The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘The Curse’ Episodes 6-9

Episode Date: January 8, 2024

Sean and Jo convene before the finale of Nathan Fielder’s cringe dramedy ‘The Curse’ to sift through the many ideas about performance of the self, gentrification, reality television, marriage, art, and more in Episodes 6-9. Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Joanna Robinson Producer: Sasha Ashall Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I'm Sean Fennacy and this is the Prestige TV podcast. Today we are talking about episodes six through nine of the Showtime Paramount Plus Cringapalooza, The Curse. Joining me to do so as she has for the last few episodes is the great Joanna Robinson, my chief partner in cringe analysis. How are you feeling, Joe? It's so funny. I thought we were going to talk about a great Emma Stone performance and a really cringy comedy routine. But not the Globes.

It's the curse. That's we're here to talk about. We're here to talk about the curse. We can talk about poor things if you like, maybe sprinkle some poor things on top. Which is the superior Emma Stone performance in 2023, in your opinion? It's hard to compare them, honestly. I think what she does, poor things, one of my favorite movies of the year,

I think what she did in that is extraordinary. I think what she's doing here is maybe even harder without all the sort of like physical ticks and tricks and whatever that she gets to use and poor things. that this is just so stripped down an actual, the absolutely abhorrent and uncomfortable performance of being a person. I mean, that is just what we're watching, and it is sometimes huge and sometimes incredibly small and subtle the performance

and completely captivating to me. What do you think, Sean? Well, I think you're right. They're kind of performances in reverse. Poor things is about a woman literally coming of age, developing and evolving and having incredible realizations about herself and the world around her. And the curse is sort of the opposite. It's like a slow deconstruction and destruction of the soul. And the show, as it's been going through these last few episodes, we've witnessed a character

aided pretty significantly by her producer, Dougie, claiming a kind of independence, but also in doing so revealing a kind of venality and selfishness that the show is kind of hinting at through the first few episodes and now is shown us kind of in full, which is that she wants to be a star, she wants to pretend that the privileges she comes from doesn't exist. She wants to be somebody who is self-made, but also stays above the fray. She wants to be a good actor in the community. She wants to be a good actor on her TV show. She is really trying hard to have it all. And, you know, behind the scenes we're witnessing her and also her husband, Asher, who is a fool and a bit of a demon, completely come apart. This is a, you know, it's a little silly to be like, the curse is crazy, man, but the curse is crazy.

This is a really unusual show on a prestige television network. And it's been fascinating watching it unfurl because I think people seem to be like kind of waiting for something big to happen. And it seems to be completely content to just show us the civil. and high concept, but ultimately mundane facts of being a bad person. What do you think about that? My question is, you use the phrase self-made, which is, of course, like, such a, such an interesting buzzword in America. And my question about Whitney, who I find, like, the most compelling character,

not the least of which is because of Emma's performance, is this question of, like, how much is this a deconstruction of something that she's been pretending to be her whole life? Or how much was this, like, a late in life invention of who she was? Because there is that compare and contrast episode where we see this horrible girl, a child that is like a bully and a popular girl and is cursed to fall in an episode. I'm like, so, I mean, do we think Whitney was like that girl when she was younger? And then she put on this costume of being good person. There is that line in one of, I mean, we're covering four episodes right now, but there is a line in one of the episodes. where Dougie and Ash are talking about

cosplaying a good person. When did she start trying to cosplay being a good person? I feel like it's something that she did consciously as an adult. And we're just seeing how impossible it is to hold that together. That can't bear up under any scrutiny, camera or otherwise, that that sort of cosplay and good person just cannot hold, you know? Well, there's a sequence where someone on the crew of her show

decides to quit the show after leaving, or is fired from the show after leaving a nasty note on Whitney's car because it's becoming clear who the real Whitney is, who her parents are, what her lineage is, and then related to that incident, there's a driver who is caught in this fracas. And so we see Whitney in real time start looking herself up on the internet. And she Googles herself using her maiden name, her birth name.

And when she does, we see this photo of her at a ribbon-cutting ceremony, with her parents. And she looks like Emma Stone. You know, she's not 14 in that photo where she's posing with her parents as they are about to open what I guess is like a slumlord tenement. Right. So I think you're absolutely right. I think that this was a kind of like, this was her version of I'm going to college far

away from my hometown so that I can become a new person. And she maybe met Asher. The show indicates pretty clearly that she kind of located Asher as someone who could help her redefine herself, maybe even redefine her faith. and her identity in the world, and also someone who was like, you know, a pretty cutthroat businessman in some ways and would be willing to do some things

that she didn't want to be seen as publicly doing so he could be like the fall guy in the event that things went bad. And that he was a real beta to her alpha. And so I think you're right. It's a story of self-invention in a lot of ways. What she invented, I think, is a bit monstrous at times and at least ungenerous.

