The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘The Crown’ Hall of Fame: “Tywysog Cymru”

Episode Date: November 6, 2023

In anticipation of the next and final season of ‘The Crown,’ Jo and Amanda dig into the best episode (according to us) of the series, “Tywysog Cymru,” in which a young Prince Charles travels to Wales to assume his royal title of Prince of Wales. Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Amanda Dobbins Producer: Sasha Ashall Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Welcome back into the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson. Joining me today is an old friend, but a new partner on the Prestige Experience. It's Amanda. Davenz. Hi, Amanda. How are you doing? I am so excited, Joanna. I'm thrilled to be here. I'm thrilled to finally be able to cover some true prestige television as opposed to some of the borderline or recently demoted prestige television shows that I have previously been on this feed for. And I'm thrilled to be here with you. A delighted as always. I love that we got some early shots in at the morning show. We are here, however, to talk about the Crown. And not only are we talking about the Crown today, we were talking about a Hall of Fame episode of the Crown. This is all leading up to the debut of the final season of the Crown, which is doing a split final season. They're dropping four episodes on November 16th, And then six episodes on December 14th. And Amanda and I are covering all of that in a very special prestige TV binge drop kind of way,

which you will just follow along our schedule as we do that. But I'm really excited. You and I have never even like actually talked about the crown, but you were sold to me, Amanda Dobbins, as like our number one crown head, royals expert. What's your relationship with the crown? That is absolutely shamefully true. I, well, liking the Crown, I do not think is shameful.

I think it is one of the best television shows currently in operation. And I'm very excited and also very sad about its final season, which is not, I don't really have that relationship to many television shows where I am, where I've seen every episode multiple times and I'm really like deep in the world. But I do have that with the Crown, both because it's a wonderfully constructed piece of television and also, and this gets to the shameful part, because I'm like a royals nerd. You're a royalist. Yeah. So let me just be clear right now. I'm not like a royalist. I'm not a monarchist. I don't, first of all, I'm not a British citizen. So I don't really have a say in the

matter and my tax dollars aren't going towards it. Right. But I do understand the absurdity of having a royal family in the year 2023 or frankly, in any year if you want to get historical and political, which we may, as this episode goes on. We sure might. So I'm just fascinated by them. And I always have been, I am really, really also fascinated by celebrity. And I do a whole podcast about it with Julietette Lemmon called Jam Session. And it, you know, pops up in the way that we talk about movies and TV.

And I think it actually is a big part of history, even if it's looked, you know, not always covered that significantly. But I came of age during the Princess Diana People Magazine 90s years. And so I went all in, you know? That's just kind of when I was learning not only about the royals, but also what famous people are and what People Magazine are and like the media. And then I became a huge Tina Brown stand. And Tina Brown is the former editor of Vanity Fair and the New Yorker who wrote a biography about Princess Diana called the Diana Chronicles,

which I think is the best book about celebrity or at least late last century celebrity that exists. So it's kind of like I came to the Royals as also a way of understanding how media and celebrity works. And so I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed, but like not in a healthy way. But like also not in a, you know, worshiping them as if they were God sort of way,

but just sort of like a celebrity fascination way as like a taking a temperature on our culture kind of way. And I think you and I are pretty similar in that regard. Well, I will say this. So we are close to a age and so grew up with what happened with Diana was just like this seismic thing that happened in all of our lives. And then we also grew up at a time when like Prince William was this just absolute, like, darling of the world. And I am not a royalist, again, a U.S. citizen, so who cares what I think, really. But, like, I am an anti-royalist, actually, like, politically anti-royalist. But I did work at Vanity Fair for eight years. And in working there, you know, as you mentioned, Tina Brown, the most famed bagpher of Diana has her roots.

in Vanity Fair. And so then Vanity Fair just has this like strong royal strain of coverage. And so just by osmosis, I learned so much about the Royals during my time there. And the first four seasons of the Crown aired while I was a Vanity Fair employee. So it's just like, there's just no way for me to separate it. And so then here we are where I am completely, along with you, fascinated, enthralled by, entangled in this show, entangled in these people's lives in a, I guess, yes, unhealthy way, while also being just like so anti-royalty. It's a really interesting. It's all absurd, right? Like, it's actually, it is absurd in the basic idea that, you know, a divine being picked one person to be his, like, the representative on earth and to, you know,

form governments and collect taxes, you know, like that, like, whatever. And that then that right would be passed down, like, hereditary. Like, that doesn't make any sense, even in the 1400s or whatever. But then that it still exists in 20, 23. And that they just staged a coronation, right? And they just, like, trotted up an old man, Prince Charles, now King Charles, who were going to talk about some, you know, a lot today on this podcast. And we're like, you know, here's like the rod of mercy or whatever the hell and sit on this

really old chair and now you're special, it is so preposterous and of another time that you can't like rationally be like, oh yeah, this is a good idea. But what, or this makes sense or this is like how we do things in the modern world. I think that the crown, the show understands that. It's about that almost. It's about that in a lot of ways. And it is also about it's exploring how silly it is and what it has meant, what the royal family has meant in terms of history, but also what the royal family means in terms of entertainment and also what you can do in a storytelling sense, for lack of a better word, with this very archaic construction that is still sticking around. And it's like, it examines not only the fact of the royal family in our modern life and all

of that absurdity. But it examines in this episode, and I think throughout the season, you know, the connection to Shakespeare and the connection to our understanding of history and our understanding of culture as history and these stories that we tell and how in one century there, it's like the greatest ever literature that's ever happened. And then in this century, we're like, these are a bunch of weirdos, you know? So yeah. And I think, yeah, and I, what I love about Peter Morgan, who has made, like, his, the creator of the crown, who has made his, like, entire career basically exploring this theme through theater, through films, like, the queen and, like, you know, he's just, like, exploring and especially just through the lens of Elizabeth herself.

