The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘The Crown’ Season 6, Episodes 1-2

Episode Date: November 17, 2023

Season 6 of ‘The Crown’ has finally arrived! Jo and Amanda sit down to recap the first two episodes of the four-episode drop on Netflix, including all the great performances and a beat-for-beat breakdown of the real-life controversies that inspired the show. Check back in the feed Monday for our recap of episodes 3 and 4. Hosts: Jo Robinson and Amanda Dobbins Producer: Sasha Ashall Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, I am Juliet Litman and I am one of the co-host of Ring or Dish. Ringer Dish is the podcast for all things, celebrity and entertainment. We've got you covered three days a week. So if your friends are sick of talking to you about, I don't know, celebrity real estate or the latest with the royal family or whatever Jennifer Lopez is up to, well, then you definitely should subscribe or follow Ring or Dish wherever you get your podcast. On Mondays, you'll hear from me and Amanda Dobbins on jam session. On Wednesdays, you'll hear from Erica Ramirez talking about pop culture through the lens of friendship. and friendships we see on the screen. And on Fridays, you'll get all of the tea on tea time with Liz Kelly, Kate Hallowell,

and Amelia Weddemeier. The Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson. No more preamble. No more Hall of Fame. We are here. This is it. Season 6 of the Crown has begun.

And I'm here with Amanda Dobbins to break down the first two episodes of you. Hello. Amanda, how are you? I'm thrilled. We've been waiting many years and certainly many months and weeks. and this is my favorite show at television, you know? Is it? Oh, really? Yeah, because the, like, personal interests paired with a high level of execution and a lot of money spent,

which for the, which I would like to talk about how money is spent and not spent in season six of the Crown. I didn't put this in our outline, but, like, I kind of want to introduce CGI watch, but that is neither here nor there. Oh, that's great. The point is, I think we're here to talk about the first four. episodes. Well, today we're talking about the first two episodes of season six. They have been released along with the second two episodes. So we have like a four-part parcel here in November. We'll be back next week to talk about the second two episodes. And then we get the last six

episodes in December. So you and I are here talking about episodes one and two, which I have to say, I like, I genuinely thought we're excellent. I was surprised by a lot of the choices. And I think, you know, we have some things to talk about, but like from just a basic acting, writing, things to look at ideas, I just, I enjoy it, you know? What about you? Yeah, no, I mean, I think these first four, well, yeah, we have some things to talk about in three and four, and we'll get to that next week, but I do think one and two are extremely solid.

And so this is persona non grata and two photographs are the first two episodes. So spoiler alerts, I suppose, for those two episodes. Though, why did you click on this podcast if you hadn't watched them? Both written by Peter Morgan. The first, directed by Alex Gabasi, who directed Mumu, an episode we both really loved in the last season and decommissioned, which was the finale last season, among other things. And then the second episode directed by, I'm going to butcher his last name again. It's Christian Shwishau.

I don't know. He's German. I really need to figure out how to pronounce that name. Who also directed our Hall of Fame episode, the one with Prince Charles. in Wales, and he directed two photographs. So this is, like, great directing team on these first two episodes, great material to work with from Peter Morgan. Before we get into everything we're going to talk about,

we're going to kind of get a character by character and then hit some of the structural questions comparing adaptive choices of what is real and what they tweaked to form their narrative, which is always a fun question to ask with the crown. I want to start by asking you, this is very much the privilege class enjoying their privileges, you know, episode. Is there a moment where you went, God would be lovely to have gobs of money? And was it watching Jumanji poolside at someone's villa in San Trope? Or was there another moment where you're like, yes, this is what I would do if I had ridiculous.

Yeah. So much of this episode is set in San Trope. at the Fayette Villa, and then on their series of yachts, not one but two. The indignity of being shoved over to the smaller supplemental yacht. To the small boat. Yeah. So like that right there for me, you know, I do think if I had access to that level of wealth and had solved all of the world's problems, I would then also spend my time

somewhere on the South of France Mediterranean border. I would say though that like I spend a lot of my time trying to understand how these people are living and particularly like how the yacht to villa like pipeline or not even pipeline but the what's a day like you're in your villa for a while and you have this spectacular view and then do you need to get in your like extremely large yacht to go 200 yards off the coast to go swimming like what are we day tripping? I think we take a little boat to the yacht. We take a little speedboat. Right, right, right. But it's like, but you already have the villa on the water. So like what is the purpose of being like, is the yacht like your, you know, like your pool raft, but, you know, worth billions of dollars? Okay.

And with a staff and like, you know, there's like excellent food and you have a beautiful pool at your villa, but also you have the ocean and excellent staff and catering whatever on your yacht. And one thing that I've noticed about Europeans and their relationship to swimming in the ocean is they don't like a beach access, you know, which to be fair in these Ritzie European locales, they often don't have, they don't have an American style sand beach. It's a lot of rocks. A lot of rocky outcrops. Yeah, exactly. So it's not the easiest entry. So I understand why they've optimized for like boat a little bit out into the water. to go swimming. Can I also just a personal anecdote while we're on yachts for on my honeymoon. I went to,

I went to Sicily, not the south of France. And we got someone to take us on a boat for a while. And we did the thing that all these people do where you like go somewhere and you like park in a little area and jump off and go swimming. And they informed me that Beyonce had been swimming in this exact spot like two weeks before. So that was really powerful for me. I love that for you genuinely. So I guess you're just like using. the giant yacht that could house a small country. To be clear, I'm guessing, because I've never in my life had nor been like very near yacht money. But yeah, that is my yacht guess. Overview of season six.

Yeah. We talked about this a little on the preview pod, but in case you didn't listen to that. We are here in 1997, specifically, as we're told later, we are eight weeks before Diana's death. Right? So summer of 97 is what we're. covering here through we've been told 2005. Tony Blair's prime minister for all of this. We're here from Diana's final days through the Queen's Jubilee and potentially Charles

and Camilla's wedding. That was a fun guess that Amanda had of like when we might be ending this. We were looking at like what happened in 2005 for the Royals that that was the end date that they were aiming for. Major historical world royal events. Diana dies obviously like that is the central thing that is both happens in. these first four episodes and will probably hang over the final six, even though we suspect they're going to do something of a time jump, obviously.

Yeah, I thought that was a smart, like, intuition by you. The casting, there's two wills this season, so one's a little older. So, you know, Margaret and the Queen Mother also die. And I think that that is like an interesting fodder for these are characters we've been with since the beginning and their relationship to Elizabeth and how they're kind of like the last young people who knew Elizabeth before she was an institution, I mean,

along with Philip. So like that's complicated. That's an interesting thing to think about. Will meets Kate Middleton. Have you heard of her? Charles is there and potentially marries Camilla. 9-11 happens somewhere in there. How much will that be covered? And equally important, as we find out in these first two episodes,

royal.gov.uk got launched. So, you know, thrilling. Really special stuff. Thrilling, thrilling TV. I'm not sure it's been updated since this scene that we watched set in 1997, but that's okay. Except for when they're like giving and taking away like poor Archie's titles, you know, just so like everyone can like get up and, oh my God. Leave Archie alone.

Leave Archie alone. I hope there's like a MIDI file of like Hail Britannia that plays when you open royal.gum. Okay. All right. So we're going to do character by character in this section. we're obviously going to start with Diana. This is, you know. And this can fit into character,

but can we just start with how season six opens? Absolutely, of course. Because it's fascinating. I obviously speaks to how they're going to portray Diana, but it's like a, it's a real mission statement, I guess, and also like an acknowledging the elephant in the room,

the whatever in the room. Yeah. So when you and I had speculated a lot about this, and there has been a lot of speculating in or concern trolling, you know, in the world at large of, like, how will this show handle Diana's death? And Peter Morgan and everyone associated the show has been very clear, like, we're not showing the crash. That would be tasteful.

