically playing Gaias Baltar again. On slow horses. And we, I wish his character on slow horses was as sharp as Gaius Balthar. And I think he's a little stupider on slow horses. Also, I have to challenge you a little bit.

Caprica slander. I knew, I knew. I knew, I knew. I like Caprica. I knew you were going to fed Caprica. I knew it. Nobody on Zoom today will defend blood and chrome, I don't think. But I was pretty sad when Caprica got canceled.

Me too. A fun fact that. I want to say about the precious stew that is Battlestar Galactica is that when it premiered 1970s in the 1970s, it was so close to Star Wars that George Lucas and Fox successfully sued them over it. Ron Moore, of course, came from a Star Trek background. He's a next-gen, D-Space 9 guy, so he brings that sensibility over. They're inspired by aliens and also Rob's favorite West Wing is also something they were deeply inspired by making this. It's just like a crossroads of so many impactful IPs inside,

and it is like one of the best examples of what to do with rebooted IP. Mallory Rubin, what is the personal significance for you? Battlestar Galactica. This is one of my three favorite shows of all time. Might be my favorite show of all time. I'll be curious to check in with myself on that. I'm with you guys after I finish the show. this rewatch, which this one podcast has started for me.

Another satisfied customer. Causing trouble all across the, yeah. As Joe knows, my husband, Adam and I, this is a shared favorite of ours. And we, you know, have watched it start to finish together a couple times. And we've been talking for the last few years about how we were really overdue for a rewatch. So we didn't need much of an excuse to dive back in. This was like the gentlest twist our arms. Why don't you know that we've maybe ever had?

but I just adore this show and it's like one of the first shows, actually along with Lost, one of my other top shows of all time that Adam and I like really fell deeply into together. So it's like a big part of our relationship, which is something we really love. The writing, the acting, the directing, the scoring, the formal and structural innovation, the tone, the ideas. You know, I think like it's a, as Joe already kind of hit on, like a new and very particular spin on a classic concept. what does it mean to be human? What is worth fighting for?

How do you think about rebuilding? What are you even trying to rebuild? If you've already lost, right? That's where we start, is that they've lost. And that is just such a delicious place to be. The way that this show across its seasons and its movies, explores simultaneously the human capacity for failure and perseverance is, I think, really unmatched, the characters to me are indelible. These are just some of my favorite characters in a show ever

and the relationships that they share with each other, which we'll talk about, you know, some of the showcase moments for those in the episodes that we chose, just the best. The way that the show explores identity, faith, the things that we love to talk about, you know, prophecy, religion, the idea of destiny, our role and in the affairs that guide the world, the choices that you make, the conflict that you face the way that personal and professional obligations are often on a collision course with each other. It's just the perfect brew of all the things I love. So say we all. So say we all. It is hard to overstate. Maybe impossible to overstate how much this show fucking rules. It is so good. It has been so long since I have spent a significant amount of time with it.

Love that. Watched it like more or less in real time, a little, a slight delay but caught up. I haven't seen it start to finish then in like 15 years basically. And so I show that I have a long lasting relationship with, but have been plucking episodes for we watch us here and there. It has been such a delight to be back in this world again, especially flashing back to my college apartment on the walls of my college apartment. I had various prints from the basketball blogging collective Free Darko. I had a couple of movie posters.

Empire Strikes Back. Taxi Driver. I'm sorry, I am who I am. The Australian Western, the proposition was represented. And most notably in our case today, the giant widescreen, last supper photo print of the Battlestar Galactica cast. Speaking of iconic, just a show that knew, I think maybe not even right out of the gate exactly what it wanted to be, but found it and secured it so tightly in terms of tone, in terms of ideas. There's so much happening here.

And I think ultimately, Joe, this is just one of the great. world-building successes in modern television history, which makes me a little, it's a little bittersweet to not be picking the miniseries because the miniseries is really good. It rips, and we'll talk about it.

We will definitely talk about it. Rob, did you know that I own the proposition on DVD? I mean, as you should, that movie is amazing. I feel like that doesn't mean much when it comes from someone who is like a huge DVD collection,

but I literally have like two shells of DVDs and one of them is the proposition. One of 30 DVDs that you own is the proposition? Exactly, with my Veronica Mars box sets. Okay, anyway, listen, my experience of Battlestar Galactica is I did not watch it when originally aired. And in fact, I was just like in the process of meeting a new friend group while it was airing. And they would get together every week and make dinner and watch Battlestar Galactica. And no one ever invited me.

And that's okay because I was new to the friend group. But I was like, but I wasn't watching the show. No, so they just like didn't consider it. They had been doing it for like a couple of years. And I would just hear about it. And I'd be like, oh my God, I want to be invited over to make dinner and watch a TV show together. and it was like a different, a much nerdyer group of friends than I had ever hung out with before. And it was my real introduction to that kind of really communal spirit around something as deeply nerdy and fandomy as Battlestar Galactica.

So this is like, we've talked about how Buffy Vampire Slayer introduced me to like message boards. This introduced me into like real time, share the room with the people you love and watch the thing together and then talk about it kind of fandom. I watched it later on like, I believe, discs that I'm I ordered through Netflix and then eventually like got the box set, a like really sick box set for Battlestar Galactica. Just because I was like, I feel like I'm missing this really important thing and I want to know what everyone's talking about. In terms of like, you know, Mallory hitting the theme so beautifully, Rob talking about sort of

its place in the larger pantheon of world building, something I love about Battlestar Galactica is that they employed so many writers that have worked on other things that I've loved. including like thinking about Ron Moore bringing his Star Trek brain, bringing like his Deep Space Nine, you know, what it means to be the captain of something, Cisco Brain to Adama, something like that, like all of that stuff. The nuts and bolts of the writer's room around this are really interesting to me. And I've been, my, my friend of the pod, Mark Bernardin, hosted a Battlestargo-Lecta podcast, rewatch with Tricia Helfer. And I was re-listening to some episodes. And I was sort of, shocked to hear Ron Moore say that when they were sort of first kicking around this IP, the reason they came up with having the sidelines look like humans was a budgetary one. They didn't have the budget to just do. And so they're like, oh, what if they just look like humans? That's the show.

Like, that is the show. And it's like necessity being the mother of invention. Like, I love this shit. I love when you're just like backed into a corner. You're like, huh, well, what if they look like humans? Oh, oh my fucking God. This episode is brought to you by Borris Head. What if we told you the taste of deep fried turkey

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Visit your local deli today. Discover the craftmanship behind every bite. Boershead committed to craft since 1905. It just changes everything. That is Battlestar Galactica to me. So here's the spoiler warning. We will talk a little bit about the miniseries. We might also talk about 33, which is season one episode one.

So there's a complicated sort of like there are a couple different pilots, quote, unquote, for the show. But Mallory Rubin has chosen the season one finale two-parter. Yeah. Season one episode 12 and season one episode 13. I mean, Cobol's last gleaming. Incredible shit now. Thank you. So spoiler warning up through the season one finale of Battlestar.

I'm going to give this to you in a second, Mallory, to sort of tell us why it was this pick. But just to refresh people, this was story by David Ake, teleplay by Ron Moore, directed by Michael Reimer, who directed both 33 and the miniseries as well. This is the one where things get real religious. Starbuck goes rogue for the first and very last time in search of a prophecy artifact. The opera house makes its first appearance. Sharon

once Sharon tries to kill herself and fails, Heela tries to kill the other Sharon and fails. And the first Sharon tries to kill Commander Adama. Does she succeed? Tune in next season to find out. That, Colbol's last gleaming. Mallory, this is even wilder than Rob's of Veronica Mars picks, which was

like a few episodes deep into season one. We gave you no limits. We said you could pick whatever you wanted to pick. Yep. Tell us why it was Kobel's last gleaming for you. Should we also get into here why it's not 33 in the miniseries or save that? I guess I'll do like a very big picture opening snapshot.

We'll get to that. Yeah. To quote my favorite television character of all time, William Adama, Commander Adama, you got to lose control let your instincts take over. And so it presented with this problem. When a knuckle, like bare knuckle boxing your son. Exactly. That's what I did.

I would like to, without fully undermining this episode of this series that I love that you guys are doing, say, I am a terrible guest for Hooked. Because I would never, as you both know, genuinely never actually suggest that somebody start anywhere other than the miniseries. Never. But I think what you guys are trying to do here is really interesting. And I think acknowledging that for some people, the barrier to entry of three hours for the miniseries is maybe too high. And then also the like question people have of whether they're even supposed to start there. Like it's not listed on an episode guide half the time, you know? I want to acknowledge that.

