The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘The Bear’ Season 4 Finale: Is This the End, or A New Beginning?

Episode Date: July 1, 2025

Van and Charles update the agreement terms to recap the Season 4 finale of ‘The Bear.’ (0:00) Intro (3:53) Did the ending to this season work? (17:13) Why the final confrontation felt somewhat underwhelming (20:55) Who is Carmy without cooking? (51:00) Season 4 as a whole Email us! [e-mail] Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of ‘The Prestige TV Podcast’ and so much more! Hosts: Van Lathan and Charles Holmes Producers: Kai Grady and Donnie Beacham Jr. Video supervision: Chris Thomas Additional Production Support: Justin Sayles Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the brand new Zach Lowe show. That's right. I'm back to have the same in-depth NBA conversations you're used to. We're going to talk about the games. Yeah, the games, the X's and O's, the drama, the trades, the playoffs are coming up. And now you get to see every episode in full on video on Spotify and on my own YouTube channel. Episodes drop every Monday and Thursday with a collection of guests you're going to love. So make sure you follow and subscribe to the brand new Zach Lowe show.

on Spotify or wherever you watch or listen to your podcast. Let's go! This episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty limited time flavors. New Whole Foods, Market Peach, Apricot, Rose, Italian soda. Perfect for a picnic or brunch. As is their trending mango Yuzu chantilly cake. But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sale signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. This episode is brought to by Boar's Head. What if we told you the taste of deep fried turkey is now available at your local deli?

Well, Boar's Head just did that. Bursting with flavor. perfectly seasoned with that indulgent taste that usually means pointing your whole day around it, presenting the Friars turkey breast only from Borshead. The backyard tradition now available behind the counter. Visit your local deli today. Discover the craftmanship behind every bite. Borshead committed to craft since 1905. Welcome to the prestige TV podcast where we don't know how to smoke a cigarette, but we're doing our best.

I'm Charles Holmes. He's Van Lathen. Together we're known as the Midnight Boys. Be-boo! And we're back to discuss season four finale of the bear little housekeeping for y'all, all right? This is our last episode covering season four of the bear. But if you want some more TV goodness, make sure you tap in with our homies over at the House of R. They're covering Squid Game season three.

And the Midnight Boys were locked in this week. We got a midnight court cooking for you. All right. We got what else are we talking, Jurassic Park? Iron Hart. Iron. We're talking about Ironheart. But today we're talking about

the season finale of season four of the bear Goodbye directed by Christopher Storer Raid by Christopher's Storer before I get into the plot of this episode How are you feeling? I watched you watch this live at our desk It was a very emotional episode

Very emotional Live emotions for me And you kept pause It was so emotional You kept pausing and turning to Jomi and food shaming him Laughing at the food He's lunch choices

there's a bit that I like to do, a gimmick, if you will. I have a lot of different gimmicks. But when someone's eating, I like to watch them eat and go, yeah, take a bite of that. That's my biggest pet peeve. That pisses me. It's like you're eating, somebody's eating a burger, and you're watching them.

You're like, hey man, why don't you take a bite of that burger? They're already eating it. Don't want you to take a bite of that burger. For some reason, when someone is eating something, if you ask them to eat it, they'll be like, they don't want to do it. But it's even worse when it's like a burrito or a burger because I'm just like, there's no way to like eat that shit and look fly.

Like you just are like, get in there. I started doing this back in the day with shrimp poeboys. We would get shrimp poe boys from from Rainbow Market, Gardier, Baton Rouge. We usually he's in. We sit down and we eat them. And, you know, somebody would be tearing their pooh boy up. I'd be like, oh, man, handle that shrimp pole boy. Get in there.

And for some reason, it just bothers people. And it's funny to me. So annoying. But the plot of this episode of the bear, goodbye. Everything finally comes to a head as Carmie reveals to Sid that he's leaving her in charge of the restaurant.

Carms' reasoning is that he's fallen out of love with cooking and doesn't know who he is as a person without it. Sidney doesn't take the news well and posits that Carmen is being self-destructive and leaving the restaurant behind just as it's starting to get off the ground. Then Carmen, Sydney finally discussed how she was very close to jumping ship

to work with Shapiro. This process is then repeated with Richie, who finds out that Carm did in fact show up at Mikey's funeral but left before anyone could see him. Simi says the only way she'll take over at the bear is if Carm adds Richie to the ownership group alongside her in Sugar. And we leave the episode with Sugar hugging

a very raw Karmie as a clock that's been ticking all season finally counts down. With all that being said, Van did they land the plane? They did. Wasn't a smooth landing. It was a rocky landing. I don't know if they landed the plane.

It was very rocky to me. So let me tell you something. Let me tell you the way I look at this. I liked this episode. I don't buy what happened in this episode narratively. What part? Karmie leaving the bear seems like it serves the business of television more than it serves the television show.

Okay. It serves the fact that for this season to have steadied the show, which I think that it did. Yeah. and reestablish some things about the show, which I think that it did. There wasn't really a real dramatic guillotine hanging over the show.

So they kind of jinnied something up. You would have thought that perhaps whether or not the bear was going to make it, in terms of the countdown, would have been the thing. But that ended up kind of being resolved to a degree a little bit. So Carmi leaving, even though it happened, you know, he wanted to change it,

the agreement, should I say, a couple episodes ago, whatever it was, and we saw that, Carmi leaving is kind of abrupt. It's not well developed. And it's kind of a stunt almost. Well, they hint, they did hint at it. No, no, no, they hinted at it, but it wasn't. something that I feel like the show really devoted a lot of time to. No.

