The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘The Bear’ Season 2, Episodes 9-10 Recap

Episode Date: June 30, 2023

Charles and Van share their thoughts on the final two episodes of ‘The Bear’ Season 2 and wrap up their coverage of the FX series for this season. They discuss the immense success of the show’s second season, the palpable chemistry between Carmy and Sydney, the crushing final scenes, and where ‘The Bear’ ranks among the best TV shows of 2023 so far. Along the way, the guys talk about the impressive production design behind the new restaurant and how its ambience still feels similar to the Original Beef, as well as whether the Coach K metaphor worked. Hosts: Charles Holmes and Van Lathan Producer: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Welcome to the prestige TV podcast where we put everything we have into everything we can. I'm Charles Holmes. He's Van Lathan. Together we're known as the Midnight Boys. And we're back to discuss the final two episodes of the Bears season two. Van, I'm getting a little bit emotional. Are you ready to say goodbye to these? Our family, our cousins.

It's tough, man. This has been a world win of, Watching, tasting, watching this show prepare and gestated. It's going to be tough, but they did the thing, bro. I'm not going to lie. They stuck the landing, bro. That was going to be my first question,

but let's just say it, bro. They did. Like, my heart, it's in a million pieces, but in the best way possible, guys. So we're going to talk about the final two episodes, Omlet and the Bear, which is directed by Christopher Store. Omelette is written by Storrh, while the Bear is handled by Kelly Galuska.

and Van, we already said it. This show stuck the landing. But let's talk about episode 9 and 10 together for right now. To you, why? What was it about the penultimate and the season finale that you were like, they did what they needed to do with this series? Because there was very little chance that the opening of the restaurant was going to be a disaster.

There was very little chance that they were going to take us out like that. That wasn't going to happen. The question is, how could it be a success and still put the characters in a situation where they have to ask the question if they gave too much. Because I think that is kind of what this show is interrogating, how much you give to your passion, how much you give to your life. If I look at this season, I see a bunch of characters who are balancing who they are with what they are.

And even in the Christmas episode, the mom spends all the time cooking, right? And the food doesn't really get touched. Everything is damaged around her. The kitchen is destroyed. The home is destroyed. Everyone is fighting. She spends all that energy making the food, while the people who are supposed to consume it don't get any attention at all. And if you look at this season when it's Marcus having to go away and deal with the situation with his mother,

it's when it's even Sid thinking so much about the restaurant that she's not really even cognizant of some of the other things that are happening. The little glitch between her and Marcus. All kinds of stuff like that's happening. And Carmen having to juggle whether or not it's worth it. to let love derail your obsession. Yeah. And the conversation that he has with his uncle, where his uncle says,

if you're going to do this and I'm going to do this, then you have to give this all your focus. Easy for you to say, you went to the opening of his restaurant with a lady companion. You're at a different point in your life. It's calm worthy of happiness. It's just an interesting question

is finishing, is executing? Is that more important than tenderness, compassion, and connection with people? You know what I mean? So, you know, they figured out their restaurant. It seems like they did. But, like, did they figure out themselves? And I don't see there's any way

that there's any way that you can, you know, argue that they did. I mean, I think the success of this season, and it's such a hard thing to do, is that they tear down the entire concept of what we knew the bear as in that first season finale. And what this season does is it proves that, no, these people are the restaurant. The restaurant looks different. This doesn't look like the beef anymore.

There are new chefs now in the kitchen. Ritchie's role is different. Sydney's role, Marcus's role, they're growing into these roles. They're maturing. But even though everything looks aesthetically different, even though the cooking that they are doing is at a higher level, the core, the emotional

core of the show is still these people. The triumph of them. It was just like, what's amazing about these two episodes is that think about where we were left after the last two episodes of last season. Sydney, quitting,

Richie getting stabbed. These two people, quite literally being the people that almost sink the beef. And to see them in these two episodes, be empowered, and they're the ones who save the restaurant, it's not Carmi who gets them across the line. It's the two of them working together. I was like, no, that's brilliant. Because you gave me, now I can go back to season one and be like, oh, this is what the show always was. It was always about this people. It was always bigger than this

concept of a restaurant. As long as this group is together, we're going to get magic. So I could not agree with you more. But let's go, let's go a little bit higher. And I want to ask you, now that we've seen the Bears menu and decor, how do you think Carmie and the team did? They did fantastic. The restaurant looks great. The restaurant looks great. It feels great. I think the creators here did a fantastic job of creating the ambiance of the restaurant and letting that spill out of the show itself and into your living room or wherever you're watching it, I think I could feel how the restaurant is supposed to feel.

I could sense myself inside of it. They did a great job of that. The food looked amazing, which is something that, you know, we didn't get quite as much food this season as we got last season. It ramped up towards the end. but the food here looks great.

The menu is very diverse. They worked out some kinks, but they had enough contingencies for the things that went wrong for them to continue their service at a high level. What do you think? Not only do I think that they did a good job

in convincing me that this is a place because if there's a season three, which I think there is going to be, they had the tricky job of making this restaurant feel just as emotional and important as the beef. Because the beef is like your first album.

You know what I'm saying? You fall in love with an artist's first album. The trick with the sophomore album is, can you stay on this ride? And I was just like, oh, no, I want to stay in this kitchen. I want to learn more about this. And I think the second thing that they did is that the food tells a story.