Like, we're not doing it. Cut to the first three minutes of episode one of season six. It is a man in Paris. Eiffel Tower or fake Eiffel Tower is looming large. Although, I think, like, maybe it was CGI at some points, but, like, he's also definitely in Paris. Like, they're filming it on the Sen. Correct. They just needed that one angle of the Eiffel Tower to let you know where they are. And a man is walking his dog at night. And I don't know about you, but as soon as that flashed up, I knew exactly where and when we were. And I was like, oh, no. I know. I was surprised. I was like, shocked. Okay. So you are showing it. And he walks his dog and it's the whole thing. And his dog stops outside a tunnel. And then, I'm. a Mercedes speeds by and goes into the tunnel and you do not follow it into the tunnel,

but you hear a crash. And then you watch the man, like, make a 911 call and he says there was a crash in the Pont Alma cut to black. So they didn't show the crash, but like, they kind of showed the crash. I mean, they didn't show like the actual, it wasn't like fast five, you know what I'm saying, but like that is a pretty second for second reenactment. I think, I mean, I, you know, I'm not going to throw them a parade for how delicate they were, but they're, you know, when you read, I've spent the, you know, last week or so reading as many sort of accounts of the crash as I can stomach. And like, there is some stuff that happens in that tunnel. You know what I mean? Like there are descriptions because Diana didn't die instantly. Immediately. Yeah. So there's like descriptions of what was going on with Diana. There's description of like the first, there was a guy, a doctor driving. He had nothing. He wasn't called to the scene. He was just a doctor driving after midnight in Paris and stopped, you know. And then and then the paparazzi.

were taking photos of the bodies in the car. You know what I mean? So, like, I think to Peter Morgan's nightmare is to be associated with the paparazzi taking photos inside the car. So he's like, we're not going inside the car. Right. Like, that's just never going to happen. We're not even going inside the tunnel.

So, like, yes, we hear the crash. We see the car and the paparazzi on the motorcycles chasing it, like, as good as. But I do think there is a, like. No, there's obviously. There's like a Ryan Murphy, you know, British crime story version of this. Totally. Totally. Totally.

You're completely right. I just think they had been so direct about and like so vocal and protective about like, oh, we wouldn't show it. And like, we're going to treat it with like utmost respect. And I was like, oh, okay. But like, you know, you like have still hired a Mercedes, you know. So I was just surprised. I think starting with it is the most like because, you. You know, we'll come back to it again.

Like, this isn't the last or seeing of it. But, like, starting with it and then giving us the whole eight weeks later, so we're putting a clock on it, was like a really interesting thing to do to make it just sort of maybe... Because those of us watching who know enough, watching season five of the Crown and watching her get the call to go to San Trope, we're like, here we are. Oh, here it comes. This is it. But there are plenty of people who don't know that that's necessarily what the year 1997 means or that's what. what a trip to San Trope means or even like Doty the beginning of their relationship.

Like a lot of people don't know how short that was, like all of that. And so I think giving that clock is smart, but it alarmed, like, shocked me. Yeah. And it acknowledges that I think you're right that most people don't know like the TikTok or even, you know, I would assume most people can't off the top of their head, you know, recall that Diana died in August 1997. But I think most people do know that it's coming, right? So structurally, And storytelling-wise, it just puts it right at the, it's like, okay, we all know. Like this, and this is what we are working towards. And, you know, and it says in a way we're not, yes, this is what this show is building

towards and, you know, what these people are dealing with. We can't and aren't trying to evade it. I, when I was first watching it, I had also thought myself, I was like, oh, interesting. Because, you know, after there's the crash and the 911 call and then it cuts to the credits. And I was like, oh, so that's it. I was like, oh, that's fascinating that that's what they decided to do. And then they're just going to jump. And then it does the eight weeks later with the like truly impactful Chambalwamba.

Oh, my God. Needle drop, which is like really jarring. We'll talk more about the music in this episode. About tub fumping? I mean, it's just. I was like, we're in a moment. We are in 1997 when you hear Chumbabwamba playing. Yeah.

Yeah. So I think you're right that's structural. really it and storytelling-wise it makes a lot of sense. But it was another thing where I was surprised because as soon as you get to eight weeks later, at least I realized I was like, oh, so you're you're just doing a minute by minute of this. Like this is going to be a real TikTok, which I have to be honest, I was not expecting. Well, and I didn't know how much, you know, I anticipated that the crash would be in these first four episodes. But I wasn't sure if it was going to be at the end of the first. You know,

like we're in we're covering two episodes the crash hasn't happen yet right so they're squeezing as much d'bicki out of this as as they can you know because there's a version of this where the crash app is the first episode and the three um the follower the aftermath or something like that right right right right but as we've been saying on our preview pods and um the hall of fame pod peter morgan made an aftermath film it's called the queen it's tremendous you know i i would i would go look look at it. And I'm really excited next week to talk to you, like, compare and contrast how this was handled between versus... The fourth episode of this season is called, literally, aftermath. Yeah. So, okay, let's talk about Debicki as Diana. Something that you wrote in our recap,

where we left off was, like, impeccable jeans on Elizabeth Debicki. This is, of course, just like a parade of swimwear. This is like, the legs are out. Like... All model, on like real swimsuits that were paparazzied. Absolutely. If you, if you, like, one of the swimwear companies,

like, recreated that sort of animal print, um, swimsuit that she, I mean, like, a lot of them are recreations, but one of,

like, the company reissued it and you can gollishly if you want, like, go buy it if you want the, I mean, I mean to be like, I don't know why you added ghoulish. So I wouldn't buy the animal print,

but she's wearing like a two piece. She's wearing like a swimsuit with matching, sarong at one point. The turquoise in the green? Yeah, when she's like, this was like white and blue, I think. I don't know if turquoise is really my color. But the other suit, I think when she's like throwing ice at Doty and William, I was like, oh, maybe that could be part of my mom yacht life. Oh, I hope you do have a mom yacht life. Thank you so much. But you don't think that that is the right. I don't know why my instinct was to put ghoulish there because like ice is nothing wrong with having like the sheep sweater. Like, I think that's really sweet. I have it.

But also, I just, I want everyone to know that it was gifted to me, perhaps even before the crown started as a show, and certainly before Harry Styles wore one. But I think there's something about the final days looks that, like, that feels a little ghoulish to me. But if you, if you decide to get it and you rock it, I will support you. Okay, thank you. So while we're talking about her wardrobe, the swimsuits are amazing. I spent a lot of time Googling belts and watches after watching these two episodes.

And, you know, like, we do know in general, like the 90s and edging into Y2K are back in fashion. And so, you know, like a lot of these belts are like either being like recreated or, you know, amazing options on the Real Real right now. If anyone's interested, watch is a little out of my price range, you know. The Cardi. Is it Cartier? It's a Cartier taste, yeah. She wore a tank frances. Well, a tank for every day and a tank frances.

Though I don't know whether that's what Doty gave her because she had a different, whatever, no one cares. I spend so much time Googling this stuff. So they're getting it right. And it is inspirational and aspirational, even though I agree that probably that's not the lesson that they want us to be taking from this particular set suite of episodes. To be clear, if in general you want to recreate. like this late 90s yacht mom look like I support it.

