The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘The Crown’ Season 5, Episodes 4-6 Recap

Episode Date: November 11, 2022

Jo and Mal are back to break down episodes 4-6 of the fifth season of ‘The Crown.' They discuss the characterization of Philip, share their thoughts on the Charles-centric fifth episode, and of course close the show by handing out awards. Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Associate Producer: Mike Wargon Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Heinz ketchup and Kraft singles. Every good burger needs a layer of perfectly milty cheese and thick, rich ketchup. We all know it's not a cookout without Heinz and Kraft. Welcome back into the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson, and uh, join me today. Fresh off a whirlwind world tour of carriage racing.

It is Mallory Rubin. Hi, Mallory. Oh, Joe, people will remark on it and not just because of the theatrical deviation into Latin. We are here back again with you all to talk about the crown. We are now in the midst, the middle of the season of season five of the crown. We're talking about episodes four through six.

So again, if you're listening to this and you haven't watched four through six, I would recommend pressing pause and finishing those episodes. If you are looking for like a preview episode or episodes one through three, those are earlier in the feed. Go back and find them. This is four through six. We're covering Ennis Heruglus. That's my tremendous Latin for you.

The Way ahead. And Apatiev House. That's my terrible Russian for you. So those are the three episodes that we are covering today. Mallory, anything you want to say about this little section of the crown? It's just great to be here with you again to visit numerous palaces and castles, some of which are burning down spectacularly. and are uninsured.

So that's tough. It's a tough look. Saved some of the artwork, though, including all of the artistic prowess when it comes to how to pod. So we're ready to roll. Wow. Wow. Crush that.

Incredible stuff. Let me just say really quickly, in addition to multiple episodes on the ground in this feed that you can find from Malie Rubin and yours. Truly, you can also listen to Bill Simmons and your truly cover White Lotus

every Sunday on the feed. There is a one-off episode about Interview with the Vampire. that I did with Charles Holmes. That was a total blast. You know, equally sexually deviant, I would say, as this section of the crown. And also, I've been saying this every time. But, like, please go back and listen to Charles and Van, talk about Atlanta if you haven't.

It's just really incredible podcasting from them. So that's the prestige feed right now. That's what's going on. There's more to come. Mal just like overall umbrella thoughts of these three episodes as we look at them sort of as a chunk. Like, what did you think of this middle passage of, of? the season. Yeah. Interesting stretch. I think that it gives us a lot of the key parallels that are necessary for understanding the family dynamic at this time. You know, that's particularly

present in episode four where everything that's happening with Elizabeth's children in the present day connects directly to this Margaret Peter plot. And we see the way that these mistakes and these patterns recur over time. And then that idea of like modernization and how can we learn and change and adapt, even if our failures are publicly embarrassing, then becomes the central focus in episode five, et cetera. So episodes four and five, feel like they build on each other pretty naturally in terms of the central theme. I think episode six is of a piece with the season's larger departure from my season one through four love of the standalone Philip episode into the fill-up episodes that don't work as well in season five, which is dismaying for me as a,

as someone who has been very entertained by the character of Philip on the crowd through the first four seasons. But yeah, you know, very Diana light stretch as well, which is really notable inside of the overall structure of the season, which is very Diana-centric. Yeah, I would say that it really reveals how key Diana is to my enjoyment of the season to look at just isolate this chunk of three episodes, see how little of hers in it, and understand that maybe that's why my, interest was fading a little bit. That being said, there's stuff in four, there's stuff in all of them that I really love. And I will agree with you about six, this Philip,

Liz, Soviet Union episode. Except there is like one moment from Amelda Staunton, which I think is like the best Amelda Staunton stuff we get all season. So, there's, there's highs in all of the episodes. So let's just take them

episode by episode. So, episode four, and it's heribulus, and this is an episode that basically Queen Elizabeth wrote for Peter Morgan in that she gives this speech in 1992

where she's like, well, let's see her it's pretty shit, right? And Peter Morgan's like, great, let's just run down all the stuff that happened to Liz. Yeah, let's just use that as the framework for a season of television and sort of help us understand why Elizabeth gave this

uncharacteristic. open speech. Reading the text of the speech itself, the actual speech, not Peter Morgan's flowery embellishments of it, it's actually not that, I don't see the major cracks

that the media did the time where they're like, well, I cannot believe that Elizabeth went out there and said, but that shows you how far we've come from this extremely stiff upper lip, the monarchy never shows even the slightest, you know, sliver of a crack.

in the facade of us as an institution and us as the queen mother in this episode sort of points out to Elizabeth, like, we're not human. We're divine and we're not meant to show ourselves to be human. How does this structure for an episode work for you? What do you make of the speech? What's your biggest takeaway from this episode? So this was my favorite episode of the three here. I'll spoil my awards pick for later for a few different reasons.

I think the fact that it is a Margaret heavy episode. It's just, you know, play in the hits here. I mean, right down to getting some Vanessa Kirby and Bedbiles flashback footage. But the parallels across generations, as mentioned, I think, was effective. The other throughline of this three-episode bunch, which is central to the speech, of course, but then really continues building toward that very emotionally resonant conclusion to episode six that you're teasing and foreshadowed. is something that was really impactful, even a less strong episode overall. That's the real central thrust of these episodes is Elizabeth and her introspection.

