The Prestige TV Podcast - 'The Last of Us’ Episode 3 Deep Dive

Episode Date: January 31, 2023

Paying attention to things is how we show love, and Joanna and Mallory leave no stone unturned as they dive deep into the third episode of ‘The Last of Us.’ They start with Bill and Frank’s story and discuss how the episode was able to portray light in the dark world that they created. Plus, they share their thoughts on the song choices throughout the episode, explain how the show’s story line differs from the game, and examine Joel and Ellie’s evolving dynamic. A link to the cinematic playthrough Joanna is watching can be found here. Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Associate Producer: Mike Wargon Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up everybody? It's Austin Rivers from the Minnesota Timberwolves. It's a new year and I have a new podcast here at the Ringer, Offguard, hosted by me and my guide Pasha Higigi. Austin and I go way back and talk so much hoop already that we figure those time to fire up the mics and let you in on all of these conversations. Every week, Pasha and I will hit on the biggest stories happening in the league. And get Austin's perspective of someone currently hooping in the NBA. Tap into Offguard every Friday on the Ringer NBA show feed on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. I'm sorry. What? Getting older faster than you.

I like you older. Older means we're still here. I was never afraid before you showed up. I was never scared with you. I was always scared. Make all the money you found and go and find some peace. I won't have peace. I'll be worried about you all the time.

That's just love. Nothing you can do about that. Come back into the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Jonah Robinson and joining. me today to pay tribute to the, like, memorialize, I think. The best new TV character. Of course, I'm talking about the Baltimore QZ. It's Mallory Rubin. Hi, Mallory. Joe. So what? You were a prepper or something? Survivalist. All right. So hi. This is the last of us, second last of us installment on the Precise TV podcast feed this week.

And the third ringer episode about this fantastic episode of television because Chris and Andy covered it beautifully on the watch. Charles and Van covered it beautifully on Sunday. And we are here to cover it even more. And it's an episode of television, I think absolutely merits all of this discussion. It's an incredible episode of television. We are talking, of course, about long, long time, episode three of the last. Last of Us. What you heard at the top this episode was sort of a mashup that I put together of this theme of fear and love over a couple different properties that Mal and I have

been talking about over the last couple of years. So that is something that will be on our minds today as we discuss Bill and Frank and Joel and Ellie. Before we get into all of that, we of course have program reminders, as I already mentioned. You can hear Charles and Van do was sort of an instant reaction to every episode of Last of Us on the Sunday night on this feed. I am doing a poker face coverage with Rob Mahoney that comes out at the end of the week. Really great episode of Pokerface coming up later this week. Maybe my favorite. Great stuff.

And then Mallory and I, of course, will be over on the Ringiverse, Sister Pod every week on Fridays. This week we're doing some Mando Season 3 prep. We're preppers for Mando season. reason three. Malay, how do folks follow all that content? Oh, follow the pods. Yeah. Follow the pods on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast.

Of course, follow on social media. Follow our social media accounts. Follow the ringerverse. Follow the ringer. Ringer podcast, all of it. And if you're interested in sharing your thoughts on The Last of Us or anything else that we're covering and the Joe's covering, send your emails, Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. Excellent.

You guys, mushroom mushymes are still coming. Tons of emails about this episode, of course. We got like so many instant, like, novel-length emails. People, I think we're like crying on their keyboards and typing to us about how they felt about this episode. So, as I said, long, long time is what we're covering today. Directed by Peter Hoare, written by Craig Mazen. Peter Horr is a British. director who has done, did seminal episode, Doctor Who, a good man goes to war, a really important

episode, some Daredevil, ever heard of it, and, you know, maybe most pertinent to our discussion today, the fantastic series, it's a sin. Incredible. Yeah. So really, you know, obviously incredible work on this week's episode as well. I'm still doing the cinematic playthrough. Mallory is still playing the game week to week. the cinematic play-through on YouTube,

but a lot of people ask us exactly which one I'm watching. I'll have, Mike is producing our episode today, I'll have him put it in the show notes, but if you just type in cinematic playthrough Last of Us into YouTube, I feel like you can find it.

But this week is covered in episode three of that playthrough called Partners. And then just a quick, I just have like a quick point of order thing that's stressing me out about the discussion around this. Excited. This episode.

I've heard a lot of people refer to this as a bottle episode. And Chris on the watch called it a message in a bottle episode, which I really liked. I thought that was a really cute, fun way to describe it. But please allow me to put on my, like, media literacy hat for a second and talk about what a bottle episode. I don't know why it's bothering me so much. What a bottle episode is. A bottle episode, which comes from the era of television when a, you know, It came out of this idea of people being low on money.

You're running out of budget, but you need to do an episode. So let's put all of our characters in, like, one place. Trap them in an elevator. You know, there's a very famous episode of Breaking Bad Fly where Walt and Jesse are just in the lab, the whole episode. There's an episode of Maddo You that I love where Paul and Jamie are like stuck in the bathroom, the whole episode. That's a bottle episode.

One location, your characters are stuck there. This idea of like the Bill and Frank story, you know, it's an arc contained to this episode story, but it is not technically a bottle episode. Have I lost my mind, Mallory, or do words matter in 2023? Oh, I mean, I'm an editor. I love a little run through like that. Bring it. Yeah. Well, Messaged and Abol, I think, is a really cute little phrase that Chris coined on the watch.

But, and despite understanding of, you know, because this game is something of like a, almost like a road movie, right, where you're moving from city to city, I don't know if we're going to get anything quite as profound as this, but we are going to get more of like several mini arcs, I would say, over like an episode or two. People you meet along the way, right? Yeah. Yeah. Even just from the cast list and the trailer and who we see where the stops are. Yeah. So I anticipate more mini arcs like this one. But, you know, I think people will refer to this as either a long, long time or simply the Bill and Frank episode, I think, for years to come. And that's really fair. Also, Van mentioned, we'll never miss an opportunity to mention San Juan Juna Perro, the Black Mirror episode that he loves, that you love, that I love, that anyone with a beating heart loves. But a lot of our listeners wrote in about this episode of The Magicians, A Life in the Day, that I absolutely adore. Were you?

Magicians watcher now? Yeah, a reader and a watcher. Love magicians. I mean, that is a beautiful episode where Elliott and Quentin are like trapped for decades and form this relationship. And you see it play out over the episodes. It's very emotional. And I thought it was interesting that both of those episodes were gay love stories. That was very interesting. Any, any like major TV episode come to mind for you when watching this episode? Van beat me to it with Sandra Naparo. That was top of my mind for, for, for, numerous reasons, including that this episode of The Last of Us is instantly one of my favorite episodes of television ever. And I feel pretty confident saying that and feeling like it will remain true and be true and that this like Sanjana Peral will be something that I think about often

and look for as a way to connect to other stories that have resonated with me deeply and that I return to and find an incredible amount of emotional amount of emotional. emotional richness and meaning in it. I just thought this was extraordinary. And one of the reasons that San Juan Napero, I think, gripped so many people at the time, is that Black Mirror, which is one of my favorite shows, to be clear, can be a pretty bleak proposition.

And to find something that hopeful, but not easy. Like, the love story is very complex. And the questions that the characters are navigating about what a forever looks like or even means if you're not sharing it with, the person that you love is a through line that feels incredibly pertinent here. And, you know, Sanjana Pera, one of my all-time faves and long, long time, rocketing up the list.

It's just extraordinarily beautiful and moving and deeply sad and heart-wrenching, but also incredibly affirming and hopeful. And I just thought it was extraordinary. And I love this show. And I can't wait to talk about this episode with you today. I love you so much. I love your reaction to this. I love that you were already one tissue into this podcast. That might be allergies. I don't know. But the signature mix of emotion and allergies, you know. The classic Rubin cocktail. I think it's really interesting as like a tone check that Neil Druckman says that he considers this the happy, the happy episode, right?