But the show's really slow trickle of information for all of its characters, especially for Asher and for Whitney, has been pretty impressive. It's really cool how they, you know, most TV shows, even absurdist comedy TV shows, would front load you with a lot of exposition. And this show has been like,

we're just going to wait to tell you that this is what they did before and that this is what they did over here. You know, in these episodes we saw, for example, that Asher was a participant, really, in the critical event at the casino that he blew the whistle on, you know, that he was effectively

participating positively in that event as opposed to someone standing in a way. Yeah. Self-incriminating footage. Yeah, exactly. I'm so curious about your experience versus my experience because remind me again how many episodes. I know you've now seen new episodes, but how many episodes did you watch through in your initial sort of semi-binge? I watched through seven.

So this was my first time watching eight and nine this week. So you had seen like, but you had seen the turn. like if that's what we want to call it with Whitney. And so I don't know how to ask you if you were ever, I was fooled, I suppose. I didn't see it going like this extreme with her. I thought what we were going to watch was a slow dissolution of someone's morals. But what we found out instead is that this person was never,

there was no morality there in the first place, that that was just like the thinnest of veneers. ever. And as a week to week experience, that's an interesting, really interesting ride to go on. I'm sure it was a really interesting ride to go on no matter what. You were the one who was like, I couldn't stop watching The Curse. We need to do a podcast about it. So like, no matter what, it is an interesting story to watch. But like that slow trickle that you mentioned is really, really fascinating to me when they decide to show us what and when they decide. I also think, we didn't talk about this a lot. I wanted to ask you about this. We didn't talk about this a lot in our last discussion. We were talking about various levels of reality TV and performative nature and all of that. But this idea that they really zeroed in in these last couple episodes of the idea of performing relationship, I think is a really, really fascinating thing that's on the show's mind because as much as I never liked these characters in the first place, I actually didn't doubt. I was confused by their relationship.

but I didn't doubt that it was real. And then I find out it's not, she has no respect for Asher at all whatsoever. And that that was all performance as well. And this idea of like, are we all always performing in a relationship or in a friendship, if you talk about Dougie and Asher or Kara and Whitney? What do you think the show is trying to say about that idea of performance inside of a relationship?

I think you nailed it. I mean, that's like one of its key interests for sure. I think that the show kind of turns on this very interesting moment, which is when they were seeing a scene from the recreated flippanthropy episode featuring the young couple who are interested in buying the home. And there's this moment where in this very funny, very dull cut of what this show would be, we get to both watch the show that has been created, which is pretty incredible satire, I would say, of reality television.

And in that episode, we watch Whitney and Asher gift this couple a piece of native pottery. And when Asher goes to pick up the pottery, he's holding his cell phone in his hand. And so he's holding his cell phone in the shot with the pottery. And that's the moment I think that Dougie locates that shows Whitney's incredible contempt for her husband, or at least her disrespect for him. And he uses that as a pivot point to reframe the show. is really kind of like the Satan on my shoulder for Whitney in many ways that allows her to kind of realize this insidious, you know, egocentric pursuit that she's ultimately going to go after on the

show. It needed to be pushed along, you know, like it did need somebody to enact in this way. I think if there was no Dougie, there is no the curse, there is no green queen, there is no all of this stuff. So I don't want to just be like, these are two, you know, hell demons who were born on earth and we're meant to like destroy everyone. It's, it's this interesting identification of the fact that pursuing this kind of life, this kind of creative world, you know, another big theme of the show in addition to this performance of friendship and relationships is this desperation to be recognized as an artist, as a creative and thoughtful person, as a good citizen and how most of that is like a folly

or impossible or anybody who is interested in being recognized for it is, it's an impossibility. Like if you're thinking about it, you already. lost. If you're desperate to be told, you're great publicly. Yes. Which is such a, it's not a subtle idea, but it's a hard idea to make interesting. And I think the show has done a nice job of showing us that just because you do something publicly doesn't mean that privately you're any good, which is something we all know and we all understand it. We've basically spent the last 10 years in our popular culture, like watching people get handpicked over time. Like, oh, he kind of sucks. Oh, this person sucks. Oh, wow. Look at this recording we have of this person being awful.

And the show, I don't know what's going to happen in the finale. But it almost feels like the show is setting up some sort of revelation about what these people do. But I don't want to spoil the discussion about the final five minutes of episode nine. We can hold that because that was such an incredible moment. Yeah, but I guess the question is, can any of us bear under the intensive scrutiny that we're all, like, of our modern, we're all being sort of. We all always have our phone in our hands sort of society that we live in. We live in a society, Sean. I don't know if you know that.

But I think comparing, one of my favorites, one of the scenes that I keep going back to from a couple episodes ago, not even in this run of episodes we're talking about, is when Whitney leaves to go talk to one of her tenants. And she makes this, like, very conscious decision to walk through the neighborhood instead of drive. And we talked about it in the last episode, but I thought about it again when we watched this party sequence where she's trying to get B-roll of herself at this party in these episodes without Asher. Right? So she's at this, you know, at Kara's party and she's carefully curating this image of herself. And so we then get to see overtly what was going on inside of her head when she made that like sort of long walk the cameras with her. And she's just sort of like saying hi to people. And we know that inside of her own head is this sort of producer, editor, director, who's telling her how to perform being a good person. I'm going to walk. I'm going to say hi to everyone. I'm going to do all of these things. And there's no one yelling cut because it's not exactly that kind of performance.

