The Prestige TV Podcast - 'The Crown' Season 5 Episodes 1-3 Recap

Episode Date: November 9, 2022

A new season of 'The Crown' is upon us, and Jo and Mal are here to break down the first three episodes of the full season drop now on Netflix. Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Summer serve up the cookout classics, Heinz ketchup, and Kraft singles. Every good burger needs a layer of perfectly milty cheese and thick, rich ketchup. We all know it's not a cookout without Heinz and Kraft. Back into the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson, join me, front row at a horse show of some kinds, a polo match. I don't know what we're watching, but we're front row. We've got our Harrod's gift bag. It's Mallory Rubin and yours truly, hello.

Mallory Rubin, how are you? I just can't believe I have functioning Wi-Fi out here on Britannia, the Royal Yacht. We're here to talk about the Crown episodes one through three. So, you know, if you're looking for a preview pod of the Crown, that already happened. That's earlier in the feed, earlier in the week. You can go listen to that. If you're looking for an episode that covers all of the Crown, that's coming later in the week. What you're here right now for is,

coverage of episode one, Queen Victoria's Syndrome, episode two, the system, and episode three, Mo-moo, if you have not watched those three episodes, this is not the podcast for you. Press pause, go watch them, come back, listen to us talk about them, all right? We're breaking down the crown, sort of in these little chunks.

We'll be back with episodes four through six, and then also seven through ten. That's the plan for covering the season of television. Elsewhere in the feet, of course, So you can find, I was talking about interview with the vampire. I did an episode with Charles about that. Bill and I will be covering the White Lotus every week on Sundays. There's a couple episodes of those up so that you can listen to.

And then, of course, I always recommend you go back and listen to Van and Charles talk about Atlanta, the season of Atlanta. It's just really incredible stuff. All kinds of goodies on the Prestige TV podcast feed. But this is a Netflix binge week, which means Mallory and I are here for you, beat after beat to cover the Crown season five. Mallory Rubin, overall, how are you feeling about the Crown? season five before we get into these episodes. Overall, I'd say it's a delight to be back in the crown verse because I love the crown, and I'm very excited to cover season five of the crown with you and talk about the crown with

you. Season five is definitely a little bit more uneven than the prior seasons. No question about it. Some high highs, some stretches that don't land quite as well. but we're in a time period that we are all a little bit more familiar with than some of the more distant history of the prior seasons. So it's a new experience, Joe. How about you? How have you felt about season five so far? I feel very similarly, like a very mixed bag for me, some of my favorite stuff. And I've said, you know, in our preview episode and on Twitter, like the thread through

the season of the media and like, you know, the 90 is so famous for its tabloid journalism. And we are having such a moment now going back and looking at tabloid journalism of the 90s and early odds and how it impacted people like Monica Lewinsky or, you know, people associated with the OJ Simpson trial or Britney Spears. And so like Diana and Charles and all the rest are a perfect subject for us to think about have a reckoning with how we consume news at that time and how we. feel about it now. So I think the media stuff is of particular interest to me. We get biographers and, you know, TV interviews and discussion of the state of BBC at the time

and all that sort of stuff is sort of peppered throughout. So I find that consistent theme to be really interesting. It's just like sometimes, sometimes an episode hits and sometimes it doesn't, and that's just sort of where I am with this season. In this pack of episodes, I would say, there's like an episode that really doesn't work for me. And then also, I think my favorite episode of the season. So it's just like, you know, a real grab bag in one through three here. We're going to go if you have no objections, episode by episode, and just give, you know, this is a sprightly little hour we're going to spend on three episodes of television.

So we're going to do our best. We usually spend three hours in one episode of television. I don't want a quest. And at the end, we're going to do is we're going to give out some awards like we did in our review episode. Okay, so let's start with Queen Victoria Syndrome episode one. We begin it all with a Claire Foy flashback. Mallory. I was delighted. Joe, what a thrill. I was like, oh my God, it's Claire Foy. Yeah. A lot of flashbacks in general in season five, and including a lot in this opening three episode stretch, we move through time quite a bit. But what a treat to be back

with Claire Foy to usher in a new season of the Crown and to watch Claire Foy. usher the Royal Yacht Britannia into the sea. The Britannia becomes sort of the metaphor of a very metaphor-heavy season. And I would say maybe like one of the more labored metaphors that the crown puts forward. And it's not trying to hide that it's a labor metaphor, right? She says at one point in this episode, you know, the Britannia is me, you know? It's just sort of like, okay, we get it. Yeah, so seafaring embodiment.

of her essence. I mean, who amongst among us does not have a seafaring embodiment of our essence? And I think as a larger commentary on the royal, I mean, like, as a metaphor for Elizabeth, it's a little thin to me. But as a larger commentary on, like, what the crown is, is kind of interesting to me in terms of, as we discussed in our preview episode, neither you nor I are certain, like, fascinated with the royals or royals fans or anything like that. So that question constantly of, like, what purpose does a show like the crown serve? How interested are you in a pleasure yacht? Where are the stakes around a pleasure yacht?

Is the crown, is the monarchy something worth examining? And if so, why? If the best metaphor for it is a pleasure, I mean, you know I love a pleasure yacht. You know that from our time together. Now Samar in the ring of verse, but like as a larger metaphor for the thing that we're supposed to be very interested in and concerned about, how does that work for you?

So as you noted, the Britannia is one of what will become many different homes, institutions, various things, castles, carriages, is a number of things, even just in these opening episodes, villas over in France that stand in as a representation of some aspect of the royal family, some aspect of the crown, and some sort of decay, some sort of change in the public perception.

To your point about maybe the distinction between how well the metaphor works as a stand-in for a representation of Elizabeth. herself versus the crown at large. The one part that I thought was compelling for like a closer comp to Elizabeth directly, like first of all, just the timeline, right? The, the yacht heading out into the waters in conjunction with the dawning of Elizabeth's rain, you know, separated by a little bit of time, but not much. And the moment that we hear Elizabeth talking of the doctor really pushing the boundaries

of propriety by asking if she has a favorite home. We're all expecting her to say it's about moral, but that's the second. It's Britannia, we learn. And that idea that it was the only thing she got to, like, shape herself because everything else was inherited and passed down and something that she had to, something that she had to, like, adjust herself to fit inside of

as opposed to something that she got to fit to her. That was interesting to me. the broader role of the Royal Yacht, you know, we get to hear Philip, who's been just tracking that mechanical noise. One of the first times ever, let me say, very few moments in the history of the crowd where I'm like, yeah, I can relate.