So we'll get to some of the other considerations with that and 33 later. But I will say, like this is not to me saying people should start the show here. People should start the show with the first second and watch every second of it and then feel that their life is enriched and better than it was before they shared that experience. So I'm not prepared to argue that. What I am prepared to argue is that the two part season one finale, Kobo's Last Gleming, parts one and two, is not only in keeping with, I think the Battlestar is like TV's Holy Grail for the premieres and finale's, the midseason breaks are always actually fucking amazing.

and every other television show wishes they could do that, and they're often two-part bangers. I feel it's representative in that respect. I think that this is, like, this connects to some of you guys have been talking about a lot. This is when I think the show became what it was going to be the rest of the way. This is when the show became a fully realized text that hits on every single aspect of what it is interested in exploring

in all of the seasons that will follow. And I think it does so beautifully. I think the way that it ingreens, it entwines, action, propulsive plot, but is always rooted in complex character dynamics. It's a big expansion of the lore and the mythology. And I think actually weirdly, it's like we could parse this more, but kind of like spoiler light in terms of like going back after you watch this and revisiting the first season. I don't think it saps like a ton on that front.

Certainly there are things that you learn here that you do not know before. But I think it's less damaging in that respect than some season finalities could otherwise be. So I think it's the best thing to show somebody before you go too deep into like season two, three, four, which you would never do. That would be unthinkable to say this is why this is one of the best television shows ever made. You're asking me why in 2025 I'm trying to get you to watch another story about AI taking over mankind. human beings being undone by their creation, I need you to understand right away that this is distinct and this is God tier.

And I think Kobol's last gleaming shows that in a way that I think 33 does not. Well, I am surprised none that the host of House of R when both given a chance to nominate a hooked episode, both smuggled in two-parters. This is not shocking to me. That said, look, this is deep into the, obviously it's the season one finale.

You're going to have missed some stuff. it is a tough entry point per the hooked premise, as you alluded to, now you should start with the midi series. Full stop, you should start with the miniseries. But I think part of the reason we want to talk about Battlestar Galactica, at least certainly part of the reason I want to. This is another show that has, I think, a pretty high barrier to entry between the miniseries element and most importantly,

the name Battlestar Galactica self-selects for a certain kind of viewer. And Cobles Last Gleming is a great entry point for people who don't think they want to watch Battlestar Galactica to show them all of those different colors, that you're talking about now, all the different dimensions that the show is ultimately going to be able to fold in. You put this on and it's not like

if you haven't been watching or you're coming in as an entry point, you're not going to know everything that's happening. Clearly, there's going to be some things that are beyond you, but everything that you're absorbing makes you want to know

where these characters have been and where these characters are going to go. And that, I think that makes it a good hooked episode. I think also, you know, as I mentioned, and we will get to as we talk about a little bit more,

but like this is, this idea of like sort of prophecy or belief is part of the whole series from the beginning. So say we all is all about, you know, this is a religious call and response, you know, that Adama adopts at the end of the mini series, right? So like that's not new to this episode, but it levels up in a significant way in this episode that feels so impactful to the rest of the series and the way in which, you know, Ron Moore announces like we're not shying away from. from this at all where we are doubled down on this. Something that I found out that I didn't know in preparation for this is that I didn't know that the original creator Battlestar Galactica was Mormon. And I was like, once I found, once I learned that, I was like, oh, this is real under the

banner of heaven stuff in terms of like the visions and are they real or are they hallucinations and all these other things are all sort of like baked into that. And I think a lot of people watching this show, not understanding that, you know, we're not going to talk about this, but like the show has a sort of infamous ending that not a lot of people vibe with. But if you go back to this episode and you realize that like you really have to invest in this idea of faith, belief, divine intervention, all these other things, then the ending sort of definitely, you know, they were like, we're directing our arrow towards that this whole time. And so I'm really glad you picked it, Mal. I had a really good time. The best time watching the miniseries, then 33, then the episode before, because I, unlike Mallory, I'm not as committed to watching the entire season this weekend. But I was like, I watched exceptional guest work from now. We asked her to come on and she watches a whole season of Battlestar Galactica.

I was like, oh, I watched seven hours. I'm so committed. And Mallory's like, I watched 15 hours. I was like, wow, I'm a fucking jump, man. But I just like, the work day ended on Friday. I booted up the miniseries. And I was like, there's just absolutely no question that I'm going to watch every episode through the finale and then we'll continue and watch the whole series from here.

So like in some ways, I think that's just, you know, making the case that maybe the pick again should have been the miniseries. And none of us are actually arguing against that. This is more of the case for Cobles Last Gleming, I think, than against the miniseries. It was just the joy of my life to spend Friday night and Saturday rewatching the miniseries in season one. And I can't wait to rewatch the whole show. And I think like another thing that Cobol's Last Gleming encapsulates and presents to people

really well is like a lot of the. tension and a lot of the infighting is happening between the people. Like, it's not just humans versus silons. It's never that simple. And some of the most delicious scenes in these two episodes are people disappointing each other, withholding from each other. They have a shared aim, the preservation and restoration of humanity. They don't always see the path to that aim the same way.

And this is, I think, a good episode. And that's so central to the series, like obviously across the season. So I think that's very present here. Again, I don't want to say, like, you should just watch the miniseries, but that was like one of my earliest notes for the miniseries is like how well it sets up immediately. Yeah. Conflict between Adama and Apollo or, you know, Starbucks and Thai or, you know, like just out the jump, here are all the people who don't get along who have preexisting beef that we are laying out for you really quickly. There's also the way in which so many people have a secret. There are secrets everywhere.

And that, you know, so there's like, oh, I don't know, conflict inside of the human heart, one might say. But it's very different from the discussion Rob and I had last week about Lost, which is the premise being, these are strangers and they're getting to know each other. So we're getting to know them as they know each other. And they do all have secrets. And there is conflict. But it comes from bumping up against someone new. These are people, you know, with the exception of like Rosalind and Adama who don't have a long history before it starts. But like these are people who have no. own each other. And that's a problem. And now there are humanity's last hope. And we have to like plow into the future through all of our history. And that is just absolutely incredible television. I think especially when you take the mini series as plot wise, what is supposed to be the end of something, right? Like the Galactica is being decommissioned. The crew, like people are retiring. People are shifting off. Like this is supposed to be the end of the road. And then on the last day of school, everyone is informed, oh, wait, you are now in school forever and ever, amen,

until like basically fighting for your lives on a daily basis and to sort of take all of that baggage, supercharge it by the stakes, infuse the new characters. And that explains a lot of how we get to where we get in Colville's last gleaming in terms of it was never going to be enough to just have the future sociopolitical thriller in space. Like, we also need some prophecy. We're also going to need these like kind of extra elements that are going to charge the plot that are going to give these characters even more reasons to bump up against each other that are going to create like so much tension between the world of like what is tangible and empirical and what is believable by faith. Yeah. And I think that this like the two part finale

in terms of how it takes the already inherently complex nature of what like you guys are both outlining with you take your history. It's fraught because how could it not be any history between two people is going to be definitionally. And then you heighten it in such an extreme fashion. And whether it is the fact that this was, is your boss or your friend or the person who was engaged to your dead son or whatever the relationship might be. And then you say, okay, the reason that that loyalty exists is complicated. It can't, it can't move on the same straight course.

that the arrow can, Apollos or otherwise, the one pointing toward the finale as Joe line explains. So, like, I just think that this is such an incredible way to say, like, okay, we have a quest. We had a quest initially. It was survive. We have a quest again. And the way that the quest continues to unfurl and the different layers of it, like Cobol and what it represents and the way that it kind of encapsulates this idea of the past guiding the future, even though I think the appreciation of it is of course, enhanced by watching the miniseries and that every episode of the first season. I think the first

season of the show is like dynamite. Really, really good. The second season is my personal favorite. It's one of my favorite seasons of television ever made. But the first season is incredible. All that said, like, I think to your point from earlier, Rob, my hope is that if anyone actually followed the prompt of folks and watch this, they would want to go back to the beginning. This is such a propulsive, almost new pilot, because it's like, okay, we've found this place that was here before. And what are the? visions mean and is this a place we can be and how long can we hide and like the reveals that we are.

Silons can have babies now. Theoretically. Allegedly. It's all part of the plan. The fact that like we know already that boomer is a sylon does not sap anything about boomer having to confront other versions of herself about Sharon having that moment in the B-star or what happens like what passes on Starbucks face. okay, I went against the old man. I had to not only decide to do that, but I had to face the fact

that he let me down, this person I have put all of my stock into, the person who gave us hope that I learned was false. And then I get there and I'm faced with the most damning question of all, which is like, do I even know who's in the bunk next to me? Right? Like, it's just such an incredibly rich and interesting text. I also just think it's so we, we talked about this a bit when we We were talking about Buffy season one over on House of R, but like this idea of a show that never knows when it's going to be canceled. And that's what Battlestar Galactica was constantly under threat of cancellation by sci-fi. But unlike some, unlike what Buffy did, which is like we'll give you a finale that feels like we did it. We save the world's end of sentence, right?