Right. Exploring this idea again and again and again, refining his ideas of, like, what this kind of power, duty, the symbol of the monarch, and then how that symbol of the monarch, and then how that symbol of the monarch bumps up against, you know, the events of this past century and the ways in which our ideas, our larger ideas have changed, but also the ways in which the media has changed. A huge, you know, we just got off the first, you know, well, the second Diana season. And watching that last season, the Diana season bump up against tabloid culture. in the way that, like, we had already seen them bump up against, like, the innovation of, like,

television broadcasts. A television broadcast is part of the episode we're going to talk about today, which I, without further ado, I should just say, we went back and forth on, but actually, did we really? No, we didn't. This is a very quick decision. It was very clear to both of us, that it should be episode, season three, episode six of the crown, which I'm going to now let Joanna pronounced because it is in Welsh and she she Googled more aggressively than I did. And I am I am Welsh. My middle name is the Welland. Do you know that I also am Welsh, that my middle name is Knox, which I believe is Welsh? Amazing. So watch us butcher this name. It is, I believe, Tuasog Khumri, which translates to

Prince of Wales and is season three, episode six, as Amanda said, the one where Prince Charles goes to Wales and learns Welsh. And this is the introduction of Josh O'Connor as Prince Charles. And it was the first one I, we were texting about this, it's the first one I wrote down. And then I sort of like started wondering about a few other options. And then you just sort of responded immediately like, no, that's the one I was going to say as well. So yeah. You and I were both tangoing with should we pick something from seasons one or two, which are the Claire Foy seasons because one of the crowned the TV shows innovations is that it has recast all of the roles every two years to better represent the passing of 65, 70 years,

because this show starts in the 1940s. And it is allegedly, it's going up to like 2011 or 12 or something. They're quitting before Megan and Harry, which I think is cowardly. But whatever. So seasons one and two were about the young queen, and they were played by, she was played by Claire Foy. who is one of my favorite work in actors. And I would see that seasons, you and I kind of agree that seasons one and two are the most, are like, they're my favorite.

I'm not going to speak for you. You're here. You have a microphone. You speak for yourself. So I was torn. I was like, oh, should I pick an episode from my favorite seasons and my favorite queen in order to be representative. But then we both quickly realized, like, this is the episode. It is, it does all of the things.

things that the crown does so well all together at once at kind of like peak form. It's both representative and exemplary. I completely agree. So this episode was directed by Christian. Now I'm going to perhaps push her another word, but is Swoshow, I think, who's directed a bunch of crown episodes. And then written by James Graham and Peter Morgan. Graham is a playwright. Peter Morgan also obviously a playwright, but this is like a very, not just because there's literal Shakespeare in it, but just sort of the like two people talking in rooms

sort of establishment of the episode feels very theatrical. Yeah, and it's compared to other episodes. Very structured, which is a thing I like about the entire series is like Peter Morgan, as you said, is, is a playwright and is writing focused. And so it's like episode 10 echoes, You know, series finale echoes the season, you know, premiere and the middle episode, there's a sense of, you know, knows it's the middle episode and there's a sense of pacing and their structure. And we got to get from here to here. And what they include is very intentional. What they don't include is very intentional because you can't actually do 70 years of history, even on a Netflix budget. But everything is so chosen and specific and planned. out, which I don't know. I guess I'm just a control freak. I find that incredibly soothing. All right. So I'm going to do like a tiny, tiny little overview recap of the episode just

in case folks haven't rewatched this episode recently. Essentially, this takes place. We start three months before the July 1969 investiture, meaning the official appointing of the title of Prince of Wales to Charles. Sure. Yeah, of course. Everyone knows that. Clearly, July 1969 and blazing in your memory, right? So this is the one where, you know, freshly minted laborer prime minister, Harold Wilson, suggests that Charles go live in Wales and learn the language in the hopes of temper,

the, quote, growls of, quote, separatist stirrings. Charles gets a nationalist tutor in the guise of Edward Teddy Millward, played by Mark Lewis Jones, and learns not just about the Welsh culture, but also about how much he's missing when it comes to warmth and affection of both family and tutelage, because we've seen in previous episodes, Charles schooling as well.

And this is, as Amanda said in terms of being exemplary, not only in quality, but just sort of of what the Crown can do. This is just such a prime example of the Crown's ability to let the personal stand in for the national slash political and vice versa, because it draws not a subtle, a very direct parallel between Charles's frustration, isolation and the way that the Welsh movement for home rule bumped up against the larger monarchical sort of, you know, removed English rule, their frustration to have an English Prince of Wales, etc. Can we start? Let's start with Josh O'Connor. This is his debut into the show.

I was, I was, like, stunned to realize that they waited six episodes to introduce him into the season of the Crown. Amanda Dobbins, tell me about your Josh O'Connor feelings. Charles. He's incredibly powerful. And this is, it's, it's fun to think about this. I mean, it's always fun to think about it in terms of real world implications and, and whether it should have that or not, because it is, despite being based on historical events, a fictional TV show or fictionalized, I guess. I mean, it's a TV show. It's not real life. We can say that. You got to wonder whether this is like the biggest W of Charles's, real Charles's life that he got Josh, Connor cast as young, as young Charles, because like this tips the show's hand a little bit

and how it wants you to feel about Charles. Or at least I think it does because I find Josh O'Connor to be such a, like, charismatic and accomplished, but like endearing, empathetic figure. And certainly this episode and everything in season three is tipped for you to feel for Charles, even if he's kind of being a little rich shit through much of the episodes, which, you know, he is in this episode as well. But what Josh O'Connor brings and turns of vulnerability and just,

and loneliness and wanting to reach out and hug him as every other character in this episode eventually does is very power. It's just, it works. And you got to figure real Charles benefited from that, right? I love that you're, I mean, I think that's true. I think this is the emotional win.

