The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘The Jinx: Part Two’ Finale and the Life and Deaths of Prestige True Crime

Episode Date: May 28, 2024

Justin Sayles and Jodi Walker go back to the courtroom and recap ‘The Jinx: Part Two’ finale. They start by discussing how Season 1 concluded with one of the most shocking endings ever, how true crime has progressed as a genre and since exploded into mainstream popularity between seasons, and why the opening scene is the most powerful moment in ‘Part Two’ (1:43). Next, they unpack how the return of the HBO docuseries differs from the initial run of episodes and what worked (and didn’t) across this unexpected follow-up season nearly 10 years after the fact (9:01). Later, they break down why some of the stuff left on the cutting-room floor had the potential to improve the final product of the second season (44:41). Hosts: Justin Sayles and Jodi Walker Producer: Kai Grady Additional Production Support: Justin Sayles Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Save at Whole Foods Market. Hello and welcome to the Preciseach TV podcast, a show where we break down all the television we can't stop watching. Prestige, maybe true crime, maybe prestige true crime, if that's the thing. My name is Justin Sales. I'm your host for today. And joining us calling Collect from somewhere in New York. It's Jody Walker, host of We're Obsessed on the Ring or Ditch Network.

Jody, how are you doing? Justin, I thought that you were going to give me a brief pause to say my own name in the style of, I don't even know how to do two syllables like, Bab. Here we have Jody. Hi, Justin. How are you? Well, I'm doing okay. I have spent the past 72 to 96 hours living with Robert Durst again, again.

again and again. So, you know, kind of puts you in a weird place. It's a dark and sometimes hilarious place to be. We're going to unpack all of the darkness and the hilarity of it all. Today we are talking about The Jinks, the famous HBO true crime documentary series, which wrapped up its second season on Sunday night, which it's weird to be discussing seasons for true crime sometimes. That has happened before, but this is, I think, a unique case. And the Jinks is, of course, based on the life of Robert Durst, who is the son of a wealthy real estate titan, who was accused of three murders and convicted of one in 2021. The first season of The Jinks, it aired in 2015, and it was a legitimate sensation, and it had one of the most shocking endings that you will ever see scripted or otherwise.

And we are here to discuss that. We are here to unpack all of our feelings about the first season, but also the second season, which HBO put out. in April and which wrapped up on Sunday night. Jody, there is a lot to unpack here, both from the first season and this season. But I want to begin with the big overarching question, how do you feel about this new season? How do you feel coming out of this?

How do you feel after going through your journey again with Robert Durst? That's a very casual question, Justin. And thank you so much for asking. Actually, let me return your question with a question. Did you know that season two, like what was your runway on knowing that season two of The Jinks was coming.

Because for me, as a huge fan of season one, this was like something I found out about right before it premiered. I just, I didn't know this was coming. And I think that played a lot into my kind of like acceptance of it as, as good and necessary. The surprise factor of it played a lot into it for me. Yeah, I was not aware it was coming until HBO announced it at some point in like, I want to say January or February.

And, you know, I, we are going to talk about this because there's a reason why I think you and I are the best two people to do this besides being the people at the ringer who probably watched this the most. There are probably a good handful of listeners on the prestige TV podcast who recognize my voice from the promo from the wedding scammer. And they might recognize your voice from the promo for an American Scandival, the podcast series that turned the Scandival scandal into a true crime story. We have both done true crime or true crime adjacent podcasts. And as part of mine, I actually interviewed one of the people who was involved in the creation of the jinks. It was actually in the wedding scammer. The jinks actually became a plot point in my own podcast because I used, I tried, I interviewed Mark Smirling, who was one of the producers and one of the, one of the creators of, of the Jinks, who was not involved with the second season, by the way.

But he worked on the first season of the Jinks. He worked on a lot of stuff with Andrew Jarecki, the host and director of the Jinks. I had interviewed him for stories in the past, so I had wanted to pick his brain a little bit about basically the finale of the Jinks and how they created this box that Bob Durst couldn't maneuver his way out of before I went and confronted my big bad, who I should stress, in case any lawyers are listening, that my guy didn't, was not accused of murder. He's never stood trial for that. There haven't been other things.

But anyways, that's a different podcast, a different discussion. It was never brought up to me then, even when I was doing the interviews for that show. So I was completely unaware, and I was like a super fan of this show. And I had followed the trial a little bit, but I had no idea.

Yeah, that's right. The reason that we are doing this is because we are interested in true crime. We're also not just interested in the crimes, but we're interested in how true crime has progressed as a genre, and this is such a unique look at kind of the, a decade-long march of true crime as this sort of more niche thing that people were interested in, that was sort of a budding genre, and then in the nature of making a murderer, serial, the Jinks Season 1, how it is

absolutely boomed into this content machine. So sort of accepting and seeing that season two was coming, it just, it was just so different. But it also felt like a hearkening back to that time in season one where it was like, oh, here's a story to really sink your teeth into. And it's really a mystery. Obviously, the difference between season one and season two, as like Andrew Durecki says in both season one and season two, is that, you know, you go into season one wondering if this guy did it, you go into season two wondering how and if they're going to nail this guy for doing it.

