The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘The Crown’ Season 6, Episodes 5-7

Episode Date: December 16, 2023

Jo and Amanda reconvene now that the final six episodes of ‘The Crown’ dropped on Netflix to discuss Episode 5, 6, and 7. They dream-cast Will, Kate, and Harry after talking about the three unknown actors that will be portraying them, then examine what the show is trying to say as it increasingly depicts events we have a vivid collective memory of. Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Amanda Dobbins Producer: Sasha Ashall Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Erica Ramirez, founder of Ili, and hosts of What About Your Friends? A podcast dedicated to the many lives of friendship and how it's portrayed in pop culture. Every Wednesday on the Ringer dish feed, I talk to my best friend, Stephen Othello, and your favorites from within the Ringer and beyond about friendships on TV and movies, pop culture, and our real lives. So join me every Wednesday on the Ringer Dish feed where we try to answer the question TLCS back in the day, What About Your Friends? The Prestige TV podcast feed on Joanna Robinson, joining me today for part one. of the second part of the final season of the crown coverage on this feed.

It is Amanda Dobbins. Joanna, hello. I'm so glad to see you. I'm so glad to have a formal and extended space to talk through all our feelings about these first three episodes. We've been sharing some notes via text via other podcasts that have nothing to do with the crowd. Check out the big picture on Wonka, a film that you and I both enjoyed. But now here we are, and it is time to talk about at least the first three episodes of

Part 1 of Part 2, episodes 5 through 7 of The Crown. Because I should say right now, I have not yet watched episodes 8 through 10. Yeah, Restraint, I admire it. Willsmania, Rouritania, and Alma Mater are the three episodes we're talking about today. We will not spoil, though it's just mostly history, 8, 9, and 10, of the final season of the crown. We've seen some still... I've read some errant headlines

even though I was trying to avoid them, even though once as you note, it's just history. But yeah, as far as episode seven of season six of the crown. Yeah, that's what we're talking through today. And then next week we'll be back with the final three episodes,

our final, the final word, on the final season of the crown from us next week. So that is the plan. Um, we are not going to go episode by episode. We're kind of going to do what we did with the first half of the season, which is almost like a character-based journey. And then I've got some like stray notes about some other thoughts to go through. But one big thing, I kind of want to get our like sort of overview of these first two

episodes under the umbrella of this quote that I read in the telegraphs rather snarky review of the final season of the crown. in which they said about how accurate all of this is, in which The Telegraph wrote, it's creators decided that the only way to maintain interest in well-documented recent history is just a level of fabrication that will leave audiences alternately outraged and exhilarated,

depending on how they view the subject. So we talked about this a bit in the first half how much of a different experience it is to watch a show that is covering events that we are so intimately familiar with. Right. And how in many ways that has pushed Peter Morgan and his company to put things in like, you know, the ghosts or visions of dead people. You know, we're like pushing sort of form boundaries in certain ways to sensationalize things and then just introducing, you know, outright fabrications, which was always part of the crown, but maybe increasingly so. So either jumping off of that or anything else you want to talk about, what is.

your big picture on the first three. So it's funny that the Telegraph review is bumping up against the fabrication. And I understand that, you know, many people and especially many people who like to give interviews or write pieces about how outrage they are about the crown, focus on the things that it invents. I find myself getting increasingly frustrated with the insistence on pure recreation and the insistence on just remaking what we saw in the tabloids. And so, like, I, to be honest, I, I am now having a hard time, I, too, like everyone else watching this, and having a hard time separating this as a TV show from the real, from the real world, just because the closer we get to real events, the more that we remember this stuff.

And you and I remember a lot, perhaps for like various reasons, but we're getting to, These episodes start in 1997, and I think go until 2001, the three that we're talking about. So, like, we were sentient beings who were, like, reading the tabloids and we remember a lot. So I, too, have a hard time watching it as a TV show, but I find myself so wanting to watch it as a TV show or at least wanting to watch it as, like, a drama, like a dramatic. And I mean that in, like, a theater-bound written idea, like, theme-based. experience as opposed to what kind of like feels a lot like weird soap opera. Yeah. It's really increasingly like a lifetime movie.

And it like really bums me out to say it. But that is how I feel. I don't know. Do you are you there? Do you mind the fabrications? Well, I don't, I don't mind the fabrications, but more than the fabrications, I don't mind going down sort of nicheer corners of the store. Like we're going to talk about in Ruritania, there's a whole sequence where various esoteric members of the royal staff sort of talk about what they do.

I was like leaning in for that. I was like, it was the best part of the three episodes. Even as it was like, and I was like, oh, this is the crown coming to life. Even if it's like a deeply small sea, like conservative portrayal and defense of like the monarchy. Yeah. And like traditional like little England basically. Totally. But I agree with you. I thought that was the best part of these three episodes or in the first half that we talked about, you know, the learning about like the royal photographer, you know, like those little sort of nooks and crannies of the crown, which I think the show was had much more space for in previous seasons. Whereas now I think it's just it's possible that Peter Morgan, et cetera, have been, I don't want to say seduced, but I understand why they would say. think, oh, once Diana gets here, that's all anyone's going to care about. And now we're in the

Will & Kate era, and that's all anyone's going to care about. But that's really not why. I mean, and the difference between Will and Kate and Diana, and we'll talk about this for the most of this episode, probably. Well, yeah. Is that the portrayals of Diana by Emma Corrin, Elizabeth DePickey were so compelling that, like, I didn't mind or maybe even notice it as much versus what we get from the Well and Kate story stuff here. And I think that's true across the board. I think one of the major appeals of the show that we weren't, like, quite as conscious of or that we were thinking about it in a different way because it was like past iterations of people that we know and things that we weren't around for. But like, it was a lot of fun to see really great actors doing these roles, right?

So you had Claire Foy, you had Matt Smith, you had Olivia Coleman, you had Tobias Menzies, you had Hallibon Carter, you had Vanessa. Kirby, you know? It's like down the cast list, just absolute, like, amazing and often like well known, you know, and if not well known, then total fines in Vanessa Kirby, like entirely launching like a like a mega career, in my opinion. She's absolutely wonderful in Napoleon, a movie that I did not mind as much as everyone else. But just like real heavyweights, you know, showing up to play characters that, like, I'm sorry to keep relying on the Shakespeare references. And, like, I do not think that the crown is Shakespeare, especially season six. But, like, in the same way that it's, like, a big deal to see, like, you know, Denzel Washington play Macbeth or, you know, Ethan Hawke, like, play Hamlet.