But it is a performance nonetheless. And so the idea that we then get to see that literalized in the party scene, then if you think back to that walk, you think about this woman and all the people in the world who constantly have a producer, editor, director, inside their head telling them how to perform likeability, you know, at any given time. So just as important as that is the things that she doesn't want to be captured, what she doesn't want to be seen, when she's, you know, in that party scene that you're talking about, this is the party at the art collector's house you're talking about? Yeah, correct.

In that scene, we kind of watch like the end of Whitney and Kara's friendship because Kara tells her something directly to her face after she explains the meaning of her art, which is something that artists don't usually like to do. I know. She explains the entire concept of the piece that she had at the museum where she gives visitors to the museum, Turkey, which represents, you know, like her art and her culture and pieces of herself.

Pieces of herself. And Whitney consumes it in that scene. And that's an unmistakable. That's an incredible scene in the early goings with the show because it's so strange and it's so hard to parse. But you can tell even in that moment that Kara is mortified that she's done that because it's such a grave offense that she would consider doing that. And then Kara, who, you know, is another really interesting character. in this formulation because there are so many people that are like this where they're sort of like my circumstances are not as privileged as the people that I am surrounded by. And on the one hand,

I'm disgusted or annoyed or just feel that they're incredibly lame. And on the other hand, their wealth and power could help me change my life in meaningful ways. And so I have to make all of these kind of ethical compromises to participate in this wealth or to just get myself into a better circumstance so that I can do what I really want to do. This is something that happens every day around the world. And I think the way that they frame Kara is really interesting because she does reach a breaking point. She's taken this $20,000 as a consultant.

She's performing this exact friendship that you're describing that we're seeing also between Dougie and Asher where they kind of need each other but hate each other. And Kara and Whitney have the same thing. And Kara is one of the few people in the show, aside from her parents, who looks her in the eye and is like, you're selfish. You're not a good person.

She doesn't say it explicitly, but it's clear what she's communicating. And when she says it, she's being filmed, which is Whitney's worst nightmare. That's the worst thing that could happen is not just that someone would say it to her, but they'd be recorded

and that someone else could see it at some point, which is such a fascinating little portrayal of her cracked psychology. Show is very, very good at showing this kind of a thing. We see it kind of over and over again, though. We see it in her interactions at the gene store that they have in Española,

where she's created. like an internal theft ring? What do you make of the decision to like extend that plot line out as far as they have? It's interesting. I wonder how much of it is to like keep, you know, we started with Fernando. I'm wondering how much we're going to like end with Fernando. His, his, the description of subsidizing shoplifting as a cancer on the community is, you know, a perfect descriptor of like her, their impact.

And interestingly, the kind of language that you would expect to hear from oblivious, gentrifying assholes, you know, people who are like, you would expect to hear that from like an older, not in my backyard, kind of a resident. And in fact, like, the show is kind of flipping that premise on its head, too, by having someone who is from the community, who is watching these people come in and who is watching this kind of weird behavior that is empowering like outsiders like white kids coming into the community and just stealing. So the show is also like tilting the balance of our expectation around what like a conservative white person would say if they came into a community like this. But having someone

who actually lives there and it was actually from there and it's like how can you let this happen to the community that I live. You're the cancer. Yeah. I think it's fascinating. And I think that also this question of Fernando as like I don't know how fruitful it is to speculate about like what this is all leading towards. But the sequence in this episode in episode nine where we're following Whitney from the POV of someone in a car, we've been talking about this the whole time covering the show, that there have been throughout interesting shots of Whitney and Asher that is not Dougie's camera, but is sort of voyeuristic in that they are shot through windows or shot, you know,

inside their car, something like that, that we're in unusual POVs watching them all the time, that it feels voyeuristic all the time to watch them. And I think, you know, seeing where they've gone now, I think that's meant to show us how much everything is a performance

that they're ever doing in their lives. But to include, it was just sort of like a step beyond that to include the POV from the car where we saw the steering wheel. So then we're like all the more conscious of the who is by, behind the POV that we are watching Whitney through.

What do you make of that? Like, is that, you know, reading various recaps and online theories and whatever, people are thinking that that's Fernando and we're all headed towards like some big blow-up conversation with Fernando, which I don't know that I love. And to your point, I don't know, the show ever even wants to go that big. But do you feel like that POV from the car shot was meant to just sort of exaggerate what we had already seen or are we setting up something more sinister? It's a really good question. I don't have a strong feeling about it. It reminds me, one, it feels like a vehicle for like a filmic style. So we talked about previously how the show at times, the way that it's shot, the way that it looks like sometimes surveillance footage or at a great distance, it's kind of in keeping with that. It's also that point that you just made, which I think is really smart, which is we're kind of always looking at her waiting for the performance to crack. And this is a way to see her in the world when she does not

expect to be filmed or on camera. It's also, you know, it reminds me of like Black Christmas or the Dutch film The Vanishing or it's a horror movie convention, you know, to have that POV shot peering in at a young woman. You know, that's like a classic style of horror or thriller filmmaking and we're meant to be completely unnerved. You know, this is a comedy show in theory, but it's a pretty scary and strange show and you're meant to be unnerved by it. So whether or not it's Fernando, I mean, it certainly could be. I think that That confrontation with Fernando, which comes after, this is kind of a lead into a discussion about Asher actually, because, you know, we see a few times across this quartet of episodes.