And I mean, episode one of season two is just so great, because you get this full meta-commentary of how that final episode of season one sent the world and even the participants in this documentary and the actual, you know, real-life people harmed by these crimes into complete chaos. Specifically, there's that scene in the first episode of season two, where they're watching the finale to season one. And it's Andrew Jarecki's throwing this party

for like basically, a party feels like a little weird thing to call it, but he gathers Kathleen McCormick's family and like Janine Perro and all these people who have worked on the case and been affected by it.

To watch the finale, to watch which, you know, I assume I'm not spoiling this for anybody listening, but to watch this like really like the most unbelievable scene that I've ever seen in a true crime documentary,

which is Robert Durst being backed into a corner with an envelope that he says only the killer could have possibly written. And then Andrew Drecky walking him through the steps to basically say, so you had to have written this, right? And he continues denying it. There's the burping. I mean, the burping is just...

For me, the burping was always like the biggest deal. obviously there is the hot mic confession that happens in the bathroom that, you know, good lawyers, perhaps if he'd had a better non-12 million dollar defense team in the end, might have been able to argue, this is not a confession. These are just, you know, the hypothetical musings of an old man. But the burping. The burping. A physiological response to guilt, it's unbelievable.

It feels like he's trying to expel something within him. And like I don't, again, in all of this. this want to be careful about how we discuss things and when we're not, we don't live inside this person's, inside this person and we weren't there to witness these things. But it does feel like the burping is this, like you said, this physiological response. In this, but in this first episode, he gathers all these people to watch. I had goosebumps as I was watching them much. I think, I think it's probably the most powerful scene of this season and it comes in the first

episode. And I do think that it says, one, how powerful that ending to that first season was. But I think it does kind of set us up for what's going to be slightly different of a season, right? It's going to be a different journey that we're going on now. Season two is a much different thing than season one. In a weird way, even though season two was all the fallout from Jarecki's and the makers of the jinx's involvement, in this case, they were more involved in season one. you go back to the end of season one, Jarecki is like he's,

there's a lot of walk up to how he's feeling about it, how they're going to do this. There's a lot of like meta commentary. And I feel like you don't get a ton of that meta commentary except for in that first episode. Right. Well, there's also, you know, I think that Jurecki and Bob,

who knows how Jureki ultimately feels about this, but they go hand in hand and they will probably for the rest of his filmmaking life. And in season two, we do not get the direct interview access to Bob Durst that you get in season one. And that sort of automatically, I think, takes some of that or a lot of that meta out that you get in season one. I think there's also coming out of season one, there's kind of, you know, there's always this question of, is Bob Durst the luckiest or unluckiest man in the world? And kind of in season one, it's like, is Andrew Durecki the luckiest filmmaker? in the world to have gotten this hot mic confession.

I would say that season two says, like, no, he's a great, he's a great filmmaker. This is a really, really well-made docu-series that purposefully takes already really interesting characters and cast them in these unique ways. And that sort of gathering at his house shows the way that emotion has been laid throughout this series because there's like the pure luck of Kathy Ders' niece

looking exactly like her. But the sort of emotion that that brings in the room is a credit to the filmmakers and the way that they're able to use this meta-commentary. And for me, watching this in this season two that I didn't really know was coming and hadn't totally been anticipating, watching that first episode was pretty electric.

And then you feel that electric. as they hear the confession ripple through that room. And it sets up season two so perfectly to be like, the world was thrown into chaos in 2015 about this confession. Here's what's been happening ever since that you maybe had no idea about. Admittedly, I was not really a fan of true crime before the jinx. Or before that error, I should say, right? I think the jinx came out a few months after cereal.

and about like 10 months before making a murderer, I was never really that compelled by making a murderer compared to some people. Well, that is a moral high ground that you get to hold on me, Justin Sales. Trust me, it was some of the stuff that I've watched over the years. We won't be doing that. I mean, some of the stuff I've made over the years, too. The jinx to me, I don't know if it was.

So my relationship with true crime to this point was I had watched the Paradise Lost documentaries in the 90s that Joe Berlinger and Bruce Tinovsky made about the West Memphis 3. there had been a few things, but it wasn't until that serial jinks. I'm not the only person in the world to really feel this way, right? Where that period in 2014 and 2015 really made the stuff explode. And there was something about that first season. I don't know what exactly it was.

It's probably a testament to Jurecki and Mark Smirling, who had done capturing the Freemans. And they had also done catfish on MTV. They knew how to make something that was both journalistic. but also make something that was really compelling and slick. And I think when you toss the HBO scene on that and then you mix in this unbelievable character

who Bob Durst is not particularly smart. I don't think. And I think a lot of the reason he was able to get away with these things for so long something that explored in the final episode of the second season is the privilege and people wanting to protect their own interests that are tied up in Robert Durst.

