The Prestige TV Podcast - The Incredible Popularity of 'Wednesday' and Episodes 1-4 Reactions

Episode Date: December 5, 2022

They're creepy and they're kooky, Charles and Jo are here to discuss the wildly popular and all-together ooky Netflix show 'Wednesday.' They react to the first four episodes and discuss the evolution of the Addams family through the years and what a modern-day adaptation brings! Hosts: Charles Holmes and Joanna Robinson Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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or at Sephora.com today. Welcome to the Prestige TV podcast, the show where we embrace our inner goth with Killer dance moves. Oh, I didn't do it right. There we go. I'm Charles Holmes. Today, I'm thrilled to be joined by Joanna Robinson to discuss

the Netflix hit Wednesday. Joanna, how are you feeling? I feel really bad, actually, that I'm just like, Joanna, watch eight episodes of television over your weekend. How was it? Listen, Charles, I would do more for you. For you, for the chance to talk to you? Absolutely.

especially when I like forced you to watch a vampire show for me a couple weeks ago so you know we call this even Stevens no I was telling you before we started recording that I like Wednesday is obviously massively popular

I don't know what to believe when Netflix starts you know making up its own metrics but like you know objectively popular show and sometimes I like to figure out if I can get away with not watching a popular show show just to like see if I can figure out everything I need to know by not watching

it. But when you were like do you want to watch Wednesday to talk to me about I was like, yeah, I'll watch Wednesday. You don't have to twist my arm. I'm here. I'll watch it. I want to ask you this though. After we just did interview with the vampire, now we're doing Wednesday, are we the outcast of the

TV prestige lunch table? Are we the golf table? Nobody wants to sit with us. We're just talking about the weirdo like vampires and werewolves. We're the spooky team. I love this for us. Mysterious and Uki. Yeah, I love it. But before we get into

our first thoughts on the first four episodes of Wednesday, let's get into some of the background for the show. It stars Jenna Ortega is Wednesday Adams, Christina Ricci as Marilyn Thornehill, Catherine Zeta Jones as Morticia, Louis Guzman is Gomez Adams. Wednesday was created by

Alfred Goff and Miles Malar, who are the creators of Smallville. It's executive produced by Tim Burton, who also directs the first four episodes. It's based on the Adams family by Charles Adams, a popular 1938 cartoon that debuted in the New Yorker before becoming a 1964 sitcom that aired on ABC for two seasons, and it spawned so many movies in TV shows that I've honestly forgotten about. But Wednesday specifically, similar to Smallville, is this kind of reimagining of the Adams family because it follows their eldest daughter after she's

expelled from her high school for defending her brother Pugsley from the water polo bullies by dumping piranhas in their pool. She's sent to her parents' alma mater, Nevermore Academy, which specializes in teaching supernatural creatures called Outcast. Soon, Wednesday is embroiled in a murder mystery that grips the entire town of Jericho, Vermont.

And before we get into the actual show, I want to know, like, what's your relationship with the Adams family, Joanna? Well, I just, like, have decided to embrace the fact that I'm, like, really not much younger than Van and give you, like, the old person take, which is, like, I

definitely watch the Adams Family TV series. Not what it originally aired, but like Nick and Knight, I think, used to do like reruns of the Adams family. So I definitely, it was like a double feature of the Adams family and the Munsters. And I would definitely like watch those shows. And I was really into them. John Aston, Sean Aston's dad as Gomez Adams is like freaking legend, incredible stuff. I remember my sister used to do a cousin A impression because she had really long hair because she could just like. like flip it forward and put sunglasses on top of it.

And then, yeah, and then the, the 90s films came out. And I definitely watched the first one a bunch of times. And I actually think I never saw the second one until a couple of Halloween's ago. I don't know, Adam's Family Values, which is the sequel, I don't know. I think, for whatever reason, I missed it at the time and I thought it was going to be like some dumb IP grab or whatever. But I actually really liked it. I just watched it a couple years ago, and I really, really liked it. So that's a really shoot.

And then I haven't seen it. I think there's been some, like, animated. I know there's been some animated. films, right, with Oscar Isaac as Gomez, stuff like that. I haven't watched any of those. But that's my, and then I've watched, I've read some of the, like, the original Charles Adams comics. I had, like, a book collection.

So I'm like, I'm in, but I'm not like, in, in. I wouldn't say I'm a diehard Adams family fan. I've been hearing for those people. I've been, like, looking at some reaction videos and someone's like, as a diehard Adam's family fan. I was like, I didn't know those existed. Charles, are you a dashed? Adam's family fan?

What's your relationship? No, but similar to you, I have way more of a connection to the 1964 ABC show than I do to the movies. Like, I guess I was, now I'm getting up there at age where, like, I still remember

when we did have cable, but there was just so many reruns of, like, classic shows like I dream of Jeannie or, or the Adams family or all of these just shows where I was just like, it was on. So I, from a very young age,

like I just, the Adams family was in the ether It would just be something my parents were watching or it would just be on during dinner. Saw some of the cartoons. But it was funny watching Wednesday how much, like, I can tell why the Adams family has continued to be a thing. Not just because Hollywood is in love with IP. Right. Because the basic jokes of the Adams family are just so primal and so simple.

The biggest one that I was just like, oh, I pointed at the screen when I saw, like, Louis Guzman and Catherine Zaddy, Jones playing Mortisha Gomez. I was just like, wife guy joke. That's a wife guy joke. I was like, oh, that is something that's been funny since the 1930s. Same, like, if you want to list out all of the Adams family jokes, they're very simple. It's like, normies come over to the Adams family's house. Something weird happens.

