The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘The Bear’ Season 1 Recap

Episode Date: July 7, 2022

Charles and Joanna share their reactions to the first season of the new FX show ‘The Bear.’ They begin by talking about the show’s overall production and its portrayal of the adrenaline-filled world of chef culture (3:00). Then they pivot to their favorite moments from the season and relay personal anecdotes that connected them emotionally to main characters Sydney and Carmy (26:54). Next, they dissect the performance aspects of the last two episodes, which demonstrate the series’ overall excellence (36:18). They conclude by discussing the use of music in ‘The Bear,’ the state of FX in general, and their favorite food experiences (1:07:39). Hosts: Charles Holmes and Joanna Robinson Producer: Chris Sutton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, guys, Rachel Lindsay here, and I am teaming up with your favorite Ringer podcasters to deliver the Bravo drama and news that you've been craving on morally corrupt. It's the show about all things Bravo, from the Housewise to Summer House and everything in between. We'll be mentioning it all every week. Check it out on Spotify and the Ringer.com. Podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson, and join me now that he has opened every can of tomato in sight. pretty sure. Charles Holmes. Hi, Charles. How are you? Cousin. How you doing? Cousin? Charles and I are here to talk about a shared obsession of ours, which is the FX series The Bear.

And we're so excited to talk about this. It has eight episodes in his first season. They all dropped it once on like, I think June 23rd is when they all dropped. So we're here to talk about the entire season as sort of like a whole package deal. So if you not watched all of the bear, press pause. Go watch the bear. Go try starting the bear and then good luck stopping the bear because it is just you're just going to be like, oh, one more. One more. One more. One more. And then and then they're done. This is the first series I think all year that I've actually done the binge of like I just started watching it and just didn't stop. It was just like one long thing. So yes, you won't be able to stop. It's it's yeah. So the bear, it's like get a lot of attention. It's sort of, I think the way that

Andy Greenwell put it on the watch, breaking through the. The. noise is the bearer. So we're going to talk about all of that. Our impressions of the series, specific episode questions, we'll have some food-related chatter. Before we get into that, I just want to say broadly for the prestige TV feed, there's a couple things going on. Number one, every week, Danny Hyphist, David Schemaker and I are breaking down Westworld. So if you're confused about Westworld, so are we. Come join us in our confusion. And then this is a breaking news announcement that Ben Lindberg and I will officially be back on the feed starting next week to recap the final stretch of better call Saul.

Hell yeah. Westworld, Saul, the bear, TV is good and it is here. Charles and I, of course, are doing a lot of work over on the Ringiverse, talking about the boys and this marvel. Just like, there's a lot going on. There's a lot going on. We're here for all of it. But I'm really glad that we get this moment to press pause and talk about the bear as an entity.

This is a show that kind of came out of nowhere in terms of I don't I didn't see it a lot of people's like most anticipated lists of the year or anything like that It's created by Christopher Storer who is like a comedy guy has worked a lot with like Bo Burnham and drug Carmicle and he did Rami He's worked with Hassan Minaj like all of that sort of stuff and But he doesn't have a ton of I've he has no I've created this TV show credits to his name and so no one was like oh what's the next Christopher Store show? I can't I can't wait to see it. And then Joanna Kalo, who's like the co-EP, she's also a writer-director.

She's worked on, like, hacks and Bojack. But she, like, she makes her directorial debut on the show. Like, there's a lot of fresh talent going on here. So I think people are kind of blindsided by how strong this, this first season is, at least for a lot of us. So I just want to start by asking you, Charles, for, like, overall, like, this is your idea to do a, a nasty TV episode about the bear. So hit me with your best shot Like what are your overall

Takes on the show? As you know Joanna over on the ringerverse Midnight Boys Poo Poo Poo Poo! They call me Coke Baby Chuck The former

biggest hater of the year I was blown away by the bear just by the way it's shot the emotion that it has how immediate it felt and honestly

just the underlying story of it because I think that it probably hit me at the best time. I'm 29, almost about to be 30. And in the spine of the show, being about two young people, Carmian City, who want to do their best, that want to do better, they've been in this abusive field for so long, the journalist

can relate. You're in this field, and when you're young, like the Sydney character, you feel like I want to change this. I can do better. There is a better like version of this world. If only people would listen. Then you have Carmi, who's a little bit older,

who's like, I also want to do better, but life and the bills and everything is crushing me. And to see these two characters want so much and fail and have to kind of climb their way back up to me is something that I just needed in TV. I wanted to see that story because it hit me at that right age where I'm just like,

oh, no, I've been Sydney. And now I feel like I'm Carby where I'm like, oh, like, the people who are like one generation above me, they were good people. They wanted to change things too. And then like the world like smacks you in the face. And it's hard. I don't know. Something about that resonated with me.

What about you? What drew you to the bear? I love that, that sort of middle generation spot where like the younger generation is up and coming behind you and all of a sudden you realize that it's just a cycle, right? You're just sort of cycling through and you're like, oh, I'm in the mid of the cycle. But I was where you were younger people in cycle. Yeah, the bear to me, I mean, I'll watch almost anything on FX because I think they just have such excellent programming tastes over on that network. and I was a huge Jeremy Allen White fan from Shameless. Shameless, a show that I watched probably way too many seasons of.

Good news if people like The Bear and you're like, Jeremy Allen White, who was this guy? I've never seen it before. There's one million episodes of Shameless for you to watch where he's essentially doing a very similar thing. How could you, I had to tap out, I think, at like season one or two. And then when I realized I'm like, oh, there's like 15 seasons. I know, just kept going. That's another Chicago-based show. And I was like, Shameless, which is a remake of a British show.

you know, there were other people on the show, William Macy, Emmy Rossum, who got a lot of attention. But I always thought that Jeremy Allen White plays character, Lip Gallagher was like the absolute core of the show. So when I saw the trailer for this and it's just like really just Jeremy and the poster's like just Jeremy, I was like, oh, hell yeah, they put in front and center. Hell yes. And I started to watch my press screeners for it.

and I couldn't put them down. I was just tearing through them. And I outpaced Chris Ryan, who was like sort of methodically working through his press screeners. And I got to episode seven, which is the one take episode. And I had this moment where sometimes when you're watching, this is unrelatable content, sometimes when you're watching a press screener, you really miss the fact that you can't, like, go look up an interview with someone to be like, tell me the story behind this. You're just sort of like, I'll try to figure it out for myself.

So I finished that episode. I was like, was that really? Did I just watch a one-take episode? Is that what happened? And then I sort of, so I just stopped and re-watched the whole episode. It's short. It's like 27 minutes or something like that. But I was just like, yes, that is what I just watched.

Amazing. This just ratcheted up to another level. So Jeremy brought me in, but the ensemble nature of the show, the writing, the really inhabited world that the show presents to us. I was reading about how they filmed. the pilot on this sort of renowned in this renowned shop

called Mr. Beef on Orleans in Chicago and then they recreated that entirely and made like a working kitchen and unlike a usual set where you have like walls that you can move out to move the camera around it's just like a solid set that is a recreation of this shop in Chicago

so the camera is like in there and cramped with you and I think that like really lends itself to the adrenaline and the tension and you know the cramp feeling of everything. And the other thing I want to say is, like, you dialed in on this relationship between Sydney and Karmie.