But there was something about him to where he also has the ability to say something that makes so much fucking sense that you're like, he's right. The phrase California is a big state lives in my head. Like, my mother, because I live here in L.A., my mother will call me, something will happen

up the coast, there's fires or something my mother will call me. And the first thing I'll say is, oh, California is a big state. And there was just something about this weird guy who just, like, he was very evasive with the truth, But at the same time, capable of saying these truisms that really just kind of rattle around in your head that he would just kind of stick with you. Yeah, that's what I was noticing so much on my season one rewatch is quite literally the way he speaks, the phrases that he uses.

He says the phrase, of course, a lot. And it makes you think, oh, yeah, that's right. Of course, of course he did that. There was one moment where he says he's talking about dismembering Morris Black's body and why he had to do it. And he had to do it the way that he did it. And he says, I thought about putting the body in a sleeping bag and dragging it out. But good God, that's ridiculous. It's like, yeah, that is ridiculous.

How could he drag him out that way? He had to do this. And even right down to killed them all, of course. You know, it's like, of course I had to do this. Because that is the way that he thinks. So he both explains the way that he thinks and how he was backed into a corner. And that's, you know, what that amazing mustachioed

law enforcement officer from season one says about him is that I don't think he is a vengeful murderer. I don't think he sort of murders with intent. But when you back Bob Durst into a corner, he's going to strike out. He's done it at least three times. And so he makes you sort of understand his totally twisted logic, while also being really strange and compelling in the process.

And a lot of that's just being a rich person, you know? It's like rich people are aliens, and he's one of the richest. And so you get that point of view for him, but you also learn about him that he doesn't He's a cool, he's a different kind of rich guy. He's a subversive, you know, he doesn't see himself like that. And you see like every single one of the Roy children in him. And it's impossible, I think, now to rewatch season one and to rewatch season two without thinking about succession on this sister network.

And it's just a strange billionaire. It's also right down to the home videos of the Durs family look like the, intro to succession? And it's like, I guess just old videos look like that or did succession with suggestion like, oh yeah, this is, this is good tape. We got to roll this. I grew up in the 80s and I don't have a lot of recordings about me. I'm just always like, this is like before the 90s when camcorders were readily available and the 2000s when cell phones start popping up. I'm like, you have to be really rich to have recordings of you as a child. Like if they're making a documentary about you and they have recordings of you from when you're six,

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the craftsmanship behind every bite, Boershead committed to craft since 1905. So what worked about this season for you? What, like, what? Because this season was a very different thing. Like you pointed out the same way Jarecki said it, that this was not a matter of,

is he guilty, is a matter of unpacking everything that came out of that first season? And is he going to be held accountable? And of course, you could have just read along with this in the New York Times. You could have just followed this. through whatever. I'm sure there was a podcast out there documenting this trial. Yet there was still

this documentary that ended up existing and it didn't have the same suspense and it worked in a completely different way. But to me, it really worked. And I'm curious if you think that way and what about it did work for you. I think it both propels you through the present or only slightly past court system proceedings and what's actually been happening with Robert Durst and his his trial for the last decade, but it also really successfully hits the rewind button on understanding how Robert Durst got to this point in his life, let's say starting at the disappearance of Kathy Durst and how he sort of maintained this lifestyle from Kathy Durst to because like that's kind of the mystery. How does he keep getting away with it?

The answer that this docu-series provides is the people that he surrounded himself with. And that again raises the question, does he do that with intent? Is he smart? Is he duplicitous? Or is it all just kind of by accident? But you spend a lot of these episodes meeting these people who he has endeared himself to through his privilege, through his money, through his power. through his power and start to understand

why anyone would stand by Robert Durst. And a lot of people did. A lot of people did. And then much more interesting, the few that didn't either because they were legally compelled to or morally compelled to how that ultimately leads to its downfall.

And, you know, obviously season two does not have the ultimate final episode twist that season one has. And really even the final episode in season two is kind of like it's most muted while still being interesting. And I think a solid ending to the saga sort of ending. But it has twists, you know, and that twist is the card game, Uno. Like it has twists and it has shocks and revelations. And the ability to still do that while telling a story that people, you know, may well have been following on the news.

just doing it in a much more succinct and emotionally compelling way it worked for me. Did it work for you? And what did you like? Yeah, you know, you brought up the characters and how we the people who are kind of beholden to Bob. I think

that I remember watching the second episode. So I watched the second season twice. And the first time watching it, I was like, we're spending a lot of time with Nick Chaven who is a, you know, he's a fantastic character. Jody, I'm going to say a word that I would normally not just throw there out on a podcast,

but he's a country singer who has songs including cum stains on my pillow. That's right. And Justin, I did wonder, you know, as a resident music expert, if you were familiar with cum stains on my pillow before you watch this documentary. You know, I've only heard the remixes. I've only heard. I think there was a dubstep remix floating around and back in the time in the first, Jenks, yeah.

He was a really interesting character, but I was thinking, like, we're spending a lot of time with him. And I'm like, I think this is going to pay off. but I'm not really sure. I really enjoyed him. I really enjoyed his relationship with his wife, although it was a little sitcom-y where he would say something and the wife would be like, oh, this fucking guy.