Normie says something is like weird or terrible or wrong. And the Adams family is like, actually, we love murder. Actually, we love being in coffins. It's just, the jokes are like so fundamentally dumb, but I laugh at them regardless. Like, I started rewatching the movie from the 90s. And like, me and my girlfriend were just like giggling the whole time. I'm just like, these are just very basic jokes that just age well no matter the decade. Why do you think the Adams family is something we continually go back to over and over again?

I think there's, so like Charles Adams, my understanding is that Charles, again, not a like die, die, die hard. out of his family fan, so I'm not pretending to be an expert. But my understanding is that Charles Adams creates this comic to, you know, hold up a mirror to the hypocrisy of mainstream American culture and, like, mainstream upper crust. And it's sort of like, look how actually, who looks ridiculous in the culture clash between the normies, as they call them, the muggles, if you want to put it that way, the normies and the quote unquote outcasts, and it's the normies every time, they look completely unhinged compared to the calm, loving family that is, you know, the Adamses.

And so I think there's always like a perverse pleasure in that to see someone, especially like, you know, somewhat blonde and dressed in pink or whatever. Though the blonde who dresses in pink in the show is really fun. But like bump up against like that cool detached gauthiness. So I think that's always fun And then it's just like There is just something Core and elemental

To this family That loves each other And centers around a culture that exists Entirely in their family unit You know what I mean? Like this show Busts down the walls of that You know, because it gives us an entire like world

Of Outcasts But I always loved this sort of like Us versus Them Or like, what happens in our house is totally normal to us. And if you come in here, you're the weirdo. And I think that concept has kind of endless possibilities. Yeah, and I think Charles Adams created this when the nuclear family, or at least our conception

of what an American family is supposed to be, is starting to really, really become a thing in the American consciousness. And I think that is something that is really never ages because we still are dealing with that in all of our TV. show is like, what's a real family? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I also wanted to know because of that, who is Wednesday for

from a genre point, from a target demographic? Because it's been reported that the show beat Stranger Things 4 for the most hours viewed in a week. This is only for English language TV shows. I think I'm similar to you when I see the big like trade celebration

from Netflix. Like, look, this is one of our biggest shows ever. I'm always just like, I don't really try. Trust the numbers. Says you. Says you, Netflix. You know what I mean?

Like, that's the thing that started, it's, it's made me crazy for years. Like, it's a popular show. I'm not taking it away. I'm just like, I have no idea of, like, contextualizing how popular Wednesday actually is. But let's just say, I've seen it. It's bombarded TikTok. It's bombarding my feeds. I do think this is a very, very popular show.

Jenna Ortega, who plays Wednesday Adams, got 10 million followers on Instagram. in the last week, it is very popular. But I want to know what, like, this show is doing so many things genre-wise. And I could not understand, like, I think I understand the target demographic, but I want to hear from you first.

Like, who is the show pitched for? Well, I think, so when you think about, like, four-quadrant storytelling of, like, things that are for men, for women, for older generations, for younger generations, and, like, people who take something like this, and IP that people are familiar with and try to repurpose it,

they're trying to hit multiple quadrants at once, right? So they're trying to draw in the teens, the Riverdale teens, the Chilling Adventures, the Sabrina teens, right? Those teens, they're trying to hit, like, the older generation above that, which is like loves Veronica Mars

or Buffy the Vampire Slayer or something like that. They're trying to hit people who have nostalgia for the 90s movies. They're trying to hit people who have nostalgia for the 60s TV show. Like, there's so many nostalgia plays that they're making alongside, let's just make a new

teen. Plus, like, hey, is JK Rolling too problematic for you to feel like you can enjoy Harry Potter anymore? Well, we've sent Wednesday to Hogwarts, so, like, you know, you can enjoy that with a clean conscience. And so I, who is it for

is for so many people at once? And I think that's where it runs into some trouble in the back half. Where I don't know that it is like as assured in tone as it could be.

But Jen Ortega, I just want to say no, I'll say that for later. But I don't know. Who do you think? Is this show for you, Charles,

Mr. C.W. Mr. Vampire Diaries? Charles Holmes? It is. But it was like, to your point, the show was so

tonally all over the place because it took me a while. I had to think and I'm like, oh, okay, they're doing a young adult. show. Like this is where I think generally TV, TV or movies that are about teens, either, especially set in high school, are usually on different polls. Either the poll is like,

adults are making this show and they think teens are having way more sex doing way more drugs than they probably actually are in real life. And that is like a euphoria or a riverio, you know, where it's just like, it's like a 40, 50 year old like man or woman's version or, just like, man, these teens are out of control. I love that you said euphoria and Riverdale in the same sentence, as if, like, Riverdale's jingle, jangle, problem. And then, like, Zendaya's real drug problem are, like, in the same bucket. I love that.

To be fair, Wednesday has a lack of probably the sex appeal that something like Riverdale where I'm just like, they had Archie taking off his shirt just in band practice. It's just like, y'all want to see some abs now? And I'm like, okay, y'all know who it's more. Archie's like, I can play these. Watchboard abs. And on the other side of your teen shows, you have like, or movies, you have something to your point,

like a Harry Potter, which is very much like, by the time horniness gets introduced, it was like, I remember reading the books and watching the screen. I'm like, oh, this is weird. This is like a young adult book that is growing up with its audience. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I was like at an age where I was like, oh, no, Harry's my age. So I guess I'm interested in girls. So it makes it makes sense that they're now interested in girls as well. And Wednesday is in this weird kind of middle ground almost where it doesn't, it wants to be Harry Potter. But it also feels in the mode of a show like Riverdale in a way that I was just like, to your point, this is four quadrants where I was like, well, I guess do teens really care that this is directed by? Burton? Probably not. Do they have any interest in Guzman or Zeta Jones or Christina Richie being the original Wednesday? Probably not. This is for the 40-year-old parents who are just like, oh, I grew up with this, you know, in the 90s, like, let's watch this. And then the kids are like,

Jenna Ortega, you were in a Disney Channel show and I saw you and scream. Like, yeah. So I'm like, maybe it's for everyone. That's the thing is like, I think it's trying to be for everyone. And then, I mean, and then is enormously popular. Like, my, I want to be like, and then winds up being for no one. And I'm like, who are you talking about, Joanna? The show is incredibly popular. And I just want to say that there is like a lot that I really enjoyed about this show. And, and, but I think it falls apart if you don't have Jenna Ortega at the center of it.