Because it was, there were two tracks I feel like for Karmie. And the track that they spent so much time on this season was him getting out of the kitchen and reconnecting with his family, with his mother, with Claire, and coming to terms with that part of his life outside of cooking. To your point, the other track was, is this what he even wants to do? Does he want to continue being a chef? Does he find love and satire? satisfaction in it. And I tend to agree with you where I'm like, the more interesting,

the more interesting dramatic tension to me was Sid Carmi at polar ends and being like, who is going to leave, who is going to stay, can this restaurant survive? And they kind of at the end just kind of did the TV thing where it's like, of course a restaurant is going to survive, but now Carmi is this nebulous being where either it's going to be like Eric leaving that 70 show or a very prominent member leaving a show where I'm like either Jeremy Allen White isn't on

the bear or what I'm more so thinking is is this Christopher Store getting to have his cake and eat it too where he can continue the adventures of calm outside the restaurant and do the more artistic flourishes the more off the beaten path episodes

while still giving people the sitcom flavor of all your favorite characters are in one place. Like where did you net out? Because I was just like, they haven't announced that there's going to be a fifth season. There hasn't been a lot of interviews that I've seen. At the end of this finale,

where do you feel like it was going? I have no clue. I try not to mix up the business of the show with my appreciation for the show as a viewer. Yeah. Meaning I try to just look at, you know, how well is the bear rating right now? What is the critical response to the bear?

How is the buzz? All of that. Because you can get a gauge of how keen they are to bring a show that has been this type of prestige thief for FX this long. You can get a gauge on how keen they are to bring that show back by looking at all those factors. For us and the purposes of what we're doing right here in my enjoyment of a show that I've really been into. I try to just look at it as to how I feel about it. And without pontificating too much on whether or not Jeremy Allen White will come back for another season.

I'm only doing this for the purposes of this podcast. Obviously, all these questions are in my head. I'm trying to think of what's the real impact and point of what I just looked at. and I don't buy it. I enjoyed the episodes. Very emotional, very raw. There was going to be a point

where all of this stuff was going to come to a head. Yeah. His appearance at the funeral for the time that he was there. This situation with him and Sid, just him and his relationship, period. Yep. The Shapiro call.

The Shapiro call. What the partnership agreement was actually. about. All of that stuff was going to come to a head. It hit me watching some of my favorite people on TV going through all of this stuff, but I didn't feel any resolution. I never felt like there was a weight off my shoulders. I never felt like some of the other television moments you go, well, oh, wow, it was leading up to this. Didn't get there. And maybe it wasn't supposed to. This episode, goodbye, was unrealistic in a way where it's like, obviously none of this is realistic in terms of like it's all fantasy, but everything happened in this episode.

And usually I feel like the bear is very good at like kind of sewing a bunch of the tension and the storylines and the plots together throughout an episode. But it was just like, no, this is Sid, Karmie, Ritchie, in the back of the bear, just having all of the arguments at the same time. Yeah. And to me, I don't know if that was the right choice, especially for a finale, where it felt like, all right,

sit and calm, you get their turn, and they're going to talk about their working relationship, Shapiro, what they love, what they hate about each other. Okay, now it's Richie's time. Richie's going to get to talk. And then Sugar's going to get. And it felt more like watching a factory line than it did feel like a story,

like a story to your point that felt like resolved in some way. And obviously this is TV, and it continues and it continues and it's never resolved. But I did not get that like this is a finale episode. It almost felt like a bottle episode. Yeah, I mean, look, there's, as I was watching it, you saw me watching it. I'm like, wow, this is very intense. This is a lot.

Well, well acted. Well, incredibly well acted. And you start to realize they're not going to give you a break from what's happening here. You're not leaving this spot. Yep. They're not going to take you somewhere else and watch Marcus fuck around. and the facts aren't going to come in and give you any comedy. You're here.

You're in the middle of it. What I appreciated about that is I've been in that situation in arguments with people before. Yes. Or intense conversations with people before to where you go, shit. For as long as this takes, I'm right here. And I'm not moving. I can't move. This is my Sunday.

This is my Friday afternoon. it's me and her or me and him or me and them and I'm in this right now. You're in this situation. And the show did a fantastic job of making me feel that. Carmi won't let sit out. Sid won't let Carmi out. I have to say this.

You have to hear this. There's no more dancing around it. That was great. Richie, the same way, doesn't really know how to approach the conversation with Carmi, doesn't understand what Carmi's trying to say. but after a while they come to these great revelations kind of easily. Yeah.

Richie has had these things that he wanted to tell Karm for X amount of time, and he never found the motivation or the wherewithal to tell him, and then it just all comes out. And it worked on screen because it was fun and compelling in a watch, but I did not feel it. I didn't believe it. You remember almost famous? Yeah.

Okay, so the band is not fucking getting along. And there's a plot device that the plane is about to crash that makes all of them start talking about how they really feel about each other and like what they really mean and all of that stuff. And you kind of get to us, and there's some comic relief in there. And you kind of get to a situation where you go, oh, okay, kind of makes sense. and then everybody gets off the plane in there all frazzled and stuff like that. It wasn't very satisfying.

It didn't feel like I, it just felt like shit happening. I will say this. For a lot of this season, I feel like there have been, to your point, these plot devices, these constructs where it's like the biggest one was the clock counting down. And that's what they, like, Store and Co were telling the audience like, all right, they have X amount of time for the bear to. to continue and to be successful.