My horrifying fashion response was to like post-2000s. I think I think the aughts fashion is like my most horrifying nostalgia trip that's happening. Like I just, I hate odds fashion personally. I do too. And also like we were, we're a similar age. And so we were at like a very vulnerable fashion like phase of life where you're trying all of the clothes that, like, really, you know, shouldn't be trying.

They don't, you know, wear what you want in life. Yeah. But I didn't, I didn't need, like, the ruffle mini skirts. Do you know what I'm saying? That was, that was not Amanda's look. I feel like I never needed to wear a shirt that only had one strap to it. You know, the Tarzan tops were really a thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It was just not ever my look. Okay. So, we're on the yacht. We're wearing, like, incredible swims that Amanda may soon be monitored. modeling on her own yacht life that is in her future. But also, we are heartbroken and devastated at the same time. And in the world of the crown, the narrative is that Diana is heartbroken because she's still carrying a torch for Charles.

When by all reports that... Well, I have a question about that. Is it that she is still carrying a torch for Charles, or is it that she lost? Well, I think it can all be wrapped up in one thing, but it's just... sort of like, to be clear, most people consider this era of Diana, whether she's trying to like flaunt something with Doty or get paparazzi attention or whatever, that the person that she is aiming that at is Hosnot Khan, who is the boyfriend of her as the doctor that we met in season five, the like insane wig at the movie theater's date scenario.

So Diana's heartbreak slash design. for attention slash desire to win. I can certainly see the argument that it's all wrapped up into one thing, but they're aiming that in the direction of Charles. Like, Hosnick Khan's not even mentioned anywhere, which is my... And I kind of understand why, because we've been following the Charles story forever. To make Hasnott Khan, like, the main, main character in these final episodes or whatever might seem like it's off the plot.

And if you want to see that story, Naomi Watts made an ill-advised Diana movie, and you can follow the story in that. That's a tough one. Saeed from Lost. So, you know, you could just like a real glow up for good old husband. Anyway. So it's a different framing. And I think I understand your point because when she, she has a scene with Charles in these

two episodes when the boys are loaded in the car where she's pitching in his heartbreak and she's crying. But the language, she's using it as like the runner up. So I can see what you mean about like, is it about winning or is it about her heartbreak, you know? And, you know, and she says. when they're on their way to San Jose and the boys are kind of like, why do we have to do this? She's just like, well, your father's throwing a birthday party for you know who and I just didn't want to be in the country while that's going on. And you can see that as, you know, I still haven't gotten over this like life-defining heartbreak. I mean, and like, listen, like Diana was done wrong and that situation. I mean, like, everything else aside, you know, there were three people in that marriage. But.

it can also be understood and is portrayed in many ways later in the episode as a media battle, right? And she understands that that is being pitched as like she's being replaced and it's a public performance. And so she wants to create her own space. So I think, you know, and I think one of the tensions, certainly in all the biographies of Dianette and in the crown is like, how much was that relationship or how much is any relationship or real relationship versus, you know, you're doing it for what's expected of you in this role or media, what have you. So it's complicated, but you're right to note that Hasnac Khan is just kind of like a after, you know, a footnote in the series. Yeah, they make him sort of like a flash in the pan in the series.

When at this moment in her life, Diana was rather fixated on him. And I'm not to say that he was like endgame love of her life. I really don't think she would have stayed with him forever. I do think she might have married him if she could have. I don't think they would have stayed married. But like that was something she really wanted. And by all accounts, she wanted it. And it was he didn't want to put up with the, um, the group wrong.

Really. Joe Alwyn, Taylor Swift sort of situation if you want to. Right. If you want to. And she just needs her Travis Kelsey, I suppose. So anyway, an interesting framing of this moment for Diana. and what leaves her vulnerable to exposure is summed up by Elizabeth herself when she says, it's hard to be having anything you're either in or you're out as a divorced woman and no longer

HRH, her royal highness. Diana is learning the difference between being in the royal family and out. What do you want to say about this quote, Amanda? Well, I noted immediately that this is identical to the language that was quoted at the time. And again, you know, how we get this information of, oh, like the queen feels this way about so or so IRL is flawed at best. But the refrain that was ascribed to her throughout the whole Harry and Megan situation was you're either in or you're out. And so, you know, they wanted to do this half thing where they lived in the U.S. But they got, you know, and it was always a very firm answer.

and her attitude was described as in or out. And so when I see something like that in the crown, I assume that that's intentional, you know? Like I assume or it's at least written with knowledge of like they're aware of that language and they've like put it somewhere else. We know that they're not going beyond 2005, but I wouldn't be surprised if some, like, because we're getting in, there's a very young actor playing Harry here. We'll get an older actor playing Harry in the parts coming out in December.

I wouldn't be surprised with some of the like, spare narrative is seeded there, obviously not dealt with because that's not where Harry was at that point in his life, but I'm sure we'll see some of the seeds of that. And I think Peter Morgan throughout, one of the fun things about the crown has been to see how these dynamics echo around, you know what I mean? Like, Margaret seeing herself in Diana, but not extending

that olive branch of Diana, but Margaret also seeing what might have been with Charles and Camilla. You know what means to like the echoes of the dynamics come again and again, almost in like a sort of doomed, like prophetic sort of way. And so this idea that we see, you have this very, you know, I trust you to know what was quoted around Harry and Megan to have this seemingly very intentional, you know, pre-echo of that language. Yeah, absolutely.

But I think Diana's attempt, like her attempt to control the, like what we get here, before things get Corrine, sorry to use that word, out of control in three and four is Diana is in a position where she thinks she can still take control of the press. We see it actually Corrine in as early as episode two. But like she's in this sequence in that animal print swimsuit, which you can find the photos of her sort of like posturing literally on a boat for the paparazzi in the suit. this ascribes her motivations to like being protective of William, like she's trading something for William and or trading something because she knows is Camilla's birthday. You know, like that's what the photographer accuses her of.

Right. But either way, like that, that those photos exist. Her tease of like what come coming, like a surprise is coming next. That's a real thing that happened. But I think it's interesting that when we talk about who is this show sympathetic to, or who is it giving a sympathetic lens to? I think mixing in the attention-seeking with the protective of her children instinct,

I think that's accurate of Diana, and I think it's a favor that they do her in this moment. Yeah, and it's pretty accurate from kind of both motivations throughout the course of her life. You know, the most famous example is the revenge dress, which there's a Tina Brown story where she had originally RSP'd no to that particular event. And once the announcement of the interview,

she phones a friend back up and it's like, oh, actually, you know, I'm available, which suggests, you know, that it was quite intentional. And then, you know, going back to honestly, before she even married Charles, there's a very famous photograph of Diana at the kindergarten where she worked holding two children. And the son is behind her

and sort of shines through her skirt. and so you can just like see her like very beautiful legs and it became like a very famous photograph. But that was given in exchange for like a bunch of photographers were at this kindergarten. And I, you know, as Tina Brown does it, says, puts it, she, the teachers at the school encouraged her to do one photograph and then they would all be left alone, which, you know, she did. And there's even, you know, this is something Kate Middleton did. There are anecdotes of like when, before she married Prince William, she would know, okay, like, if I'd go give them this photograph, then they'll all leave us alone. And I can go back to like my party planning job or whatever, in quotes. Yeah.

So, you know, I think that it's true to Diana. I think it is true to how celebrities operated then and how the royal family operated then to an extent. And, you know, I think some of it is someone who is interested in celebrity. It's still kind of happening this way, you know? I mean, it's just the machinery. You know way more about it than I do. And I mean, that is a compliment. But I have been, like, fascinated in my, to learn about, like, if paparazzi photos, if it was done through back grid, then the celebrity themselves, like, called the paparazzi.