Don't worry about it. Ron Warren is writers. Their attitude was, fuck them. I dare them to cancel us. the fans will be so mad if they cancel us with Adama bleeding out on a console. Like, imagine that. And so to Mallory's point,

these mid-season and finale moments, these dramatic moments are just, you know, to that Portlandia sketches credit, you got to be like, next, next, next, next, next, next. What more, what? Also, this is a sexy two-parter,

and it's a, funny two-partner. And Battle Circle action is very introspective, very heavy, very, it's not only philosophical, it's downright existential. And so I don't think we can understate the import always of Gaius Baltar. And like that is, I should say, actually that weirdly feels to me like the biggest weight you started here. You're spoiled on something more so than even like, oh, okay, six is a Cylon, boomers a Cylon. We learn the identity of four Cylons in the miniseries. Only two of them are featured here. Like I think it's that, that it weirdly feels kind of okay to me.

Gaius is a career ascension. What a lord. New political status is a little bit more. Vice President Baltar, yeah. What? How did we get here? Wrecking ball, but it's just such an incredibly funny. Gaius episode in a way that feels very entwined to these big picture like ten

poles that we're talking about, you know, you can't compete with me like born out of the insecurity and the jealousy and the way that connects to everything going on with Lee and and Starbucks, Starbuck, another one of my favorite television characters of all time, you know, because I'm a screw-up Lee, try to keep that in mind. I think a line in a moment like that

perfectly encapsulates what Joe's talking about. If you watch that, you're like, I don't just care about where these characters are going. I need to understand how they got there. And I think weirdly this episode, like preserves a lot of that. It really does.

There's also the hookiness based in, built into the premise of this. And again, I appreciate the high-flown ideas of Battlestar Galactica. And then I appreciate the sort of like really like street corner want another taste, like ideas of secret sylons. Right. So in 2005, when we're just really getting into like message board podcast theorizing culture around shows, you know, like loss was like a big early example of that. who's the secret sylon or who are the secret sylons or who are these other sylons being something that pulls at your gut and just gets you to like debate and talk and

parse over clues and stuff like that. And then also this is another just sort of like I no shame in the game. Mal mentioned this in a group chat we were in this like earlier, but the fact that at any moment you could have a sex scene and you don't even need any buildup to it, you just need Gaius Baltar to go to like his, his Vancouver mine palace. where one of the hottest women alive, Tricia Helfer, is there to, like, make out with him and have sex with them. That's not even the sex you're talking about, but that is available at any given time inside of an episode of Battlestar Galactica so they can always have sex.

They don't even need to lead up to it at all. And they always have a mystery going right up until the end of, like, who is that, what's going on? And that's just, like, that's television crack in a way that I just, like, I really admire because it is paired with these heady, high-flown ideas about philosophy. religion, politics, human nature, all these sort of things. It's just a perfect combination. High-low, you know? You could put a writer's room, lock them up for a hundred years, and they wouldn't come up with something as horny and propulsive as this. Like, it is just a

perfect concoction. I look forward to seeing what they come up with. If it's better than this, I'm glad to eat my hat on it. All right. So we have some questions we like to ask as we go through considering this two-parter, which again, we're also like, you should watch the many series too. Five hours of television, low stakes to recommend. And then you should just watch 33 and then the rest of the show. Okay. That's great. Is the setting slash location for this episode typical or atypical of the larger season?

Does that matter? I think with something like Battlestar where we're like doing dog fights in space constantly, we're on, you know, the Battlestar, battle star, we're on the Colonial One and we're on multiple planets. That's fairly typical of any given episode. That's the show. Right. Are enough slash most of the main

or important characters represented here? Does that matter? Mallory, what do you want to say about the storylines that we're following inside of this episode? I'm going to just try so, so, so hard to not say anything that I shouldn't say. I think that this episode is,

these two episodes are actually slightly more boomer, Sharon, forward than maybe like, like I would not say that even though I love these episodes are they're not my absolute like favorite Battlestar episodes. Almost every single thing that I would pick for like my favorite Battlestar episode would be very, very, very oriented around Rosalind Adama. Yeah.

That said, I think we still get some not only delicious Rosal and Adama action in these two episodes. It is a wonderful, even though for us it's at the end of a 15 episode, including the miniseries experience. If you're coming to a fresh, you're like, this dynamic to me is rivetive. Right? So I think we get a couple scenes that between them, you know, the scene in the office, in particular where Roslyn is presenting her intention to Adama. And then, of course, the very active challenge and the fact that these two figures who did not expect to find themselves either of them in this circumstance to begin with are in such active opposition inside of this episode. Incredibly interesting and potent to watch. I'll save my further thoughts on that.

till the end of the podcast. When Rosal lays out her plan and Adama responds with, I didn't know you were that religious. I honestly love that moment because then she says like neither did I something wrong with that. And he says, no, it's just new. And to me, that's like the show. You know, the idea that it's just as much about discovering what you believe in at a given moment as like whether all of humankind is going to survive and whether it should. Um, the, so the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the and the, the, the most important characters of it all, and then, guys and six are just, like,

the most important characters in the show, and they're all prominently featured here. And then boomer, Sharon is certainly also main core cast. And I, and I, and I think it's like, given a number of fascinating and really riveting showcases in this episode, the scene with Chief, gut wrenching, the scene with Adama, moving. The scene with Gaias.

That's my, that's to me the standout of the two-parter. Put it into the Hall of Fame for like why the Gaius in particular is an all-time character. I think Trisha, Trisha and James and Grace all in that scene are just like incredible, just really incredible. And like you get you get incredible human drama. You get this

like reaction from six of like I actually didn't even know you were capable of that. You get this reaction from both of them after that as if you haven't rewatched this episode. Gaius like Gaius knows that boomer is a Cylon. She's basically saying like I don't know what's wrong. She doesn't know she's a silent. She's like, I don't know what's wrong with me. I don't know what's going on. I'm thinking basically of killing my. myself and he's like, you should. Yeah. But in much more nuanced, seductive language than that.

And so he is like- Well, more a plausible, deniable language than that. And it's a very- Sometimes we must embrace that, which opens up for us. Life can be a curse as well as a blessing. This is one of the most insidious things we've ever witnessed. It's gross. It's so serpenty, seductive, like, biblical moment. And then you've got this, like, angelic figure just watching, but also like complicit. It's a fascinating dynamic that you can't explain to people outside. You're like, here's this woman. She's in his head, but also not, maybe. Who's to say? This is a woman. Who is asylum? But she doesn't know that. You know, like, to try to explain

all the, all the context of what's going on here is like downright impossible. And you don't even actually need that context because the human drama that's present inside of that scene, inside of this complicated premise is so poised. potent. I just was jaw on the floor watching it. So good. My only concern with picking these episodes is like, are we are we boiling the frog too fast? Like there's a degree of this show where it's like the mini series kind of pulls you into the very tangible version of the show and then we ease into the more religious aspects over time. You know, not having the background about imaginary slash maybe not imaginary six in Gaias's head. That's a hard thing to just like throw an

audience into. And yet you're right, Joe. Like you put it together pretty quickly. okay, this person is actually not in this room. This conversation is taking place along these lines. And what makes Battlestar Galactica, Battlestar Galactica, is Gaius and Sharon have that serpentine conversation. He leaves the room and she pulls the trigger. And I can't tell you how many other shows she doesn't. She reconsiders.

She goes through some other crisis. Someone else stops her. But this is a show for all the handwringing you and I have been doing on Task Joe about like whether this child will live or die, that 10 minutes into the miniseries, a sylon breaks a baby's neck. Horrifying. And you can get away with that when you're about to nuke the whole planet because everything's about to be dead anyway.

But still, they do not shy away from any of the very real consequences of any of these characters' actions. And the reason that every line, that every dynamic, that everything you laid out, Mal, in terms of, you know, Adam and Rosalin and their kind of proxy war among themselves and kind of how Sharon factors and how Starbuck factors. And it's like all that human drama matters because these people are in actual peril all the time. Yeah, and I think the fact that like, okay, we see Sharon enter the base star, this mission, drop the nuke, right?

And confront all of these other versions, make it, I might add, I wonder why Rob was okay with doing these episodes of herself. And the fact that we, if this is your first exposure to the show, understand that there are copies, there are models, there are a number of different versions. Does not in any way diminish, I think, the anguish of watching the hero Sharon scenes where she's like, I get cold, Yila. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I get sad. I feel things.