Asher having to have confrontations on behalf of his wife or on behalf of his own pride. We saw in an earlier episode where potential buyers of the home insulted Whitney by saying she's a lot or something to that effect, and he kind of like blew his stuff. top, but you could see him trying to figure out how to blow his top. He was almost performing angry husband. We see him when he's ignored by Bill in the hardware store in these episodes, how he doesn't quite know how to handle being rejected and ignored, and he wants to be rageful, but he also wants to be sympathetic and understanding. And so he doesn't get a chance to clarify that. And then when Fernando comes into his home, he feels like he has to stand up for his

wife, but also Fernando wields a gun and is twice his size. So what's he really going to do? And then after he has that confrontation is mercilessly mocked by his wife in like a hilarious performance by Emma Stone, but they linger on the way in which she strips him of any humanity. And then that's followed again by another confrontation at the bowling alley when Bill apologizes and thinks that Asher, in fact, you know, wasn't the guy who blew the whistle on the casino incident that, you know, he's so sorry about what happened and he's trying to ingratiate himself to Asher and Whitney. And then because Asher feels the pressure from Whitney about his complicity

in the action in the casino, he then feels he has to directly say to Bill, I blew the whistle, which then leads to another awkward confrontation in which he has to perform a kind of masculinity. And he's not comfortable doing that. And it's awkward. And Whitney is awkward in that moment, too. You feel there's a quick moment at the end there where she feels like she's trying to say something and she almost just like blurts out a syllable before walking away. This is like hard stuff to capture. Because this is what it's actually, I don't know if you,

I assume you've never been in like a fist fight or anything like that. But if you've ever been in like a confrontation in a public space, it's not an eloquently written Aaron Sorkin monologue back and forth at each other. You know, it's two people like kind of like figuring out how to raise the tone of their voice. You're so out of control in that moment, you know. Exactly. And scrambling to have control of a situation that you've already lost control of.

And I think watching, having the sequence where we then have Asher try to redo that confrontation in the mirror, you know, in the mirror and having Whitney listen to that and stuff like that is, you know, a great capture of something that we all do, which is go back over the conversation and wish we had done it differently. But we're constantly watching. We've a few times now watched Asher, rehearse, record his conversations with Whitney and go back through and make notes about it. how he could have done it better. So that's that performative rehearsal, giving himself notes on his own earlier performance. Like all of that is a fascinating extra layer here where we have, and you have to think about what the show is trying to say in terms of like, who are these kinds of people that feel the need to perform either masculinity or goodness or, you know, whatever the case may be? and what is the shame that is at the center of this person they feel and they need to, like, cover?

And for Whitney, it's her, what, her parents and where she comes from, that she's been told is shameful. And so she's like, let me mask that as much as I can. But like the gleeful bitchy mean girl is just like right there under the surface waiting for the merest nudge from Dougie. And then with Asher, it's, I guess, the micropinus. You know, which we got another look at, you know what I mean? And what the show wants to say about equating those things or putting them in a similar bucket? I don't know.

But I just think it's an interesting thing to think about. Well, I think it's even more so than just the guy having a small dick. It's that insecurity in its way has evolved or devolved into his sexual kink. So when he's replaying that conversation, it seemingly is jerking off. And Whitney is overhearing him masturbating to. his own kind of failure to be the sexual figure in his wife's life. He's imagining Bill, who is now an enemy of his, they've just had a fight, having sex with his wife. And in the same way, I think, I think that their psychologies are matched in a lot of ways. But the thing that they are

most embarrassed about, or that they hate the most about themselves, about the essence of themselves, is in a way powers them. It, like, powers their ability to be ambitious and ruthless and, you know, that is kind of like Asher at the height of his sexual powers is imagining somebody else having sex. And it just says so much about their psychologies. It's a very baseline psychology. Like, guy with small dick is insecure. It's pretty baseline psychology, you know, woman with a lot of money wants to seem like a good person. That's pretty baseline. But you never see it explored in quite such absurd fashion. So I really love how they've posed those two against each other. Quite so dark. It's just so, it's pitch black. And I think that,

the way that Asher thinks about Whitney as this way of performing his masculinity as such an interesting thing, like thinking of her as a status symbol, like he's got this extremely attractive, you know, accomplished wife. And that is something that is so important to him as he goes around, like, in terms of his own image, you know, the idea of the, she's not a trophy wife, but the idea of wife's trophy is, like, of course, as old as time. But, like, when you watch her, just try to absolutely decimate him and almost push him into rejecting her. And he says, I'm all in anyway.