They're just not cooking food to cook food. When you see the menu on the chalkboard, you're like, oh, this is an Italian. This is like an Italian chaos, whatever you want to call it, menu. where Karmie is trying to cook away his demons. We get to see the canoli that's named Michael. I felt like that punched me in the gut,

just like it did the characters. I was like, this is so beautiful. Like this is when you see Marcus's new updated donut going on the menu and how proud Karmie and Sid are of Marcus and how far he's come in such a short time, I'm like, that is such a hard thing for creators, for writers, for actors to achieve, to make me feel as engrossed and invested in something as simple as this kid learning how to make a donut at the top level. You know what I mean? Absolutely.

There's a scene where Sid makes an omelet for sugar. Yeah. And it was a very deliberate, I feel like, choice by, you know, the creators here to show her making that entire omit. Right. And it's an important scene for me to kind of take apart. Sugar says she doesn't feel well. She's hungry.

She's not feeling one. See, it says, let me make you something. The first saw is, no, let me make you something. Let me make you feel better. This is what I do. Let me make you something. She makes her an omelet. And she doesn't just do what you and I would do.

And this is what chefs in these movies about chefs never do. In the movie chef, John Favreau's character makes a grilled cheese sandwich. And dog, it looks nuts the way he makes the grilled cheese sandwich. Oh, the girl cheese sandwich is chef. It looks. When he puts that, when he cuts it in and it goes, I'm like, oh, shit. You know what I'm saying?

But she takes her time. She pours into it. And the scene shows you everything that you have to do to make a good almond. When I make an almond, I throw some butter in the pan, boom, boom, boom, boom, eat it, whatever. You know what I'm saying?

Everything she has to do. And then she stands there while sugar eats it, and she feels fulfilled. She feels fulfilled. That is connection. That's like how your mom cooks for you, your grandma, your dad, or whatever.

That's a connection. That's actually not what they get in the restaurant. See, the restaurant is the abyss, okay? And the thing about the abyss is you shout into it and you pour into it, and what does the abyss give you back? Nothing, right? The restaurant is them in the back

chasing their tale and reading reviews and hearing it second hand, the enjoyment is in the process, which is why the enjoyment would seemingly be in the process, which is why the last episode is all about process. It's all about what went right and what were wrong and how they overcame. Because the gratification that you get

by watching someone be fulfilled and inspired by what you do, they don't get that. It doesn't seem like that's something that they get to experience. So for me, watching everybody drained and battered and bruised and destroyed

at the end of what should be the biggest moment in their lives was just utterly moving. The crux of these two episodes, the moment where I was just like, if you do not land this, the entire series, doesn't work.

Is the reconciliation scene between Karmie and Sydney because what those two actors and the writers have to accomplish in that moment is show us that not only is this an equal partnership, but

Karmie views Sydney as integral to this process. It's not about him being a better chef. There's something to your point. It's connected to the omelette scene where it's like he knows, that Sydney has something that he does not, that she can take care of people,

that her cooking is so beautiful because she has this sense of like, I want my food to make you feel something and make you feel cared for. And when Karmie says, I wouldn't even want to do it without you, you make me better at this. It was so moving because what Sydney has been able to do

is that she knows what every, else in that kitchen needs. She's the one who's being like, yo, Tina needs to go to school. Let's send Marcus away. She's the one who looks at Richie, and when Richie's like, I can do this, she shakes her head and be like, hey, let's go.

You're my teammate. And Carmie knowing that before Sid was just like, I thought that scene was just done so well. How did you feel about that scene under the table? The show manages to do something where every single scene is like

stressing me out because I didn't know it was about to happen under that table man I was hoping that they didn't do it I was like

that was the most intimate non-love scene I've seen between a male and a female lead in a long time yeah

pure chemistry not sexual just just chemistry as people yeah it had the same tension that you get but it was none of the other stuff

and it was so much the scene worked so well between them in terms of their connection that I didn't know how to perceive the scene without romance. I put the romance in there even though it didn't exist there because I'm not used to seeing a male

and a female character in that type of relationship with that sharing like that unless there's an underlying attraction. And I'm not 100% sure that there's not, like, latently somewhere. It doesn't seem that there is going to be, but it was two people really professing their love to one another.

I mean, that's really what it was. But it is a love story, and that's what I think trips people up. Carmi and Sydney is a love story, but it is not a, it is a platonic one. It is two people who have a similar viewpoint about the world and about art. You know what I mean? Like, this is the Beatles. This is two, this is outcast.

These are artists that are meant to coexist with each other. And that's why I think it kicks so many people's ass when they're like, now, Carmie and Sid have to end up romantically together. I'm like, dog, this is just Don and Peggy from Mad Men all over again, where it's just like, Carmi can see that like, she's talented. She can be just as talented as me, and he's competitive. He wants to be the best. I think there is a real reason that Carmie wants Sydney around.

It's like steel, sharp, and steel. He knows who she will become as a chef, even if she doesn't yet. But do you know who we do need to talk about the sexual tension with? Ah, yeah, stuff. Did Marcus blow it? Kai, I didn't even have this as a Kai corner, but we got to get the Risking in. Kai jump in. Come on, Risking.

