The Prestige TV Podcast - 'The Crown' Season 5, Episodes 7-10 Recap

Episode Date: November 14, 2022

Jo and Mal get together to talk about the last four episodes of Season 5 of 'The Crown' on Netflix. They dissect their favorite scenes and react to the remarkable acting performances, particularly Elizabeth Debicki's depiction of Princess Diana. They end the pod by making their predictions for Season 6 and handing out their awards. (1:20:23) Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Associate Producer: Chris Sutton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons. I have some good news for you. The hottest take. It's back. Oh yeah. Monday through Thursday, four times a week. You hear from me, Chris Ryan, Sean Fantasy, Mallor Rubin, Wazdine Lambray, Van Lathen, Julie Lipman. Many other ringer staffers. You get one take. You got a defendant to the death. Sports takes. Pop culture takes. Food takes. Airplane takes. Oh, yeah. It's coming back. First episode drops. August 29th. It's time to refresh your yard during spring backyard days at the Home Depot. Get low, price is guaranteed on propane grills starting at $179, like the next grill three-burner gas grill. Or get $50 off a select Weber Spirit grill and bring big flavor to your backyard. Then set the scene with Hampton Bay string lights that bring it all together. Shop spring backyard days for seven days at the Home Depot.

Now through May 6th. Exclusion supplies to homedipo.com slash price match for details. The best part of waking up? A full cup of Folgers coffee and music on full blast. Shop Folgers in your cup. Shop Folgers, instant coffee and more at your nearest retailer. And welcome back into the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson and joining me today over a plate of freshly scrambled eggs. It's my scenes from a divorce co-host.

Mallory Rubin. Joe, why doesn't one just eat scrambled eggs all the time? and why did we never pod in the kitchen before? We should do a pot in the kitchen sometimes. Hello. Here we are already at the end of a season of the Crown. I know. Whirlwind adventure through 10 episodes and the complete dissolution of a royal marriage.

We are here today to talk to you about the Crown episode 7 through 10. Yeah. This is it, the end of the road. If you haven't finished the season, This is not the pod for you. There are other crown pods that we did. You probably want to go back and listen to those. And when you're done with the season,

you can come listen to our discussion here about no woman's land, gunpowder, couple 31 and decommissioned. The four final episodes of season five. We'll also have like a little season six preview, like a quick little zip through. We don't know anything for certain. We know a few things, but we don't know much for certain. And so we're just sort of going to speculate

what could be in the final season of the crown that's coming up should probably be out this time next year. Spoiler warning for history, I suppose. Program reminders. White Lotus is something that we cover in this feed. Interview with Vampire, I would really love for you to listen that episode that I did with Charles, that I really love doing. I heard a rumor that Yellowstone will be covered on the feed soon next week.

I should hope so. That's something Bill said on. on Twitter today, so I believe it to be true. And then Sex Lives of College Girls is also another show that's going to be covered on the feet. So there's a lot coming up, a lot always going on. But this is the last, the final crown breakdown from Mallory and yours truly until next time. Let's, Mel, let's start with your overall, now that we've seen the full season, this final chunk of episodes, where's your temperature on the full season and where's your temperature on these final four? Yeah, I think very much where it was when we opened our season five pod stretch.

I feel like seasons one through four of the crown are among my favorite TV viewing experiences of all time. And season five, I found much more uneven. There were parts of it that I enjoyed quite a bit. And there were parts of it that didn't work quite as well. I thought that a good number of the performances were as this... so often the case in the crown, just like remarkable, astonishing, DeBickey, Staunton, et cetera, just resplendent, wonderful. I'll miss getting to watch them.

I'll certainly look forward to revisiting this season. But yeah, you know, it's, this season is mixed compared to other ones, including my personal favorite season three. Got to get one more season three mentioned in Joe. What about you? How are you feeling? A smuggle. Yeah, I think there's going to be.

stretches and sequences, I will remember more fondly than like full episodes or full arcs. I'm still sticking with, I think episode three is still my favorite now that we've rewatched all of them. I think three, four, and five was a really strong stretch of the season. That was my favorite run. Yeah. But this is a lot of, you know, we mentioned before how much we're enjoying Tobikki is, Diana, that the last chunk that we did was very.

Diana Light, and so it's nice to have a lot more time with her here in this stretch here. I actually wanted to circle back to a moment that you and I loved so much in an earlier episode, which is the reunion between Peter Townsend and Margaret, Princess Margaret. My pal, Julie Miller, who works at Vanity Fair, does all this crown coverage, and she had a piece on the, like, real-life re-I-I-thought-this was, like, a complete show invention, but the real-life reunion between Peter Townsend and Princess Margaret. that I guess happened at Kensington Palace over lunch, not at a fancy ball.

But can I read you just like two excerpts from Princess Margaret books about this reunion? Please. Okay. So it was Townsend and a couple friends and Margaret over lunch. So there were these like extra people at lunch, right? One of these friends recalls in the book Princess Margaret, colon, a life unraveled. One of these friends recalls that it was a strange. and mildly embarrassing meal

as the princess and Townsend talked quietly and intimately together while the other guests conversed among themselves and pretended that the effectively private conversation taking place in their midst was the most natural thing in the world. Yeah.

And then in another biography Princess Margaret Colon, a life of contrast. It covers the farewell. Afterwards as Townsend drove away, she waved goodbye with a pocket pocket handkerchief. Then, walking back into the apartment, the princess

turned to her private secretary and said words to the effect that he was just as she remembered him, except that his hair had turned gray. Couldn't love it more. I know. You know what, Joe, where you can have a more private conversation than at a lunch table

full of other people? Where's that? In bed. Okay. I thought you were going to say a beautiful picture. Throwing that out there. Bictures Garden, but sure. Also that. Also that. Yeah. Enjoy the fresh air. Why not? That works as well. You know, not enough Margaret in these final four episodes, Joe. That's barely any. Part of what I was missing, Margaret, Anne, you know, I think these final four are very emblematic of the season overall where the highs of these remarkable performances, the Diana stretches, as you noted, the media through line, very present here. A lot of the stuff that we've really enjoyed is centered here. But it also is the stretch that, where it's most remain that larger narrative around the season that we discussed at the beginning of the run,

which is much more familiar with what the season is covering, you know, particularly like the BBC interview and the details of the divorce. You know, I was, I was born in 86. Like, I was 10 and 96. I wasn't 25 consuming every piece of news that came out. But even so, just as a child of the 80s or 90s, like you're absorbing so much of this via osmosis and then just have like a little level of awareness. And I think a lot of people watching this season probably are bringing that familiarity to the show as well. And maybe that's part of the appeal.

And maybe that makes it like less surprising or shocking or likely to send you down some of those Google wormholes that we talked about like really enjoying in the early seasons where you see something. You're like, is this true? I need to know. I'm going to go read five articles about it. etc. So yeah, there's a lot to like in this season and a lot that's quite riveting. And then I think like one of the things I'm interested to hear from you about at the end of today's pod when we look

ahead to season six is whether you think that that will be a sensation that is compounded further as we continue to move through time or whether you're looking forward to some of what might come in season six. Like there's a, I'll just spoil. There's like a part of me that never wants the crown to end. Even though season five was a little more uneven than the prior seasons, I'm like, can they just keep making this forever until the present day and then continue it on? Like, why stop? But then also, there's some wisdom to the 20-year rule that Peter Morgan has talked about. I don't mind the 20-year-old, but what I'm hoping is that he just, like, takes a pause and

let some time pass and then, like, do the next five years and then do the next five years, something like that. Because I agree. I would love for it to go on forever. But I do think there's something wise about the 20-year-old. But we'll see when we get to season six and we'll see, like, as it encroaches close, into the current timeline, how we feel. Let's start with episode seven.

And I want to start with this piece about, so we open with Diana talking, we find out she's talking to her acupuncturist because, again, she doesn't have friends. She has employees. And, you know, saying beautiful things about, you know, beautiful and tremendously sad things about her isolation and all that sort of stuff.

But what's really interesting in this back section here, we started with like Diana Fun Mom was like how we opened this season. This backstretch here focuses a lot on the toll that all of this takes on William. We see Diana leaning on him a lot. We know from reporting, like, Tina Brown wrote a very famous book about Diana, wherein, you know, Diana called William her little wise old man. And there's a 2006 book where Diana proudly told friends that William was her soulmate

and closest confidant. Mallory and I have a real. Real issue with those phrasing. So, like, this idea of Diana, through this painful divorce, feeling isolated, is leaning on her very young son who was starting at Eaton. This relationship he starts to forge with his grandmother, which is well known. That's well known. I think what's missing for me in all this, because I think it's important to explore that. But I think I'm missing the fact that Harry isn't in these back for it all so that we can't see, like, can we balance it a little,

bit with the fact that Diana was very famously, like, extremely affectionate and loving towards her kids in a way that they did need in addition to the ways in which she leaned on them, which was perhaps inappropriate for someone to lean on small children. Do you know what I mean? Just like, I would love a mixture of that of that cocktail. What do you think? Yeah. Yeah. I had the same thought about Harry because the William Diana, William Elizabeth dynamic is so central to these final four episodes. really in all directions and the way that those relationships

are impacting each of them individually and then all of them collectively. And, you know, you have a line from Diana in the opening of episode seven, like about William specifically, he's always been my rock. Now that he's gone, I don't know what I'll do. He's at Eaton now.