It's so tremendously sad to think about how much he needs her to feel like he's okay to be out in the world. He's like, but I've got, however bad I feel about myself, I've got this hot wife, and so it doesn't matter, how much he's willing to put up with

in order to hold on to that, to grasp onto that. Do you think that for her it is that she is trying to push him to break up with her? Or do you think that she is trying to push to see how far she can go in terms of dominating the relationship? The only reason I wonder if it's the first one is she seems so disappointed, somewhat disappointed by it. She's not like, yes, I've now unlocked a new level of, you know, things that he'll tolerate. It seems like she's like, oh, no, wow, this is how you're reacting. So it almost seems like she was looking for someone, similar to her parents, similar to Kara.

There is a part of her, I think, that wants someone to tell her to stop. I don't know. I kind of feel like the kind of personality that needs that co-conspirator that needs Dougie to unlock the true mean girl spirit inside of her, there is also a kind of out of control tell me to stop aspect of that psychology too. Do you know? Tell me to go, but also tell me to stop. Yeah, that she's pliable in a way.

She almost doesn't really have a morality. You know, she is very influential, which is an interesting way to think about her character. And an interesting way to think about people who aspire to the kind of fame that she aspires to. Because I think there's a lot to that. I think there's a lot to people who just want to be publicly loved and they're willing to kind of shift.

in any direction to get there, whether it be with their co-collaborate, you know, their collaborators creatively, their life partner, their family. Like, you know, the only time I feel like we see the real Whitney is when she's being a brat with her parents. You know, that's, and I think that's what, to answer your earlier question,

that's when she gave it away from me. Like, I didn't know right away that Whitney was an absolutely horrible person after the first episode. But watching her interact with her parents, I was like, this is a flag. Now, you know, I'm the father of an only, girl. You know, it's a unique

dynamic. I'm not saying that she's awful because she's a little brady with her parents. But the way that they the way that Emma Stone lets herself be seen in those scenes indicates that she's a piece of work. I think it's her childlike

qualities have been interesting to track throughout. But I just think it's really the other show that keeps coming up in my mind as I think about like what Nathan Fielder and Emma Stone and Benny Safty to a certain degree are trying to accomplish with this, is it just makes you think of what Mike White was trying to say with White Lotus in terms of like, I have, I'm just a guy, Nathan Fielder, Mike White, who has found himself in this world

of increasing wealth or privilege or ambition and fame and hunger and all that sort of stuff. And like, I'm in it, but I'm not in it. And what can I tell you about it? and how can I do it from like a slight remove enough that I'm not literally talking about the people I work with day and day out, but I kind of am. And I think there's just like a very similar, I think White Lotus is lighter, but White Lotus literally has murder in it. But, you know, I think I think they're both really interesting. I think it's really hard to sell the idea of doing an outside looking at. story when you've reached the heights that Nathan Fielder and Mike White have as creatives,

as writers, you know? And I think both of these shows are tremendous accomplishments in that regard. Yeah, I completely agree. I think they're really well-paid. And they're the right kinds of shows for this era of our culture. You know, they sort of both indicate a self-awareness of the problematic nature of power in certain communities. But also they're still like made by a bunch of white guys.

You know, like a bunch of like industry veterans who are really smart and who you're right are like kind of at a move but also like literally have golden globes in their homes. You know what I mean? Like this is not true outsider art. It's just it's as close to it as you can probably get in this container. From the inside. Yes. Yeah.

Which despite being on the inside. You know, appeals to me. I'm an industry plant too. You know what I mean? Like I'm sitting in the Spotify offices. I'm not, I'm not, uh, I'm not Andy Warhol. here. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound terseptitide may be able to help. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help

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Here's a little tune to help you remember. Same drive, different day. Don't you wish you were getting away? Pack your bags and come on through. Texas, Ohio, Alaska, we're up there too. Comfort in. It's calling your name. Save on the stay.

Oh, and free waffles are yours to claim. Well, I hope you like my little song. Book direct at SoysvilleTales.com. I wanted to ask you, can I ask you about the way the show is playing with religion? Because before we started recording you and I were talking about how we were both enjoying some of the recaps that been reading of the show. And Esther Zuckerman, I think specifically in New York Times, when tracking this sort of like Sikh representation on the show from episode. She's been doing an amazing job with her recap. So good.

Phenomal work. And then we have Whitney adopting Asher's Jewish faith. We have her parents as sort of like perhaps former followers of, I don't know what the show, like what do you make of that as a strain through the show? Well, you know, I don't know that I would have picked up on the Sikh concept if Esther had noted it a few times when I was reading. So shout out to her for really zeroing in on the fact that maybe this show is leading towards Emma. a stone who again we're saying as a person who's susceptible to influence potentially just joining another faith looking for another community where she can be accepted that in theory is a place

where her kind of goodness can shine you know that that's something that she is also sort of desperately important to her or maybe she's just like a person who likes attention and likes people to say like you should come be with us you know it's hard to say i do think that her relationship with her parents and their relationship to ashers jewishness is very important of the show and the like shedding of your previous identity. And also the kind of, you know, long-running cliche about the Jewish man seeking the Shixah wife and like Woody Allen setting the template for that

and a lot of, you know, Jewish comedians over the years setting in a template for that. It's kind of working in reverse in a way. In this way, it's sort of like this woman, if you read it uncharitably, it's like this woman who wants to be in show business, you know, who wants to make her own business. Like she sought out a Jewish guy.