And on the one hand, this really, like, staunch, stubborn commitment to the defining principles and moorings of her life, whether that's lessons from Queen Mary about the importance of strength of silence or, the lessons that she has imparted in her own life and in her own family and to the country at large because of her faith. But then also these moments where she has to interrogate through direct conversations and very personal and intimate conversations with Margaret, with Philip, with her children. What impact that rigidity over time is having inside of her family? And it's one of the moments we talk often across crown batches and seasons about this idea of the royal family as a reflection. And it's something that people will tout as the strength in the heart of the symbol of the crown, right?

We heard the prime minister in the opening batch say, this is supposed to be a symbol of an ideal family. Well, what happens when that is no longer true in the people inside of the family, including the person who's been saying to all of the members, you can't do thing X because we need to preserve this illusion of the perfect family, has to reconcile with what that conviction has wrought? So there's this interesting, like, dissonance inside of Elizabeth, I think, where she's like, this is who I am.

these are the things I genuinely believe. These are central pillars in my life, my faith. But look at all of the hurt and heartache around me. All the hurt to everyone around her, and then also as she discovers in episode six, like to herself, what did it get me? What did all this putting duty before everything else get me in the end? And I think, to your point,

if we look at this four, five, six batch, which again, like we sort of divvied up this season, in slightly arbitrarily, but we tried to sort of maintain some arcs. And I think, thinking of these as these refractions of Elizabeth's personality or Elizabeth's roles and key relationships, because in episode four, this is a sister episode. This is a sister moment for her. There's mother stuff in here, too, obviously, Andrew and Ann come calling. But like, this is a sister episode for her. Episode five is a mother episode for her with everything that's going on with Charles and Diana. And then episode six is the wife episode for her. And again, like, again, I do not want to

shove her into just these categories, because of course, she is the boss, as everyone keeps saying, like, you know, she's got a lot of other things going on. And of course, the loves of her life are corgis. But I think, I think looking at the cost, what she has had to pay, that has been a constant question in the crown. Yes. But this idea of, again, also, it makes me think of we're on the prestige feed. We're not on the Ring ofverse Feed, but we've been talking a lot about the show and or, which we both really love.

And we've been talking about this idea of this character, Mom Mothma, who has some connections to Elizabeth, if you care to stretch your imagination. And like, that idea of a civil war at home, of a home divided, and how impactful that can be when you're trying to keep a larger realm or, um, or. empire or rebellion together. Right. You know, the personal, the personal fractures, the personal cost of being that stalwart public figure. Right.

And I think that other, like, that idea of the system, which we talked about a lot in our prior episode batch, in part because episode two was called the system and was very much about that idea. Yeah. And we hear the system mentioned multiple times in these episodes as well. And, you know, to your point about the arcs, I think those first three episodes are really about trying to protect and preserve the system. all costs.

And this is about recognizing the limitations of that kind of unyielding pursuit. Let's talk about Margaret, please. I feel like the show definitely knew what it wanted to do with Margaret in the first couple seasons. But Vanessa Kirby's playing Margaret, it definitely knew what it wanted to do. I think it a little bit less knew what it wanted to do with Margaret in three and four, but Helen O'Bonham Carter is here. And Margaret is in like a really wild phase of her life.

So there is inherent drama in what Margaret is doing there. I think this is the toughest season for them trying to figure out how to keep Margaret connected to the storyline. And so what they do in this episode is basically loop back to season one, Margaret, to give us a reflection of that. I find it tremendously effective. I think Leslie Manville is incredible in this episode. I think all this stuff is so poignant and tender and sad. romantic, you and I both had complete freakouts when we found out, and we both, we didn't know in advance, we found out while watching the episodes that Timothy Dalton was playing this

older version of Peter Townsend. Astonish. Mel, do you want to walk us through your reaction to that? You had teased for me that there was an appearance in the season that just, floored you. Yeah. And then when I got to this, I texted you at all caps. Timothy Dalton is old Peter Townsend.

And I nearly fainted when I realized that this is what was happening. Fainted with glee, to be clear. And he was spectacular. And Timothy Dalton and Leslie Manville were incredible together. And I happily would have watched an entire series with them in this later stage of of their lives reflecting and yearning and longing for the thing that got away, the thing that was and then never was. Like, when they're dancing, when they're looking at each other across the room, when they're

taking the walk, when they're both revisiting their letters, when they're listening to the same song in different places and thinking about each other, like, I was deeply moved by multiple scenes with them in this episode. I just thought this was absolutely spellbinding. Yeah, I think, honestly, you know, I think this stuff with Anasuribolis and Liz and all that stuff in this episode is good. But it really, we could have swelled the Margaret stuff out to fill the whole episode as far as I was concerned. The use of music, because Margaret has throughout been this sort of, we've seen her do a little musical number, you know, with every iteration. This one is part of a montage. But to see her back at the piano singing, to see her go into that party. in that genuinely awful but stylish for the time pink dress, which I looked up is modeled after a real dress that Margaret wore that same year, not to that event, but that same year. To have her be in the, you know, her mom's there, Anne's there, she just looks awkward and

unsure of herself and what it's going to be like to reconcile. She's going to leave. He asks her to dance. She's like, no, no, no. They start dancing as a little awkward. and then it's just magic. It's just like liquid. It's just, and the way that it's shot and the way that it, like, there's a slight ramp

down to slomo at one point to capture just like what it feels like to dance with someone you love. And I'm going to start crying. Dalton is like so gallant and so wonderful. And the flashes to Ben Miles and Vanessa Kirby as we get the letter reread. And I really don't think there's anything more romantic someone can say to someone else then I kept all of your letters. Truly.

