The Prestige TV Podcast - 'The Girl From Plainville' Episodes 1-3

Episode Date: March 30, 2022

Joanna and Nora break down the first three episodes of Hulu’s new show based on the true story of Michelle Carter, ‘The Girl From Plainville.’ They discuss Elle Fanning’s performance as Michelle, the genre of true crime, scenes that stood out, and talk through ways of shooting a text-heavy story. Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Nora Princiotti Associate Producer: Erika Cervantes Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello and welcome back into the Prestige TV podcast. Feed it is a euphoria reunion in because I'm Joanna Robinson and I'm here with Norr, Prince, Adi. Hi, Nora. How are you? Hi, Joanna. I'm doing very well. It's fun to pod with you. It is. I just wanted to you like really quickly actually before we get into the show we're to talk about today, the girl from Plainville. I want to bring this on you. You weren't able to talk to me about the euphoria finale. So I just want to get your like your super quick idea. A tragedy in travel schedules. I want to get your super quick, you know, impression on the euphoria finale.

Very sad. Very upset. very hard for me. I'm going to be honest, didn't love it. Loved the penultimate setup of this season. I just, that was so predictable, right? Because people heard me say eight billion times that euphoria is borderline too much for me. And euphoria trying to do a climactic moment is inevitably too much for me. And I just didn't think that there was any way to like turn things up to 11.

in when I already felt like things had been at a 15 that wasn't going to be sort of just okay. Yeah. Well, yeah. Saw that coming. It was a hat on a hat for Nora for the Euphoria finale. We were here to talk about a new show also with some troubled teens. It's the girl from Plainville. This is a drama adaptation of a true crime story, the death of Conrad Roy the 3rd in 2000.

It's based on a 2017 Esquire article by Jesse Barron, and he also served as a consulting producer on the show. This case was also the subject of a 2019 HBO documentary, I Love You Now Die. The first three episodes dropped on Hulu today, and then the rest of the eight episode season will be playing out week by week. This seems to be sort of like the Hulu model that they're preferring right now. So we are covering episode one, Starcross Lovers and things like that. Episode two, Turtle and episode three, never have I ever. Two of those episodes were directed by the great Lisa Cholodenko. So, you know, blanket spoiler warning for the fact that this is a true story that happened.

So all of actual reality is on the table as far as spoilers go. But before we get into sort of details of these episodes, Nora and I wanted to give you sort of a blanket. Let's say you haven't watched the first three episodes. of the girl from Plainville. Nora and I wanted to give you sort of our blanket thoughts on the genre of true crime in general

and also whether or not we thought the show is something that you might want to, you know, tune in for. Maybe Nora says, don't do it. I don't know. We'll find out live together. So, Nora, let's start with you.

What is your taste for true crime in general? Like, how is this as a genre for you? So pretty high. I would say that I tend to the true or the adaptation, the close to sort of pure documentary, the happier I tend to be. And the more interested I tend to be in things. I sometimes I like the genre, particularly in podcast form. Sometimes.

Are you a murderino? Like is that? No, I don't even know what that is. I think that's what the listeners of our favorite murder, my favorite murder call themselves. Oh, okay, okay. Wow, you learn something new every day. But I do, like, I watch a lot of law and order when I'm cleaning my apartment. You know, like, I do, I would say that I, I'm more than dabble in the genre.

I'm not the biggest true crime fan in general. I don't listen to murder podcasts. I don't watch a lot of, like, docs about it and stuff like that. And so for me, the bar on this was pretty high in terms of does this show make a case for itself to exist since there has already been a great in-depth article. This was a really widely reported story. I somehow missed it entirely. But this was a really, really widely reported story in 2014. We'll get into some specifics of the case in a second.

But so this huge Esquire article exists. There's already been a documentary like, why? Why is this drama also here? And that's a question we've sort of been asking ourselves about a couple different shows recently. Like we crashed or the dropout, like these shows that are inventing Anna that are based on podcasts or documentaries or articles. You know, do we need to hear this story again if we're already familiar with it? My answer in this case is yes, based on one very specific performance. I actually really like to show a lot.

Nora, how are you feeling after you've watched the first three? How are you feeling? It sounds like maybe similar to you in the sense that if I were to make one argument for why this show should exist or why someone should watch this, it would be if they're interested in watching some very, very good acting. Now, if that's not enough for someone to override the fact that this is a dramatization of something really, really sad and dark, I would totally understand that. And there are some sort of interesting and occasionally uncomfortable intersections for me between my interest in understanding this story in a way that's true to life and my interest as a television watcher. Because I would say, for instance, that, okay, true crime definitionally is a story taken from a real life criminal case or something.

of that sort, right? Yeah. There's also the sort of true crime aesthetic, which is why I say like, okay, law and order is in some ways not true crime, but it has the vibe of it. It has sort of like the mystery pacing and cops and lawyers and courtrooms, scenes and ways of unfolding action. I probably, you know, I watched the trailer for this show to kind of get a sense of, is this just going to be too much to take or should I give it a whirl?