And that she's wearing the star of David around her neck and that she's fully committing herself. But when Asher wants to observe on a Friday night, she can't be bothered. She has plans just to go somewhere else, which is notable. You know, like she's not actually committed to anything. She doesn't believe in anything.

None of these people really believe in anything. They're all just kind of doing what's best for themselves. And I wonder how much, I mean, there is that. There's, like, Faith is a piece of jewelry as, like, performative in its own way for her. But there's also that idea of the thread of belief. Can you manifest something just by believing in it? Right? Which goes back to the very concept of the curse.

Like how much just like believing that something exists, believing that a young girl can curse you, or this young girl then saying, wait, did I curse this guy? How much is that different from the thing actually being true? So this idea of, I don't know, these like little gods, these little beliefs, these little things that we build for ourselves, and how much that can be reflected back in various religious communities is a really interesting, but just like slowly burbling in the background of this larger story

about reality television and the world we live in and performative do-goatery, etc., you know. I feel like it's twinned with that the latter part, the performative do-goodry that has been at the forefront of the show. Like I noted with interest the song at the end of episode 8 that Asher is live rapping along to, which is, did you clock this song? Do you know this song? No, Sean, what song is this?

The song is called Hell Yep, Himp the System by Dead Press. So Dead Prez, you know anything about Dead Pres? No, totally. Okay, allow me to transport back to 2002, hip-hop Sean, living in the world. I love hip hop Sean genuinely. I love to think about him. Thank you.

He was a very earnest fellow. And Dead Prez is among the most militant hip hop groups ever signed to a major label. Hell yeah, is the first single off their second album. And they're a group that, like, I think was very clearly inspired by a public enemy and was like, we're going to say it even more directly. What's going on here? They were kind of matched with like rage against the machine. They were overtly socialist. They were overtly black power.

They had great songs and were incredible producers and songwriters. But they were also a group that I think they knowingly attracted a lot of well-meaning white fans who didn't really understand what their music was and didn't really understand even the way that they were being commoditized. So to use Asher to show us Asher as a guy who knows every word to hell yeah and uses it as like kind of a pump up anthem. To kind of refurbish his own masculinity, which is, of course, that's the exact opposite of the point of Dead Prez. Hell yeah. This music, like a rich guy flipping homes in a community while trying to get a show off the ground for HGTV being really into Dead Prez is like the archest parody you could possibly imagine. To feel like strong Kendall Roy energy. Completely. But even more so, like Kendall Roy wraps along to Jay Z. Everybody likes Jay Z. Jay Z's Elvis.

Dead Prez is like you have to really, you have to work to know all the words to hell yeah. You know what I mean? Like Asher is 20 when that song came out and he's memory, like I didn't memorize all the words every Dead Press song and I like Dead Press. Let's Get Free the first album, incredible album. That's a jam.

But I say that knowing what an absolute fucking asshole I sound like when I say that. And it's, it's, it's, it's, we're, Asher is being shown to be a complete buffoon by... He's the king of the assholes. Yes, the king of the assholes. So I really appreciate that. And again, another little subtle touch that this show has, that it's like, it has a deep bag of satire.

Yes. And it's, it's interested in, in so many different corners of where the potential, like, cringe can find you. Is it art? Is it going to get a massage? And the person who's supposed to massage you is this woman that you're literally paying to be your friend already. Like, and you're like, oh, no, this is where I draw the line of a transactional relationship. I won't do this, but I will pay you $20,000 to be my Native American consultant on my reality TV show. Where do you feel like, in terms of like performative do goodery, do we have to look back at like the episode where Dougie takes the keys from those kids so that they can't drive drunk, which is one of the more bizarre things I think that's happened, like the more surreal bizarre we mentioned like Twin Peak, David Lynch sort of thing that has happened on the show.

Does that strike you as of a piece with like other, like, it's just Dougie's extremely twisted and bizarre version of performative do-goodery, or is there something else still going on some other like surreal twists and a knife that can come? You know what I mean? No, that's a really great prompt, though, because it revealed something really interesting about Dougie, which is that Dougie does everything that Whitney and Asher don't do. He's crude. He's desperate.

he's willing to do anything to make a successful show. But we know also because of what happened to his wife that he's actually haunted, you know, that he actually is psychologically deep down destroyed by what happened to his own life. And then maybe he's using this brash persona as a mask for it. But I think this might be an overread. I'm not really sure. But that sequence that you're talking about, which I think was in the fourth episode, I can't remember, fourth or fifth episode.