And for me, that is, you know, the core of the show. I think most people would say that's the core of the show. And finding out that Joanna callow, I mean, shoutouts to all Joanna's always, I'm always supporting them, but to find out that Joanna worked on hacks, made a lot of sense to me because hacks is a show that I love. And there's a lot

of similarities there in terms of, like, what one generation can show another and vice versa. And also this idea of like, I want to talk to you about like the chef genre in a second, but like hacks about comedians and like there's all this like shitty feelings and insecurity and all this stuff. But ultimately their job is to try to provide pleasure in the form of laughter. They're entertainers. Right. And like a chef's job like this kitchen and many kitchens are dysfunctional and, you know, toxic and all the stuff's going on.

But ultimately their job is to sort of present like nourishment and. joy and pleasure to people. And so I just saw a lot of like strings attaching those two shows that I really liked. I will say this. I was listening to a podcast, top five podcast is the name. And Joetta was saying how she kind of got brought on to this show. And I think her, which Joanna likes is very female-centric shows. Like that's what she's chasing.

So she was laughing. She's like, yeah. So when it came time. for the bear, it was kind of out of my wheelhouse because it's a very testosterone, carmy, richie, the first time you watch the show, my girlfriend's like, should I watch this? Because she came back after a week on vacation. And I'm just like, it's a lot. It is very intense and it is very like, like, agro.

I don't know if it's your speed because even me watching the pilot, I'm like, I'm tapped in. I like this show. But there is this sense of like, I was a waiter at. Applebee's ones, there is that sense of like the cooks were their own community doing weird shit, yelling at each other, yelling at me. And I'm like, I don't like this vibe. I was a hostess at Baker Square. And it's a similar thing.

Like I remember I was 19 and I was so naive. And I go to work at Baker Square, which for folks who don't know, because I don't think it's entirely national is like a Marie calendar, sort of like a pie diner sort of stuff. when I was in college. And the chefs, it's such a thing. And I don't know that anyone has ever captured it as well as this does. And like my naive moment as a 19 year old at Baker Square was these iced teaspoons kept coming through the wash and it was my job to restock the silverware.

And I'm like, but we never put out iced teaspoons or just like longer handled spoons. I'm like, we never put out the iced teaspoons. Why are they always coming through the wash? And someone's like, the line cooks are doing drugs all the time with those spoons. And I was like, oh. Okay. So, yeah, that's something that I learned, you know, when I was a kiddo. But I think the chef genre I wanted to talk to you about because I think it's so interesting.

Like, there's been this idea of this show breaking through. And then I've seen a little bit of backlash to it, which is how you know shows really made it, as well. with people narrowing it on Karmie as this sort of archetype of the kind of white male anti-hero like a Don Draper sort of type of character from a slightly earlier age of television that they, that some people have been saying like, have we not moved beyond this? My pushback on that would be, I don't think Karmie fits in that mold exactly. And I think this show is as interesting, as interested as Mad Men was in exploring a toxic culture, but more interesting than Madman was in undercutting it and slicing through it and finding what's, you know, the fragilities.

That's not a knock on Mad Men, a show I love. But finding the fragilities and finding the lies and the myth of like the lone genius creator type. Like what do you think of the way this show presents the star chef character? So I think the thing that you have to separate, especially when you're watching this, is that Jeremy Allen White, I have such a crush on him. I love the fan cams. Like, he is my boo. I love him.

Yeah. But this is a sexless show. At no point does this show do the madman thing where they're just like with Don Draper though. It's like, Carmen as a character himself knows that he has very little in terms of emotional skills, emotional intelligence. He himself is very much like, I know I'm fucked up. And I don't think the show ever presents him in that way of like, oh, no, you should look up to Carmen. That's something that we do because, like, Jeremy Allen White is a very attractive man and he fits into the, like, the scumbag archetype very well. The Pete Davidson moment that we're having in our culture, the scumbus.

Yes, exactly. Yeah. But to me, the show, the genius of it is it never actually positions Carmi or even Ritchie or Mikey, for that matter, as these heroes. A lot of times it does kind of show that, like, no, they're the problem. And either they don't know it in terms of Richie and Mikey or Carmi does know it, but he's so overwhelmed. He has no idea how to fix it. So that to me, I'm like, it doesn't seem it's not, it's not Sopranos.

It's not madmen. The show never, and I want to give shouts out to Joanna. I think Joanna, someone who's like worked on a show like BoJack or Hacks, is way too smart and has way too long of a resume for even her in the writer's room not to be like, hey, we have to make sure that we're not idealizing karma or Richie. I love that you pointed out that

this is a sexless show. I think it's so interesting because like the number one, beyond like TV critics who were sort of gobbling this up, the number one way that I realized that this broke out before even I saw the fan cams, which I've seen, are like a couple viral tweets that were sort of reworded versions of the same thing,

which is like, I can't watch the show The Bear because I am still in recovery for being in a relationship with guys that look like this, right? You know, like this. Carmi is this like sort of archetype and all these women are like, uh-uh, no, no, you can't fool me. And so what I like that this show sets up, and I'm happy to give Joanna credit for that as to you. Again, I support all Joanna's always, is that Sydney carmi relationship, which has shades of Don Draper. you know, in it. But I think that there's something a little different going on or very different

because like Don will scream that's what the money is for and maybe give you like maybe give Peggy on Mad Men like a little inch. And Carmi will like sit in the back alley with Sydney and like drink water out of a sort of plastic court thing. and just sort of bond about the toxic environment that created both of them and how it's hurt both of them and how a character like the character Joel McHale plays, like that that's the problem. Karmie, part of his arc this season is

he could go that way. And what he's trying to hold on to is, you know, that's where he goes in episode seven. He goes that way. And what he's trying to hold on to is doing it the different way, the way that Sidney believes it should be done as well. I think that's really powerful. I mean, I also will say that part of me I had to interrogate because I was on Karmie's side initially when like Sydney wants to change the restaurant so much.

And Karmie's not like, no, Carmen's very much like, no, you have a point. This is really, really smart. But we just cannot do it right now. Right. And I was just like, oh, no, he's right. Same thing with Marcus. When before he destroys the donut, he's very much like. He goes to comfort Marcus and be like, hey, everybody fucks up in the kitchen.

Like, it's okay. Just make sure it doesn't happen again. I get being inspired. I think the thing that flips in that episode seven is that it's so easy for Karmie to get back into that role of the Joe McHale being like, you guys aren't seeing my vision. I'm going to yell at you until you do. And that's when I had to interrogate. I'm like, wait, why did I, oh, this is the slippery slope of being a boss where it's like,

one minute you could be so comforting and the next, the whole kitchen can turn so abusive. And that's actually what I think the show does well is that Carmen's a great character. It's not black and white. He's not totally a bad boss. He does bad things, but he also means well. It's just that he has these younger people that he does not know how to be a mentor to. And that to me is life. And it's not, it's messy.

And to me, that was fun. Because I was like, wait, why did I ever? Why am I so in love with Carmen? What did he did is reprehensible? No, but to your point, you're watching that, like that episode specifically, but some of the other ones, too, and you're watching Marcus, like, fuck around with the donuts. And you're like, I encourage you to explore your donut side. But can you get the cakes made first? Can you just make the cakes, man?

And as I say, that's the, that's the slippery slope. This tortured chef genre is so interesting to me because, so several years ago when the Bradley Cooper Burt movie came out. Like, that movie came out. And I was like, I have no interest in this movie, right? But then my Gen X boss, like my older Gen X boss at Vanity Fair was like, Joine, I watched the movie on a plane and I cried. And I was like, okay, like, okay, Hogan, like, your older white guy, like tears, okay. And then I watched it on a plane and I cried.