A lot of people were saying this about last season when they cast Dominic West. And everyone's like, what a glow up for Charles to have like the extremely like sexually charismatic, probably actually kind of miscast Dominic West as Charles last season. But I do think that like more important is this baseline that they established with Josh O'Connor in season three. Because in season four, when Diana gets introduced and you are in the deck. Diana, Camilla, you know, Mishigas fully. Like, and you have Josh O'Connor delivering some of these like horrid, awful lines from Charles. Just like, he's vicious.

And also he's screaming. And that is it apparently, I guess the king now, it's really weird. I still am not used to calling him king. You know, I mean, he was like the prince of, he was Prince Charles for like 70 years. He reputedly has a terrible temper and really does, like, scream at the top of his lungs. And it's also, you know, we all know, well, maybe we don't all know, but I know well the fact about, you know, Charles has to bring his own toilet seat and furniture with him wherever he goes, like this is the real one. This is not a person who is like relatable. Tell me, tell me why.

Tell me why I made that because I didn't know that. Oh, you didn't know. Well, he just, it's just so he has the toilet seat that he likes and the paintings that there's one detail where it's like, he brings his own paintings and like takes down the painting. at, you know, the stately homes where he's and has someone put other pain? I mean, I don't know whether these are, these things are totally true. The toilet seat's pretty verified. Yeah. Yeah, you can't.

It's hard to keep that one hidden. I relate. And I don't relate to any of this. But if I'm trying to relate to something, I would relate to the art more than the toilet seat. Do you know what I mean? Like, and I'm just sort of like, sure, you like, the heart wants with the heart wants in terms of what, what you gaze upon.

But like the toilet seat. It just seems like. a lot of work, you know, and a lot of effort. And it's like, and I understand that you want to be somewhere familiar and he's like on the road a lot. But at when you have the resources that he does, you like do the Taylor Swift thing where you just take your private jet home every night to one of your locations, you know? And like for the most part, he's just, he's in the U.S. He's an environmentalist. He's an environmentalist. He is an environmentalist. And we should give him credit for that. But like also he's in the UK. Like you can take a train most places, you know? So funny.

So funny. Anyway. I hope the toilet seat is very, very special, like, one of those, like, Japanese, like, heated, like, the whole mind. No, I'm sure it's not. I'm sure it's just, like, a weird old Scottish toilet seat that they haven't. Hard wood. Yeah. And they haven't replaced it. And, like, because they're also, like, famously very cheap. Yeah. So that's another reason why he wouldn't use the private jet to go home because I don't think he has access to one. I'm so excited to do this season of the Crown interview. Okay. Just already. Already. Already. I'm so excited.

But it's like, I don't think it's a nice toilet seat, you know, because they really, they, they reuse and they keep things for as long as possible, which I respect. Anyway, Charles has had a hard road in the media as, and possibly in life, but certainly in the media. And I wouldn't say that most people enter the crown with a positive view of him. And then Josh O'Connor walks on the screen and you're just like, hey, I would like to spend as much time with you as possible. When he, okay, so the most obvious, like, oh, Charles' moment, there's like a couple, like when he says, it's all right, I'm incredibly used to it when his tutor figures out that he has like no friends just eats alone in his saddle room. Yeah. There's, of course, you know, so much so that another character remarks on it, like how he reacts to seeing his tutor and his wife put their child to bed, knowing that, like, he has never seen anything remotely approaching that kind of warmth in his own life. But the one that got me on rewatch, was when he's excitedly gabbling about his, like, vocal, theatrical vocal warmups

to his tutor. And it's just this, like, extremely relatable. I mean, I hope I've never done this, but maybe I have a thing where he gets just, like, over-eager. He's so self-amused by these, these tongue twisters.

And then when he registers that his tutor isn't, and his eyebrows just go up in this, like, oh, and then, like, he smiles so painfully. And it's just sort of like, Oh, silly old Charles, you know, I go again, you know, and it's just sort of like, yeah, you want to, as all the adults and except his own family do in this episode, just want to wrap your arms around him and protect him. Yeah. For me, it was the scene when he's learning when the tutor's son is teaching him how to count in Welsh. And he says, good night. And then, and then as you noted, the child going up to bed and him just looking completely bereft. The first scene stood out to me. in a way that I hadn't remembered, you know, and again, this is just like very obvious, but still, like, masterful filmmaking where he is sitting on one Ottoman in front of, like,

a giant painting and Buckingham Palace of, you know, some forefathers doing who knows what. And the rest of his family is, like, posed, like, across from him. And it's, you know, they were like, well, you're, like, going off to Wales. And he's like, but, and he and Olivia Coleman, who's playing the queen in seasons three and four, and who is fantastic, have their very tough but unspoken interactions of he doesn't really want to, but she's like, it's not really up to you. And she doesn't know how to be warm. And he is looking for any sort of connection, but also, like, doesn't want to go to Wales. And then she leaves. And he's just like sitting there on the bench with the framing of the giant paying behind him and looking.

being like incredibly lost. And I felt very sad for him. I think the visuals of this episode are really strong. Something that I hadn't noticed, but I was reading someone did like, you know, deep, deep, deep dive on the episode. Who knows way more about the history of this all than I do and pointed out all the instances of people wearing green and like a pale orange or green and a pale pink like to sort of, you know, invoke the Welsh flag. And you see it just throughout like the women sitting on the other side of the prime minister.

in the meeting, like the Tudor's wife, like again and again, again, you've seen this color palette as this sort of like Welsh thread throughout the grays and blues of the palace. And I just think that that is like an interesting little visual. It's interesting when we talk about the crown, as you say, Peter Morgan is such a writer, writing focused person. Like we talk about performance and we talk about the writing. I don't know how often we talk about the visuals necessarily. And I think that this is a great episode for that.