Something like that. Four or five, yeah. I think could have revealed actually like an ethical compass, like perhaps an ethical compass whilst drunk and interacting with teenagers. But I didn't think there was anything performative about that. I think it reveals that he's weird, but maybe he actually thought,

don't let these poor kids do what I did, which is drive drunk and hurt somebody. So maybe like the only person with an actual moral compass on the show is the person who seems the skeeziest. I think you could say that. And sometimes that's the case. in life. Where you meet someone and you're like, this guy seems like a real asshole.

And then they do something and you're like, wow, that was really decent. Well, who are you actually? And this unknowability. How you buried some keys in the dirt somewhere. Fascinating. Yeah. I don't know. What do you make of Cara at the end of the day?

Like is, you know, she, I know you already singled her out as this sort of like truth tell her telling something to Whitney about herself on tape. But what are we? And someone who we're watching. grapple with this idea of selling out, what does it mean to sell out? How much can we allow ourselves to sell out to fund

our lives, our art, etc? It's so funny when we think about a curse, the curse, etc. I see her putting that money that she got from Whitney in the freezer as like one of the most superstitious things. Someone has done on the show

where it's just sort of like this money feels cursed. I'm going to put it in the freezer. She might as well have sent it to space. Yeah. Exactly. And I just like her, I just like her as, you know, as this counterbalance to Whitney trying, grasping to be the most, like, upsettingly, transparently, terrible version of what it, what you might stretch to call yourself an artist versus this woman who I think actually has artistic talent. But it's, but it's so muddy. It's not like a clear contrast day and night.

She's not like the virtuous artist. There's something much muddier going on with her. I completely agree with you. I think it's actually an attempt to upend that very obvious counterpoint. Like in theory, you'd say, oh, well, this Native American woman who's an artist and so thoughtful. But, like, Kara is interested in Dougie and flirts with Dougie, you know, and he's kind of a shithead. And Kara wants money, as she should, you know, and she's kind of, she's complicit in this big, messy. ugly world of reality television making and appropriation,

but she has lines that she won't cross or that ultimately she gets pushed towards and she can't step over. I loved that image, that lingering image. I think it was episode eight of the Indian being smashed, you know, the statue that Whitney recovers from the golf course and gifts to Kara. And then we see it basically being thrown in a garbage truck by a garbage man because clearly Kara has just left it on the curb to be destroyed. and she doesn't want to use it in her art.

I think that ultimately tells you everything you need to know. It's like to her face she's willing to accept that gift, but deep down, it's all garbage. Everything Whitney produces is garbage and should be thrown in the trash. And that's, we know that Kara knows that, and that's enough. She doesn't have to be a perfect person for her to be an interesting character. It's so interesting that there's just been a couple times that the show, in terms of that idea of subserting expectation, which is something every show is always trying to do to varying degrees of success.

And I think the way that this show does it, where it's showing us, it's like the harrowing chiropractic adjustment scene, which we have not talked about. I forgot, Abshier. Which ends the episode with everyone wondering, is this man dead or paralyzed, Absher, right? At the end of this adjustment. And then he's fine. Everything's, nothing's wrong. Have you ever done an adjustment out of curiosity? I have. Have you ever had an adjustment?

Yeah, I have. They're horrible. It's crazy. They let people do that. It does not be illegal. Like, anytime you ever go into a chiropractic appointment, it does not feel like you're doing something legal. I deeply related to Barcad Avi in that scene.

I was like, it's traumatic. It's awful. But I think, and then there's also been scenes where, like, when Dougie and Asher are driving, where you're wondering if they're going to crash the car, just in a couple moments. where you're wondering if something extremely violent is going to happen. And I have to wonder if the show is like, no, we're not doing the big violent, like something,

we're not doing White Lotus. Someone isn't going to get murdered this season. What we're doing is much more the mundanity of being awful, as you sort of said at the beginning of the episode. And that those like sort of expectation subversion moments are about that, about like you don't need to kill someone in order to be a cancer on a community. You could just be low-grade awful Or medium-grade awful if you prefer I think it's a good read I do still think Do you think that they're moving towards a big finish though

I do think that there's going to be a shocking aspect to the conclusion I mean This episode episode 9 felt very much like table setting For something in the finale But I just I something has to happen and I think all of this has to fall apart or something has to happen and in

sort of like White Lotus style as it often happens like everyone actually stays together you circle the wagons when something you circle your wagon of privilege when something terrible happens but I'm just feeling doing that in the finale is too late to do something like that talk to me about screening the episode

because that's like that's the big finale moment of episode of episode 9 where we see the episode that Dougie has cut together they insist upon watching it actually after they're sort of like feuding but attempting to rebuild their relationship after going bowling and it's unclear what the state of Whitney and Asher is at this moment but they're going to go and sit down they're going to watch the episode together and they watch it and then is it is it Whitney who asks to see what's been cut or is it

Asher I can't recall who is it that asked for it's Whitney so so when Whitney asks for that is that because she wants to reveal it so that Asher will bail Or do you think it's, again, going back to my earlier question, an attempt to test where we see this well-edited, well-constructed evisceration of him and their marriage? I thought it was like her way out. Like, she can't say it herself in person to his face. But she's like, but this is the closest I can come to that. And I think she doesn't know how to get herself out of this marriage that she hates. And so she's hoping that the like TV version of herself.