So, so let's get into our first reactions of Wednesday, because I will say I would, immediately charmed after the first episode where I didn't expect it. It was like, at first I'm like, okay, they're doing another Adams family thing. Like, cool. And I think Jenna Ortega very, very quickly wins you over with the charm, how she is quite literally just born to play this role, where anytime she's on screen, I'm like, oh, no, this is the show. Like, this is, Jenna Ortega was an actress before doing a lot of things.

But you can point to this. It was similar watching Jeremy Allen White in The Bear when you're like, oh, no, he's going to be a star now. Like, this is like, the show works because of what he's doing when he's in the center of the frame. And when I was watching Jenna Ortega as Wednesday, I'm like, oh, no, she's going to have so many A24 scripts on her, like, on her desk tomorrow. Because when she's on screen, she is so electric.

So the first four episodes of Wednesday I was very taken with. Yeah. But as Wednesday becomes more Harry Potter, it becomes more about the school. It becomes more about the mystery. And Jenna Ortega's in it less and less. I found my love of the show. Like whenever she's on screen, I'm just like, ah, funny. She's just that's some funny.

This is great. Whatever it was just like, we're with the Nevermore teens who are like hooking up. I was just like, all right, well, this isn't what I want. How did you feel about this show? Yeah. Well, so Jenna, it's funny. So, like, I had, I did not know she was a Disney kid, and I had not seen her scream movies, too, right? I think. But she was in this movie called The Fallout that was at South by a couple years ago that was so good. And she was so good in it. It's about the aftermath of a school shooting. Keep it light on a Monday morning, Joanna. But, like, she is incredible in that. When I saw that film, I was like, this chick could do anything. And then I saw that the next thing she was doing was Wednesday on Netflix. And I was like, no, dude.

I was like, Jenna, you are so talented. You can do anything. You're doing Wednesday on Netflix. And I think I was wrong because the thing is, is like, the show is definitely good enough that you're not like, oh, man, she's stuck on Wednesday now. Like, it's good enough that she's on it. And then it's like, to your point, exposing her. to millions upon millions of people who are just sort of like, who's this, babe?

And like, oh, my God, she's incredible. And the thing is, it's like, she can do, she's so good at this, but she can do so much more than just this. And that's what's really exciting about her. So as a star vehicle for her, someone who I am, like, intensely rooting for, I can't help but be, like, excited that this is such a hit. And then everyone loves her so much in it. But like, and it sounds like it does statement to say, like, without Jenna Ortega as Wednesday, the Wednesday show doesn't work. But, I mean, I think you look at something like The Chilling's Adventures of Sabrina, a show that I really wanted to love because it was based on a comic book series that I really loved. But I think that Karen Shipko, as much as I loved her on Madman, was like never quite viving for me in that role.

on the other hand, if you look like something like Chris and Bell and Veronica Mars, like this shows a lot to Veronica Mars too. If you look at Chris and Bell, that's such a breakout, fantastic performance. And Chris and Bell's forever, no matter what else she does, she is also still Veronica Mars. And so I think Jenna Ortego will probably always kind of be Wednesday Adams now,

no matter what she does. And that's okay. But yeah, she's amazing in this. And then everything else around her, and especially as you say, is it becomes more of an ensemble show. So for me, my two favorite, like, things that happen in the show is the very opening when she dumps a bag, bags of piranhas in the pool with the bully jocks, right?

And then when she goes and works at, like, the Pilgrim World and is, like, you know, talking to German tour. about the fudge and stuff like that. You know what I mean? Yeah. And then like blowing up the statue and the town. Like that's what Wednesday Adams should be doing. It's very much like they took the Thanksgiving pageant sequence from Adam's family values.

And like that's those are the notes that they're hitting in those moments. And that's what I want to see Wednesday doing is like disrupting the normies. Right. And I almost wonder, I have to wonder like would I have liked the show even better if it had if it had been about Wednesday Adams at a normal, quote-unquote, boarding school where she is the one outcast. Because, like, what is it due to the concept to take some, like, this idea that it's Adam's families are the weirdos and they're surrounded by normal people and then take Wednesday and put her

and surround her by other outcasts. Like, it feels like it dilutes the concept a little bit. And I much prefer it when it's just like Wednesday, walking around, tormenting some woman from Scottsdale, Arizona. who works at Pilgrim World, exposing the hypocrisy of having a place called Pilgrim World that celebrates as, like, puritanical witch-hunting bullshit, you know what I mean? Or putting piranhas in a pool with jocks. You know, I love that for her, for all of us.