But it's like, yeah, that's where that sitcom dynamic comes from and it's like blown up. Is that couples like this exist? And you said, like, when is this going to pay off? I'll tell you that for me, it might have come later for you. But for me, like the Nick Chaven presence pays off as soon as I meet Terry Chaven. And it's like, oh. Here is this breakdown between morality and principle and personal loyalty and

and expectations of a relationship. And so, like, you know, it's unbelievable that these two could be married when one, I really like Terry Chavin. I really liked most of them. Like, there's a lot of strange breakdown of, like, husband and wife dynamics in this series. And so, like, even just that in this much larger story, we see this much smaller story of, like, how has this affected a marriage? And how many marriages has Robert Durst, like, personally affected?

This, you know, his tendrils go out everywhere. Yeah, you do get the feeling that everybody who's come into contact with Robert Durst has had their life damaged, probably irreparably, with the possible exception of Debbie, which she will get to. But Debbie seems like she got what she needed out of this relationship. The Nick Chaven stuff for me, it paid off two ways, which is one when we're watching people who knew Robert Durst process his guilty conviction in the Susan Berman trial. Drecky is speaking to Terry and Nick Chaven. And Terry says that she's relieved.

And Nick is just kind of like, I don't know how to feel. And Nick was, of course, someone who testified against him, who did it. he felt morally compelled to do it, but he still felt these conflicted emotions. And you put yourself in his shoes for a minute. It's like this person was his friend. For all of the awful things that Bob Durst was convicted of and did, this was still a very close friend of his.

And now he has to process these emotions, and that's very real. But where it really pays off, and I think he, for a moment in that final episode, Nick Chaven kind of becomes the heart of the series, where he does one last interview with Cherokee and he's wrestling with his own complicity

and he's trying to figure out how he feels about it as a human being and God, you know, it's not the overall point of the scene but the yawning, the nervous yawning that he's doing it reminded me of the burping. Yeah. It was again, like you called it a physiological response.

It felt like Nick Chavon's body trying to expel this evil. Because, you know, and again, we say, like, we can only speak for what we see from these people, from what we project onto them and what seems sort of obvious. But you meet someone like Robert Durst, who is capable of living in the in between. Like, he is capable of doing a horrible thing and seemingly explaining it to himself and living a normal life throughout it. That kind of behavior asks the people in your orbit to mirror it. You can't really personally experience someone like that without doing the same thing. And to delve deeper into what someone like that has done probably does ask you to eliminate them from your life.

And that is kind of like what season two is asking the audience to any, and the extent that it's asking us anything is like, what would you do if this happened? And that's what Nick Chavin says is, what do you do when your best friend murders your other best friend? Who do you protect? Who do you honor? The answer that he sort of ultimately comes to is you honor the harm.

party, the most harmed party. You honor Susan, you testify against Bob, but, you know, the thing that the documentary does a good job of showing is the long process to get there, even if it is still pretty hard to relate to as a person, as a human. Someone that I think we all wish that we could relate to as a character. The person who is like unquestionably in the, quote unquote moral right here that I want to ask your opinion of is John Lewin who becomes really you know he's the strongest voice I think the strongest new voice who's introduced in this season he's the prosecutor who is pretty tenacious um and he's also you know he's got the two great Danes I'm I'm a fan of his whole vibe I wouldn't want to go up against him in a court

of law let's hope I I live in Los Angeles let's hope I never have to God help you if you do. I know. I'm screwed. I am screwed. It's funny to me because you go back and you watch those interviews with Jarecki from the first season, there's this kind of playful back and forth. And you watch the way other

people interact with Bob. And even John in those early interrogation seasons where interrogation sessions in the first episode where people are playing nice with Bob. He might be the first person that we really see in this series that has interactions with Bob that we see or

that we hear about directly, that just goes at him and breaks him down completely. Yeah, it's really impressive. And when you think about sort of standard characters or archetypes, rather, that you see in these kinds of true crime documentaries,

by the end, John Lewin has really broken the mold on what we expect from a prosecutor, from a judge. DA. But when you meet him, he kind of fits the mold at first. And then the slow breaking down of that you are dealing with sort of a different beast here is one of the things that works the best for me about season two. You know, prosecutors, they're in their suits, they're stuffy, and they're smug. And that is a stereotype, but it's usually what you're getting. He comes in in what appears to be a personally monogrammed polo. Like, he is the cold murder.

case DA for L.A. And he is in this like, it just, it doesn't look like regulation, the polo that he's wearing, but it is monogrammed with his title. And you're kind of like, oh, yeah, this guy's, this guy's a nerd. And then he's got the Wonder Twins working for him, the sort of property brothers. Yeah.

Okay, wait, Justin, were you a fan of their presence or a detester of their presence in this series? I wanted more of them. Like, I thought when they. When they opened up episode two, I was like, okay, this is great. Like, these guys are, but they were great and just helping move the story along. And every time we kicked to them, like, great stuff.