But Philip just trying to enjoy a meal and being like, what is that sound and not being able to stop perseverating over it? It's like, that I have done a thousand times. What is that mechanical sound? I must identify the source of that clip. looking. And when he says, you know, true comes a surprise, she's falling apart. She's a creature of another age. And then we

have to be realistic about the cost of repairs when she's so obviously passed her best. The way that that becomes a stand in for our aging queen, our figurehead inside of this increasingly antiquated system, you know, it's a mission statement for the season, certainly. We know what the season is going to be interested in examining. Queen Victoria Syndrome, the title of the episode is connected to this, you know, newspaper article and this poll about whether or not the queen who is in her 60s should, you know, abdicate, leave the throne and put Charles the more progressive, the young heir, youngish air, in her place.

I want to talk about Charles. I have a bit of a bone to pick. I feel like Melda Staunton is a clear as crystal continuation of what Claire Foy and Olivia Coleman are doing. You and I talked to the preview episode about Philip and his changeable arc so that it sort of makes, even though Jonathan Price is doing something very different from what Tobias Menzies did, which was different from what Matt Smith does, it sort of makes sense for us a bit as like the progression of Philip. With Charles, we only have two performances here. We don't have three. It's not like a clean, you know. We have some child, yes, child actors in the early.

in the Scotland bully school and etc. But in terms of central figures, yes. Right. And Josh O'Connor, as we mentioned, our preview episode was so astonishing as Charles. Unbelievable. And we love Dominic West, whether it's Mallory's horny's fascination

with the affair or with crime in Baltimore. That is the Wire. I have questions about this casting, which I've already expressed to you, but I'm going to put it on record on the pod here, because the thing about Charles, and I think the thing that Josh O'Connor captured so well, is this sort of this inherent petulance,

this like, I don't really hold to these standards, but let's just say for, you know, brevity, beta male energy coming off of Charles, so that especially, like, his petulence, you mentioned in our previous episode, that Australia tour episode, his petulance at being overshadowed by Diana, her celebrity, her magnetic energy, all of that sort of stuff, it is hard for me to buy in on

someone like Dominic West who is so, like, Joshua Connor is attractive, but like Dominic West is like so virile and like a potent, like no matter what he's ever done, he's never, he's constantly alpha male energy. That is who Dominic West is. And so a glow up for a royal, that is the crown is always done. Like, I'm not, I'm not worried that he's, like, hotter than Charles is. Josh O'Connor is hotter than Charles is. That's fine. It's the energy.

It's the vibe that I really object to so that when he, when they go off on this second honeymoon tour, when his secretary, you know, is like, hey, for the sake of PR, you know, if you're going to make this bid to be king, like, utilize your wife. You need her, right? But like a Dominic West King Charles, Prince Charles, doesn't need Diana. Josh O'Connor Charles does. And so there's just like for me a fundamental disconnect between performer and character and premise. And something that you pointed out to me when I was talking to you off pod about this a little bit is like, okay, well, does that match the moves that Charles is making here in this sort of abdication plot when he's meeting with John Major and sort of whispered campaigning about his own mother?

Wild stuff. You know, and we talked in the preview pod about like how we don't really object to the crown dramatically reinventing plenty of things. John Major has said like this is definitely not something that happened. Judy Dench is like this is definitely not something that happened. And so it just feels like character wise, again, character wise, a fundamental mismatch for Charles who I believe when Josh O'Connor says, mummy, I believe it. When Dominic West, as Charles says, mummy to Mel de Staunz, Elizabeth, I have a harder time believing it. So I love a lot about this season. I think Dominic West is incredibly good.

It just feels like I need to accept a completely different. Like, this is Charles, in quotation marks, versus Charles. How do you feel about that? I guess less strongly than you, but I also don't disagree, really, with anything you're saying. and I think it's like, for me, a little bit of a classic, two things could be true at once, where I thought his performance was really good, but also acknowledged within that that he is performing a drastically different character,

not only than the evolution inside of the show, but maybe what history would lead us to ready for. I think that the, again, I have no idea what goes into casting the crown other than you need all stars, you know, bangers only, right? Like, it's got to be a cast of superstars who can not only excel within the season, but carry on this legacy now. That is four seasons deep. And I wonder if given those historical alterations to the Charles political plot in particular, that was actually something that maybe not only didn't feel like a contradiction, but felt like it's something to actively pursue like that a performer who could abuse that. pursuit of something.

And I think about a scene where we actually get that conversation between Charles and the prime minister about contradictions. And I wonder if that's a little bit of like a message to the audience, too, about the versions of Charles that that we're getting. I think that's fair. And you and I agree. I mean, like, Dominic West is great. He's great.

I just need to like really push him at it differently. The thing, I mean, we're going to get to like a leader in the season. we're going to get to some of the more, like, really embarrassing, really public stuff about Camilla and Charles. And it just sort of like really reads differently when it's Dominic West versus like imagine Josh O'Connor saying any of that stuff. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's just different. Meanwhile, I think, you know, all the things that I said in the preview episode about Emma Corrin, I would, I would yes and plus for Elizabeth Debicki as Diana.

Again, this could so easily be an impersonation performance. And again, she nails the crooked neck. up through the eyelashes look and the very specific way of talking. And gosh. And, I mean, is preposterously too tall for the role, but that's fine. As a tall person myself, I support it. Tall women deserve roles to towering over trials on the another yacht. I loved it.

Yeah, in that way maybe like, you know, that that sort of communicates a little bit of that emasculation, I suppose. but like, the, I just, so, Dibicki and West and the whole, like, let's give them some of that old magic yacht disembarkment, which is recreation as the crown is fictionalized, then also sometimes as these moments of recreation, recreation of a 1991 Italy trip that Charles and Diana took down to the costumes, all that sort of stuff. How did you feel about this particular pleasure yacht and their experience on it? I mean, this yacht looked lovely. Which, which yacht would you choose for a little seafaring adventure? This yacht, Britannia, or the Roy family yacht from succession. I was going to say the Roy family yacht.