These, like, these characters have, like, outside associations. And so it's like, ooh, it's a. exciting to see someone's interpretation of something. And that brings us to the new generation of crown stars. So we're going to start with Will and Kate and Harry, you know, with like general love and respect for these people. But here's something really interesting I discovered. Because the first thing that Amanda texted me about these episodes is like how wrong she thinks they got Will specifically. The casting is all wrong. They just everyone is miscast. So we got to play. we decided to play like casting director for at least Will and Kate.

I don't know if you did it for Harry as well, but I did it for Will and Kate. And I will confess to you, Amanda, like this is my idea to do sort of just like based off of what we were talking about the big pick yesterday. And I was, I texted you was like, should we dream cast this? Yeah. Yeah, great. And then I lost like many hours of my life on this project because I was like determined to get it right.

But something I discovered in that journey was, and I didn't know this. So Nina Gold, who I think is the greatest casting director working. is the casting director for the crown for the first four seasons of the crown. Oh, no. And then Robert Stern, who was working with her on those first four seasons, took over for five and six.

And so I don't think like the likes of like Amelda Stanton or Jonathan Price, and I'm sure that was all part of the bigger conversation. But I think he's the one leading the charge on Will and Kate and Harry and Bertie Carvel as Tony Blair and like, you know, all the stuff that we're that we're kind of bumping on, I would say, and something that Nina Gold is known for, because as you mentioned, we get the combination of like the likes of Helena Bonn Carter with Josh O'Connor or Emma Corrin.

And something that Nina Gold is known for because she is the casting director behind Game of Thrones and, like, the recent Star Wars films and just like sort of anything you like with a big sprawling, you know, European cast is probably Nina Gold. If you watch something, you're like, wow, that Cassie was incredible. Like, Mead of Gold will probably be in the credits. She is such a keen eye for emerging talent, and she usually plucks them out of the London theater scene. And so that's where a lot of these people come from. Ed McVeigh, who plays Will, Meg Bellamy, who plays Kate, and Luther Ford, who plays Harry, didn't have any experience. Yeah. They went the total unknown route.

Not just like we've never seen them, like, no. Nobody's seen them, right? Ed McVeigh is straight out of drama school, and then the other two haven't really acted professionally at all. And so sometimes that works. And in this case, I was going to say, so in the Crown's defense, that is also the story of Paul Muskell, as I understand it, before normal people. He had done some state, like, like Dublin stage stuff. Sure, but like that was like his first, like, you know, big thing. And that, for sure. And that, that was a fine. That worked out and probably really well. On this one, it did not. It just, it just, it just, it, just it just doesn't it doesn't fit again i think it's like i think it's both miscasting and i also think

there's some execution stuff in how they handle the timing and the people and these actors having to cover like a range of ages that is just sort of impossible but like not just eight years years from 15 to 23 you know that like that's from and harry from what 11 to or 12 to like 20 or something. But you from the very beginning were hypothesizing like, oh, I think there will be a time jump, right? And that's why there were the four episodes. And then we get a break and then they've cast someone new.

And it's like they didn't. And that to me like was insane and so jarring, especially the Harry character where he is like supposed and presented in episode four at like at Diana's funeral is like still, you know, basically a child. Like and he was so young, which. makes, you know, there's no degrees of like heartbreak and something like that. But that one was so tough. And like literally two weeks later, he's just, you know, a scam.

Doing marijuana. You know. Yeah. That seems like a real unforced error, not on the part of the actors, but like on the part of Peter Morgan. Like I just, why? Why are we doing it that way? So we're going to start with Will's.

And I think it's something that's very true is that with Will's mania, which largely deals with the immediate aftermath of Diana's death for William as he goes back to school and also this Beatles mania-wills mania-esque sort of girl screaming in the street a la over Harry Styles or something like that for for Will. And Amanda and I now have to like reckon with our own role in Will's mania as as teens. I was there. I had the people magazines cut out and taped on my bunk at camp. Like, you know. Basketball. Well, I've been saving this story. I don't think I told these story. I really wanted. to save it for the podcast. So hopefully I were starting myself. But when I was a teenager, my friend Hillary and I threw a birthday party for Will. And that was like kind of a joke. June 30th? It's late June, right? It is definitely June. And I will know that forever because we threw this party. We invited, like, we had like a really tight group of friends who would always like get together and watch movies together. And it was like all guys and we were the only girls.

And so we like threw this party and we made all of our guy for. friends come over. It's very cute. And they were like, and they were like, we don't understand what this is. And we're like, we just got, we just got like Union Jack streamers and made a butt cake. Like, it's really not a big deal. And then we watched royal movies and by royal movies, I think I mean like ever after in the Princess Bride.

And we were just sort of like, this is just what we're doing. Yeah. Right? Like, this is just, this is our loose. That's as weird as it's ever got, but like it's still a little, a little, a little, I see myself. I would never scream in the street for him. But like, you were showing Sean a photo of Will at this time.

It was the one that you had the postcard of. Yeah, exactly. It's really, and... It's iconic. To be fair, I believe it's from his first day at college, so he's a little bit older. And again, it's just really hard when you're supposed to play like 15 and also 18, 19, 20. You know, like, physically, there's a lot of change. Emotionally, confidence-wise, there's a lot of change.