And like our perspective inherently that we bring to a story like this is the humans are good. The machines are bad. Yeah. And I think the way that this show consistently challenges that without pulling us out of it completely is very, very interesting. And this is certainly a complex time to be engaging with those ideas. But I think it's just a more deft examination of.

that, right? And the fact that like something like Roslyn presenting her views on prophecy and like basically saying, not basically, literally saying to Starbuck, like can I tell you about my role in this? Like I'm the one who's going to lead us there. There are so many versions of that where that is

bizarre, off-putting, alienating something. And with Roslyn, it's like I love the way that she says, you know, people keep telling me it's crazy. Like that doesn't mean it's not Roo, you know, and that she's leaning into the fact that this is a journey of discovery for her as well.

You love that concept. Somehow I knew Mal was going to bring that up in the like, it's all in my head. That doesn't mean it's not true kind of sense. It's just cat. It really is. It really is. Yeah. And I think what's important about all these characters is that, you know, inside of that moment,

Rosalind is doing what she believes, which is she believes they need this artifact, blah, blah, but is she also, in her calculation, saying to herself, I need to tell Starbuck who is intensely loyal that her hero, her father figure lied to her in order to get her to do what I need her to do. Yes. And that is someone, you know, in just the episode previous, you know, she is given a stern talking to by her colleague who she is quote unquote portrayed about like, I never thought you could be in the snake pit with all the other politicians, but guess what? you fit right in. It's like Roslyn is, you know, someone who we meet having to make incredibly difficult gut-wrenching many lives in the lines decisions. And over the course of this season,

we're watching the series just watching what that does to a person and who and who we meet here at the end of the season and who we meet here at the end of season is even more interesting than the very interesting person that we met in the miniseries. And Mary McDonnell, and Edward James almost as like the two like... Mom and Dad. And Michael Hogan, who plays Thai were like the three like really experienced actors that they brought onto this production. And then you cast a bunch of other people who have like, yeah, I've been doing stuff.

Like Tricia Helfred hadn't done like anything. Katie Sackoff had done like a few, you know, like you bring these other people who are much greener in. And so you have this natural dynamic of leader and like subordinate and all these other things. It's just like it's a really fascinating construction. I mean, that's where you get kind of a West Wing effect, too. I mean, slightly different cast in terms of experience, but it's like you put Martin Sheen at the center of a show like that

and everything kind of just falls into place and context. Edward James almost like could not be better in this show. And Mary MacDonald could not be better in this show. And their chemistry together and the way those characters are written to bounce off of each other is just scintillating TV. And like, again, the fact that every other dynamic, especially within these two episodes, kind of folds into theirs, maybe with the exception of the Six Gaias, some of the Six Gaias stuff,

or some of the, like, Gaius and his sense of self-preservation stuff, which is really just an ongoing plot line that the show is perpetually concerned with. Like, that is the magic of what makes Battlestar work structurally. But you need that fun of Six and Gaius. And like, the fact that like... That was a feature, not a bug. Yeah, Mary McDonnell, or just Laura Roslin, is someone that you could just like pluck out of the show

and put her in the West Wing and she just fits... there in that show, which is stunning. You know, Gaius and Six are of this show, undeniably. And that's not a knock on Roslin who I love. But I just, for me, the show is Gaius and six. And like my confusion around, my persistent confusion around what's real and what's not. But what's always sexy, what's always fun, was always smart, was always cunning. I love a villain and, but then also a villain who I'm like, I'm not even sure I would call you a villain.

Actually, at the end of the day, I'm actually not confident about that. And so, you know, I, anytime that Mallory brings up Rosalind and Adama and how much she loves their dynamic and how important they are to her, I love hearing you talk about that. And I also love that for me, the show is something a little different, which is this other thing. And you need all those things for sure to make the show, you know? Yeah, absolutely. I think like, I really love the way you put it, that Gaia since six feel like of this world in a way that they don't make sense necessarily in any other universe. I think that this is one of the more successful ensemble casts in TV history and like the fact that there are so many different pairings like that people could form that level of attachment to and devotion to. Yeah.

Like I can't think about my life as a TV TV viewer without thinking about Adama and Roslin. Like I can't. But consistently. the most entertaining part of watching the show for me is, is Gaias, for sure, you know, Gaius and six. So like, I love that it's all there and I think it has to all be there. Like, that's the, that's the, just of a piece with all the stuff we're talking about today about. It's like this level of variance and specificity that makes it feel so fully realized. Like, it's not just that we're watching people talk about what we need inside of a society.

You believe that this is a society that it was that they wanted to be again because of how fully realized and rich it is, you know? I have an important question for you, Mallory. In terms of like all the conversations that they have about like we need to protect our democracy, our like blah, blah, blah, all of our way of life, blah, blah, would you say that survival is insufficient inside of something like this or? I would indeed. I would say I would say survive and endure. I would say survival is insufficient for sure. Rob, do you have a relationship that feels like the most core to this show that you're most invested in?

I am also an Adama and Roslyn guy, but again, it's extremely hard to pick and choose favorites. It's so difficult, especially within the context of like the Lee Adama stuff is also so rich and the Lee Starbucks stuff is so rich. It's great. The way that those three characters end up triangulating, of course, because Starbuck has her own complicated relationship with Adama and like their own kind of secret language in a lot of ways. Starbuck Adama is like second on my list, honestly. they speak in a code that I just find endlessly fascinating. One year, Starbucks. Nothing but the rain.

Nothing but the rain scenes. Again, it's just like, they're just coming out of the gate with this stuff. Yeah, that's right at the start. It's like right at the start, which is stunning. And to build and build and build to the point that we get to Colville's last gleaming, where you have all of that, the earned history we talked about, the world building that was there from the jump, that dialogue, those dynamics. And now we're just getting into a richness of ideas where we are iterating on iterating

on iterating on iterating. And I think it is a great example, like how far the show can go while at the same time. Snoring, gasping during sleep, feeling fatigue, ask your doctor about Zepbound, terseptite. The first and only FDA approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and adults with obesity. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and obesity. to improve their OSA. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligram injection.

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Who wins this episode? I think it has to be Gaius. Okay. Why? As much as I'm always inclined to want to pick a Dommer or Roslin, I think, yeah, it's got to be Gaius or Sharon to me. I think they just carry the most weight. And for Gaius, this is always the case. I think it's the number of different flavors that he gives us.

The fact that, like, we already talked about that scene that we all adore with Gaius and Sharon and six. And I think like something that is as emotionally rich and dark as that paired with his frankly like insecure male ego mania at the card table paired with his complete breakdown when they crash paired with as is so often the case. I mean, we have Rosalind and Alosha like outright discussing prophecy. But Gaias is the one taking us into that the ruins of the temple for the first time. He touches every strand of the tapestry across these two episodes. And it's just the performance is so entertaining. Like, I just think if you're trying to compel someone to watch the show,

my hope is that they would come to consider Adama, one of the most important figures in their life. If they watch these two episodes, I think they would say, why have I not heard everybody around me every minute of every day talking about Gaius Balthar? Great, great pick. Ramahoni. I am going to cheat.

I'm sorry. No, well, okay. It's the Sharon's. I think it's all the Sherons. I think that's a fair cheat. I mean, the Sharon who wants to continue to be Boomer manages to survive her own suicide and then pull off what is basically a suicide mission

to nuke a Cylon-based ship. That's a win as far as I'm concerned. But the Cylon sleeping within her also wins because it awakens at the worst possible time to shoot Adama in the gut or the chest several times. And the other Sharon also wins because she convinces Hilo to keep her alive. And somehow, I think this is the toughest cell in the entire episode

of all the far-flung plans that people are trying to convince each other of. To convince a human being that you as a robot are pregnant is quite a feat. So I think it has to be the Sharon's. Katie Sackoff is my winner of this episode. Despite my Gaias, six, love and all that sort of stuff like that is, the subtlety of the Adama conversation where she's fishing for information and Starbuck is not known for her subtlety. But like that moment, the moment where she gives a punch, takes a punch, you know, with Lee, the moment where she fights a sylon and wins, she fights six and wins. and then has that like goddural scream about finding out about not only finding out about Sharon but also like this idea that Hilo is like no you can't you know like all this sort of stuff like that like I think that just gives us the full spectrum of what Katie can do and what Katie is so just from the moment we meet her and there's like Cheshire grin on her face and just this cocksure bullshit I just love her um I

I think she's amazing and I just love her in these two episodes, you know. That's fascinating. You should write a paper quietly the moment of the season. Maybe the series. Maybe. Perhaps. Absolutely incredible stuff. This is, I think we've just like made the case for why these are great episodes and why

the show is amazing. It's like you're getting that exposure to how many of these characters are going to work their way into your heart and like touch your life. Honestly, not to be too corny about it. It's just it is a great. showcase for that, as is the miniseries, which everybody should watch. This is not the case against the miniseries. I'm very anxious about people thinking I don't want to watch the miniseries. On the Sharon front, I think that Sharon's saying to chief, like, I wake up in the morning and I wonder

who I am. I wake up and I wonder if I'm going to hurt someone. It's just so, it's so gentle and quiet, but it's beautiful and it's anguish-inducing and it tells us what we need to know. And then he's like, you need help, and she's like, not from you. You made that clear. Yeah. You know? Fuck you, Chief. Again, the choices people make.