Yeah, that would probably be my pick as well. I was just thinking about toenails and... Me too. I was just going to mention toenail fungus. Yeah. Scott, you've got to mind the teak. I liked this... Italy stretch and the yacht stretch as an establishing.

I thought this stuff worked a lot better than he quite heightened and, you know, really actively strange Charles' plot to overthrow his mother where, like, even as a viewer, I said this in the previous fight, even as a viewer who's like, I don't expect the crown to be like note for note historical. That was like, I paused and I was like, this did that? This didn't happen like this, right? This is like, what? The yacht stretch, the second honeymoon,

first of all, bringing in William and Harry. And it's like heart-wrenching to see this dynamic, the moment around this large dinner table where Charles has surrounded himself with his friends on what is supposed to be this family vacation. Yes, for the press and public image maintenance, but also this time together. And the tension over like, what is fun?

is a what is interesting? What is a genuine pursuit of like curiosity and pleasure for the people in question? And you know, the shopping moment and like the boys being the ones who raised their hands to support their mom and then their little like Super Mario Game Boy love fest down below deck after was just like really set the tone, I think pretty effectively for everything that's to come. And when you have like Charles debriefing with Norton later, you know, he says, like, isn't it extraordinary how two people's understanding of fun could be so wholly different? And I think that that's always an area of interest for the crown is, like, when do people's differences unlock something that's actually essential for each other?

Like, and how can that be a helpful way to support and forge an alliance with each other? Elizabeth and Philip have given us plenty of moments to interrogate and think about that very question. And when is it something that makes it among other variables, certainly, like impossible for people to find a way to coexist? Was your experience watching the season of the Crown and thinking about the Crown in general and Elizabeth throughout Elizabeth versus Margaret and Elizabeth versus Diana, et cetera? Do you ever think about Allison Hightower saying, where's duty, where's sacrifice? Like a hundred times. Constantly, right? Legitimately.

And this is like, Elizabeth is like, hey man, if I were to pursue the person who's interested in line with mine, I'd be married to Porchi. Not fucking Philip, that's for sure. So anyway, yeah. Like, I just want to say, real tough look for Charles as far as I'm concerned. And I'm pretty down on Charles in general. And this season actually is kind of pro-Charles in a way. But like I, who looks down there and knows at someone who just wants to shop?

Like, it's okay to want to shop if you're taking a trip to Italy. Like, I love museums and ruins, too. I don't particularly love shopping, but it is not an insane request to want to go shopping when you're yachting around Italy as far as like I'm concerned. I love this depiction of Diana's fun mom. This is like one of my favorite aspects of Diana. Actually, I almost wish this season had more of this. But the film Spencer that came out last year, which I absolutely loved. a lot of people didn't, but I love, but the relationship between Diana and her boys,

which is complicated because it is both, like, she's just fun mom. They love her. She loves them. She's, because it's such an ease with them. She, they're her world is all true. And she leans on them, like, in this moment of, like, these poor children should not have to, like, be in a position where they have to support their mom at a table of adults. And again, as I said in the preview pot, I judge everyone. who doesn't stick up for Diana.

So Penelope, we're going to come back to you in episode two, but just sitting there silently and not saying like, hey, it's fine if Diana wants to shop. Like, I was judging her at that moment. So we'll get back to more Penelope judgment. We briefly see Andrew Morton here as they take, like, you know, one last little photo op where Diana's like basically crying, you know, with the boys. And we'll come back to Andrew Morton later. Let's talk about the queen.

you already mentioned in the preview pod, this idea of hiding the newspaper from the queen is not necessarily like a new idea. This is something that we've seen before on the crown. What did you make of all of this of like, let's hide this story that Philip is in cahoots with? Let's hide the story from the queen and from Anne. Okay, so a couple things. One really captures the absurdity of the entire enterprise. Like the idea that you could shield information that is this public and this widely disseminated and this much of a guarantee, an absolute certainty to spark conversation and debate that would not cease quickly, right? Like, there's no way to contain it, but they really try and think they can, which just don't. tells you so much about like the willfully isolated nature of royal life. And there's a part of you that's like, of course Elizabeth susses this out right away. And it's like, why are people being odd? Like everybody's being weird. Why is everybody being weird? And it's like an intuitive,

alert aware person. And then there are plenty of other times over the course of the crown where Elizabeth is the one who's like, uh, I'm actually just like not going to watch that. Like, can we turn back to the channel? I want to have on instead. So there's that interesting. tension. I think with Philip, I was really, really, really struck by his immediate initial response to seeing the article, seeing the poll, which was, it's outrageous. She never stopped. She never complains. She never puts a foot wrong. She's utterly magnificent and they print rubbish like this. That is such an insight into the way that he has evolved as somebody who is more comfortable. not always comfortable, as we'll chat about, but increasingly has come to understand his role.

Like one of the earliest moments that we get with Philip and his father-in-law out on the boats, do you understand what the job is? She's the job. And that's like this defining thing across Phillips' arc. And he often actively resists it. Doesn't want, like, thinks, what do you mean I would bend down to you at your own coronation? Absolutely not, right? These moments where Philip is not only seeking his own sense of purpose and achievement in life,

but rebelling against what the role is. And so a moment like that where he's like, I understand it and actually like think that she's incredible just like summed up decades and decades of evolution for him. We're going to come back to that in later episodes. But like that feels like a clear arc to me. and then the art gets a little, like, I think, muddier as the season progresses. But then we got, like, a lot of stuff with John Major in this episode, as we mentioned in the preview pod, like this prime minister's relationship or the monarchy through the lens of the given prime minister is always sort of an interesting way to think about the Crown.

And so we get these meetings between Charles and John Major, and we get these meetings between Elizabeth's John Major, and then he attends the Gillies Ball, this, you know, real event that takes place at Balmoral and observes it along with this. wife. Johnny Lee Miller, like Dominic West, way too hot for this role, but, you know, with the wig and the glasses and, like, the temperament seems fine, you know? Frankly, astonishing casting. All-time heat check here from the crown. It's like, wow. Preposterous, honestly, but that's fine. Here we are. I want to go back in time until, like, 90s to write-spotting is going to be Sean Major in the crowd. I love this. Charles is the first one to bring it up in a really clumsy.