I mean, I think we take a lot of the costuming and the production design for granted because it does have a Netflix budget, even though all the palaces are CGIed. But they spend a lot of time and money on recreating, you know, the handbags and the suits and the hallways and the paintings and everything. So it does look really good, you know, and it needs to because that is an essential part, like the pomp and the pageantry of the crown. is like a, you know, not to sound like a sex in the city blogger, but like is a character in the show. But then also the framing and the angle choices, I was really struck on rewatch by at the actual investiture. They start with Charles like in some old dungeon where he is just like awkwardly waiting. But there is, you know, almost like a medieval quality to it. And then as he walks up the stairs, they film him from below. And it is this.

this off-putting, slightly overwhelming, and from his perspective shot of going into this, you know, complete insanity, I suppose. That really struck me. It didn't, it felt like an unusual use of camera. And they think about these things. Yeah, absolutely. Something that I think is really interesting, this episode is book ended by Charles reciting a speech from Richard the second, the sort of very famous hollow crown.

speech. And, you know, it's an editing decision because I think there's a different version of this episode where that whole thing starts the episode, but they choose to bookend it because he's like practicing it in his dressing room at the beginning of the episode. And then we see the performance itself with his sister watching at the end of the episode. And the resonance of the text of the speech is like very clear where he's talking about like, you know, what makes a king of king and I'm just like any of you and I need things. I need friends. You know, I live with bread like you and can you say to me like I am a king. And there's layers upon layers of meaning here, especially since when this episode premiered to your point, Charles had been

Prince of Wales for so long and not literally the king. But also this sort of like, if you prick me do me. I'm just a person and I have like emotion needs to. But what really hit me on the rewatch of this episode in terms of Charles is like, I love Olivia Coleman's little bit of like he likes ichting. Like his, like, his, you know, fascination with the theatrical, which is a true thing about Charles, like, both in his schooling, but then, like, later in life, he loves, he gets delighted when any time he gets to be involved in some sort of, like, theatrical production.

But what struck me is when you then think about season four, and you think about the resentment that Charles has around how effortless the sort of performance of royalty is for Diana, whereas he has to like sweat and strive for it. And I just think that like underlining his fascination with Shakespearean or otherwise like theatricals in relation to later his inability to perform the role of royalty as well as his beautiful wife is a really interesting stepping stone, you know. And also, you know, the performance of royalty has certainly changed.

changes with Diana in a lot of ways, and that's another tension. And so he can't quite keep up and what she represents to both the royals and to the world at large becomes a real problem for him. I love the Richard the second stuff. And I mean, you know, it just hits, which is a really stupid thing to say about Shakespeare. But there are a couple things that stood out to me, in addition to what you highlighted, which is like it just, the resonance. between what the Charles character is going through and the speech itself. And as you mentioned earlier, also the resonance between

or the resonance that the show draws, and this episode draws anyway, between Charles' personal situation and frustration with his family and his role and, you know, the Welsh national movement. And like all of those things are really obvious, sort of, but also in the wrong hands, in the wrong hands they would feel obvious.

and there is still something like really insightful and revelatory about the way the show presents all of these connections, even though they're like pretty textual. You know, it's like it is like they're on the page, but that's okay that it's on the page. Not everything has to be implied if you do it well. It's so funny that you say that because we picked this episode. I remembered it, I thought pretty clearly. And then I rewatched and I forgot how often they like literally underline. I was like, oh, this is the one where they.

very cleverly draw this parallel, then I'm like, oh, no, people are just constantly saying it. But to your point, it doesn't feel clunky or anything. But like they put the hand on the thing. So I think that's really amazing. And the Shakespeare is another example of that. But again, it's like in the wrong hands, it could go very badly, which is where I want to point out that like Josh O'Connor can perform the hell out of Shakespeare, you know? And he really, the way that he lands that monologue, especially at the end, and that's another place where you look on his face. But he also, he understands. the connection and not everyone can do Shakespeare that way. And then the other thing that I really

like about its inclusion is like obviously this show, this entire show is in conversation with Shakespeare. It is a show about British royals and their history and their attempts to have power and and keep power, which is, you know, Henry V, Henry the Richard the second, Richard the third. Like Shakespeare has a whole history section and Peter Morgan is a playwright as well. But the show doesn't like recreate actual Shakespeare that often. Like I was trying to think of other examples where it's like, you know, they're not like doing a Midsummer Nights dream like in the garden for no reason on episode. Yeah. It's sort of it's just like a, that is an implied tradition.

And so I like, again, I kind of like it when the show just like puts its hand on the thing and it's like, yeah, no, no, no. This actually, this is Shakespearean. Like, and here we are. And when they do it, they do it right and do it to the level. So I think it's like, it's pretty audacious to be like, yeah, no, we'll put our name and league with Shakespeare. But for one episode, it works. I love it. I was rereading this interview that Josh O'Connor did with my former colleague, Julie Miller at Vanity Fair.