can. That was sort of my interpretation of it. What did you think? I think that's true. I think I think the fact that it triggers in Asher, one, a desire to attempt to negotiate with HGTV and then learns from Dougie quickly that they don't want that. That's not what they're interested in at all. In fact, the network is appalled by the dissolution of their marriage as a plot point in the show, which is so funny. It is. But that his move is to do what you described earlier, which is to say this is an even more all-in moment. This is a desperate monologue about his commitment to her and them in which he completely falls on the sword despite the fact that she has been framed to us in the last few episodes as the agent of destruction at this moment and that there's nothing that she could do to push him

away, that he would be willing to sublimate his own ego, masculinity, whatever, because he's, you know, and I think you're reading is right, which he's like, I've got this hot, hot, wife. This is, I'll have this as my anchor forever and I need it. But that, like, okay, so to me, the critical question of the episode of the last episode that we're talking about here is what did her face mean when she was looking at him and he was throwing himself at her? To me, because she's like, teary-eyed, right? And to me, it's not moved by emotion. And I could be wrong. And I guess the finale will tell us if I'm wrong. But like, to me, it read like, shit, it didn't work and I'm trapped here. That's what it, that's, that's, that's what that read like to me.

How does that read to you? Is it possible, is it possible that it's 50% that and 50% like no one will ever love me as hard as this person does? And I, I kind of have to get on the level with that. Maybe. Like, I really do see, because we peek so early with the absolute evisceration of Asher from Whitney and, you know, instigated by Dougie, then I can see a satisfying in conclusion of this series being the two of them together forever. And that's almost like their own curse is that they're a curse to be with each other forever. And they're both so terrible and it's exactly what they deserve. So yeah, so perhaps that element is part of it is like, I can't leave this behind.

Similar to the way that he can't leave her behind because he needs her, you know, her stature to boost his own stature. she needs his sniveling groveling adoration in order to feel, you know, boosted up enough to get through the day. Possibly, I can see that. It's a disturbing portrait of a relationship, Sean. I agree. Very effective. Do you think Green Queen will be a hit?

I think if HGTV had had the Cajonese to do Dougie's version, it would be the biggest show of the year. I do. What do you think, Sean? As if you were, if you were, you know, an exec at HDTV, are you green lighting green queen? I'm currently interviewing for that position for new programming director of HDTV. I mean, it's always been, it's always been what your career was pointing towards, you know?

It's just the, it's just a mode of storytelling. Yeah. It's just, it's, it's Terrence Malick, it's Martin Scorsese, it's David Lynch, it's HDTV. That's like, that's my Mount Rushmore. So I'm excited about this. I didn't know that you and Zazlov shared so much in common, but I'm glad to learn it. I think it would be really, really cool

if one of these networks actually took a chance on this, the way that Showtime basically took a chance on the curse. You know, that if they were like, we're going to do something, it's going to look and feel like all the stuff you've seen before, but it's actually much darker, weirder and different. You know, what's the worst that could happen? People don't watch it.

People don't watch plenty of shows on those networks. Do I think it would actually be a hit? I do not. I do not. I think Asher is terrible on camera. And Whitney seems desperate. Nevertheless, the curse is not... No, but I think it would be one of those, like, train wreck hits.

Or one's like, you have to watch this. This is the worst thing I've ever seen. You have to see it. Yes. Yeah, we probably need more of that in the culture, too. We're a little bit too refined. We're a little too safe these days. Are we?

Well, at least in TV programming culture. I think just that the world at large, it's everything's a mess. day, but I don't know. No matter what, Green Queen will not have the precision of the curse, which is really just an impressive show. We're going to do one more of these about the finale of the show finale, which is airing on Friday on Showtime and Paramount Plus. You excited? You're excited for the finale? I'm very excited for the finale. Can I tell folks some other things happening in this feed? Please do. Ra Mahoney and I are not only wrapping up Fargo, but we are the same week launching True Detective. So if you're into True Detective Night Country, we're going to have Fargo

finale true detective premiere save time just no gap in the sketch unbelievable you're just a workhorse no i just love certain tv shows you just love seven tv shows you love movies and i love i love tv um you love movies too what are you talking about i do love movies um and then i i don't know how to tease this um i just want to say that there's like a really fun project coming to this feed a little later in the month that I'm really, really excited for people to check out. It's been something

that's been long in the works and I'm really excited for it to premiere on this feed. So stay tuned. Are you going to be recapping Green Queen? Well, we're turning this into like a full-time HDTV Zazlov-backed feed

because... Pretty exciting. Relate TV is art, so I'll be here for that. Congrats to you. Joanna, great to talk to you as always. Thanks so much for doing this. Thanks to our producer, Sasha Oshel,

for doing this episode as well. Stay tuned to the Prestige TV podcast. We've got a lot more for you soon.