Like, Charles' whole interaction with John Major is so obvious and sweaty and terrible. And when he essentially, like, insults him while trying to inform the audience who John Major is, but just basically says, it's odd that you come from a middle class background, but you're not of the labor party, right? Like, that's weird, right? It seems like you've kind of shut the door on where you came from, and you're not really doing that anymore. That's interesting, but you're progressive like me, so let's talk about the future. But this constant, you know, we saw it with Thatcher, you know, Fascher's excruciating experience coming to Balmoral. John Major seems a little bit more at home at the Gillies ball.

But this idea when Margaret comes up to John at the Gillies ball and says, like, this is a satchenalia. If you know what that is, then he, like, recites the, like, he, Hermione Granger's her and, like, recites the perfect definition of what a Saturn alien is. And he's basically like, I'm educated, actually. I'm not just, you know, the butler that you've led into the party for the evening. What do you think about this depiction of the prime minister in this era of the crown? So, again, I always love what the conversations between the prime minister and the monarch unlock for us about the state of the nation at that moment in time. what public opinion is, what the challenges are. And this was a kind of like unique experience where it's not new for us to see a look of like frank alarm or befuddlement on the prime minister's face hearing something in a royal sitting room.

But to get to see multiple conversations with multiple different members of the family in such quick success. session. You see the way that he is responding to this very, again, like you said, clumsy appeal from Charles. And you just are like, this isn't going the way that Charles thinks it's going to go. He's not going to get this support for basically his in-family coup. And so you enter the scene with Elizabeth and right at the beginning with like the handing over of the tea and she's reciting her, her quotes. And he has this like sweet little smile on his face. And you're like, yeah, there's a warm here and you're ready for him to say this is the person I support, even if he's saying it with a facial expression or an action. But then immediately he's again like, okay, you are also out

of touch, just in a different way from the next generation. And actually, I'm now more alarmed because I've realized that every generation of this family is completely unprepared for the reality of the moment, all of which, of course, then culminates in this window-gazing speech that he makes to his wife about how the entire country's going to fall apart on his watch because this family is such a fucking mess. Let's go ahead and hear Johnny Lee Miller, like, give this little, like, thesis for this season of the crown here at the end of the episode. When you imagine the problems you might be confronted with this prime minister, you imagine tricky sessions at PMQs, the economy and free fall, going to war. You never imagine this. The House of Windsor should be.

binding the nation together, setting an example of idealized family life. Instead, the senior royals seem dangerously deluded and out of touch. The junior royals, feckless, entitled, and lost. And the Prince of Wales, impatient for a bigger role in public life, life fails to appreciate that his one great asset is his wife. It's a situation that cannot help but affect the stability of the country. And what makes it worse is it feels it's all about to erupt on my watch. There's a lot we can say about the crown being a little on the nose.

And this speech here from John Major is definitely on the nose. But there's artistry to the way that it's shot in terms of what we're seeing play out as he's talking about it. And I think his performance is really good. This episode and the next one are both directed by Jessica Hobbs, who is a New Zealand director, who has done several episodes of the Crown. She also worked on Broadchurch, so I wonder if Olivia Coleman brought her in or something like that. But, you know, visually, I think a lot is done with contrasting images with speeches and just letting us sort of forge those connections ourselves. So even though this speech is a little heavy-handed, it worked for me. especially the image of like Diana and Fergie and Charles and all of that going on out in the courtyard.

Anything else you want to say about this Saturnalia about this episode about John Major himself? You know, we, I'll just mention with this Queen Victoria Syndrome idea, we talked a lot in our preview pod about how Elizabeth herself often embraces something that the characters around her are her, her, as a critique, which is the constancy, right? And so this is something that the queen voices to the prime minister in this conversation, Constancy, stability, calm duty. I would be proud to have described me. And I find that to be a compelling text inside of this episode and this season, like how sometimes the thing that somebody levies and hurls at you, maybe it's a newspaper, or maybe it's a stranger who's voting in a poll, maybe it's your own son, is something that, like, you think is a source of pride for you? And is that something that earns our sympathy and love?

Or is that something that reveals maybe how wide the gap actually is between a person in the country that they inhabit or the role that they inhabit? So I thought that that was really interesting. And like, as is so often the case within Elizabeth scene, we're like feeling very warmly toward her and actually quite sorry for her. And then the rational part of your brain kicks in. And you're like, no, shouldn't we be? asking to spend millions of pounds refurbishing the royal yacht at this moment? Like, is this what we should be thinking about? Why can't they pay for it for themselves? But it was like heart wrenching to see the moment where she was reading the paper and then we're cutting to the scene of her walking the dogs,

like out in the Scottish country life walking, like in the place where she actually does feel like happy and at peace. And it's that sense of duty again, a duty that she embraces and truly believes defines her life, but like, would she just have been happier with the dogs and the horses and poor chief? Without question. Yeah. Sad. That's, I mean, in this episode, you know, Anne pays a little visit and we will come back to Anne in this season. But again, I love those moments because, like, Anne and Elizabeth obviously just, like, have such an easy understanding and relationship and they just like the same thing. Similar to, like, you know, the Queen Mother and Elizabeth and, like, occasionally Elizabeth Margaret. There's this just sort of like ease of family.

that is not present in her relationship with Charles and, like, basically any of her sons. The Anne Elizabeth stuff actually felt like new to me because, yes, they have, like, the horse love in common, et cetera. But Anna has always been, you know, Philip Girl Dad. Like, if Anna's always been Phillips' favorite and the way that they just laughed together, like, the stinky minky joke had seemed to have found maybe like a new shorthand and comfort with each other as they've both aged and matured, I thought was really nice. To return to your Elizabeth sort of embracing the Victoria

syndrome as not an insult but a compliment. Yeah. We wouldn't be us, I think, if we didn't drop a Game with Thrones quote here, right?