But I wanted more of them. I know. And it's, were they doing anything important or necessary here? No, they were not. In reality TV, we would just call these narrators. Like, they're good narrators. They're interesting. They're not telling us anything that anyone else couldn't tell us,

but they're so weird that I imagine as filmmakers when you see two people like this, you're like, I've got to get them on screen. And they're such like a, that they are part of this prosecution team sort of makes a lot of sense because I think what you see from John Lewin is he approaches Bob Durst with humanity

and he sees him the way that the world sees him. Even if he believes he's a monster or he believes he's a murderer, he sort of allows him. There's one point when he says, you know, I hate to admit it, but Bob's funny. Like, he gets it.

And he knows the power that Bob could have on the stand. He's seen it in the Morris Black case. And there is another moment. There's a moment in season one where the prosecution team sees Bob Durst on the stand, make the jury laugh.

And they're like, Oh, shit. We're supposed to be coming at this from the understanding that he has murdered and dismembered someone, and they are giggling along with him. Obviously, he gets a few laughs in this case, too. But the first one we hear is John Lewin getting a laugh. And that doesn't happen a lot with prosecutors. It doesn't.

And I also think there was the moment, the one moment where John kind of lost his cool that they showed in the documentary. I thought it was also actually very telling, though, because Bob, of course, he was hard of hearing, or at least that was how he presented in court. I don't know, who knows if that was the case, but he had this screen that would fill up as one of the attorneys interrogated him.

And, or cross-examined or whatever. And John Lewin gave this, the Wonder Twins layout that he gave, this way too long question. And Bob Durst just goes, congratulations, you set the record, you filled up 18 lines of my screen. And John Lewis says,

well, congratulations, you just set the perjury record. And I was like, yo, first of all, like, I was kind of surprised to see him lose as cool. But at the same time, it was a realization that this was a guy who was sick of the Bob Durst is funny, Bob Durst is charming.

He's like, no, we're not here today. discuss this. We're here to discuss what this guy is done, which, you know, I think as a viewer you forget sometimes, you know, one of the first things that I'm going to think of when I think of this season is Bob Durst on the prison video conference call with Debbie. And all you can see is both of their like foreheads basically and him just going, your hair is bushy, which is, of course, something that every woman wants to hear from her, from her partner, right? Right, Jody? Yeah, as a haver of giant hair, it's always what I'm looking to hear. Never tell me what my hair looks like from the back and never tell me how big it is.

And then, you know, and I think within 10 minutes, he's doing his little push-ups against the railing. And he should, you know, it's all these things and it's like, oh, here's weird, quirky Bob again. And John Lewin's like, I'm not here for this. Yeah, he lures Bob Durst into the sense of comfort and privilege that Bob Durst seems accustomed to. And then just when he's kind of, because that's what you hear him say, right, in episode one, is, you know, I felt like I was 5% away. I was 95% to a confession.

I was about to get Bob Durst to confess. And what I realized is that I wasn't. Like, this is where he lives. He lives at 95%. And to finally get that 5% means playing Bob Durr's. game, letting him tell the story of losing his mother, of, you know, poor little rich boy, of missing out on his rightful place at the throne of the Dirst Company, of Douglas is the bad guy, of everything that he believes, and then taking his knees out from under him, because it's

just not true. And I don't want to, you know, skip ahead in the trial too much. But for me, that's the hot mic bathroom confession moment is when John Lewin is repeating over and over. So these memories of playing Uno with your family and throwing the Frisbee around, you can picture that right now. That's real to you. And playing the emotional game that the defense is playing

and then hitting them with the facts, which is what Bob Durst is so good at avoiding with this, the language that he uses, saying, of course, about, dragging a body in a sleeping bag or whatever, hitting him with the facts. Frisbee was invented in 1957 and your mom was not alive then. And Uno was invented in the 70s.

When you hear, I don't know about you, Justin, but when I heard him talking about Uno, I was like, you are too old to have been playing Uno. But it took me away. I let it take me away. And that is what, you know, John Lewin's gift as a prosecutor seems to be, is letting you be taken away and then cutting it out from under you. I think, you know, we're talking a lot about,

episode five, which I think is the strongest one of this season, because it's the one where we have the most Bob, for lack of a better way to put it. It's him on... Bob! He's like a sheep. He's like a little 100 millionaire sheep, just walking around and shouting Bob. This episode, to me, was the strongest. It had the most Bob. It was unraveling all these lies that he had told and that as a viewer, it's like, I don't really believe this, but like, he's saying this and, like, there's something about it that makes sense and then seeing John Lewin break them down.

That episode really worked well for me. But I'm curious, you know, I want to get into what might not have worked about this season relative to the first. And I'm wondering, the first season is basically from episode two on, all interviews with Bob. and or like that makes up the bulk of everything. Did the lack of access to Bob, because obviously he didn't give any interviews for season two,

did that impact this season to you? There's no way to know what the season would have been like if we'd had more Bob. But it actually did work for me because I think in season two, I needed less Bob. And we've spent a lot of time, you know, it's like it's kind of the problem.