And one thing that really put me at ease was some of the aesthetics being very much like, okay, some of the drama here is going to really unfold in a courtroom, which is a little bit more sterile and less just like gutting than some alternatives. And that was something that made me much more comfortable with the idea of watching this show. now that's not where I think the most impressive features of the show are taking place and the ones that are actually like maybe taking a point of view or attempting to offer a telling of who people in these really crazy, scary, awful moments and events were. And sometimes I don't feel like that stuff sort of like I want the show to be a little easier to watch than it is. but a one reason would be there's some really phenomenal performances. So to premise the case, you know, for those who were unfamiliar,

Conrad Roy III or Coco as he goes by, you know, killed himself in the summer of 2014. And as, you know, investigators looked further into the case, which apparently is part of the course in Massachusetts. This is something that they would like normally do. it became clear that his text-based relationship with this girl from another town, Plainville, Michelle Carter, in her messages, I mean, it's hard to like tidily some of this case, but you could argue that in her messages she's encouraging him to kill himself. I think the case that this show makes and some of the articles and documentaries around that is that is much more complicated than that. But what happened then is that Michelle is tried for, on account of manslaughter, I believe, you know, for her involvement in his death, even though she wasn't physically there. I believe she was tried for involuntary manslaughter.

Involuntary manslaughter. So I think that there's a couple things that play here. You know, since this is a show about a suicide, there have been a lot of conversations recently of the last couple years about how suicide is. handled in our in our drama on our TV. And I think a big spark off point for that conversation was the Netflix series 13 Reasons Why, which was heavily criticized for sensationalizing and maybe even romanticizing suicide. And I think, you know, if you don't want to watch a show in which, you know, a young man kills himself at all, I completely understand. But what I will say is if you're hesitant to watch it, I think.

think the way that it's depicted is extremely sensitive and, you know, almost oblique. Do any thoughts about that after the first three episodes? Yeah, no, I agree with that. And it's giving you a lot of, in a lot of ways, it's commenting on how disturbing the act of romanticizing suicide is. Yeah, exactly. It's almost the inverse of that criticism. Exactly, hugely. And I think that each episode, I watch screeners, so I don't know how it's positioned on Hulu, but each episode began and ended with suicide prevention warning screens, you know, which is something that 13 reasons why I think only put up after they got critiqued,

et cetera, et cetera. So I think this is a show that is very aware of the sensitivity of what it's trying to handle here. And you've got the added interest. This case was so sensational. and it has so much interest because the question is, how could this have possibly happened? How could any human, and in this case we're talking about Michelle, do something like this? And again, I think the show makes a really good case for it's much more complicated than you're thinking. I read this great interview with Jesse Barron, who wrote the Esquire, the original Esquire article.

He gave another interview to Esquire this week about his work on the show. And what he said is that, you know, he was from Massachusetts. When the court case came up, he went down there and he was covering the case. And what he saw all the other journalists doing were the very black and white read of the case, which is like, she's heartless, she's a monster, she's a psychopath, all this sort of stuff. And then this poor young boy. And what Jesse Barron did is he, you know, in a great act of journalism, is he, like, moved to Massachusetts, got to know everyone in the family, lived down there. and told a much more nuanced story of all the major players here.

And I think that's what the show is really admirably trying to do, is give you a really complex portrait of everyone involved and make it clear that it isn't quite so black and white. One last thing I want to say before we get into specifics of the episode is that the creative team here, Liz Hannah, who's also involved in the dropout and actually see a lot of overlap between the dropout and this show in terms of, like, empathy for a tough to root for a young woman.

Not that they're asking you to root for her, but I think they're asking you to try to understand her a little bit better than you might otherwise. And then, as I mentioned, Lisa Chilajenko, who directed the kids are all right. And also the recent great Netflix series, Unbelievable, is also here for a couple episodes. So it's in tremendously good hands. But I want to start with, as we get into specific, I want to talk about the cornerstone performance that the real reason this wouldn't work at all without, which is L-fanning as Michelle Carter. So let me just throw to you right away and say, how do you feel about this performance, Nora?

She's pretty unbelievable. This is definitely a show where even after just watching one episode, the performers were their characters for me. If I closed my eyes and pictured L. Fanning in the show, my brain had lost the association that she's L. Fanning. And I always think that's a very good, it's like, you know how they say you're fluent in another language if you can dream in it? I think that's a very good, like, litmus test for an actor's performance on television. There is the combination of desperation and neediness with. some ability to turn on manufactured charm. And then something just really spooky and creepy that somehow feels real coming from within, you know, a teenage girl. And it's pretty remarkable. Another piece of that, I think most of that is just due to the fact that she does an incredible job as an actor, but the costuming.

I'm not sure if this shows up. I hadn't totally noticed it in the episodes that I saw, but I read something that indicated that at some point, L. Fanning has like a little prosthetic that raises her hairline that made her look more like Michelle. It's pretty, the physical element of it is also pretty remarkable. Yeah, no, the casting on everyone, at least the core actors, they do look a lot like their characters.