I mean, there's also the added layer and we, you know, we talked about this with a bunch of different shows, but the added juice of rewatching these episodes knowing who is a sylon and doesn't even know that they're a sylon. It's spicy. It's an incredible rewatch. Really fun. Now, yeah. Well, all of that said, one thing that I think is important to know about the Battlestar Galactic

experience if you're new to this world or considering watching it. There will be plot holes now and again. There will be some things that no one can explain inconsistencies in character. Do all of the Who is a Cylon revelations completely add up? I don't know, man. I also don't entirely care. And I think this is the kind of show that this is easing you into the idea that you're just going to have to be along for the ride on this stuff.

You're just going to have to be following the prophecy and buying in on some of this on faith. And the reason you buy in is because the character stuff works. And if that's working for you, I think you're going to be able to go along with a lot. Something that we've been doing on these hooked episodes is like the most blank thing about the episode in terms of the year that it came out. This is harder to do in a show that is set in a different time and place as is Battlestar Galactica. But is there a 2005 thing about this episode that stood out to you? Whether it's like characterization, hair, costume, concept, anything like that. I had hard time with this one.

I guess it just took me back in a way I enjoyed to the like, actually the best show on TV is on sci-fi. Yeah. Yeah. Crazy times. I really like, I actually, I like Joe, I did not watch it live and it was on. Adam did. And so at the end, I was like, what is this show?

But, you know, it wasn't getting spoiled because it was so out of context for me. And the second it ended, we watched it all. And then immediately watched it all again. and then I started evangelizing for it and got like everybody I know to watch it. But yeah, I guess that's my pick. And also especially hearing your nugget that you share, Joe, about how they were like, we can't afford to go the toaster route. It's why Grace Park is naked in this episode too, actually,

because it made the visual effects easier. They didn't have to pay for costuming. Yeah, that's why. It was just like easier to digitally overlay a bunch of naked shards versus a bunch of costume charns. Yes. Yes, of course. But also, I love the. The carefully placed shadow of the Battlestar Galactic nudity.

Yeah, you can see boobs, but not nipples. That's helpful. It's key. I do think that the effects, and I say this with real love for this television show, do not hold up, like, super great. It's pretty janky. I would agree, but also the way that they shot it, which is like this documentary sort of style.

Yes. Helps, especially with like the space dogfight stuff. Totally. You know what I mean? The snap zooming kind of. All of that stuff really helps. The space stuff like holds up better. think like when a sylon walks into the room, I'm like, this was a couple decades ago.

And this is why it's great that they look like humans. I will give it to, and this is something that I love to think about. This is something our friend of the pod, I will say Alan Sepanwal, who is one of the best in the entire business, brought this up when he was on our lost podcast years ago, which is the commercial break. When you're watching a show that went to commercial. and the act out of a scene and the dramatic like sort of up act out of a scene, which they don't even really do for shows that have commercials anymore

because they know they're going to go to streaming without commercial so they don't put those act outs in there. But watching something like Lost or something like this that once aired to commercial, it's really like there's just like this fun anticipatory rhythm of it. That is very nostalgic for me that I really like. Totally. I had another Lost related pick for the most 2005 thing, which is watching these two shows in tandem, along with some other kind of mid-2000 stuff right now,

everyone was going through crises of faith, it seems. There's just like a lot of like, man of science, man of faith. I don't think we've ever stopped, but I think it was like such a fundamental point of like front page concern in a way that to be honest, watching Battlestar now, yes, the crisis of faith stuff hits, but my primary concern from a present in societal perspective

is like people are already giving up everything to AI, and AI doesn't even look like Trisha Helfer in a tight red dress yet. Like, how fucked are we? We're fucked. Yeah, totally. But yeah, like, just how much, like, so much, whether it's big cable in this case or big major network media is primarily concerned with issues of faith in terms of narrative. And I think that's scaled back some in more recent creations.

But, like, it's all over the place with these two shows. I will say that, you know, like thinking about the miniseries coming out in 2003, which is only like two years after 9-11 in the way in which the shadow of 9-11 and the Iraqi war, at least in American media, like really cast a long shadow. Rob, I just got really emotional hearing you say a man of science, man of faith. Like, I'm so happy that you're watching loss. It really throws me. Thank you for the gateway.

Consider a man of science, Rob. You know what? I do consider myself more a man of science, but increasingly, you know, you just got to follow your era of Apollo at some point. You just got to know. I think we've already talked about how this episode sets up the rest of the series. Anything else you want to say about Kobol's Last S gleaming specifically where we hit on some beats of the mini-series, which we've also talked about a bit. But we might want to say something else.

Mallor, you want to say? No. Wow. Rob. I do have one, you know, Joe, sometimes we like to isolate particular scenes. Yeah, yeah, please. In particular, the scene where Gaias is having a conversation with Rosalind about how he needs to take. take a break as VP and with six about how they need to go on a break and does it simultaneously.

Something that happens, a version of which happens basically every episode of Battlestar Galactica, fucking phenomenal. And the double writing on this show around Gaius and Six. And James Callis is like pausing delivery where he then has to kind of reroute his thoughts so that it can apply to the other situation. Just phenomenal stuff. I'm not your play things. That's one of the better scenes for the conversation.

Gymnastics because a lot of it obviously is about like the way he's like holding a hand or like where he's looking or the fact that somebody catches him talking to himself and he has to say I'm talking to myself or doing other things with himself famously. Yeah. Jack it off in the lab. Yeah. He's fucking someone against the edge of the table. You know, it could take many shapes and forms inside of this wonderful television program. But the yeah, the conversational gymnastics of him having to turn us mid sentence, something that can fly all around is it's a high comedy. art great well. I mean, and even that, like, it is high comedy. It is art. And then you drill down, and it is what the show is, which is taking these, like, wild ideas and forcing them to confront

very practical realities. It's like, we have these prophecies. We have these religious beliefs. We have these things we can't explain. And yet, you have to call Commander Adama to the room and say, you know what? I think we just need to take our one Cylon Raider and go on a mission that makes absolutely no sense to you. And the, like, the intersection of those things. is what makes the show like really, really crackle. All right. So in terms of like this section where we talk about the pilot and whether or not like we think it works, we're expanding the prompt and saying you can talk about either the miniseries, which we've already talked about a little bit or 33, which is season one episode one, which to Mallory's point, people who are confused about the miniseries, plenty of people start with season one episode one, not knowing that the miniseries is really like not really optional viewing. it really helps to have watched the miniseries.

This is what I will say about 33. And 33 in Water were a double premiere. So I guess you could even do water if you wanted to. Mallory is the one who has watched all the episodes. But the way that 33, and this feeds into what we were saying about Edward James Almost being a leader on set. I was listening to Katie Sackoff talk about how when they were doing 33, Ednaz James Almost is like, okay, guys, none of us are going to sleep.

We're not going to sleep. going to stay awake and we're going to do this and we're going to lose our minds but it's going to be great for our art and Katie's like you do that I'm not doing that I mean canonically they have been awake for five straight days or something at this point it's like everyone looks like everyone looks like shit I love that like your show got picked up after a lot of back and forth on sci-fi and your first episode you have to look as much like shit as you possibly can unless you're Grace Park um and uh and and and then the fact that the premise of this episode is, what are your limits as a human?

Right? Like what, you know, in terms of the idea, the concept of the one where every 33 minutes Cylon shows, show up is like a really great little like hour of television premise. But also like the very nature of the frailty of our team. Yeah. Is that they need sleep, man. They need rest. or a lot of stems, you know, whatever it takes.

That always goes fine. Yeah. How many stims are you on today? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No comment. Also, once again, this is my same as my White Lotus issue. The way that she choose that stem, I'm like, I don't believe that that tastes good. I don't believe it.