So I think that tendency to want to give us Hogwarts on top of it sort of messes with that balance a little bit. I don't know, what do you think? Oh, I couldn't agree with you more. The first thing I said, my girlfriend and I were watching it, and I was like, I would love this show so much more if instead of a Nevermore Academy being like a place of outcast where there's werewolf and vampires, it was just normal people because the magic of the show for me is like when General Ortega goes into town and she's in a coffee shop and she's

surrounded by normal people or every, I laughed every single time she bust into the sheriff's office because it is like she has she has such an attitude and she's so good at her job that like, all of the normies around her have to contend with, okay, she's weird, but she's also very talented and most of the time not wrong, or she's saying the thing I don't want to say out loud, which is hilarious, but to your point,

when you make everybody around Wednesday in Outcast in one way or another, it's just like, oh, it dims, it dims the juxtaposition where, to your point, I fell in love the moment she dumped the piran is in the pool because you're like, oh, this is a fantasy. This is what most kids in high school wish they could have done. And she's stark black surrounded by all of this bright color. The minute she goes to Nevermore Academy, it's like, black, black, black, black, black, black, black.

And I'm like, all right. Which brings me to my next point. Yeah. Why do we think Tim Burton agreed to direct the first four episodes of Wednesday, be an executive producer? He's been attached to the Adams family, Adams family movies and different things for years that just never got made. and he said something interesting in Empire

where he's like, when I read the script, it just spoke to me about how I felt in school and how you feel about your parents, how you feel as a person. It gave the Adams family different kind of reality. It was an interesting combination. Do we think Tim Burton was sincere with him doing Wednesday

or is this director bullshit? Because he told the New York Times that he did not have a quote, burning desire to do television. Which I'm just like, part of me was just like, you, TB, get your check. Like, that Netflix money must have been hitting. But part of me was like, what was it about the show?

That's the person. Like, all right, y'all got me. Well, I think that, like, you know, since he was supposed to make the original 90s Adam's family thing, and like the Adam's family property plus Tim Burton is like a match made in heaven theoretically, right? Like, it's wild that he didn't make the 90s films. So, yeah, and I was watching this and I was like, oh, he just like, especially the early Nevermore uniform stuff and all this. I was like, oh, he's just doing Miss Peregrine's home for peculiar children, a story that he already did, you know.

I think he brought his costume designer that he always works with onto the show to. Oh, yeah, broad stripes, wide stripes. Yeah, I was just like, oh, this is, you're getting one. You're just like, yeah, I've been here, guys. We got this. That being said, I mean, like, we're only talking about the first half of the show in this episode, and we'll talk about the back half in a subsequent episode of Prestige. But, like, I think there's a demonstrable drop-off from the episodes that Tim directs

versus the back half of the season. He directs the first four, and then there's a drop-off. So, you know, we have to give Tim credit for, like, something that he's bringing to these first four episodes in terms of that like spookyness or that deadpan quality or that like

you know he's got that like 1950s obsession that he carries around with him so like a character like weems, Gwendolyn Christie's character is sort of like kind of a perfect Tim Burton character where there's this just sort of like gleaming 50s

perfection with this like icy scary core of menace underneath. You know what I mean? So there's a lot of... But is it bullshit? I don't know. I mean, I'll be honest with you. I'd much rather he'd be doing this

than some of the movie stuff that he's been doing lately. So, you know, and I don't know that we're ever going to get back the Tim Burton of our childhood, who was, like, really into stop motion animation and stuff like that. But, yeah, I mean, I guess... I don't know. I don't think it's bullshit. I think he's probably always thought, like,

I should do this. What do you think? I don't think it's bullshit as well. It was just, it was interesting knowing that, like, I believe Tim Burton wanted to do a stop motion, Adams family, which they were like,

eh, we're okay. Which, honestly, a stop motion, Tim Burton, Adam's family would have been amazing. I more so meant was it director bullshit in terms of, like, it just spoke to me. He's at this point where it's just,

like, if he wanted to make an Adams family Netflix spin off of his own, he could. He is coming into a world where this seems a lot more indebted to the Smallville of it all. This is very much reminded me of that first season of Smallville where it's like, we are taking an iconic character and we are throwing them into a teen melodrama. And part of me is just like, Burton can do all of those things. There is, like, that is Burton's career. But there's a sense of like, you can't control this where it's like the last half,

the episodes five through eight, I was just like, Burton directed two movies worth. These are our episodes. So like he directed four hours of this. Doesn't seem like he had much control on the back half of it. So mine, I was just like,

why would he kind of seed so much control to a show that's not really going to be his? Yeah, it's not his show. Right? He's credit as an EP. I'm sure he has something to do with the casting and the design. But like, ultimately it is Goffin-Mullar's show, right? And it will be going forward because, like, we're certainly getting more, given how popular this season is.

So, yeah, I think we have to think of it more as, like, a director for hire in that sense. And it's like, I think people are thinking of it as a Tim Burton show, but I don't think you should think of it as a Tim Burton show, you know? But yeah. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound terseptitide may be able to help. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity. Or some adults with overweight who also have weight-related medical problems to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 men,

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Limited time offer. So I think the most successful choice that they actually did, which was genius, was making Wednesday a Nancy Drew, Veronica Morris-esque figure is so fun because immediately,

I was reading some interviews where the showrunners were essentially like they both have teenage daughters and they're like, you don't see a lot of teenage shows where the teenage girl is just good at her. her job from the start. A lot of them are like ramping up to them being like who they are

meant to be on this hero's journey where it's like at like Wednesday Adams knows Kung Fu. She knows how to fucking do all this shit. Like you know, she can, she can fence. She can keep bees. She can do anything. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, I did think it was very successful being like, oh no, she is just as if not smarter than this sheriff. Like she is the only person who is like really can unfold this murder mystery. The thing that I actually bumped up against where I was like, I would have much rather

this been a show about Wednesday tracking down a serial killer from her high school or from the local town. The minute it was like more supernatural than it was murder mystery, I was just like, hmm, interesting. Like once you see the hide, the big CGI hide, I was like,

oh, okay. I thought that this was going to be a little bit more like grounded. And it was not. You're like, give me your gritty Riverdale. No, I mean, what I will say about the hide

is that I hope they get a budget bump in season two to give us some better CG because that hide CG is rough. Is it not? Is it not rough? I was like, this is not the design I would have gone with.