Riz King. Did Markis blow it? I thought about you when I saw this same, bro. I thought about Kyle. That's crazy. Honestly, it's fair, though. That's something I would do. Fumble a bag like that.

I want you both to know, too, that my girlfriend is now referring to me as the Risking. So that's y'all's fault. You told us. It's great. You are the Risking. Kai, have you ever fumbled this bad in front of a girl? Probably in front of my now girlfriend,

honestly. Like, just the first few times we were hanging out. just like, you know, nervous, didn't really know what to say, didn't know, you know, how we're going to move forward, you know, asking her to be my girlfriend that first time, terrifying. So, yeah, I probably fumbled it a few times, honestly. But that one was, I could feel it in that scene. It was, it was palpable. And I was like, ooh, and now they're in the same kitchen and the, the intensity is already

at a 10. So, yeah, I felt for Marcus in that moment. So before, Kai, before you leave, because there's going to be more towards the end of the episode, I got to ask you all. both this. The thing that brings them together, which was also a beautiful, like, I'm just like, this is exactly how you would do this is, uh, my man,

uh, Josh is smoking crack. Jesus Christ. Kai, we'll go first. Should Marcus and Sydney have given Josh another shot? Uh, that's tough. I, I, I, I gotta go, no.

You can't. You can't. You can't. You can't. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? I feel you, dog. But you can't, you can't. You can't smoke crack on the job. It's intense, but you can't. That's too far. Come on, man.

I felt bad. I'm just like, dog, you might have just needed a little pick-me-up at the end of the day. Especially because he's new, too, right? Like, it's not like he's been a member of the original beef before. It's not like he's been there for a minute. Like, he was just brought on and he's already doing that. So it's like, eh, can't trust him.

Can't smoke crack, bro. Not on the job. You can look, I'm not trying to get at, you know, people got addiction issues as gravy. Can't smoke crack on the job. You can't smoke crack on the job. That's a rule. You can't smoke crack on the job. Wait, are you saying that's a societal rule now that we've all agreed as a society?

You can't smoke crack on the job? You can't, yeah, you can't smoke crack on the job. It's, you know, and it's a thing. It happens, but no, you can't do it. He's about this smoking crack. It's a very funny scene. It goes back, is that, is that mess? Wait, hold on.

I think I got to fire you. I don't know. Let me check with somebody. I think I got to fire you. Hold on, hold on. Let me, like, I was just like, dog, this, like, This show is so fucking funny. Kai, you failed the test because here, we would have given him another chance,

or at least I would have given him another chance, okay? He had a bad day. It's fine. Snoring, gasping during sleep, feeling fatigue, ask your doctor about Zepbound, terse appetite. The first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and adults with obesity. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet. and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea,

OSA, and obesity to improve their OSA. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligram injection. Zetbound contains terseptitide and should not be used with other terseptide-containing products or any GLP1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pins or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2.

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low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsened kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-9 or visit setbound.lily.com. There's been a season-long metaphor. I'm not a big sports guy, so I have to ask you, Ben. Did the Coach K metaphor land?

I didn't understand it. I mean, I got what they were going for, which is essentially, wait, Actually, I don't. I thought I did. Who was Coach K in this metaphor? Was it Sydney? Was it Richie?

I don't, I didn't understand it. I think it was just kind of, it was kind of, as a matter of fact, I don't know necessarily that I even gave it very much thought, but I really kind of didn't get it. But Coach K kept coming up in episode after episode. Yeah, she kept, she was reading the Coach K book. They talked about the comeback that Duke had, I mean, I guess what I could say is that it looked like at a time that they weren't going to be able to figure out what was happening

with the bear that they looked like the odds were against them. And it was process and like perseverance and them sticking to who they are that got them through. So you can argue that she learned something about that. So the family and friends night is supposed to be a basketball game where she figures out what she needs to do as a coach to get her team across the finish line. Because she adjusts, right? She kind of, she adjusts and they lose a player to injury.

Karm gets stuck in the walk-in, which is just a genius narrative decision. I mean, just, I mean, it's just... It's so good. It's just a genius narrative decision. And Karm gets stuck in a walk-in, and then she has to coach the team in a different way. She has to empower Ritchie. She has to take Karm's spot, and they got to still rock out. I mean, you could learn, you could argue that maybe it comes full circle in that situation,

but that's probably something that that kind of didn't really matter very much to me. Yeah, the reason I thought it was a little bit murky is because, like, I was picking up on everything that you were saying, but because we only get to see the restaurant in full force during family and friends night, it didn't have the sports movie thing where we get to see what they are like losing, losing, losing, losing in the kitchen. And then winning. It was just like the whole night was basically like, okay, they're losing, losing, losing.

Now they win, which is not as tension-filled, I guess. Which is why I thought the coach K metaphor, a little mixed. But I want to go back to what you said about the refrigerator. Because one thing I've been noticing this entire season, do you remember the episode where the wall falls during Sugar's like accidental pregnancy reveal? and then we have Donna driving through the house. It was moments like that where I'm like, this show has such a old school sitcom vibe.