And something that Craig Mason said on the official podcast is he said, in our universe, these guys won, right? So this is meant, you know, if you're looking for uplift, this is as close as you're, you know, to your point. This is as close as you're going to get in a world of mushroom zombies. So, you know, and very minimal mushroom zombies this week. That's right. You know, and the antagonist this week is a little more complicated than, you know, a fungus.

Though, I mean, let's just remember. A fungus loves too. So, you know, never forget. The way we're going to run through the episode this week is we're going to do all the Bill and Frank stuff. I'm going to do all the Joel and Ellie stuff, even though sort of back and forth a bit in the episode. So let's start with the opening with the roundup to the QZ and how Bill escaped that and has this great montage of living out his survivalist fantasies. What did you make of this, Mel? Well, this bridge moment that we get where I know we'll talk about Ellie and Joel later,

but where we leave them by panning down into this mass grave and tracking the clothing, the visible identifiable shirts of a mother and a newborn child into these federal loading trucks and having learned from Joel that the government told you you were going to a QZ and maybe you were and maybe you weren't, it depended on if there was room. And when he says to LA, dead people can't be infected. Like, the fact that our opening note for going into Bill's life is that harrowing. And the, like, you never shake the fact that those are the trucks that Bill didn't get on. Because he's hiding down in his bunker below the basement.

And the people who were forced to leave their homes and who were not sick and who thought they would be saved and were ultimately led to their slaughter, like another moment in the show in the opening of for meeting Bill where we're reminded that it's not just the virus. It's not just the cordyceps that people. And specifically, government or the systems that are like nominally intended to protect you are often the biggest threats. And we get that not today. You new order jackboot fucks line from Nick Offerman. We will praise Nick Offerman and Murray Bartlett five thousand times today. But we just take a moment right here to say what astoundingly wonderful performances we got from both of them. And that's obviously part of, I mean, the story and the changes from the game to this episode,

which are substantial in terms of Bill and Frank. The quality and tenderness and humor in the performances and in the dynamic that that allows us to see forge and then follow over a life, it's at another level because of what we got. from those two. And I think that, you know, as I had mentioned on here, as people had mentioned in their reviews, a lot of critics were like, okay, episode three is where this show jumps to another level. And that was sort of similar to a conversation we had around Andor as well. And I think, you know, I have a lot of faith, I had a lot of faith in Craig Mason because of Chernobyl and the episode of Mythic Quest that he did. But I just love that this show had.

the time and had the interest to do this story. And it just helps us understand what, you know, and that's something that the game was praised for. You know, obviously the game does it differently, but like in the game, as you know, because you're playing it and as I know, because I'm watching his play through, like, Bill is someone you meet who really just serves to put you on a mission and get you some supplies, essentially. And it's very shooter bashing. heavy, that section, very action heavy, that section of the game. But the game cared enough to give Bill a poignant backstory, where you, you know, which is different from the show, obviously, where Frank has left him, Frank gets bitten, Frank kills

himself, you know, harrowing. Again, this is the happy episode, the version that Craig and Neil decided to give us. But I just think that that, you know, I just want to praise the game for that, for, you know, deciding to give that character and I anticipate many more characters to come that level of a nuance of a backstory. But to be able to spend time in that story, not just roll up to the house and Ellie finds the letter and reads the letter, you know, something like that is, I'm just really grateful for it. Yeah. In terms of – yeah, go ahead. Well, and I think, like, you know, we'll chat more about some of the differences in the – the in the adaptation.

Later, when we go through the beats of the life that we got to see, to your point, we actually got to see an experience Bill and Frank Cher here. But right away, there are some distinctions in the presentation that really struck me, me, a person who has had the game in my life for a full, you know, this portion of the game, a full 48 hours at this point. I was like, wow, the visual, the setting and the specifics of the setting really struck me because like first of all in terms of just the world of the show and the world of the story more broadly you know we learn from from joel this one week outbreak day and then the the loading

up is it to go to the queuesies is a week later right but and so you see the emptying of lincoln the emptying of of bill's town and it just like reinforces how quickly it all happened and what we hear Joel tell ellie which is like one day it's just all gone but of course for bill we see right way that this is a good thing. We'll hear that idea in his letter to Joel that Ellie finds, this idea that he was happy when the world ended, that he was happy when all of these people died. And of course, Frank is this fundamental agent of change in his life and his perspective. But as we get to watch him in that opening stretch with like the peppy music, we've got Fleetwop Mac playing. I mean, what a, what an episode for needle drops. Obviously, we'll talk the most about

Linda Ronstadt long, long time, but there were a lot of great musical cues throughout this episode. You know, he's going to Home Depot. He's filling up back. He's a lot of of gas. He's cutting down a tree to chop wood. He's got his generator ready. Like, we're in his bunker. We see the guns and ammo magazines and the walls full of ammunition. And then we pan out to the street. And in the game, it's like much more, first of all, there are just more threats everywhere. They're infected everywhere. As the characters make their way through, Bill actually says at one point, like, this is kind of past where I've gone. So the distinction of Bill as a character in the show who has completely secured his existence. Yeah.

But the industrial shift to then this really like bucolic town, the setting in which we find Bill in the show made for such a stark contrast, I thought, because you have this like pastoral way of life literally wrapped in barbed wire and flamethrowers. And what more context do you need than that for how far and how quickly things have changed? But then we see Bill inside of that barbed wire, peace. Like comfort in his solitude as he makes his first meal. He's brazing his meat. Well, until he found out that that's not fully living.

Exactly. He needed someone to completely change the way he thought about life. You can't really enjoy the rabbit and bojolet by yourself. Like, it's better shared, right? And I think that, I mean, I love that he literally has a don't tread on me flag. Like, that is what, that was my favorite piece of production design. But yeah, it's the whole thing validated, you know, the same way that I assume people who go gluten-free without the intolerance felt validated by like, I knew I shouldn't have had gluten and had evil mushrooms in it. You know, he's validated by his whole way of life by this event.

And I think that so when we skip to four, you spent four years like this, four years ensconced in his little like wisteria lane. existence. And you're right. Like, you know, for some reference, that dilapidated convenience store that Jolenelli go into in this episode in the game is in the neighborhood where they find Bill. So that level of dilapidation is what Bill is living in the game. He's like, hold up in a church. It's not this. But four years later, when Bill goes to meet Frank way down the hole and we learn what we learn about. the Baltimore QZ. Anything you want to say about Baltimore QZ? Joe, what a thrill this was to get a Baltimore QC shout out. Though then a real mood swing immediately when Frank said, it's gone.

Oh, no. Tough. And you know, you think back to what we've heard, tests explained to Ellie about how, and this is, of course, in the future back in the 2020 timeline, that's how they take more and more of the city every year. So you wonder, like, the show is so deft at that, these little half lines. that spark questions about what the entire nature of reality is. How many QZs were there in the first place?

How many are there eventually standing still in 2023? What leads to one of them falling? Is it unrest inside? Is it the encroachment of the infected? And it doesn't matter that we don't have those answers in this moment because the fact that we're thinking about those things gives us a fuller sense of the world. I love the idea of Frank, of Murray Bartlett,

one of my favorite actors hanging out in Baltimore, enjoying some crab cakes and boog's barbecue and a natty bow and talking about the O's. I just love it. Were you disappointed? I mean, Murray Bylet is Australian, I believe, not unless he's a New Zealander, and I will get emails about that.