Also, the way the character is written and what this show seems to be interested in, if it's actually interested, which is a thing we can discuss, is like the interior life of William to the extent that there is one. And at least portrayed on the show, that's, I don't know the real guy. You know, what can I say? We don't know. No. And his discomfort with being a public figure and the chasm between what you and I were projecting

on to these absolutely beautiful photographs and the real person. Right. And so we can acknowledge, even though we were in it, we acknowledge how like a bizarre fixation that was. I'm not judging us. We were the exact right age. And like he was a just scorchingly beautiful, just like an incredibly beautiful person did look a lot like his mother, which is something that they talk about in the show. This actor doesn't look like much like him, but like whatever. And then like we were projecting this sort of poor sad boy. Someone needs to protect him and help him sort of. all the stuff that the episode is trying to give us. But, like, in terms of the performance, we're going to talk about, like, physicality, but in terms of the performance from Ed McVeigh, there are moments as will, I would say specifically in the interactions with Imelda Stanton as Elizabeth, where I'm sort of, like, seeing it and into it and understanding it. And then there are moments, like, there's a sequence where he's just shopping by himself

with his bodyguard in this, like, brightly lit, you know, convenience store almost location. and then eating cup of noodles and watching Big Brother by himself, that I'm like, why is this here? The only reason to show us this, show like this, the solitude, isolation, it's not all glamour for this poor Prince sequence. But what I need in that is a performance like Josh O'Connor's, because they're not showing us his face in any of those shots. He's just like in the distance.

And I'm like, why am I not seeing what he's feeling in this moment? Well, Joanna, there may be a reason for that. And I just, it's, I, I am not a person who is able to look natural or remote in front of a camera. There is a reason that I'm primarily an audio experience sort of person. Josh O'Connor has an uncanny, like, amazing generational ability to say nothing and communicate emotion. Not everyone can do it. Not even all great actors or movie stars can do it. So it's not having any, it says nothing about this person's ability, but like, can you,

like being silent and emoting, Claire Foy could do it. Ed McVeigh is not doing it in the scenes where he's asked to do that. And it's like, and it's starkest when he has sort of like his first big standoff with Charles, aka Dominic West, who I got to say, like, we'll talk about Charles's edit for sure, but Dominic West like lights out, unbelievable, in my opinion. I agree. And like the complexity of like, you know, being a parent and being also, you know, hated by everyone for all of the things that you did to contribute to this situation and trying your best and not knowing how to do anything and not having any, you know, parental fatherly experience of your own or motherly for that matter to draw on. He's incredible. And, you know, I understand that the wills in that episode is supposed to be like a surly teenager. it's a very uneven showdown. It just is.

So did you, what did you do with the Let's Dreamcast? The Reast cast, okay. So I've got three. Now, another thing that's really difficult is obviously because of the age that you're working with here, you really do need someone young. And everybody is like much older. And so my people are all probably a little bit older than you, like they couldn't play 15. They could play 19.

I had this problem. I have like one that could play young and then two that could play older, but it's really hard to bridge the whole gap, which is something I'm sure that the casting director bumped up against. And again, so I pretty much, I blame that on the decision to not do a time jump or to, you know, acknowledge puberty. But anyway, okay, so I've got three. Do you want my best one first?

Yeah. Okay. My best one, this came to me. like a vision 30 minutes ago while I was watching a BuzzFeed feature that I didn't know exists, which is where celebrities do a video interview while playing with puppies. Oh, yes. You've never seen that? I had never seen it.

You have hours waiting for you. I'm so excited. Well, let me tell you, I don't know whether anyone can live up to the cast of Iron Claw playing with puppies. Okay. And Harris Dickinson. I was looking at Harris Dickinson. He's older. He's 27, but like, I think he could at least do college.

And he's unbelievable. In Ironcloth, he's great in everything, in everything, and so versatile. And has that thing where he doesn't talk and you can, he can express a lot of different conflicted emotions. So I think, and also, you know, I don't know that he looks that. much like Will, but he's tall and has like that certain... If you give him the right, if you give him the right hair, I think we could get there. He knows what's doing in front of a camera, you know?

I kept coming back to him and I ultimately decided I thought he looked a little too old, but my best pick is also a little too old, so why not? My best pick is, and I actually don't know how to pronounce his last name, Nicholas Galitzine, who was in red, white, and royal blue and bottoms. I have to reject it. I don't know that I, red, white and blue was like a real tough sit for me. I agree. I didn't think he was the problem with it.

And I really, I really liked him in bottoms. He was good at bottoms. He was way better in bottoms than he is in red, white and royal blue. And he is British. So the accident thing was like a sticking point for me. But anyway, I, I, it's a tough assignment. What's your next thing? No, I like it.

He's also the star of that, the, what is it? the idea of you. Do you know about this? Which is like the romance novel, um, sensation that is basically based on what if I, Amanda Dobbins started dating Harry Styles. Um,

I think it's like a 40 year old like single mom. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and the movie is starring Anne Hathaway as me. And, um, by the way,

I've never, I've never, I know, always are there. I have not read this book, but friends of mine. are very passionate about it. So Anne Hathaway is playing the woman of a certain age.

And Nicholas Gazzeltine is playing the Harry Styles character. So I have already put him as like the Harry Style stand in. So I'm like, I don't know if he can also take on Will. But it's a good idea. And we're in the same sort of ballpark. Mine is another, mine is another slightly two old British actor who I think is wonderful. Connor Swindells. Oh, I love him.

He's so wonderful. And he was like... I don't think he looks anything like... So what? He's tall. He's charming. He's wonderful. He's like, I think, one of the best young actors that exists.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I was also trying to mind the cast of sex education. Yeah. Because I was like, I was like, I was like, it's weird to try to cast this because I'm not, you know, given that I am older, I am not exactly up on like every up and coming British team. Yeah, I mean, it's like telling that neither of us could find anyone under the age of, like, basically 30. I found one teen. So, but it wasn't easy.

But, and I was also, like, sex education is a good cast look at it. I was looking at, like, Masters of Air, the upcoming. I was like, what are these, like, large ensemble? Put a pin in that. Boy, boys in the boat. Like, what are we doing? Okay. Okay, great.

My number two, I would say, is Felix Mallard. He's 25. He's Australian, but I think that counts. If it's Commonwealth, I think it counts. And he is in a Netflix show that is not good called Ginny and Georgia, but he is really good in it. It's very popular, though. Is he almost like too famous in areas that aren't our area of interest? I just think there's, like, not really that overlap between the two.

And he's just like... Yes, I think so. And he's so... He's 25, so it's not that weird for me. He's very beautiful. I was trying to, like, who is so arrestingly beautiful in the way that Will was? And I think this guy is... It might almost be too beautiful.