But, well, I was going to ask you, I was going to ask you, we're about to quarter flip. quarter flip is a term imported over from the ringerverse a network that Charles and I record on. But I was curious if people were going to pull Mary Sue stuff around Wednesday given that she's good at everything.

Like, do we need to see her struggle more? And we'll talk about this a little bit more of the back half. But like, I don't know. Are you quarter flipping anything about how good Wednesday is and everything? The reason I'm not is because I actually think it speaks to her character in a very fundamental way where it's like, Like, the difficulty of writing a character like Wednesday Adams is that if she is so nihilistic, if she doesn't believe in anything, if she is so negative, it's like where are you supposed to go? Like, is she supposed to become more loving?

Is she supposed to become more positive? And does that fundamentally change what makes the character and Jenna Ortega's performance so electric? What I think making her so good at everything does is that she actually doesn't need a lot of these people in terms of just like for help. She can do everything for herself. But the challenge is, is just like, what can other people provide for her emotionally or mentally that she might need? And I think it doesn't make her a Mary Sue character because it's like, that's actually her weakness as we go throughout the season is the fact that, like,

she's so good that sometimes she thinks that other people can keep up with her and they get hurt. Or everybody who's close to her ends up. honestly, like, she's so toxic. Like, the best way I can describe it is, if you've ever had a friend who's, like, really good at everything, they're the jock, they're really good, they're in AP classes, they're in everything. There's a toxic sense around them. Charles, are you talking about me right now? Am I your toxic friend? I'm just kidding.

Were you good at everything? No, no, no, no, no, no, I don't know. I don't know. Where, like, I was in high school, I was surrounded by those people where there was a toxic air around them where it's just like, you're so. good at everything and everything comes to you so naturally that there's a part of you that cannot understand what it is to not be good, what it is to want people to like you, what it is to be like, I don't see this mystery, why are you so fixated on it? And that's what I actually like about the show. I guess it just would have been more interesting if there wasn't

like, Wednesday's the chosen one. She's like mystery. She's the key. That's another buffering. Um, yeah, the, I will say, I think where the show is most successful, this tangentially related, but I think where the show is most successful is in two relationships. Three, if you count, um, thing, which I definitely want to because I think thing absolutely rules and I love the way it's used in the show. Um, but Wednesday Mortisha, right, this mother-daughter thing that they set up from episode one of like, I don't want to be you. I want to be me. I don't want to go to school where you were this, where you were. Like, her mom is the toxic one in her life in terms of, like, you were the best of everything. And I have to go live under your shadow at the school that you were the queen of, you know, sort of thing.

And then her relationship with Enid, her roommate. And, like, you know, that relationship of, like, how do you let someone into your life without sacrificing who you are in the process? You know what I mean? We start this season with, like, a duct tape down the line in the middle of their room. the beautiful visual of the, like, the giant window in their dorm room, which is super colored on one side, and then, like, you know, monochrome on the other side for Wednesday. How do we, how do we, like, do you need other people? But I love your point of, like, don't abandon people on your pursuit of something

because something Wednesday does over and over and over again. Which is just like, you'll be fine. You back at the school. and you're like Wednesday. So, yeah, be more mindful of the people around you. But also, yeah, open yourself up, but don't lose who you are, I think is an important thing as well. Because, like, can Wednesday and Eden find common ground without Wednesday having to, like, trade her black and white in for pink, you know, something like that.

So I don't know if I'm reading into this too much, but, and it might, my opinion might be colored, because there's a very cute picture circulating on social media of Jenna Ortega being at an event. Someone's holding up a queer flag and she gets really excited and she points to it. She points to the flag and that she points to herself. And many have taken that as a hint that she's talking about her own sexuality.

And like, is there queer subtext to this show between her and Enid and this kind of like, Wednesday having to like hide certain parts of who she is? from a world that doesn't accept her, while also trying to figure out what it means to. Like, I do think there is this connection where, even if it's not romantic love, there is this love between her and Enid of,

like, to your point, learning to love someone who was so outside her realm of understanding, everything that Enid does, she doesn't get, but there's this fundamental connection that they have. Even when they're on screen, you're like, oh, no, this is friendship, where I can't describe it probably the best in words. But there is this fundamental thing going on with them where they make each other better.

Yeah, I mean, there's the thing that happens in the back half that we'll talk about in the second episode that I think is like a real weird misstep on like Wednesday trying to engage with the concept of queerness. But like I guess what I will say is like I am surprised at a place like Evermore, at a place of outcasts that we don't have. any queer team couples on this show at all that's wild to me. And so I'm happy, I mean, I will definitely say that I think Jen Ortega has the most chemistry with Emma Myers who plays in his and is Sinclair. Like, I think that that is because the guys are just not doing it at all on this show. We're going to save that for... Yeah, for episodes...

Five through eight, because let me just say, I'm putting this on y'all people because my white boy hunks from CW shows were built different back in the day you gotta talk to your people Joanna I was very disappointed I have to answer for like the boring porridge boys that are on Wednesday

I don't know I know where's demon solitaire would you need him but like the yeah so like I can completely understand why people would sort of build try to like build a

ship around Wednesday and Edid given that there's like actual chemistry between those actresses, you know, sexual or friendly or not, there's just like acting chemistry between these two girls where there doesn't seem to exist any elsewhere.