But really convincing American accent, were you disappointed that he didn't try the Baltimore accent? Have a little more of the Baltimore twang, a little more of the AM Sports Talk Radio that comes out from yours truly every so often on this year podcast. I'm content with everything about this performance because we got the low line while Arby's didn't have free lunch.

It was a restaurant, which is simply one of the funniest things I've ever heard. Really good. So funny. And it tells you so much about Frank. Because imagine having the ability in that moment where you have the QZ you were in fell. You've gone through the apocalypse.

The QZ you were and fell. You set out. It was 10 of you. You're the only one left. You've fallen into this. guy's trap. He's holding you a gunpoint. You have no idea if you're going to live 10 more seconds. Right. And you make that joke about how I think he said just simply is not logically intact. This is such a great insight into Frank's personality and the way that he navigates

conversations with people. I loved it. Something I love, you know, that we learned in the official podcast was this idea that like Murray Bartlett sort of Craig left it up to Murray Bartlett. to decide when Frank decided he knew that Bill was gay or queer, however you want to put it. And it was sort of like this, there's, Frank is smiling here because you recognize something, like it's here. It's as soon as this. It doesn't even have to wait for the Bojolet to come out. Like, it's as soon as this, right?

And I like this, I mean, not knowing what was going to happen, though we've heard them referred to Frank and Bill by test, by. Joel, et cetera, in the future. So, like, knowing that Frank's going to stick around. But at first, you're a little, like, Bill, uh, no, don't let this smiling stranger into your, into your inner sanctum. Like, be scared, be cautious. And that's the whole thing is like, right.

Letting someone in is so dangerous. Um, that's the larger metaphor of love and stuff like that. But in the time of mushroom zombies, letting someone into your barbed wire fence compound is, like, a dangerous proposition. And like, Frank, as much as he, I believe truly comes to love Bill is also in this moment working the angles of like trying not to get killed and maybe trying to get a meal. A meal, you know, before, a shower before he goes. I love that observation you just made about the ever present in this moment, but across the story and across every life.

Yeah. That that dissonance at play and that conflict at play in every decision you make because that danger is there. but the fact that Bill makes this decision to let Frank in, to let anyone in, to have a human interaction for the first time in, I mean, we can safely assume the four years since the outbreak, but it ends up being the most important person in his life and in a story where mistrust and suspicion

pervade and for good reason, that's the thing. Like, it's not like it's a story telling us to... The danger's real. To cast that instinct aside. It's that we have to be able to, like, we and the characters have to be able to hold on to those two truths at once. So how do you move forward in a moment like this and embrace somebody who is going to unlock a love and a life for you that reminds us that helping each other is still a choice we can make

every day. This is the test lesson to Joel. The plea to Joel at the end of episode two, save who you can save. Yeah. And I loved on the official pod, Druckman saying, you know, in the game, that episode, that section is about how even though you can survive by yourself, what are you surviving for what's left? And of course, Joe, we keep returning to the station 11 idea. Survival isn't sufficient. I don't think this would be the last time that we quote that today. And you feel it so keenly right there. And you can understand that Bill is thinking about that, again, maybe for the first time in years. He's literally a survivalist, like literally self-described survival list. This idea of something I was struck for, this quote keeps coming to mind and it's

come, I put it in like the notes of three different podcasts and never hit on it. This is the moment. This is the moment. I love it. But in the book remains the day, there's this quote from Ian Forrester. It's like one of the most famous quotes associated with this author. The idea is Only Connect. There's actually like a British panel show called Only Connect. But this is about the EM Forster quote. The full quote is this, only connect the pros and the passion, and both will be exalted and human love will be seen at its heights, live in fragments no longer. That idea of the pros and the passion is sort of like the heart and the head. And the way that I think about this is like Bill has the head, like he knows what to do. He knows how to go to Home Depot. He knows how to

get the generator. I would not know how to do this. He knows how to go to the natural gas plan. Yeah, Yeah, exactly. Like, he's got the head figured out, but Frank comes in with the heart, and that connection is what makes the life, the head and the heart, you know? And I think it's, I mean, it's absolutely fucking gorgeous this episode and that concept. And, like, as Van and Charles are talking about a lot, that idea of the danger, and we'll talk about this right now as we go into, like, the lunch and the piano section. Are you a big ham Forsterhead, Joe? I can't move on without asking. Huge.

Same. It would never come up. I can't believe it. Less remains the day, but room with a view is like old time. Rupert of her. I'm sorry, I said it remains a day like twice. It was Howard Zend. Howard Zend is one of my, I think, most like creases in the spine.

Really? I love that. Rames the Day, of course, is also an Anthony Hawkins, Emma Thompson joint, but that is a Casso Oshigoro book, and I apologize. Okay. So Frank is still like working the angles a little. bit. Like, how can I make myself useful? Right? This is a question in apocalypse. This is the question you always ask when we're like, how would I survive as on the apocalypse? And I'm always like,

what can I contribute? And what I always end up with is nothing. And I would probably die quickly. But Frank spots the dust on the mantle. And he's just sort of like, I can help make this house a home a bit more than it currently is. And it's something that strikes me about, especially as they like go to the piano and he's like, you know, these, you know, these dustier classical, I mean, actually, tells from Hoffman and stuff like that, like good classical music, but like, he's like, this isn't you. Yeah. Ah, the Linda Rons does you.

But like watching Bill post up in this house that is clearly decorated by his mom, his dead mother. He's just living among his dead mother's things. And he has not done anything other than in the bunker to make this house reflective of who he is. And it remind me of Tess and Joel sort of squatting in this place. back in the QZ and not doing anything to make it their home and they're just surrounded by the artifacts of the dead in their area and the way in which like as we discussed about that and as Tess said this is not my home about that place right back in the QZ that's not my home you know and Frank is like okay I can make this house a home interesting moment I could not have loved this dust moment more obviously there's so much to break down to talk about with the actual meal and the details of the way, first of all, just the table setting and the finery and the way what Bill has prepared and the way that he turns the plate for formal dining and the way that he pours the wine

properly and reveals the label not only to Frank, but to us so that we will understand in full when they're having their final meal that this is the exact bottle of wine and the exact meal that they shared together for the first time at this lunch. And obviously we have a lot to talk about with Linda Rodstad, our gal, the dust, the sweeping of the finger. I loved this so much because Bill, as you've noted and as we've talked about already, is like seemingly more well-suited to and equipped for this moment, this apocalyptic existence, this dystopia than anyone, knows how to navigate it with a plume. There is a level, not only of him inhabiting this space that was someone else's, but of preserving and tending that.

space that he is just simply not thinking about. And that's what Frank is going to call him out on later when they have their fight in the street and Frank wants the paint and the gasoline for the lawnmower and they have a beautiful exchange that we will talk about more when we get to that scene. And then as they age, everything is immaculate, shiny surfaces everywhere, the watering of the plants. Those plants are there for Frank. Those plants are there because Frank taught Bill got Bill to accept that the way that you show love is by paying attention and caring. Paying attention. So important. And then when Joel and Ellie get there and Ellie slides the key forward on the table, it leaves a track mark in the dust, which is built up again in their absence.

Because only when they die, does that creep in again? Like the life that they shared together kept it at bay. It's just an amazing detail and touch. And all the moms are, all the flowers are dead. The flowers are dead. The dust is returned. And once again, they are now surrounded by the artifacts of another set of dead people, right? You know? All right. So let's talk about Linda Rodstad. The selection of this song, Mason told a great story on the official podcast about how he was looking for a song that describes a state of permanent, lonely heartache, quote unquote.