It's like the problem for everyone when they watch the jinx is like, you don't want to like this guy, but you do. And you need, I think, in season two to get away from that and to deal. And the episode that actually works, I obviously was extremely like blown away by episode five, which is the main kind of trial episode and listening to Bob on the stand is the most we get of him. But maybe because I was looking for less Bob. What really worked for me was episode four, which is basically all about the cadaver note,

which is something that we learn about in season one. And it really turns Bob against Bob, which is what you have to do to beat Bob. Because when someone is that unpredictable, you can really only back them and a corner and kind of have them battle themselves. So that's, you know, really simplifying it, because ultimately what the prosecution does is get another husband and wife pair, the Altman's, who have been sort of legal advisors to Bob, but are mostly just friends. Yeah, the guy who was a lawyer, who's basically like a small town lawyer that he'd kick his buddy a few bucks to. He's like, he's another person that is on the Bob payroll.

He gets, you know, a semi-annual Lexus. And, you know, he hides his secrets that might prove that he's done murders in return. And the prosecution sees that. And they spend, and some of the stuff's a little monotonous. Like, the time that they spend proving that the Altmans were not legal advisors, that they are just friends. But like, that's the court system, you know? Like, that's what happens in these trials is like the little nitty-gritty that breaks down and breaks down and breaks down until you get Emily Altman on the stand

emotionally breaking down. They know that she's the wild card. They've proven that she cannot be considered a legal advisor or legal staff. She's just a friend. And even if she's not a totally reliable or believable witness, she says, says that she thinks that Bob might have said he was in L.A. at the time that Susan Berman showed up dead. And like, that's what they need to turn Bob against Bob. There are things about this season that are not as electric, but I didn't miss the direct access to Bob. And it's

because it's kind of like the direct access to Bob is always what lets him get away with it. He confuses you. He mixes you up. And we as an audience don't get that in season two. And also Bob doesn't get that in season two. He doesn't get the benefit of kind of pulling the wool over your eyes because he's in prison, because he's physically broken down, because he's old, and he's at the end of his rope. I think that had this been the kind of documentary that just covered the trial about something. that I didn't fully know about.

I would find this, which is basically what, let's say you were just dropped into season two, or like, let's say season one never happened and you tack a few episodes on to the beginning to kind of get you up to speed to get to the point we're at in season two, right? And then it becomes a little bit more of a traditional true crime documentary, and it has the HBO sheen. And I think I would still think this was excellent. I still think I would think that this was a really well-made document. documentary. I think that a lot of people, I've been, so this is one of the few series that you can log on Letterboxed, and I've been going on Letterbox to see how people are reviewing this season.

And there's a lot of people that are like five stars season one, two stars season two. And I don't agree with that. And I don't want to tell people that they're watching things the wrong way, but I do think that it is a matter of people wanting those fireworks or people feeling like this was a post script. And I think that. that this is actually exploring many very interesting things, including in the finale, which may, I think

the finale worked really well because it turns it into a story about class, privilege, proximity, complicity, all of these things, and it really drives those points home. And that goes from Debbie, that goes from the Altman's, it goes from Nick Chaven's relationship

with it. It goes to his family who were kind of absent in this season, but are a big part of season one. And what's really fascinating to me is in season one, we learned that Robert Durst and his brother Douglas has such a poor relationship that Douglas Durst had to hire bodyguards to protect him from Robert Durst, and which Robert Durst famously goes,

well, because he's a pussy. It's such a Roman Roy moment. Like, well, why did he hire a bodyguard? Because that's when you think you're backing Bob into a corner to say, like, because he's scared of me? No, it's because he's a pussy. So, but there's no love loss between Robert and Douglas Durst. But at the end of the day, when they're showing this, this, the deposition of the Durst family in the civil suit that the McCormick family was bringing against, was looking to bring against the Gerst estate.

Douglas Durst and his other siblings mostly seem to be interested in projecting not Robert Durst, but the, Durst name, the Durst fortune, the Durst real estate empire. And it really, to me, drives home this idea of everyone can know that this guy did these awful things. Everyone can know that Robert Durst is a very bad guy. But it doesn't behoove anyone in proximity to him to admit these things. Like, it's the very last line of the series, right? It's them asking Debbie, was this worth it? She says, I think so. I like the way the series built up to that because they thread these things throughout. They introduce the Altman, they introduce Nick Chaven.

There is part of me that thinks that this could have been, rather than feeling like a post script to the post script, this could have been like more in the text of the season. And that might have actually been something that the people who were saying five star season one, two star season two, could have wrapped their arms around and felt like, okay. okay, this is why we're here. Basically, I'm saying, I think sometimes people need their handheld. And I think we'll, in a few minutes, I think we're going to get into how Netflix

and what the true crime market is right now. And I think there's a lot of that. And I think it's a testament to Drecky and Zach Stewart Pontier, who worked on this season with him and Mark Smirling from the first season, the way that they handled this story, that they didn't hold people's hands.