And even that felt a little bit like, oh, that wasn't really the most important thing. Oh, no, the clock was counting down to this moment. It wasn't counting down to the end of the restaurant. It was counting down to this moment. But when we get to this moment, to your point, it felt a little bit artificial. Like the reality of how, I agree with you,

the reality of how people are you in that moment where it's like, we're not leaving. Sydney and Carmi and Carmi and Richie were always leading to this moment. But there was a point where I was just like, but why tonight? Like, what was it about tonight that this was the moment? Right.

And I don't know if they really set that up well. We don't even get to see, and this is an artistic choice, what happened in the kitchen. We just get the two of them talking like, you were ignoring me the entire night that doesn't feel good, what's going on. Right.

And part of me almost kind of wanted. To see what was what precipitated there? You know what I'm saying? because what was the last episode before this? Sorry, we took the weekend. It's the one when Marcus gets his chefness at the end. Yeah, so that's, to me, a little even jarring. Where it's just like, I left that episode being like,

oh, okay, they kind of figured it out. Marcus is now one of the best new chefs. It seems like Uncle Jimmy and Computer have figured out that there is potentially a way to keep this financially going. It's like, cool, cool, cool, cool. We don't get to really see any of kind of the after. math of that, we just get, they both walk out of the door and we're right into the argument.

Which works narratively for the episode. I don't know if it works for the season. Right. It makes me almost, I ding the season a little bit more after this episode. Yeah, because him leaving the bear is a fucking gigantic thing. It's a huge thing. It doesn't feel gigantic. It doesn't feel like that big of a deal.

It doesn't. It feels like a life-altering, life-altering decision made lowercase. Yes. You know, it doesn't feel like that big of a deal. I'm like, okay, well, so he's gone. So he just decided he couldn't cook anymore. He was cooking for all of these reasons that were outside of his actual love for cooking.

Cooking was an escape. The obsession was an escape. And he continued to stack up challenges to go back and get that feeling. And he doesn't want to feel that way anymore. So now he's gone. on, there also comes a point in watching shows like this, particularly workplace shows where we have jobs. Yes.

We have passions. We have goals. As people, we understand what it's like to sacrifice for our passions, to sacrifice for our goals. Now, doubt I'm as good at anything as Karmie is at cooking. But still, it's like, for you to make such a monumental choice about your life, Oh, no. What's he going to do now?

Is he, is what, he's going to be a paper boy? Is he going to be a blogger? Like, he's going to be a food critic. Like, what's going to happen? Like, they didn't give us anything. It was, there was tell and tell. There was no show. So when you look at the entire season,

it's a season where a lot of really dramatic things happened, but then were resolved immediately. Yeah. Well, can I ask you this? Because I don't want to leave your point too fast. I had watched this entire season being on, at least for Karmie's journey, being like, okay, well, sugar is noticing that he's falling out of love with cooking and is the show and the writers and part of the engine of this season trying to tell us, what do you do when the thing

that helps you through life helps you through trauma and abuse is no longer that thing? And I'm like, that's interesting. But the minute he started talking, and this is probably good writing, the minute he started talking to Sid and Sid's face is kind of like I don't love my job all the time. I don't love cooking all the time. She starts making very valid arguments where I was just like I almost got taken out of the show where I was just like yeah, Carmen is acting kind of like a little bitch.

Not to be that. No, no, I get it. But I mean, they told us that he was falling out of love with it. They didn't make the case though. That is, you said it. They did not make the case. I didn't leave this. I throughout the. whole season, I could understand that he was falling out of love with cooking, but they almost made it seem too black and white, like 0,100, where I'm like, this is all a scale.

I did not know that he was this out of love with cooking. You know, I thought there, I thought that there was still some road. And I'll ask you this, I don't even know if I believe in the gigantic decision that they're making, where I'm like, all right, we still kind of have this Michelin Star hanging. over our head. Karmie is like I'm not leaving until we get the restaurant financially to a place and then I'm going.

So I'm just like, if we get a season five and it's a pump fake and Jeremy Allen White is just in is just in the bear still cooking, there is going to be a part of me where I was just like, wait, what was all that for then? Right. You know what I mean? I mean, to be honest with you, you look at this season

as a kind of proof of concept that they could do the show without them. Because a lot of the drama, humor, all of that stuff this season, doesn't have much to do with Karmie. He still is the center of it, and it's still his POV and all of that. But this was, he wasn't doing the heavy lifting in this season that he was doing in seasons past. So if they're looking to do the show without him and bring everybody back, which once again, you know, we're talking about this huge, in movies that is about to take place. And you're seeing fucking Richie as Ben Grimm.

Carmies Bruce Springsteen. I was literally like I can't count the number of things. Everywhere doing everything. So, you know, a part of this might just be the old Big Bee business happening. But I don't know. I watched it and I was like, huh, what a good half hour. One-act play of the bear. Yes.

Like, what a good half-hour one-act play of the bear. Do I believe that the show did enough to make me believe that Karmie, who has completely oriented his life around being a fantastic chef, is just going to leave and not cook anymore? Have they showed anything else that can replace what cooking is in his life? I mean, was that the reason why they were springing? in his love of architecture and him on his days off going to a museum or like when he's talking about like in previous seasons it seemed like he enjoyed decorating the restaurant and building

the restaurant and what chairs go like more than he loved the food so have they I feel like they have been sprinkling that he does have other interests he just doesn't know them but once again I'm like over a season of fucking television it's you got to do a little bit more work you I know what I'm saying is, yeah, I know he has other interests. Michael Jordan loves cigars. You know what I'm saying? Like, he has other interests. Michael Jordan liked to play golf.