We don't have that anymore. I archived all your texts. I archived all of your texts. I printed out of the early emails. We don't do that anymore. Oh my God. I bound them up in ribbons and put them in boxes, tuck them away to read them some day.

It's just like, um, absolutely beautiful, beautiful. I loved it. And the way that it's, you know, Peter Townsend did pass away in 1995. This is set, this is in 1992, the Anna's Herubilus. But the way that I love the way that it's not, I mean, maybe you'll disagree with me, Mallory, given your fondness for horny content.

But I like that it's not really acted on. It's just like a sweet, a sweet tender kiss. And was our love something real? Was our love something that lasted for you? Did you think about it all this time the way that I thought about it all this time? I had a happy enough life. But like, was this thing precious to you? I need to know here at the end of my life.

And that's just absolutely gorgeous. Mallory Rubin, did you feel like they should have reconnected a little bit more concretely than they did? Listen, you know, we all contain multitudes and contradictions. So did I look at my TV and shout? Fuck! Maybe. What I have loved to that? I can say.

But no, ultimately, I do agree. I actually thought that the loveliest and most moving part of this episode was the payoff the bookend, you know, Peter echoing back the sentiment that Margaret had expressed during the radio interview where she's sharing this song and we know and he knows thinking about him and their love and their time together and says one has many first loves when one reaches a certain age. One cannot help embarking on an audit of the heart, a review. And one considers all those loves, those dreams and youthful passions in the context of a whole life. And it's interesting. to note what indoors.

And then when they're speaking later and he says to her, and I suppose I wanted to know if our love in the context of a whole life had been a fleeting one or a lasting one, and like they don't need to answer that for each other. There's just that look and that small smile and that tender, gentle, fleeting little kiss, and then the forehead, like, farhead nuzzle, just perfect, like pitch, pitch, pitch, perfect, beautiful. And also this idea of something being, very sad. Very sad. And this idea of something being like beautiful because it's ending or because you can let it go. Like, you know, she has this moment where she sits down in like one of her a million different beautiful dressing gowns and like,

you know, reads through his letters. Heartbreaking. Timothy Dalton does an incredible job, like, reading them out. And then she get, presumably she gives him back his letters. He gave her her letters. And I would photocopy. I don't know. What did you give up those letters? But that's sort of the whole point is like it's a beautiful thing. Hold it loosely, let it go sort of thing. Or alternatively, no, I don't know what I was going to say.

What do you, Mallory, would you give back those letters? Would you photocopy them for yourself? What would you do? I would keep them forever. I would never let them go. I would sit alone in my beautiful. dressing gowns, drinking and smoking and nuzzling my dog rum and weep and then look out the window longingly thinking about the one who got away. That's definitely what I would do without question.

How high would your hair be hair sprayed while you were doing it, though? That's my question. I think you know I would just have it pulled back into like a low neck bun and I would be wearing plaid pajama pants and a loose fitting Henley, which is what I'm wearing right now. But, you know, Joe, it's like, I think that real romanticism that you're identifying and this like shared understanding that they both have, even though Peter did go on. And Elizabeth, of course, goes out of her way to point this out to Margaret, to remind Margaret of this, had a happy life. Like, married kids, grandchildren, a family of life, right? Yeah. But, you know, you can hold more than one thing in your heart at once.

and he still carried this enduring affection and love for Margaret and she for him. And I think that's like one of the really sad things is that she didn't have a happy life without him. And like even though she gets the peace enclosure of that moment with him, of those moments with him and getting to reflect and like live in that space with him again, it's not a peaceful thing for her ultimately because she's full of resists. resentment and brings that to Elizabeth and says, this is what you took for me. This is what you deprived me of. And one of the things that I really love about Margaret is the way that those, as a character, is like the way that those contradictions manifest. Because when she's saying to Elizabeth, like, you're giving Anne the thing you didn't give to me. There's almost like a pettiness to that. But the thing that prevents us from feeling that is the dominant emotion is that we see her with

Anne saying, like, hold on, get ready and fight for this if this is what you want. And then Anne gets to live that life. And so even though Margaret is carrying that despair with her, that she didn't get that, she is also hoping that Anne will and wants that for Anne. She's not like, well, just because I didn't get this, doesn't mean you shouldn't. But she does say to Elizabeth, why couldn't I have also had this? Of course, it leads to the sun and water conversation that Elizabeth then ports into her speech as a way to apologize to Margaret and say.

I heard you, and the thing that you're saying you didn't have is ultimately what you and all of the other people in the family who I'm confronting whether I've let down have been for me, this nurturing presence in my life, the people who have been there to support me. And I understand what it would mean to not have that. And what's wild about this chunk of these three episodes is we have this moment in this episode where, you know, Margaret has said, what is Philip into you, all the ways in which he's interceded and been your pillar? of support. Could you have done this without him? I didn't have that, et cetera. We then directly see Philip intercede with Queen Mother when she's saying, don't give the speech.

You know, we are divine. We do not show people this. And he intercedes on her behalf. Love that. Love the Queen Mother being like, where did this attitude come from, right? And then Elizabeth says that he has supported her unconditionally from day one. And I'm like, no, I've seen the crown. Too bad that I've watched this show The Crown Elizabeth

that I know that that's not true. And we'll see the real scales fall from her eyes in a couple episodes from now about that. But to have her here like wholly diluted in that notion. And again, it's a slight bone I have to pick with the Crown this season because I think this characterization of Philip, he is like so stalwartly in support of her in multiple instances and multiple scenes.