He is literally a windows view away from his grandmother and she from him. So that part of it makes sense. But then, yeah, you're wondering like, well, why is our little our little ginger hair not in some of these scenes as well.

Yeah, I did have that thought too. Something I discovered that I didn't know, speaking of like Google wormholes, is that this figure that we see throughout this season, the Queen's private secretaries have been very important figures throughout the crown. But that Elizabeth's private secretary that we see throughout the season,

it's never mentioned in the season, is Robert Fellows, who is Diana's brother-in-law? he's married to her sister, her sister who dated Charles before Diana. Like, we know that Diana, as we'll see with her brother, Charles Spencer here, like, is not very close to their family. But it just seemed like wildly inappropriate to me in general that it just seems so messy for her brother-in-law to be the – and he's constantly discussing her with Elizabeth. I just – I like – I gassed when I found out that that was the connection. And it felt like it's such a odd betrayal to me. And I don't know.

I don't know why. Especially not to zip ahead, but like a scene in the finale where he mentions that Diana wants to take the kids on vacation. And it's like your family members? This is wild. What tangled webs these rules of their private secretaries weave. My goodness. Speaking of private secretaries, Diana is about to get, Diana's private secretary is about to get thrown all the way under the bus. because here comes...

That's a stretch for Patrick. Martin Bashir. What did you know about Martin Bashir before this? How did you feel about the way that they introduced him here, Mal? Well, I think that across the first couple episodes here where the Panorama BBC interview is central

to the episodes and the season and the crumbling public perception of the monarchy and the very high-profile nature of these royal scandals, it is an unfluenced. lynching look at the horrific ethical breach and frankly like the breach beyond even journalistic standards into a breach of humanity like the monstrous manipulation and entrapment the way that Martin Bashir preys on Diana's paranoia and even the initial way in there through her brother through Charles knowing that he had fallen victim to a leak the very sinister and the extent of it

which we should say, like these details were revealed in real life incredibly recently, which is an amazing thing to think about. Fabricated bank statements. Falsifying documents and trails to take a little kernel. I know that you have doubts about person X. I know that you think that someone might be listening on your calls. Here's proof in front of your face. false proof, of course, that the thing you fear is happening all around you and the extent of it and the way that he built on it, time after time, conversation after conversation to the point where when Charles Spencer looks at his notes across the meetings and sees, I see MI5 here, I see MI6 here, there are inconsistencies. I'm no longer comfortable with this. Something feels wrong. What does Marbert sure do? He says, you can't trust your own brother anymore. Like, it was just astonishing to watch the extent of,

of this lie. I knew about this. I don't know. I mean, surely some podcast I listened to or whatever covered this last year when the Dyson report came out that revealed the depths to which Martin Bashir sunk in order to get this interview. And again, like, I'm very protective of the media in general and journalism in general. And I feel like journalistic integrity is like a highly valued, highly vaunted thing.

and it makes me uncomfortable when people, you know, say snide, shitty things about the media and the journalists. But, like, Martin Bashir makes us all look back. I mean, I'm not that much of investigative journalist at all anymore, but, like, Martin Bashir makes great journalists look terrible. And so I am, like, extremely frustrated when I see it's not an unfair depiction because he did do, there's extensive reports. He did do all of this, right? And so, but that media through line that, you know, you know, that. you mentioned that I've been sort of obsessed with, like, something that it didn't occur to me, but something that was really underlined to me as I finished this, these, rewatching these chunk

of episodes, and you get that moment, I think it's fine to skip ahead. You get that moment in episode 10 when Daganah goes to dinner with Muhammad Alfayette, and you get a preview of the paparazzi, just hounding them, like, chasing their car. And it's harrowing. And it's like, that media a conversation in general, what tabloid culture of the 90s does to our idea of celebrity, that's interesting. But of course, also, we're building up to one of the biggest known sort of like media-centric crimes, which is like, you know, people maybe rightly, maybe not, we'll talk about that when we get to next season, blame the paparazzi for the death of Diana, right? So the media is directly entangled in her death here. And so the huge role of the,

it plays is not only just reflective of this PR war between the whales is, but also just guiding us towards this point of frenzy that happens. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think like, you know, we've chatted a lot in our, in our pods about the way that the royal family has thought about the evolving role of the press and of media and of how they can use media or how they need to fear media in terms of maintaining their public image. And watching Marim de Sheridan initially make the pitch here because there's this whole element of all of the American networks. And like the boom of satellite TV is a big part of these episodes as well.

Elizabeth doesn't want the satellite dish to be visible, says it would be treason on part with becoming a Catholic. But when you tell her there's a racing channel, everything changes. That was so funny. But what does Martin say, a monarchy plummeting and public esteem and credibility, destroying one of their own? It's a huge story. He's leveraging the newsworthiness of it. But ultimately, he recognizes what we've been talking about, about the royal family, that they know that they need to figure out how to use the press to wage this war against each other.

And he is taking advantage of that change in their circumstance and their almost desperation. to trade these public volleys with each other. And I think something that's really clever. And again, I really love the whole media through line of the season. What's really clever is that how this isn't a reflection of and an escalation of what Andrew Morton did. Because Andrew Morton is much more, there's much more journalistic integrity in what Aaron Morton's doing. But he's still chasing a story.

And he's still going through an intermediary. In that case, her friend who was the doctor. In this case, it's Charles Spencer. But, like, you know, making your pitch, you know, shm. Smozing a guy who's close to Diana to get to Diana and then praying upon Diana's insecurities, Andrew Morton did it a bit more honestly saying Charles's friends are all putting out this story. You don't want them to be that story, do you? You know, like, blah, blah.

And so Martin Bashir doing it just much more insidiously and deceptively, that escalation of this media relationship with Diana. In terms of that cocktail, because Diana's so fascinating because she's so complicated and so full of contradictions that when I say that I would rather have had that blend of like the great mom that Diana was and then the less great thing she did as a mom together, that's exactly what they accomplished with this like Diana at the hospital stuff because Diana goes with her acupuncture. Not her friend, but kind of her friend. Because her husband is having, I think it's what, open heart surgery? Yeah. Bypass. Bypass.

Yeah. So it goes with her to genuinely support her, but it is immediately sort of distracted by this doctor that she has eyes for is not listening to her friends. You know, she's like making about her and she's already started to build her own little, like, new fairy tale around this doctor that she's met. And then we see this montage of her, like, interacting with all these patients without. any media around and she's genuinely doing good and genuinely being charming. But at the same time is, I think, very probably trying to, hoping to catch his eye while she's there. And so all of those things are true at once. And that is the heart of Diana. Can I interest you in a conversation over some reddy salted or some curly-whorly? You know, I love a date at a vending machine.

Joe, I thought of you immediately. I was like, I can't believe Joe and I get to talk about a date a vending machine. We can go Dutch. That's a lost reference for people haven't seen Lost. And if you want to watch all of Lost and then care like the two podcasts

that Mallory and I've ever done about Lost together, you can do that. But Joe has like 400 other episodes waiting for you. Yeah, but like, you know, there's that. Anytime you want to talk about Last, lost, you know where I am. Right.

I know exactly where to find you. You just send me the text. It says LaFloor. And I'm there. My heart just skipped a beat. All right. Speaking of, speaking of dates, Mallory,

talk to me about this movie date that Diana goes on with the doctor con. Okay, so sometimes, even though the crown definitionally is about moving through time, moving through the years,

moving through the decade, decades, the way that this family, the way that these specific figures like Queen Elizabeth, Prince Philip, Margaret, the way that the public perception

of the monarchy and the monarchy's role in society shift over time. There are aspects of the crown that feel eternal and that's like part of the quality of it, the specific approach of it. Very rarely does something happen where you're just like, I know exactly where we are in time, quite like them saying they were going to go see Apollo 13. It's like, yes, I know exactly where we are in time right now.

It's great. Very helpful. The disguise. Let's just talk for a minute, Joe. You're a big fan of Wigs. Wigwatch with Joanna Robinson is a recurring segment across, frankly. Frankly, like every podcast. Every podcast.

One day you're going to get it on the ring or NFL show. I don't be surprised. This was a moment for you. The wig watch and the fit watch for the Diana disguise here. Take us through it. Oh, my God. Okay. It's a good wig.