Michael Jordan likes cigars. Like, if you know about MJ, you know his other shit that he liked to do, play a little golf cigar. Maybe put down a little wager. Okay, like there's other things he likes to do. But the center of his life, how he measures himself, his religion is basketball. Yeah. And if I'm thinking about Michael Jordan, when Michael Jordan gave up basketball for the small amount of time that he gave him up to Chicago Legends, we're talking about right now, Carmie and Jordan. The reason why he did it, and, you know, all this is what I'm talking about real life now.

I know this was a tremendous tragedy for the Jordan family and for the sports world. But the reason why he did it was that type of earth-shattering perspective realignment thing, an intense, immense tragedy regarding someone who we had always seen with Michael, which was his father. So when he decides that he's going to take time off and not play basketball, a lot of people went, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Like it makes sense that he would do that.

Like it makes sense that, I mean, there's another way to look at it too, but like it makes sense. It needs to clear his head in some way. How do you clear your head from something that terrible happening to you, from something that formative happening to you? Like, re-formative meaning because it's like 30-year-old guy when it happens or whatever it is. Like, how do you make sense of that? Like, what do you do?

Like, how do you get your life back on track when something that happens and it's everywhere? So, you know, maybe you go play minor league baseball or something like that. And then you come back to whatever, come back to the thing that you love when you can breathe again, right? It just didn't happen here. And I'm not saying that it had to. I'm not saying that something that tragic had to happen. Maybe him reconciling with his mother was supposed to be that. Maybe this show is saying that's not how life is.

That sometimes decisions just happen. And sometimes people just realize what's best for them. And maybe it's the culmination. Maybe it's Claire. Maybe it's mom. Maybe it's the conversation he has with his uncle. Maybe it's him realizing that things were just markedly different than he thought that they were.

And he's different than he thought that he was. All that could be true. If that's the case, I needed a couple of more episodes, or I needed, I just didn't feel it when it happened. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound terseptitide may be able to help. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity. Or some adults with overweight who also have weight related medical problems to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5 or 15 milligram injection.

Zep bound contains terseptide and should not be used with other terseptide containing products or any GLP1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pens or reuse needles. Don't take up allergic to it. Or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck.

Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia if you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulfonal urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worse than kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-9-9-9 or visit zepbounds.lily.com. You said this place was steps from the water. We just haven't found the steps yet. How much did we save? Enough. Enough to get lost.

Or you could book a stay with Hilton. Welcome to your oceanfront room. Just steps from the water. The Hilton sale is on now. Book on Hilton.com. or the Hilton app and save up to 20% to get the stay you expected. When you want savings, not surprises. It matters where you stay. Hilton, for the stay. It's time to refresh your yard during spring backyard days at the Home Depot. Get low prices guaranteed on propane grills starting $179, like the next grill 3-burner gas grill.

Or get $50 off a select Weber Spirit grill and bring big flavor to your backyard. Then set the scene with Hampton. and Bay string lights that bring it all together. Shop Spring backyard days for seven days at the Home Depot. Now through May 6th. Exclusion supplies to home depot.com slash price match for details. If we're giving the writing credit, do you think that what they're trying to say?

Because I do agree with you where it's like traditionally you kind of need something more explosive to lead to what is also another explosive decision, which is I'm leaving the thing that I love and I built. But you could also say that when Richie realizes that Karm came to the funeral and left, I think that that was part of the show being like, the grieving process is not a straight line. Some people grieve right after the death.

And then it takes people years. Like when you talk to therapists or grief counselors, it's like some people, it takes them three, four, five years, 10 years, 15 years, and it hits them. And then it's like it happened yesterday. And I think partially is that happening to Karmie? It could be. That's a very astute point.

He could really just be starting to process the grief that he feels for his brother. And not just his brother, but we've talked about his brother. We've talked about his dad, the absence of his mother. He could be grieving a lot of different aspects of the life that he thought that he wanted to have. And maybe the first stage of that. And look, we've also been this scene that we haven't talked about this season. it was a great scene as with that lady from

Sorry to Bother You know the white lady I'm sorry to bother you We're seeing She is They're in A support group The support group that Carmen goes to Oh yes that was a great

Yeah yeah Fantastic scene I don't know why we missed it She's talking about this incident That happened with her brother What happened was She's leaving her brother Struggled with addiction

And she told her brother to water her plants. Yeah. And she comes back and her worst fears about leaving him by himself or realized. A bunch of addicts are in her house. Naked people on the couch. Throw up everywhere, yeah. Empty pizza boxes.

The whole nine, they've obviously been raging on benders and the whole nine. They get to, she gets to her brother. Her brother is in the bathtub fully dressed. not where she thought it was going to be, which is OD'd somewhere. She finds him in the bathroom fully dressed. She sits down and she looks at him, she starts crying,

and he says her, brilliantly, brilliantly written monologue, by the way, brilliantly written monologue. He looks at her and he says, I water the plants. Right? Yeah.

And when I watch that, I watch that like three times in a row. Right. The point of that to me is her talking about the things that she knew she, the thing that, the stuff that she thought meant stability. What she thought meant stability was him watering the plants. Yeah. That was the thing she was afraid of. She would think if he can remember the water the plants or if he can water the plants, if he has enough responsibility, enough consistency to water the plants, then that

must mean he's okay. Yeah. But that doesn't mean. that. There's no one thing that means you're okay. So if you're an excellent cook, if you're great at your job, if you're always on time, there's no one thing that means you're okay because he did water the

plants, but everything else was fucked up. And for Karmie, he was a great chef, is a great chef, but everything else was fucked up. And I knew that that's what that meant, but I thought we would resolve it

in a more linear way. Or I thought I would know when it was time to begin to resolve it. I didn't. I didn't see it coming. It didn't. Not only did I not see it coming. I never,