Like, you know, no one's so dutable, you know, she's done all of this and they do this to her with the Victoria's Syndrome, talking to Diana, all this sort of stuff. And then to have what we get in episode six, it feels like two different Phillips, honestly. And I have trouble reconciling them. On the queen mother front, I will just say that apology, that word shouldn't be in your vocabulary. It's like an all-timer. It's such a funny insight into how out of touch the royal family is and how. Isn't that what something you said to be the day? I started at the ringer.

I would never. I would never. But yeah, on the Philip front, I agree and I don't. I think on the one hand, that contradiction has always been present in Philip. Like this intellectual, rational recognition that this is the system,

his role, his job is to support and prop up Elizabeth. And a love for her, genuine affection, but entwined inextricably and eternally with his own restlessness and impatience and frustration and often, like, debilitating inadequacy that then leads him to do something irresponsible, stupid, or hurtful to the people around him. Weirdly, actually, like, I think when it happens more often those swings and closer together, it just feels like who he is. But in season in five, it's like very like a whole block of him being super supportive and loving.

And then a whole block of him just being like, let me go carriage driving with my hot new friend. With Penny. My companion. I think we, I think we completely actually agree. Because I think that if it were, that duality were constantly present in him in every episode, it would feel smoother. Which I think it was with like in the Matt Smith years. Yes. Yeah.

But it feels sort of siloed off. Yeah. into certain episodes. All right. You know, we have the fire. We have the speech. Anything else we want to say about episode four? Andrew, awful.

Anne. I did write a book. It looks very dreary. I don't know if you clicked through on this link. I have one in the docs. But we love Anne. We're like Anne's like number one supporters. But she wrote a book called Writing Through My Life.

And it just, it's just like peak horse girl energy from from Anne in her book. It's amazing stuff. I think like just that, you know, again, obviously. all of the conversations with the children with Andrew Ann and Charles connect again to this, this Margaret plot, but they also, all three of those conversations are really different.

It connects back to like an episode, the favorite where Elizabeth is trying to figure out who her favorite child is. And like, we see the nature of her interaction with all of them. But like, I loved the way that Anne just ran through everything she's given to the family every day and then said, well,

you cannot have all of me. I will not give all of me. And they just walked down and said, this is what I'm going to do. And on the one hand, it's, like, not a reasonable expectation to have of every single character in the show that they would have, like, the strength and conviction to say that and do that. But it is, like, amazingly energizing to see when Anne does. And then you have these swings because, like, in her conversation with Charles, one of the things that she says,

and again, it's a journey as she's working through this, particularly given her role in the church, which is such a central thing in her life. She says, you know, God's laws that marriage is for life, but also being happily married is a preference rather than a requirement. And I was like, and again, this is a stretch where in many cases we feel very empathetic and sympathetic toward Elizabeth. But a moment like that, I'm like, that's like the high sparrow to marjorie shit, you know? Like, this is really bleak and like really terrible. And so you have the empathy for the children there too. And speaking of Game of Thrones, standing inside of the inside of the inside of. Windsor after the fire. I was like, this looks like the throne room after the bells. My goodness. Yeah. Yeah, dragons been here. Shout out to Peter Morgan for calling out the fire metaphor. I mean, like, this again, if this hadn't all happened to Elizabeth in one year, which it did, and more besides, because the child stuff that happens in the next episode actually happened in this year as well, maybe they just thought, like, people really won't believe if all of this happens in one year. But like the fire capping it all, if it hadn't actually happened, would feel like terrible television to be like, okay, we get it. But at least like Margaret Swans in and calls it a metaphor.

So that was pretty funny. I mean, yeah. Yeah, Margaret. Good sleep is everything. That's why Ali's science back support is made with a blend of melatonin and L. Dianine for both kiddos and grownups. So when your mind won't switch off, you've got something that can help. You're racing thoughts and restless nights Won't stand a chance

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Don't just dream about the trip. Book it with Priceline. Download the Priceline app or visit Priceline.com. Actual prices may vary, limited time offer. All right, so the way ahead, this is very much a Charles episode, and we start a little back in time in 1989 with this conversation with Charles and Camille

that we don't get the full sense of, until the media decides to print it later. Again, to go back to some stuff that I was preoccupied in episodes one through three, this idea of the media through line throughout the season. Even Anna's Horribulus, which is like you can watch that speech,

like people can watch that speech. That is like a public performance media follow up to that sort of marionette's Christmas speech, Queen Elizabeth stuff from the earlier season. Here we've got... It was what says to her mother, like, I'm happy for them to know, right? then being the public.

Yes. Here we have tabloid journalism. And it's like even the tabloids, even the rags are like, we cannot print this conversation that happened between Camilla and Charles because we do not want to be responsible for, you know, breaking up a marriage. Right. But let's buy it so that one of our competitors. We don't want anyone else to have. I don't have it either. But yeah, this is the one time maybe where the Daily Mirror took some tiny, I won't even call it the high road.