Again, wigs with bangs are much easier to pull off than wigs without bangs. It's a good wig. It's not so good that Dr. Kahn should have been flummixed by who is this like, tall ethereal beauty. Hello. Definitely the most beautiful person to ever grace the planet who has just come up to me at the exact time that we're supposed to meet at this multiplex. Great stuff. Yeah, 10-10 wig, three out of ten disguise.

I feel like if you and I are at the multiplex, the Odeon or wherever they go to go see Apollo 13. And we see the most beautiful woman ever alive, and especially if she's as tall as a little bit. Elizabeth DeBickey, which Diana isn't, but let's say she is. I will elbow you, Mallory, and I'll be like, guess what? I mean, I know you're focused on Apollo 13, but it's only the bloody princess over there in an obvious wig. Yeah. Okay. So you give the disguise a three out of ten.

What do you give a very detailed breakdown of open heart surgery and how you break the sternum? for for play. How was that working for you as a mood setter? Back at the flat. Honestly, seven out of ten because he finds an excuse to touch her. Yeah, that's a good move. And then she's like, is it broken? Like, come on.

That's good stuff. What a scene. Okay, seven out of ten for that. Mallory Rubin, what do you give the line? I've had a prince. I'm just looking for a frog. How do you feel about that? I think maybe not the incredibly romantic gesture that Diana thought it was in that moment.

There's something sweet about the idea of just looking for the normalcy of a real connection with another person and a real romance. That's nice. But let me remind you that I've already been married to the heir to the throne and you're just a frog. Who I've shared some reddy salted with? I don't know. Maybe she's gone with like, I'm just a girl standing in front of a doctor asking him to love me. You know, just don't say the word frog and we're in a much better place. Anyway.

Great stuff. Dr. Khan, by the way. Yeah. This is a very woe-run romance on the show. They dated for two years. Like, this is a serious thing for her. And I do, like, you know, a lot of. characters in the show, Charles, got a glow-up casting.

And what I like is, yeah, they're emphasizing the fact that if you Google what Dr. Hasnut Khan looked like at this time, like, he's a very nice-looking man, but he's just a very ordinary looking man. And that's just two years in the 90s, you know? And it's like she wanted some, like, nice normalcy. They seem very sweet together. They were very sweet. But to bring it back to the Dr. Khan thing, there's, you know, this interesting connection that the crown decides to draw between her interest in Dr. Khan, who's Pakistani and Martin Bashir, who's also, like, you know, culturally Pakistani and, like, Bashir recognizing that, exploiting it shamelessly.

Yes. It's interesting because, like, Diana did date other people who are not pocket. Like, the crown is almost making it seem like, or at least Bashir has identified it as. like this almost like fetishistic sort of thing or whatever. But at any rate, he is shamelessly using it to get what he wants from her. And again, it's just slimy. Absolutely. Yeah, we have that, you know, such a coincidence line from Diana as they're parting after their first meeting. And then we hear the way that Martin recounts this to his editor and then see the way that in their parking garage car meeting. he capitalizes on this thing that he has identified and looks to, again,

just use any little way in, whether that's a potential connection, whether that's something that he can use to turn her against somebody else or draw a bond with him, whatever the case may be, anything that he can do to secure this, he'll do without hesitation. All right, let's go to episode 8, gunpowder, so-called because of Guy Fox Night or Bonfire Night, if you prefer. Here's where, like, the media, this is when the media stuff just, like, exploded in my brain in a way that I absolutely love because we get this BBC board meeting. And we meet two important figures for this episode. Duke, quote unquote, dukey, hussy.

Yeah. And Director General of the BBC, John Burt. Let me just tell you something right now, Mallory Rubin. I love a rumbled newsman. That is a key, very important fondness demographic that I have. And Director General John Byrne in his, like, 90s trench coats and his enormous cell phone stalking around, deciding where the line, journalistic integrity line is, and how he brings the BBC into the future and the various debates that he and Duke have over. and the snide, snip-y remarks, but also trying to hold on to, like, the soul and the virtue of the BBC while pushing it into being competitive with Channel 4 and ITV. I ate this shit up with a spoon.

I loved it. Yeah. Mal? Me too. Me too. Because we talk about the division and the war inside of the family and the war between cabinet and royalty, etc. but to see the drastically diverging worldviews inside of that boardroom that then carry over across the meals and conversations, which are ultimately directly linked to and reflective of these other divides that we've confronted.

There's the strict, traditional, reverent duke and the progressive and egalitarian modern republic. It's like one of my favorite lives of the season. It was incredible. So good. Yeah, he was great. Like really, really great. I loved him. Yeah, they have this debate about the monarchy.

You know, kiss the ring, if you like. Like, all those are stuff. They have this debate about the monarchy and also media. The BBC as, okay, so like the metaphors have metaphors to, you know, to quote someone. I like the metaphor comments occasionally. but when Elizabeth, like she might as well been looking at the camera what Elizabeth says, even the televisions

are metaphors in this place. I was like, okay, Liz, okay, Peter Morgan. But thinking about the BBC, and then the Queen Mother goes off at length about the birth of the BBC coinciding with the reign of Elizabeth and stuff like that and how they're inextricably linked.

All of that is a little grownworthy because they're so like, oh, is she the TV? Is she the The Royal Yacht, is she the BBC? Like, what is she? All of the above. Yeah, but in that dukey John Burt conversation, that's where the metaphor really sings without having to underline it,

this institution that is the BBC and how do you keep up with the times without losing the core of who you are. Exactly. Which of the metaphors this season? What is your favorite, Joe? Are you Team Britannia, Team Satellite TV, BBC, Fierre. Windsor Castle. Yeah, Windsor Castle.

Burning Windsor Castle. Yeah, that's probably my pick, too. Team fire. Great stuff. Just in case there are some Americans like us watching the Crown. It's probably mostly Americans watching the Crown, don't you think? There's this section of William and Eaton where we get a little lesson about Guy Fawkes Night and the idea of traitors.

Not just traitors. High treason. High treason. Death of the king. Everybody in that class turning to look at poor little William. There were so many moments in this whole stretch of episodes where I just felt so bad for him.

And we'll talk about a few more of them as we go here. I think that Elizabeth in the last episode in episode seven saying it's not right for a child. to worry about a parent was just like very sad all around actually because you're kind of like that's part of what a relationship between a parent and a child is is like mutual concern and care actually

but there was just so much behind that that was like devastating in all directions and then yeah the way that you feel when William pulls up at Eaton too like you know again we were we were young people we talked about this already like during the height of Will's on the cover of every like T-Dopper magazine

and like what a dream but you know he was to all the young people and like the crowds around him. The Beatlemania. Yeah, the shrinking teens when he arrives at Eaton. But also just like the nervousness when he says he thinks he made a mistake. I know that was last episode, but then it like connects here. When he feels like so on stage as everybody's looking at him, it's just, oh. Again, that's a great scene because he's nervous.

Diana does, I think, a very nice job of mothering there. And then Charles calls her out and says she's smothering William. And then she's like, no, I'm not. But then she, like, wraps her arms around him. And I'm like, okay, you don't know. He's at his new school. You don't have to do that. But, like, you know, her assuring him, you know, that it's okay that he made a little mistake.

That's, like, the lovely side of Diana's mothering there. And I think also I felt betrayed, like, in my gut, when William says to Diana that she's just making things worse, right? And I was like, they got to him. I mean, like, I don't think that that's Elizabeth's agenda. Elizabeth's agenda is let me have a relationship with my grandson. And again, this goes back to something that Amelda Staunton said in an interview, this idea that like, okay, her relationship with all of her children are in shambles. Anne is okay, but everyone else, divorce, bad problems all around.

Something that a lot of grandparents do, I think, when they're like, do over? Let me see if I can have an uncomplicated relationship with my grandchild and see how that goes. So I think Elizabeth's looking to like sort of feel like she's doing a good job taking care of a child in maybe a way that she felt like she didn't with her own children. So I don't think she's intentionally trying to poison William against Diana. But what do we see as Diana, as Martin Bashir and the panorama team are smuggled into her apartment on Bumfire Night? we see the whole family, you know, celebrating altogether. Diana was certainly was not invited to that gathering.

I'm pretty sure. You know what I mean? Like, and there's wills. I don't know. Yeah. That was interesting, too, when Martin calls out the relevance of the date in question. And Diana's like, I just picked this because everyone was going to be out. Not for the symbolic significance.

But, you know, even that he tries to leverage. But yeah, the special friend phone call when William says, you have to tell me these things. Like, it's painful to watch. It's hard to watch. And like, I, you know, I have never been heir to the throne in England show.