Too beautiful. Okay. Yeah. Okay. But maybe that's like me projecting current will on to... You know, I'm just like these cheekbones are like too chiseled, but people's faces change over time. Don't I personally know it. Anyway, my number three, speaking of masters in the air, listen, he's way too old and also American.

American. But what is... you'd be thrilled to have Austin Butler on the screen? I love how you were like, is yours too famous? Here's Austin Butler. Here's a recent Oscar nominee, Austin Butler. We know he has a facility with voices. Yes. He knows his way around Anne accent, for sure. We know that he's blonde and we know he can hold the camera, you know? So I would have enjoyed it. I like, at least that would have been like going for it. You know what I'm saying? which is sort of the fun. If we're going to do it, let's do it.

I don't actually think this is a good idea, but I thought it was funny to say on a podcast. That's great. It's sort of what started us down here is like you were talking about this yesterday, and I was like, Austin Bellar's an insane choice, but can we do better?

But also, I like that for you. Okay, my actual teen that I am submitting is a 19-year-old Louis Partridge, who was in the Annola Holmes films, and it is, I literally just now found out dating Olivia Rodriguez, which I didn't know.

Wow. But I also just learned this via the Google image, the first Google image result, which is a cosmopolitan article from one day ago announcing that Olivia Rodriguez and Louis Partridge. This is like, you know the scene in May, December when she's looking at the casting things for, I mean, this is like the hopefully not that upsetting version of this, but I'm just like, what's going on here? What am I looking at?

But okay. Are you no? It's a hard no for you? Yeah, no, I could see it. I mean, I don't know whether this person can handle, like, the face-off with all of the giant actors. I just don't think it could be worse than what happens. I know.

Well, should we talk about the Jonathan Price scene? Let's do it. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound terseptide may be able to help. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help. adults with obesity or some adults with overweight who also have weight-related medical problems to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5

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What do you want to say? I mean, you made this outline, and you are as outraged in the outline than I am as I am in person. I, like, so towards the end of the episode of Will's Mania, after Charles and and William have a fight, Philip, for some reason, is dispatched to, like, smooth things over. And a thing that they do to set this up is have the Jonathan Price, Philip, look at old footage, including, like, home video footage and letters,

which then becomes absolutely glorious black and white footage of Matt Smith as young Charles playing on the beach with a, as young Philip playing with, with tiny, you know, a tiny version of Charles. I know that you bring, you know, like a Doctor Who enthusiasm to what's going on on the screen. I bring a, that is one of the hottest most charismatic people I've ever seen in my life thing to the screen. So it's all valid, I think.

And it's really, like, I guess that's the point, right? Like age, time, you know, it's an older character looking. It's like coming for us all. But for me, it did highlight what is missing from the current incarnation of Philip. And not just the incredible physical beauty, which is quite striking. But I was like, oh, yeah, remember when you believed all of these characters? I don't like, Jonathan Price is a great actor. And also, he is like currently killing it on slow horses.

So this is not an indictment of Jonathan Price as an actor. It's an indictment of the way Philip is written. It's interesting because I was reading that interview with Robert Stern, who's the current casting director, and he was talking about the iterations of Philip. And he was talking about, like, we had Young, Brush, Bold, Philip and Matt Smith. We had Tobias Menzies who, like, goes through this breakdown. And then we have the sort of, like, more emotionally vulnerable Philip in the final years. And I was like, I get that. Like, there's a scene where Philip is watching Charles and Will reconcile and Price is trying to give us, like, 90 different emotions on his face and all of that sort of stuff.

And I'm just like, but that's not the kind of actor he is either. I, exactly. And I just don't like this Philip at all. And even if I'm not supposed to like him, I'm just not that interested in him. And I was genuinely outraged in the chess scene where Philip tries to talk well into saying that the person he's really mad at is Diana.

I was like, it's like even, even if the grand work were laid for the character and the interpretation of the character to do that scene. British people just don't understand therapy that much. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, I do not. I just...

Well, at least the Royals definitely don't. Absolutely. No. We, that is no. Even though, like, probably that is like some great and perceptive intervention, or at least, you know, an interesting theory of a character put onto the screen. You know, like, that's interesting. It is.

I'm sure that there could be a cool psychological brief written about it. I don't think that this guy was breaking that out with his teenage grandson. And I just think that, like, what he says there in that scene, if you wrote that, if you're Peter Morgan or someone else and you write that down, I'm like, that, what you just wrote is a great concept. But you don't execute it by just saying it, especially not these characters. It's just, it doesn't work for me at all. And then the larger question, this spans both Will's Mania and Alma Mater is,

like, is Will just a boring person? The show itself calls it out, right? Like, Harry calls him boring, right? So is Will just a boring person? And then just like, how much is Peter Morgan at all interested in the Will and Kate of it all is a big question I have? Because, like, does he feel like he has to do it? Because the prompt for this whole experiment was, examine the line of succession. So examine Elizabeth, examine Charles, and examine Will. And, like, he, he, you know, Peter Morgan has said openly, like, I'm not that interested in the Harry's. Or, you know, which is too bad because I think the Margaret's and the Ans at least got like a much more interesting treatment than this Harry has. So like, I'm not that interested in the Harry's. So he's got to focus on Will, but his Will just like not good fodder for an elevated British drama, you know?

Yeah. I don't have the answer. I don't have the answers. I have opinions, but like it does. It is. We don't know him. I'm not saying, we don't know him. We might be the most fascinating person in the world. And also, like, I don't like totally know how I would answer it. You know, I've been giving a lot of, well, I wouldn't have done this. But it is a puzzle. I don't think that he is as interested in Will and Kate as he is in Elizabeth,

but probably feels like he has to do it. Yeah, because, you know, this, you know, it's there in the title. It's about the crown. But really, for many seasons, it was a show about Elizabeth. And it was the test case for it was a movie about Elizabeth and a play that was her going through all the prime ministers. And so it was about her really. And it was like a show about England, you know? Yes.