Stuff like that is just like. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. So, again, to put it in the, like, contemporary celebrity. drama parlance. Joe Jonas with his kids, out with his kids, that was back grade.

So Joe Jonas called the photographer. You know, etc., etc. So, yeah. Right. What do you want to say about Diana and like her, like, tortured family stuff that we get here with her and Doe?

Yeah, so she gets a scene with Doty at the end of episode one. And it's after Doty's fiance has showed up on the small boat, which we can come back to. And there basically, exchanging sad dad stories. And it is

Mumu Dode's father, Mohamed Fahed, is presented, and like actually is extremely like controlling Machiavellian. Like it's... Machiavellian father.

Yeah. Whereas Diana's father, Earl Spencer, not the Earl of. Did you know that with the no of connotes like a higher level of rank?

I didn't. I, apparently. So like Earl Spencer is more important than like the Earl of Sandwich. I don't actually know if that's factually true, those two examples.

But anyway, Earl Spencer was the absent dad. And that's, like, really only part of the saga with Diana. Her parents had, like, a very bitter divorce very early on. Her mother was, like, denied custody and then moved away. Do you believe the story about Diana pushing her stepmom down the stairs? Oh, and then, yeah, oh, the rain, yeah, with all of the bags. Yeah. Yeah, yes.

There's another story of, because so then after the divorce and Diana's grandmother, maternal grandmother, testified against her own daughter in the custody trial. Yikes. So that the kids would stay with the dad because the grandmother was like a major social climber. Anyway, dad remarries this woman named Rain, who is not popular with the kids. So there's an anecdote of Diana slapping her dad in the face at some point, like out of anger because, you know, they've been abandoned for the second wife. There's the story of pushing down the stairs. There's also a story about after her father dies, something with like Louis Vuitton luggage and it being property of the Spencer family.

And so they make their stepmother repack all of her stuff in garbage bags and then they like throw them out the window. as they were like packing her out of the house. Yeah. So I mean, again, these are all like anecdotes. I read in a book, but it's like, it's not like a happy, functional, supportive family relationship that she comes from. And I think like weighed very heavily on her from like all sides. And, you know, I think contributed to this hope of like a night and shining armor who would come

and, you know, and like make everything. And like, okay, and not abandon her. You know, sorry to be like psych 101. But it's like right there. And the boy, like, and the boys in her role as a mom with the boys. And she's just like it's going to be so different. Yes. With me.

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So it's sort of interesting here to just see like the dad stuff isolated. And obviously that's so that she can relate to the Doty character where it like very clearly is a dad thing. And I think that is, I mean, it's already signaled in season five and Moomoo the episode that we like so much that that is a major issue. And, you know, parallels nicely in a way with Charles, who has historically had both dad and mom issues. The mom issues are coming to the forefront.

But like the idea of this like deeply controlling and disappointed parent who you just can't please is like a theme that they are clearly drawing out. from everyone. It's, I mean, it's really just like bad parents, the TV show, which I guess all TV shows are. But, you know, I thought, I thought it was interesting because otherwise you haven't really heard about Diana's family. Yeah, you like meet her sister briefly. But other than that, like, you're not really in the family. You meet one of the sisters. Can I go in on her sisters for a second? Okay. So one of her sisters, one of her sisters, Sarah dated Charles before Diana did. Right. Correct. The other sister, who I think is like featured very briefly at one point. The other sister Jane. is married to the Queen's private secretary, Robert Fellows. So, like, the guy who is leading the charge, like, politely against Diana throughout and managing all of the stuff with the Queen throughout this whole season is quite literally her brother-in-law. And I don't have siblings, so, like, I don't totally understand how all that works, but I place some of that blame on Jane.

I'm just going to put that out there. I think it's so interesting that they're not underlining that at all, like, because we We know the family truth, so we know that, but they're not making the audience know or remember that that is her brother-in-law inside the inner circle. Let's talk about Charles. So we talked a lot about how Charles in season five was given this sort of like ambitious, coup-centric storyline that seemed extremely fictionalized. They seem to have given up that tack in season six. And the focus is much more on the Camilla and Charles love story. and Charles is a father, all of that.

He comes to visit the queen and sees a mouse briefly, but maybe doesn't. That's like the only, I mean, it just reminded me not to get too genre on you, but it reminded me in House of the Dragon, they're just like vermin in every corner of that castle all the time, which is just like something that I love about that. This was like an interesting little, like, surreal moment of like, is there a mouse in Buckingham Palace or not? I'm sure there are mice everywhere in Buckingham Palace. Right. So we get this, the Camilla Charles love story.

and I just need to stop and give my flowers to Dominic West for his delivery of love, mommy, love? Like, it was just, like, you know, petulant Josh O'Connor Charles, like, came rising up to the surface in that delivery. It was so good. That scene is brutal. And it, like, yeah, with her doting on the corgi and barely giving him the time of day. Which, by the way, by all accounts, is just, like, factual. Like, she just, she loved those dogs. And, you know, only had feelings for animals, not for people.

But she is ice cold. It really brought to, are you a Harry Potter person? Yes. Okay. So, Amaldistan played Dolores Umbridge. And it, it, that, that scene had, like, a little Dolores Umbridge. Like, you know, they're different characters and one is performative and the other is, um, purposefully. not. But I was like, wow, this is just like, like evil politeness. You expected the like,

hem him like that. I mean, it's just kind of like skin crawling in a way that I have to give Amelda's like, I give Amelda's dot an immense credit for. Like, it's incredibly frustrating. And it's, you know, and I do think the show is portraying the queen at this point as like pretty out of touch. She just keeps being like she's a divorced woman and it's like no one cares. But then on the other hand, you have Charles just like determinedly not reading the room to the point that he goes to see his mom in person to ask like why she didn't answer his invitation. When we all know why from like, we all know why. She's not coming, Charles. Decades and kilometers away. We know why. So this birthday party, which is like a main pillar

of the first episode for Camilla's lavish birthday party, is part of you meant you were right to call out this sort of Camilla rehab spearheaded by Mark Boland, you know, spin doctor that they hired to try to get Camilla's reputation in a place where Camilla and Charles could marry. So this birthday party was like a big public declaration of legitimacy, I suppose, for Camilla. And I just wanted to read this like sort of recap that I found that also includes some tidbits from tabloids of the day. right, speaking of the media angle. 80 guests, including Parker Bull's ex-husband, Andrew, and his second wife, gathered at

High Grove Charles Country State in southwest England for canopas, followed by a five-course meal and birthday cake, then dancing. According to this, this is me, Joanna, according to this report, no other royals were invited, the news report said. So whether or not that's true, that's not the story the crown's telling you, but it does explain why Elizabeth's not there. Not surprisingly, Charles's ex-wife Diana, who was blamed Parker Bowles for destroying the royal marriage, was also left off the guest list. Quote, for one evening at least, Camilla will be queen of her own court, gushed the royalist express tabloid.