I'll call it the medium road, you know. Their situation, their arrangement is so interesting. And we get it from like such, like so few context clues of like he calls her. She's in the middle of like a Christmas celebration with her family. Kids are there. Her husband picks at the phone. He knows what's about to happen, right? And he's just sort of like making small talk with the prince while his wife goes upstairs

to have agonizing with him essentially. Agonizing. And like this carries through the whole episode

until, you know, it's one of those things where he's like, I know exactly what's happening until everyone knows what's happening. I can be okay

with it. And then everyone knows because this interview Charles gives and then once I've been publicly embarrassed and we have

legions of photographers hounding us outside of our home, I can no longer tolerate to your

long-running affair. The family setting and the holiday setting was just unbelievable, but the inclusion of the minute of anguished small talk was just like. But also the little girl would be like, mummy. You're like, oh my God, sorry,

mummy has to go dirty talk to the Prince of England. Okay, so Prince of Wales. Okay, so we're going to get to the way ahead group in a second, but I just think we should run down tampon gate all the way through. Please. I just want to read this. incredible quote from our guy Josh O'Connor that he gave in 2020 in a serious XM interview

where he said when they offered me the role of Charles, one of my first questions was, I say questions, I think it was pretty much a statement, we are not doing the tampon phone call. This was my one chance for my parents to see something with no shame and there's no way I was scuttle that by talking about tampons on Netflix. So like tampon gate was like looming large for Joshua Connor as he was playing Charles in the last couple seasons. And it's, but it's Dominic West's job to get it

done here. But it technically should be Joshua Connor. It should have been, because this is 89. And this is, again, this circles back to my issue, it's not a huge issue, but my issue with the Dominic West casting, because like a mad, like the

awful, cringy, terrible things he says, like, going to press the tit, like stuff like, that, not to mention the whole tampon thing. I just can't imagine Dominic West, Charles, ever saying that, but I can't imagine Josh O'Connor's just like, Nirmie, I don't know what I'm doing with myself, Charles, saying it.

Like, it just seems so much more of that, Charles, than a this Charles thing to do. Dominic West makes some great points in an interview. He gave out of her tone weekly about, like, how horrifying of an invasion of privacy this is. And I agree with all of that. and I don't want to be an asshole. But this is just objectively one of the most astonishing. And like this man is now the king of him.

I mean, he's unbelievable. Yeah, you know, like that this happened. Yeah. And word for work. Like Peter Morgan embellishes all over the place. This is I. You don't need to inform you. I regret to inform you.

I looked up the transcript of the phone call and this is word for word. What happened there? Mal what do you want to say about Tampa Gate here? Not to like jump all across the outside. episode, but I think one of, you know, one of the crown's strengths typically is editing and cutting between different storylines, different characters, sometimes even different moments in time, different settings. Yeah. The montage of everybody reading this and the different facial expressions. Oh, my God.

Really just astonishing work from the entire cast here. And yeah, like you have that discomfort as a viewer that you presumably would have as a person in real time where there's this like magnetic pull and you do want to hear what's next. Like you cannot pull yourself away. You're just like riveted and in awe, but also like horror. Uncomfortable, horrified. Yeah. In part because of what you said, like it is such an invasion and then it's so embarrassing. and I liked the way the episode really, like, centered that embarrassment,

including in the great scene with Anne and Charles, where she calls it, says it was a bit gyneological, categorical for her taste. But then, like, even inside of that moment, she's poking fun at him. And then says, basically, like, but once I, like, finished gagging over this, I was kind of touched by this display of love. And that's, again, that, like, one of those, I've said the word contradictions.

like 500 times already today, but it's very present in the Charles character and certainly very present in this stretch of the show. Like, that is ever present with Charles and Camilla, even as you're watching people's lives be destroyed and you're appalled by the disrespect and the hurt that they're inflicting on the people in their lives. It's like, these people wanted to be together. And the forces that play around them, at least on Charles's side, wouldn't allow it. And the fact that this is like the great love of Charles.

his life and like this is how he's expressing it is just such an astonishing wild thing. And again, like, I resent Charles so much for all the injury that he did, Diana, absolutely. But the same time, it's like the character, the idea of a Camilla, who is not, again, like, a string of like hot 20-year-olds or, you know, fleeting. This is like an enduring. I actually genuinely want to call you for advice on my speech. It's like the one person you trust in the world. Yeah, and then say weird things about pressing your tit. But, like, first, let's actually go over my speech.

I want your opinion on it. Or when they're taking a walk, you know, through the countryside, you know, and she's just on his side. Like, there is something very lovely about that. And it goes back to this idea that we're talking about in the queen's speech in the previous episode, this idea of humanizing. This is what Anne says. Like, it's just terribly human, you know, teenagers of a certain age.

This is what shines through. And oughtn't we be allowed to be human? And isn't it an interesting thing? I've been thinking a lot about, again, as we think about tabloid culture, media culture, in this time in the 90s, it's a real beginning of a shift. The 90s and tabloid culture did so much to sort of pull down these pedestals where we put certain celebrities or politicians and that sort of stuff. from, we're unveiling their messiest sides in this, you know, fairly despicable side of the media, which is tably culture, right? Not fairly despicable, right? And then as that progresses, as, as physical tabloids then in the early odds become, like, online gossip blogs, which then turn into

social media, which is the celebrities themselves, you know, revealing, like, this is what it looks like inside my home curated, but, like, you know, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is who I am. And as we move from prising celebrities that we put on pedestals that feel divine, that feel removed, that our royalty, towards responding towards people who feel genuine, which is part of Diana's allure, was, you know, that she wore her emotions and her messiness on her sleeve. As we as a culture move away from worship to they're just like us in ways that feels, you know, familiar and you can emotionally, you can have your parasycial.