Terrible. Mallory, what do you want to say? Anything you want to say about the miniseries or 33 that we haven't highlighted already? I think the miniseries is absolutely dynamite. I think 33 is great. I think everybody should watch both. of them. I do think people should start with the miniseries genuinely. I think part of the exercise of Hooked is, as you guys have said, not to always pick the actual first episode and

to engage with the exercise in that way and make it the extreme. Why Not Start at the end? I think is a fun prompt for this pod. I think that the mini series, we talked about this actually pretty recently together, Joe, because I picked this as one of my entries for best speeches of the century so far. The Adama speech in the miniseries, you cannot play God, then watch your hands of the things that you've created sooner or later the day comes when you can't hide from the things you've done anymore feels relevant now in our lives, certainly. We never answered the question, why? Why are we as a people worth saving? I think it's just incredible. And I hope that people watch it. I think that certainly two 90-minute episodes plus the question of whether they need to

is a barrier to entry. 33, I think is a great episode of TV. And I think it is very representative of the conceptually and like structurally and stylistically bold choices that Battlestar can often make. I think like particularly the first three quarters of season one is defined by a lot of episodes like that. They never go away. It's just that the seasons get longer. So it feels like a larger percentage of season one is I think like oriented around.

That's why Cobal stands out to me is like when the show kind of moves into a different state of being. It's a little trickier, I would say. Yes. You could see it just as an episode as a track episode. Yeah. And so like while I think it is a really great, very clever, incredibly taught intense episode, and I think also still there are like very poignant things that happen that we have to examine

and the characters have to examine what happens with the Olympic carrier, for example. That choice is a huge one. But it's just less rooted in the relationships between the characters and the dynamics. and the dynamics between the characters than I think like the true, true, true Hall of Fame Battlestar episodes are. And also like in terms of the prompt for hooked, I think part of the point of 33

and part of what makes it a great episode of TV is like people are not behaving like themselves, but I don't think that makes it the best starting point to show people what Battlestar is going to be. It's so funny though. I was talking to a friend of mine who loves Battlestar Galactica, but like hasn't watched it a while, but he loves it.

And I was like, oh yeah, we're going to do a hooked episode. And he's like, oh, are you doing the one where they have to jump every 33 minutes. And I was like, no. I was like, but that's a premise that people just remember. Of course. The one where, you know, like, blah, blah. Yeah, I think it's a showcase episode in that respect.

Yeah. Weirdly, the other one that I considered for season one, but like quickly eliminated because it comes, it's another two-partner, not formally in its labeling, but it comes after an episode that literally ends with to be continued. So I just don't think it would be a good faith, like, one to start. But the fifth episode of season one, depending on where you watch and buy season one of Battlestart, the episode numbers will be different based on whether they have coded the miniseries into the episode count. Frustrating.

The debacle. But you can't go home again. I don't think based on the To Be Continued and the fact that like Starbucks says this entire episode, raw dog in the inside of a Cylon Raider, I don't think it actually would be the wise choice to say to someone, don't you want to watch 70 plus hours of this? However, I think it is, at least it warrants mention because it is a beautiful, beautiful episode for understanding the Adama, Starbucks and Adama Apollo relationships. Like, if it were you, we never leave. No matter how many times I watch that episode, it would break me and I will weep like a baby when Adama says that to Lee.

and when Adama visits Kara in her hospital bed at the end, like you understand so clearly how much these people mean to each other in an episode like that, which I think is valuable to show people. I think there's a lot of entry points, to be honest with you, in season one. I think this is a show where you could throw on a lot of different installments and hook somebody. The key is just like getting it in front of them if they are not a sci-fi person. Or as we talked about, just like even the word mini-series and when they see the runtime

can be a little daunting for some people. And so if you just put on the miniseries in the background and didn't tell anyone what it was, it's incredibly grabby, right? This idea of like seeing the thermonuclear annihilation of the planet and the only people who survive are basically on the people who are on ships that are like too old to take the computer virus effectively. An incredibly evocative idea.

And Mao, you nailed it up front of like the confrontation of a like staunch military commander in those circumstances who's doing everything he can possibly think of to keep people alive versus a political leader who understands that the war is already over is such a good juicy piece of TV writing. And what really does it honestly in terms of what I think makes the miniseries and ultimately what makes Battlestar what it is, the show looks great. Like the effects are a little janky, but the way it's shot like is dynamic, is interesting. And I think really exemplified in the stuff with Gaius and Six too, where you just have these constant sort of like swivels around the room in terms of the camera where it will

eventually find six, you know, perched against a counter or sitting in a chair or across the room. And it's like, again, you think you're watching one scene and then six is in it and it transforms the meaning of everything you're watching. And so it turns what on a lot of other TV shows is just like normal work a day stuff of like let's just get our coverage. Here's the close up. Here's the medium shot. Like very normal stuff to keep the television chains moving into. Now this is like an active part of the telling of the story in a much more fascinating way. Yeah, Trisha Helfer is frickin' amazing.

What Rob and I promised each other when we started this miniseries is that we weren't going to do like, this is what it takes to make a good pilot. Like that's not the premise of this. That being said. This is what it takes to make a good pilot? The opening of the miniseries. I was thinking we talked about this a lot. We were talking about Joan Harris giving a tour of the office.

is in Mad Men and that sort of idea of an entry to a world that you haven't been in before. And so, you know, we are watching a character who happens to be a silent, give a tour of the Battlestar and give us the history of it. And as we're going through, you know, Starbucks runs into frame. Adam is practicing his speech. Tye, Chief, Gata, like all like come into I know, Mr. Gata. Shout out Mr. Gata. My favorite connection to Star Trek, a nod to Mr. Data. I love that.

The, like, it's so elegant the way that it is done at the beginning of the miniseries. The way the camera's flowing, the way these very natural lived in relationships are being shown to us. We get that call and response with Starbucks and Adama. We get the information about what the Battlestar is. We get all of this sort of stuff. And then our introduction to Rosalind, which is like via this diagnosis she gets. Like there are all these like, it's a very slick, very, very slick introduction to a world where expository language is wrapped up inside of like premise. And again, that is like in theory what the Joan Harris saw.

And like we like the Mad Men pilot. We're like knocking it forever. But there's a bad version of that. And this is, I think, an even better version than. then what we get inside of Mad Men, which I think Mad Men is often a better show than Battlestar Galactica. But like in this instance, I think Battlestar Galactica leaps over what Mad Men accomplishes in that setup. You know what I mean? I think the highs that you hit in the miniseries emotionally are just unprecedented, maybe strong, but incredibly unusual.

Like, right, that you're trying to introduce all these characters. You're trying to build this world out. You're trying to get people used to what it means to be on the Galactica. for example. And yet by the end of it, you're getting emotional haymakers. And some of that is because of the runtime. Some of that is because of we're talking about basically the annihilation of a species or the near annihilation of it. But two things kind of come to mind on just like a visceral level. There is something to having seen all the buildup of an Earth equivalent planet like decimated and then seeing basically human beings get their first chance to strike back. It's like the first time

that the Galactica or the Starfighters dispatch from the Galactica kind of encounter Sylon ships, the Cylon flip of the switch that deactivates all of the new tech and all of the new starfighters is like there's just something like skin-crawlingly devastating about that idea and like turning, you know, the military into fish in a barrel basically that it's just like really hard to watch and really effective. And I think this is something that they do so well in the miniseries

and that really drives it home, putting a real human face and cost on all the losses. Sometimes it's as simple as like Roslyn meets this little girl, and that little girl is among the people who get left behind. That's some real nasty work, honestly, from the writers. It's real nasty work. But again, this is how you know what show you're watching. And this is how you know. She's just sitting there stroking the yarn hair on her doll.

Painful. And like, obviously, we talked about this with Kobol's gleaming like when Adama says, he's, you know, making this whole, oh, despite any personal, misgivings you might have had. He's wrong, but we love him. So we're kind of swept up the complexity. The way that that is so present throughout the miniseries, like, what does it even mean to have a misgiving if the goal is so clear, move forward? But then also, how could you not have a misgiving literally every step of the way? And I think I love what you guys were both saying about physical space and also how we work our way around the space. And then you think

of something like, okay, I think that realizing they have to use the old. Vipers wearing my Vipers shirt, you know, the Mark twos, and you take something that's literally like a gift shop of museum and you make it your staging ground for the war. How many of the people who were on the Galactica prepping for the decommissioning thought they would ever see combat? There's all of that. But then there's something like, okay, you go into Adama's office, which is one of my favorite sets. His, not just his office, his chambers, his quarters. And it's beautiful, it's rich. And like you think, okay. It's full of noodles. It's full of noodles.