Or a show about the UK. And sorry, that's very rude. One of these episodes takes place in Scotland. And the Women's Institute we learned was founded in Wales. So I want to talk more about the Women's Institute. I did some reading. Oh, amazing. But so there's not a lot to explore about any of those ideas or even the ideas about, like, really

monarchy and society when you're talking about like two teenagers who do seem like a little boring. The other thing, though, is that there's a very memorable line in the coronation episode. in season one, smoke and mirrors, which is one of my favorite episodes. And they cut between, like, the actual coronation

in Westminster Abbey and then the Duke of Windsor narrating, like, throwing a party in Paris and narrating what's happening for all of his French friends, like, you know,

and, like, being too cool for school. And he's, like, take an ordinary woman of, like, you know, regular intellect, like,

and basically, like, calls her boring. And there has, and there has always, been this threat, like when she has to like learn more about history because all she wants to talk about is dogs at dinner. Like there has been a presentation of that character throughout as someone who's like pretty limited, whether she's limited as a mother, whether she's like limited as her interest, whether she's, you know, and they. But has an interesting interior life.

You know, there's just like something. Or the show is interested in her interior life. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. That's a really good, that's a really good cop. I hadn't thought about the fact that Elizabeth is also probably a little boring. And nonetheless, the show has made her a subject of fascination for me. Let's talk about... Well, because of circumstance, right? It's like because she actually has been the sovereign. And so, like, a lot of interesting things.

And how does, like, this rando who happens to be the Queen of England, you know, cope with that? Like, the situation is interesting. But also, in Ruritania, the second episode of this last episode. that we're talking about here, which pitches, you know, monarchy versus the labor party, Elizabeth versus Tony Blair, all of that. There's this, you know, Sherry Blair has this great conversation with Tony and they're talking about, throughout they're talking about this idea of like the Catholic Church and modernizing. And once the Catholic Church took like all the like strange esoteric trappings away, the magic

and the mystique was gone and people stopped, you know, attending the Catholic Church. And so the comp there is like if the monarchy gets rid of its like strange and esoteric pomp and circumstances, then people won't be able to appreciate it as an institution the way that they have for, so it won't be able to have the strength of the institution that has had for centuries. That is an interesting argument. It also seems to feed into a larger thesis of this show over the course of many seasons, which is under scrutiny, which happened via the media because we've been talking so much

about like the media and these like last, I would say, say four seasons, but throughout because Claire Foy's Elizabeth is also dealing with, like, television for the first time and like, you know, her coronation, you know, being televised, etc. But that encroachment of the media's access, all of our access to the lives of these royals, just makes them more ordinary. And so then makes the whole institution feel ridiculous because we, you know, I would hope that I would feel like it was ridiculous anyway, because I'm not a monarchist, but it's certainly ridiculous when you hear to think of Charles sitting as a king and also know that we've heard him talk about wanting to be a tampon. You know what I mean?

Like those things just can't coincide. And so Elizabeth could get away with being the monarch for so long because when she started, we didn't have that access to her. And Charles, unfortunately, you know, and this is another thing that the royal family is familiar with, like something that I that was so interesting about Harry's depiction here and reading, like, reading interviews with the official researcher on the show and stuff like that, is this idea of, like, you called out Spare as a frustrating read, and I haven't read it, so I just, I just 100% believe you. It's a fascinating work of nonfiction, and I just found the narrator in it to be very annoying, and I didn't like spending time with him.

Yeah. Well, but, you know, he, like, he works with a ghost writer and, You know, how he just, like, what can you say? I was irritated while reading that book. But I think that it was interesting listening, you know, Dominic West said he gobbled up spare and it informed his performance or, you know, the actor playing, Luther Ford playing Harry said he listened to it mainly like the audiobook mainly to get like the voice. But like, of course, it was like sort of influenced by listening to it.

Whereas the researchers were like, we didn't give it much credence, except for for where it shored up something that we already had corroborated elsewhere. And the main thing that they, the main takeaway that seemed to have sort of transferred over into the show is this idea of Harry as this media sacrificial lamb that they would, that they would genuinely throw Harry stories to the media to get the media off of Will because Will is the air and Harry isn't. And so to keep that as much of a mystery as they can around Will, they're exposing Harry. That's the, that's the trade.

That's a terrible bargain. But so that means they're aware that any media scrutiny at all is bad for the public's image of a royal leader of the air. Yes. You know? Yeah. Well, I was going to say, like about that larger point, it is a perceptive and true point in the show. And I've also watched this episode or a version of this episode like five times. Like, oh, the royalty in the monarchy is just like a mystery.

And when you take away the magic, there's nothing left. like Olivia Coleman got one. It was when they do like the documentary. And then everyone's like, oh, this is a bad idea. And it was never aired again. You know, there's the Claire Foy one. Yeah. When it's like a magazine writer, Mouthin'off, remember?

And then they like have to open the garden party. And then the queen mother is sitting there being like, oh, no, there's a builder or whatever she's like mad about. So what's so interesting to me and I understand how, you know, this is a show. show that it is interested in the monarchy overtime and media and perception is, as all these episodes remind us, such a huge part of it. So reexamining it makes a lot of sense. But, you know, what's funny is still that for both of us, the most engaging piece of television was when they were just recreating the magic and the mystery and like giving you the swans guy. And that was like so beautiful. And there was like an emotional connection that all these people had. So it's, you know,

It's very funny when the mission of the show is like pretty, or the mission of the creator is like pretty at odds with the medium itself, you know? Like it's just, it's good TV. I think the swan, and it's not just a swan guy, right? It's like the napkin folder. It's like all the people, the herb struer, all those folks. But like the, I think the best thing in these, and I will say I have seen the back three. And I think there's like two actually really great episodes in the back three. Oh, good. Okay, that's good.

You know, there's a lot to look forward to. I read the description of episode eight, and I just can't wait. I'm so excited. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I'm saving that for Saturday night. Put the kid to bed. Crank it up.

Episode eight is my favorite, and I do think the finale is quite strong. Okay, good. So that's what we have to look forward to. But I think in these three episodes, the highlight for me is I really like the Tony and Sherry Blair like kitchen conversation. I really liked him telling the queen, hey, Listen, aren't all these things ridiculous? And we as the viewer are like, those are ridiculous.