Like some of the physical humor was reminding me of like the three stooges or something that is very, like we just don't do as much in comedy anymore. And I think putting Carmian in a refrigerator is such a great choice because it is such a cliche sitcom. mechanic where you always know, like, all right, there's going to be an episode where somebody's going to get stuck in the freezer, somebody's going to have to get them out. We know this. But what the show actually does, visually, storytelling-wise, is I'm just like, oh, no, not only is Karmie stuck in this refrigerator, we're watching a man descend into his old, into an old way

of living. When he's stuck in that refrigerator, before he even says anything to Claire, before he says anything to Richie, it signals to you, oh no. The man, the chef that leaves this refrigerator is not the Karmie that

we've seen in season two. He's not the person that has been softened by Claire who wants to empower these people. This is the guy that was forged at places like Noma and the French Laundry and all these places. He is not coming back out as the best version of himself.

What to you worked best about the entire refrigerator scene? First of all, us being comic heads, the fridging of a character means a lot to us. Yes. So seeing a male lead, the hero of his show, fridged,

and then watching the female lead of the show Save the Day, is in and of itself turning that trope on his head, which I think is brilliant. Oh, it's such a good point. Such a good point. Number two, I thought about what Karmie was when he was inside of the fridge, when he was in there. Right.

He was in a place that was cold. He was alone and he was surrounded by food. Yeah. Cold, alone, surrounded by food. And he chose that life inside of the refrigerator. He chose that life. That could have been a moment. He's inside there and he goes, I'm away from everyone.

I'm by myself. I'm angry. Like, when I come out of here, reconnect with everybody and I'm going to think about this, but that's not what he did. What he did was he said, I'm in here because I haven't been cold enough. He was as cold as maybe he'd been in a long time. I did Chicago. But he's inside the refrigerator because he hadn't been cold enough,

because he hadn't been focused enough, because he was warm. warming up to Claire because he was warming up to other people. He hadn't been cold enough. So when he was separated from warmth, the warmth of her, the warmth being radiated by other people, the kinetic energy of the kitchen, he chose to be colder. And he didn't get a chance to back out of it because she caught him.

She caught him at his most vulnerable. Claire, of course, goes back there. She finds him in the refrigerator. She caught him at his most vulnerable, his lowest, maybe lowest, or maybe most truthful moment. And she hears him, and in hearing him, she can't deal with it. She cries and realizes that there's a part of him. that she can't access and maybe never will.

Then he chooses to listen to that voicemail. And when he listens to that voicemail, he gets the frame of reference for how much he just hurt her. And like, man, in order to know how much you are hurting someone or you can hurt someone, first you have to endeavor to love them deeply.

And that's like a human lesson that you have to learn. You have to endeavor to love somebody so deeply. You have to learn about the depth of their feelings for you and the depth of your feelings for them to understand like how badly you can hurt them. And because up to this point with the phone call and when she was out there, he was playing her to the left, he didn't know the capability of the damage that he had to do, that he could have done. And now it doesn't matter whether or whether or not he regrets his choice or not, he already made it. To your point, he says

something. He says, I'm the best because I didn't have any of this fucking bullshit, right? I could focus and I could concentrate and I had a routine. And that quote is so telling because what did we see in an episode like Honeydew? We saw someone who quite literally was telling

Marcus, I'm not the best. That is why I'm free. That's, honeydue was such a warm episode. It's you see oranges and Browns and when they're cooking, it is such an inviting and warm atmosphere. And to see Carmie be like, I'm the best, to your point in a cold environment, where he is alone, you're like, oh, he's not Luca.

He is quite literally the antithesis. This is why this man can't be happy. And in one of my favorite scenes, I am a, I know this is like a basic bitch film bro way of like every single time a show does it. I love it. the shot of Carmi being stuck in the fridge and Richie being on the other side they knew what they were doing

like I'm just like dog but dog that shot and that performance between those two because Richie is at a high this was Richie's moment he won the game he finally found his place in this restaurant they didn't drown

he's the reason that this night was ultimately successful. And at his highest, he sees Karmie at his lowest. And he's trying to love him. He's trying to pour love into him and Karmie will not have him. He's screaming at him, I love you. I love you. He's screaming at him. And I want you to think about where that comes from.

You know, he is obsessed with the family, right? Rich he is. He's definitely obsessed with the family. family. But, you know, he legitimately loves them and he watched Michael die. And Carmi wasn't there. Yeah. So it gets to a situation to where he's like, yo, am I going to have to watch you die too? Are you going to, like, is it going to be that Michael died because he didn't do enough and that now you're going to die because you did too much? Like, are you guys going to ever get it right? He says his mother's name.

Donna, another thing we have to talk about. He says his mother's name. He's trying to tell him, he's like, you know, break the chain, get outside of this. He's screaming at him, you know? Yeah. Trying to help. Richie has found something. It's interesting that Richie found structure in work,

and he feels like Carm needs to find structure or happiness outside of it, right? They actually, like, have two almost competing arcs in that respect. And just kind of watching them in there, they're both raging against each other, but different parts of one another. But, you know, the entire last episode, and we talked about Marcus's shot that he took with Sid, right? Yeah.

excruciating scene to watch. you just shake her back into life. Now, I don't want this. And she's like, that's not an ass cut. I'm like, I'm just watching the walk. I'm like, wow, this show just kicks you in your nuts with the brutal, beautiful humanity of everything that's happened. It's also worse.