Julie, just incredible crown coverage for years and years. And he was like, I was really excited to do Richard the second. I've always wanted you, Richard the second. And he was like, and I decided, I decided Charles is going to be a really good actor, even if Charles himself is a really good actor. He's like, I didn't want to do that model poorly. I wanted to do it well. So, and he did it. He did really well. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound terseptide may be able to help. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity. Or some adults with overweight who also have weight-related medical problems to lose excess body.

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But this is such an interesting transition to go from Claire Foy, the young mother, to Elizabeth having to grapple with her children, like trying to find their own voice, trying to find autonomy and how she reacts to that. And I think it's such a hard thing that Olivia Coleman does successfully do to bridge the gap from the sort of naivete slash slowly getting her feet under her thing that Claire Foy did to what she has to do now in this era of the queen. And I think these interactions, I think what's so fascinating about this episode is we see a few occasions speaking with the prime minister and then speaking with Philip where Elizabeth

is like defensive or protective of Charles. But that is not something she ever offers him, you know, like in, we see her saying, oh, but he likes acting. Oh, but he wants to stay at Cambridge. Oh, but I think he should be able to add something to the speech and all this sort of stuff like that. And that's not something Charles gets to see. So there's this dramatic irony, like, tension of that where we, the audience are privy to many more layers of this woman than she will ever show her own son. What do you think of Elizabeth in this episode? Or maybe even herself, you know? And it's, Everything that you just said is spot on and very perceptive.

And I was wondering, as you were talking, whether all of that's in the text or whether that is something that Olivia Coleman, even like Olivia Coleman and Josh O'Connor bring to each other. And that's like maybe the magic of the chemistry of people acting. I, you know, I wonder whether the Elizabeth character understands that she's doing that or, whether she's not completely in touch with her emotions because that's a recurring theme in the movie. And I think also in life is that, well, you know, I mean, British people in general, and God love them, I get it, feelings hit and miss, you know, maybe they would, maybe, maybe they'd rather, maybe they'd rather not. Yeah.

And certainly within the context of the world of the crown, they don't like talking about their feelings and they don't really like honoring their feelings and they often have to put their feelings aside. But, you know, an interesting thing about the show and its kind of character exercise with Queen Elizabeth, this sort of unknowable woman who was in all of our lives, like for our whole lives, is, does she have feelings and not want to express them?

Does she maybe just not feel, you know, know, have certain feelings. Maybe she just doesn't have time for some stuff. Maybe she actually just is so irritated by her son that she can only access the maternal parts of her herself when he's not around. You know, like, who can, who can really say and, and, and who can know? But it is an amazing performance by Olivia Coleman that she can express all of that and like, and like, raise those questions about a person. I think they've done a remarkable job. Even, even with this most recent iteration of Elizabeth and Philip, with Jonathan Price and the Meldes Staunton,

of showing her romanticism and insecurities around Philip as like the, you know, direct line to her emotional core. Yes. That as like a young woman in love and then a woman who has to balance that relationship with, you know, duty, etc.

That has to navigate, you know, the marital power dynamics in the 1950s and 60s with a, with a man and in a world that does not live up to the enlightened standards of 2023, shall we say. Absolutely. But that that emotional gooey core does not shine through in the realm of parenting. And that's like, that's okay. That's like, that's who this character of Elizabeth is is someone who like,

we can identify real, like, churning turmoil of human emotion in the anguish of her own relationship. But it's, but what happens with Charles, and Anne to a lesser degree, and Anne makes a point in this episode because I'm not important. But, you know, with Charles, then it becomes this sort of like, not only are you my son, but you are my heir. and that's a different, that's a different relationship. I need to instill in you this concept of duty, this concept of being a symbol, you know. And it also literalizes what I imagine to be, I haven't reached this stage of parenting yet. And I don't know whether I've reached this stage of being a child yet. But, you know, at some point the kid is taking over for the parent, you know,

and it's like whether the child is going to be in charge. at some point just, you know, the power dynamic or the, or something flips. I mean, the power dynamic between parents and children are always changing, but it's a little bit about getting older. It's a little bit, I mean, certainly in her position of the one being in charge, and it's like there's this person who is going to, who is literally coming to take my throne at some point. And so necessarily his rise comes at my expense. And that's a like a specific monarchy thing that's like really weird, obviously. But there is probably some Freudian element of that in like every parent-child relationship. And also can you see your child as its own actual person?

Right. Yes, exactly. Versus like an extension of you. Exactly. Yeah. This exchange, we should say, where Charles says I have a voice and she says, let me let me let you into a secret. No one wants to hear it. And he says, are you talking about you or the country? And she says, no one. No one. No one. Is the coldest thing I think Elizabeth ever says, like, in any episode of the show. Maybe I need to rewatch some of the Diana stuff. I'm sure there's

some bad shit there. But like, this is such a tough moment for, for Olivia Coleman to deliver. How did it land with you? It is, it is ice cold, as you said. And like really effective. And I really admire that Olivia Coleman and the show just go for it in terms of viciousness. I was trying to think the other really mean mommy moment that popped into my head comes at the end of season three or four. I guess it must be four. And it's when Charles goes to her to complain about Diana. And she just absolutely loses it on him.