It's full of books. It's two of the most crucial things in life. And like you think, okay, this feels like a place somebody lives. It's a place he's going to be able to then open up to other people and share something, whether it's a rowdy dinner with some reunited family members later in the season or passing a book to Roslyn. But then you think, okay, those are, that's just it. What if that wasn't just someone sharing a book with someone else, but those were all the books? Right?

So like the way that like every space takes on this extra heft and depth because of what people have had ripped away from them. And similarly like when we're poured it into Gaius's mind and we're always back on these like beautiful, resplendent lakefront vistas. Vancouver, baby. Vancouver looks great in the show as it always does. And you think like, okay, space, openness, the expanse of possibility. And then you move into the tight confines of having to work inside of a small arms, you know, or move down down into the shared bathroom elsewhere in the season, but like, Gaias and Gata sharing one of the most memorable conversations

while Gata's just trying to take a shit. Like, this is how you got to make it work for you. You're just all, like, that's just the fleet. There are only so many places to go. So like the way in the miniseries that everything feels so limited. And I love like when we establish the number, the head count, which becomes obviously something we track throughout the series. And it's like, there could be a part of you that's,

said that loud and thought, okay, we got some, we got some people we could protect. And then you're like, that's a baseball stadium? Like, that's pretty small. It's not great. It's not a lot of people. It's rough. I also say inside of the luxury of a three hour mini series, which again, like, every other show wishes they had three hours to a star show world. But like, you've got essentially like standalone episodes inside. Like the sequence where Adama and number two, Call and Keith Rennie's character are, you know, we meet an arm stealer. Adama, like, realizes he's a silemon, but he's still pretending he's not a sileon and they're trapped together in this tunnel. That's an episode, that's an episode of television.

You know what I mean? And it's really juicy and really, really good. And just like, and then they're violent. They're violent and it's like, but it's got great ideas inside of it and so like that. And that's just like something you could see unfolding over the course of an entire hour. And they just, they're just like, that's just one side plot that we're just going to slot inside of all of this. That's the F plot of the miniseries somehow. Exactly. Insane shit.

Leobin. Always great. Okay. Big time spoiler section. Yeah. On the other side of this, Rob's going to give his brief loss takes. So you have to get,

you have to fly through the meteor field that is the major spoilers in Battlestar Galactica. So skip ahead, skip ahead, skip ahead. If you haven't watched. We'll throw that in the timestamps, too. If you want to skip the spoilers. No, we won't. Yeah, we won't. We won't.

Well, we won't. but Donnie will, thankfully. But yeah, so jump ahead to the lost stuff if that's what you're interested in. If you have any interest in watching Battlestar Galactica, please do not listen to this next. Please do not listen to this. All right, that's your warning. Spoiler section, dry off your hands. If you've been washing the dishes and go hit pause on your device, you've been warned,

here we go. Malibin, what have you been keeping a secret as you've been talking about this show? I mean, obviously, like, we're going to keep this to five minutes. There's, like, so much we could say. I think the Cobol's Last Gleaving is massive in terms of a number of different things. Gaius' political career and the role that that ultimately plays in the show, you know, when we talk about like structural innovation, the eventual time jump and lay down your burdens is like one of my favorite moments in television history.

We're building toward that here, obviously. The opera house, the visions, the baby, you know, the fact that one of that that that, that that she is pregnant, that that baby will be born, that that Sharon becomes Athena and that this baby is Hera, the shape of things to come. Obviously, we're setting a key path here on that front. And obviously, the relationship that Hilo maintains there as well. This is a very key episode for that. We didn't talk about Hilo very much. I do love Hilo.

I love, I love Hilo. Absolutely love. A lot of key stuff on the Cobal and Earth, both original Earth and then eventual Earth fronts to hit here. but mostly what I wanted to say is just that Roslyn and Adama ending up together is like the most important thing that has ever happened. And like I just love thinking about like what it's like to be at the beginning of their relationship and then work your way toward that point.

I'm like getting, I'm actually starting to cry unsurprisingly. But like when you, my favorite moment, I have a couple. You guys have both heard me talk about them before. Like obviously at the very end, he's sitting there alone and he's like, like, we built it. I just can't handle it. It's almost unbearable. But when he waits for her, when he's the one who waits, season four episode nine, The Hub, and she returns, missed you, me too. The way that she whispers, I love you to him is like maybe my favorite moment in TV history other than like, I won't spoil Game of Throats for people, but the baby.

feel in Winds of Winter? Like, I just think it is absolutely stunning and gorgeous. And, like, it is like a life lived between these two characters. And we get to such a rewarding, meaningful place with them. And I love how I love being reminded of how often it was really hard for them to find their way to that point. So it's just like the best. And, you know, a trope that is just everyone's favorite in across many, many things. And we've talked about before is this idea of enemies to lovers.

And this idea of extremely well-earned. It's not a like, we fight, we fight, we kiss, be-kiss, like, whatever. It's like a slow burn grudging respect built over decision, decision, decision. At the beginning, the very beginning of all this, when Adama and Roslin are at odds, it's like we're fighting over who is actually in charge her or something like that. And he has stated her, like, you were right about this. Like that is something that he says to her. But then, like, he arrests her by the end of the season.

You know what I mean? It's just sort of like, they're not enemies in the classic sense of the word, but they are at odds and they are at odds until they are not. And then even then they still are. And so that's just so real and human. And Mallory and I talk about this a lot, this idea of like the depth that you can go into with such long form storytelling. You know what I mean? You could just sort of like, and long form storytelling that is a bit more episodic like Battlestar can be where you just have lived. Little moments, little plots, little things that are just sort of build, build, build, build, this other thing. Ron Moore said in the Battlestar Galactica cast episode that I was listening to, he was like, my writers wanted Rosalind Adompton Kiss at the end of season one. And he's like, if we're going to do it, we have to wait. He was like, we got to wait.

We can't do it here. So I love that. Season one would have been crazy. Absolutely bonkers. I mean, when I'm watching season one, I'm like, I can't wait for these two to fuck. But I think this is the, this is a portrait of restraint and why that is often the wiser course. Like, it is just so amazing to watch them work to that point. I like that how you put a Joe, like it's not enemies, but they're, because they're aligned

in their goals, but often at odds. And I think that feels like it's just so consistently interesting to watch. And then the way that that reality between them, that so many other characters are swept up in that, you know, obviously in the episodes we talked about today, Lee and Starbuck and Ty. I was also going to say it. I think it's so funny that they give us a Lee and Starbuck sex scene, fake out sex scene, and then they never give that to us in the show is a crazy move to never give that. Brutal stuff for guys, though, to. Lee.

He deserves it. You know what? Like, he just does add him more. He could take it, you know? I think he's being a... He can't. Clearly. He should.

He should still take it. Joe, you were right to point out that the finale is obviously controversial and a lot of very intense feelings about it. I have a hard time myself, given everything you just laid out, Mal, about Adam and Rosen specifically. When I think of the finale, I think of them two together. Me too. I think of their scenes. Yeah. And how can a show that ends like that not be satisfying?

Like, I get... Yeah, I agree. A warmth of soul from thinking about it. Hold on to those thoughts and feelings as you traverse lost. I implore you. Yeah, I imagine there's going to be some commonality there. But it's like whatever questions I have about like is Starbuck an angel or whatever just like melt away against like the sheer emotional firepower of what Battlestar is capable of. All right.

Anything else we want to say in this big time spoiler section venting of kept secrets moment? I mean, just like in the long arc sense, I think Gaius is one of the great TV characters of all time. I agree. Definitely. It's an absolute dipshit and I hate him most of the time, but I love watching him and I love him on this show. My most delicious like Secret Sylon moment in this rewatch was like, you know,

the show telegraphs the whole like, Sharon you seem fine, like sort of stuff. But also Ty is. kind of fine relative to other people around him and I like actually don't know when they knew who they were making us silent or not. But like, yeah, that was just like, Ellen is the one that I'm like, I don't think they know about Ellen. I think that I think that was a late addition. But that's funny because Ellen is the one who actually has the cover in season one of like, oh, I'll never tell you know, and everyone else. I think that my memory is that Ron Moore has

said before about a couple things, certainly the Final Five, the time jump at the end of to season two, et cetera. Like, a thing that he has said about some of the bold choices of the show is like, I'm paraphrasing, I throw it out in the writer's room and everyone was scared so I knew it was right. Which is great, which is a great approach to television. I don't need them to have known all along. I just don't want to be like, well, they knew here. I'm like, I don't think they knew here, but like it's fun on a rewatch to find it.