No, not yet. It's not right. Through all of these very, very public scandals for my parents as they go into their new. romantic adventures. But as a child of divorce, I will say that it's like pretty weird when you realize that your parents are with other people, but also like you want them to be happy. And, you know, there are a lot of moments across these episodes where you can feel both of those truths inside of William. Because like when he passes along the message to Elizabeth in the

first place that Diana asked him to put in a good word and he seems like genuinely like relieved, maybe even more so than happy when Elizabeth tells him that Diana's welcome there any time. And how true that is we'll get to when we talk about the eventual conversation between Elizabeth and Diana, of course. But then there are these moments of embarrassment and pain, certainly most of all, when he's watching the interview as it airs, of which he is a subject, you know, of a certain stretch of it. And like, imagine being that age and having to see all of that play out so publicly. It's just, whew, we're skipping over something. But just to say, as we're watching that panorama interview play out, similar to the Tampon Gate episode, that's what I'm calling it, we're watching everyone consume it, right? And how is it impacting various people?

And the fact that Wills is watching it with that same Eaton history professor, Andrew Galey, who was at Williams, wedding. Like, I looked up, this guy was, like, a very important figure in Williams' life was invited to the royal wedding. So, like, was obviously very influential in his life. But, like, you know, imagine that whole thing. Your teacher is taking you into an office to watch your mom give this interview, she sang all these things.

And then he walks out in, you know, in the middle of it. Oh, boy. Terrible stuff. But let's talk about, okay, so our guy, John, Burr, looking as rumpled as ever because they're in the seaside trying to decide what they're going to do, right? Just stalking around the, you know, the shoreline on the cell phone with the, with the trench coat flapping.

Great stuff. Saying at the Queen's Hotel. Why not? If you're going to do it, just really do it, you know. But yeah, so Diana has insisted that if they're going to do this, she's going to tell Elizabeth herself before all this happens. It's, on the one hand, maybe respect. again, inherent contradiction of Diana.

It's on the one hand, maybe respectful. And on the other hand, tell Circe, I wonder to know it was me. Like there's a little bit of that vibe coming up of Diana here. But yeah, then we get this assertion from Elizabeth to go back to your she's welcome anytime thing, where she's like, you could have talked to me any time. And Diana's like, I tried so many times. And then Elizabeth pivots to you, well, we're all very busy and we don't have time to think about ourselves. And I'm like, Elizabeth, you're sitting around watching racing television.

You have time for tea with William anytime he needs to have tea with you. How many conversations have we had about refurbishing Britannia? Like, time for the corgis. Like, absolutely. That one all the while. It's very important to carve out. Play time with your pets. They need exercise.

They need love. They need the nourishment of that interaction. But yes, but broadly pointing. It's such bullshit. Like, largely, I don't think of Elizabeth as a dishonest person. Usually when she, like, she might be tell uncomfortable truths. I might not always be on her side when she's telling truth, but she's usually telling truth.

And this was a moment where I was like, this is bullshit, babe. Like, that's absolutely not true. So, I'll tell you what I really, what I really liked about that conversation in terms of, like, connecting the strands of multiple characters and multiple seasons. I agree with everything you said. I think, like, we can think of so many moments from season four, certainly the initial stretch where Elizabeth moves in to the palace. Charles is gone and she is so lonely and is reaching out and calling and trying to get through. And then, of course, like, one of those really stunning visuals that we already talked about in earlier pot that sticks with us from the crown is, you know, the attempted hug that embrace and just the way that Diana wraps her arms around Elizabeth at the end of season four.

and Elizabeth is a statue. No warmth reciprocated there at all. And so I think there's a part of her that genuinely believes what she's saying here, but as she works over the course of this season to assess the relationships that she has with her family members and try to recognize the limitations of them,

there's kind of like a limit, right? Like if you're not doing that up close with someone, because she's very proud of the fact that she, like, defends Diana to other people. And I'm sure that she does, but that's about protecting the system, not about showing love to Diana. And the reason I found that really powerful

is because it made me think of the relationship between Elizabeth and Charles and how that is just the great, like one of the great tragedies inside of this story. Like, I think back to... Favorite episode. Charles and Wales. Shattered.

That description of the look on Charles' face when he saw two parents take their kid to bed. How did he look? Shattered. Because it's just never something he had. That's just devastating. I mean, and the finale, Alice's birthday,

when Andrew gives her like the stupid singing bitch, Andrew, like, Margaret gave her gloves. Rubber gloves. Andrew gave her the bass. Andrew giving her, like, the Billy Bass. singing fish.

Andrew, without question, her, like, it's not even close, most terrible child, Andrew. But also her favorite. Yeah. And Charles is like, I've painted you a picture, mummy. And she's like, that's nice. I mean, Elizabeth. Elizabeth. Incredible, genuinely funny scene.

The facial expressions, like the way that Charles's face just crumbled. The interview itself, again, we've talked a couple times about how. Elizabeth Debicki is not doing just an like imitation, like, a imitation. That she's doing like, it feels like a fully embodied character. That being said, there are clips going around right now comparing her performance in this interview

with, like, Diana's actual facial expressions and intonation, and it's like pitch perfect. Yeah. You know, she just matched every scrunch of the face, every eye roll, every, you know, murmur, all of it. she just, you know, that is a perfect invitation of very famous footage that she did. And at the same time, it doesn't feel disembodied from these private moments that we get from her. It all just feels, again, to Bickey is just like absolutely incredible.

Clear some space on your shelf for your Emmy. You deserve it. You tall wonder. You know, they included a lot of the very famous clips, something that is excluded. I feel like I need to, like, I think. Juliet and Amanda would be mad at me if I didn't mention this. A very important thing that they excluded was an affair that she had with James Hewitt, who many people believe to be Harry's father.

If you Google images of James Hewitt and Prince Harry, they're like, what's going on here? That being said, just to be fair, journalistically fair, as if this is journalism, There's photos of young Prince Philip That also looks a lot like Harry So like, you know, the people who are James Hewitt Harry Father Truthers are like, look, where do you get the red hair? This guy, blah, blah, and the people who are like, no, Charles is definitely a dad We'll show you photos of young Prince Philip

But they excluded that little bombshell because, I don't know, they just didn't have time for that story. But he's in season four. Right. So we have. But I guess that actually makes it actually makes. it weirder than that it's not mentioned here, right? Yeah. What did you think of the decision to cut in between, you know, Liz's like, well,

I have you don't mind me. We wouldn't be watching it, right? And she and Philip are at this anniversary concert where someone's doing a performance of one and only from Dream Girls and it's cut back and forth. What did you think of that? Bizarre, right? Yeah. I thought it was bizarre.

Yeah. Yes. I found this quite strange. You just don't need it. Yeah, that's the thing. It's like we, there are plenty of stretches of crown episodes where some sort of interesting juxtaposition really heightens. Yeah.

Some sort of thematic or, or thematic takeaway or some sort of poignancy. But yeah, I agree. It was a little bit distracting here. And like, we had the moment where Elizabeth said, by the way, you scheduled this for our wedding anniversary, our 48th wedding anniversary. We will not be watching. and the really like agonizing reply where Diana said that that's what she would have wished for herself. Like I think that was that was that was that was what we needed there.

Yeah. I would have even if you filmed it, if I'd been there in that edit, I'd have been like, you know what? I know we filmed it, but we don't, this is distracting and we don't need it. Again, I like found myself wondering, is it just because that that interview in particular is so famous. Like just showing it to us in full. It's like we got to do something stylistically distinct here to make sure that this is the crowns version of this. That's all I can think of for why. Maybe.

And the lyrics one night only. One night only. The interview was a big event. So just felt like a bit on the nose. Maybe I would have picked another performance from that night, I suppose, or something like that. But yeah, and there are definitely, as you said, the crown has done this before to great effect. And this is just a moment where I was like, you put a hat on a hat. And like you really could have just let the panorama interview as familiar as we.

are with it. You know, to pick you did such a good job with it, you could have just let that roll. And us watch Charles have a complete nervous breakdown as she says, please not fit to be king, essentially. Oh, God. What the hell is she doing? Did you have a favorite reaction? I mean, we saw a lot.

We got the Charles Camilla reactions. We saw William. It's Charles. Dom like might as well have been like, Dominic West might as well have been like biting his finger. like in agony. It was so, it was very over top, but very good.

And Dominic is incredible in episode nine, so I'm not like knocking the overall performance. I can't wait to talk about the X-D. You know what I liked? I liked the cut to Margaret after the,

what better way to break down a personality than by isolating it line. Because like, it's one more tie there between them and the, that feeling of being outside. Yeah. Sad.

You know, she had that earlier conversation where Elizabeth brings her in to be like, what can you tell me about? Diana. And she's like, oh, we're so alike. We're so flashy and wonderful, blah, blah, blah, but I don't know. I don't know. I have no idea what she's up to. Yeah. I have no idea. We live in the same building. We're the same person, but I don't talk to her.

All right. Let's talk about episode nine, couple 31. This is such a fascinating episode because it has some of my favorites of the whole season, which is the egg conversation, which we're going to talk about. But it also has this, once again, they went for, they swung for the fences with this sort of high concept, reverse when Harry Met Sally, where we see like a bunch of ordinary couples talking about their divorces to sort of underline couple 31 is like their name on the court document to underline the fact that this is just like two people getting a divorce, just like hundreds of thousands of people do in the UK all the time. I don't know. It didn't, it was not additive to me in this episode, that idea. How did it work for you?