relationship with a celebrity because you, you know, know that one time they threw themselves in front of their wives' cars because say she was taking salad dressing to Harry Styles or whatever it is, you know, like that's, all of that is where we've gone. And the institution of the monarchy, as expressed the generations, the queen mother through Queen Elizabeth, through Charles, and eventually sort of, you know, William and Harry, like their understanding of, oh, maybe I don't have to be an institution. Maybe I can be a person. But if I'm a person, then what is the point of the monarchy at all? Right? Because what does the British, does the UK need very wealthy, messy, humans at the center of it? Or does it need an enduring stiff upper lip institution? And if

we're just people, then what is the point of us? And part of that feeds into then this other strain of the episode, which is the way head group and Charles's idea. I've got a bunch of friends who who are Charles defenders, and it's always interesting to talk to them about it. And they were like, listen, he is, like, he does really care about the environment. And he is incredibly, like, progressive. And he was the first royal to be self-sufficient, self-sustaining. Like, he doesn't get an annuity. He generates his own income, that sort of stuff. Obviously, from a tremendous point of privilege, but, like, that these are important things to him, that that is genuinely true. And all of that is wrapped inside of a messy, messy, messy.

guy stuck in a really messy situation, you know? Yeah, well, and I think that, like, there's a lot of conversation, a lot of the narrative around this season in particular, as we've chatted about in our preview episode in the first episode, about, like, whether this season is really unkind toward the royal family and, like, irresponsible in some of its liberties with the facts. Yeah. I would argue, as a person watching this in America who is not directly connected or not. in any of these facts. So, like, I, you know, it's, it's a biology of very certainly, and I'm sure it does. That there's a version of this episode, which opens with, like, an incredibly unsympathetic scene where Charles is just, like, whining and complaining and calling himself a useless ornament

and lamenting how his good fortune is just like this gilded prison and he's not allowed to contribute or do anything. And then this, like, great embarrassment and one of, one of the most public. public and defining scandals of a very public life are like centerpieces of the episode, the opening note of it and the main centerpiece of it. And you would say, well, this would be like a like a like a hit job or a really unflattering portrait. I don't think it is at all. I think it's quite a, uh, uh, an episode that really works hard to not only humanize Charles and help us live inside of that contradiction and say, okay, yes, this is a person who has inflicted this

neglect and this harm on someone we care about deeply, and we see that. And this is also somebody who, like, is progressive and thoughtful and is asking a lot of the questions that we would be and that we are about, well, what is our role in society? What should it be? How can we modernize this idea of a welfare monarchy, stripping away the divinity and the magic, like something that would be so sacrilegious for anybody to say coming from the heir to the throne and the future king is this kind of like amazingly refreshing and modern thing to hear and then I think one of the other things inside the episode structurally that really earns our our feelings and like empathy is that this again connects to the media and using the media this interview right where Charles is very

He's got some... Speaking of people who have thoughts on season five. Very frank and candid and revealing and unvarnished with the public. In part, because, like, what is happening inside of his own family? There's the tenderness with Anne. Yes, the scene in bed with the cold medicine, the asparagus, fresh from the garden, lunch, etc. But his father is shaming him and ridiculing. him at the War Council table, making him recite the motto, the Welsh motto,

better death than dishonor, and then saying, are you still here and dismissing him like he's a misbehaving child, which to Elizabeth and Philip, he often is? And that's just like, man, you feel bad for him when you see that, which is, I think ultimately the note of the episode. I need to know how you felt when he broke out the Welsh, of course. Oh, I felt great. I love, I love, I as you know, like any excuse to think about my favorite episode of The Crown, season three, episode six, a delight for me. So that was, that was great. Topped in this episode by the break dancing, probably, though.

Oh, yeah. I can't believe we've gone this far without talking about the break dancing. This is, of course, a true video that you can go watch yourself. It's from the 80s, but it is a real L to the OG Kendall Roy moment if I ever saw one in my life. But the way that group is so interesting because, you know, so this is a real thing that started in 92 The Wagon behind the group as Charles renamed it at his own court

But it's responsible for things like the queens deciding to start paying income tax Or pay for the refurbishment of Windsor herself And all this sort of stuff So that is interesting But yeah I love the way that those two scenes are framed Because they call the family The system is one thing

The firm is the other thing they call it And who is the clear C.E? of this firm, it's Philip. He calls Elizabeth the boss, but it's Philip running these meetings both times. Elizabeth just sits there, right? And so in the next episode, we'll talk about- And Phillips instincts for public image maintenance have never backfired on the family before. So I'm sure it's all going to be fine. Glad to have him in charge. But like in the next episode, when he whines about everything that he's given up, his career is every, you know, when Philip starts his winding, I'm like, buddy, you're the head of the firm that is the royal family that is like one of the

powerful things in the like you have a great job actually um and you get to carriage race all over the world so what are you complaining about is my question but um yeah the prince's trust which is a real like incredible thing that that prince charles has done so yeah i think smashing together his biggest humiliation inside of some of the real good that he did in the 90s throughout his life inside of this dimbleby interview which they they shot that over a year and a half is what I found out. It's like a two and a half hour special that took them a year and a half to make.

And again, so close to the Andrew Morton book and all of that with Diana, this is Charles, a bit learning how to play this PR war, the war of the whales is, is what it was called. But like, he's starting to learn how to play his own PR war.

And he's like, okay, I have to give my interview and my version. And that's where he, like, fully admits to the affair with Camilla. He doesn't name Camilla, but Camilla was confirmed

as the person the next day by his secretary, so like might as well have. The interview is so aggravating and frustrating and humiliating to Diana that she breaks out this very famous revenge dress, you know? So like, again, a lot of messiness tied up with a lot of triumph. And to your point, I think it perfectly skates the line of what the crown is often doing, which is like harsh criticism or reveal of painful truths alongside, hey, but we should consider. some of the good that, you know, these, these ridiculous people have done in their time. Yeah.