And I was like, oh, no. But there is just something about that sort of like, you know, the, not only the pressure, the natural pressure cooker that is the kitchen environment because you have like literal flames and knives everywhere. There's just like dangerous items everywhere. But then there's also that other element, which is the found family part of it, right? Like how much of the bear, how every episode is like who's doing family dinner is like a question every episode. Every episode who's on family dinner, right?

And for Karmie to come not only out of his own older brother's shadow, right? Because he's always like, despite his, you know, lofty resume was. always in his older brother's shadow. But to come from a place where you've got this character played by Joel McHale, who I love the height difference. Like, Jeremy Allen White is a short thing. And Joel McHale's really tall. So it's just like looming over him.

Like, that's a bad dad environment. And so he comes into this one and he has to be dad. Like, he has to be dad to Sydney. And he has to be dad to Marcus. And he does not have that skill set yet. And his best support is Richie. It's like not a great co-parent. So I don't know.

To use all parts of the found family narrative in the pressure cooker that is a kitchen story, I think is so interesting. Do you have any like chef stories or that you have, is this a genre you enjoy generally, Charles? I mean, Ratatouille is probably my favorite Pixar movie. I think this is a very curse. genre like I like Burke for what it is. Chef is whatever. You know, I'm not immune to Anthony Bourdain or Gordon Ramsey, but I think actually why the bear works is because not to bring up Badman again, but it does, or even Sopranos are all of these things that people might be like, oh, white anti-hero. But the Sopranos works because it's really not about gangsters. Bad Men works because it's not really about advertising. It's about something different. That's just your way in. And I think a lot of movies about chefs, so much focus on like, it's hard being a chef. Oh my gosh, perfection of the food.

And the bear is like, instead, it fills the kitchen with Latinx, black, all of these people who, everyone washes the dishes to making the dessert. So it comes to your point about found family. it's never really about the food. We don't really see that much of the food. Like we see like, oh, they're making pasta now. Oh, like, Sydney's experimenting, but it's always in service of like, no, Marcus cares about the donut because this is about his journey of finding something that he loves, especially

when it seems like before Karmie, he was kind of shoved in the back and forgotten. It's not really about the donut. The donut represents something bigger. So that's why I think the bear anybody can watch it because you're like, oh, no, it's not like top chef where they're competing to have the best dish. These people are trying to like follow their dreams in a place that is designed to crush it beyond recognition, which is relatable, no matter what you do. Well, and I think what's so significant also is that like it's, you know, you've got like Sydney's risotto that she's experimenting with or whatever. But the main dish here is this like beef sandwich.

By the way, I've never been to Chicago. I'm actually going later this month for the first time and I'm really excited to go. But like, so I'm completely unaware of the finer points of the beef sandwich, which is like a local delicacy of Chicago. But I love because like that's such an unglamorous dish. But Karmie wants to perfect it, right? He's like, we can elevate this, but not in a way that like destroys what is at its root, which is like a filling sandwich for like the working man clientele that this shop. serves. And even at the end, when he and Sydney start dreaming about what their new restaurant might be, it's like, we're still going to do sandwiches at the window. Like, we're not going to

not do these sandwiches because this is the core of what this place is. We're just going to hopefully do this other stuff that interests us as well. The fact that the only time we were really like in a like fancy, tweezing herbs sort of presentation of a meal outside of his like horrific flashbacks to working for Joel McHale is when Sydney is serving Marcus in her own kitchen at home. Like that's the most we're in sort of like a, I'm going to do the sauce. I'm going to tweez the herbs. I'm going to do this and that and the other thing. And I think that that is such an interesting. Andy made a really good point in the watch about like when we are brought into various characters lives and like when we learn about Richie's kid, when we go into Sydney's home.

like as we as a circle widens from carmi's life to these other characters as you say who fill out the kitchen um i think it's a really interesting sort of like layering in the ingredients you know of of this dish here i think it works really well i also want to say to your point because i have to chicago love chicago i asked one of my former editors at rolling stone who uh who grew up there i'm like what's what's like a beat sand like what is this sandwich? She's like oh you know like how every city has one like the chop cheese in New York the Philly cheese steak it's just our version and that helps me so much because like Carby's kind of hurt when they get this review back because the reviewer says something to the effect of this is the sandwich is whatever and like to Carmi this sandwich represents his brother

this sandwich is like the last vestige that he has of his brother and he's so tortured trying to perfect something that I started believing by the end of the season. Like, can you perfect this? The beauty of the sandwich maybe is that it is messy, that it is what it is like your brother and you just have to love it. So it was just funny, like this tortured like thing. Like Carrey, you're like, why can't I fix this sandwich? Yeah.

And that's what the show is so genius at in terms of the stakes of what's on the line here, right? Because it's not a good review or it's not. But, you know, necessarily the cash till at the end of the day. It's not paying back the debts. It's not getting the, like, clean bill of health for the restaurant or whatever it is. It's like, can I fix what was broken in my brother that I couldn't even see? Like, that being the core stakes of this and the core unspoken stakes of it, like that the show trusts the audience to understand that that's the demon on his back this whole time is what makes the show so strong. and, you know, to your point earlier about like industries that will crush you and like my,

my perhaps shaky like hacks, bear comparison, what's more subjective of like a product to give to people than food? Like, it's literally a matter of taste, right? And so like we agree like Michelin Award stars to restaurants and we have rating systems for what is the best of whatever. But, you know, if you ask anyone who lives here and we don't have a, by the way, I don't know what's wrong with the Bay Area. We don't have a meat sandwich. We have like burritos is the closest I can give you. And like if you ask someone, what's the best

burrito? Everyone's going to give you a different answer. It's the, it's, it's, it's, it's, a lot talkeria. That's the objectively correct answer. Don't get too spicy on TV coffee. The prestige TV podcast. But you know, that's that's that's the like impossible thing to chase because you're never going to be the best and perfect because it's literally a objective goal. I mean, to talk about the industry that I did, it was very, very funny because I was like, at every single point in my journalism career, I'm like, man, if I just do this thing, if I just become a staff writer, I'll be happy. And then I wasn't. And I was like, if I get a cover story, I'll be happy. If it's perfect, I'll be happy, blah, blah, blah, blah. And the thing about

Carmen that's so relatable is like, you get to this place in your career that you always wanted to be. And then you open the door. You're like, oh, no, like, this is like miserable. Like, I'm, like, everybody around me is miserable. What, is this life? And you just, like, there's something about Carby where you ask yourself in the beginning. And as you learn throughout the season, you're like, oh, no, he wasn't just a good chef. He was one of the best chefs in the country. And he's doing this thing to prove to himself that he was worth his brother's love.

Because it's revealed that his brother pushed him away and didn't want him to work in this restaurant. And that, to me, is so relatable of, Karmie got to the mountaintop. He got there. And everything he saw was cursed. And now he's back where he always wanted to be. And this other thing is cursed. And I'm like, oh, wow, mood, bro.

Yeah. This is really cool. So I'll get personal for a second and say, obviously the ringer, a very, like, prestigious and incredibly glossy, and I'm so excited to be here, a place to work. Obviously, the ringer is not original beef of Chicago land of outlets. But Vanny Fair, where I was before, was my literal dream job from when I was a kid as I wanted to work for Vanity Fair. And like you, I was like, if I get a cover story, I'm very fair.