And Michelle had a really, if you Google image searches Michelle, she had a very dramatic look for the courtroom, which we'll eventually see in the show. But I think that Elle Fanning as an actress, who I really, really like, is always someone who has seemed like a little mannered to me. Like, there's always just like a little layer of artifice in her performance. And that suits some roles really well. Like, I love her in The Great, which is one of my favorite. shows it's on Hulu.

But that show is so dramatic and over the top that her, like, theater kid energy, like, really matches it. And it's even more perfect for Michelle, who was constantly performing. When we meet her, she's crying over, over this death. And she's just doing this incredible, over-the-top crying that is phony, but not, I don't know how to describe what she's doing here. And I think you only really see the true artifice of it when she breaks first to, like, yell at her sister to close the door and then to, like, show her friends who are not really her friends, what she wants to wear to the funeral. It's the mood bouncing is incredible.

And as you say, it's spooky. And I think something smart that the show does is give us these, you know, these girls who come to comfort her give their unease and their, confusion over her mood is our unease in confusion. You know, I think it's really interesting. And it gets sort of mixed up in, okay, was she always like this? Or is some of this the byproduct of she has these weird mannerisms? She's a little bit of a needy person, an attention seeker. but that's also pushed people away from her and maybe made her really lonely, which only exacerbates the behavior.

So it is, and again, I've only seen the first three. And, you know, I'm obviously familiar with the story from real life. But there is certainly something that leaves you wanting more in the way of explanation of, at minimum, just the show's point of view

on why she is the way she is and what exactly that means. There's this description from the original Esquire article that I really loved of Michelle. I'm just going to read it out. Jesse wrote, if Michelle had a defining characteristic, it was a cheery relentlessness. If you were kind to her, she would thank you so much it was confusing. If she upset you, she would apologize 50 times and apologize for apologizing. Not quite part of any group. She's sometimes overcompensated, lavishing attention in sudden intense waves.

It's just like it's a perfect, like, this is a pitch perfect description of the performance that we're seeing here and the way the character's written into the show. The way she is sort of like unctuously sweet or the way in which she uses those apologies to get out of something terrible that she's done. You know, if you think about like the fundraiser that she puts together every time Connor's actual best friend calls her out of something, she just, you know, she goes, oh, I'm so sorry, I just want this to be perfect. And, you know, people relent and it works for her. But she's not doing it in a way where she's, like, twirling her mustache evilly as she does it. There's a way in which she buys into her own narrative that makes it so much more complicated than that. Do you know what I mean? Well, she's, she's manipulative.

And it's interesting to watch her manipulate other people because at the heart of the case is if she manipulated Conrad into committing suicide. Yeah. But her manipulations are kind of transparent, which kind of in a weird way defangs a little bit of her potency and makes you question like, okay, but she's sort of like, you can tell that stuff's not right here and that she's, she's easy to see through. She just is sort of shameless in how she'll wrench things out of people. but it's not as though she's this like total mastermind who's able to trick everybody around her into doing her bidding and her will without them even knowing it. Like they definitely know it. It's just so uncomfortable that everybody just kind of goes along.

Right. So the spectrum of like she is able to sort of push people to do around her to do a lot of things, but she's not able to do it totally seamlessly, I think gets at the, central confusion and just cloudiness of everything. Hanging over all of this, like everything we see of Michelle, because we meet and present, I think the show handles the jumps through time pretty deftly because basically if Conrad's alive, we know we're in a flashback. And if he's not, we know we're in the present.

But hanging over what we see is this idea is that we know at some point she texted to Conrad just drink bleach and other things like that. Like that is something, we see the text messages. We know that that happened. We will find out the context for that in the future as flashbacks like unroll, but that's just looming. We know that she typed that at some point. And so to reconcile that with this extremely vulnerable young girl who's got an eating

disorder who has a bad relationship with exercise, who has a bad relationship with exercise, who has, you know, does not seem to have friends actually. All of that, it puts you in a really uncomfortable, complicated space and holds you there, you know, this whole series, which is honestly fascinating. Can we talk about glee? Absolutely. It's exactly where I was going. I am, as somber and upsetting as this show is, there are moments of extreme. Oh my God, I can't believe I'm watching this in a delightful way. It feels odd to say. The real Michelle Carter was obsessed with Glee, was obsessed specifically with

Leah Michelle, who plays Rachel on Glee. And we see this right at the opening. We see like sort of a cut out of Leah Michelle on her wall. She's watching Glee. She's watching Glee during the montage of opening texts. And then we see her watching Glee throughout. Corey Montefi, who played Finn, who played Rachel's boyfriend on the show and was Leah Michelle's real life fiancé at one point, died in 2013 of a drug overdose.

So that's sort of like in the mix here. And so we end episode one with this incredible performance by Elfinding of Rachel's eulogy for Finn that happened in the show Glee and a performance that make you feel my love. I think I've never seen anything I've enjoyed more on television yet this year than that moment. How did you feel about it, Nora? Totally. And that in a weird way is a good example of where at times watching this show, it's just made me think about what sort of what is it to be entertained by something that was a real life tragedy. Yeah. But that was a moment where I felt, and again, maybe there's something a little bit uncomfortable about just saying this so explicitly, but where I felt both like. what an insight into the thing that this is tackling.