And she yells and she's like, you need to start acting like a king. like what the hell is, like if you want to be king, like what the hell is wrong with you? But even that is more grounded in a reaction to him being like a really annoying person, which just that is definitely how he is portrayed. In that moment, we're so much more on her side than we are in this episode. Yes, exactly. And on this one, even, and it's an amazing performance by Olivia Coleman, because you know, as she's saying, me let you in on a little secret. No one wants to hear it. And before that speech, she is repeating

things that have been said to her in seasons one and two and this thing of like your duty, you don't get to have a preference, these things that she's kind of like internalized and that she had to learn at some cost to herself. And so you know she's sort of talking to herself like a little bit, but it's pure anger and a lot of it is just directed at him, even if it's directed at him because she's projecting on him. It is, she lets it go in a way that she doesn't throughout most of the rest of the show. Well, it reminds me of a lot of the Elizabeth and Margaret conversations and earlier seasons where, you know, it's not just. You know, he's echoing those for sure.

I have a personality. Yeah, yeah. I have charisma. Like, those are almost verbatim things that Vanessa Kirby and Helena Bottom Carter have said is Margaret. And but where Elizabeth has said these things is sort of. of like, well, I've had to do this, as you say, at some significant personal cost. So what do you think makes you exempt from that? Is that sort of like that thing that people, you know, it's like, this is a stupid example, but like the student loan debt forgiveness things where people will be like,

well, I had to pay off my student loans. So why should you have your debt forgiven? You know what I mean? It's like I had to pay off my emotional student loans. Why should you have your emotional But that is like a little, that is a parenting thing. Like, you know, from bit to bit of just saying, like, well, like, I have to do this. So you're going to have to like learn to do it too versus wanting to make things easier for your kid. But like at what cost and they're going to, you know, that. I mean, that's like smaller time stuff. And this is a very vicious and loaded historical version of that. But yeah, it's it's, it's, it's both familiar and also just the meanest. And. and most theatrical thing that you could watch. I want to hit two other performances in this episode, I think are worth remarking on Mark Lewis. Jones, of course, is our tutor at the center of all of this. And this is just like a really incredible.

This is a single episode performance, a really memorable one, one where we were like, yep, this is it. This is the episode. Are there any other, like, sort of, is there anyone who has done more with, like, this little screen time in the Crown? in your memory. Oh, gosh.

I mean, the Crown does do a good job of bringing these people in for a single memorable episode. I'm thinking of the poor lady in the fog. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and now she pops up in other shows and I'm like, oh, it's the fog lady, you know?

It's so funny. I think Stephen Delane, who came in to do the portrait of Churchill that episode, I thought it was really, really good in that. And then the person who writes the rude review of Queen Elizabeth as Queen. Oh, yeah. Yeah, the magazine guy who comes in for one episode, he gets them. He gets one.

I'm sure that there are more, but this is obviously one and done. And it's sort of a bottle episode. I mean, most of it is in Wales, in this place we've never been before and aren't coming back to. And so like a whole world has created, like a whole fan. family is created. This character is also burdened with explaining the entire history of Wales. Yeah. And the nationalist movement. Sure. And it's oppression like, you know, at the hands of the British Empire, which I will be honest, as, you know, an American of my age, didn't know a ton about it. And I think the character explains it quite clearly and movingly, and you know, you can, which, which helps with the show's, like, you know, historical points, but also helping you understand the Charles character.

So it's a pretty fine line to walk and pretty spectacular. And to have to convey this tremendous thaw to go from like resistance and resentment, which is where we're, we start in this episode to this very paternal, proud, like, the scene of him watching Charles in the pub and, like, shushing everyone around him and stuff like that and his, like, extreme pride when Charles nails, like, the hardish-welsh word to ever try to pronounce, and I wouldn't even try it myself in this moment, or when they say goodbye, like, all of that. I mean, again, to believably sell that transformation inside of, you know, some actors are given half a season to do as much and can't do it, you know. And so I just think that that's an incredible

achievement as well. Where are you on Erin Doherty as Princess Anne? Because she's like one of my top favorite performances in all time of the Crown. And she's so good. It's so great. I think of her singing the Bowie song at the top of her lungs while driving. Um, often. Yeah. I also think of, so season four of the Crown came out during the pandemic. And so, you know, season, Season three is when all the new stars were introduced, but it's also when they become famous. And so season four was going to kind of be like the coronation. I walked right into that pun. You know, the opportunity for these people to kind of talk about their work and get some acclaim for their work.

And because of the pandemic, that was scaled back. And I remember Aaron Dirty talking about her disappointment of just not getting to celebrate it. with all of these people that she worked with and enjoyed so much, they film the seasons at the same time and then just dole them out. So I am very, I'm rooting for her, you know? I was like, oh, that's a good point. I wish you'd gotten to Victory Lab to her. And Dirty, she's wonderful.

She's so good. And her characterization of Anne is just like, yeah, a Royal. I like, she's so good at Anne that I then went and watched like a few documentaries about Anne because like, you know. also probably like the secret, like coolest royal. Totally. Because she just like suffers no fools and just does her stuff, which is her work. Yeah, which is just like tireless charity work.

And then on the side, she's like an international class. Horse girl. Equestrian, yeah, horse girl, as they say. And her daughter competed at the Olympics. Her kids don't have titles because she was like, F it, you know, she seems the least bothered by all of it, which I really respect. I want to just like sort of close out by talking a little bit about something that I know that I have obsessively done with every single episode of the Crown is then go and Google.

And again, like, you know, I cannot recommend enough Julie Miller's coverage on Vanity Fair on this front. Like the real, what's the real story behind? How real is this? Right. And in the case of this nationally, if not globally televised event of the investiture of Charles and Wales. There's like literal video of this speech that you can go watch. There's newsreels done of him like in the language lab that you can go watch,

like all the sort of stuff like that. They had a lot of source material to work from the outfits that Anne and Margaret and Elizabeth and the Queen Mother are wearing are the outfits that they wore, etc. Yes, including that hat. The incredible hat.