Quote, it is now plain as day that Mrs. Parker Bowles and the Prince of Wales want to get married and are running a massive public relations operation to try to influence opinion in her favor, said an editorial in the independent. On Thursday, Camilla's birthday, the mayor of tabloid published a survey showing 67% of the president. of Britons think the couple should marry. So two last things I want to say about this part before I hand it over to you. One is, I understand that this is a big, like, sort of media push. At the same time, I was charmed to see Camilla and Charles, who really are kindred spirits, like, enjoying themselves. Like, Charles is someone that I have a huge chip of my shoulder about, but it's, but what's also true is that, you know, you like to see every pot is his lid

and you like to see that these two people who enjoy the world the same way have found each other and then secondly I will say Charles reading Captain Wentworth's

letter from Persuasion my favorite Jane Austen book one of my favorite like moments in all romantic moments in all of literature half agony half hope like that whole thing I was just like screaming

I was like I cannot believe that Charles is reading Captain Wentworth's letter replacing Anne with the word Camilla and just sort of like making it his speech to her on her birthday. I just, I was stunned. Stunt. It was, that whole speech is tremendous writing because the first half of it is about,

and I assume it's written and imagined and not based on facts. I couldn't find anything corroborated that this happened. The first half is just Charles like toasting Camilla and literally calls her heroic for like staying with him, which is just like the most selfish. involved, like, embarrassing nonsense. And then he pulls out the persuasion speech, which is just, like, immaculate. And then

he ends it. And is this from persuasion or somewhere else, or is for you, I live in plan, just like something that he... That's from persuasion. That is. That's the last part of it. It's from the letter. He just swapped out Ann Elliott's name, the main character,

Persuasion. It's for... Camilla's for you, I live in plan. Yeah. Okay. It's magnificent. And the way that Dominic West performs it is magnificent. And I was really charmed. And I think, like, you know, then they have Margaret, they have Margaret there for the parallels of, you know, her relationship, however many years ago.

What she couldn't have. Yeah. And so they have her call a little bit, as she says, from, like, the hall and giving a party report, which, by the way, is, like, I think a thing that happened a lot. Like, there were a lot of, it was more. like ladies and waiting and people of the court who were tasked to basically like sneak off and give like real time updates, usually on how Diana was behaving at any given event, which I mean, imagine living with that. But they have Margaret say that that Camilla really brings out the best

in Charles and she's like, I've never seen him like this. He's more confident. He is like, you know, more invite. He's like what you would want to see in a king. And that kind of persuades the queen to come around a little bit. So, you know, so it's, I agree with you about Charles as a person. He kind of seems like he sucks. And, you know, they do have a scene when he gets the press coverage the next day. And Diana has once again upstaged him as she did for their entire, their entire marriage. And he is like pissy and he has a little tempered syndrome.

Yeah. Yeah. And like, you know, that's, I believe that that happens regularly. we've all seen the real video of him with the pen, you know, and just being like, why doesn't this pen work? So I agree with you, but the show is softening him. And I think on purpose, and I think trying to at least portray, is portraying the Camilla Charles relationship in that light.

As a love story, like, I can't think of a story that the Crown has told so far that feels more like this is a lot. Like even, you know, even Philip and Lilibet, even when they're, like, on safari or whatever, they are at the beginning of season one, like, it's still so much more complicated that, I mean, obviously, this is complicated leading up to this. But, like, I will say, like, when the queen calls him and they're just, like, sitting in their little sitting room, like, reading by the fire together, I was just like, that's lovely. Seems nice. Yeah. It seems very nice. It seems great.

The other nice prize that Margaret is just like, wow, this house is beautiful, you know? Because I guess she's never been. I guess she didn't watch season five and hear all about his plans for High Grove and how he was going to plant it. It's apparently wonderful. You know, they have not done any organic farming yet or very much gardening. Apparently, it's like a real feat of organic, what have you. Royal factoid, correct me if I'm wrong. But I believe one of the things that Charles supporters will say is that Highgrove is

completely self-sustaining in terms of like he doesn't draw money from the people in order to support that estate. Yeah, but then he's like before he became king, he was the Duke of Cornwall, which like pays him like millions of pounds a year. And that's like the people just like paying rent and what have you. Never mind. No credit to Charles. And then he, and then they like invested in the Panama Papers or whatever. I don't really know. And I'm just like saying buzzwords, you know, but yes and no is what I was. would say to you. Snoring, gasping during sleep, feeling fatigued, ask your doctor about Zepbound, terseptite. The first and only FDA approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe

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Call 1-800-545-99-79. or visit setbound.lily.com. All right, let's go through. So I would say we only get it like somewhat teased here, but I think what's true, and I'm kind of just basing this off the fact that like one of the later episodes is called Will's Mania. Like Will is really going to be pulled to the four in this season,

the Will and Kate stuff we know is coming. We get this interim Will, right? This is not, Rufus Campa is not the actor who is playing Will. It was Dominic West's son who was playing Will last season. Oh, what? Yeah, and he's not the actor who's going to be playing Will at St. Andrews. This is a gawky teenage, very shy Will. And I love the little, like, right at the beginning.

Because, like, literally no time has passed between the finale of season 5 and the opening here, but they recast the two boys. And so we get this line from Sherry Blair at the beginning of, like, about Will, like, he's grown. Yeah. Because we have a different actor now. But, like, how do you feel about the way Will is used in these early ups? I don't know if you want to save any of this for three and four, but, like, what do you think of him here? Yeah, I might save a little bit of it.

But it is notable that Diana brings Will along to her meeting with the prime minister or, like, her play date with the prime minister at Chequers, the prime minister's country estate. The prime minister's camp David for the Americans following along. And that reflects what has been portrayed as her trying to involve him in the decisions of how she navigated her career, for lack of a better word, and preparing him for how to deal with the media and how to deal or how she dealt with the media at any rate. And like a recognition that he was going to have to take all of this stuff on. I think also, you know, Peter Morgan has said, I'm ultimately interested in, in the, this is a show called. the crown. And so I'm interested in the monarchs. Yeah, the heir. So it is Elizabeth to Charles, to William. Diana was just sort of like an unavoidable sort of like distraction, but like how could you not? Which like in many ways is the most interesting dramatically of all the things that

have happened. You can do either like the queen sat in a room with the prime minister and said this about, you know, the Suez Canal or you can do they just had a soap opera for 10 years, you know, that we like all watched in real time. So I understand why it's option B. But I do also think the Williams stuff allows them to do another generation like of parents, you know, and and expectations and, and, you know, and again, it's like slightly Shakespearean. That's, that's what history is about in a way. So it all makes sense to me. It so far seems the most respectful is a loaded world, but the most careful, I guess, of all of the portrayals, right? They, like, to me, they are really walking a line where it's about child.

It's about someone who lost his kids. It's about someone who's, like, you know, they're like, if they're adding, like, epilogues on the ends of episodes being like, the prince's trust is really great and has, like, saved a lot of people's lives. Then this is, like, written into the show itself of being like, wow, what a thoughtful kid who we're not going to like poke with a stick too much. Does that register to you at all? Yeah, I would say definitely in these early.

I mean, like Harry is sort of barely here at all, gets a great little like little pop peep, like the brothers making fun of their father moment. Right, right. Right. But like, yeah, I think it's too early to determine how they're going to treat Will since I expect the last six episodes are they're going to be like so will focused. So like what, how will Peter Morgan and his team

treat a William who is 18. You know what I mean? Like, what will that look like versus this 15-year-old boy who is just about to lose his mother? You know what I mean? Like, kid, kid gloves here. We'll see what happens in the back half. We haven't seen those episodes. Something that I thought was really fascinating that I didn't know was like, we got this a bit in the last season about this idea of Diana sort of crossing boundaries with William in terms of like how much she treated him as like a friend and a confidon and like her little man and all this stuff like this, something that like Elizabeth was kind of appalled by in season five. But I was reading this piece in Vanity Fair just about like Diana and the media and her kids. And there's this report from Peers Morgan. So take it with, you know, a mountain of salt. Yeah, from the lunch. Yeah.