the show never got me to the point to where I felt like it had to happen. And that's the thing. It's like, okay, well shit, it's really fucking happened to Karmie right now. Like, Karmie is, it's,

whatever, it's just, he just kind of, relented over the course of three or four episodes, someone would say, give me less components, he'd be like, yep. Someone would say, hey, do it this way, he would be like, yep. Someone would say, yeah, he just relented. And it was in, maybe things will change after the immediacy of the episode

kind of washes over me. And I go, hmm, maybe this was a different way to tell this story. But for right now, it kind of landed with a little bit of a thud. I still love this season. I love this episode, but it landed with a little bit of a thud. So to you then, what do you think? the significance of Carmie picking up a cigarette

and smoking again because what I realized in that moment where I was like it doesn't feel like I don't know if the show is operating in this gray area for me where could you argue that Sid is potentially right

and that Carmi is pushing away his family, these people something that's finally going good and potentially that, like, he's doing things for the right reasons, but to me when he picks up the cigarette again, I'm like, you're doing this because you do want to save the restaurant, but you are going about it in the least effective way possible in almost a very distra. I felt over the course of this episode,

I'm like, Carmie's going about this in a very destructive way. Like, there was a lot, like, he could have had a conversation with Sid about like, here's what I'm thinking about, like, myself and my role, this is why I want to leave. I want to change this. What do you think about? it. Same thing with Richie. Being like, A, Rich, like, da-da-da. Instead of doing that,

basically they have to catch him in it. You know what I'm saying? It's not an ambush, but it starts to feel like that. Because he's like freaking out. He's like, yo, give me time.

Let me explain. And I'm like, to me, the part of the cigarette is just like, is he actually going back to some of his old ways? He is. I think it kind of illustrates

that he just can't be at this point in his life a fully functional person. He kind of emotionally rods from Peter to pay Paul. Yeah. So, you know, as you get older, what you start to realize is, you know,

I spent my entire 30s at TMZ. Spent my entire 30s at TMZ ripping and running, being a bad partner, being a bad son, being, like, burning myself out, like, trying to be up on everything. And, no, I wasn't like, breaking a whole bunch of stories because I didn't want to talk to people. You know, it's very difficult to talk to somebody after they've had a DUI.

Because, like, a celebrity talking to you about their DUI, like, after they've had it, because other people would talk to reps. Yeah. But some of these people, I know these people. And so, like, I would see them around town and stuff like that. So I'd get them on the phone, man. What happened? Brough, man.

Yo, you ever had, funny, I won't name a celebrity, but I was like, yo, bro. Like, you know they got you is the whole thing. It's like, hey, man, you ever had a fireball? I'm like, yeah, this happened. He was like, I'm like, yeah, I had a fireball. He was like, man, them fireballs, they taste like peppermint. I'm like, yeah, I'm aware of what, like, what are you talking about? He's like, man, I was on new fireballs.

And I just burst into laughter. So you mean to tell me, you this kind of, you got this kind of career going. and you get a DUI and what you're going to tell me on the phone is, man, I was on them fireballs and I didn't even know I was as drunk.

That's what they took. And I didn't really even know what the joint was then because I didn't drink them in college. But also, what celebrities drinking? Like, come on. Nah, this was,

you'd have to know that this was at, so this was at a party, somebody was leaving a party in the valley and they were going back to where they live. And at this party in the valley, I think maybe the people might have been a little bit younger or whatever, and they were on the fireballs. They didn't realize I fucked thought they were.

They were taking a fire. They would hit the fire. The fireball was hitting them. Right. So, but for me, but that call was happening at some weird random time where I should have been paying attention to something else. Like I was with me and collegi or at dinner,

and I'm getting that call. I have to take that call. So then I have to go outside and I have to massage this person. and then I have to because when they first pick up, they're going to be mad. How could you do this? You should help me not make the site and all of this stuff. I can't do any of that.

Like I have to talk to them. It's going to take a while. Yeah. And that's coming out of my life. Like that's taking a chunk out of my life. That like even me to be able to come back and know that, that I'm saying this call right now is more important than this dinner with this person. This call right now is more important than anybody else who call while I was doing that.

and if you're in that life, that's the way that it's going down. So when I watch them have, when I watch Carmi and when I watch them have that conversation, the cigarette almost was like a hot potato. It almost was like, Carmi was going to smoke the cigarette. She's trying to smoke the cigarette. They're trying to share the weight in there. They're trying to share the weight. They're trying to share the emotionality of this.

But it can't be shared. That's why when sugar comes in at the end, she just breaks it. it down. She sees them. It's all empathy. It's all emotion. It's tears. It's a hug. Roll credits. Because everyone else is, they're trying to share it.

And maybe they're trying to disperse it for us. And they're trying to make us, they're trying to give us Richie's stuff and Sid's stuff. Sid is smoking for the first time because she is in this situation with the Bears ados for the first time. It's almost like she's taking communion. Yeah. So

it's, it's, It's like all of this stuff is happening and I'm watching it and I get it. I get it. I get it. I totally get it. I relate to people who have been too obsessed with career. I relate to all of that. But it's just TV.

Honestly, you brought up the Godfather in one of the prior episodes. This does feel like to your point like this is a baptism for Sid. This is a communion where it's just like you decided to be part of the family. this is what being part of the family is and means. Being let down by Karmie. Yeah. But also what I think is so true about it. And this is why it's like I don't want to like take a complete shit on the episode.