And so I'm curious, I don't know. your stance on this, like, how much does it matter to you? Obviously, this is a fictionalized, especially like the behind closed doors conversations. This is a fictionalized version of roble events. How much does it matter to you, how closely they cleave to like what actually happened? Do you feel like a thrill of like, oh, that is literally what Prince Charles looks like when you tried to break dance when you later Google that? Or like, does it not matter to you at all? Like, where are you on that scale? I'm doing both, I think, at the same.

time. Is that a cop-out? You know, I have a deranged and unhealthy accumulation of tabloid details that I do pick out, you know, like an example in season four, Diana surprises Charles with a ballet performance to Billy Joel's Uptown girl, which is a true thing that happened. Sure is. You know, and the outfits, I would say I have more than a passing familiarity with. So I'm just kind of like check, check, check here and there. So I guess I get a thrill out of that, but I think I am really amazed by what they can find in terms of, and maybe not even like, I mean, it is fiction, but, you know, the imagined ideas and themes and feelings and kind of like the historical

import, but also personal and emotional import that they can infuse into things that really happen. and the way that they pick specific events to piece it together to make something like extremely meaningful and bigger than what it was, which was like people cutting ribbons at a ceremony, you know? Totally, totally. It's really amazing to me and invigorating. And it makes me think a lot about how other stories like this are told, whether it's biopics or, you know, whether it's like Shakespeare, you know, was also just taking people and making up feeling. to like go with events. I think it's like an incredible, it's incredibly creative, honestly.

Or at least for me, I just think, like I'm really amazed at people who can do this and put these things together and come up with something larger than that makes me feel something about people rather than a history book, you know? Yeah. And I think this is such a brilliant example of that this episode,

as we already said a little bit, like I was just, as I was rewatching And I was just imagining them trying to, you know, Peter Morgan chiefly, because I don't think he has like a traditional writer's room on this. But like, trying to break the season and think about like, okay, what is going to be Charles's introduction? Okay, let's do this big of this big speech that was televised. That was sort of like his introduction on the global media stage to a certain degree, right? And so that will be his direction. Okay.

Then what is the metaphor? What are we trying to say about Charles as a person? in this moment and then they like, you know, come up with this brilliant parallelism between him as a person and what he's undergoing this moment and the speech that he gives about whales. You know, they pick through the language of the speech to infuse it with this meaning that may or may not have been there at all. And as you say, as we said, like, yes, it's underlined in the script, but it's still like someone, a brilliant writer in a room had to like sit there and think about, like, you know, how can we, how can we personalize, like, essentially.

a giant ridiculous ribbon-cutting ceremony. It's also, like, when it's done well, that's great. The problem is that we see a lot of things that are underlined in the script and then bolded and then highlighted and then rewritten by a third grader, you know? And it's just this is... Once again, the morning show. Once again, hello to the morning show and to the good people at Lascaultarie says, yeah, it's just, it's really good, you know? They hire great actors.

Peter Morgan's an incredible screenwriter. They spend money on the costumes. I wish they spent more money on the CGI palaces, but that's just me. I guess you can't actually film a Buckingham Palace. So it's good. It's good. Yeah. Just make your show is good.

That's all we ask. Yeah. The last little like real world detail that I want to point out is that, of course, you know, Charles is now King Charles, which means William is now Prince of Wales. Yes. And he was designated so on September 2020, formal letters issued on February 2020. But no big dramatic ceremony or speech or anything like that.

Because as unpopular as this idea was in 69, it has only become less popular as the decades have gone by. So William is quietly Prince of Wales in a way that Charles wasn't. I was actually slightly surprised that they rolled out the title. so quickly and even and did it. And that's me applying a level of, you know, progressivism to the royal family that it just, there is no evidence for. Just like absolutely none at all. But I was like, you know, I think like awareness of the Welsh people and culture and the pain and resentment that this title has, has created is like certainly reflected in

the episode and is kind of more, you know, available generally. And, um, and, you're right to point out they did very little. It's also, the other thing about it is that Diana was so associated with the title Princess of Wales. It's like never a title that Camilla took on. And that was pure like I know that people will not. I know that the larger world will not accept that. So they're willing to follow the expectations of the larger media ecosystem, just not apparently of the people of Wales. Well, I mean, I love, something I loved about last season, season five is the sort of like a media education of Camilla. Oh, yeah, Mark Balland. Yeah. He's, I mean, he's very famous. So, yeah, this idea that she's like, I'll be Duchess of Cornwell. Thank you very much. Right. No need, you know, for me to step in that. Right. Let's look forward briefly just to, so as we said, season, the final season is split into four and six episodes. And I think what we can anticipate are sort of many arcs in the shape of we have the first four episodes are. Diana's death in the immediate aftermath, I believe, is the plan. And then the sixth that we get, I believe we're going to, I mean, I know we're going to get

a bit of a time jump because we've seen like the actus and cast Kate and Wales. So we're doing Kate and Wales and, you know, and their love stories. I think that that's happening among one presumes other things. So what are you most looking forward to? Do you have any apprehensions? How do you feel about we're getting to the stories of the royal family that existed while we were alive. Right.

And I even, I'm excited to, we're going to do a where we left off episode, I believe. And so. Okay, great. Well, I don't know. That's what Bill said. Hi, Bill. If you're listening, you said to do it. So we're going to do it.