And I love that, like, Seth Rideski, someone that I absolutely love, who is the host. on the XM Broadway channel. I just like watch Seth Rodesky YouTube clip sometimes is the one who like came up with this song selection. Perfect. Iconic instantly. And it's one of those TV moments that you love. You know, I think about,

there's a performance, a bad performance by Justin Thoreau of Homer Bound, the Simon and Garfunkel song in this incredible episode of leftovers. Make your own kind of music from Lost. And of course, like more recent example, running up that hill. And Stranger Things, the way in which TV episode can transform a song forever and forever make you associate with some degree of emotion or poignancy. You know what I mean?

I can't hear that Cass Elliott song without thinking about Desmond. You know what I mean? And especially with this Linda Ronstadt song, which is both beautiful but also not commonly played, but will now become more commonly played because of its use here. and the way in which Murray Bartlett had an accomplished singer and piano player had to butcher it and then Nick Offer, again, like,

it's not a perfect performance, but it's an emotional performance, the way in which Bill plays this. And that's, again, you know I love a musical moment, but it always matter, like, it doesn't matter if someone can't sing perfectly if they're singing emotionally. Like, if they had dubbed over a perfect, like,

singer singing that song, it would have been horrid. But this is just so incredible. I know that you have a personal connection to Linda Ronset. You want to tell me your Linda Hart, the feelings? I texted you and Chris the second I finished this episode to say that it was just extraordinary. And then the second thing I said after that was just about Linda Ronstadt. Oh, my God. I have so many things I would have talked about here.

We could do a whole episode just on long, long, long. time. I, you know how you hear a thing or you smell something and it just pours you back to a moment in your life? But then from that moment, you travel forward throughout the rest of your life, which is like what this episode showed us about other characters. This did this for me. I, when I was a kid, my parents are divorced, as you know, you know, my dad was a real Bob Dylan, Tom Waits guy, right? And I got a lot of my musical taste for my dad. My mom would always have a tape or a CD going. and she's a lot of Simon Agarfunkel, a lot of Chicago, still some of my favorites to this day, a lot of Billy Joel, a lot of Bee Gees, tons of

Linda Ronsat all the time. In fact, I texted her about this. She's not watching The Last of Us, but I had to tell her about this, and we had a very sweet moment where we were reminiscing about how, because she wouldn't just play it, she would sing. She would sing Linda Ronsat to me and to my sister Allison all the time when we were kids. And it just made me like so nostalgic. and long, long time was always my favorite Linda Ronstadt song. I think long before I had the emotional awareness or maturity to understand why I was drawn to it, it just struck me as so deeply sad and full of such longing. And then you grow up and, you know, everybody has like a person or people who come into

their life and like maybe you want something to happen and it doesn't. And this was always one of those songs that I thought about. So this was just an incredible thing. And I hope that we've already seen some articles about Linda Ronstat's Spotify stream. skyrocketing. I hope it keeps happening forever. This is just so great. And I thought that there were a few things. Like you mentioned the, these aren't yours moment already. Actually, before we talk about that, what's your Linda-R-Sat relationship? I want to know what Linda means to you. Oh, well, two things. One, we did not listen to a lot of Linda Rodset albums,

but we wore out Graceland, the Paul Simon album and Linda has like a guest, a beautiful guest track on that album. That was like my main association with Linda Ronset. a kid. But I actually, I met her a couple times because I served on, I, I worked for this organization called City Arts and Lectures in San Francisco where Linda lives. She was on the board of the organization. So, like, I wasn't like pals with her or whatever, but I through work, met her a couple times. And like, the thing about Linda Rod said later in her life is she became an intensely private person. She sort of retreated from like, so the way in which like, like, like, I think she's a, I mean, I don't want to armchair analyze her, but I think you can hear it

in her music. She's a person who feels like. incredibly intensely. And like people like that sometimes have to sort of go back into their shell at a certain point to protect themselves. And so I was just like thinking about her and how private and protected she became later in her life and how that relates to Bill and his little shell that he has created around himself. And so like that just made it even more of a perfect choice for this episode, you know. I love these little stories. This is so wonderful. You mentioned Joe the

yuck these aren't yours moment when Frank is going through the sheet music and then the ah, this is you when he sees Linda Onstep. And I love that he can already tell, you know, you said to that earlier moment of recognition, but like much, much more a sense of just

who Bill is completely and like the idea of music is a way into your soul, right? But seeing Bill clearly and you have to wonder like when has Bill had that experience before? Has he ever? Never. And how meaningful and the momentous nature of that. And I agree with you about the actual musical rendering. The perhaps great indication of how I love music but have no musical ability myself.

I was listening to Frank's rendition. I was like, I could tell that I'm supposed to think that this. is bad, but I think this sounds great. I would keep listening to this. This is dope. And then when Bill takes over and plays two things. One, the palpable pain as he is playing and singing, like you mentioned the story of the song choice and why it was chosen and how this is, like, an iconic song about unrequited love and unattainable love and unfulfilled love, like lonely love, like a love that is not shared. And the gentle, with which he is playing, with this like full of like searching and this quiet little rendition

was just so beautiful and moving. And then I think because of course we get another moment with this song later in the truck when Ellie pops in the cassette tape, which we'll talk about later when we get to Joel and Ellie. But it feels very purposeful like which lyrics were chosen in this scene and which lyrics were featured in that scene. And we'll get to the lyrics that are featured with Joel and Ellie later. But what is Bill singing here? Like there's no one at my side. This is about isolation and loneliness and a person who can completely redefine that reality for you. This was just like so lovely. So, so, so lovely. I think this idea of Bill having lived his life up to this point, you know, he's a man, we would say probably in his 40s, right, in 2003, something like

that. And a man who, it's 2003, you know, what is the larger cultural, uh, ideas around homosexuality, something that several of our listeners pointed out a lot of people have is that gay marriage wasn't legal in the country at this point. Nationally, gay marriage wouldn't be legalized in this state until the following year, 2004. And so, and this idea, we got a great email from listener Luke who said, like, the fact that Bill is a survivalist with the Don't Tread on Me poster means he had to hear people in his online circles bash queer people and go on conspiracy theories about the gay agenda. Like that's what was in the soup in 2003 for Bill.

And also, we got an email from a listener, Molly, talking about the, given the timing for these two characters, Bill and Frank, these were two men who grew up in the height of the AIDS pandemic, given their age in 2003, right? And so she said, Bill represents the preparedness for it falling, part in a physical resource way, while Frank represents that knowledge emotionally and how important community is to survive it. So these twin reactions to, you know, a plague that hit their community, you know, but the main point is Bill hasn't really even been a part of this community in his life. So the fear in his eyes, when Frank goes in for the kiss, the tears and the fear,

and it looks to me so visually similar to the horrifying kiss that test experience at the end of last week's episode. Obviously, different contexts is at the beginning of a beautiful romance that is the end of a woman's life. But that fear, the risk, the danger, I love that the show is saying the danger of love feels as real as the danger of the end of your life. You know what I mean? The risk feels that high. And I just blown away. And we're not even, we're only like a little bit into this story. Anything you want to say about the smooch?

No. The way that, because Frank asks first, you know, who's the girl that you're singing about, the Rosneau girl, I know. Right. The hand on the shoulder and then leaning in for the kiss. And when Bill kisses him back and reaches out for him and stands up and the way that he is like quivering. You know, the, again, I think there's just such an amazing tenderness at play in this scene. You know, we follow them upstairs.

Frank tells Bill to take a shower. Frank has already enjoyed his shower before their lunch. She asked if you could have five more minutes. Like these moments throughout the episode will get another, I think, like, Pantheon, one with the strawberries shortly. Yeah. You're reminded of the beauty of a simple pleasure. and like the simple pleasure of sharing a first experience like that with somebody. And for Bill, this is the first experience like this that he has had.