Year and a half, very long time, but Joe, not every line comes to you as organically and naturally as God, I wish I could just live inside your trousers or something. So every now and then you need time to workshop it. We're fine. We're fine. We're fine. All right. Episode six, Apatio house.

This is Boris Yeltsin comes to Windsor. comes of lunch with the queen. We start with a flashback to George Fifth, who is Elizabeth's grandfather, played by Richard Delaine, who's Stephen Delane's brother, fun fact. And, you know, we get this,

this is a hotly disputed piece of history, but this idea that George V and his wife, Queen Mary, Queen Mary, who we met in the beginning of the crown, played by Eileen Atkins, that they were the ones, who decided to not extend the help to help Tsar Nicholas and his family out of Russia when they needed it most. This is hotly contested. I read a lot of articles about this at this point.

Some people are happy to blame George and Mary. Some people say there was no saving the Tsar no matter what. Nothing could have been done. But what is true is that at one point, the English parliament was going to send a ship and then they did it. That is true. Edward, my guy. Once again, the Duke of Windsor's letters and diary entries and that loose flowing pen coming back into play. Also, yes, of course, King George, the fifth, did have a parrot, and I'm so glad that it is here in this episode.

A love for animals runs through this family, and this episode concludes with just honestly, like, a lovely little dog. treat and play session with Elizabeth and the corgis that I thought was so sweet and loved. And Philip is like, I can't believe that's my wife. And this is a real low episode for Philip for me. Like, this is maybe the most I've ever hated him. And I had some moments in the first two seasons where I really hated him as played by Matt Smith, but like always compelled by him. Yeah. I was so frustrated.

I mean, maybe the low, it's hard to say what the lowest point is. it might have been because I read snicker at his wife when asking her about DNA and mitochondria and whatever or it might have been the moment when he was like,

you have to publicly befriend this young blonde woman that I've been seen carriage racing with. You have to do that. How are you feeling about Philip in this episode, Mallory Rubin? It's a rough one for Prince Philip.

there have been many, many, many moments across the first four seasons of the crown where he's an asshole and is biting in his humor in a way that he is very amused by but can be quite wounding to the people around him. One of the things I felt really distinct here is that like there's no like levity, even if it is a mean-spirited levity, it's just cruelty and like a real lack, yeah, a real like lack of feeling or not even like a lack of awareness for maybe how your words are wounding someone, but almost like a desire to wound through your words. And there's a part of that to me that feels like honestly like very true to marriage or like sometimes you say something really

hurtful to the closest person in your life. But like the things that he is saying, you mentioned the reading thing. In general, like harping on Elizabeth's lack of. curiosity and like knowing as the closest person to her in her life that that has been a great source of insecurity and anxiety for her, like her education and what she doesn't know and will she be embarrassed in a conversation that has high stakes, like was just so deeply mean. Awful. It was terrible.

I was enraged when he says I'm more energetic, more curious. Yeah, he never calls her stupid, but he's essentially calling her stupid this entire episode. And I wanted to, like, fly through my screen and slap him. I was so mad. And, like, what, you know, the parallels that we're seeing here. And again, if this had just been sort of like leavened with something else, as you said, or if it were peppered throughout other episodes, too. So it didn't just seem like such a, like, this is the episode where Philip is a dick.

because we need to make some sort of comparison to the Cold War and Russia and England and their marriage. But I do think it's interesting to think about the ways in which Philip and Elizabeth, I mean, the Crown has been preoccupied with this throughout, but thinking about Charles, making Diana feel like a piece of shit on that yacht

for just wanting to go shopping when they're in Italy. Right. And just really sneering at her over that and what Philip does here and the humiliation that Elizabeth feels with his sort of publicly gallivanting around with this woman. And the way that Elizabeth, as far as I know, is unable to see the parallels between her own circumstances and Diana's circumstances. But the way in which this episode underlines that, despite those two women being extremely different temperament-wise, this idea of a Philip and a Charles and the way that they treat their life.

like quote-unquote silly. I don't believe they're silly, but they treat their wives like they're silly women, right? And the humiliation of that, the aggravation of that. And, you know, we already teased this a couple times,

but Mel de Staun just has this moment. Also, Penny just like doing, like, Penny winning no favors with me with her, like, outrageous theory that the reason that Mary denied the Romazas, because he was jealous. Right.

Of the Zarina. Speaking of metaphors, let's talk about, yeah, two women, one might have wished death upon the other for her jealousy. I thought that, you know, we've chatted a lot in our pods already about how one of the show's strengths typically is showing this like internal life of a very public family and a very public figure. And for Elizabeth inside of this episode, I will say generally this episode was my least favorite of the batch and like one of my least favorite, maybe my least favorite of the season actually, even though there were things in it that I, that I, that I, that I, that I liked and thought were interesting.

But one of the things that structurally was intriguing was the way that the humiliation plays out on the public and private fronts and which one ultimately wounds the deepest. Because it's the moment in Windsor Castle where Elizabeth has to watch Penny walk into like the secret room in the archive. And it's like, oh, right. you know your way around here. Like in that just instant,

you see how you fill in the blanks in your head, like how much time they've spent together, how much time they've spent in that room, the way that they're talking about all of these books that she's read together. And that's not something that Elizabeth and Philip are sharing. And, you know, her just real, like, despondence and the letdown that she feels

when the trip to Russia doesn't become this, like, shared passion and shared experience. She's trying to make, like, little jokes. Yeah, they iron curtain on the flight. And he just, like, can bear it. barely be bothered to give like half of a chuckle. And then we're seeing him at a joke. I know.