Yeah. Does that answer your question? Sort of. We'll talk about it more. Also, let's talk about the cast because a thing that I realized that was like tonally weird about the show is that I think that the adults, for the most part,

are very good. I think Catherine Zeta Jones as Morticia is good. Like, I laughed. Gwendolyn Christie's Weems was very, very funny. And like, you can tell they're adult actors, where even if you, maybe you don't like this or

like that, like, I'm like, all right, they're doing the thing. And then the Nevermore kids are like, I was like, whoof, what happened? It was, and it was his weird thing where I couldn't tell if it was a mixture of the acting or the writing where Wednesday is so electric. Wednesday, Jenna Ortega has unlocked something so fundamentally about like how this character ticks, how to say these one-liners, how to make her both likable, and make her someone that you're just like, oh, man, I don't want to be your friend. And when she's surrounded with the other kids at Nevermore, I can't tell if it's because their characters aren't fleshed out as much on the page.

whether they don't have enough meat to get into. But it was this weird juxtaposition where I was like, why is Jenna Orteke like running so many circles around these kids who, like, to be fair, feel like they're from a CW show in the worst way? Yeah. Or like an ABC family show. Like, I don't like, it's bizarre to me. So we have, so the other kids were largely talking about.

about Bianca, who is like our mean girl. Enid, her roommate, werewolf. And then the two love interests, Tyler, who's the son of the sheriff. And then Xavier, who is like long-haired, supposed to be love interest from Wednesday. But don't forget about Ajax the Gorgon. Oh, Ajax, yes. Ajax the Gorgon. And we have Eugene from the Hummers.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, you don't. But that's, I mean, that poor kid. The Colin Crevy. of everything. And then Yoko. Ajax, by the way, Ajax the Gorgon is like when I was like, oh yeah, they're doing Percy Jackson too.

They're trying to play all the hits. So they're trying to give us like some Percy Jackson vibes in here too. You know, what's a magical academy that we can send this kid to? Yeah, I mean, I want to talk to the casting director. Did they just spend all of their like energy on the adults? Because like honestly. I was worried they spend their whole budget. I was like, see, Tim Burton.

Catholic Zeta Jones and like did they kind of like get like your whole budget and you're just like oh man like we still haven't cast the Nevermore kids yeah that save your kids is that kid like related to someone I have questions about him

no he's not really an NEPO kid not really I don't know what to tell you about these kids I don't think it better can I tell you instead my favorite Louis Guzman story Yes, please. I was at, I was monitoring a panel for a show that he was on.

And it was like, I like monitoring panels because you go on stage and I sort of like black out and go into a fugue state and do my job and then get off stage and I don't even like stress about it. What's stressful is the like 30 minutes beforehand where you have to make small talk with the other panel people backstage. And sometimes it's longer. Anyway, I was stuck only because of my social awkwardness, not because of Louis Gussman, who's a joy, talking, like making small talk with him for a while. And he wound up telling me all about his, like, massive organic garden and how he and his daughter, like, grow all these vegetables. And then they also, like, it's California legal. So I feel fine saying it, like, really love weed and love growing all of their vegetables. And he's like, have you ever had like a pan fried fiddlehead first?

and he was telling me all about how he loves to make these big organic, like, veggie-based meals. And I was just like, Lukezman, you rule. Absolutely rule. Are you just sharing how Louise Guzman is a national treasure? Because in my mind, I make it a point to not worship Eddie celebrities, but any single time he's on his screen, I'm always like, man, he must be a great guy to chill with. He's a good guy. Like, I just know he would be a great guy to just like, grab a beer with it. It's like the best version of that like awkward small talk I've ever had in my life where I was just like, tell me more about your fertilizer process.

I'm genuinely interested. But I think that like Louis Guzman, I want to ask you a little bit about the like latinification of the Adams family, this like really interesting legacy that it has because Charles Adams, the creator, is a white man. And then my understanding is that he thought the Adams family patriarch should be called Rappelli. That was his name. And it was sort of like the TV show, the first TV show, the 1960s TV show that went with Gomez. And calling him Gomez Adams is what, like, sets you in the direction of, like, making this sort of a Latino-coded family. Because John Aston, who played Gomez Adams, also a white man. But then he got Raulia playing Gomez in the 90s.

and that, like, you know, brings us closer to where we are, Oscar, Isaac. And then we've got Jenna Rtega and Louis Guisman, Catherine Zeta Jones, who is not Latina. She's Welsh, but she cosplayed as Latina for a lot of the 90s. So, you know, like, there we go. And, like, and Gomez is so interesting because it's like, I was reading the interview where John Astin was like, yeah, I was given full rain to do the sort of, like,

hot-blooded Latin lover thing. But I'm like, but Gomez-Ladams is always saying, like, speaking Italian to Mortisha. I was like, I don't know. This is like a little like melting pot, I guess, of a family. But I just think it's interesting to like that it's that it's sort of evolved and evolved and evolved into the space where like the otherness of the Adams is is also now kind of like Latino coded also.

I don't know. What do you think about that? So I think it is in step with something that's happening in Hollywood a lot where it's like, sometimes I do think it is good spirit. And sometimes I think it is just like, I don't even know the right word. But like, Mindy Callan has a Velma show coming out that is also going to be about a beloved piece of IP that is not going to be white anymore. Same thing with Wednesday. And the show, to give it credit, did work with a Mexican creative consultant to ensure that the scripts reflected Jenna's heritage because she's Mexican and Puerto Rican.

I think my issue with the show racially is that, like, you can't have your cake and eat it too, where sometimes I feel like the show slips in that this is like a Latinx family. Like, we'll sprinkle it, but it's never actually delved into into what it means for Wednesday to be of Mexican or in Puerto Rican descent. Like, that's never, and maybe it didn't need it.