And when Frank asks him, you know, is this your first time? This is a long time ago with a girl. But like, first time like this, right? And Frank saying, I'm going to start with the simple things. Like, of course, there's the literal application of that for them in bed. But it's this broader thing about like the simple things of building a life together with somebody brick by brick. and the first thing is letting them in. The first thing is choosing to share your life with them at all.

And there's like a profound poignancy at play in these moments that is just, we spend, this is a long episode, like the first episode of The Last of Us. We open with Joel and Ellie. We end with Joel and Ellie. We have 46 minutes by my potentially wrong math with Bill and Frank in the middle. That's slightly shorter than a normal hour of TV. we feel like we have lived a complete life with these two. And so every moment has to tell us something of supreme importance about who they are individually and who they are together.

And you think of like, I was thinking back to all of the conversations on our pods and many others about like the time jumps in House of the Dragon saying, what do you lose when you're not seeing things in between? And just how hard it is, like the incredibly high degree of difficulty of conveying something with that level of new. nuance and care and completeness when you are skipping these wise spots of time. And so, again, just structurally, in addition to the writing and the performances and the scoring and everything, it's just a really like structurally brilliant and kind of bold episode. Very precise, I think. And like to go to cut from this incredibly poignant, romantic interaction to three years

later, bang in the middle of an argument. But again, scenes from a marriage, this is part of it. all, right? Like this, the yelling and the fighting is part of what Mason was talking about in terms of like, what does it really mean to be in a long-term committed relationship with someone? And it's not all strawberries and bojolet, you know what I mean? Certainly not. Yeah. Sometimes it's arguing the middle of the street. And we start, and Frank says there's so many interesting parallels and foils, right? The clear, we're coming up. We're coming up, on, you know, Tess and Joel enter the scene and the clear parallels between those two couples,

right? But when Frank says to hear to build, do I ask for things ever? Of course we have to think about Tess last week saying, I don't ask you for anything not to feel the way I felt, you know what I mean? And so like, immediately we're in this like head heart space thinking about Tess. Frank enjoys, I think probably definitely a much clear connection with Bill than Tess was ever able to achieve. But that, you know, that's a shot. I like gasped at that moment

and the reminder of Tess who was just like so frequently recently not with this. Yeah. I was thinking of Tess a lot in part because thank the old gods of the new alike we got Anator back in this episode. I hope we continue to get flashback so that we can spend more time with her. But I was thinking just more broadly

with the Bill and Frank relationship of Tess's moment with Joel near the end of episode two where she's like, maybe we can actually win. Like, why can't you accept the idea that maybe we could actually win? And the context of this life

inside of this terrible thing that has befallen mankind, like the pandemic that robbed so many people of so much gave Bill a chance to be himself and find love, but that there are all these other parts of his life that are still the same. And so, like, I love that because you don't change completely just because you welcome somebody into your heart.

You grow together and then there are these stubborn parts of you that you can't shake. The fight in the street loved. Loved, loved, loved. Already alluded to the line, but paying attention to things, it's how we show love was just such an extraordinary, beautiful idea and so true. And I think that the show's ability to sum up something fundamental about existence and connection in a single sentence is like pretty rare. Again, the humor and these like dire circumstances, the boutique are we hosting formal garden parties now? This is just wonderful. The conversation about friends, about friendship. Like Frank saying we are going to have friends and Bill saying,

excuse me, we don't have friends, Frank. We will never have friends because there are no friends to be had. Well, you see in that moment that even though these two people have built something together, they're each holding on to the thing they were before too, right? And for Frank, that was building fostering connection, making friends, finding new people. And for Bill, it was like complete isolation, right? Like, this made me really, really sad because Bill had this wonderful stranger, literally wander into his yard and fall into a trap that he had built, and enriched his life completely, but he's still not ready to open himself up to more people. And like, Frank for him is very much the exception, not the new rule. And it feels like this very rare thing to protect from

other people. Like the fence you build is there to keep that in, not to let other people in to share it with you. And so that all builds toward like the really beautiful lesson that Bill imparts to Joel in the letter later. But the launch, like the pairing up of, you know, we get some nice just backstory and insights about how the radio codes came to be. and who found whom, and we see that Frank and Tess are kind of pairing off. There's a lot of humor about, like, the gone and, what? You're also a paranoid schizophrenic? I'm not schizophrenic.

This is great. Anatoorv gets a better wig. You know, it's all good things that are happening here. Yeah, the hair was glossy and wonderful here in 2010 still. But I was thinking about Joel in Tess, too, and what this tells us about their history, because they were close enough at this point, 2010 in the timeline, to have made this trip together, to have gone and done this thing together, meaning that they had been together

for long enough at that point to feel that like we are this unit that does this stuff together. We navigate the world as one. And so it makes her death hit even harder, but it also makes the way that we think about Joel's embrace or lack thereof of what they shared,

even sadder and more severe to parse. Like, this is clearly the person other than Tommyo is the closest to have for the better part of two decades. And so there's a real emptiness with her gone, but also like how much emptiness was present in their time together as you were as you were asking last week. Yeah, this moment where, you know,

as Tess and Frank have left Joel and Bill alone, right? And Joel's like, I get it, man. And he's like, if my... Right. And he stumbles. Like, he can just say mine, but he can't say partner, girlfriend, whatever about Tess. Like he's not...

The person I love. Yeah. Yeah. He's not doing, he's not making her Facebook official, you know what I mean, in the time of the mushroom apocalypse. And we see, too, that just Bill very clearly is not interested in this, right? And Joel is practical about it. He's issuing the recruitment pitch. I can get you the aluminum that you need to preserve and restore your fence. Even something like him saying they're decent people and makes us think back to Tess telling Ellie in episode two, like we're not good people. And so you think, well, what happened between 2010 and 2023 that may be changed? the way they saw themselves, how much of that is caught in that time there. But just like this moment with Bill and Joel alone at the table, after Frank has gone to give test the tour,

that Bill is just appalled that Frank would issue and share. Like, we see the reluctance, the active reluctance. And so it made for me later when after Bill is shot and he tells Frank to call Joel. And then, of course, when he leaves the letter to Joel, all that much more impactful. because even though there wasn't a lot of love, and he even says, like, I don't like you.

In the letter, there was a trust that they built together over time and a strength in that. He says it's like we're friends almost. Do you know what I mean? Like, these are the bonds that Bill is willing. And like, to go back to your, I think it's really interesting that idea of the fence because, like, you know, when we think about a fence and we think about a fence is either to keep something out or to contain something in, right? I think also Bill's fear about expanding their tribe from a tribe of two to like a tribe of four or whatever.

And we have to think about that expanse quote about tribes get small, right? How small is your tribe? How big are you willing to make it? I wonder, since he has found this thing that he never had, this relationship with Frank, I have to think that Bill being the like combination of insecure and, you know, bravado that he has in him, I have to wonder if he's worried that like, oh, if Frank meets literally anyone else, would he choose them over me? You know what I mean? Like, I can't even let this person meet anyone else because surely I wouldn't be this person's first choice.

You know, surely only in this circumstance have we found each other. Like, that's not the text, but that's just something like a layer of meaning I was decided to lay over it. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound terseptide may be able to help. Help. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity, or some adults with overweight who also have weight-related medical problems to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off. Zepound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligram injection. Zepound contains terseptide and should not be used

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Taking Zepbound with a sulfonal urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-99 or visit zepbounds.lily.com. Should we go to the strawberry patch? Absolutely. It's 2013. It's a very, of course, like Garden of Eden imagery, right? Like two people in a garden sharing a piece of red fruit.