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You love a Philip episode. I historically do not love these episodes where Phillips's like, I've gone, I've got to hobby. Oh, man. And I'm particularly baffled by the carriage racing plotline, though I did love the opening. Because Philip in this era started traveling the world and saying like baffling, increasingly out of touch, downright racist things. Like, Philip, the malaproximisms of Philip in an interview. was like one of the first things I ever learned about him as a person again. So this opening interview where he's like constantly distracted by a bird.

Honestly, top tier stuff from Jonathan Price. But then there's just like a lot of carriage racing stuff. So Mallory sell me on the carriage racing. I won't. I won't tell you. I did not. This was not my favorite episode of this opening trio and not my favorite episode of the season. And, you know, I do love the Philip-centric episodes.

I love Philip searching for meaning and sitting around a circle talking about spirituality and how you'll never think about life the same way when you've been above the clouds. I'm a real sucker for that. I will note once again that I am praising Philip the character on the crown as a compelling watch and a very entertaining television figure, not the actual human. This was very strange, the carriage driving stuff. And again, like another metaphor, we both jotted down ship of Theseus in our notes watching the refurbishment of this carriage.

And like, again, that larger question of if you keep tweaking and subbing in and replacing and updating, that philosophical question of, is the thing still the thing then? At what point does the essence of it change if you've subbed out every, plank in the ship or every wheel and axis on the carriage. But the through line of the bird throughout the episode and this leisurely hobby and sense of freedom and this embrace of something new in Philip's old age. Just not my favorite standalone fill up episode and not my favorite episode of season five, but generally I like that genre of Philip episode.

Natasha, I'm probably going to butcher her name, but it's like, Maca... No, I've never been able to do it. I've never been able to do it in the decades that she's been on screen. You know, Truman Show, Siren, Extraordinaire, incredible actress, love her generally. Really interesting casting here. She's wearing, she's burdened with an all-time 90s wig, honestly. A lot of bang work going on here for Penelope, Natchbull. But, you know, this...

We're talking about the different... major difference in episode one between Matt Smith's Philip and this Philip. But as he mentions at the end of this episode when he's talking to Diana and he's like, you know, I'm fond of you perhaps because you're young and attractive. The fact that he's like carriage racing around with a young and attractive blonde, that feels like Matt Smith Philip to me. So, you know, that's in the mix. But let's talk about Andrew Morton.

And this is a huge thing that had to happen this season. Andrew Steele plays Andrew Morton, the, you know, frankly, a tabloid journalist who found a way to communicate with Diana through her friend, Dr. James Colthurst, this all happened, it's true, to write this massive tell-all about Diana, which is a huge breach of the understanding in the royal family that we don't talk about this stuff. We don't go to the press of this stuff. We don't expose ourselves in this way. And Diana, again, understanding a bit more about celebrity culture in general,

like having just a natural savvy for PR and then also feeling like nobody in the family is listening to her anyway. So someone wants to hear what she has to say. Like she's going to say it. Season four ends with Elizabeth basically being like, I got to go watch my dogs instead of talking to you. So like, you know, the question begs the question. Like if somebody, if people had just listened to Diana, would she have needed to go to Andrew Morton and all of this? I don't know. Should she be required to be silent about this sort of thing? Like, this is the stuff that's plaguing Harry and Megan right now. They are persona non grata because they sat down and talked to Oprah.

Like, they are pulling a page right out of Diana's playbook here and getting their story out there. But it's simply not done. And again, this is the media, the journalism thread that runs this sort of war, the PR war between Charles and Diana or Diana and the larger family that Morton says in this episode, he says, you know, all-out war, basically is what's going down here. How did all of that work for you? Mallory Rubin? More broadly, the way that the royal family has always thought about the press and thought that they could use or control the press has always been like really interesting, you know, thinking about like an episode like 481 in season four. where Queen Elizabeth does the unthinkable,

and they plant, you know, and this leak that the queen is unhappy with Thatcher's position, thinking that it's this like, even though all of her counselors are telling her not to do it, just like thinking that it's this great necessity and an important thing, a character who has long been defined by this belief and advice from others, Queen Mary on down, that the silence, that not saying anything, that not expressing an opinion, even about urgent matters, is a requirement and, in fact, an inherent aspect of the role. And as viewers were like, yes, say the thing.

Say that this is horrible. And then you watch the way that it all comes crashing down in the wake of that. and like the belief that they can control the press, even though there are plenty of times where we do see inside of the office of a given paper or TV station, the conversations and the boardrooms about what it would mean to print something unfavorable

about the royal family. So we see it in all directions. Like that's always been one of the great fascinations inside of the show. Even just media more broadly, like fill up campaigning to broadcast the coronation and like the way the royal family and the members of it think about their image

and what they are presenting to the world. That's always been, like, central to the show. And watching that evolve over time as media evolves and, like, does the royal family's understanding of the evolving nature of media keep pace with the truth

of how consumers are absorbing it? And the answer to that is almost always no. And so Diana is an exception, right? Because she does understand the way that information reaches people. And so, like, to see the sequence of the first series of recording, where she's answering Andrew's questions for the first time. And like the first one is just,

why are you doing this? And she says, like, it finally dawned on me that unless I get my side of the story out there, people will never understand how it's really been for me. And that, that conflict and tension, that you understand you have to say something and get your truth out there because you were being told that part of the system, and Philip makes this great big speech to her at the end about what the system is and what is necessary to maintain it and occupy your role inside of it, silence being such a key part of it. But not every single person's silent. Other people say things. And so then there's a void if you don't fill it. And I mean, so we see throughout the season, I mean, Andrew Morton is certainly to a certain degree manipulating

Diana here, praying upon some paranoia. We'll see that throughout. And it's certainly something that journalists can and will do, which is sort of like, even like the most straight shooter, best journalist that I know, a tactic in order to get a reluctant source to speak to you to say, like, well, don't you want your side of the story represented? You don't want them have their own say. You should have your voice out there. That initial pitch hinges so heavily on the idea that there's another book being fueled by sources close to Charles.