Yeah. Get rid of them. How easy. So we just like go on this journey because then we watch her and her, you know, secretary, like, sit down to interview all these people. And then we're like, well, you can't get rid of swan guy? How could you ever get rid of swan guy? And so the TV show takes us on the self-same journey and it works. It's TV magic.

It's wonderful. I really loved it. So, yeah. What do you want to tell me about the Women's Institute? Or anything else. Well, yeah, and the Tony Blair of it all. It is funny that the other half of this episode about the, you know, Herbstruer is about Tony Blair.

And it like a major international policy achievement by Tony Blair, which I thought it was, again, I haven't seen the back three. So I don't know whether WMDs come up. And it's not just that they're showing like Tony Blair as like a successful international leader, but they have him like manipulating Clinton. on the phone. And Clinton is never shown, but everyone does the accents,

which is actually pretty funny. And even like the episode starts with a nightmare sequence. I'd like an Elizabeth nightmare sequence where it's Tony Blair. Tony Blair is crowned king in her nightmare and she's still around. And it ends with this joke of the choir singing the labor party anthem, which I, you know, I googled. I was like, oh, what is that song? Because again, I'm American.

And then I was like, oh, so. It's just there don't stop believing, you know? But like more ridiculous. Like I, did you, did you watch the video, the like, the infamous labor party ad? It's so funny. It's really, really bad. But it's like, rumors is a perfect album and I can't listen to Don't Stop Believe in without imagining Bill Clinton, like, sort of awkwardly dancing. So I just thought that was like a, in terms of what history they include and not include, that to me was notable as a.

sense of like how you're supposed to feel about Tony Blair or how they're positioning him right now. Well, it was like this sort of ominous thing looming where it's like Bush wins the election. And he's talking about like, oh, well, I guess I'll work with him. So like we know because we know history that like that's his doom. Right. That he is like headed towards. Right. But I think in terms of like what we include, what we don't include, I thought it was really

interesting that we talked about this when we discussed the first four episodes this season. that you and I are big fans of the film. The queen of Michael Sheen's performance is Tony Blair, and Tony Blair, both in that film and in real life history, was so involved, actively involved in the post-Diana death, sort of holding the people together and pulling the monarchy, like kicking and screaming into this larger conversation and larger grief. And they excised him from that story, probably because. Peter Morgan's already done that story.

And so he's like, well, what was Charles's role? It was sort of like Charles is more in that role. But without that piece, it really does a disservice to telling the story of why Tony Blair was as popular as he was at this time. Yeah. Right. And so then they try to recreate it through the queen showing a sudden interest in focus groups, which this is like, whatever. This is deep enough in the podcast. It's like, I don't think I really believe in focus groups.

Not to like, just like, you don't or you do. I don't. Just like as a concept, it seems pretty flawed. It seems like gathering all the internet commenters, you know, because it's like the people who are willing to go into a room and spend time are like, you know, the most disgruntled among us, you know? Like, you know what I'm saying? Anyway. So in an upcoming like ringer meeting when they discuss maybe putting some of our shows and focus groups are going to say like, how dare you subject podcasters to the whim? of marketing men.

I was like every time, so when I first started working on the internet, my parents didn't know not to read the comments. And they would get so distressed, you know, like on my behalf. They were like, oh, my gosh. And so it took me a very long time to explain to them like that you just don't read the comments. And like what finally got through, I was like, do you know literally anyone in your life ever who has logged on to the internet to leave a comment?

And they were like, no, we don't. And so that's just not representative. I know it's supposed to be, but I don't think it is. I mean, I will say, I know people have logged on to make a comment. As do I. Not a negative, like, vitriolic comment. You know what I mean? I don't know anyone who's like.

I have a good friend who often leaves New York Times comments, but her shared New York Times account is under her wife's name. So her wife just gets an email just like every time it's like, you have commented on X, Y, Z. And I'm just like, well. I'm just like, what? know. It's really, really special.

And then she, like, takes a screenshot of it. It sends it to me and is like, oh, she's at it again. Anyway, really good stuff. Yeah, so we just get some PowerPoint. It's, like, funny to watch the royal family look at a PowerPoint. But, you know. Oh, yeah. Like, enjoying Margaret and the Queen Mother's reactions, like, pretty phenomenal comedy stuff.

And it must be said that, like, Anne and Margaret and the Queen Mother are responsible for, like, most of the laughs in this all amazing stuff. Really amazing stuff. Really good stuff. Anything else you want to say? Oh, the Women's Institute. Okay. So Tony Blair tries to go speak to the women of Middle England and

it really backfires even though he is singing the hymn at the top of his lungs, which I did think was very funny. I don't know that I myself would fit in at the Women's Institute personally. I've learned that it's really craft-based these days. And I'm not a crafter.

No, I enjoy a lot of domestic pursuits, honestly, but I'm not very good with my hands. So that's a real thing. They also seem pretty rule-focused in a way that's uptight for me. But I did learn that until her death, the queen went to like the local chapter of her Women's Institute every year when she was in residence at Sandringham. So that's- I kind of love that. That is pretty cute.

And I thought the species she gave is very endearing. I have to say that a Meldeson in these three episodes, you know, especially in Hartania, there's something happening where I am like more emotionally invested in her. Well, I think they're writing her way differently. If anything, it's sort of like character whiplash. But now, especially when she gets to do like granny and just kind of, you know, slightly. But isn't that, like that's, you know, my mom, I would say, not a great mom. by all reports, a great-grandmother.

Right. You know, and that it's often the case that, like, people weren't great at parenting are great at being grandparents. Or just... Also, the relationship between grandparent and child, it's just less complicated. It's a different set of expectations. It's really... It's smoothed a lot of things out in our family as well.

But it helps, uh, often, I think, open up another layer of tenderness or emotionality or whatever in certain people. And you could see that with Elizabeth. But also, she's funnier. than all the other Elizabeths have been, like, in the speech, like, the speech she gives to the Women's Institute is, like, genuinely funny. Right. And so that's... That's not fair.