And also, holy crap, this is good television. Because it is so weird. It doesn't feel like it could possibly be real. But it's also, I think there's something about knowing that that actually was something that was really, really compelling to her and something that she romanticized and that had created an image of death as something that. was sensationalized in her own mind. And that created this sort of spotlight moment for the romantic partner that Montief sort of left behind. There's something about knowing that that's all real.

That is so spooky. But the performance is so good that it makes it all the more powerful because it's just like, okay, I feel like I have a visual representation of what this actually was and it is so strange. And the, we, you know, we were just talking about

L. Fanning's sort of unctuousness. And like that is exactly what Liam Michelle's performance as Rachel on Gle is. And like she, as she's doing this eulogy, and then I think later she says something

and her sister calls her out for like just lifting a line from Glea she's trying to describe her dramatic over the top, you know, grief or something like that. But I just, the way she matches, Leahy Michelle's intonation and performance

the way that Elf Aning does that and then the performance of the song which has the backing and then the backing drops out to make it and then the score comes in to make it like a horror movie? I mean I again, incredible

television, just extremely good and it's not the last we'll see of the glee thing on this show but I was just like you know it's one of those things where I like had to look up my jaw dropped, I couldn't believe it was happening, and I had to look up whether or not this was true of Michelle Carter, and it was.

There's also, we also in the opening see a shot of a copy of the fault in our stars, the John Green book, which is about, you know, a young man who dies and the young woman who mourns him and was part of this like, Y.A. Dying Teens sort of craze is what I would call. crazy is an odd word, but, you know, trend of like sort of spearheaded by this book, but not isolated to this book. And so I just think it does a really smart job of putting all this specifically teenage girl pop culture material in the water and not doing like a blaming colabine on video games. Like, Glee is not responsible for what happened here, but it's in,

it's just in the soup of what's going on to Michelle Carter's head, you know? Right. No, if it hadn't been Glee. It would have been something else, but Glee is the, somehow it makes a lot of sense that it was Glee. Absolutely. The last thing I want to talk about Michelle specifically, and this is another thing that I, you know, was one to look up after I saw how the show treated it is we meet this girl, Susie, who was a friend of Michelle sort of concurrently while she was texting Conrad. They had a really close friendship. We see them sort of bonding a little bit over Glee. having a lot of sleepovers, you know, and some interesting looks. And so my question was, you know, what is the queer narrative around Michelle Carter in real life? And it's part of,

you know, you can Google it for yourself. It's definitely part of the case itself. And it's definitely part of a lot of people's speculations around certain motivations. So that's not something that feels at all, again, sensationalized, but it just feels like an accurate representation. of part of Michelle's whole, you know, teenage girl confusion. She's someone who is deeply uncomfortable in her own body is evidenced by her eating and exercising habits. And then she's got some confusions, I think, about her sexualities or lack of clarity. And that's also all in the mix.

Do you know? Yeah, I think the girl's name in reality was Alice. And that was part of the piece as well. I don't know if I imagine there's a little bit more. I think of what I've seen, they only sort of get to the start of them being close. So I'm curious to see where that goes. I think that's the only character where they change the name from Alice to Susie.

And I think that's just because I think they change, I think they change the names of all the friends. Oh, well, the friends. Okay. Yeah. Which that feels that, I, I respect that decision. Absolutely. Do you want to talk here about how you feel about these characters in general, or do you want to hit a few more specifics before you give your overall thesis about the show?

Let's keep going a little bit. All right. Let's hit Colden Ryan as Conrad. This is a really interesting performance, I think, as well, matching L. Fannie's performance, I think. Colton Ryan's not a performer I'm very familiar with. I'm not a dear Evan Hansen fan personally, but he was in the stage show and then was also in the film. And he played the young man who kills himself in the film. We barely meet Conrad in the first episode, right?

We get like his self-tape talking about social anxiety is like all we see of him. And then we get to know him in these flashbacks. How are you feeling about this actor and this performance? Yeah, he's, he's, I think he's really good. You know, it's first of all, I think it would be sort of, it's a big challenge to hold your own opposite L. Fannning in her role here. And I think he's able to do that. I, so I agree with you that I think just sort of definitionally when he's present, generally speaking, it's very easy to understand it as a, as a flashback. I could use one fewer sort of gimmicks.

because they have, okay, so when they're texting, they have them in person with each other. And then there are the flashbacks. Then I think there's, I think we're sort of being led to understand that Michelle is essentially having panic attacks at certain points when like there's this orchestral score that's really dissonant and loud and it kind of. comes up while she's freaking out about something.

There's maybe one too many just sort of like, this means this or this is how we're doing this things in here. Yeah. I could use maybe if one of those things were just sort of presented plainly without kind of a gimmick for it. I would appreciate that. But because sometimes when he, when he's present, but when it's actually supposed to represent.

conversations that they had via text, sometimes it throws me a little bit. But I think he's really good. In the first three episodes, is there anything beyond that basketball court conversation that is a text message exchange? I think it's just the basketball court. Okay. So, and that was the one that I had trouble with. It just took me a little bit to be like, how did he get what's going on? But maybe I'm just a do-do. No, no, not at all. I think I hear you on that, absolutely. And I think, you know, for some people, I think a Kairon, a date Kiron on a flashback wouldn't hurt, especially if you're watching this show casually.