This, you know, this is their paradise that they have made together. But it's only through that community with Joel and Ellie. Right. Sorry, Joel and Tess that they are like able to get the strawberry seeds. Right. To have this moment. Witch gun! Yeah.

Small one. Don't worry about it. And this is where we get, of course, that really poignant quote. I mean, paying attention to things, that line from Frank that you've mentioned a couple times is maybe my second favorite line from this episode. I think it's like one of the theses of this season. But I was never afraid until he showed up. This one has a couple bangers this stretch.

And that one, and I like you older, older means we're still here. Yeah. And I mean, Nick Offerman in this role, you know, something that may be. and was saying about, like, cast, so originally Con O'Neill, who a lot of people know from his very recent work on Our Flagmeans' death, where he has created, you know, made a gay icon of himself over on our flag means death. But, like, you know, he's been on the stage. He's on The Batman.

He's an incredible actor. And I was trying to invent, he was originally cast this role. And then he was too busy on our flag mean death, so they went out to Nick Offman. So I was trying to imagine Con O'Neill in this role. And he's like, he's a very funny guy as well. But it's a very different flavor. And so to have Nick Offerman and Murray Bartlett, who are Bartlett, who are both very funny and drop a bunch of zingers, which you have mentioned throughout this podcast. And then to watch Nick Offerman in such a vulnerable place here.

I was never afraid until you showed up. The contrast, especially of like what we expect from a Nick Offerman performance. Though he's done this in some films and stuff like that. Like, I've seen him do this before. But, like, it's killer. What are some of the other moments in this scene that you want to highlight? Just a perfect scene in a perfect episode of television. The way that they moan with pleasure is they each take this bite of a strawberry.

They laugh like children. They are just experiencing this beautiful, pure joy that has become incredibly difficult to attain or provide for another person or yourself. Like the sweetness of life, something that you grow in the earth. And we'd seen right away Bill's garden, you know, pulling carrots. They're self-sufficient, as he had told Joel. But there's a tiny indulgence in this that feels important. Let yourself be happy. Survival is insufficient.

Here it is in the form of a strawberry. And like that kind of perfect morsel that feels increasingly impossible, there are reasons to keep going. And this is what living really looks like. taking that bite, sharing it with somebody, you're in a part of the phase of existence where you're not surrounded by all of these distractions every day. You just have each other and you have the things that you build and tend together. So of course it made me think of our station 11 line, but it made me think of Tolkien too in our conversations of the rings of power on about gardeners and subcreators and healers and the power of that, of deciding to plant something in the earth and build a community and a fellowship. And it also made me think of his dark materials. We were recently talking on our mailbag episode about the wonderful scene where Mary shares her history with Will and Lyra and the passage in Amber Spyglass in the book when she describes, and this is multiple pages where she describes the impact of the Marzapan, but I thought of this one passage in particular, at half past nine in the evening at the restaurant table in Portugal, someone gave me

a piece of Marzapan, and it all came back. And I thought, am I really going to spend the rest of my life without ever feeling that again. And I thought, I want to go to China. It's full of treasures and strangeness and mystery and joy. I thought, will anyone be better off if I go straight back to the hotel and see in my prayers and confess to the priest and promise to never fall into temptation again? Will anyone be the better for me, for making me miserable? And the answer came back, no.

Take your pleasures. And what I love about this scene is, like, they have so many creature comforts, right? They have hot water when so many people don't have out. water. They have all these things, but they're still capable, there are still things that are capable of inspiring that, oh my God, I haven't had a strawberry in like 20 years or something like that, you know? Absolutely. And the way that it makes you afraid, too, to your recurring tracking of fear, like, when Bill apologizes for getting older and for getting older faster than Frank, and Frank says, I like you older, older means we're still here.

another just incredible line, gorgeous idea. And for Bill, that is, you know, this encapsulation of the thing that he fears is not this new world order. He was ready for that. The thing he fears is nature. The thing he fears is that this person that he has opened himself up to would maybe be left alone and that he wouldn't be there to care for him anymore. And then for Frank, it's that the pain and frailty that we naturally fear and worry over could be this like welcome thing. You know, this sign that you made it, that you beat this other thing that was encroaching on normalcy and the reality of life, that you could actually grow beyond that and find somebody who you wanted to nourish. It's just so lovely. And yeah, of course, I mean, the other line you mentioned,

I was never afraid before you showed up. I just, Frank's face when he hears Bill say that, I just have to imagine that that's the most meaningful thing anyone has ever sent him in his life, right? And like, it would be the most meaningful thing I think most of us had ever heard. And Anybody say, like, the idea that the apocalypse is not as scary to somebody as losing you specifically? And that fear isn't always a bad thing because it can give you that purpose and it can give you that mooring and that meaning. So at the top of the episode, along with this line, we smuggled in an exchange from Station 11 where a character named Jeevan says, I was always afraid. It's a really strong, you know, if you haven't been just Station 11, we've heard from a lot of people that they have since we've been. talking about it so much.

So please do go watch Station 11. It's such an incredible show. But that idea of like the fear in love. And then of course the Marva quote from Andor that we also smuggled in at the top, that's just love. You know, that's like, yeah, you'll be afraid. You'll be afraid all the time. That's just what love is.

That's just it. That is it. And that is the risk that pairs the reward. You know what I mean? The worry, the fear. And this fear that Bill has as a protector, he describes, you know, he describes himself and Joel as protecters later on. That's the kind of people they are.

That he will not be able to protect Frank. What will happen to Frank if Bill dies? And then, of course, we get this, you know, surprise a couple years later. It is not Bill that is in danger of going. It is, well, first we had an attack. First, the Raiders. Exactly what Joel said would happen. Yeah.

The attack. Bill is shot. Bill is shot crucially when he's distracted by Frank, right? He's out on the street and Frank calls out to him. He turns around and he gets shot. He might have gotten shot anyway. And Frank is calmly, very calmly caring for him. And as you mentioned, Bill says, called Joel, which is a huge change.

He'll take care of you. Yeah. And then we cut to the jump and it's Frank who is frail. Absolutely heart-wrenching. Ten years later. Yeah. Mazina said that this is either, they didn't want to specify it as either MS or early ALS, but what that means is that we get a continuation of the shaking hand motif that we've seen

again and again with Joel's fractured hand, with the mycologist shaking of her teacup when she figures out the full impact of what's going on with this fungus invasion, with the earliest tremors that tests experiences, etc., with the infection of the fungus. And so this a continuing idea of the show of fear, love, you know, all this sort of thing. All this stuff is in danger of invading and infecting and impacting us. And the result is almost as same as, of course, it down your throat. Yeah. And then we get the Max Richter score on the nature of daylight that a lot of people know from the film arrival that people either loved or considered a dirty cheat code to your emotional gooey core.

Tell me what you thought about this one more good day sequence. Just the heart-wrenching nature of you think you're going to lose Bill after he's been shot and is bleeding out on the table. And then you're relieved when you hear a friend calling to him and realize he's still there. And then you see that they've grown old together, but you see Frank. And like on the one hand, there's this unfairness to it that you could beat the infected, that you could survive the attack of the Raiders, that you could, you could, you could make it through the crumbling of civilization only to succumb to something that could have gotten you before, but also like the embrace of Frank's line from the prior scene. I like you older. Older. We're still here. That this is, this is again a sign of that winning in a way because they made it to this point in their lives where this happened. And they got to share like 16 years together. And, you know, again, these little things like where we see, we see Frank painting. We see walls. Across all of the rooms in the home, we see these paintings hanging. And, like, you noted earlier that it feels at the beginning, like Bill is just in somebody else's house.