And so we'll get to talk more about season five, which I rewatched recently. And I think I was a little hard on the first time around. And I think part of my itchiness with season five probably was because it was recreating events that exist in some form in my memory. You know, I was around for it. And also it was a lot more covered. And we had a lot more media, literal, like, you know, of Princess Diana. And, like, trust me that I've read the Andrew Morton book, like, eight times, you know. And I had the addition with, like, the transcript of her tapes that were smuggled out in the center, you know. So I've read that. So when, that's all to say that, like, when things get, like, the closer and closer it gets to your memory or what you know, the more likely you're supposed to do. like, well, it's not like this, and I always interpreted it this way, and I'm not sure about that, and you're henpecking the choices more than consuming it as a television show. So I guess I have a little apprehension about that.

I also have a little apprehension about Diana's death and how they're going to handle that. And I think they have apprehension about that. Like the producers have already given interviews where they're like, we are going to do this as carefully and respectfully as we can. They already did it. Peter Morgan already did it. I think the Queen is a great movie. I love the Queen.

The Queen is so good. And the Queen is really, if you haven't seen it, is like the Queen and then the play that Peter Morgan wrote called The Audience, which I saw on Broadway, don't worry, are the kind of lab for the Crown. And the Queen is literally, it's about the week after Diana's death, but told through the lens of Queen Elizabeth and how she's dealing with it and how she navigates the media stuff versus the emotional stuff versus how she deals with her son. I mean, like it is. And Tony Blair, like sort of. Yes. And the prime minister, right. And the audience, the play is Queen Elizabeth

meeting with all of her prime ministers in succession, which, you know, the show chronologically, but also structurally, has worked that in throughout. So it's like that. That's, like, could be, I guess, a long episode of the Crown on its own. And that would be a great way to handle it because, you know, I hope they don't show it. I thought they made a very smart, if slightly disappointing decision to not show Charles and Diana's wedding. But that made sense, I think, both from a we've we've all seen the foot. I love how I keep saying like, we've all seen it. You know, not everyone else has watched all the royal wedding specials as I amended happens have. But it's available. And, And so to compare it to recreate it seems like a little bit getting into SNL territory. So were you surprised at all? Again, I guess we'll talk about this a little bit more when we do this sort of like where we left off episode. But were you surprised at all when they brought in Tony Blair at the end of last season, played by Bertie Carvel? I was surprised that they did not cast someone.

I would be a little bit more. Like Michael Sheena's Tony Blair is like so important to the queen. Right. That film. And so I was just like a little surprised, you know, given the way that they've cast certain prime ministers. I expected something like a little flashier in the casting of Tony Blair. On the flip side, it might be more interesting to see an actor that I'm less familiar with so I can just sort of like immerse myself in like the character rather than the perform. You know, because I did think that like I'm, it may be in a popular.

unpopular opinion. I thought Gillian Anderson as Margaret Thatcher was a bit distracting. And so, you know, like not every one of these casting choices is exactly right. But that was just like one that I was a little surprised by it. Also maybe signaled to me that they want to do less Tony Blair as Tony Blair. And maybe like I don't know how much appetite they have for doing like new labor. And also whether it's because the, you know, the, you know, the. The closer we get to the present day, the less power the monarchy has. And also the queen just kind of gets more and more separated from what's going, you know.

She's, it's not like sitting there with Churchill being like, how are we going to fix the fog? Right. You know, she's so if you cast someone big in a role, then you kind of have to use them, which is certainly the like Gillian Anderson, Margaret Thatcher thing, but was even a little bit. and I love her and she's great. The Helena Bottom Carter, Margaret thing, which, like, respectfully, Margaret doesn't have a lot to do in seasons three or four, you know? Once she marries Tony, it's just kind of ugliness. And I guess that's not true.

She has the nice. To the American tour. Yeah, but that one, I'm like, that one, that one to me honestly feels a little bit like we got Helen and Bottom Carter. And so we got to do this. Give her an episode. We got to give her an episode and we got to do it soon because she's so famous. When she goes to the Caribbean and has the love affair with Roddy Llewin, is, I believe, his name, the gardener. Yeah.

That, to me, you know, that makes sense. But I wonder whether the Tony Blair thing is just kind of like we don't want to use Tony Blair that much. I mean, exactly. Like, I'm like, okay, it just, it set my expectations in a certain direction. Anyway, this is all stuff. This is all fodder. for an episode I didn't realize we're doing, but I'm excited that we're doing, which is where we left off episode.

Yeah. Yeah. Like where we're, I guess there is some forecasting in that. We're forecasting for the next episode. Let's, we'll talk about all of that in the next episode we do. We might do some like series superlatives while we're at it in that episode. Anything else do you want to cover in terms of this Hall of Fame induction? I think we picked perfectly.

I think no one can have a single objection. Um, and this will be just an easy induction into the Prestige TV Hall of Fame. Yeah, who else gets a vote? It's just us. So we're, yeah, it's unanimous. It's not a democracy. This is a cheerocracy. I enjoy all the seasons of the crown.

And this is, but I think this is the best episode. Pretty one and done. Excellent. We did it. We'll be back for several more episodes covering the crown. Keep your eyes peeled and the prestige feed in general as Prestige TV ramps back up again. We had a pretty quiet summer, but we are back at his fall baby. at its prestige time.

The Emmys are coming. Amanda, thank you so much for doing this with me. Thank you so much for... Thank you for... Thank you for the Charles Toilet Seat Information. I can't wait to hear more. There is so much more where that came from.

I was holding back. I was trying to be normal. Please don't. Please don't. Get ready. Okay, great. All Amanda's unhinged royal tidbits are coming for you

in upcoming coverage of the crown. This episode was produced by the great Sasha Jezell, and we will see you soon. Bye.