Then I will be completely whole, complete and happy inside. And then I got it. And I was like, and I'm so grateful that I got to do it. I got, you know, but I was like, oh no, that didn't do it. And the decision to move from VF over to the Ringer is one that I like agnized over only because I was like there was a glossier prestige around Vanity Fair than there is around the Ringer. But what's true is what I get to do here is 100% what I want to be doing. And everyone who is like listen to me on podcasts over here and listen to me over and I love VF. And there's no no shade of VF.

But everyone's like you seem so much happier and so much like more at home with what you're doing. I'm like, yeah, getting to do exactly what I want to do. But to leave that, like, Michelin's, that French laundry life behind, which is what Carmi does to come work, to build his own thing at this shop, is not an easy thing to do. And it's so dumb the things that we cling to because what it forces you to do is to stop wondering, like, is to stop taking other people's ideas of what is the brass ring. what is the mountain top for you?

Yeah. And you have to really search inward and be like, no, what do I actually want? What is, if it's not a very fair cover story, what am I actually chasing and what I actually enjoy doing most? And that's, I don't know, I love, I love talking to you about journalism. It's been quite a, quite a time for journalists. No, I mean, and to your point, when I came here, everybody in like music, writers, every, friends. It was like confusing.

Like my family. They're like, and I'm just like, I don't know. It just feels right. And then they would like see how much like happier I am. Like how much like I'm not miserable. That's nothing against Rolling Stone. It was just like, oh, no, I get to have like intelligent conversations with people that are like my friends and I love them and I'm happy. Like my girlfriend's like, you seem so happy. And I'm just like, yeah, because to car me, I think the thing that's so relatable and most

people can relate to this is like, yeah, sometimes you do just want. to go to a home and have family dinner and like chase something that's like smaller but is more meaningful than the big thing with the awards that actually is just like the bear on your back. The thing you're just like, oh, actually I hate this. Yeah. Actually, Joel McHale's here and he's the worst human life. So I don't want to be here. Okay.

So I've never been to Chicago. You're passingly familiar with Chicago. But there's been this question. I've seen passionate essays in favor and passionate essays against about how, Chicago this Chicago set show is. And so my question to you is not to answer definitively one way or the other because neither of us are Steve Allman, our favorite Chicago in. But like, does it matter to you if a show like this or like say Atlanta, though Atlanta

is globe trotting at this point? But like how much authenticity do you feel like is required for something like this to land with audiences. Can I go into my discourse rant? I love a discourse rant. And this is how I knew the show was a hit, like his second season I knew. Because I'm like, yo, guys, guys, we're having the, is this Chicago enough conversation? That's how bored we are.

Have we not learned anything? All right? I think what we do on our other podcast, I think success and fandoms in general have flattened the way we talk about this shit because people are talking about the bear like it's a Doctor Strange movie or a Thor movie. I'm like, this is a small show that your average person still probably has not seen.

Okay? Donald Glover said it best when he was talking about Atlanta and why they went to Europe. Atlanta is like a feeling. It's a mood. I don't necessarily care if the show is Chicago enough. Because guess what?

It will never be Chicago enough for everyone. It just is impossible. this show isn't even like doesn't feel like a show that has to be the Chicago show is the feeling of the show does it make you feel something does it show Chicago in a light that's loving

if it stumbles along the way cool but we can't keep talking about every show like man these big budget TV shows are destroyed like no this is an FX show like who gives a fuck like this this is exactly I already tweeted this This feels like Ted Lasso season two energy already. It really does.

We're not even talking about Ted Lasso, the show. Like, I don't care if you, like, hate Ted Lasso or love Ted Lasso. We are now talking about the people talking about Ted Lasso. We're now talking about, like, man, you know who loves Ted Lasso? This type of person. I'm like, can we talk about the show? Do you like the show or dislike the show? Let's talk about the episodes.

Did you like episode seven or did you feel like they were jacking off? Like, let's talk about that. I want to have that conversation. I don't want to have the conversation. like this cooking show like whoever in their life would go from a Michelin Star to try to go make some beef sandwiches. I'm like, I don't know. In TV land, people like, relax.

This is why we can't have good things. In the spirit of that, let's talk about episode seven. So this is the, this is the, I get, I do. I get really irritated sometimes with like, almost like a backlash. I'm falling into the trap. I'm talking about the discourse, but like, there's some, there's, so there. There is genuine critique.

Yes. You and I both agree every single thing deserves genuine critique. It is how you, Charles and I, Joanna, show our love for something. We were like, this rises to the level of, you know, it deserves to be held to a standard, right? And Ben Lindbergh, our colleague, wrote a great piece about the Obi-1-Kon-Kon-Kon-Kon-Kon-Nobey show in this same vein. and then Charles and I get flak sometimes for holding like comic shows or whatever to any kind of standard. There's critique. And then there's like showboat backlash.

It feels cool to knock the thing that people are liking. And again, to your point, we're not talking about the biggest blockbuster in the land. We're talking about a niche FX show that most people, to your point, will not have seen yet. Have you heard about the bear? Like, I don't know if, like, my regular friends who do not keep up with, like, prestige TV. Yeah. Even know that there is a backlash to the bear yet because the bear has not reached them. So everybody being like, here everybody goes again, championing this big ass show.

This is what's wrong with Hollywood. I'm like, guys, the bear is the least of our concerns. Like, if y'all hate the show, I actually, like, I had a really, really great time chatting with Alice. Herman on Theringer.com because she didn't like the show. And we were talking about the show and everything she was bringing up, I was just like, oh, no, this is like, this is actually, there's truth in this. I can get why someone who would dislike this show, but she was talking about the show. We weren't having a long diatribe about like, man, look at these annoying ass people who

ain't from Chicago talking about the Chicago show. That's something I love about Allison is like, whenever I disagree with her, she always has like really, really good points. Salient points, yeah. let's talk about episode seven so it opens with like to the people who are wondering the chicago enough shots of chicago we get a syphion stevens the chicago son syphi and stevens song um and then we're in the kitchen and we're in the kitchen for the run of the episode it is a one shot episode they shot it like uh jeremy ellen might talk to chris ryan on the watch podcast and he said they shot it five times all the way through they would like took them like 27 whatever minutes to do it and then then they would reset it and do it again. So they shot it five times all they through. It's basically like doing a little play, right, a little one act.

And in the vein of showboating, I am in a point in my life where like, True Detective Season 1, I remember we all got really excited. There's like a really long oneer in that in that season. Everyone got really excited about that. And everyone's like, oh, oh, Carrie Fukenaga. Oh, my God, what are you doing to us? This is incredible. And then ever since that, I've been a little wary of a one.

one shot that feels like someone, again, just like showboating like in Stranger Things, volume one, there's a long shot that I'm just like, this just felt like Sean Levy, like, deciding to show off. That is not how I feel about this episode at all because I feel like that the relentless, this is the breaking point for the family, right? So many people break in this episode. And Richie gets literally stabbed. Oh, so much. And then that's just not even like the bit. Like, Ritchie getting stabbed is like less important than a donut being like knocked to the ground. Don't talk to you about the donut.