You know, where he has this lunch with William and Diana. And he says of William, he is clearly in the loop on most of her bizarre world. and in particular the various men who come into it from time to time. And that he said that Will had one, had the, the Julia Carling, whose husband, Will Carling had an affair with Diana. And Julia was like vocal to the press about it. William, Corey to Pierce Morgan, again, giant amount of salt, had her face on his dartboard at school. So like he was not only like aware of this affair that his mom was having with a married man, but so on her side that he's like, yeah, the wife is the villain.

Also, put it up at school. This Vanity Fair article alleges sort of like as a signal to the other boys. Yeah, I think so. This is his stance on things. And I was just sort of like, that is touched on a bit here. We see this version of Will, this 15-year-old Will sort of scoping out Doty. He seems to have opinions, all this sort of stuff, reading the tabloids surreptitiously, all of that. I just thought that was kind of interesting seed to plant.

And he says before they. leave to go to Balmoral, you know, he's, he kind of pushes her and he's like, oh, are you going back on the boat with Doty? And then he says he's weird. Yeah, which is like as close as they get, most accounts suggest that Doty was like a real flashpoint between Diana and William and that he was really not approving and frustrated. And also, you know, kind of just didn't want to be looped in on it, but that we'll talk about it more in episodes three and but that they weren't on the best of terms about it. Right.

Now, some of that might just be because of the amount of media attention that at all. Well, it's also true is that, I mean, we'll, I mean, we can talk about this right now if I want to. Like, Doni Fayette gets one of the most, like, sympathetic. I mean, I really liked his treatment in Mumu as well. Like, in terms of, like, a character that I am emotionally invested in, the fictionalized Doddy Fayette is he shows up in season five. Yes. like, I care about this poor soft man who just wants to make cherries a fire or whatever. You know what I mean?

Right, right. I care about that. And then he shows up here, and he's objectively doing stuff, like, hopping yachts and having sex with one woman while, like, sort of wooing the other at the behest of his father. Like, he's doing all these things. But again, he is getting, it's both in the portrayal, I think, and also just sort of like a just a real sympathetic wash. But the real d'Odiya, Fayed, like, not to speak tremendously ill of the dead, but like,

Like, just the reality is like, he's just, you know, if I were will, I would also not want my mom necessarily dating this guy. You know what I mean? Like a bit skeezy, a bit like, you know, it's just international playboy, coffee, etc. You know, like so stuff. So like, it's a fascinating sympathy wash that they're giving Dony. The other thing that they do a little bit in Mark two, in episode two, especially with the Mark Ballin character, is, you know, they start saying.

at the, just like, whether you want to call it dog whistling or like outright racism of the British press in the way that this relationship was covered. And also seemingly how the royal family responded to it, you know, there's Mark Ballin strategizing and trying to get Charles through the second photograph. And he's like, oh, wouldn't it, you know, represent such like a nice dichotomy, you know? And then- English country, you know. Exactly. Like Elizabeth, like repeats all of the details. And that was like certainly a part of the coverage of Diana and and and the coverage of the aftermath. So I mean, you're right. I want to be, I want to be careful with that because like I don't, I don't want to like fall into that trap at all. But what is wild to me is that it feels like

they are leading all the way in with Mohammed, like turning him into like he might as well be twirling his mustache villain and then giving Doty this like saintly wash to him, this like poor poor boy wash. It is true. Literally, Kelly Fisher was like on another boat and like suing him.

Yeah. I will also say this, the casting, the wash of Kelly Fisher is I think quite complimentary as well. You know,

I don't know whether there were as many tasteful pantsuits going on in real life. But yeah, I think you're right that they are trying

to distract you from that just being like like an overtly gross thing, you know? Yeah. And it was just like a bad, like a thing that Diana did for a summer that by all account, she had no intention of like continuing outside of the summer. Right.

And, you know, I think they're like, we don't want this like bad idea of romance to be the last like the last thing that Diana is doing. Anything you want to say about Elizabeth and Philip or anyone else before we roll forward? The line that Elizabeth has, Diana, one would almost feel sorry for her if one weren't so cross with her. I thought it was a really good one. But in general, I think I agree with your preseason assessment of like the ineffectuality of the characterization of somewhat of the performances is reflected in just the way in which

these characters are just receding in the storyline. I was really struck by Amalda Stun's performance on the phone call that she makes to Charles at the end of episode one, which I just, and you know, it's like trying to be nice about Camilla, I guess, or as like nice as she can be. And she's just like fully channeling Claire Foy. And, you know, and I know like acting is a skill that people have. And I'm sure, like, she studied it. But it's amazing.

Like the cadence, like the facial expressions, I was like, oh, like, this is really, really striking. So I, you know, kudos to her. I guess the other thing that I want to say, as the boys are going off to Balmoral, Diana's, like, making some jokes about how much it sucks there. and then cut to Elizabeth, Philip, and a bunch of other people just, like, hanging out in the rain, you know, for, like, a month in August.

I don't get it. That's, I just, like, I know it's where they feel safe is. Yeah. Me neither. I understand. Like, Scotland is beautiful, and it also must be nice to own that much of it. But I just, that's what they do in the summer

is just, like, wear wool and, like, tramp around in the rain. Yeah. It's not my idea of summer. I've never understood it. There's no time. Like, I also think Scotland is beautiful and it has its time and its place so like that. But tramping around and like damp wool is just, you will never find me doing it. So, and like, you know, game hunting, something you'll never find me doing.

But yeah, I love that Harry. I do love that Harry's like, it's fun. You know what I mean? Like, the boys do like it. Like, I think it's so fascinating that, like, Diana, with the like Uno, playing Uno montage or, you know, the fun. What was that machine? I didn't know there was like a Uno.

It was like Super Uno. I never had it. Yeah. It looked amazing. Yeah. I'm jealous of whoever had whatever, super Uno. But like, like playing Uno, the like cool pop songs that are always playing when Diana's around.

Like all this, like, Fun Mom, right, is really, is the vibe. She's wearing a Duran Duran Dishirt. Yeah. But I love that. I love that Will and Harry have this relationship with their grandmother who is. like just could not possibly be far enough away from cool if possible. But they like, you know, by all accounts, Harry and William, like, love their granny and just like love spending time with her. Well, they're British, so, you know.

Before we go, that's sort of our character tour. We want to do some like conceptual tours just to like cover the structure of this. We already talked about how they opened with a crash. But I want to talk about this dual photograph conceit of the second episode and how both with... Three photographs. I mean, I understand why they did it structurally, but I do think the landmine photograph is also essential. Oh, that's a really good point. You're right. Three photographs. The way in which both episodes, you mentioned this guy walking his dog after midnight in Paris, that we open with like the people in both of these episodes, the two photographers and this dog walker. I don't know if that was an intentional like the people's princess sort of idea. Like we're really focused on the people opening these various episodes or if it's just coincidental. But I thought that was kind of an interesting thing.

We've done similar-ish ideas before in previous seasons of the Crown where we focus. You already mentioned this in our sort of preseason episode that like we'll focus on a journalist or this, that, and you know, like an instrumental figure. Like the people who come into contact with the royal family for a certain period of time. So you get like a slice of like, yeah, like a slice and like and a different perspective and highlight a different part of the royal family without it having to be like trudging through chronology. Charles's tutor, et cetera, et cetera. So we get Mario Brenna, like, who's portrayed as a sleazy paparazzo and, you know, the world's

most darling and adorable Scotsman, Duncan Muir, is our, is our wide contrast that they're trying to show us. Mario Brenna, as far as I can tell, first of all, so he's portrayed as this sort of like, he said, he literally says in this little like opener, like, I'm as fame. I'm as famous as, you know, because of my work, I'm as famous, whatever. Mario Brenna has not given interviews. I looked everywhere for Mario Brenna interviews. They are not, they do not exist. So I, whatever else may be true, I disagree with this like portrayal of him as like, so attention seeking in some way. By all accounts, he's like a fashion photographer, a high society photographer, which they allude to, but this idea of him being like the consummate paparazzo, the hunter,

all this sort of stuff seems extremely invented for the crown that that was not really his vibe at all. Do you have any Mario Brenner thoughts or feelings? Maybe someone's paying him to not give the interviews. Have you ever thought about that, Joanna? I don't know. I don't know why I said that. It goes deep. It goes all the way down. I think, yeah, I mean, this is a very classic, like, one person being asked to stand in for, like, a whole phenomenon, which in this case was, like, the real, I mean, paparazzi existed. That's kind of silly because there's so many popera, members of the paparazzi in this episode. Right, right, right. But, like, he gets the, I mean, some of it is just, you know, it's like structure, right?