What makes it worse is because everybody's been in this when it's like, it's your home girl. Like, you're just like, damn, it's like that will, they won't they? When you realize it's a won't day, you're like, damn, I just fucked up something. Yeah, it's like a situation to where, it's the toothpaste

is out of the tube, you know. Even if you manage to put it back in there, it's messy, your finger smell like Cole gate, you know what I mean? So it's like, it's just weird, but all of those things end up

when you're at your your most desperate moment, it's the little inconsistencies in your life that come back to haunt you. It's the little things, the little details that come back to haunt you when you're at your most desperate. So for him, in that situation, for them, should I say, in that situation, like later on,

just the little bit of the erosion of trust between them, the small erosion of it, that he doesn't know whether or not she's pissed at him because of what's going on in the restaurant or because of what happened earlier. And now, though, the floodgates are open. but they managed to corral it. They managed to get their arm around it. And it's such an awesome thing when we leave the hectic back of the restaurant

and get out to the front. I have a new appreciation of people that make food. Yeah. Because everything out there is, it seems to be going swimmingly. And then you start to see that some of the things that you thought were real. I thought that Joe McKell was in the restaurant.

I thought that his character was actually there. I was so scared. I was like, my gosh, if Joe McKill is in this fucking restaurant, what is going to happen? But to your point, the show does such a great job of putting you in both seats.

It makes you feel like a chef and it makes you feel that chaos, but it also makes you feel like you're a diner and it's that high and low. But before we get off, Rich, I want to ask you a real quick question. Do you think Richie was so mad? Obviously, he was mad at Carmi

for hurting Claire's feelings, but do you think part of it was Richie knows what this path is. Richie is the happiest of anyone that Carmi has Claire because he's hurt women. He hurt his ex-wife. He doesn't have the greatest relationship with his daughter. Him and Sidney did not get along.

He has to apologize to sugar. He knows that path of being like, honestly, like, an ancient motherfucker. And I'm like, was his anger not just because he loves Carmi so much and he wants to see him do better, but also he knows that I'm, like if Karmie goes down this road, the road back is just so painful,

and he doesn't want to see, like, his little brother go through that. I do think that's true. I also think, though, that as frustrating as seeing people make mistakes is, the only way that it gets more frustrating is when different people keep making the same mistake. And everybody's been through this in their life, right?

There's a whole family of people. And homeboys of mine, it would be like, it was an older brother, a middle brother, and a younger brother. Older brother, dead. Middle brother did the twofer, went to prison, and then got killed in prison. So prison and jail dead, right? And I just remember, last time I was home,

not the last time I was home, it was home in 2018, and I run into the younger brother who was like, not of our generation. Like, he was a kid when we were older, born in maybe like 91, 92. Man, couldn't have been 91. Oh, like, born around, like, he was like five, six years old when I was getting out of college. So he's born like 98, 99 or something.

Okay, yeah, so young. Like way young, way younger, way younger. Their mother got remarried. I seen him. He came to hang out and he was like, I was like, you're just, you're doing the same shit? And I remember he told me, he goes, you know, I didn't even know the niggas because his brothers were so much older than him. It's like, I didn't really even know the niggas. And I said, well, I did.

I'm telling you, you're doing the same shit. You're doing the same shit. And I'm looking at them. I'm like, it's the same shit. Like, he's like, man, I didn't really know. I'm like, I knew them. I knew them. I knew them.

I knew your brothers. I know where you're from. I know your mom. I know your whole family. I know it. I know what you're doing. It's the same shit. Stop doing the same shit.

I can tell you right now. I can tell you doing the same shit. and it's like you want to, hey, man, let's keep in touch. Nah, I don't want to keep in touch. Because I'm already buried two of y'all. And I'm not looking forward to doing it again. So, so, so, you know what I'm saying? I mean, but think about what sets call me off.

What sets call me off is when Ritchie is like, yo, you're just like Donna. You're just like your mother. If you've ever been a relationship, you've ever been like a part of a big family, nothing will set a motherfucker off. Be like, you're just like your dad. Yeah.

You tell what just like your mom. It's just like there's something by a lot. You're just like, to your point, you're just like your brother, get set off because you're like, oh, it makes humans who are very narcissistic by nature realize that they don't exist in a vacuum, that the decisions that they make are part of a continuum, are a part of a family. Like, what you do, what your brothers did, can happen again. You guys come from the same stock, the same seed, the same land. And I do think Richie is like, hey, if this doesn't stop, you're going to be the next Donna, you're going to be the next Mikey.

This is a curse that happens to this family, constant. Yeah, of course he feels that way. And he feels bad for Claire because he knows her and he thinks that she's good for him. And he's to a point, I guess, in his life where he sees that there are answers and he wants Carmen to try to find something. there was, you know, there wasn't a thought or an expectation for me that opening the restaurant would be like a real blow to the show. Really? Yeah, because I thought that with what we got from the first season and what we were getting in this season, that opening the restaurant would be something that would be the beginning of the end for the bear. Because once that happens, like really, what could the show be?

about. You know, like when the show was just about the beef, it initiates you almost every single season, initiates you into the beef, it initiates you into the bear. And there's nothing, it's not going to be anything else after that. So what is left to initiate in season three? In a way, it seems like they're worse than where they started. Yeah. And so, like almost every single arc is unfinished.

and I'm invested in. Let's talk about that. Where does it go then for season three? Because I think I had a similar feeling to you. Or after the first season, I was just like, how does the bear exist with a new restaurant? And now I'm just like, you made the restaurant. How do you do this again?