Completely. Yeah. Yeah. And I think the Cobal Earth stuff is pretty. satisfying on a rewatch as well. That's like in terms of just the quest of where we're meant to be and where we came from and where we end up. That's that's,

there's, there's a lot of good stuff there here. I also think to like, I mean, we could have talked about this with the main section too, but in terms of the like the disorientation that comes with watching any pilot and you're like, there's so many characters. I'm trying to get used to these places. Having like potential multiples of characters or like trying to track like,

where is Aaron Dorrell exactly? Like all that stuff is really fun within the disorientation of the show. And I feel like Battlestar. plays with the Cylon stuff. I mean, just so well. They just string you along perfectly. All right. Well, that's Battlestar Galactica, and we did it in under 90 minutes,

leaving just a few minutes to spare for Rob Mahoney to give us a lost check-in. So, Rob, I was wondering, I know you watched, you got COVID. I know you watched a lot of lost. I did. I ripped through the first season in like four days. People. Don't tell me what I can't do, Joe. I never would.

You know about the numbers, you know about the hatch, you know, a bunch of stuff. So what I thought we might do is just like a season one chicken. Like I know you've watched a little into season two, but let's just talk up through season one just in a couple minutes. Rob Mahoney and spoilers for season through season one of lost. Rob Mahoney, how's it going? It's going great. Yeah. I mean, to echo something the Mao was just saying about Battlestar, like this is one of the most fully realized and well-balanced ensembles I've ever seen in a TV show.

I care about every single character. Even the ones that I'm a little more annoyed by here and there, I'm happy to report after our first pilot check-in, Jack still sucks. As far as I can tell, we'll probably always suck. Not my favorite character. But I am invested in his daddy issues. I'm invested in his plot lines. There's a lot going on there.

And Joe, I have a question for you of, you know, in terms of your personal origin story, your own personal lost flashback. Are the lost flashback wigs the origin of wigwatch? Oh, certainly Jack's, Bang. Flashback bangs. Those are the worst ones. Those are the worst ones.

Maybe. Maybe. That's where it all came from. Malibin, do you, as a lover of loss, do you have any questions for Rob about his season one journey? I just want to say that I think sometimes we air as people and a collective by treating ourselves to too much of a good thing. This is the inverse of what you were saying at the top.

I'm a little worried about the three of us. Sharing Lost Battlestar and Buffy together. It's a lot happening. How are we going to maintain moving forward? Lost is one of the other. When I say this is one of my three favorite shows, Lost is one of the other top three shows for me. Like I always kind of changed my power ranking of my top 10, I'd say.

But like Lost and Battlestar are always just going to be right near the top no matter what. I mean, these are just two of the, I think, best and most important show it's ever made. And certainly the two that mean the most to me, two of the ones that mean the most to me. Should we just start talking about Friday Night Lights next? I mean, you do not have to twist our audience. I'm ready. I'm ready. I need to know how you're feeling about Sawyer.

That's my big question. He's must-see TV. Honestly, he was from the pilot. Yeah, Rob called it early. He's like, I was completely. Soyer's like kind of barely in the pilot. So I didn't expect you to really clock him. And you're like, you know what?

That guy's Sawyer. I'm like, he shot a polar bear in the pilot. Like, look, there's a lot happening. He is super racist early on. It's okay. He kind of, you know, fades to the background a little bit. two Sawyer things. One, I would say my favorite episode of season one, by far, outlaws, aka Sawyer and Kate, go hunting for the boar. And by the bore, I mean the demons within.

Incredible episode of TV. I actually think that's the best Sawyer ever looks. Like his hair is like perfectly feathered. Not that that's the point, but it is the point. Well, how he maintains the hair is a great question as far as the logistics have lost. Also, the running bit of him calling Jin Chewy is one of my favorite parts of the show. Just, just tremendous. comedy. Now that you've been through season one, do you see what I mean about the pilot, like, swerving a little hard on gin and then having to like really swerve out of that characterization?

I mean, the Jin's son stuff in general. I would say overall season one of lost. I am stuck in the Bermuda triangle of like constant mystery box intrigue. The numbers, the hatch. I have, I have some questions about like season one. finale hatch looked really small. Season 2 premiere hatch looked much bigger. I don't know what happened in the offseason. It seems like they did some renovated. But you're going to make your own kind of music. The mystery box intrigue, the like really fun writing, just like really crackling dialogue on a really

consistent basis. And then just the emotional haymakers of all these people and the Jin's son like slow motion heartbreak backstory stuff that has already been kind of like revised and Rashamond. and like, you know, they're showing all these different angles from it that make it really interesting. But like just when you think you're getting your bearings, you get that. Or you get like the Saeed flashback episodes or you get like, I mean, Walt leaving Vincent with Shannon just fucked me up so bad. When the raft goes out and the raft themes play and the raft theme is just like one of the best things that Michael Giacchino has ever done. But the raft theme plays and Vincent tries to swim out to. the raft to get to waltz?

As a as a human being who is currently for moving related reasons, I don't have my dog here. Are you still don't have your dog? It's impending, incoming. It's, you know, just trying to settle in before the dog gets here. Sure, sure, sure. Very tough to have all this Vincent content and not be able to console my own dog, not to be able to curl up. You know, I feel like I am adrift out on my own personal raft, clinging to a pontoon. I think the scene where you and I have similar Jack takes,

but the scene where Jack and Sawyer are talking about Jack's dad is something I cry about every single time. I think about it every single time I watch it. It's just really good television. Yeah, the lead up to the season one finale overall is just like, again, they've been doling out a lot of really powerful emotional moments and yet there's just more and more in the chamber. And it's impressive how much,

and I think some of this is a virtue of having an ensemble this big and so many characters who can pay off here and there in totally different ways is you can just keep drawing from different places. All of that said, if you had to trim the ensemble, if you had to say goodbye to somebody, I think Boone was the right person. Just saying, if you had to do it, I think he's the right call. They just didn't know what to do with him.

Poor Boone. They did not. But who they did know what to do with, and Joe, you and I talked about this a little bit. I have been consistently impressed and pleasantly surprised at what they do with Kate, a character who I think could just be so bland, cut and dry on other versions of this show. And like, they let her be real messy in ways that I really, really appreciate. Molly Rubin, anything you want to say about John Locke?

I was just going to say, not enough mentions of John Locke. You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. I think that, like, Locke is a character I really love. love and I think just a very rich text, obviously. The season one lock episodes are... I mean, walkabout was really, really special. Walkabout is unbelievable.

I really, I really like DeSX Machina as well. I just, yeah, season one lock is like inspired. I would say for me it's Sawyer, it's John Locke, it's Rose. Those are the three that I'm like, I'm locked in with these three anytime they're on screen. And I mean, of course, I'm enjoying basically the presence of everybody else, give or take, you know, the occasional, like, Jack mope around, but great show. You know what? Turns out loss is really good. How quickly do you think you'll finish? Well, part of the problem is

now that this is a household concern. When I was just a man with COVID, I was ripping through episodes. Now I have to, like, I have to wait. You know, I have to wait to watch in company. And look, the pace is going to be slowed a little bit. But maybe that's for the best. Maybe it's going to parcel it out of a more like healthy interval. We can get some check-ins for the people who want to hear. Totally. I will just say someone we haven't talked about yet who is very important to me is Hurley. One of my favorite characters of all time.

And may we all have disc man batteries that last longer than Hurley's did? And he goes out listening, I believe, to Damien Rice. I think that's the tune that takes him out. And shout out to literally at the moment when I was wondering, is this thing ever going to run out of battery is when it finally ran out of battery. So, you know what? They timed it perfectly. It really did. All right. Well, that has been a season one check-in of loss with Romanoi. That has been a Battlestar check-in, season one Battlestar check-in with Mallor Rubin. Embarrassment of riches. Thank you so much, Mal for coming on the show. We so appreciate you.

Oh, always. We will be back. I don't even want to say what the finale is yet because we haven't scheduled yet, and I'm like worried. Let me say this to you both. Everybody knows. It's I think very, very clear. Well, we'll see. We'll see. It's been very clear from the clues

that you guys have dropped it. I think everybody knows. We'll see. So I just don't want to say it in case something happens. It's Duggy Houser. Finally our

Duggy Houser MD takes will, will come up. We'll be covering task, of course, on this feed. Slow Horses is right around the corner. Very exciting.

Really exciting for that. Excited for that. Thank you to Donnie, each of on this episode. Donnie's the best. And thank you to Malay. Rubin for her guest star appearance. Thank you, Mal.

Thank you to Rob Mahoney. And we'll see you soon. Bye. This episode is brought to you by Netflix's remarkably bright creatures. What if a Pacific octopus held the key to a mystery that could heal your heart? Well, that's Tova's reality. An elderly widow working at an aquarium. Tova forms an unlikely friendship with the cramudgeonly, Marcellus,

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