And so these touches of their time together and the life that they have built and shared and Bill watering those flowers, like this thing that he is just would never have done previously that he's doing for Frank paying attention to things. It's how we show love. Just so beautiful. And when you go forward and Frank tells Bill that this is his last day and asks him, for the things that he wants, the trip to the boutique, the marriage, their meal together to go to bed

and fall asleep in his arms. There's an idea here that was also present in an earlier scene about like, love me the way I want you to. Yes. Which was really struck me. Like, it's okay to tell somebody else what you need. I just thought that was beautiful.

And Frank's, as they're sitting in the living room, And Frank is saying to Bill, like, I'm not going to give you that every day was a wonderful gift from Godspeech. She says, I've had a lot of bad days. I've had bad days with you, too, but I've had more good days with you than with anyone else. I mean, just like heart wrenching. And again, this is so sad, but it's like very affirming, I think. Yeah, I just don't think it's tragic.

Right? I think it's like... And Bill even says that, right? Right. There's this quote that they put in from the play of the boys in the band, this isn't the tragic suicide at the end of the play, right? They lifted that and put it into Bill's mouth when he decides that it's his last day as well. And it was a real...

I'm just going to shout out justified and say it was a real... It was already in the glass moment. And if you haven't seen justified, you don't know. And if you have, you do know, you can experience yourself. But it was already in the glass. Right? And, like, Bill's decision to end his life here has sparked some conversation online. There's this, you know, we do this tropes course thing, I guess now in the ringerverse, but there's this trope called barrier gays, which is this idea that, like, gay love is not allowed to, like,

just simply exist in film and television often. And up until recently, like, almost always, there was some sort of, like, tragic ending to this story. And so some people are like, okay. we watch this gay love story and then they die at the end. Is this just a longer version of a deeper version than we get in the game of that trope? You know, Mal and I don't necessarily feel qualified to weigh in one way or another. But I will just read from this email we got from our listener, Amanda, who identified as queer, said, what is significant about Bill and Frank's death is not only did they have the opportunity to live and grow old together in the apocalypse, but they had the dignity of dying without being killed.

Frank chose this day as his last. It was not ripped away from him like Sarah and the rest of them. Bill and Frank lived out their days making art, cultivating strawberries, cooking beautiful meals, and made connections outside of their apocalypse bubbles in Joel and Test. Bill looked forward to the world burning, and Frank showed up to give this scorched earth meaning again. So I know this episode meant a lot to a lot of people, and, you know, it's, of course, okay to have your criticism about the episode, too, but obviously I really hit Mal. And yours truly in a major way. Is this maybe a spot, Joe, to chat for a second about some of the differences between the relationship in the game in a little more detail just because, you know, this is a snapshot. This is a longer stretch of the game, at least for me it was because I'm quite poor at playing this game, though I'm loving it. But we chatted a bit already about the setting. You know, Bill lives. They drop Bill off as they're driving out of town. Frank, as you noted, is already dead.

He's been bitten. He hangs himself. but as part of that, one of the things that Joel finds is a letter that Frank has left for Bill. And here's what it says. This is the note

that their story ends on in the game. Well, Bill, I doubt you'd ever find this note because you were too scared to ever make it to this part of town. But if for some reason you did, I want you to know I hated your guts. I grew tired of the shitty town and of your set in your way as attitude.

I wanted more from life than this and you could never get that. And that stupid battery you kept moaning about, I got it. But I guess you were right. Trying to leave this town will kill me. Still better than spending another day with you. Good luck, Frank. So a couple things. One, the battery note in particular really struck me as ominous for Joel, like shifting that from Bill to Joel here as this obsession of his that is maybe inhibiting his ability to welcome love into his life in whatever form that might take. But obviously that is an incredibly grim and sour note for the end of their relationship. And there's a stretch where Bill is alluding to his partner and talking about like the idea of protection and thinking you needed to protect another person as this like terrible limiting thing that he wasn't able to embrace.

So this is a really drastic tonal shift that I think has given us a beautiful. rendering of love and a life shared. And so when Bill says, like, this isn't tragic, like, it is sad, of course, but I felt the beauty of that. And of Frank giving Bill something to live for and something to fight for and someone to love and nurture and choose to protect and that person becoming his reason. And when he says to Frank at the table, I'm old, I'm satisfied. and you were my purpose. Yeah. It is just the complete encapsulation

of the thing that they built together. And I thought it was just beautiful. And when Frank says, take me to bed and they have a moment where they're sort of nuzzling. We don't, I love that we didn't see them. Like, we don't see them actually settle into bed there, but we also, of course, We certainly don't see their corpses later.

And it's like that's a moment for them. They have found peace together. And that's that's their thing to share. To go back to, I mean, like the way that Bill in the game talks about this is so sad watching it after this episode and watching him talk bitterly about I had someone and, you know, think good ridden sort of thing. You know, it's horrifying. But this idea that like. W.R. Brown. Voice of Bill.

The idea that they had this, they had this fight in the street in this episode, and they found out a way to stay. That, you know, we support a healthy divorce here in this podcast. Like, it's fine. Sometimes people don't belong together. That's fine. But, like, I would argue that the harder thing to do is to stay. You know what I mean? Sometimes it's good to go.

You should go. But, like, it's hard to stay. And they did the harder thing, which is bend, yield, make space for someone in your life. It made me think of this Buffy quote, which is the hardest thing in this world is to live in it. Like, you know, this idea of just like making the decision every day to go forward. Keep going. Keep going. What are you going to do? All right.

So speaking of people who are going forward, it's Joel and Ellie. Right. We're in full lone wolf and cub territory now, you know. Absolutely. We're on the road. Just the two of them. We get that image of that we get the downed plane, which of course made me think of that. Station 11 quote that we read last week about, you know, no more cities.

There's a whole section there about no more airplanes, no more seeing cities from like, you know, how many thousand feet in the air is little dots down below. Like the planes are down. And then we get this conversation about blame. What did you think of this? This is, again, very different from what happens here in the game. What happens here in the game is what happens at the end of this episode, which is like, here are the rules if you're going to stick with me. But before we get to that, here we have this conversation about blame.

What did you think of it? You made a choice, so don't blame me for something that isn't my fault. First of all, this was a great stretch for Joel's jacket. And me and Chris have been enjoying a lot of great outerwear texting recently. So got to call out the roll of the jacket played. Can we have Jody do like a, like an XY axis of TV jackets? It's a great idea. Andrew long ago had an excellent Yellowstone blog about the jackets of Yellowstone.

So we can continue our proud tradition. Love it. I really liked that moment. I liked Ellie saying that to Joel. I thought that it showed her, her, like, wisdom and maturity and the fact that she's willing and able to stand up for herself and see things in like a clear mind. way. But then the creators, I thought it was really interesting that they noted, like, she's lying to herself too. She does feel a level of culpability for what happened. And I think, again, like the fact that both of those things can be true, you know, the general

nature of watching this obviously, like what you said is right. We'll always call this the Bill and Frank episode. But I really loved the Joel and Ellie stretches in this episode as well. And the way that we get to watch their rapport evolve over time, you have this kind of like, the way that Joel concedes the point here, it's a meaningful thing. The rapid fire question and answer, there's the conversation in front of the plane and this great moment for perspective, like, dude, you got to go into the fucking sky, right? And like the context of the life you're now and the life you lived before, Joel even calling her out, like, man, you like, you ask a lot of questions. And there's just this incredibly palpable parent and child energy to those exchanges.

and the way that Joel responds to each one and how that shifts over the course of the episode to the point where by the end, he's like, do you know who Linda Ronset is? He's the one asking her questions, right? Yeah. And I just really, I really enjoyed that. And of course, we also get some, like, key exposition

in these stretches where we learn about the flower theories confirmed, right? We learn about the, we think back to the pancake mix moment, of course, and we learn about the way that cortisps infiltrated through the food supply and we're getting, key lore download, but also the evolution of their relationship. And I mean, this is the nature of the game, right? It's like, as we go and shoot people, also, we are slowly unfurling our stories to each other. And later, you know, when Joel runs down his rules and one of them is like, you know,

we're not going to talk about our share our histories. Like, that's exactly what you're going to do. Like, that's exactly what this is. You know what I mean? We go to the convenience store. Ellie finds some tampas very, very, very important in the mushroom podcast. I'm sicked over my ass. It's so funny.