Charles, right? So like get your narrative out there. But I do think, again, it's, Diana has a lot of savvy, a lot of natural savvy, but is also easily manipulated as we see because she's so isolated and so, you know, all this stuff is going on. An episode that I really love of the crown that has to, you know, you mentioned a couple great ones, but season two episode five, marionettes, which is the queen gives this awful speech. and then there's the Pierce-Neer response. And then she winds up giving this Christmas Day speech that becomes like a thing going forward, this idea of the media and the television.

But there's this great speech from her mother, the queen mother, who says, first the barons came for us, then the merchants, now the journalist. Small wonder he makes us to fuss about Kurtzies, protocol, and precedent. It's all we have left the last scraps of our armor as we go from ruling to reigning to what,

to being nothing at all, marionettes, right? And so this idea of, I mean, yes, as someone who has followed royal journalism, there's this thing that there's the palace spokesperson. You don't get quotes from the royals. You get quotes from the palace spokesperson, and then you've got Harry and Megan. And so the palace spokesperson is out there saying whatever they want about the state of affairs of the palace and Harry and Megan feeling like, well, if we don't say our side of it, then it's just that version of it of events of what happened with us, right? And so, and again, what can you control once you open the door to the press in that way?

And the changeability of the press from being simply like the BBC and a few papers in the like 50s and 60s, in British media at least, to the tabloids in the 90s and what has happened for journalistic standards and what can be printed and what can, and the proliferation of what exists. and our fascination with the gossip and all this sort of stuff. So it's, again, that difference, that progression of Elizabeth and her family through the areas of journalism is something that I think is really that the crown is interested in and is really interesting to me. Yeah. Yeah. I think like two of an episode like from season three, Bobbykins, which is another like classic

Philip completely botching it episode where he had. invites in the BBC for this documentary in an attempt to convince the public that the royal family deserves more money and that they are drastically undervalued for their role in life. And so there's this recognition that the royal family needs the media

and needs the cameras and the papers to prop up their celebrity, but they don't always know how to properly use the thing that they're trying to control and the fact that they are often so bad at it. It's like really compelling and of course makes us inclined to like disagree

when a character like Philop or any number of other characters is saying like you have to understand this is the way it is because we've seen those characters across the prior seasons botch it so many times. The Andrew Morton biography is hugely famous, very, very interesting read. And if you don't have time to read it, one of my favorite podcasts you're wrong about did like,

I think a three-part or maybe just a two-parter sort of going through some of the key revelations from that, from that astonishing book. And that's, that podcast labeled Diana Hot Mess Express. And that's sort of like a phrase that's really stuck with me with Diana. Because like as much as I sort of love and admire and you're rooting for her because of, you know,

the system attempting to sort of crush her. under the heel of its boot. At the same time, Diana is like, you know, an unpredictable element of live wire and does some shit that is pretty fucked up. I'm not saying, like, speaking to Andrew Morton is it, but there's some other stuff that happens. So really, really fascinating stuff.

Anything you want to say about this Philip Diana conversation about the system? Don't rock the boat. Ever. And the way she flinches when he says, ever. Yeah, like I think that this episode in some ways that are more successful than others tries to show up the show us the way that Philip has changed or the way that Philip has learned something about himself that he is then projecting onto other people. And, you know, in this particular conversation with Diana, the lecture about the system, it's like gross and appalling to us, especially because we know that he's a character that resented being on the other end of that rebuke so often.

I think that there are other moments in the episode where, like, you hear him say something. You know, he's speaking with Penny at her home, having gone initially to see Norton and then ends up on this carriage driving odyssey with Penny, where, you know, he's talking about the thing that attracted him to Elizabeth in the first place was like the idea that it would be forever and how that longing for stability after the constant upheaval and strife of his youth was like the very heart of the appeal for him. But then he says, you know, it brings its problems too because it doesn't take into account the one thing human beings do the minute they make a commitment to a life together, which is, Penny asks, grow in separate directions. Like that feels true.

to the spirit of Philip, to me, certainly the Philip that we've spent a lot of time with, which is like recognizing the value of the system that he is a part of, but also pushing up against the limits of it specifically when they impact him directly or inhibit something that he wants. I thought the highlight of this episode

was probably like Philip's speech about grief, which is him talking to him talking to him. a penny, not Diana, obviously. But that was very moving. Yeah, I thought the montage of the tapes, like the whole, like watching the tapes go back and forth, this, I love Oliver Chris, who plays her doctor friend, who is just like a guy that I've really loved for a long time.

Like, just the biking back up, the improbability, the cloak and dagger at all the racquetball games, everything that's involved in like getting this to like, again, the process. of getting an ungetable story is always of interest to me. Let's go to episode three, Moomu. This is my favorite episode of the season. And I kind of had an inkling of that the first time I watched it,

and the second time I watched it. I was like, no, I had perfect recall of this episode as I was like before I rewatched it. I was like, I remember every single thing. And maybe part of that is like you can't second screen this because a lot of it is in Arabic and French. So like you have to be like dialed in and paying attention. to every single moment.

But I just, I think the themes that are at play here, this episode that is very little to do with our core royals, but everything to do with them at the same time. And then the performance by Selim Dao who plays Mohamed, which is just like one of an old-timer

crown performance for me. So we're laying track here. It's mostly a Mohamed Al-Fa-Had episode, but we meet his son Doty, Doty Fayed, very famously, very important for the end of Diana's story, obviously. I think it's incredibly smart storytelling to lace him in here in episode three of this season, you know, so that we're not just, you know,

we're just meeting him as he comes into Diana's life officially will have spent some time with him. And I think that that is a really smart storytelling. and then also wrapped inside this larger, first of all, improbable true life thing that, again, another really fascinating figure, Sidney Johnson, played by Jude Akkadigke, who was Edwards Valley,

and then, yes, actually, Mohamed Al-Fayad's valet as well, that figure and that larger idea of the people of the Commonwealth, the adoration of the British monarchy, the ultimate outsiders, the way that Muhammad, who is, you know, not refined and not, you know, and is a brown man and all this sort of stuff, that ultimate outsider, aspirationally looking at the center of the, of the monarchy, how do I get there? How can I work my way up? And then the ceiling, the wall, the door that is there always, no matter what you do, you will not touch the center of this maze. This maze is not for you to quote our dearly departed Westworld. Mallory Rubin. What do you want to say about Moomu?