I'm still recovering. And so, but the relentless printing of the printer and just how it's just go, go, go, again, in this cramped set where they don't have walls they can move so that they can move the camera around. The camera's just in there. Everyone has to be choreographed perfectly and hitting all of their marks at exactly the the right time. It's a long 27-minute dance. It just enhances this, you know, explosive moment in the arc of the show. And it's one of the best things I've ever seen. Charles Holmes, hit me with your episode seven hot takes. I have no hot takes. All my takes are realtor. This episode does the thing. I could, I could do the Coke baby Chuck thing like, actually, y'all, it ain't episode

seven that's the best but no I think what's genius about it is to your point if you were like oh yo you got to check the show out that got this awesome episode that got a one take shot the whole time it's like a play I'd be like yo I'm gonna keep it real with you as my as my brother says I'm not doing that smart that smart people art shit today like I'm like that's that would be my thing but when I watch the episode what's genius about it is like the one take perfectly encapsulates that emotion of what it feels like to be in a kitchen when you're drowning. Like I've been, when I was at Applebee, there's no beef of Chicago land. But there were nights almost every single week it would happen.

Mostly on like Friday or Saturday, where everyone from the waiters to the hostess to the kitchen to the bar are drowning. And you can feel it. It is like you could cut the tension with a night. everyone's fucking up, plates are dropping, like everyone's yelling at everyone. And what the one take does is when you're in that, when you're in a kitchen, when that happens, when everyone's behind, it feels endless. It feels like you cannot escape. It's like a maze where you're like, I just need to get out.

I just need to get out. If I can get this one thing, if I can just do this one thing. And you're just like, oh, if the chef will just give me the thing that I need. And the chef is yelling and like, no, I'm backed up. Like, no, you don't understand. and I'm being yelled at, but the one take perfectly encapsulate that, that feeling of chaos and that feeling of helplessness. And that's why I don't dig at points of being like, oh, you're doing the director thing

where the director's like, now let me, let me cook. I want to show off really quickly. Right, right. So when you watch it, the direction is marrying with the performances, is marrying with the dialogue. It's also like a symphony to your point of like, you're hearing these sounds of like the printer. And, like, car me screaming, I need, I, like, he's like, I need a sharpie. He's throwing the sharpie. And, like, everything is working together to make this great piece.

So I'm going to be honest. I don't know how you could hate episode seven. And it's not one of those things where you're like, you tell a friend, like, it doesn't get good to episode seven. I'm like, no. No. Actually, what happens is by the time you get to episode seven, like, oh, this show was doing the thing where it taught me how to view it.

It slowly got me into the. this pressure cooker. So by the time, everything explodes, I'm like, oh, I know I exploded. I was waiting for this thing to happen. I will, yes, and your Applebee's rush. The rush for Baker's Square was a Sunday morning rush, Sunday, like Sunday, I think post-church pie, I guess was a thing. I don't know. I'm an atheist, so I don't know. But like, I'm sure there are other industries like this. But it's, I'm hard pressed to think of, and I've had a lot of jobs, but I'm hard present thing of an industry where like it is so much like a dance where everyone needs to be hitting their marks and because like if you don't you run you're running into each other

maybe with a knife in your hand like everyone needs to know their steps do their steps bodies are moving in and out you're shuffling people in and out uh you can't drop the busing tray you can't spill the drink you can't do you know and it's just like this constant move move move no breaks just go go and like the anxiety the flashback anxiety I felt watching this episode. It was like, I was like, oh, pie related PTSD. I did not know I had you. Can I ask you as this is both as critics.

There's a meta aspect of this episode where sometimes as a critic, I love something that's small. I don't write about it and I put it out in the world. Yeah. And I'm just like, oh, this review. whether it's good or it's bad has repercussions beyond me. Where it's like even if you have a glowing review, sometimes the artist behind it is like,

I don't want to be here. I don't want, I didn't actually want this and I can't control it. Or the bad review, you're like, I'm going to put the scale in a review. And then you're like, oh,

there's a person on the end of this. And that doesn't mean that I'm not going to write it. But this, like as a critic, I was just like, oh, this guy thought he was probably doing something really, really good. And actually, it's the tipping point that is going to destroy in this moment a bunch of lives that were like, we didn't eat this. The way that the episode starts with, like, Abraham reading the review and not stopping despite the fact that Karmie's like, stop, please. And Sidney's like, stop.

To your point, and reading it as if like this is just a holy, like a pure uncomplicated good thing. We got a good review. Let's talk about it. And we are in the moment trying to catch up because we don't have the full context, right? Of, like, Sydney putting the risotto out that she was just testing and she just brought it to the guy. And, like, then no one believes her that she didn't know he was a critic and all the sort of stuff like that. But we're running to keep up with why are people pissed about this glowing review? Why is Carmie pissed?

Jeremy Allen White's performance where he's just, like, clenched like a fist. from the beginning. He's so wound up about this review. And there's this great quote from the show. I can't remember if it was from that episode. I think it was. But he says this thing where he was like, he's talking to Richie. And he's like, what is it called when like you're afraid of something good happening

because then you're afraid of something bad happening too? And Richie's just like life. But I think that that pressure of a good review, right? And like whether or not he's pissed that like, Sydney's dish is getting highlighted. I don't think that's even the point. I think the point is the pressure of a glowing review and the attention that it might bring. And am I ready?

Am I ready? Is my project ready for this level of scrutiny? Do I need more time here in the kitchen to perfect everything? And that's Rattitooie, not my favorite Pixar movie, but the way in which Rattitooie makes us think about critics. And the way that Rattitooie makes us think about... creating food as an art form and the anxiety of the artist is a really powerful thing to think about when you're thinking about Karmie, the artist, and the anxiety and imposter syndrome and whatever else he's feeling in this moment.

I also want to ask you this. Yeah. The relationship between Karmie and Sydney where I've had that mentor-menti relationship where like Sydney wants this dish out in the world and Karmie knows it's not ready. And Kami admits like, yo, this is delicious, but it's not ready. Where I didn't take that as Karmie is jealous of Sydney. Karmie's actually trying to protect her being like, hey, like, it can be better. And I've had that moment in my life with mentors where I'm like, I want this piece out in the world.

I want this assignment. I want this. And then be like, yo, like soon. just soon. And they're not really telling you when. And that built up where I felt for city where it's like Sydney doesn't need protecting, but also she's entering in this relationship of if you want to learn from Karmie. Because it's revealed that when Sydney, which was a brilliant scene, Sydney realized like when she went to school, she felt out of place because she didn't know all of these touchstones of chefs and where to eat. So she goes to New York. And the best meal she has was

prepared by Karmie. This is why she wants to learn from him. Yeah. That speaks to what it is to have a mentor of like, there's this person that has knowledge that I want and they believe in me, but they're not spelling it out. And the fact that they're not spelling it out is making me more impatient and more mad. And being on both sides of that coin, I'm like, oh, no, I feel for Karmie, but I also feel for Sib. No one was really wrong in this situation. It just kind of blew out of control. And Karmie is wrong when he starts yelling and he destroys Marcus's donut. But everything before that, I'm just like, oh, no, this is what it is to be a mentor and a mentee who cannot bridge that gap. I would say Sidney was wrong when she stabbed Richie. Well, maybe not entirely wrong.