But I think that there's, I do think that even for me, the series could have used a little bit more of that energy early on in season two. I agree. I think that the finale works, and it really raises almost some interesting points about class and family and what you owe your fellow humanity. You know, Kathy's niece says, everyone asks, where were the Dirst family? Where were the in-laws?

where was Seymour when my aunt Kathy disappeared? But I ask why weren't they protecting her before? They all talk about feeling endangered by Bob, knowing that he's abusive, having an awareness of this, and doing nothing to protect Kathy ever. They're only there to protect themselves. I think that the finale,

it actually doesn't put a button on those things. It opens those things up, and you're right about the holding the hand is like, open those things up and allow the audience to move forward. You know, life doesn't happen in seasons. These are pertinent points no matter what. Bring these into your own life. Think about it.

But there is something in me that wishes those were a little more threaded throughout season two. And the Deborah thing both works and doesn't. She is an 80s movie villain. You know, she has. has the hair for it. She is dark-sighted. Like, she's an unbelievable character that you also know, but sort of positioning her as, like, the final boss or the winner of this.

I don't know, or the potential winner, unless, you know, Kathy's family is able to win this civil suit. That's sort of, like, a hanging thread. I don't know if that worked as much. for me. I both understand it and appreciate that they brought it up, but it doesn't feel final and it didn't totally feel earned to the extent that we had explored Debbie's, like, you know, the complicit nature of her relationship to Bob and her earnings, basically. To speak personally about my own experience making a true crime narrative podcast for a second

and to speak big picture at the same time. This came out at the same. time as cereal, the first season of the chicks. And I remember people being very upset with the first season of cereal that there was no definitive answers, that you left that first season not knowing the answer. And the reality is, this is real life, this isn't a movie. This is not, you don't get the Hot Mike confession with Adnan saying something, right? You don't get the piece of evidence that in that final episode. And I went through this with my own podcast.

I get, I think when we tell these stories, our responsibility is one to the truth, two, to tell it in a compelling manner that engages people and ask them to, you know, it tells them a story, but also makes them question things about human nature. And I think that there are, there are a lot of levels to unpack. I get comments about basically saying, why didn't you arrest your guy? Why haven't you gone on like a campaign since then? about the wedding scammer. Dustin, please do you... Why are you reading my emails live on the podcast? I thought that I asked you those things in private.

Look, I'm... Look, I brought you on here, and I figure 45 minutes into this, I'm just going to start airing my grievances. The Jinks Season 1 did have that perfect movie ending in a way that these things don't have. The Jynx Season 2 doesn't have it. In a way, it feels like a much more normal, true crime

ending, whereas open-ended, and here are some things that we are, like, here are some things that we want you to explore, some ideas. It doesn't have those fireworks at the end. To that point, you know, I'm speaking about the very meta process of making a true crime podcast. Have you listened to the companion podcast for the Jenks? I have not. It's worth listening to because I also think it hints at a better version of what season two could have been is something that I want. wanted more of. I wanted more Jarecki, and it's the rear case where I wanted more naval gazing than I was getting. I think Jareki and, you know, the other people who worked on the Jinks, were very much a part of the story in a way that most true crime documentaries or podcasters

will never be. And I really, really wanted more of that. You see moments of it, like, you know, in that first, in that first episode where he gathers everyone around. You see that metanus. Or you see the moment where he's doing the interview with the New York Magazine reporter. And he gets the phone call that Robert Durst died, and you see him react for a moment. But here's the thing. Did you know that he almost had to testify in this trial? No. They don't get into that. I mean, makes sense. But it does make sense. And the documentary does not get into it, but the podcast does.

Robert Durst get up there on the, this is in the podcast. It's the podcast. The podcast goes episode by episode. So this is in the second and last episode. Robert Derskis up there and says Andrew Jurecki gave me a script and I was reading off it. John Lewin's like, look, do you want to come back and rebut this? And it basically came down to it wasn't beneficial because nobody was really believing that story. But that's a really fascinating moment where you become part of the story. And I think it was missing a little bit more of that energy. I think it's, I admire the restraint that Jurecki showed. I really truly admire the restraint. But it's the rare case where I think naval gazing would have actually served. And maybe it's just me. Maybe it's just me being someone

who has made one of these shows and I exist in this in this world to an extent that I want more of that. But I think he's as compelling if a character as anyone. He's the true crime documentarian who, by the way, lived with this story for 17 years because his involvement of the story begins with making a scripted movie based on this story. back in 2010, starring Ryan Gosling that literally no human being ever saw. Except for Robert Durst. Except for Robert Durst, yes.

And said, hey, do you want to chat? And then there's the next two decades of Andrew Drecki's life. I agree. I think that the restraint and the non-handholding is really respectable and admirable.