Claire, Foy made a blowjob joke once. Or maybe it was Matt Smith, but they were involved in it. You're right, and you were right to say it. Yeah. So thank you for your staunch defense. Okay. All right. Episode three. All right.

It's Kate Middleton time. Here comes Kate. Here's the positives I'm going to say about this. I think Eve best as... Carol Middleton as her mother is one of my favorite performances of the season. And that's not just like my House of the Dragon bias talking. I just think Eve Best is great and imbues this woman with like that nuance that we say we feel is lacking in some of these other performances. So I immediately, this styling is very noticeable. The attention to detail in recreating like the Buckleberry

mom is very spot on. And I at first was like, wow, this is like, this is aggressive there why are they I mean I you know the the vest and the boots are really my style but they're nice boots it's not even that they look bad it's just like so it's like a caricature of a person I was like wow they're they like are being very aggressive towards carol middleton and then I did some more google imaging and I was like oh this is accurate this is just it this is exactly like what it is it's exactly like what it is it's sort of like a housewives of like of the is it the home counties is that what those are called I don't know I'm sorry to all the British people listening.

But there is a slight real housewives element to what they're bringing here that turns out everybody else has the same impression of Carol. Yes, we've got Katie Nichol, who is VF's royal correspondent and also Tina Brown, who, as we've talked about Tina Brown a lot, you and I, uncovering the crown. But Tina Brown wrote the palace papers. Katie Nichol wrote Kate the Future Queen. And in both, they're like, Carol Middleton was definitely driving the bus on this sort of campaign. question is how much was Kate aware of what was going on? This episode, Alma Mater seems to think like Kate innocent, right? Or Kate just cottoning on after the fact or something like that. I don't know that that's the most interesting portrayal of the Kate character, but more importantly,

I just don't think the will they won't they of Kate and Will is at all interesting. And it's not just that we know that they will. It's just I just don't. don't feel like they're, I don't care at all if they do. And, um, and so all of this just feels boring to me, unfortunately. You called it gossip girl and a text to me and I kind of agree with you, you know, except gossip girl is sometimes great. So, you know, right, because it's playing it for like the over the topness. Some of that is just, it's kind of like young people in a fairly wealthy situations moving around emotionally without like a huge amount of emotion telegraphed, which, again, they're British.

I agree that it's very boring. Part of it is because there is, there are no stakes. There's no tension. Number one, it's history. Number two, I don't know if I'm really picking up on their character chemistry. I think that the Kate Middleton character is certainly just like, just a boring person. and that's maybe the point and also the point

that the show is trying to to communicate. And like that's, it's one of those things where it's like probably she just seems like a nice person and that's fine. That's great in real life

and is very boring television and contrasts dramatically with the posh girl that William dating is first who I believe is a fictional character. Yes, she is. But that shit is so funny. The feather vest that she is wearing,

the true religion jeans, the early 2000s were a true. truly mortifying time to be alive. And also, she is, she's like straight out of this souvenir, but with a lot of caffeine injected. And it's so good. She's wonderful. And that's really funny. Yeah. And what's funny, what's funny about this? Like, because I was also like, is this a real person or not? And that took me down the list of like all the women that will dated. And so the fact that he dated, like, I don't know, It's like 10 of them before Kate. And this makes it seem like he's a sad, lonely loser who had one wild and crazy girlfriend

and then dated Kate, which is not the fact. You know, it's like, I would be much more interested in this real Will who, like, actually, you know, dated a bunch of women. And what is that like as a young prince? I don't know. This just seems like the most boring version of Will and Kate, who might just be boring people to begin with. But to your point, Elizabeth might be a boring person, but they made her very interesting for

many seasons. And like, benefiting by bouncing off of someone like the younger versions of Philip, you know what I mean? Like, it's at least not like two kind of boring people in a relationship. But like, yeah, it's, it's just not doing it for me at all. Will and Kate. No. St. Andrews seems nice. Or at least whatever CGI they had driving in along the coast. It did remind me of our favorite episode when he's all, when Charles is arriving in a Wales. I thought it was really funny that Will was reading Catcher in the Rye in college. Yeah. College text.

Again, again, we're American. I don't know what the syllabus is at Eaton. You know, it's probably not, like, not as core, but it's like, that's a very funny thing to be reading, like, while you're studying art history and you're like 20-something and going to be the king of England. Like, lull, I laughed. And Leslie Manneville is just, when they keep cutting back to her, I can't remember what it was this time. Oh, oh, when he's reading his grades out to the whole family. And the queen mother can't hear anymore because she's 100. And Leslie Manville just kissing like, oh, would somebody shoot her?

It's really, I laughed a lot. And then Anne was like, I think the funny, and I genuinely rewound it like three times, is when Harry gives Will's the condoms and the queen mother grabs one. And she's like, is this a sweetie or whatever? And they were like, they're trying to handle her. And Anne just like snatches it out of her hand. And then it's just like, and then when the queen mother turns her, she's like, what do you mean? There was never anything.

It was just like this funny bit of silent business. But yeah, I mean, did you do any alternate? I don't know if it would help, but did you do an alternate casting for? Yeah, I have a couple. I mean, there was one, which is Daisy Edgar Jones. That would have been incredible. I mean, she's so phenomenal. She has the coloring.

She's very good. She's youngish. We got to get her back from, I guess it would be a, God, what was that terrible movie called? Where the Codad Singh? It would be her, it would be Daisy Hager Jones and Harris Dickinson. in a reunion and redemption. For the time we wasted watching that movie. Had you read that book?

Yeah, I had read. I had read. I had not read the book. And I was visiting my parents. I was still on like maternity leave. So I had like two hours of like precious hard one time to myself. And I went to the mall in Atlanta and watch where the Crodheds think. I got to tell you, that ending just blew my hair back.

Oh. I mean. You had a great time with the Croddads. I had a great time at a truly terrible movie. You're like, cue the Taylor Swift. And also like, oh my God, I forgot that she. But I was supposed to say like, oh my God, I can't believe that that's the ending of this book. Also knowing that that is now like the second most successful, like second most sold book after the Bible or whatever.