I think that I will say the text message thing, I really appreciate. And here's why, because most of their interaction took place over text message. Incredible amount of text messaging over a couple years, during which they only made. met up in person a couple times. And this is something that modern TV and film have struggled with for years and years and years is how do you make a text conversation feel dynamic? You know, and they've experimented with different things. You can read the text on the phone screen. You can have it pop up, et cetera, et cetera. I really love what they did here with the in-person thing because then you're watching these two people connect and disconnect and all that sort of stuff. You know, we'll see more

of their text exchanges in the future. And I think if we were just watching them text each other in separate rooms, that would be a really tough way to try to understand their connection. Do you know what I mean? I think I mostly agree. And fundamentally, to the extent, which is pretty minimal, that I was thrown by that, it could have been solved with just a little, like, the effect could have been the same. They could have been, you know, shot as if they were in the same place.

but there could have been a Chiron or, you know, maybe the text could have been on the side on the screen as well or something. Just to indicate, just to make it really clear. I think that's right, particularly as you can read it as they both blew these messages and their significance up in their heads, clearly, to such a great degree, that it would make sense that it was sort of all. imagined. Like you are, I almost take it as like you're entering the fantasy world that each one of them constructed in their minds as they were exchanging all these messages. The only thing

that I go back and forth on other than just being a little bit thrown is that this story is fundamentally about texting. Yeah. And some of that difficulty of how do you represent a relationship that was almost entirely carried out through phones and through texting. Like, you want to get a sense of that. So again, I'm curious if once I've seen the whole series, it'll shade the experience of understanding how strange it is that their relationship took place almost entirely electronically. If it'll make it seem like they actually knew each other in some ways better than they

actually did. But I would say so far so good in that I think it's really powerful in demonstrating kind of the fantasy world that they both lived in. Yeah. And any like any sort of ways that I was thrown by it could have been solved pretty easily. It was just like some signifier that it wasn't a real. Yeah. I think between his social anxiety and her body image issues, I think it makes sense to me that they like despite living, they lived an hour away. And they had that. And they had this, like, you know, extremely passionate, if that's what you want to call it, romance, you know, where they're exchanging I loves you, and it's like the height of dramatic Romeo and Juliet-esque, you know, teenage drama. But they weren't trying to see each other every chance they got

because it wasn't about the reality of each other. Do you know what you mean? It's about this sort of like textual fantasy. And I think it's about, I think eventually what you'll see is them sort of talking across each other rather than to each other, which it can happen. in text really easily. I really like this depiction of Conradas as like this socially anxious boy, this like all this stuff that comes up with him working on the boat and how it's hard for him to reaclimate, how we see him trying to like study pop culture so that he has something to talk about it at a party.

And he's like trying to talk about Kim Ye. He's like, have you heard about Kim Ye? Right? I mean? And he's hyping himself on the. the mirror, which actually is a scene that also happens in the dropout where Amanda Seifers character is like hyping herself up in the mirror to go to a party. So it's just sort of like Liz Hannah, I think is very interested in. I wonder if Liz Hannah has a like a mirror hype up routine before

she goes to parties. But yeah, he like, I will say really quickly, though, a knit that I will pick with the show is in trying to get a grasp of the timeline, I was a little confused by what Conrad was Googling because he was looking at Occupy Wall Street, some sealed TMZ video, and then photos from 50 Shades of Grey, which didn't come out until after Conrad died, but maybe the photos were online. I don't know. It was like, I was like, what year are we trying to represent with this Trinity of images here? But yeah, all of that I thought was really good.

something that I really love is that when Conrad and Michelle meet, we understand from context that all of this has kind of happened before for both of them, that he is at the tail end of a sort disastrous long-distance relationship with a girl that has gone poorly in such a way that her father is like absolutely do not contact her again. And then we get these hints from Michelle, whether it's her friendship with Susie or something else that her parents are like, this is like before for you, that something like this has happened to her before. What does that tell you about these kids and the story they're trying to tell?

You're right that they didn't come into this clean, right? Like free of baggage or free of sort of their own unmet needs, basically. And it sets up. I think it sets you up for the expectation of the toxicity that's going to develop and the sort of tragedy of that developing out of two people, at least initially, you know, trying to find connection with each other. Yeah. But they just weren't, they were sort of, they were set up to fail just by their own sort of, by the things that they were both struggling with initially. And it's, that does, like, there are a lot of things that mirror elements of the case, right? Where, so Conrad had attempted suicide before unsuccessfully.

Right. And part of the case, part of the defense, part of Michelle's defense, I think, hinged on, you know, he tried to commit, he'd attempted suicide before. clearly this is a person who is really struggling. So how could it be that she had caused it? Right. And then you see her already lying about her relationship with Conrad. Wait, I think I'm mixing stuff up. No, I'm mixing up the past and the present because she lies in the future.