What did you think? I liked, I guess, the idea of it maybe more than the ultimate execution. I think, frankly, in part just because it's the penultimate episode and then you get to the finale. And even though like in the days leading up to the crown, there are a lot of articles. And actually really before that, when Queen Elizabeth died and they halted filming for season six, there was like a lot of clarity of what season six filming was entailing. So it wasn't a secret that Diana's death was not in this season, that that was going to be in season six. And yet, I kind of thought it might be.

Yeah, same. And I was like, I guess I live under a rock. TikTok. Yes. Like, literally like paused the finale at one point. It was like, wait a minute. I guess this isn't happening here. Yeah.

And then you look back, I think, at the structure of episode nine. And like, it's like, okay, let's, I don't know. I don't know. I guess we won't ultimately be able to judge the overall pacing until we see season six, which we'll talk about. But it is interesting. like maybe some of the things that we're talking about in this breakdown of overall breakdown of season five, what Peter Morgan has said in a number of interviews is this idea that they were, the five was supposed to be the final season. And then they decided they had too much story for one season, so they decided to stretch it out over two seasons.

So maybe in stretching it out, but they're not going past, you know, like 2001, 2002, something like that. So maybe in stretching it out, in stretching it out over two seasons, maybe some of this padding is what's, not working for us, you know? Yeah. And I do like again, like just that parallel because, especially from Charles and Elizabeth's perspective in the younger generation and also Anne and other characters who have said numerous times to Elizabeth, like divorce is part of life. Yeah. Getting married again as part of life. Like it was, I understand the instinct to show us that, to show us how true that. is and how much just a part of the reality of a modern existence divorce is. Again, child of divorce

speaking right here. There's a part of me that thinks if you're going to do it actually like take it fully through to the end. I mean, we obviously hear the, we get to see the divorce court like assessment of their papers and the, we don't, you know, let's put Charles and Diana and two grade school chairs and put them in that room for a chat. Four to five feet apart. No, I'm glad we got the scribbled eggs. instead, obviously. Like, that's how when Harry and Sally ends. It's like we get all these couples and then we get Harry and Sally.

Like, that's not that they were overtly trying to do that. That's just my parallel that I'm drawing here. Okay. Press stuff. Diana, paparazzi, like, completely over the top at this point now. She's hounded everywhere she goes. But Camilla as well is trapped in her home because of paparazzi, right? So it's like, you know, their parallel existences.

But the Diana stuff is like we are really paying attention to how much she can't go anywhere without being absolutely hounded. And more than just the paparazzi, right? Like there was the earlier sequence with the brakes failing in the car and like the guys who are just pull up next to her. They realize who she is. They're gawking. They're taking pictures. Oh, my God. And like she tries to evade them quickly.

The brakes aren't working in her car when she's speaking later. Like I think they're messing with my brakes. Or maybe I just need a service call. like the extent of the doubt and the paranoia, all of those conversations with Patrick about sweeping the place for bugs, the phone line being tapped. Like, it's building, it's building, it's building.

Nothing feels normal. Everything feels like a threat around her constantly. I should say on the, on the Patrick front, apparently like the BBC settled with him to like say, hey, sorry that are a terrible journalist costs you your job.

Right? So the BBC paid Patrick out. They also donated, the money that they made off the interview, they donated to charity to try to make good. There's like a number of other people who Bashir, because it was far more extensive. There was this whole, like, it was even worse than what they showed

because, like, he manufactured a false, like, abortion record for the William and Harry's nanny, claiming that Charles got the nanny pregnant and she had an abortion. That was part of Bashir's tactic. So, like, the BBC had to settle with a bunch of people because of all the shit that Martin Bicheneer did. Like, so horrific and sinister. It's strange.

Oh, my God. Yeah. But on the media beat, on the press beat, there is this fallout from the panoranimate interview where Diana is, like, not maybe the People's Princess in this moment, that the public sentiment has turned on her somewhat. But and then Charles makes a move. This is a real thing that he did in 96 is that he hires Mark Boland, this figure who was like with him for a very, very, very long time. And also then I think started doing some work for William as well. Like the spin doctor to the royals and to Mark Boland.

How does this figure work for you in this episode and the storyline here? Boy, if Elizabeth thinks she's busy, I mean the Royal Spin Doctor, talk about it. an acting professional pursuit. My goodness. No time for corgis. Never adult moment for Mark Boland. I liked these scenes. I thought this was really interesting.

Like there's, and again, this is, we talked about in prior episodes, like the dissonance as a viewer that you're experiencing with the Camilla of it all, where it's like, this relationship between Charles and Camilla caused an england. incredible amount of hurt and harm. That is true. It is also true that these people loved each

other, wanted to be together, and that Camilla was always the person in the press who was not Diana. And there's this great moment in the Camilla Mark meeting where she alludes to this really cruel description of one of the myriad articles about her, about her leathery skin and her unplugged eyebrows. And it's like, that became her life. And, you know, to be clear, in addition to the Harvard flicked it on that, like, she's, she was married. Andrew seems pretty, pretty bummed about all of this. It's like a lot of hardship all around. But right. Imagine being on the other end of that when everybody adores Diana. And so one of the, one of the bits of counsel that is immediately present from the Mark Bowlin figure is you have to pounce right now. You have to pounce right now.

when not every single bit of public affection is directed toward Diana. This is the chance. He advises them for Charles, who he quickly meets, to move forward with the divorce as quickly as possible. Generous settlement. Let's get this done. And then Camilla has a couple choices. And Joe, she can't say the cue word.

But that's one of them. Why is that? Why can't she say the cue word? Oh my God. What an incredible seed. She doesn't want it. Full John Snow, Joe. Full John Snow.

But the part that I loved most about it was like 10 seconds after the full John Snow instead of getting a line about the Night King and her saying, I looked into his eyes. She then immediately is like, but I could help. I could make sure every time you have.

Every time he has a speech, when Boland gives him his Charles a speech later, Camilla just like walk of the Hong Kong speech. She just walks over to the desk. Like, she's like, I make him happy. And he's like, on a phone call, he's like, you make me laugh. Like, yeah, I'm glad that Charles and Camilla have each other. Like, honestly, I, like, everyone deserves that. Diana deserved that. You know what I mean?

And so that's the whole thing. And I do like, I like Olivia Williams' depiction of Camilla here that her sort of like, she's funny and her like her good humored but sort of gloomy like Diana would never get a boot on her car like sort of thing. This would never happen to the people's princess. I think that's really interesting. I got a real kick out of the, in this episode, the moment where Charles says that the two pillars of a successful relationship. Does your partner make you laugh? And do they make you?

And then she cuts them off. You never know who's listening. You think Josh O'Connor would have wanted to do the second half of that line? Not if his parents are watching, no. And they make you want to live inside of their trousers and talk about how you could be a tampax swirling around forever in the ball. Okay, sorry. What a show.

Before we get to the egg scene, which we both left. We need to briefly talk about the fact that I guess in a lot, order to give Johnny Lee Miller more to do in this episode. They decided to sort of invent as far as I can tell. John Major had nothing to do with the negotiating the terms of the divorce of Charles and Diana. But the queen pulls him into this to try to help move things along in the negotiation. We also get a rather bleak scene from the major marriage in the... Yes. I have to say the... I mean, I guess that's meant to be the Downing Street.

kitchen because we saw it in Margaret Thatcher's scenes as well. That's a pokey-looking little kitchen for I would expect something much grander from Downing Street. I'm quite surprised, honestly. So maybe Boris Johnson should have redecorated Downing Street. Maybe I've decided I'm a Boris Johnson supporter. I'm not. Okay. What a twist.

Joanna comes out in favor of Boris Johnson. All right, let's talk about eggs. Okay. What a scene. This was... Honestly, this could have been the whole episode. That's the thing.

Like, I wish it had been because every second of this was perfection. And, you know, I've lost count of the number of times I've said, I'm not an heir to the throat or we can't relate

to being royals, but like anyone watching can relate to a moment like this. Whether or not you've been divorced, the way that you can go inside of the span of one conversation from living inside of what was for them and remains for them, like a real abiding affection into the viciousness that only you two can unleash on each other

was just like, that's the real shit right there. And even before the eggs, like the, I just loved the way they moved through the home, the way that Diana. looks through the glass at his silhouette, the trepidation, the way that he doesn't remember where the kitchen is and she knew he wouldn't. And they talk about whether he was happy there and for how long. And like, it's just so sad and so anguish-inducing all of it because like you see those little kernels. And you know what was so great before the, before the kitchen? The blushing moment where he noted that he talked about how the revenge dresses come up.