And I think I have an answer for you then. If we're using, if we're using like the musician analogy, what happens to Karmie unleashed? What happens when Karmie becomes Joel McHale? What happens when he has a restaurant with one Michelin Star, two Michelin Star, and he's riding? He's more successful than he could ever imagine, and everybody around him is miserable.

Because you see that happening with Sidney. That is what will happen if Karmie only focuses, if his only outlet in life is the restaurant, he is destined to become that guy. That might be why he's seeing him when he's not there. I agree. And I think that that is like,

because what is every rap, what is every third, fourth rap album about from a superstar? Doggum rich as hell and like, it's not what I thought it would be. I'm successful beyond my wildest imagination is not what I thought it would be. And I'm looking at this and I'm just like,

oh, we've seen a broken carmi in the first season who can't even cook the type of food he wants because he's just trying to keep the beef afloat. We've seen a recovering carmi where, oh, like, a lot of this show is about addiction. We see someone who was like recovering on the way.

This season to me was about recovery. How do you become the best version of yourself? What happens in a third season when Carmi relapses to his old ways? When he becomes the chef that he was trying to outrun when he was with Joel McHale. That is a scary show. That is an even more intense show

when Carmi becomes The Terminator. I think it is. I also think there are things to figure out. There's Donna to figure out. And I hope that with all of Jamie Lee's success, that she's in the show more. Wait, can you talk about the Donna and Pete scene? We skipped over it, but that's a really, really important scene.

What about that scene, like, hit home for you? Number one, a mother who is afraid of ruining things for her children is just like inherently relatable to me, you know, because what we see is the cliche of the mom who doesn't know when to stop and who can't, who even, you know, if you listen to Life of the Party, Andre 3,000 is talking about his mother, right? one of the most beautiful rap verses ever. One of the most devastating rap versus ever.

Like, listen, bro, I'm going to spare you guys the Van Dead Dad diatripe, but for that to come off, for that to come out during that time, and for me to be walking around LA listening to that with my ears, yo, whoo, crazy. But he says in that,

as he's talking about his mom and everything, he says, I don't miss her overstep it, but I do miss her showing seven civilian life shit. So there's an admission there that one thing that we always know that our mothers are going to do is to overstep. Yeah. Just do that. Like if I get a cold right now, I'm not going to tell my mom.

When I got COVID, didn't tell my mother. I don't need her to have COVID. Because as soon as I have it, she hasn't. What we're not used to them doing is. pulling away. We're used to them overstepping. We're not used to them pulling away. Seeing them pull away because they feel like they're going to ruin

something or they feel like they can't be a part of it. When you know something like that, that hurts in a different way. The part where they're overly involved and annoying and maybe a little bit, you know that that's coming from love. But like,

there's this brutal part of your parents saying I can't be a part of what my child is doing for X reason that's very difficult and Pete doesn't understand it. Pete knows how much it means to sugar. He knows how much it means.

And I just I want everybody out there who's making shows and I hope that the writers are able to that the writers are able to get what they need but everyone out there is making shows that's stunt casting or that's

that's using a ton of CGI. It's in the pen, man. It's in the story. It's in the pen. That scene takes a character who was the most unlikable character in this entire show. Even Richie, who was an asshole,

was more likable than Pete who seemed like a toxic doofus. He was the meg of the show. He was the Meg from Family Guy of this show where it's like his entire existence was so other characters could be like, look at this jackass. And to see,

what he does in this scene because like Jamie Lee Curtis is amazing but if you've had the ability to know enough people, whether it's a friend, whether it's a girlfriend, boyfriend, a wife, a husband, whoever, that feeling

of knowing that a parent just showing up for someone would change their entire night. It would be their world. Pete knows deep down. He's like this is all that sugar wants. This is all that she needs in the world. And when he breaks down, and is crying in front of her.

I'm like, this is such a truthful portrayal of what that is to love someone and know what they need. But also when Jamie Lee Curtis is just like, yo, you need to tell me I can go. And Pete being stuck being like, I have to choose between the human that it's in front of me and the wife that I promised the world to. And it's an impossible decision. Yeah. I mean, the whole thing is him kind of standing in between a mother and a daughter trying to put them together, trying to fix something that's like broken beyond anything

that he could, he doesn't understand it. It's like almost like a Tom Wams-Gams situation. It's almost like a situation where Tom is like, he's kind of the tom of this show in a way. It's almost like a situation where like, where Tom is like, you know, my family ain't like this. I don't get this. I'm kind of a weakling when I'm around you guys, but I at least expect that there's going to be some sort of civility and love between one of you.

This is the biggest moment in the world for her, not just for her, but for your son. This is part of their legacy. This is not just about them, but about your other poor deceased son. All of it, the healing can begin if you just step inside of the restaurant. If you just step inside at a restaurant,

like the healing can start. And she just can't heal. Carmi can't heal. They just can't heal. It's impossible. The wounds are deep and they don't know how. But can I ask you this? Have you ever been in a position where,

you know, a friend's parents, your girl, your boys' parents, sometimes will be way more real with you than they ever will with your child? The shit I've heard parents say about the love that they have for their children or why they can't disappoint them. I'm just like,

wait, say that to your child. Don't say that to me. And realizing that they can't. There's a part, there is a gap of, if Donna goes in to that restaurant, it's an admission to herself that she failed in a lot of ways.