In the same way that, like, really honestly, that there are three essential photographs in this episode, but they want to tell the story of, like, the Diana World versus, like, the. Scotland world and and like those media narratives as well. This is a, it's a media episode. So this person who did take this one famous shot is being asked to stand in for like a real explosion, I think, in Diana paparazzi for sure. But really, as they talk about like the finances of these photographs and this market and this economy. It's extremely important. Like as I was just sort of like when I was beginning my research for this episode and I just sort of like Google the photo like keywords about the photo just to like find out whether or not this exact framing of it existed or whatever. The first article I was served was characterizing it as the most expensive paparazzi photo ever taken and it has not been surpassed since the late 90s. Partially because the, you know, what happens with Diana's death sort of changes.

relationship with the paparazzi and reputable news outlets and all the sort of stuff like that. But by various reports, he got paid either $5 million or $6 million for the various sort of syndications. Right. And I mean, they even break it down the licensing and all of that. He had a, he had like a couple other photographers who were helping him like broker the deal with various presses around the world and all this. It was like a whole thing. But so if he becomes a millionaire overnight because of one shot he gets. that it of course lays the track for the stakes for the frenzy that we get in later episodes

because it's like you're not just chasing a shot, you're chasing the million dollar payout, right? Right. And again, like Robert Fell is like explains it pretty succinctly of like this, this is like really open the market for her, which it did that summer. And you're right to say that after her death while being chased by paparazzi, it recently. sets for a bit. But then, you know, I think if you want to know more about the inner workings of Pobrati, we did a whole narrative podcast series about this, hosted by Claire Malone. It's called Just

Like Us. It's incredible. Amazing. And, you know, and I think in a lot of ways, like that market transfers from the royal family to the U.S. and Hollywood and there's, and, you know, Benefer, but it's great and slightly horrifying, not even slightly, and horrifying and fascinating. So I recommend that to kind of see where all this leads. Yeah, it's so smart. And Claire in general, she's brilliant. But like this idea, I was like looking at the price tags of, because there's price tags of other photos, but all the ones that are higher than this one are celebrities selling

their own photo, which is something that like, you know, became a thing. Just a fun fact, since we're here. The highest price tag I could find was when Angie and Brad sold photos of Knox and Vivienne, their twins, the twin babies, $15 million to People magazine and to hello. My own photos of my Knox did not summon 15, not yet, you know? Okay. There's time. I haven't really gotten on the photo of people.

Was when you become a yacht mom. Yeah. Thank you. Then you'll be able to cash in on the Knox photos. Quick question. Just to get your temperature. This episode blames Mohamed Elfayed for tipping off the paparazzo. Your BFF, Tina Brown, does not think that that's how it went down.

Tina wrote in her book, The Palace Papers, Colon Inside the House of Windsor, hyphen the Truth in the Termoil, what a great title. She accuses Diana of tipping off Mario Brenna. She says, time and time again, Diana chose to invade her own privacy, often for the capricious reason of making the men in her life jealous, the most unforgettable, quote, stolen snap from Diana's last faithful holiday was the famous, quote, kiss, picture of her in a case. Klinch with a bare chested, Doty Fayette, her playboy lover, off the coast of Corsica. It was she who tipped off Italian Lensman, Mario Brenna, to send a taunting message to the real love

of her life, Haznett Khan. And then Jason Fraser, who is the paparato, who is a long history with Diana, who was the one who helped Mario Brennan. Many of them do, yeah. Yeah, negotiate his deals. He said he was like, Diana also called him down there. Like, he corroborates in a different article that I read. He said that Diana was the one who called him down there.

What is your take on this? I think it was probably Diana. And they even have her talk about it in the show. She had relationships with all of the press people who are slightly different than paparazzi, though increasingly they all were just doing the same stuff. Yeah. She knew them my name. She knew their phone numbers.

She read all of their coverage. She interacted with them. And then she said, you know, you're friendly with them. And then they write all these mean things about you. And there's nothing that you can do about it. and her feelings are hurt. So it just seems entirely plausible to me. And another thing you learn from just like us is that, I mean, these people, they work hard,

whether it's a, you know, an allotable type of work that they do. But they do a lot, but they are often tipped off by, if not, the actual celebrity than people in their camp. Like, it's just kind of how it works. And that was an interesting quote I read from one of the, one of the photographers, we'll talk about this in three and four, sort of the way in which the paparazzi was fairly or unfairly blamed for Diana's death. That's obviously like a big thing to talk about. But one of them was saying in an article that I was reading that like,

if Diana's people had been there rather than like, they'll fight people that night, he's like, this wouldn't have happened. They would have told us when and where to go and we wouldn't have had to chase them. We would have just met them there because that was the procedure. You know what I mean? We'll talk about more and more next time about the morality of that one way or another, but I was just sort of like, you know, there was a system and it worked and this is why that system wasn't in place that night or something like that. Right. But, you know, I assume narratively, Mohammed Al-Faed, like, definitely was involved with the press, you know, so it's not like without the realm of possibility, and I think they're doing it narratively in order to kind of be able to establish this

parallel between the queen and, and Mu-mu in terms of how they're, you know, and really like setting up another, like, doomed to fail, Diana marriage. This poor woman can't, you know, like, catch a break. So I think it's fine. And I, maybe his family would disagree, but it doesn't really feel like an unfair representation of the way he was working. But it does absolve it makes her more the hunted sort of victim than was necessarily the case. In contrast, we get this family photo with Charles and the boys.

Yeah. These photos exist. They seem to be taken by a different... I cannot find a real Duncan mirror, so I think this is a fabrication, which is interesting to put up against the real-life Mario Brenna. But these photos exist. They're actually multiple photos setups of Charles

with his little like Shepherds' crook and kilt and the boys in their streetwear. But I just want to shout out Rufus Kampa, who's playing William and this, for somehow managing to make this really awkward pose that Will strikes in one of these photos where he's like sort of scratching under his armpit and like sort of ducking his stuff like that look somewhat plausibly natural. I was like you suddenly understand why that happened.