I also loved this episode. This was my favorite of the opening Batchar and one of my favorites of the season. We moved through a ton of time in this episode. You know, we open in in 46, and then we move across the years and we move across the world. And in that very opening stretch in Egypt, the way that we capture that ambition, but also the understanding that there was something forbidden about it, like the family dinner conversation, I don't save my greatest contempt for them, meaning the British, my greatest contempt is for the Egyptians who look up to the British as gods. And then we cut to the younger members debriefing about this. And we hear Mu Muu say, if we look up to their kings and queens as gods, it's because they are.

And so we understand right away that this is not necessarily a shared thing, even in the most intimate circle of his life. But it is a defining, defining pursuit for him. And yeah, you know, your point about like the cap that is always there and watching over time, taking over the writs, winning an Oscar for their production company for chariots of fire, buying Harrods, working into the stables. on the event, but not in the seat that he thought. And then finally getting to the seat right there next to the queen,

where as the sponsor of that event, it would be his expectation to have that conversation. And even then, I didn't even mention Villa Windsor, refurbishing the Duke of Windsor's Parisian estate to lure the royal family there. And then having Richard fellows in a bunch of suits show up instead to take away the abdication desk and all of the papers that might represent a threat to the family. And the moment where that was a particularly great scene because Sydney and Doty are standing there too. And Sydney says, you know, in essence, I promise you that whatever you're thinking right now,

the Duke of Windsor thought it every day. And Mumu says, what are you talking about? I just made the Queen of England very happy. And like the way that his awareness builds over time to ultimately culminating in this like incredible scene between Moom. and Diana, who takes the seat instead at the end, that he can't break through. He can't get the queen to sit next to him and speak to him even after all of these things that he's done. And what does Diana say? Same.

Like a person who is married into their family. I mean, that was just like a, boy, that was electric. So good. That seemed between them astonishing, honestly. It's a joke joke. That was so funny. I mean, like, you understand. I mean, I think we got it a lot in that Australia tour episode and also the New York visit for Diana at the end of season four.

But, like, there are these moments where you just, like, get it, like, what Diana has to offer. And the frustration, again, that Don Major voiced in episode one of the royal family not getting what an asset they have there. Because what do we, in that moment where Diana and Mumu are, like, having their conversation and she's so good at it. It's so effortlessly winning. And then what do you cut to? You cut to Margaret and Elizabeth watching them. And just sort of like Margaret being the nearness-nirious knightest she can be. What should say?

Like out of the acorn of kindness, the oak tree of happiness or something like that. Yeah, exactly. Just some shit from Margaret and just sort of like Elizabeth being like, oh, go, that worked out. I was worried. I was being rude. Like all sort of stuff. And they're just sort of like, oh, look at them. the outsiders sitting over there together

and here's us the insiders over here. And you're just sort of like, you don't get it at all, man, that like what Elizabeth can do for you in literally almost any situation. There's also, obviously, with that Elizabeth Margaret, observing from a far sequence and that seems to have worked out well line, for us as viewers, of course,

this like incredibly ominous doom hanging over that, knowing how deeply and tragically untrue that will prove to be. So just like, as you noted already, the I think real brilliance of introducing Mumu and Doty this early in the story was really smart to give us that moment, to give us the first moment where Diana and Dode are introduced to, establish this, like, the ease of the relationship between Mumu and Diana, that these are people who would just very naturally enjoy spending time together and find, like, a quick sense of belonging with each other. That was all, like, really expertly done inside of this episode.

And I think, like, again, that tension of, like, there's, like, a heinous streak that runs through. this was the episode you alluded to, your guy, the Duke of Windsor, the abdicator, the former King Edward coming back. Love him. And, you know, this is like a horrific historical figure and Nazi sympathizer.

And we see, like, even in a conversation, like the one that he and Wallace have in Egypt about Sydney, like the roots of, viciousness at the heart of so much of their life and the roots of bigotry and keeping anybody who is not like them at a remove. And then, you know, you watch like this life that first the Duke of Windsor and Wallace and Sydney and then Sydney and Muhammad end up living together. And there's a parallel there because, of course, horrifically, Muhammad wants Sydney removed. Has Doty remove him from this grand reopening of the ritz? It's awful.

It's deplorable. When Sydney is on his deathbed, we watch Muhammad, like, tending to him. Have a genuine emotional reaction to him. And it's like kind of a classic, like, a trope of, like, British film and theater, this idea of, like, the man in his valet and, like, the understanding that can cross class or racial or, whatever, divide, and it's condescending and it's colonialist. And in this situation, it's like a brown man doing that to a black man, honest or something like that. But then there's also just genuine affection and beauty in that relationship as well. It's incredibly complicated.

The fact, so when we were, in the preview episode, when we were picking our best episode of seasons one through four, I almost picked Rigenheight, which is the Duke of Windsor Nazi sympathizer, episode, not because I am down with Nazi sympathizers, but just because the Crown is willing to grapple with these. Edward is one of my favorite characters because he is so complicated and hard to get our arms around and fun and emotionally complicated. All of that is true inside of him and all of that is true inside of someone like Muhammad El-Faed, who is horrible.

but then also magnetic. And again, played by someone incredibly charismatic and gives me a figure, like on its surface, Muhammad is not someone I have any interest in rooting for. He represents a lot of things that I find

completely deplorable, but he's also incredible television. And I really love watching him. It really helps us understand who Doty is in his shadow. the posture he adopts throughout, we talked a lot about posture of like Josh O'Connor or Elizabeth Debicki, but Halita Adala, who plays Doty,

who was also in Moonnight, completely wasted in Moonnight, but was in Moon Night. I was like, you look so familiar to me, why? His, like, sort of subservient posture that he adopts around his dad, as he's sort of trailing around his dad, that he's, like, not approving of his dad's behavior in any regard. guard, but is also happy to draft off of his success. Again, I find that a really compelling and fascinating character to watch, a Charles-esque sort of figure in his own right, which I think is

really interesting. Also, I love the Cherries-A-Fire moment. I was like, when that started, I was like, oh, do a chariot's a fire? I was like, wow. Oh, boy. You up the Vangelis, amazing. Anything else you want to say about this episode? Okay, while I loved this episode, I have one nitpick from a structural making of the crown perspective. Uh-huh. Okay. So we obviously mentioned that the first episode opens with Claire Foy. I understand that going back that far in time necessitates bringing back the season one and two cast in a way that just being like a few years earlier, maybe doesn't necessitate bringing back the season's three and four cast.