Because I do think it is like a very, very interesting big swing is that there is some truth because I've been through it. You've probably been through it where it's like when you're the person who's finally been burnt out and you're just like it's an emergency. Like I can't do this. I can't be here. I can't work here. I've had both things happen. I've had members of my family being like, just give me to like get out of there,

whatever. And then the people you work with being like, no, we support you, we love you, but like we're doing something special. Like, we're your family too. Like didda, dida da da. And that thing where it's like, I get where Sid is coming from. Where it's just like, well, I'm your family.

I've just become like, I've just invested in you again. And you're leaving me with this. Yeah. And even the Shapiro shit, to me was very, very telling because it was like, when Carmie does that little bit like,

go Shapiro, I'm better than Shapiro. I was like, oh. Well, he did, it was funny for, that was funny, he's like, you're better than him? Yeah. Smoke him. And you do too. And then she goes, fuck off.

Because he was just, he was letting her know, if you want to get your shit off. And you want to go and do your own thing, that's not the way to go. And he also, that was the most interesting part of the episode. I'm glad that you brought that up. He knew the whole time.

Yeah. And as the audience, I guess we kind of get that sense after he gets a text. As the audience, we get the feeling that she's hiding this bit secret from him and she's got this big decision to make. But he goes, hey, you know, I've known him a long time. Like, I've known, like, I almost felt like he was just like, I thought he was going to get surprised by the call. it almost felt like he's just like, I knew Shapiro was sniffing around. Yeah, he's like, I known him for a long time.

And the way he looked at it was, I mean, that shit's beneath you. Yeah, this nigga not one of us. I mean, seriously, that's the way he was looking at it. He was looking like he found Shapiro to be such an unsurious challenger for Sid's services that he didn't even freak out about it because he knew she wouldn't do that.

He's like, yeah. He's like, I'm better than him. You're better than him, too. Like, yeah, you could have done this. You could do all kinds of stuff. But I think him having that back and forth with her was him reiterating to her that he really does believe that she's good enough to run the restaurant without him. Let's say Carmi didn't believe that Sid was good enough to run the bear without him. Would he have left anyway?

I'll say the problem with that question is I don't think he even would have got I don't even think he would have made the bear if Sid was not there like I think that that's the thing that they've never understood he says he says you're the bear in that episode like I think he was just like when he finds the money at the end of season one

and he kind of has a light bulb of like what we're going to do I don't think we ever discussed this you not want to know what I really think happened the bear was his dream was Mikey's dream with Karm and I think once Mikey

died that dream was gone and I think the minute Sid walks through that door and he sees how good of a chef he is that relationship he becomes the older brother

he becomes the Mikey and I think he's like in the same way Mikey was just like no you're the bear you're the future of this family you can do this, I think Carmie is being the Mikey to Sid being like,

you can do this and Sid cannot see it. It takes Sid so, because like, it's the same thing when Carmen is surprised when his uncle is just like, yo, he talked about you all the time. He remembered the dishes, he remembered everything you said. I think that they're having that

relationship dynamic of like, no matter what Sid hears from Karm, it's never enough because she's the little sister. How do you reconcile that thought with the fact that it was only Mikey's death that brought Karmie back to Chicago. Here's the thing. I think that Karmie, I think Karmie was always on a crash course, whether

Mikey was here or not, to come back to Chicago. I actually think it hurt him that he had to leave. And that's what makes this whole thing funny about him leaving the bear. Seems like he got pushed away. That's what I'm saying. That's his major guilt. His major guilt is I wasn't around for Mikey. Like he pushed me out because remember,

Mikey didn't want him to work at the restaurant. He's like, get the fuck out of year. Sugar is giving him money. People are like, his whole family, it seems, basically did something where they were just like, hey, we're all kind of working in tandem to get Carmie out of Chicago. Honestly, that kind of explains a lot of the way that he acts

because he's kind of a spoiled brat a little bit. They treat him like the baby. Yeah, right. And he kind of acts that way, right? And that's another part of it that I'm actually thankful that they tell the story the way they have to tell it. This entire thing is this man looking for the right way to grow up. Yeah. Is the right way to grow up to pour into your ridiculous talents?

We only do this with talented people, by the way. The only group of people that we care how they grow up is talented people. if you're not talented, no one gives shit. Hey, my God, he's 19 years old. He's just got 30 million from the NBA. Who's going to take care of them? Do I mean, 19-year-olds? Need somebody to take care of them?

Need somebody to give them. You don't care about them. We all, like, this is like such a low brow take. But I'm like, Carmi, I'm not saying, I'm breaking news to everyone. Yes, when people are blessed with these talents and these opportunities, people act like it's the biggest tragedy in the world when they don't succeed. And when you have people that just need jobs and stability and all of that, we fucking treat them as completely disposable.

So Karmie's entire family realizes that he's a fantastic chef. Maybe they don't realize that he's a fantastic chef, but I think that they do realize that he's a fantastic chef. And so they take a lot of shit off this guy. Yeah. Like, you could not come around if you did not come to one of, if we had a family funeral and you just didn't show up to that bitch.

The people I've, this has happened in my life, the siblings and the people who have not shown up at certain funerals, that shit still gets brought up. It's like a little like, you ain't shit, which is why when Richie is that mad,

I felt that in my bones because to Richie, his belief is like, hey yo, car me. Like I think of you differently because you didn't show up. And then the minute where it's like,

no, I did. that is something. They almost come to blows. Yeah. Because Richie's like, why are you fucking with me? Right, they almost come to blows. They do that weird white boys.

You know how white boys put their heads together? Why y'all do that? Why, why, CT? CT, why do white boys do that? Like, when, because CT, why, like, why sometimes when white boys get ready to fight and they kind of don't really want a fight? Yeah. They, why they put their hands together like two rams?