How? To me, at least, she has to confront the fact that there's a reason that Karmie did not invite her. Ah. There's a reason why he was very, very, like, Sugar did not tell. Sugar did not tell Carmie that she was coming.

I don't even know if Carmi has seen his mom since the death. I don't think that they have, because I think in the first season, isn't Sugar, like, when are you going to, like, reach out to mom again? So I'm thinking, like, to her, it's like, it's Donna being, like, I push my son away. and now I'm robbing him of his moment because he doesn't want me here. What she says is they have something good.

It's good. Let them have something good, basically, to paraphrase, as if her being a part of it is going to make it something bad. And Pete doesn't understand that. Pete is so relatable in that moment. He's so pure.

There's a childlike aura that he always has. it's the first scene in the whole show where I see why Sugar loves him and that he makes her feel safe like he really protects her, he really loves her like he really, he makes her feel safe he probably gives her a little piece from her family. It's one of the first scenes

because like other than that, they treat them so badly. There is the scene at the party in the first season where he tries to interject on her behalf with her brother and talk to Karm about it, but they dismiss him so much that they almost, he seems like a gelding sometimes. But in this situation, he showed a tremendous amount of emotional strength.

I loved the scene. Of all the scenes in the show, that's the one that made me cry. Really? Yeah. But here's the thing. Do you think that they also hate Pete? Because Pete is actually like a representation of everything like

Carmi and Richie are not. He is so vulnerable. He can cry. He loves people. He wants to bring people together. And I'm just like, if I'm Karmie, I'm just like, get the fuck out of here. There's nothing more annoying than meeting someone who is so comfortable being themselves and being of service to people.

Like, Pete gives sugar something that Karmie cannot, something that Mikey and the family cannot. He gives her this unconditional love that is not wrapped up in their bullshit. And if I'm her brother, I'm just like, that's hard to watch. You know, somebody, because here's a thing, why, this especially happens in black families. Why do people feel some type of way if you bring a certain girl home, a certain guy home, a da-da-da-da. Because, especially if your family life is rough, because you found something outside of the family that they can't give you. And that, depending upon where you come from, is a very, very, very, very hard thing to come to grips with.

You know what? And sometimes we just be acting like assholes, too. I'll be honest with you. My sister would bring guys home. And we would just, you know, my sister would bring guys home. And it wasn't nothing deep. It would just be like, yo, what's up? Hey, man, what's popper?

Like, what, what you do? You play ball? You hoop? Yeah, I hoop. I can go, oh, you say you can hoop? Nica, you think you good? Hey, hey, go get us some sneakers. We have to go outside real quick.

Nah, you say he can play. He's like, leave a lot. Now he's saying he can play. Let's go. Let's see what's up. Just because back in my mind, I feel like you're fucking my sister. So I'm like, okay. Oh, my.

I mean, it's just, I'm just saying. You know what I mean? So it's like, oh, what's good with you? And then if he can survive the test, then he's good. Wait, you know what I mean? Did you actually play him in basketball? I play one of her boyfriends in basketball, yeah. Who won?

I won. He could hoop. Like, he could hoop. And by the way, she was two years older. So I was, I was. I was 15, give us this motherfucker work. He could hoop, though. He could, no, he could hoop, though.

I'm not even going to play, because he, you know, no guy. He could, he could hoop, he could play. But, you know, I was already a little taller. I was shooting. I was, and, but the game turned, the game turned pretty, got pretty, pretty rough. Wait, was your sister watching? Nah, she's inside.

I was about to say, if you let your sister watch, like, you were an asshole. Nah, she was inside. She was inside. We played three to 11. He won, I won, and then I won the last one, 11 to 10. But he was a senior, so he was feeling kind of play. But he was small, played a different position, it's one-on-one.

So it was like, whatever. I was punished him a little bit. It's bigger than him. Let's go to some bigger picture questions. My first one, we took. talked about it last episode, where we did not know how successful season two was going to be. Now we know that it is now FX's most watched Lulu debut. How does that change the bear's trajectory in what will most likely be a season three order?

Guy lean into it. There's no reason to baby the bear anymore. It's not a baby bear anymore. The bear is a big grizzly bear. It's a juggernaut of television. It's not just a critical darling, but it's doing gangbusters. for FX, got to lean into it. It is now officially time

for the bear to be up there with the successions of the world. The other great shows, I mean, we're doing it here on the prestige pod. It is prestige, but the bear should be going for the entire fucking kit

and cabood. Okay? It's no longer time to play around. I'm not saying that they're doing that, but what I'm saying is it's time for... We can't keep, we're putting it, I'm not saying it's better than any of these shows. But hey, man, like,

if it keeps, if it keeps cooking, we talk about it in the same breath of succession, freaking bad, mad men, it's still too soon. It's a small sample size. But to your point, like,

we can't keep acting like this is, you know, freshman sophomore season. Like, you are varsity player now. Yeah, absolutely. The show is doing this thing.