Never mind. Never mind. Well, no, she lies in the present. Like in the never have I ever game, she lies about sort of what happened on the beach, right? You know, the girls are like, never have I ever had sex on the beach? You know what I mean?

And then she implies that like more happened than the game. What I was thinking of was her lying about him showing up, lying about the fact that he came and said goodbye to her and that he brought her flowers. But that was in the present. Yeah. Yeah. But it's still, I mean, it's true. Like she, she lies easily.

and I think she lies initially she lies kind of innocently. It's all again to get like attention and feel like she belongs and lying about

how far you went with a guy on a beach somewhere is an innocent line. Then when it spirals out from there, that's how we land where we are. And my central point here

is that one of the major themes and things that's on display here is people searching for a reason why this happened. And there are scenes, and I think seeing them meet each other and seeing some of the earliest flashbacks does a really good job of saying, or are you thinking that this is why?

Well, maybe this is why. Well, maybe this is why. Well, couldn't it be this? Even this far along ago, like, they were already acting in this way. She was acting in this way. He was struggling with this. She couldn't deal with this. She lied.

He's not sleeping. She's not like you get all of those. You start to sort of develop actually like sort of your own frustration with just like I wish I could find an answer in this. And it's really, really complicated. And I think something that's really smart is the way that they shoot their first, their first like date. The like beach boardwalk montage and the biking and the beach and all that stuff like that. There aren't any sinister overtones to that. I think that's shot, I mean, at least as far as I, you can disagree with me.

But like, well, I totally disagree with you. Okay. All right. He leaves his sister. Like, no, I mean. In the middle of a town. But I'm, yes. Absolutely.

But I think, and like she has reluctant. She's, she's obviously reluctant. He doesn't press it, but she obviously has her own complicated feelings around like they're kissing and stuff like that. Like, all of that's in there. And then she's like afraid that he's mad at her. So she like kisses him again. to like please and like all that's in there.

But I think I mean more like the aesthetic of it, like the soundtrack, which is like, you know, a 60s bop, the like sunny beach scenery of it all. I think they shot all of that fairly straight in order to let the doom that we know is coming like loom over it, but not be the like overt text of it. Does that make any sense? Or you can disagree. That's okay. That makes a lot of sense. I think it's shot like that to present a contrast in the moment, too, though, because the vibe is so upbeat and cheerful and almost wholesome.

And then as soon as he gets back. Yeah. Like, he's done a pretty bad thing. And in the act of, you know, having this fun. sort of romantic young puppy love date. Like, he's done a pretty bad thing. That's evidence of not really being able to... Maybe this is, like, a testament to my upbringing, but like, how old is his younger sister

supposed to be? I don't know. Like, 12, something like that? A few years younger. And they were, like, not that far from where they started because they barked there. I don't know. So, like, maybe this is my, like, latchkey kid talking, but it didn't strike me as. as terrible of a thing as his dad said it was because I was like, oh, you just find your way home.

Maybe I was abandoned by my sister too many times. And I was just sort of like not registering that that was. I'm an only child, so I'm definitionally needy and would think that that was like a horrible, horrible act. Oh, I totally took that as like there's a little. And on her part too, right? There's a little bit of like sociopathic is maybe a little bit strong just in the case of that act. but it's like they don't have any issue just like ditching a kid.

It also to me just felt like teens narcissistically wrapped up in themselves, which is like, you know, what you do when you're a teen and you're like flirting with someone. But I hear you, I think, I think I think you're probably right. So like I agree with that. I just think it's an, I think it's kind of an extreme version of that, which is instructive. I want to talk about parents in this. We've got both Michelle's parents and Conrad's parents. all of which are doing, I think, a great job.

I just need to say the name. Norbert Leo Butts is one of my favorite actor names of all time. He's a tremendous stage actor and he's really good here as Conrad's dad. But the clear standout is Chloe Sevenier as Conrad's mom, Lynn Roy. This is like Chloe Sevenier in her

in her harried mom phase of life that she's doing like, We Are Who We Are, the Act and Russian Doll, she's like playing these tough flavors of mom. And I love her. I think she's really, really good in this show. Chloe Zemnier is from Massachusetts. And so she just like, I think she has this like slightly hard Massachusetts woman like down pat. What do you think?

Is she really? No, I think you're absolutely right. That sort of like South Shore aesthetic is is pretty spot on. I also, the other piece of like Massachusetts core is that in the first. scene where we see the cops. There's dialogue about the Red Sox. Oh, yeah, yeah. It's just like, oh, come on, guys.

I put that in my notes to ask you about. One must reference the Boston Red Sox in a casual conversation between members of law enforcement within the first 30 seconds of meeting them. Of course. And the idea that like that Michelle is from Plainville and Conrad is where he's from in Massachusetts is like that's underlined in the class tensions between these two families, right? That like Michelle is from a different class. I think my favorite scene that underlines that if it wasn't already apparent is when Michelle's mom like offers to stage Lynn's house and

Lynn's like I rent. And Michelle's mom's like, oh, owning a house isn't for everyone, you know, and it's just sort of this like very, very quick chilly. And I think this show is really smart in a number of scenes of establishing dynamics quickly and efficiently. My favorite, actually, example of this is when Lynn, the cops need Conrad's laptop, and Lynn goes to her ex-husband's house to get the keys and his parents are there. And it all falls apart really quickly. And you see how toxic the grandfather is. You see they're talking about church.