And then we're seeing him just like mucking it up at parties with his like hand-drawn doodles of modern science. And, you know, it's just, it's like the moment inside of their home where she's like, right, this has reached inside of like our private space. The space where in the wake of the fire, like we saw them embracing each other and like mourning and grieving together. So that was just agonizing. And, like, that line about the way silence works its way into your DNA. And, like, for Elizabeth, she's not, as we see in this earlier sequence that we've discussed,

it's the, this is all new to her, the actual science of it. But that emotional truth at the heart of it. And there's this conversation between Penny and Philip. They have a conversation about determinism. So I was like, I don't know what this is doing here, but this is one of my favorite things in general. So, okay. But, you know, Elizabeth's version of that is like this, and Queen Mary is in this episode, right? So, like, she's a character we think of as, like, imparting a lot of that down to Elizabeth. You need to stay silent. Don't show them what you think or what you feel

ever. That's your role. And then, like, for Elizabeth to reflect on the way that that private grief had become this, like, defining aspect of her personhood, which is really devastating. I, every time I've rewatch that sequence where Melda Stanton like holds the tears back and like sort of just dabs pokes at her eye, doesn't let the tears drop under her face. Absolutely excruciating. And I think I think what aggravates me even more about Philip on top of all of this is like he's mocking Elizabeth for not having asked the questions that he thinks she should have asked about this whole DNA extraction identifying the Romanoff's project. And then we see him. sort of lecturing to Penny, instructing Penny. And it's this very, like, insidious thing that you see where, like, usually men, but, like, I'm sure it's true of both genders where it's like, I want to be the, like, the contradiction of him wanting to be the one to instruct,

to lecture, to inform, but mocking his wife for not knowing the thing, but taking pleasure and instructing this younger woman, Penny in what's going on. Right. And, like, Penny is, yeah. He harps on that. that idea of curiosity specifically because it flatters his ego if someone is curious and expressing that curiosity by saying, tell me about this thing, you smart man, who knows things, tell me about it.

Oh, boy. You know, the one thing we didn't mention about episode four, Joe, that I wanted to just quickly shout out here because it connects to this larger, the through line of these episodes about the relationships inside of this family. The moment where Margaret and Elizabeth tell each other they love each other on the phone and And like, Margaret's that one for classic. Yeah.

God, that was middle class. Promise me. We'll never do that again. Never. Bits, which was obviously, like,

amusing. But you do really feel it like, they don't say that to each other. Like the love is just so absent. And the people in this family are craving it and longing for it. But they also kind of have been taught to fear expressing it. Yeah. Sad.

All right. She's your awards awards for these. three episodes. Let's do it. Can Timothy Dalton win all of them, even if it doesn't make sense to a particular award to him? That's the award for episodes four through six. Timothy Dalton. Timothy Dalton. All right. Fit watch. I mean, it's got to be the revenge dress. Yeah, it's like an iconic piece of royal fashion here in these episodes. How could it be anything else? We needed more Diana, but the Diana we got was pretty great. I also really liked her, well, she wore this like lavender plaid suit as like sort of her last.

I was reading interview with the costume designer over at Vanity Fair and she was talking about how like the, that lavender check suit that she wears is a way to like match Elizabeth because we've seen Elizabeth in that color. Match Elizabeth, but like not overwhelm Elizabeth. It's like a demure version of Elizabeth's like bolder version of those suits. It's interesting. So yeah, that's the fashion is always remarkable in the show. But the other thing, you know, we mentioned it's not a Diana heavy stretch, but some of the brief moments that we do get with Debicki, like the facial expressions reading the Tampongate article and then the just despair watching the interview.

When she, there's a point where she just like crawls into bed fully dress, like closes the, closes the curtain, just crawls from bed. Devastating. Yeah. Devastating. incredible. Whig, watch. Camilla outside. It's,

I mean, in the wind. Ill Force winds blowing on that wig and it stayed in place. That's a good wig. It's astonishing stuff. Yeah. Really great.

It's easier to do a wig if you've got bangs. That is just universally true. But like, that is a good wig. That's a great wig. All right, best line. I think it'll be, it's the,

the, the Margaret one I already mentioned about the audit of the heart is like my emotional pick. I thought that was really lovely and I was very touched by that idea of the context of a whole life and what endures. But I'm also going with Margaret for my Zinger winner here because I was in stitches. It was a bit gyatological for my chase. That's a great one. And yeah, Margaret Singer, yeah. Margaret writing to Peter and saying I would say keep your eyes open for a diminutive 60 year prune but mercifully time hasn't touched. me at all and I'm entirely unchanged. So funny.

I loved her. Okay. I spoiled my own pick, which is Anne saying it was a bit guillological for my taste. We love Anne always. Great in this episode. Best episode I already know yours. It is number four. It's four. I'm going to give it to number five. Just break dancing. I can't. I really liked five too. I like four and five a lot. Yeah, six. We are looking at you. All right. MVP. Are you giving it to Dalton? What are you going to do? With much love and respect for Dalton, it was just a delight to us.

It has to be a Maldaston. Yeah, it's a Malthus. Correct. Correct. All right. Holding back the tears, I regret to him for you. You only have one more episode covering The Crown to go. We'll be covering 7 through 10 next.

I know. I could talk to you about corgis forever. Brandi? Cherry. With that. Rum. We'll be back with that episode coming. soon. This episode was produced by the great Mike Worgan, and we appreciate you all, and we'll see you soon.

Bye.