Yeah. He says that he thinks that she looks even better like this, natural. She blushes. He remarks on the fact that she's blushing. And she says it's only, only him. Like only when he says something nice to her. And what does she say about it? How does she describe it? Infuriatingly. And I just loved that too. I loved that. The little detail of her like checking her eye makeup. You know what I mean? It's just sort of like, you know, she's not starting to start anything. She just like want to make sure she looks nice. And that's just like, she looks nice. this moment, you know, and that he comes there because of something Elizabeth says, which is like, you know, this must be hard for Diana too. So he comes there. Again, this is probably a fabricated interaction, but this is exactly when the crown should be fabricating things. Like give us this imagine meeting, imagine conversation between the two of them, give us the whole spectrum, the flirtation, the domestic coziness, the generosity, the regret, the point. And the whole spectrum. The flirtation, the domestic coziness, the generosity, the regret, the poignancy, the poison and the viciousness, like all, like go through all of it. And this is exactly what I'm talking about and what we're

both talking about when we say, Dominic West is incredible in this role and in this season, even if he's not buried Charles in general, whoever he's playing here is phenomenal. And so his whole, the whole misalignment, misalignment, mis-examination. understanding of like, you don't think I'm suited for the thing I was born to do. And she's like, I just think you wouldn't want to, like, it's, it's terrible to be the king. It's terrible to be there. And this would not make you happy. Yeah.

And I believe she's right, you know. Yeah. Yeah. But then again, even that, like the way that that's so quickly weaponized in both directions, because they both make it about William. Like they, uh, that was also real like true to life shit. I think where like immediately the kids are caught up in it. But like before, before things really degraded when there was that moment of reflection.

And she calls it an autopsy. And he's like, don't call it that. Just like, why? That's what it is. Right. And this was also a scene that I thought very effectively called back to their history together and our history with them as viewers and characters on the crown. like a moment like all I needed was the confidence for being loved by you. One of the best stretches in the crown is their conversation about exactly that in on the

Australia tour where they kind of realize that like they're both craving the same thing and actually just like put it all out there and say if you're feeling, if either of us is ever feeling this way about ourselves, let's just give the other person the thing that we feel we need. And like how really truly hard that is as a person in any kind of relationship to like maintain that level of graciousness when you're feeling betrayed or hurt or insecure. And like the apologies in both directions and like I love the when he says we were so young and she says you were like never young even when you were young and he's really wounded by that but she didn't mean to hurt him. It was like another I know you better than you know yourself.

and better than other people know you? Isn't it awful that you were never allowed to be a child is sort of what she means by that, right? Yeah. Yeah. And the other part that's directly lifted from that Australia tour episode, which is a great episode. I'm glad that we keep talking about. But like when she's saying, you know, she's like, I needed attention and I'm sorry that that felt like an attack to you. Because that's how that episode ends. Things are going well.

And then she gets all this attention and he gets petting. And again, Josh O'Connor plays that perfectly. It's harder to understand and Dominic West con. Like, nobody's ignoring Dominic West when he's in a room, but like, that's fine. Okay. So the moment when he asks if just this wants, they can use Camilla's name and just the presence of this other person in that conversation, it made me think so strongly of the Circey Roberts scene where they finally talk about, like, Liana. Like, I just could not stop thinking about that scene watching this. It's a great scene, too. It's an incredible scene. Boy.

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Erasing thoughts and restless nights won't stand a chance. Find Ollie sleep solutions for the whole family at ollie.com. That's OLLLY.com. All right, episode 10, decommissioned. We are back in the, really in the thick of the Royal Yacht metaphor.

But we start with my favorite fails on Doty plan. Who has gone again... Before we can sail, we must fly. Once again, really glad that we got to spend time with him in like the 70s and 80s because like 90s donies, like with the cocaine and the terribly gaudy shirts. And, you know, the... Actually, she seems very nice. And I actually quite like her.

Running lines? Running lines while fucking on a plane? Yeah. What a creative partnership. So Kelly Fisher is this woman who was like engaged. I was like, this is when I was checking the clock. I was like, when are we? Doty was engaged to this woman, Kelly Fisher,

at the same time that he had his relationship with Diana. And like I had mistakenly bought into this whole like Diana Doty. I thought it was a longer relationship. And I thought it was like a real love match. And apparently like we're going to get to this, I guess maybe in season six, but like Muhammad Alfayyad put like a whole like shrine up to the love of Doty and Diana in herods. And I like bought that narrative hookline and sinker as a kid, I guess,

because like I had a hard misconception of Doty and Diana. Instead, we were spending this in this throughout this whole, it's not even, he doesn't even meet Diana again in this episode. This whole episode is. is about how Doty wants to buy a tacky Malibu mansion for Kelly and get married her. Great pool, though. The pool looks great. And it seemed like, I'll just say, that it seemed because they had blueprints on the flight

and mentioned the architect seemed like they were going to maybe flip that place and update the design a bit. So you're really just buying the land. The bones. The bones of it, right? It's got good bones. Yeah, a plot in Malibu. I mean.

It's getting rid of some of the columns and just sort of updated it. Who would ask Dad for help? Yeah. Love the family dinner scene. Honestly, iconic stuff. What do you want to say? Just a genuinely amazing scene of television. Isn't it enough just to fuck her?

Tough one from Mumu. I love that Kelly is like, I mean, listen, Moom is a piece of shit. I just find him like highly watchable. But, like, Kelly's like, isn't this extremely rude that they're just talking? You don't speak Arabic? And she's, you know, I think it's heinie. I think that's how you pronounce her name. Is that correct?

She's like, you don't have to speak Arabic to know what they're saying. And it's kind of true. It is. They're talking about you and how you're not good enough, I guess, for Doty. It's not great. Don't you like a man with clean hands? She asks. Listen.

As somebody who partakes of my travel size Purell every 35 seconds when I'm out and about, who am I to judge. I have seen you do this. All right. We also get this great TV debate scene where they're debating whether or not the British people even want the monarchy. and Diana just abuses that phone in vote. Boy. Great sequence. You remember the redial button on a cordless phone from this era?

I sure do. Yeah. I hope to Biggie had a great time just wandering around that little living room. John Major, tough look for John Major, absolutely crushed in the general election. And it's Tony Blair time. Let me ask you a quick question about Tony Blair. Okay. I don't mean to be rude to Bertie Carville, who has many British TV credits to his name.

But are you surprised that Tony Blair, who has a huge part to play in what's to come with Diana and everything that comes after, are you surprised that there isn't like a more high-profile casting for this figure? I will echo your setup there and say with much respect. I was floored. Yeah. I mean, there are a ton of incredibly famous people in the crown, all of whom, definitely because of the structure of the crown, are only in the crown for one or two seasons. So it's not like it would be strange to say, hey, you're only going to be in the finale of season five, but you'll be in season six.

That's just how the crown works. I was, yeah, very, very, very surprised. But I will say, he was great. He had, like, a lovely energy. He was good. And, like, he's in, I feel like he's in too much the finale for them to recast him for the final season. Though they've recast William,

by the way. There's a different young man playing young teen William in the next season. And they recast John Major, but again, John Major was barely in it before Johnny and Lee Miller took over the role

and there's been a time jump anyway, so it all makes sense, whereas this is like, presumably we're going to pick up right where we left off when we get to season six. So I guess again, Bertie Carville does a great job. It's not a knock on the performance. It's just like I've been more familiar with every single other actor playing a prime minister before we got to Brady here.

Very interesting. I felt very sad for John as he passed off the baton to Tony. This is horror-wrenching. I was like, why am I having this emotional response? I was like, there were so many beats of this that really were affecting when he's in his farewell audience with Elizabeth. and he says, it is strange, the human capacity for self-deception. I'm like, PM coming through here with one of the mission statements for the show and frankly, life.

Wow. And then when he, when he didn't go, when he saw that Tony Blair's car was arriving and he waited, like the decency and the graciousness of a gesture like that. And then the note he left him. Yeah. Very nice. Yeah. Surprising farewell.

And I guess maybe correct me from wrong because you did the rewatch and I didn't do the full rewatch. But have we seen a passing of the baton between prime ministers in this way? So the thing that I that came to mind as like, I guess the clearest comp is, is Eden arriving right behind Churchill. And they have, they have a moment. But like, it is different because there were so many scenes involving those characters. And like, the desire. of the party for Churchill to just go and give it in his moment was like a really central storyline in the first season of the crown. So yeah, this was, this was really interesting.

I mean, obviously when we said goodbye to our guy, Kaiburn McMillan, he was just getting eviscerated by Elizabeth as he was wheeled out to greet her on a stretcher. So, you know, we've had a few different exits. Obviously, Thatcher got the order of merit. Yeah. It's, I do always enjoy, like, the moments where Elizabeth tells a prime minister that they're one of her favorites. Yeah. We've seen the goodbyes. Like, the Elizabeth goodbyes. But in terms of, yeah, that, that, um, Eden Churchill one is a good example.