But I thought it was confusing to see the season five. To see the season five cast in the season four timeline. Oh, I hear what you're saying. So I was like, that should be Olivia Coleman. Why is that a Mildesston? And then it got, and then it just took me out of it because I had to pause and think about, like, where we were in time. Like, the conversations about Villa Windsor and even the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, racetrack.

Like, that's before 91, which is when this new cast takes over. So that was a great point. That was like strange to me. It was jarring. I hadn't thought about that. I had wondered, I mean, I really love Alex Jennings, so I was really happy to see him. But like, should that have been Derek Jacoby who played, you know, the Duke of Windsor in season four, I think it is? Probably.

But I would rather have that sort of confusing. You're right. You're not wrong. But his flashback was 46, so that made sense. The first time, but then later when he's got the snowy hair and he's like the whole montage, we're talking about what it takes to be an English gentleman, which I loved when he's just like throwing, when he's like not bothering to like hold or like grasp a cigarette with his lip, it's just dangling from his mouth as he's like tossing PG Woodhouse on the table or whatever.

Oh, man. The stop motion. The photography of the golf swing was remarkable. as was the very detailed focus on socks. Sox rolling down with socks. I'm not, again, let us reiterate for the 50th times. We are not monarchists, but do I want to have a little case of socks ready to go, rolled down, ready to go every morning, maybe.

You routinely go through your day saying that afternoon tea is, quote, a ritual to be savored, and frankly, I don't disagree. I think you know that about me. All right. That's episodes one through three. of season five of the crown. We'll be back again later this week with episodes 4 through 6

and then the wrap-up episode as well. Before we go, let's quickly do our awards of this little chunk of the season. Fit Watch. Mali Rubin. So I am going with Anne, Princess Royal, arriving on Britannia,

in just jeans and a sweater. It's like, yes. This is why I love Anne. This is the good stuff. Now, they're always more casual in the Scottish stretches, but I was literally like, I'm wearing that tomorrow to the office. This is the stuff, I know. Absolutely great.

I told you that I watched a whole documentary on Anne after season four. I just, like, love her so much. A fascinating figure. I'm going to give it to, oh, I mentioned this, the preview pod, but the, during the a montage in episode three where we're watching the Duke of Windsor get dressed and we're watching Mohamed get dressed. We also watch Elizabeth get dressed for this event. And she's wearing this purple that number that might as well be Dolores umbridge pink. I just thought it was extraordinary little suit on her, a little purple suit. A wig watch, Mallory Ribbon.

It's got to be John Major for for worst, right? I mean, I didn't sort it. Worse or best? I just sort of I'm just kind of going with like most wig. Yeah. It's just like, that's a wig. Yeah. And like John Major is really up there. And I told you before we record that I was going to have to put John Lee Miller on blast for that.

But like we also, we see the Camilla wig. The Camilla wig. We do glimpse it. Yeah. We glimpse the Camilla wig. So maybe John Major gets it for this because we'll spend more time with Camilla later. So we'll give it to John Major.

Camilla will definitely win week watch in future installments of this podcast without a doubt. Best line of episodes one through three of season five. Okay, so I'm going to go with two. I'm going to go with like a moving one and a funny one. Okay. I'm going with Phillips' speech about grief. I learned then what grief was.

True grief. How it moves through the body. How it inhabits it. How it becomes part of your skin. Your cells. And it makes a home there, a permanent home. But you learn to live with it. It's drastically shifting tones here.

I was in hysterics when Anne was like asking about Tim, asking her mother, the queen, who that was. And, you know, the queen's like, he's just like, that's Tammy's been around. And Anne says, how come I ever noticed? Elizabeth says, because you're married. And Anne replied only technically. killed me.

She's is the best. So good. All right. I don't have, I have a bit of a cheat, but it's only just because it's a back and forth. It's not a singular line. But it's between Diana and Mumu, and you imagine this sort of their affinity as outsiders, right? We have to be serious. There's royalty here.

Yeah. Somewhere. Not anywhere near you there. No matter how much you paid a grovel. You paid a lot. A fortune. For that idea of have you paid a lot. I mean, it's very Thanos. What did it cost everything sort of thing? Like, yeah, you paid a lot. What have you paid to be here? What is Diana paid to be there? But yeah. Yeah, there's royalty somewhere, not anywhere near you. Like, I just love Diana. I mean, who doesn't? That scene is so good. Hot mess express. My best episode of already said is Moomu for me. Mine as well. Okay. Also, also Moomoo. Pretty easily, I think, of the first. I would rank them three one, too, pretty clearly, I think, from this bunch. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. We're not big carriage racing enthusiasts.

It seems... MVP. I was waiting the whole time. They fell up and Fannie, like, that first stroll. I was like, are the wheels about to fall off? Are we going to tumble into this little, like, puddle of water here? But no. It's going to happen to her bangs.

She's also on big watch, I have to say. Okay, MVP in the first three episodes. Are you going with a performer or a character? I haven't decided. So I have kind of, like, my answer, and then my... Wait, is this just going to be my answer? every pod we do for all of season five. It is that okay, which is De Vicky.

Even though these aren't the most Diana-heavy episodes, like astonishingly magnetic in every single second of screen time, right? It literally, I promise you it does say Debicki in my notes, even though I was like, am I going to change my mind the last minute? Because you also said Debicki, then I'll say Salim Da, who plays Mohammed. Like just for, you know, like just jumps off the screen. Fantastic. But to picky.

I mean, she's going to, spoiler, she's going to be the full series MVP, no problem. No, it'll walk. All right. Was that a sports reference? I think so. Okay. That does it. For episodes of 133 at the Crown, we'll be back, as I said.

Thanks, of course, to the great Prince of our heart, Steve Alman, for producing this episode. We'll see you later. Bye. Steve the abdicator. going to be here next episode. That's true.