Like, why they do that? I haven't been involved with a lot of fights, but I have to imagine it's like the toughest you can look without actually getting into a fight. That's a great answer. You can still look tough. Like we is, you know. What's the black version of that?

There used to be not to chip off my shoulder. Did y'all have that? That's kind of old. What was there? So not the chip off my shoulder. I will say this. And Baton Rouge is not much him and and Han. because like when the fight,

when people, two people know that they're about to fight, the crowd will make you fight or the old head will make you fight or whatever. It's really toxic. I can't tell you how many times there's been somebody who said would it be like, both of y'all pussy, I've been watching y'all bump your goddamn gums

for five minutes, both of y'all pussy, do something. You're fucking 42. This is, wait, so what's knocking your doctor? So knocking the chip off the shoulder is there was something that would happen where you would grab like something off the ground. It's like a rock, it's a little piece of stick

or something like that, and you put it on your shoulder and you'd be like, knock this off my shoulder. And if the person knocks it off your shoulder, then it's on. Now, you're putting them in a situation to where you're not willing to throw the first punch, maybe they're not willing to throw the first punch, but you still want to call their shit a little bit,

So you put the shit on the shoulder and you go knock that shit off my shoulder. Now this is like young. And then if you knock it off, you gotta do it. But that's the, I guess, putting their heads together. This is all races, but my favorite. Whenever anybody does it, take their shirt off,

I'm like, all right, man, we don't got to watch. Can I tell you something now? If somebody started taking their shirt off in front of me, I would hit them while they were taking the shirt off. What? Yeah, for sure. That's dirty.

Same thing if somebody's starting to take their chain off, If we took a point to where you're getting ready for the thing, and I know that a fight is happening, this used to be so much, this is also toxic, I apologize. But it would be a point to where, like, I would be so pent up and, like, actually scared, right? Scared, but the fear was more of the uncertainty, like not knowing what was going to happen.

But the kind of guy I've always been, And once I know something that's going to happen, there's a wave of calm. Like when I first started moderating panels and speaking publicly and doing all of that stuff, going up to the stage, on the way over, fear, fear, fear, get out there on the stage, see the crowd, everything's okay.

So once I know that we are fighting, I'm good. And that, taking of your shirt off, you want to fight. Or you're trying to tell everybody else that you want to fight, and I'm not about to do it. it. And so now you're trying to make me look like a hole. If I see you taking your shirt off, I'm going to hit you while you taking the shirt off. Straight up. I'm running to you while you're taking the shirt off.

I don't give a fuck. Fuck that shit. That place is dangerous, man. You got to get a couple of dubs on, whatever. How do we get on this? But so what I'm saying is that like, in that situation where that, they're really, they're releasing emotion that is so pent up. over such an intensely painful moment

in both of their lives that they could have possibly bonded over. I mean, even it broke my heart when Ritchie was just like, when Ritchie was describing his thought of how Karmie's life was going. Because he tells that story about him and Mikey going on the road trip. It was the best day. Like, it was the best day we were just driving down, listening to music, whatever. And he's like, I was like, this must be.

how Karmie is living every day and Karmie looks at him, he's just like, I was going through fucking hell. And I'm like, to bring it back, I think that that's what's funny about the Berizados is I could see all the Berizados being like, oh shit, Karmie's so talented he got out. He's living the best version of his life.

And Karmie is just like my family pushed me away. The only thing I want to do is be back in Chicago. Because that's some real shit too. When the most talented person in your family leaves, the hometown, I've seen it happen both ways where everybody's just like, yo, I know he's doing good. I know he's killing it. And then somebody else is like, fuck, I'm not near my people.

I don't know anyone. I'm scared. I'm scrapping. And like when you come back home, people want you to have this feeling of just like, tell us everything that happened. Tell us how good your life is. And you're almost like, shit, I can't really share with them that I am like, not okay. I'm struggling.

And then to add on to that fact, the person I love the most in the world died and I wasn't here. It's true. I mean, this season, if I was kind of reducing it down, it's kind of everybody growing into their roles. Richie kind of growing into the role of being the rock of that portion of the restaurant, C.A. growing into her role as the head chef of the bear,

the person that makes things better there. Yeah. Because there's a difference between the talent and the person that makes things better. and a lot of bands that you guys listen to, there's one person that is the most talented person. And then there are other people in that band that are keeping that band together.

So... And everything in sports is just like, there's the most talented person, and then there's the person where you're just like, you hear about the locker room guy. You hear about like... That person has to be talented, too. Don't get me wrong, right?

But there's normally somebody that's keeping that shit on schedule because, man, if you've been around a lot of talent in your life, and everybody listens to this, I'm sure has, there is nothing, nothing more frustrated than a highly talented person. I'll just say this, for all the people who be making fun of rappers, weed carriers, what you'll actually realize is a lot of time the weed carrier is the one person in the world when that talented person is going off the fucking deep end.

That can talk to them. That can talk to them and be like, like the manager, everybody's like, I'm not talking to anyone. They're like, hey, yo, man. Right. Like, can we? Yeah. And then sugar as the caretaker of the family.

Yeah. Sugar as something that the brasados don't seem to have had in a long time, which is somebody who cares about everybody else enough to emotionally sacrifice for them. It didn't seem like their dad was capable of it. Their mother certainly hasn't been capable of it, even though you see her trying to do it. But sugar seems like the person. that is cool enough to make room for everyone to talk to her and to care about that.

That's why it was so funny when she was going off about Franny Fack, because everyone wants Sugar's love so much, and Fack is back there, like, am I still your special little boy? She's like, no, you have devastated me. But Karmie's actually doing the thing that his mom couldn't, where it's like you could read this as, he knows he's the toxic component in this, And he's trying to remove himself before he makes things worse.