I mean, it's not, but it's close. It's close. Like you cannot believe how many copies of where the Codd Ed sing have been sold. Not as many as the Bible. I thought it was like Lord of the Rings, not to like bring my nerd car to the table. Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, good. All right. Anyway, Daisy Edgar Jones.

I'm going to see her, Daisy Edgar Jones. I'm going to raise you Amelia Jones of Coda fame. Oh, sure. Yeah. Who's a stealth Brit. You know, people might not know if they've only seen Coda, but she is British. So I think she looks the part and I think she is, I love her in Coda. Do you see Cat Person?

I have not seen it yet. Is she not good in that? No, she tries her best. She tries her best. All right. I'm just not interested in seeing that movie. Another one I saw alone. Here in Los Angeles.

Okay. The ending did not blow my hair back. Though it really did, I don't know. If you don't want cat person, the movie spoilers, I guess hit 15. They just,

they keep going for like, no. Yeah. It's not just the short story. It's, I don't know. Why? It's really choices were made. But,

Yeah, another redemption opportunity for her. Okay, I have one more who's too old. I have one more, too. Go for it. Kaya Skodilaria? Oh, yeah. Who actually? She's too old.

Yeah, she looks too old, but Meg Bellamy, like I thought of her because Meg Belominy, I think, does look a lot like her. But, you know, skins forever, Effie forever. That's what I have to say. Effie always. My last one is also older, but I think she usually plays younger. Her name is Sinov Carlson. It's, I'm going to spell it for you so you can Google it. It's S-Y-N-N-O-V-E.

Mm-hmm. Oh, okay, got it. Yeah. Oh, I mean, I can see it. I don't know. I've never seen her in anything. What's she in? Yeah.

She was in Bodies. Medici is a magnificent. I would love to know more about that. Right? Tell me more. Click and Bodies. Bodies is the one that she was in this year that's like Netflix show that a lot of people watched, apparently. But yeah, she is a really,

I think interesting actress. She obviously looks the part. Yeah, I can see it. And I just, of all those people we named, Daisy is obviously just like an incendiary talent. Like, she's just incredible. So yeah, if you want to, if you want to put her in there. But like, imagine putting her in there against Ed McVeigh. Anyway, the point being, going with the unknowns has worked for some people in the past.

It did not work here. It didn't pay off. I had a really fun time with this experiment. I was reading a lot of like young up and talent, like up and coming British talent lists. Yeah, me too. Listen, people are still making lists on IMDB and I salute them and I appreciate the time spent. Yeah, exactly. Anything we want to say about Harry's depiction, Luther Ford or Harry as a character?

It's just that was where the time jump was like truly jarring because he goes from tiny person to 8,000. year old on the phone at Eton being like, tell me more about sex, which like, I, you know, I do understand how teenage boys are in the world and college is for fucking. Yeah. But I was like, this doesn't make sense.

I thought he was like perfectly good and was a good sport about wearing a bad haircut. I know. He has to, he's saddled with all the bad hairy haircut choices. We'll talk about Harry a bit more in the back three of the season, so we can just say that for that. The last thing I'll say about like the Will and Kate thing. Them being boring or interesting aside, I just think the Will and Kate relationship

has nothing to say about the Institute of the Crown versus the Philip and Elizabeth relationship and the Charles and Diana and Camilla of it all. Camilla also gets a very generous edit. Charles and Camilla both get very, very generous edits. Camilla just on the phone being like you're not taking parenting and I've seen. It was awesome. I don't know whether it's true. I bet real Harry, if he ever sees that, will be outraged. But, I mean, it was good parenting advice. It really was. There's just nothing.

I just don't think the Will and Kate story, we'll see, you know, as it goes on in the back three, but like has anything to say about the institution of the monarchy, which is ostensibly the prompt of the show. Yeah. So if it's not giving me anything deeper than, to your point, right at the beginning of this episode, we're just playing beats that we are the public guardian

knows about. So last thing I want to say, did you have a favorite needle drop of these three episodes? I laughed at the Natalie and Brulia torn thing. I thought it was really funny. And Dominic West being like, oh, I like this one. Don't you? It was pretty tremendous. Um, Glory Box from Portisad, which has shown up in like, no fewer than five things this year, including like murder at the the world, killer, et cetera, et cetera. It just keeps showing up. It's a banger. It was a great song, and it was fun to see the princes get wasted or whatever.

Club H is what that's called. That is their basement room at Highgrove. That was, like, in an old, like, bomb shelter. Yeah. Yeah, that they, like, redecorated from stuff they stole, you know, like carpets and chairs and whatever that they stole and furnished it with. It's great stuff. All right.

Anything else? I want to say, before we go. I'm really looking forward to episode eight, you know? So I think it's going to be your favorite. I think it's my favorite too. And I'm glad that Leslie Benville in every single moment, the thing where they were cutting between the Christmases and it's just like Leslie Benville just at the piano as Margaret like warbling Christmas songs at the top of her lungs and everyone else is like, get me out of here. It's like apparently true to real life Margaret and also extremely funny. I think the fact that they've had like Vanessa Kirby and Helen of Bottom.

Carter and Leslie Manville all be like, what if I saying? And other people are like, maybe we don't need it. Yes, we get our requisite Margaret episode and then the finale. And the finale, like, you know, again, no spoilers. But I had to refresh myself right before we recorded today how much of season six they had shot before the queen died. And it was like they had just started. Like that week they had just started and then they stopped.

And so the finale, Peter Morgan said in an interview, the finale was like, how do we handle the fact that the queen? I was like, how much did they rewrite? How had a chance to rewrite or whatever. The finale is very significantly, I think, interacting with the end of Elizabeth's life. And that, I think the finale is pretty strong. Okay. We'll talk about all of that next week. Elsewhere on the prestige feed, Rob Mahoney and I are covering Fargo, which is just really incredible this season.

And if you enjoy all the, like, legendary actresses acting their asses off in The Crown, you will enjoy what Jennifer Jason Lee is doing on Fargo. It's so good. And then there's just like a bunch of, you know, we mentioned Master of the Air. There's a bunch of cool stuff coming in the New Year. So stay tuned to the prestige feed. We'll be back next week. Thank you so much, as always, to Sasha Schell for producing this episode.

And we'll see you next week. Bye.