But then as I had, I definitely had this. read some people who also felt this way, I was just like, okay, so you want to be progressive in making the Adams family, making the patriarch Mexican or Mexican Puerto Rican. Then I'm like, why is every black person in this, an asshole? Like, I was just like, every black person in this, I was like, what is going on? Like, every episode, the fucking, the mayor of the town is the owner of Pilgrim World, which is like, like this, this weird, like,

festival place that is, like, celebrating colonizers. And then his son is bullying the outcast and, like, raining down red paint at their dance. And then Bianca, who is a siren, he was like, she gets fleshed out a little bit more as the season goes. But, like, she's supposed to be this wily,

like, sexual creature, this siren. who people only like her because she has these powers. And I'm just like, I think there is like, there's weird racial implications to making a black woman a siren when there's not that many other black women in the show. So I was just like, this show is all over the place. I think, you know, so this Bianca character is really interesting.

And we can talk about her a little bit more in the second episode as well because like a lot of, you know, like Cordelia and Buffy, like a lot of like mean girl characters in a teen show, she's on like sort of a trajectory. But like she reminds me so much of this character from Chilling Adventures and Sabrina Prudence. Only that actress was like a thousand times better in that role. But I was just then thinking about like this idea of making the young black women in the cast the bullies and how it's sort of like, I think sometimes it feels like the person, the creator thinks they're being really progressive when they're like, you know, the bullies aren't just like the white blonde girls anymore. Like, ooh, like, because being the bully indicates that you're at the top of the social strata,

right? I mean, so like, oh, actually we're like elevating the black characters by making them the ones that are punching down. But I'm like, I don't know. I think, I mean, it reminds me of, there was a terrible TV adaptation of the film Heathers, where they made all the, you. Mean Girl Heather's, these, like, marginalized characters, the gay characters, the overweight characters, like, whatever. Those were the bullies.

And I was like, you're not getting it at all. And I'm not saying that, like, you can't have a black character or any non-white character be the, like, rich girl bully prototype from a teen show. I just think it can be a little lazy. and when you think you're doing something and you're not at the same time. Does that make sense? That makes perfect sense because I'm not arguing that,

like, yes, I think not only should there be more just people of color in these shows in general, they should be any characters that they want. They should be the best actors. But I do think that there is a thing where it's like most of the kids at Nevermore are white.

And like most of the, most of the people that you see that are in heroic, well, roles are white. So if you make all the black people assholes, or if you make the mayor, the owner of like, hey, like, of perpetuating, like, this colonizer myth,

you need somebody who's like, are we sure we? A counter narrative. Yeah. Yeah, we want to do this. I think also what is very valid is like people, people who don't, who aren't like, you know,

covering the show in a podcast or whatever, so I have no reason to dig into, like, who is actually the creative mind behind this? They're just like, oh, this is Tim Burton's Wednesday. And Tim Burton has a terrible reputation well-earned for, you know, not casting anyone who was in white and his stuff. So I think people are like primed to be like, what are you up to Tim Burton? What are you doing? And like, you know, at the end of the day, I don't think this is Tim Burton's decision necessarily, like the racial makeup of this cast.

But I just do think it's interesting. Like, I'm all for, I mean, I'm all for. the Adams as being like as Latin, you know, Latin X as like anyone wants to make them. I just think you then need to really do it, you know, or not, you know. Because here's the thing, sometimes I do agree with you that like when I was watching it, because sometimes they would, they would reference it. They would reference that Goody Adams, who is the ancestor for Wednesday is of Mexican descent. And they'll mention it, but there's no...

Sometimes I was just like, where's the other thing? Like, how does this add to it instead of you just being like, I'm like, see, her ancestors Mexican. All right, on to the next thing. And I'm like, wait, what? Stay there for just a minute. I think it reminds me of like our conversations around an interview with a vampire where, you know, they make a, you know, the lead character in that show, Blackman.

And then they're like, and we're going to actively all the time engage with that choice that we've made and how that impacts the story that we're telling. You know, so I think, you know, it's just watching the Adam's family over these various iterations, a TV show, a movie, animated films, this, there's almost this like slow creep of Latinx identity that is like, you know, that is like, that is like, that makes it sound like is a bad thing. I think it's a good thing. But again, I think you just need to like engage with that choice.

actively if you're going to do it. Absolutely. But one choice that they did go full. They engaged with it is Wednesday's dance at the Raven. The Goo Goo Muck by the Cramps is climbing up the charts. The TikTok teens have found their hero at prom. It is Wednesday. This was actually when I could be like,

I'm a critic being like, look at all these people having fun at this. And I was like, no, this is. actually the type of show I want. Like, this is like the cheesiness factor. This is the weirdness. This is the show. Like, this is to me where I was like, because it was so funny when like she lights up, like Wednesday lights up when the Gougu mucks come on.

And then immediately the next song after it's do A Lipa. And she's like, just wants nothing to do with it. And I'm like, oh, no, this is a show. This is like the, if you're going to be a cheesy CW show, you need the dance. I could have done without the kid. hairiness of it all. I could have done with all. But I do think that

this is very funny. Are you, are you, so you're my, you're my music friend. Are you a fan of the cramps as a music artist? No. No. No. No. No.

Okay, so the Gugamuck is a fun, is a really fun song. I will say people are, right? I mean, it's a fun song. Oh, yeah. It's a great song. I'm just saying, like, I didn't, I wasn't bumping Gougu mucks before this. I'm not going to lie.

Right. No. Yeah. I just want to recommend to people, if you like Gougumuck by the Crams, try human fly. That song absolutely rules and I hope they use it in season two. Human, human fly.

If I play that for my goth friends at our next gathering, will they be happy? Yeah. Got it. And they will do a new viral dance. It's funny because you had mentioned to me that the dance had gone viral on TikTok.