So it's time to treat the bear as a show that's doing this. thing. And we've said this, but let's say it again. Now, my favorite, my second favorite show of all time ended, Succession, beautiful final season, beautiful. Maybe it's a recency bias, man, but I think season two of the bear was better. I think season two of the bear just, it did its thing. I think it's better. Let me tell you this. Let me tell you this. I liked it more for sure. I liked it more for sure. I don't want to jump out the window,

even though I did say this before I do I think in time I can compare better a little bit I liked this season of the bear more than the last season of Succession and I'm struggling to think

what Succession did better there's recent Cibos I don't want to do this until we've had some time to think about it but I... Not this is what we do on our podcast we got to plan our flag I connected to this season of the bear unlike I've connected

to any season of television in a while. And let me say something else. There's something else that I dig about the bear. And we almost don't talk about this. The show is about story and not really about making any type of statement. The bear has black people. I'm just saying, guys,

the bear has black people and the bear has Latinx people. The bear is a show that's as diverse in character and character background as it is in character ethnicity. Don't even, not just ethnicity. Think about age. Think about the varied age of every.

These are not young stars in this. There are a few, but these are older actors. And it loses nothing. What I will wonder, especially as you compare the bear to a show like succession. And I wouldn't be vaned if I didn't do this. So for everybody that's about to get mad,

fuck it. What I wonder is if there is a American wasp, wet dream that Succession taps into sometimes that in some way, we talked about it before, Succession feels more important, it's bigger, it's multinational, it's all of that stuff. but also it's about people that a lot of Americans want to be. And sometimes I think those are the type of things that make us give knee-jerk reactions and think, well, there's no way that a story about white, black, and brown people making a restaurant in Chicago could ever be on the same level as that, because those are the people that everybody is trying to be. everyone is trying to be. So I wonder if people are open to relating to the bear

and to saying that the bear is on these artistic heights as much as they would be succession. Succession hits you over the head with its grandiosity. You know what I mean? From the moment that the beautiful Nicholas Bertel score comes in, you know, it doesn't let it up that we are important. But we know that they are important because those are the important people

that we see all the time. I wonder if people, and shout out to Robert Townsend, who we haven't mentioned on this entire podcast who plays Sid's dad, who is a veteran. Oh, and he...

He's not in a bunch of this season, but the scenes that he's in... Does a great job. The warmth, the reality brings to that role, just legend, as you said, he's amazing. So, you know,

that's the end of my little soap. box. Wait, whoa, whoa, whoa, don't end it because I have to ask you some things. I have to ask you to expel. Okay. Because I agree with you where I,

succession is like in my top three TV shows of all time. But the big picture was talking about this, I think a couple weeks ago, where our greatest, at least movie directors, and this has kind of been in the discourse, don't really make movies about the present moment anymore. They're period pieces.

what's coming out soon, Oppenheimer, something like Wes Anderson. West Anderson is always looking back to the past. PTA, for a while, has been looking back to the past. When I look at TV and what I'm loving from TV, whether it's Abbott Elementary, whether it's the bear, stories about like real people dealing with very, very down-to-the-earth problems, which is what I want more from.

I want to see more shows where I can see black teachers having to figure it out in a public school where I have to see black and brown people and Italian people have to learn to get along in a restaurant. We haven't really, we've been in such, do you feel like the ecosystem needs more of these stories? And I'm not saying diverse stories. I'm saying stories that aren't so, to your point. rich white man and his rich friends

dealing with shit or evil mobster dealing with shit where it's like we can tell stories that are a little bit more relatable even though that's like

a weighted word you know we'll see we'll see I got the hardest question for you I'm going to bring Kai back this is the last question

I have for everyone and I think it's a good place to leave you got to do the ranking fishes, forks, honeydew, one, two, three. Where are you going? We'll start with Kai.

I think I go fishes three, honeydew two, and forks one. I think immediately gut reaction to fishes. I was like all over it. I thought it was the one. After seeing forks and like how it leads into it and Richie's storyline and his arc

and just like that being the most satisfying part of the season. for me. That one's aged incredibly well. And then for honeydew, I just was kind of blown away what they did with the Marcus character and how much more invested I was in him and how much more I cared about him making just desserts, which like in the first season, I feel like is like, oh, he's making cakes. He's making donuts. And then it's just like, now he's making these crazy, intricate, you know, dishes. And so, yeah, I think all three are incredible. Don't get me wrong. I just think fishes is I don't know. I've come down off the high a little bit.

I love it still, but I've come down off the high a little bit. Real quick, for me, I do fishes, forks, honeydew. One, two, three.

I think I'm going to do fishes honeydew forks. I get it. I get it. But here's the thing. To Kai's point, fishes might cool off. Once I do a rewatch,

this is our print limine area. I have to do a season two rewatch. On rewatch, fishes might get dinged a little bit, but still, fishes was, come on. Fish was the bullshit.

Incredible. If this was that bullshit, bro, I loved it. Van, I want to say thank you. Oh, man, so much fun. Like, this is the most fun I've had all year. Like, the bear. Incredible. Thank you for doing this for me.

Kai? Dog, Kai's the fucking man. Every single time we do a podcast with Kai, he grows. Thank you, y'all. The Riz King himself. Thank you for all you do on the boards. And guys, if you want to hear more from Van and I, you're like, damn, I wish they would do more. Check us out on the Ring of Verse feed, Midnight Boys.

Boo! Every single Wednesday. day. All right? And with that, remember, every second counts.