Oh, to be clear, to be clear, though. Sydney, my girl, I wrote this in, I wrote this kind of in my back and forth with Allison. What I love about Sydney is like that I've seen it happen. That is what it is to be like a black woman, one of the rare black women in a field, know that you are competent and you can do better. We see it throughout, like, Richie's about to pull out a gun and be like, I'm about to handle this. And Sydney's like,

I got, like, it's already done. Like, we did it without violence. So you're seeing throughout this whole season that Sydney can do more. Yeah. So like,

yes, should she not have been waving the knife in front of Richie? No, yeah, put the knife down. But also I'm like, Richie has been verbally abusing. Oh, yeah.

woman all season. So at that moment, I'm like, oh, no, of course this is her breaking point. Of course Sydney's like, enough. I can't do this. To make another Stranger Things comp in volume one of this latest season of Stranger Things 11 bashes a chick in the face of the roller's gate. And I'm like, you know what? I'm on your side. And I am, I am on Sydney's side here, especially since like the stabbing was like no big deal to Richie. He's like, no problem. What is, what is my man back to? He was like, dog, that was so cool. You just fucked it off. I want to go back to journalism for a second. So Evan Moss Bachrack, who plays Ritchie, who's so good in the show and was really,

really good in The Dropout, a show that I really loved. He was fantastic to that. He's having a great year. But the reason that I love, his part in that story was the Wall Street Journalism part of the story. And it's really fun to watch as a journalist. And he has this great editor played by Lisa Gay Hamilton. And her job is to be like, you don't have it yet. You don't have the story yet.

You don't have it. And I have been there with you where I'm like, I have it. And your editor's like, you don't have it. And the frustration you feel because you're like, don't tell me what I don't have. I have it. And they are, you know, almost always right. Almost always right. But almost always are right.

And the editor is there. I think immature writers feel like editors are there to like stifle them and stymie them. Editors are there to protect you. And editors are there to, you know, make you better. and I love thinking about Karmie as like an editor for Sydney here. I love that. I mean, and to be clear, like, I, it took me so long to realize this. And it breaks my heart because a lot of journalism students who came under me,

I'm realizing like, oh, the system that I came in is already gone. And it's only been like five years where it's like, I didn't realize until, you know, getting drinks with editors after. I'm like, oh, no, they were the ones getting in fights. If like something blew up, it never got back. to me. They're the people who have to like bear the brunt of that. And I also think that's what Karmie is trying to do with Sydney is like you can't put the genie back in the bottle. The world will only be able to taste this dish once. I'm trying to like when you do it,

I want it to be ready so it can be a win across the board. Because the whole time Karmie's like, have you thought about how you're going to do it this way? How can it be if people want it to be delivered? How is it going to be like this? He's doing the things that an editor will do is like, to your point, you don't have it yet. You haven't thought of this angle, this angle, this angle, and I've been sitting where I'm like, fuck your angle, put my head right now. Oh, this is Joanna.

This is why I love talking. I mean, it just reminds, like, people on the outside of, and we'll stop talking about journalism and start talking about the bear again in a second. But like the thing that people don't realize outside of journalism is like, this happens a lot when like you, when you're talking about like a huge story where it's like, this happened a lot in the, in the height of the Me Too movement where, like, stories would break about like these various bad actors. And like some of those stories, you would hear like, oh, I hear they have a story on Brian Singer, but the Atlantic doesn't want

to print it. And the, on the outside, the, the idea is, oh, they're scared to print it. And I'm like, sometimes you don't have the sources yet. Sometimes you need legally and whatever, you need to have all of your fucking ducks in a row so that your story can stand up and be unimpeachable. So, so let's talk about episode eight of the bear. enough journalism. The listeners are like, guys, can you please do this after the bear?

Can you talk about beef sandwiches, please? All right. So Jeremy Allen White, we've already given plenty of laurels too. We've already talked about how hot we think he is. By the way, some of those tattoos are real.

Some of them are not, but he has some. I actually want to go back now and be like, real fake. Yeah, someone please do an anatomy breakdown of the, of the, carmi tattoos.

There is a seven-minute speech that Jeremy Allen White gives at the AA meeting in the finale, which is not shot all in one take, but a lot of it is this like extreme close-up on him. And I was reading this really interesting interview that Woody Freedlander did over at Vanity Fair

about that speech and about the way in which they recalibrated the season because I was wondering, if I were to point out one sort of weakness at all of the bear, it would be kind of Abby Elliott's character, Sugar, his sister, who feels way more peripheral

than a character I would expect played by Abby Elliott. Like, I expected that character to be much more in the mix than she ultimately is. And so what I found out reading this article is that they had a lot more of the home stuff of the family stuff for Kami and his family, and they cut it out.

So that we, the audience, could go on this journey with Karmi so that when he has decided, he wants to confront all this stuff about his brother in this speech and the finale. We're learning a lot of this stuff for the first time, like, along with him confronting some of these things for the first time. And I think that was a really smart move. I thought the speech was, like, astonishingly well delivered. And even if there's, like, a little bit, like, Chris was saying I was glad he was

glad there was no like checkoffs whatever and I'm like I don't know the letter rip thing is like a little Jacobean like in it's dropped here and then it's in the note um but it all works because Jeremy uh pulls it off so well um how did that speech hit you coming off especially coming off right off the back of episode seven I think I like the speech way more after like in the beginning I'm like all right I get it my man got a cook he has to get his you know I so play in, but after you get the reveal of the sauce cans with money, I'm like, okay, it works. But what I will say is kind of brilliant about that seven-minute AA means speech, is that it gets to this feeling, because I've had in my personal life,

with people who are struggling with addiction, where there is that guilt of like, wait, how did I know? Wait, how did they hide it? And that is such a, it's such a hurtful emotion. because you start questioning if you could have been a better loved one. Like was I only thinking of myself? Was I, and they teach him like, don't think that way. But I think there is this,

Carmis is talking his way through it. It's cathartic in a way because not only is he realizing things about his brother, he's finally getting through that stage of like, this is how I talk about my emotions of his goal. And that to me was the best thing about that. that scene. It's like for the entire season you're like, can this white man please just talk about his

feelings? Like you're not going to die. It is fine, bro. It's fine, man. Feel, feel them all. Throw on some Drake. You'll survive. So to see him in that cathartic state finally be able to come to grips with this big death

and like, I'm going to be honest, fuck this show. Because having it be John Bernthall, that reveal is just like, oh man, I would feel the same way if John Bernthal was my brother. What is your, what is your closest connection to John Bernthel? Where, like, what does he mean to you? I mean, I've watched him on a bunch of stuff.

He's great in it. But like, I'm not going to lie, like, all of the viral videos of him just being like sexy, but he doesn't know it. Like him being like on Hot On. I was going to say it's for me too. Yes. Yeah, it was just the moment where I'm like, oh, no, like I get it. Like, Burnthal.

you are a great actor, but also you just like, you just seem like a dude, like a guy. I love me. Yeah. No, like I, I like never really got John Burr-I'm not a Punisher fan and like I wasn't a walking dead fan very much. And, uh, uh, so I like didn't get the John Bernthel thing. And then I saw the Hot On On On On On Ones, talk about, if you're listening, you haven't watched John Berthal on Hot On Hot Ones talk about how like toxic masculinity hurts men too.

Please go watch it. It's freaking great for someone. It's Charles and Joanna, of course. I'm glad that we both. That was a moment where I'm like, Bertho, maybe a critical reevaluation is needed. 100%.

100%. So everything comes full circle with the sauce cans and like, it's the simplest recipe, right? It's so easy. If it's on a note card, it's a thing that Karmie, like, couldn't bring himself. Like, he's making the beef sandwiches,

but he would not deign to do the sauce. Like, he's not going to do the sauce. And he does it and in doing so, he's rewarded. And all of that comes full circle. But I actually wanted to go back. to the beginning of the show, which starts with this, like, dream sequence of a bear in a cage and a sort of, like, abandoned street of Chicago where they filmed it in location. Is this Chicago enough for you?