I had only seen one. one video and it was this like really great cut of Gena Ortega doing like one of the moves that she does like one of the more subtle moves and then cutting to the little girl who played Wednesday in the 1960s doing the same move. It's a sort of like 1960s like half twist half frug kind of move. It's not like one of the wilder moves that she does. But when I

saw it when you when you put it in the note that this was like a viral dance, I then went through TikTok and was like watching all the videos and I was like, oh, this is so fun that people are doing this. Like, I love, I love a TikTok dance trend, honestly. Northwest, I think, has most famously done, like, redone the Wednesday day. Yeah.

Okay. It's a whole thing. And then there was like an article on BuzzFeed where like Goths were coming to like Ortega's defense because like, I guess some people were making fun of her dance or like, Ortega went on Instagram was like, no, like I actually was studying how Gauss dance in the 80s and 90s.

Like, hop off. stop. And I was just like, this is so funny because I'm just like, this is a very, like, I'm like, this is the world in 2022 where it's just like, I watched that dance. And I was just like, oh, like cute, like cute dance from a from a Netflix show. And then I log on there are people like, fuck that dance. Like, what's happening? Not the cuckooooch drama. Oh, no. So we're going to talk about episodes five and eight. We're going to be back. Wrapping this up. Yeah. Why do we think that Wednesday has become so popular? Because this is a show when I was watching it

where I could understand its popularity. But Netflix has had a wild year up and down where it's like, it was like, oh, everybody was saying this is the end. We missed our fucking quarterly, blah, blah, blah. And this just kind of reminded me like Netflix, like all of these streamers are always one hit away. Or like what they deem a hit is kind of sometimes fully in their control in terms of like how they spin it.

So like, why, like, can we talk about like, what is it about this show that even Bill Simmons? The reason we're doing this, he's like, Wednesday's become a thing. Like, that's what he takes. He's becoming a thing, guy. It's kind of what happens on the prestige fee sometimes. Bill's like, guys, can't ignore Wednesday.

It's too popular. It's a great question. Thanks so much for asking me. No, I think that part of it is we're in a little, like when they dropped it was a perfect, timing because it was right after Rings of Power and House the Dragon wrapped up. So, like, people are sort of, like, searching around for their genre fix. They also dropped at Thanksgiving weekend, which, again, is like a nice little Adam's family

values, nod, but also, like, people are around, you know, like hanging out. And if it's this multi-generational, like, multi-quadrant nostalgia, but hook the kids play, I think it's something that the whole family could watch, you know, if they wanted to together. So I think that's part of it. a viral TikTok dance always helps. Always. You know, and then I think the word of mouth is pretty solid.

Like, the people would recommend it to me. We're like, yeah, it's a good time. It's also, it's not, it doesn't feel long. Like, the episodes are 40-ish minutes, I think, and there's only eight of them. So it's a pretty, like, swift binge. And it doesn't, for all my, like, critiques of it, what it doesn't have is a, what it doesn't have is that like Netflix soggy middle problem. You know what I mean?

Like I don't, I didn't ever feel like there was an episode where I was like, you could have cut this out entirely in the show. Would have still been okay? So I don't know. Those are some of my answers. What do you think is the answer? I think the first thing is that it's stranger things adjacent where it's like,

there's so much nostalgia. You were talking about it earlier where it's just like, the Adams family has been around since the 30s. So there's so many entry points. Yeah. And I think we are in a place that people want that, people can't get enough of that 90s flavor. They can't get enough of horror.

And if you're a family who are like, my family sits down and watches stranger things. Like that's what we do every single season. I think Wednesday is close enough to that. Do you? That's so cute. Oh, I don't. Oh, no, I don't do that.

Oh. No. No. My, similar to Wednesday, my heart is black, and I don't spend that much. much time with family or friends. I think there's the Riverdale effect where... Yeah.

Never discount our love for teen melodramas that are... And a mystery. A mystery that have IP on top of it. Where I was just like, there's probably a Ryan Johnson type person out there who's like, I love Nancy Drew. I love Nancy Drew's story so much I want to tell my Nancy Drew story. And he's probably walked into Netflix. and they're like, I have a whole new character

that's kind of like Nancy Drew, but it's not. And the Netflix, like, brass were like, fuck off. There's the door. And then that same person could walk in and be like, yo, I've got this Nancy Drew Veronica Mars type story, but it stars Wednesday from the Adams family. And they're just like,

Cheching! I think that's also it. I think this show is also best in parts, which makes it memeable. where it's just like, did I like this show from start to beginning? No. But there are Wednesday is the type of character where I can guarantee you we will be seeing Wednesday memes, Wednesday quotes. There's going to be a no-context Wednesday on Twitter.

We are just going to see this forever. Like, it is a very memeable show. And then the last thing is like, I think it was on the right platform. If Wednesday was on Amazon Prime, do I think it would have been this? No. I think Netflix has a very, they have a core of viewers. that likes a specific type of Netflix show.

It's like a frictionless engagement, right? It's just sort of like it slides down nice and easy. I'll ask you this. Any ways that we could potentially talk about making the show better,

would it be as popular on Netflix? Or is like all of the stuff we were like, I don't know about this, the exact type things that make it a show that pops on Netflix. I agree with you. I think we are probably not in the hit-making business. My favorite show of the year was Andrew.

We're a podcaster. Well, guys, we are not in the hit-making business. This has been the prestige TV podcast. The first four episodes of Wednesday, Joanna and I will be back to talk about the next four episodes. So make sure you log in for that. And thank you so much to Steve Allman. our producer extraordinaire from Ringervverse for agreeing to edit this.

We love you, Steve. We will see y'all.