They're talking about their prejudices around mental health. All of that is just, like, baked. into this really quick fight that has tension to it because she just needs to get the keys and go. And I just really loved how subtly a lot of this stuff is just sort of like sifted into the story as we go. So we don't have to like sit down and talk about like, well, church was really important for some parts of this family or, you know, these are, this is how they felt about mental health. It's all sort of it, they're showing us not telling us time and time again. How did that work for you? Yeah, totally the same. Really, really well.

They're really, it's, it's quick, it's efficient. I even, I tease, but I think some of the back and forth with the detective and when we start getting to know the district attorney, like that's, that's pretty deft as well. All right, yeah, let's hit the Law & Order segment for you, the big Law and Order fan. We've got a head detective who's interest in the case, I want to talk to you about really quickly. And then we've got eventually, you know, in episode three, we meet I, I, Akash's character. the real life attorney here, Katie, Rayburn. And Katie, I love the introduction of Katie, which we get her in the Zumba class,

where she's trying to like out Zumba and much older woman. That tells you, I think, everything you need to know about this character. I loved that moment. I, Cash is one of my faves. And so I love her in this role. I think she does a great job throughout. What do you make of this copy? We have Pierre, played by Kelly O'Coyne, Scott Gordon as the cop.

What do you think is his fascination or his doggedness with this case when other people are just telling him to sort of drop it and let it go? I actually don't feel like I have an answer to that. And I will say, I'm not sure I want to know. This is maybe a me thing. It also might be a little bit of difficulty post. inventing Anna that frustrated me immensely with its desire for me to care about subcharacter's lives. What I am interested in, in terms of that plot line, are the intricacies of attempting to prosecute something like this. Where you want to get to the...

the court case. You want to get to the law. And this is, and this is like, again, this is very much a me thing. Like, I read a lot of nonfiction. A lot of this stuff. I think I probably am a little, like, tend to be further towards the, well, maybe it should just have been a documentary side of things when it comes to true crime stories. And there are a couple times when, and it's nothing to do, like the performances are

very good. But there are a couple times when we start getting into the, like, like, oh, well, is this going to be another rung on the ladder? And I'm like, I don't care. I really don't care. Unless you can tie that to, okay, this is a prosecutorial overreach because suicide in Massachusetts is not a criminal activity. Or like, I want to be in there. Like, I want to be in that world.

And I frankly, like, don't really care that much to be in the world of like what happened previously in these characters' developments that made them want to do X, Y, or Z. But hand to heart, that is maybe my own issue. No, like, and him, I think this is a good time for you to hit me with your, like, Rander theory of the case for the show and whether or not it's, it's a good hang for you. So, um, this is actually, I, I want to go back to Lynn for just one second.

I think that performance is so important because, I don't know about you, but like she's the character who, first of all, I think the work that, I think that performance is really, really important in not making the show seem like it's sensationalizing suicide because her pain is really, really profound. And they don't shy away from it. Like you just see what seems like a very real depiction of grief and the awfulness of that's happened. But also don't overwhelm you with it, you know, such that it's an unbearable to watch because it would be unbearable to hang with a woman fully in the grief. And so you get these

like moments like my one of my favorite is when she lays out four plates for pancakes and then just takes one away in an overhead shot where we don't even see her face. We just see that she was in the routine of laying out plates for all of her kids and then one of her kids isn't there anymore or, you know, the more overt stuff with the rabbit. But like, I think, um, again, it's all just sort of sifted in there, uh, for us to pick up. Okay, you were saying. So, but you have a lot of, you have a lot of empathy for her and a lot of, you know, I am rooting for this person to find peace in whatever way is possible here. I've gone back and forth on whether this is a real thing that I think.

Okay. I have a hard time, and maybe this is a very superficial way to process television, I have a hard time with shows where I don't really feel genuinely like I like anyone. Like where anyone seems like, and I don't think that like the character of Lynn does not have a chance to make you feel that way, right? because like you're rooting for her, but you've only ever seen her in the worst possible moments. And it's very difficult for someone

to be sort of like enthralling and charismatic and captivating in that way. And I don't know how something like that would fit into a show like this. But I think that's why moments like the glee scene are important because I don't know that I've, I think I've found this show impressive more than I've found it entertaining.

and the parts that have been most entertaining to me have had to do with the beginnings of the drama that takes place in the courtroom. But I don't think that that is the arena on which the most compelling performances and moments in the show have taken place. So I'm struggling a little bit with how to put those two things together. And if I can honestly say that I really like this show,

I definitely would say things like it's worth watching if you want to see the performances but I don't like that seems a little bit like damning with faint praise This is something that Sean and I've been talking a lot about in terms of like some of the Oscar movies

is like there's the difference between admiring a movie and loving a movie right? And so like you're admiring the show but maybe not loving the show is that what you're saying? I very much admire the show is what is definitely

true. Yeah, I'm a little on a different spot on the scale from you because what I really love in a show is the sort of like radical empathy challenge where it's like, all right, we're going to present you with someone that's going to be really hard for you to try to feel for them and we're going to try to make you feel for them. And I like that exercise. And this is. Yeah. For what it's worth, I was pretty familiar with this case. Like I used to work in Massachusetts. I went to, I had family there when this was happening. Like, I knew about this story in the moment and have been pretty aware of it. So maybe that's part of it.