But, like, oftentimes it's, like, between seasons or something like that where we see the, the handoff in that way. And I just want to say, as far as Tony Blair goes, I know I've mentioned the queen a couple times, the Helen Mirren, Peter Morgan, Hellenierin film. Yes. But Michael Sheen plays Tony Blair in that movie, and he is so good. He's phenomenal. And, like, that's why I was – because Tony Blair, again, is so integral in that – and Sherry Blair as well, like, are so integral in that whole storyline. I was like, they're going to have to cast, like, an A-lister. And they're like, we've gone with this very, very talented character actor.

I'm like, okay, sure. All right. We get Diana, it's one lake course Of course Diana goes This one lake And she has a

Again, Mumu, piece of shit But also are we not charmed When he's like from across the ballet Doing like, let's go Have a quick bite scene And she's like I got asleep man

Something I found out digging through Some of the Fayette reporting is that in the real life, Muhammad Alfay had bought the yacht for $20 million the day after Diana said she would go. So it's like he invites her on the trip. She's like, I'll go and then he buys the yacht.

So he has a place to land. Yeah, he's like, oh, I told her we'd have a yacht. Yeah. He told her they'd have a new yacht. So I really had to follow through, I guess, after that. And I love this pitch that he's giving her because it's the exact opposite of. this trip we saw her go on in the premiere, right?

Where he's like, the boys will have water sports, burgers, movies, all this sort of stuff. And for you, shopping and sunshine. And I'm like, that's what, yes, that is what Diana wants. And meanwhile, not to skip too far ahead, but like, Charles gets the trip he wants with Camilla on, you know, the Britannia. And the queen is appalled. Yeah, she's pretty upset. The seafaring symbolic rendering of your mother's essence. is where you conduct.

We skipped her on this part, but they were like, no, it's unseemly for the monarch to go to a handing off of a commonwealth. So Charles, you do it. You go, Charles. That was like an incredible. Philip has basically no lines in these final four episodes, but of course is the character who would make that point moment.

Yeah. It's unseemly. And then what is the Queen Mother calls it? Like the great Chinese take. away and Margaret's like mom. Jesus Christ. Terrible. Charles is doing exactly what he did in the first episode, arranging a meeting with

PM to talk about our future together. His tune is almost the exact same as it was in the like six or seven years ago, whenever that first meeting happened. Yeah. And Tony Blair seems as equally taken aback as John Major was by this. overture from Charles. But more impressed with him as a, as a dude, basically, like, as a peer. We're brothers, basically, yeah.

Yeah. And, like, that was the distinction, ultimately, in the pitch, even though broadly, the play was the same. Yeah. The way that he went to Tony Blair and said, like, you know, all of these other prime ministers could have been X, Y, Z. you're the first one who could have been her son, which would make us like brothers. And I liked that Blair described the word that he used was gobsmacking when he was talking about

this after. But he also said that he was a, quote, impressive man. He said he's got energy and a brain and conscience and a beating heart and a genuine desire to engage and make a difference. And like, when Charles was pitching John Major, he's basically like, I need to ask you or, you into doing something that basically you know is wrong. And his pitch to Tony Blair is like, let's do for the royal family what you just did for the labor party.

Let's modernize. Let's move into the future together. And so like, you're right. It's very different. This sounds like the Mark Boland touch. The spin doctor has a... Absolutely. I mean, he's the one who, I mean, Charles asked for it, but he facilitated the meeting.

I think the other thing that's different, of course. And this comes up from... Elizabeth later in the finale is public perception for Charles has changed. Now, that's one of the really, like, devastating things that when it's devastating when Charles brings up William to Diana in the egg scene, and then it's devastating when Diana says, people's affection for me has been transferred to William who everyone would rather see as king than you. And when fucking Andrew and Edward are like making fun of him at lunch about it. Oh my God.

The way that everyone ganged up on him in that meeting. And then like when Elizabeth says, it went like okay for the monarchy, didn't go so great for you. And it's this complete inversion of him in the Queen Victoria Syndrome. In the Victoria Syndrome article in that poll as like the clear preferred choice inside of that institution. So we've we've traveled over a great many years and a great many scandals here. Do you want to say? Because I don't want to miss this. On the Tony Blair-Charles front, the fact that Charles is a fly business class and Blair is in first class.

And Camilla says, you're going to have to be very brave. But I promise you, you will survive. So funny. Great, great, great, great delivery from Louis Williams. And then the whole season ends on a, to me, very odd note. Elizabeth takes, not odd, but just sort of like, okay, Elizabeth takes a tour of Britannian, like, looks at stamps of herself, and the metaphor comes full circle. And then Diana packs, and we know where she's going, so we're worried, very upset. But then we go, oh, I guess, see you next time, to be continued on the ground is sort of how this, it's like a soft cliffhanger sort of thing.

Yeah, it was a very abrupt. conclusion to the finale of the season. Yeah. I did. Again, I checked the runtime. I was like, what are we doing in this episode? We're done. Okay.

All right. Yeah. I wonder if almost, I mean, I guess given the prominence of the Britannia as central metaphor this season, there was perhaps no more fitting a place to conclude it. But, you know, and I think the, we've had many seasons end on a, this part was interesting to me. We've had many seasons of the crown end on a group shot, literally sometimes a family photo where everybody has to come together for some reason and they're just comfort with

themselves and each other is is very central and on display. So everybody kind of being alone. You've got all of these fractures, all of these divides, people setting out on their own journeys. Charles and Elizabeth have had this very frank exchange of ideas where she's like, listen, asshole, you don't get that private meetings. Nobody likes you. But the prime minister, only I get to do that. And he's like, maybe the bashed, maybe not. But then like, everyone's wounding in all directions. He brings up the affair or she brings up the affair. And he's like, I'm an unmarried man. What are you talking about? And they discuss this has always been hanging over their relationship with each other and other characters over the years have talked about it. Like,

yeah, it's probably going to be a little bit hard to be really close to your son if he's the living embodiment of the reminder of your death. You know, what does it mean to be heir to the throne? It means replacing you when you die. And they literally talk about that here, right? Because she says, you should know the answer. Luceris Valorian. Exactly. No, yes. It made me think of House of the Dragon, too. Like, you should know the answer to that question better than anyone because God willing, you will one day take the oath yourself. This job is for life. Well, let's just hope there's an institution for me to take the oath for. I don't think it's my behavior. that's threatening its survival.

And he goes on to say he's worried, calls her mummy here. I know you love when Dominic West says, Mommy in the crown. Mommy. The world will move on and those who come after you, nothing will be left with nothing. And then they all are just on their own, isolated. See you next time on the crown. Speaking of, let's just do like a quick rundown of some. seasons. Tell me, Joe. What are we going to see? What's stick stuff for you? Okay. Well,

let's start with your question to me when you finish the season for the first time, which was what, Mallory? Is Diana going to die in the first episode? Is that how season six starts? I can't imagine that happening. I don't know why. That's just, it's just like difficult for me to wrap my mind around. So then I start to think the first episode is Diana and Doty and we see that relationship and the boys and this holiday and all of that. And then episode two? Episode two. And then.

It's going to be a real shame to lose DeBickey out of the cast, I have to say. But like that's almost when it has to happen. It can't be much longer because we are in July of 97 and she dies. August. Like, we are so close, timeline-wise, to her death. The aftermath, Dominic West has already talked about filming the scenes where Charles has to talk to the boys about what has happened. So that, you know, that is something, of course, that, you know, the funeral, Elton John, all this sort of stuff. The Queen's speech, again, this is the entire plot of the Helen Mirren film, The Queen, so I don't know how much Peter

Morgan wants to rehash something that he has already done exquisitely well. But it would be odd to not do this very key moment where Elizabeth, as we've seen again and again, you know, again, the crown feels like it's just been building and building and building to this, right? All these moments with like Margaret and Elizabeth or, you know, like all these prequels to the main event, which is Charles and Diana, all the moments where Elizabeth grappled with how human to be in public. That's the main concern after Diana's death is Elizabeth is like, let's just go

with no comment. It's none of their business, how we're doing. And Tony Blair has to say, no, the people really need to hear from you in this moment. It is vital for the relevancy of the democracy, of the

monarchy, and the health of our entire infrastructure that you make a speech. So I don't know how they don't do that, but again, it will be very weird because Peter Morgan has literally already done this very perfectly. Great point. You know, 9-11, Tony Blair, the war in Iraq. Are we doing that? Like, because we're going, we know we're going up through 2001 because we know that they've cast a young actress to play Kate Middleton.

I mean, even if she's just in one scene in the finale or something like that, they met each other at St. Andrews in 2001. So we know they're going up through. there. Does the crown have room to do fucking 9-11 in its final moments? I mean, I don't, I don't know. I would honestly be surprised if they, if they didn't. I think that war, international relations, global politics have always been really central to the show. I mean, this season, least of all, like, by, by a mile compared to prior seasons. This one was so much more centrally focused on the celebrity and the media and the public nature of these scandals as and like honestly even the war the war the wails is like john jr major is a main figure in this season but it exclusively in terms of his role in the family

dynamic here other than like the russian you know john major went to russia and got soviet union and got chip-faced of vodka. Right. Other than that, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're right. There aren't the typical equivalence in this season of the, of those stretches with the, with cabinet and the PM from prior season. So, yeah.