Um, and so we see Karmie, like, approached this bear. I guess it apparently was like a stunt man with the bear head on, but like a bear in a cage. And it's the most surreal moment of the show. The show doesn't really go back to surreal territory after that. Um, something that I didn't didn't notice, but I was reading this Jeremy Ellen White interview where he was talking about how later, like he wasn't in the first few cuts, but in a later version of the cut, they add this audio, which is the sound of a burner trying to catch fire. And I'm just like, the sound of a burner trying to catch fire, like we've all had that where it's just like not catching. And so you hear the hiss of gas and there's like a danger to it, right? Because like,

if you just keep the gas going, like, that's not great. And the like the snap sound. of like the flame trying to catch. And isn't that isn't that just car me this whole season? Like someone just spewing gas trying to catch fire this whole season. But like what is that?

What did that bear sequence? I don't know. Give me, go go full like brainiac Charles Holmes on me and tell me like what does that dream sequence mean to you? So I was very much like fuck that dream sequence in the beginning because I didn't. I was like it's going to make sense.

We're like, come on guys. everybody's doing this a realist thing. But I loved it in retrospect because the bear, even the title of that is like it has so many it is Carmi's name.

We know that there is like Carmi is this character where there's like this sizzling misery but it's very inert. He's a character that like I said he's sexless. There's nothing sometimes he almost seems

harmless in a way where it's like he can't even feel enough emotions to get angry. So the entire season, they're like, when is he going to explode? And that to me is I'm like, oh, a character named bear having the layer of a bear inside of him that he will not let out, this ambition that at one point in like he did let out and it almost destroyed him. Like he was the bear back when he was working at Joel McCill's restaurant. And he's put it inside that layer, the other layer of the bear being a restaurant,

he always wanted to open this dream that his brother had with him. And this thing of like, not only can he not let out his aggression because he's afraid of turning into Joe McHale, he quite literally can't let the bear out because he wants to save his family restaurant. Like the bear is hidden with, it's a drawing that he has in the restaurant that he looks at in the bathroom, where it's like, I can't let the bear out of the beef of Chicago land,

Because to do that would leave, would like make it seem like my brother is truly gone. I'm like, oh, that works on so many layers where I was like, at the end, I was like, all right, y'all got. Okay, drag sequence. You can stay. You can stay. All right. Before we wrap up here, I have to ask you, Charles Homes' former Rolling Stone journalist extraordinaire, talk to me about some of the needle drops in this in the scene of television. All right.

So I'm going to be honest. I was like once the Sufjohn Stevens drop happened with Chicago I'm like all right here's the thing too easy I liked it but like I will never forget when Childish Gambino was worse at rapping than he who currently is when he's like the only black kid at a coupon concert

and I was just like bro relax and like every single time that needle drop happened I'm like am I the black kid at this concert which is called the bear like do I think I'm special like the needle drops are great radio and everything but there was

all right if I could be a hater I haven't been a hater you are allowed to be a hater let the bear out of the cage inside of you the true hater bear there was a little bit of like the baby driver feel

where it's like film bro being like yeah if I ever have a chance to make a movie These are all the songs that I'm going to drop in it. You know, I'm going to have Radiohead in it. I'm going to have Sufjohn Stevens, Chicago and that shit. It's going to be dope as fuck, bro.

And all your other bros are like, yo, totally, man, totally. Every single needle drop. I was like, I get this needle drop. It's dope, but it's definitely film, bro, had this vision of music he's going to put in his first TV show. This is the Charles I remember. Follow up question for you then. Okay.

what would you put in season two of the bear music wise needle drop wise yeah chief keef little dirk king louis bunch of drill music this is why they are hiring me i'm like hey y all want some polo g also this is follow question yeah did you have any uh any relationship to lie in a voice from where did you know him from before he was marcus uh i don't what should i know him from oh no Wanda, you're not a Tyler, the creator, odd future fan? What if I'm not? These are, I'm just saying words that you right now. You're like, what does this happen?

You are. I know, I understand the words. I just can't like put them at a sentence, but I understand them. Lionel is what we would call. And like, I love what Lionel does. Like, Marcus is one of my favorite characters. I want to give, I want to give Marcus the world when Carmi, destroyed his donut. I was almost about to destroy

Karmie. I'm like, don't you dare touch Marcus. He's like a little crush on Sydney. Oh, geez. Melted. But where I know Lionel from is like, there was odd future and there was Tyler the creator. And they had like a show on Adult Swim called Loiter Squad. And

Lionel was one of the people doing the skits. And Lionel was always a person in the odd feature crew where I'm like, you don't rap and don't produce and you're not a DJ, you're just one of Tyler the creator's friends. So like he would be in a bunch of sketches on like, adult swim. And I'm like, cool, he's funny. And then just to see him appear in this and I'm like, he had this in him. Yeah. Like this is like, this is like if Memphis Bleak, Jay, you probably like, who's Memphis? This is like if Memphis Bleak was like Morgan Freeman. I was just like, you had this in you the whole time, Bleak? Bleak, it would be one.

hit away his whole career. Sorry. No, no, but like, what's, what is interesting, I think, we didn't talk about this, but I, but I have been curious. This is technically a comedy, right? And it's technically a comedy because it's a 30 minute-ish show. Like, that's really why it's a comedy. That's all that distinguishes it from. And then we've had this conversation about hacks or BoJack or a number of other

comedies where you're like, is this a comedy? Like, oh my God. But because I think Chris Dorr comes from. from the world of comedy, he puts people like Lionel or Aoply Sidney, like, she's a comedian. Like, he puts these comedians in here. And then he's not like, all right, hit me with your best jokes. It's like, you're going to do drama. And sometimes you're going to be funny when you do it.

You know what I mean? Like Evan, Evan's cooking with the comedy, right? And like, Neil Fack, your boy is like the most obvious comic relief that didn't always work for me in every single second. He did not work for me in every. Like there was a few when I was just like, oh, it's cooking. And then there were a few where I was like, no, no, no. So he was like an EP on the show and he was like one of their cooking consultants because he's a chef. And so I was like, that makes more sense to me why like some of this stuff stayed in, honestly.

But it's part of, you know, going back to Fleabag. And before that, where it's like all these comedies, you're like, are you a comedy? I don't, I don't know. And I don't need to be a stickler about what is a comedy and what isn't or what is TV. what is film. I don't really care that much about those things. But like when it comes to Emmy's time, which isn't the only metric we should use for anything, but I feel like shows like hacks and even Ted Lasso, like a simple, like modern family's never going to win the Emmy for best comedy again, nor should it have ever, I think. But like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

I just did a modern family rewatch. I love modern family. Shots fired at. Modern Family. But like the 30 minute sitcom network sitcom has just been elbowed out by this more quote unquote elevated comedy if that's what you want to call it and I don't know like I don't I'm not mad about it I'm just sort of like

we still need comedies though like we got added elementary cooking rights like here's the thing whatever it's like is it a comedy or not oh no am I veering into discourse territory? You're veering into discourse territory save me Charles thank you

as someone who's like wants to cook a little bit more in the TV landscape, get these hot takes off in the prestige lane, I'm going to be honest. Would y'all rather have dramas that are 60 minutes or comedy dramas that are 30?

Because I, Barry cooking. Okay. 30 minutes? Like there's a 60 minute version that is just a drama that I'm like, keep it.