I'm sure. Yeah, yeah. Is that it's not, it's not really giving me new information, though there are some elements of the treatment of it that, that I think is sort of makes you think in different ways. Yeah. And that's sort of some of the critique I had of we crashed or the dropout where I'm just sort of like, I know this story already really well. So, you know, give me more for why I'm watching this.

And then this is just a case where I miss this entirely. So I don't know what I was doing in 2017, but not paying attention to this is what I was doing. Watching Glee in 2014, possibly, maybe. Anything else you want to say about this show or these episodes specifically? I think that's it. I think that's what I got so far. Again, I do like, I think we've touched on this, but it is, it looks really great. I think it's really, really well shot.

I think the costumes are great. The aesthetics of it are, like, they feel almost just turned up 2% in a way that I think is really effective. Like, it's mostly sort of subtle and deft and efficient, but. they're not afraid to, you know, they're not afraid to give Michelle the big giant pep rally bullhorn when she's doing the fundraiser, right? Like, there are some moments like that.

Homers for Conrad. Yeah, yeah. Right. Like, they'll go there. Yeah. I appreciate that. And I think it, um, it makes its points,

but it also just makes it sort of visually stimulating. I think, and you can correct me if I'm wrong because you know the case so much better than I do. But I think what I really appreciate is that there does not seem to be any sort of idea of over sensationalizing this already very sensational story. Do you know what I mean? Like I think they're trying to tell it as sort of like quietly and honestly as they can.

Like you're right that the aesthetics are slightly over the top and that lends itself to like Michelle's glee infested mind, you know. But I think that the show self is not trying to give you like a dun, dun, dun, sort of moment throughout, you know, unless you're counting L. Fanning singing into a mirror, which is just, again, one of the best things I've ever seen on television. But yeah, I just, I like that. I know that Jesse Barron was really involved in this. And then he said that they used like a ton of his notes that he wasn't able, like a lot of stuff

that he wasn't able to put into his Esquire article made his way into the show. So there's just like a ton of detail. I don't know this for a fact, but it's. It feels to me like every single text message that they didn't change a word. And I found that to be true, I spot checked here and there. And it was true. Yeah. But I think, yeah.

They've changed very little. One thing that I'm curious, I believe in the real story, his father found his suicide notes, not his mother. That's true. Yeah. But giving Lynn that moment where there's a note for him, the father. a note for Michelle and there's no note for her. Yeah, that was a tremendous moment, but you're right. That's a, that's a fictionalization. Also, and again, this is only after three episodes. They have sort of hinted at his father being physically abusive, but that was not sort of like

a gray area in real life. And I think so far it's been that way, but I don't know if that holds. It is also, I will say, just in terms of like the pure television aspects. After three episodes, like you can point to some things that are left to be revealed. Like, if and how Lynn is going to give Michelle the note to her, we don't know how that's going to be handled. What's going to happen when Lynn finds out? you know, like to this point, Lynn has been, she's reserved,

but she has, she does have a connection with Michelle. So when she finds out the truth of, of the text messages, that tension is hanging over it. Yeah. Right. So I think that,

you know, and again, I think because I am sort of fascinated by this, like, how do you tackle the challenge of both telling an incites, like creating an insightful retelling of a true tragedy and also creating good compelling and potentially entertaining if we want to use that word television.

The pacing I think is good. Like they have things left to reveal. Yeah. And the episodes, the first two episodes are like around 45 minutes. So they're like they're not, they don't feel bloated at all. They feel pretty like swift. All right. Well, I think that's it for us on The Girl from Plainville.

This is like an admirer from Nora and a hard like for me and a hard love from both of us, I think, for El Fanning. You know, if you want to see. 10 out of 10. I think this is like one of the best things you'll probably see an actress do on television this year is what El Fanning is doing in this. So if you're an L Fanning completest, you know, please do check out the girl from Plainville. If you listen to all of this and haven't watched it yet, hats off to you. elsewhere in the Prestige TV podcast feed. We've got some great coverage of Atlanta.

Last week there was a great episode on Pachinko. You can hear Juliet Breakdown Bridgeton. Like there's a lot going on. So check it all out. Nora, where can folks find you? On the Ringer NFL show. I think we're on our offseason cadence of every Wednesday. And pretty soon.

I would watch a little feed called every single album. So I'll watch this space to tie us up here. That's exciting. You can find me on the Ringerverse Podcast over on the Big Pick here and there and on a newest show called Trial by Content. So that is, we are busy over here at the Ringer Podcast feed. This episode was produced by Erica Cervantes and we will see you next time. Bye.