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. No, I agree. He telegraphs the like the discomfort and haughtiness very well. I vividly remember these photographs. I mean, this is when this is when you and I are of the inappropriate age to be able to say this. This is when Prince Will I am just.

entered the glow-up era. It was really remarkable. I can only tease that my friend Hillary and I for no reason that I can possibly understand through a birthday party for Will one year. And we'll talk about that later. But that is the thing that happened in my life. And I can't explain it. It was for a while there, he really, he looked so much like Diana. That's definitely part of it. Absolutely. Yeah. The landmine metaphor is sort of the last thing we should talk about before we go. as we discussed in our where we left off episode, the crown is never subtle with its metaphors. But even by their standards,

this seemed like a big one in terms of like equating her entering her relationship with Doty or the kiss itself to her stepping on a landmine. What do you want to say about, you tease sort of this charity work that she did in a previous episode, but what do you want to say about like how it was treated here? I guess it's because it was the sort of one

of the last very high profile campaigns that she did. And so that, you know, I've been saying it's three photographs because that photo of her walking through the field with the shield on is incredibly famous. I think it was probably circulated a lot after her death because it was recent. But it is something that I know like a lot about or more so than I know about much of her other charity work besides the AIDS stuff. And I think because of the timing, it also has, like, taken on this, like, metaphor in her biographies as well,

maybe not of, like, the Doty relationship, but just kind of, it is the sign of, like, the life and the career that she could have had. And so has been a sign with, like, extra significance. And Tina Brown even describes it as, like, she was going to, like, she launched a whole new, like, media brand, you know, and she was going to, like, work with a charity for two years.

do a documentary, like put a structure in place. Like she actually had a plan. This was like a great, you know, and so this was this was the first of like a long thing. But, you know, also Prince Harry has since like picked up, if not this exact charity, then, you know, a lot of this work and famously like went back in a documentary to meet some of the people that she met. And in 2019 took the same walk, like in the same like kit. Yeah.

So like, you know, that's fascinating in the way that like. Like, he has also narrativeized it and, you know. 100%. So I agree with you that, you know, it is quite obvious. But also it's like right there, you know, for the, these things actually did happen fairly contemporaneously. They futs with it, you know, some of the times and places like a little bit. But and I like think that is like the real magic of the show of being like, oh, yeah, no, like this was all. pulling all of the strings together character-wise.

I don't think it's a knit worth entirely picking or anything like that, that she was like, that the walk she took that was so famous that gave us those photos that I remember. Yes. From when I was a kid. She did that in January and Angola. This trip is to Bosnia. She was, though, literally in Bosnia when the Kiss photo came out.

So if they're sitting there and doing their research and they're like, what was the reaction to the kiss photo? And they're like, oh, my gosh, Diana's literally in Bosnia when this happens. Oh, the landmines. Oh. we can pull this all together in a classic crown metaphor that is both ham-fisted and yet what else could you possibly like you have to you have to pick the fruit it's right in front of you yeah it's right there um the last thing i want to say about that is i was reading this um

time report from september 1997 so basically like this is i i think this is probably the last we'll hear of the landmine charity so i think it's worth buttoning up here and saying that like it became this cause because it was something that she was literally working on so visibly right before she dies, it then becomes this thing that's associated with her legacy, like with her death. And so this report from time in September 1997 says President Bill Clinton and his wife Hillary had been touched by the Princess of Wales poignant visits to young victims of such minds in Bosnia and Angola a few weeks ago.

After her death, the mine bans treaty being written in Oslo took on the luster of humanitarian memorial to Diana and her cause, right? So it becomes just like inextricable with the saintly aspect of Diana that was part of her whole package. Fascinating woman. Fascinating woman because all of these things exist inside of her. I both believe she called the paparazzi to get a photo of her kissing Doty and then she, you know, is walking landmine fields and meeting victims and stuff like that. all of that's true. So anything else you want to say about these two episodes?

Well, just on the landmine thing for one second, I thought the one cheap shot from the show was the recreation, well, not the recreation, the creation of the press conference. I agree. Where they're getting the realization and like making fun of her in real time. And I think that she was certainly mistreated by the press and like that happened a lot. But it kind of like undercuts what I think was a pretty significant work that she did in it.

You know what I mean? Like, and kind of makes a joke of the landmine stuff. Well, as far as I can tell, that never happened. I was like, I was watching all these video clips of press conferences that she gave in Bosnia and an Angola. And like, in fact, in contrast, I was watching a bunch of like raw unedited footage from those press. I imagine because it happened right before her death. like, you know, this footage because precious.

Yeah. It's her talking to the, she like, she's like, they, this, this one guy was like giving her a bunch of different questions and she's like, oh, I like that one. Ask me that one. So he asks her that one. And she starts and stumbles on her answer like three times until she finally gives him

a take that works. And that was going to be all edited together into one sort of smooth path. So like in contrast to the jeering, mocking, like this is a, this, this press core that's going to be. to be on this trip is different from the paparazzi who are going to be on the boats in the bay in Santropay. And so I think if they had saved that for like when she comes back and gets off the plane or something like that, but like to put it to make it. Yeah. I understand it's just like time and like economy of storytelling. But anyway. Otherwise, oh, you know what? Here's how I wanted to.

I promise we'd go with CGI and we're going to finish with CGI. So the very last shot of season two is recreating a very famous photo of Diana in a blue bathing suit, which is a color I don't think would suit me. She's more of a winter. I'm an autumn in the color stories. Anyway, but she looks great, but it's a very famous photograph for her at the end of a diving board. And like, that's just really bad, CGI. Do you know what I'm saying? It looks really, really bad. And it's the promo photo for like the whole season is like her alone on that diving board in the bathing suit. Yeah. Yeah, and I'm just like, we couldn't get the yacht and diving board for like one day. You know, and general, so I guess the villa seemed to be, like the landscape shots with the villa seem to be CGIed.

I think some of the yacht, so they just like built a land bound yacht and then all the rest of the yacht seems to be Cgied. Is that your impression? Or VFX or whatever. I'm sorry, my tech. No, no, no, it's okay. I need to, I promise, this is my vow to you, I will be closer attention to VFX and 3 and 4. Well, it's just like, I was especially thinking of this. I was distracted by wigs, which is my usual preoccupations. The higgy season.

The helicopters, I think, are real, so they can spring for a helicopter. Yeah. But then, I mean, Succession got a yacht for just one episode, you know? Like, what are we doing? I think there is a yacht. You think there's a real yacht, but they had limited time with it? Or it wasn't in the Mediterranean? It might also be a safety thing because she's very high up.

You know what I mean? Yeah. And it could be location because, and they don't have the backdrop right? Because they are actually recreating a photo. And it might actually be the landscape and the background that is my issue in that final shot rather than the boat itself. How a big, really important follow up from our conversation on the big pick earlier this week. How was everyone's eyebrows? Were all the eyebrows okay?

Yeah. They were looking great. I didn't notice that Elizabeth Dickey as Dibicki as Diana is wearing more makeup, especially on the boat than I associate with real life, Diana. However, I was not up close with her, so maybe she actually was just wearing a lot of makeup. And it might almost be like an age thing because I think Elizabeth Dibke is a bit younger. I think also that they're trying to, in imitating some of the times that Diana did have more makeup on and imitating those looks, It then gets Dibiki looking closer to Diana, even though Diana on the yacht is not wearing a time of makeup. Totally.

That was, okay. Thank you so much for asking. You're welcome. Always love to hear your thoughts and takes on everything. We will be back next week. We sure will. With episodes three and four of the crown. And then we'll take a break.

And then we'll be back in December. That's all I have to say about that. This is a great time chatting with you. I love that we're covering these episodes. So do I? Just fascinating. just fascinating adaptive choices. And just like I will forever treasure the moment that I watched Prince Charles read the letter for persuasion to Camilla at her birthday.

Thank you, Crown Writers, for that. Yes, beautiful stuff. Iconography. All right. This episode was produced by the great Sasha. We will be back next week. I will also be on the feed talking about the curse with Sean Fentasy. And there's other shows coming out.

Fargo is coming back. I'm pretty into murder at the end of the world. We might get some coverage of that. The prestige feed is about to pop all the way off. I know. Your schedule just really got... Very special. Completely booked.

Very special. All right. I'll see you next week. Bye. Bye.