There was a fascinating article I read on VanityFer.com. It's from the 2008 May issue called Two Ladies, Two Yachts and a Billionaire. It's by Dominic Dun. Dominic Dunn is, like, very famous. covered the OJ Simpson trial, blah, blah, a very colorful courtroom reporter. Not, that's a columnist, fame journalist, Dominic Dunn. That was the inquest. And I don't know why it would be 2008, but apparently it was.

I didn't dig into why it was that late. But 2008 feels well past the prompt. Breaks the 20-year rule, so I don't know that they would do it. But if you just are interested in a highly colorful, depiction of Kelly Fisher, the aforementioned fiancé of Dode Fayed,

Muhammad al-Fayyad, and him taking the stand at the inquest. All of that really brilliantly laid out in that article. It would make for an incredible season

of television, though it is a little more like American crime story, people versus OJ, than it is the crown, but like it is such theater. It is out there.

Outside the time frame, but like at such theater and I was like, how could Peter Morgan resist to doing this? They shift things around in time, right? So they can move it up. Yeah, so I guess that would be like by more than half a decade. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Andrew. Yeah. What do you think, Mallory? What are they going to do about Andrew? I have to do something, right? You can't just conclude the crown and not deal with this. A question I have about Andrew, so Andrew, his infamous association with Epstein, starts in 99, according to Andrew, but then there's like some evidence that it started even further. But if it's 99, that's in the time frame that they're going to do. Right.

And there is, I guess, this very, I just saw passing reference to this and then I had to Google Pizza Express incident. But apparently there's like a very key 2001. birthday party at a Pisa Express that he claims he was there for and his own daughter, Princess Beatrice, is like, my dad was not there. So that's all in the time frame. But my question is, how much can they legally do with Andrew? I don't know. And how much does Peter Morgan not want to touch this?

I don't know. But how can they not? Right? Especially since Andrew has been a figure. It's not like they just decided like, well, it's just not do Andrew at all. Like, he's been around. He's given fucking singing fish to Elizabeth in the finale. Like, they have to do it.

So, all right. And then, as I mentioned, we know that actors have been cast to play a 15-year-old William, also a 21-year-old William, and then also a Kate Middleton, and they are casting for a teenage Harry. So, again, bringing us up through, like, 2001 thereabouts. That being said, the Golden Jubilee gets mentioned in the Gunpowder episode. John Burt, who's like, why don't we celebrate the Queen when the Golden Jubilee happens in 2002, her 50th anniversary of her reign? In that same year, again, spoilers for history, if you don't want to hear this, but, like, in 2002, Princess Margaret died and the Queen Mother died. So another like Anna's Horribulus for Elizabeth.

So I just feel like if it were me, I would end in 2002 with the death of Margaret, the death of Queen Mother. But Elizabeth endures so much lonelier for sure than she was before because these two women have been like, you know, some of her. We did meet some of her friends in that gunpowder episode. But Elizabeth endures. 50th anniversary, golden jubilee, 2002. That's where I would end it. I have no evidence that they're going to do that, but that's what I would do. What do you think?

That's really smart. I almost think, like, hearing you say that, it either has to be that or Peter Morgan has to say, I recant the 20-year rule we're going through her death. Like, those are the two most natural spots to end. Right. Right? Because they had another Jubilee in 2022. Because that's so fucking long, Elizabeth keeps on, keeping on.

But yeah, 2002, that's where I would end it. Again, that falls inside the 20-year rule. I like it. It feels like a very potent, symbolic concluding point given the prevalence of this idea of the crown and Elizabeth is the embodiment of the crown as this idea and symbol and presence that endures beyond all of these other, all of these other things and relationships.

Sad. Sad show. On that super chipper note, let's do our FLR awards before we go. We've been doing this every episode. Let's start with the Fit Watch. All right, Rubin, what do you got for me here? In part because it became a conversation point. in the scene, I loved what Diana was wearing in the scrambled egg scene. I just loved it.

It was gorgeous. Yeah. But it was also like, I'm at home. I'm just, it's just the afternoon. I'm just here and we'll see what's in the fridge. And sure, it was probably designer, but it looked very like gap, sleeveless, mock turtleneck, like basic staple from the 90s. Yeah. I also have a surprise, surprise. I also have a Diana look. And it is this, like red puffy jacket that she wears at one point that I was like, oh, I recognize. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And in, and all of the sweatshirts, the Harvard sweatshers, like all the sweatshirts and all the,

it should be the Harvard sweatshirt. Sorry. You're, it's like the most, one of the most iconic Diana pieces of fashion. Isn't it? Look. Yeah. Okay. I'm changing my pick in real time.

It's like the sheep sweater. The revenge dress, the wedding dress, the Harvard. The Harvard sweatshirt. Okay. Wig watch. Mallory. I don't actually know if this is a wig. As you know, sometimes I struggle with this.

I don't have your gift. But I'll just say, Blair hair. Yeah, Blair hair. I also don't know if that's a wig. I'll be honest with you. But it seems wiggy to me. The way it's style, though, is like, wow. Yeah.

They're going from the Blair hair here. Blair hair is such a good phrase. I would give it to the Blair hair. We're not for the Apollo 13. stealth wig. The wig on the wig, you know? So, yeah. Best line of these last four episodes,

Malirubin. Okay. So my, you know, that hit me in the feelings. It made me think I'm going to spend some time reflecting on this alone later. Line is one I've already mentioned, which is John Major saying, it is strange, the human capacity for self-deception. I'll be noodling on that for a while in the privacy of my own home.

And then my my chuckle line, which often in the crown is something quite rude that a character says about another character was the queen mother during one of the many William. Here's how a remote control works scenes saying, it's so sad to see her struggle to understand a medium with which she's inextricably linked. The queen mother warming up for another metaphor monologue. like here comes the metaphor monologue. Are you ready, William? All right. Mying, you actually, you said Mying earlier, which made me feel warm inside. You said it's Elizabeth Charles. I was young. You've never been young, not even when you were young. Tough look for Queen Elizabeth as a mom. All right, MVP of these four episodes, Smalley Rubin. MVP is an easy one, right? I have to assume. We have to assume.

both have DeBickey here. DeBickey. It's really just like a genuinely sublime performance. So good. Yeah. And then best episode. Okay. I'm a little bit torn here actually because I want to say nine just because the scrambled

egg scene was clearly my favorite stretch of any of these episodes. But I don't think that was my favorite episode overall, though. I think eight. I had the exact same internal battle. I was like, best scene is scramble eggs. Best episode is gunpowder. Okay. We are in the same spot then.

Yeah. Again, John Burt, rumpled hair, trench coat, big cell phone, media, BBC. We went this far without mentioning that Duky only has one leg, which is just sort of like a weird running through line of the episode. So, yeah, gunpowder, for sure. We did it. We did the crown in an honorable stretch of time. What a journey it was. Joe. Mallory. I just want to say, Queen Elizabeth went out of her way to mention how busy she was, how hard she was working. I want to say the same about you. What a week from the monarch of prestige TV, Joanna Robinson. Incredible. I have had the pleasure of recording five pods with you this week. You've done more than that. You're assembling these genius, brilliant outlines, your host in, you're cranking. It's just remarkable to be in your presence on Zoom at least.

And I just think you're great. Oh, yeah, for this week only. If there were a yacht that were the embodiment of your essence as a seafaring vessel, I'm sure it would be decommissioned. Great at recording pods. For one night only, I will accept the title that you didn't confer upon me, but I'll conferred upon myself of crank mommy. But I don't usually aspire to that.

I'm happy to let Chris Ryan have the crank daddy title. No, Mal, you have obviously also been doing. You have to crank. You have also obviously been doing a lot of pods on top of the five that we did this week together. But what a joy to spend time with you talking about a television show that we love. So fun. Genuinely, so fun to do this. I'll see you again in a year.

And, oh, I mean, I'll see you in, you know, just a matter of probably hours until our next pod. But yes, also in a year to do The Crown again. This episode was produced by Here Among Men. Chris Sutton came through to do this episode late in the day for us. So I so appreciate him. And, yeah, I'll be back in the feed doing all manner of things, including, you know, White Lotus with Bill. Again, watch out for Yellowstone in the feed. out for sex lives of college girls in the feed.

And you can find Mallory and yours truly talking about Wakanda Forever and and or over on the Ringervorse. Farewell to Diana for now. We'll see her again in a bit. And bye to you all. Bye. This episode is brought to you by Netflix's remarkably bright creatures. What if a Pacific octopus held the key to a mystery that could heal your heart? Well, that's Tova's reality.

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