And Karmie's thing of all of that stuff is just trying to be a person. He's just trying to be a guy, a dude. And giving himself space to love, giving himself space to be vulnerable to like stop, to stop throwing his vulnerabilities into recipes. He says in the episode, he goes, there's nothing for me to pull from to draw on. Yeah.

The thing that was there to pull from, and drawn, the reason why he could take that unbelievable brow beating that he took from Joe McKell's character, the chef, the reason why that was all there is because

it was pure escapism. It was either that or going back to a place that he couldn't go back to because it was too hard. So, I mean... What they say about music, it's... You got your whole life to make your debut album

and then artists get to the second third and they don't have that thing to draw on anymore. It's like, oh, I had a lifetime of trauma and now it's just kind of like, what's the third, fourth album when you're trying to get over that shit? That's why I think that musicians, basically rappers,

they should try a new religion every three years. I've always thought this. If you're a musician, you should do a new religion every three years. No. Yeah, you should. Because I'll tell you why. Back in the day, it used to be different.

Like, you know, Led Zeppelin would write a song about fucking Lord of the Rings or some shit like that. And the fire has a more door and we're coming for you. You know what I'm saying? Like, it, like, that would, you know, but these rappers, I want to hear, I want to hear the Christian. I want to hear a Muslim. I want to hear the Muslim. I want to hear these Talmud raps. I want to hear these Hindu raps.

I want to hear. I don't want no black Israelite raps. I want to hear all of it, bro. I want to hear the new shit that you've learned. You know what I'm saying? I want to hear different shit. I want you to fuck with a cult a little bit. Kanye joined that cult that he actually started his own cult.

And then he made an album around it. And that album was kind of all right. Jesus is King? Nah, that one was not. That was a cold album. That was a cold album. That was all right. But Donda, you know, while we're talking about,

we might as well talk about what a great fucking artist Hitler was at this point. But what I'm saying is, I think, Sometimes you got to switch it up. And maybe Carmie now will, not that he's a normal guy, maybe he'll do normal guy plates. Maybe he'll go work at the Bear lunch counter. Oh, honestly, Carmi, I agree with you, a little spoiled.

Maybe he needs to be next to Ebro, sling some sandwiches. Get his fucking mind right. Or maybe he'll be a fucking bum on Claire Bear's couch. And last thing I'll ask you, will the people in Karmie's world accept him not cooking? I don't think so because if I know anything about just life and what makes good tension and good storytelling, there's nothing that the people in people in your life hate most or more

than you being in that in-between zone. They don't like it when you're good at something and you don't do it. Your family. Don't like it when you're really good at something and you don't do it. They do not like that. Because it is their conception of you, the conception even that not just the world, but Carmis family has of them, is we understand you when you are in the kitchen cooking. That is you at your best self.

Even when you're freaking out whatever, to your point, people love talent. And they can say through all the drug abuse and addiction that this family has gone through and all the trauma and everything, it was worth it. We see it on the plate. It was worth it. And I'm wondering when there's no longer that plate, how do people keep,

do people give Carby the benefit of the doubt when his talent is not the thing that he's selling him? I wouldn't. We shall see. Because when he's not cooking, he's nothing but, uh, chain smoking.

Moody, emo, Emos. Yeah. Like, the best thing of the bottom is that, like, he can do all of this stuff and make a great plate. Now you're going to have to go out here and be a person. Good luck, Carmie. That first time, you know, your uncle, he'd be pulling in them checks and he retires.

And he's sticking, he's around the house too much. He's going to be her enclavement. He's like, yeah. Get a job. Claire about to be a doctor. Telling you. Or she just finished her residency or whatever. Yo, guys, that has been our coverage of the Bear season four.

Thank you so much for supporting us, listening to us. Thank you to Van. Thank you to our boy behind the keys, the board, CT. Thank you to Kai for all of his work this season editing. Kai is our man. And thank you so much to, you know, the czar of prestige TV, Justin Sales. And, you know, we'll be back very soon. We're going to take CT out to get in the fight.

CT, your goal for this summer is to get in a fight. We're going to get, I'm going to bring somebody. All the white boys at the ringer. My goal is we're going to get him into some fights. All of them. I want all of y'all to fight. Actually, Steve, we could do a white boy ringer's fight club and we could preside over it. Rob Mahoney, Steve C.T.

Rob Mahoney taking everybody, I think. I think Rob Mahoney. Rob Mahoney got perfect posture of reach the whole nine. Ryan Rissillo ain't in this? Ryan, if Ryan, Ryan can't be in it because if Ryan got in it, Ryan probably going to wreck everybody. Ryan would be flossing with it. Ryan Diesel, bro. This episode is brought to you by Netflix's remarkably bright creatures.

What if a Pacific octopus held the key to a mystery that could heal your heart? Well, that's Tova's reality. An elderly widow working at an aquarium. Tova forms an unlikely friendship with the crumudgeonly, Marcellus, whose remarkable intelligence leads her to a life-changing discovery. Remarkably bright creatures is now playing. Only on Netflix. Mother's Day has a way of sneaking up on you. But when it does,

1,800 flowers makes it easy to send mom something beautiful, thoughtful, and worthy of everything she does. Right now, with double blooms from 1,800 flowers, order one dozen roses and get another dozen for free. It's a bigger gesture, with fresh, beautiful flowers arranged to make Mother's Day feel as special as she is. Make Mother's Day feel bigger with double blooms at 1,800flowers.com slash Spotify.

That's 1,800flowers.com, slash Spotify.