Please just keep it. There is a 60 minute version of the bear where I'm just like, no thank you absolutely not I'll catch y'all later where I'm just like hey if this is how we can get very short distilled

work that feels immediate and does not feel like masturbatory I want that like I like I'm cool if it's like less funny because I'm like hey ABC is always going to green light shit there's always going to be some box shit that nobody talks about it's cool I'm a sitcom junkie I'm here for the third we should just start calling

them 30 minute dramas because I'm just like, that's what it is, but nobody wants to, like, pull the trigger. And I'm like, no, we're doing 30-minute dramas. Everybody, it's cool. We're just doing them. The categories of the Emmy should be best hour-long program, best 30-minute program.

Yeah. That's like, or long-form, short-form or something like that. I think, yeah, it makes no sense to sort of bucket the things. Like, succession, which is an hour-long drama, is one of the funniest to me. It's like an hour-long comedy. It's like, at this point, it's, they all do the same thing. It's fine.

Give me more 30 minute dramas, guys. I love you. All right. So I've been watching The Old Man. You and Van did this great round of prestige episodes on Atlanta. We've got the bear. Reservation dogs. Reservation dogs.

What we do in the shadows. Like, let's talk about FX, which has always been one of the best networks going. I was a little, and I talked about this when I talked to Bill and Sean about the old man, but I was a little worried when FX got snapped up by Disney as part of the Fox deal and then sort of like slightly absorbed into

Hulu in a way that is a little confusing because sometimes it's FX on Hulu and sometimes it's FX only and sometimes it's Hulu and you're not quite sure what's going on. I was worried that John Landgraf and sort of the empire that he built at FX would start to crumble. But like, I mean, bang for your buck. Talk to me about FX, Charles. I, they're on a role. Even shows that on a moment. I'm like, when everybody's like the old man, I'm like, fuck this show, put on the first episode. I'm like, oh shit, we hear.

This is fire. Like it's reservation dogs. It was kind of similar to the bear, a show that didn't really know much about just turned on after like listening to the watching. Like, all right, cool. Like, what is this? Blowing away. Where I think FX is kind of doing this thing where I think HBO, big game hunting in a way that

sometimes I'm like, okay, sure. Like, you guys got game authority. Thrones, now you are at a point where it's like, you want another one. Whereas, like, FX seems kind of happy just being like, here's a little show. Like, here's a little almost push. Here's a little thing for you to enjoy. And I'm just like, oh, what is this present? It's Christmas.

What is this content present? Oh, I didn't expect it. That's what I'm watching FX shows are because like, even the X-FX shows, I'm like, okay, cool. And I'm just like, I'm still happy I had it. Like, I'm still happy that you, like, put it up on a plate for me. to eat. I love it. To your point about small scale, I think FX is not feeling the

pressure to, even though they have their FX and their FX on Hulu and it's kind of whatever, I don't think they're feeling the pressure that a lot of other streamers are feeling to just flood the gates with content. I think HBO is slightly diluting its brand right now because there's like the HBO stuff and the HBO Mac stuff, but the average

consumer doesn't know the difference between what's an HBO Mac show and what's because most people are just watching it on a device or an app or some kind, right? So I'm not, there's a lot of HBO Max stuff I love. Hax is an HBO Max show. It's not a, it's not a, it's not like everything on HBO Max is bad, but they're throwing a lot at the wall on H2MX to see what sticks. And so, just because something is on the HBO platform does not have the same level of guaranteed quality that when HBO was just doing like three shows on a Sunday, it always did, you know? And, um, but FX hasn't hasn't massively ramped up its output. And so everything still feels like perfectly bespoke. and carefully curated.

And again, to your point earlier, about the bear not being, like, they might not be the biggest shows ever. You know, like, FX had like the shield and justified, but like,

FX has never had like a huge, huge, huge, huge, too, shows of Anarchy, maybe. That was,

that was a really big show. That is still, like, love sons of anarchy for like a couple seasons. A couple seasons. But like, that doesn't seem like,

that wasn't world conquering in the way that, like, they haven't had a walking dead. Right. Exactly. They haven't had breaking bad the way that AMC had, right? Like, they haven't had that.

But what they have had is just this, like, rich vein of gold going all the way through. The Americans never broke huge. But, like, anyone who talks about the Americans is like, wow, that piece of work. Or even like Atlanta. Atlanta gives them so much prestige in a way where it's like, forgive them for having Dave. Yeah, catching completely unnecessary straight.

It does have its always sunny, which is the longest running live action comedy of all time. So that's, that's a thing that FX has. But it's, uh, yeah, I mean, FX. What a, what a, what a, what a, what a network? Great. What a quality place to make your television show. Um, the last thing I want to ask you before we wrap up, Charles Holmes, what's the best meal you've ever had? All right. So this is terrible because like, I eat like a bear. They're like, I've had great meals. I cannot remember them. So I'm going to give you when I went to Chicago, Chicago is like really weird about its pizza, which I admire. I went to a place called Pequod's. Pequot's pizza.

Killing it. The pizza I had, Deep Dish. Hey, killing it. Deep Dish. I'm saying this is someone who grew up on the East Coast. Deep Dish is better than what we got over here. I'm going to be honest with y'all. You're about to get kicked out of the entire state of New York.

Yo, bite me. I'm living in Brooklyn right now. The state of New York. pizza is in the garbage. Okay? Like, come on. Like, we need to step it up. Pequots. Ooh, they do a nice slice. What about you, Joanna? So I worked in bookstores for a really long time. And I also, like, worked at

bookstores up in, like, the Sonoma County, Napa area, which means I did a lot of events with chefs and their cookbooks, which means I have gotten to eat, not paying a single dime because I was working at, like, all of Thomas Keller's restaurants and all, like, all those places because I was just working. And they treat you like garbage, but then you get to eat well at the other night. So you're there. You're the bookseller. Everyone treats you like trash.

Did they call your cousin? That sounds more affectionate than the way these people would treat a bookseller. So my answer is going to be like really basic and bougie, but trust me that I did not pay for this meal. I worked the like anniversary French laundry event where they just like closed down the restaurant and like Francis Fort Coppola was there. And my friend and I were just like sneaking little pots of caviar and like what I like. It's by far the most insane, like decadent thing I've ever experienced in my life. But, um, I'm talking about deep tissue over here talking about like, yo, this is like, I have caviar.

Like, it was the worst. This is like, this is like when the other day I was talking to Mallory on the ring of verse. I swear, we're almost done. But I was talking to Mallory on the ringerverse about something. And I was like, oh, it's like when you're in Italy and you're trying to eat gelato and it's like running down your arm because it's so hot. And someone on Twitter's like, Joanna searches for a relatable and Doda comes up with gelato in Italy.

So that's me. Twitter relatable Robinson here reporting for duty at the end of this episode of the Presti TV podcast. Thank you to Charles for asking Bill to do this because I'm thrilled to talk about this show that I love. And like I said, we'll be back with Westworld and Better Call Saul next week. And hopefully Charles and I can or Charles and someone will find something else talk about in this feed. Can't wait to hear what that is. And then thanks as always to the incredible Chris Sutton. who is also a foodie.

And maybe, Chris, do you want to give us, as we go out, do you want to give the folks a recommendation, any restaurants they should try? You know, in Portland, I just got to say, like, there's so much food and it's so specific and like just very, very tight. You know, it's like, if you like eating flower petals on a muffin, like, we got a cart for you. That sounds great. So just as a Portlander, if I were to say one thing over another, I think I might, I might lose

my hipster card over here. All right, fair enough. That's a great answer, but I'm really excited by the idea of putting flower petals on baked goods. And we'll be back next week. Bye. Let it rip, cousin.