You know, season one of the jinx the way that it ends is, you know, viewed as the exception, not the rule of true crime documentaries. You don't get an answer at the end. You don't get a hot mic moment. The fact that they got that made it this cultural moment, it was insane. What season two goes on to break down is, no, it's all the rule. We got a hot mic moment. It's like an admission, but it's not. you still have to go to court. It all still happens, has to happen, and no one wins when someone dies.

The center of this is still three unsolved murders that everyone's pretty sure that this guy did. Can we ever get him on it? And the like, you know, really dark moment of this season two finale is like, yeah, we got him, but kind of not because his ultimate trick is that he dies before we can complete this conviction. The conviction is vacated.

So ultimately, you know, you get a little sense of justice, but not enough justice for the families. I'm sure this is what you are. It's hard to end true crime series. Like, it's hard because they kind of, you know, they don't end. Like now it's in civil court

and even if Kathy Durst family wins there, what is the win? Kathy is gone. And this is kind of, you know, this is the meta-commentary of consuming true crime, is that like something can be interesting, something can be fascinating, but it's still crime.

And in this, you know, not in all cases, but in many cases, lives have been lost. You see the way that it branches out, through families and through relationships and through exasperated wives and through all of it in the way that it harms people. And it can be interesting.

It can be fascinating. It can tell you about the human condition. It can have physiological responses to guilt and keeping something inside of you. But there's still not a winner. Things don't end like that. What do you think the Netflix version of this would have been?

The 2024 Netflix version. Did the first season air on Netflix too or did it move over to Netflix for season two? The whole thing's on Netflix. What does it look like? I think that it offers more of a button. It paints the monsters more as monsters. It paints the victims more as heroes.

It's more black and white because binging things, taking them one after the other, require a cliffhanger. They require a black and white. And actually going back to season one, it surprised me that I, it's like I remember the hot mic moment, but I forgot that it fully ended with that, goes to black. And that's really, it's like, the lights literally go off in the office. The lights going off is, there are a couple things that just like always work in the jinks.

And one is like Robert Durst cutting his eyes to camera in the courtroom and the episode goes to black. Like those are the those are the cliffhangers in the HBO version. You know, in the Netflix version, I do think it requires more salaciousness

to like keep holding on and to handhold your audience through like, get through this all in a night, like watch it all right now. I don't know. What do you think it looks like? I think that it tells the whole story

in the first 20 minutes before the first title card rolls. I think it makes it so you can just be on your phone the entire time. Yeah. The reason I bring this up is, and I think this is an interesting place to end, but the jinx, we're discussing it on the Prestige TV podcast, and, you know, not everything we discuss here is necessarily prestige TV. You know, a little, I don't want to insult the audience. We know.

Bridgeton is great. Bridgeton is not Succession. So, unless you, this is your chance to tell me I'm wrong on that, Jody. Bridgeton is Succession, Justin. Okay. All right. Just kidding. No, it's not, but it is compelling television with themes that are worth discussing and, you know, costumes worth discussing and source material. There are things to dive deeper on. I think that, though, the reason we can discuss this episode here is, like, there was a way that the HBO-style documentaries were made for a while, right? And it was after the jinks and there was like, I love you now die, the story about the girl who texted her boyfriend to get back in the car.

while he was trying to die by suicide. There was, I'll Be Gone in the Dark, the Michelle McNamara, the Patton Oswald's wife story about the Golden State Killer. And these were just like excellent well-made documentaries that weren't salacious

in a way that you would expect out of, you know, the Ted Bundy documentary or, you know, crime scene at the CISO Hotel or these other Netflix documentaries, you know, murder among the Mormons, which I didn't have to watch much of

because they told me everything, in the first 10 minutes. They tell me, they tell you everything. I guess, like, a good place to end this conversation is, are we past a world where we can really have documentaries like the jinx breakthrough? Because I'm struggling to think of any sense, maybe like The Vow, that are true crime documentaries, which the VOW is like three years old at this point now, that feel like they were made in this kind of, like, elevated way.

I think, no, is the uninteresting answer. or maybe? Because there will always be crime and there will always be good filmmakers. And those two things will always come together. I think that the sort of focus points will always be changing. You know, like there aren't serial killers now like there were in the 60s and 70s. There are cults now. You know, that's where we're getting more interesting stories about the human condition. Maybe we're past the point of those things catching on with an audience at the same time because of the way that television is made and put out on a week to week basis. Are we going to be talking about these docu series like we talked about the Jinks season one? Like maybe the market is just too sad.

But I think that there's a lot more to be said. And I think that there are like, there's better filmmaking out there. I think if there are filmmakers who want to do it, there's a market for it. There will always be true crime. And we're going to go through true crime booms. And maybe in 10 years we'll have another version of cereal and the jinx. And that will lead us to another version of this. And maybe we'll be back here talking about it.

Jody, I think that's a great place to wrap it. And I want to thank you so much for coming on. I want to thank our producer, Kai Grady. And I want to thank everyone who listened to this conversation. And please go listen to an American scandal vall and possibly the wedding scammer if you're into it. And want to hear more about us doing our version of true crime. But thank you all. We'll catch you next time on the prestigious TV podcast.