We get to your point about this banter, the rapport, the repeat of the just you, dad joke, right? That like, it's now become an inside joke. It's a running bit now, you know what you mean? And once you have a bit with someone, like you're halfway there, I think. Once you have a bit with someone, you can start doing a podcast.

Should Joel and Ellie launch a podcast from the road? What do you think? A hundred percent. They would be excellent together, because it would just be like Joel grunting and Ellie just like running her mouth. And then we had Ellie going down into the basement. Yes. She seems like a bad idea no matter what.

But like Luthin would have advised, she built her exit on the way in. So that's, she's got more sound scouting techniques in some ways than Joel who like didn't spot the torn apart human body in the gift shop in the museum. And who here is just like, you go back there without. Do you know where I don't want to go in a sunless space or in a basement where notoriously mushrooms grow? Mushrooms love a basement. So that's not ever where. I'm never going down there. Ellie goes down there and has this like.

If you did, though, would you hungrily cut the flesh of a infected person drape? Yeah, so that I could make mushroom bourgonillon. I was like, I need some mushrooms. Or thank you guys. That was a great recipe. People sent me mushroom borignon delicious from the New York Times. Yeah. But I wouldn't just stab it.

I would like shave some of those tasty mushrooms off. A friend of my... A friend of my... Friend of my was texting me about Tess, and he's like, oh, well, I bet she's delicious on a pizza now. I do love a mushroom pizza, as you know, love. All right. We get, you know, Julie only roll up to Bill and Franks. The flowers are dead.

That's how Joel knows that something's wrong, right? like Frank would never let the flowers die. Like this would never happen. And no one greeting them at the gate, no sound of like anyone. It has to, right away is like stay back. Immediately something's something's off. But shout out a listener, Sarah, who emailed us about the flowers. Then we get the exploration of the house, the mysterious door slamming,

which might be a result of just Bill and Frank leaving the window open and that causes the door to slam. But I don't know. It just felt very ghosty and spooky to me. and stops Joel from going into the bedroom and violating Bill's wish that he doesn't know about yet, because then we get the letter. And finding the letter, as you already mentioned in terms of finding Frank's letter in the game, finding a letter on a video game is such like, you know, I'm not playing this game, but I have played video games where you go around and you read letters that you find gone home.

I have collected a lot of scraps of paper. This is a classic sort of video game moment is to stop and read a letter. What do you want to say about the letter here? So many different things. First of all, like when, before this, when Joel tells Ellie he doesn't want, there's stuff up there I don't want you to see, like alluding to the mass grave.

And then the shift, that's obviously him being very like paternal. And then in this scene where Ellie is the one reading the letter to him, you almost feel that shifting where like he is the child in the moment on the other end of bad news that somebody is carefully delivering to him. The actual letter. I used to hate the world and I was happy when everyone died, but I was wrong because there was one person worth saving. That's what I did.

I saved him. Then I protected him. That's why men like you and me are here. We have a job to do. And then Ellie keeps reading and she cuts herself off right when she's about to get to the line, use them to keep tests safe. And Joel takes the letter and he reads it on his own. And that's when he goes outside and he kind of crumbles it up. So there are a few things here.

obviously the huge difference in this choice and this messaging compared to what is what is in the game. Again, the fact that Bill would choose to leave this letter to Joel as an indicator of how he thinks about Joel as a person in his life of value, but also the parallels that he sees between them and what that tells us about Joel, this view of their role as protectors and the weight that Joel himself puts on that too. Druckman and Mason talked about this a lot, both on Insleevesant. inside the episode and on the official pod about how, of course, this lesson is coming to Joel

too late. Tess is already gone. And now Joel, the way that he thinks about it, the way that he processes it to himself is like, I have failed once again. I failed to save Sarah. I failed to save Tess. Now, are those things fair burdens to put on himself? I would say no. But that that's a weight he's carrying. And so what baron will that have on the relationship that he's able to build? with Ellie. I'm really interested in tracking the phrase I'm sorry throughout this. I feel like we've heard it a couple significant times. And I think it's really interesting. And Joel saying, I don't want your sorries. Like that being one of his responses. Yeah. I really like this observation from one of our listeners, Bertrand, who said, I saw Joel's devastation as being less about his failure to save tests and more about his failure to love her. That's not exactly what Mason and Druckman are saying, but like I really love that interpretation. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think again, when you think about that parallel, like, if he has viewed Bill as this person who is like gruff and firm and unyielding in his approach to life but was able to experience this great love, like, is there a part of Joel hearing that and reflecting on that as like, why wasn't I able to do that? And maybe where would I be if I had been? That's very sad. I love this one when they go down to the gun-filled bunker. And it made me think of the seminal film tremors where, you know, other preppers are very. prepared for these space room invasion and there is a kid in that film who is constantly asking

for a gun and they're like, no, you don't get a gun. No, you don't get a gun. No, you don't get a gun. Ellie, of course, is after a gun here and she finds Frank's gun. Yes. And she takes it. And so now Ellie has a gun in her bag and I'm sure everything will be fine. I'm sure everything will be fine. Oh, boy. I really enjoyed this like getting ready to hit the road stretch. I liked when Joel came down from his shower and Ellie said, well, don't you. look pretty. He told her to shut up. That was just wonderful. They're in their video game outfits now. Delightfully. Tosses her the deodor. It's nice. And then they, you know, when they climb into the car, the way that Ellie is amazed by everything, you know, like in the game, she's like, yeah, I'll pop the clutch. It has much more comfort of familiarity. But I liked this. Like, again, she's just experiencing things, even the way she responded to walking into the house for the first time that she has just never seen before. We even hear her say earlier that she'd never been in the woods before. let alone in this piece of shit Chevy S-10 and Jess Joel puts it.

It's like a spaceship. No, it's like a piece of shit Chevy S-10. So funny. And then Joe, she doesn't know what a seatbelt is. And the way that he reached over to buckle her. Like that's what a parent does for their kid. And so on the one hand, he has made an active choice. This is, you know, the stretch here at the house before they set out is where he's issued the rules.

And he's deciding. He doesn't have to take her. He tells her about, very briefly, about Tommy, out in Wyoming, he used to be a firefly, maybe he can get you to this lab. It's another time that he's opting in, to her point. He's opting in to continue their journey together. But then those little things, that buckling of the seatbelt. Like, there's just a, I mean, there's a practicality to it, sure, but there's like a tenderness

to that that I found really touching. And of course, the tenderness of the Linda Rodstadt return here. But before we talk about Linda once more, is there anything else about the battery building and powering up or their, uh, their, their, they're, they're, they're, they're pilfering of the by with bill blessing their pilfering of the stores this active decision from joel yeah to to to you know the mandate from test was get her to bill and franks and he got her to bill and franks but obviously that's not going to do it right so he's like now he's like i'll get you to to to tommy right right you know like and it's and it's somewhere to elli at the beginning of the episode

being like oh just a few more we can do that right like right just a few more this is our next school. We could do it. But I thought it was really interesting. One of our listeners emailed in to highlight this episode of the Script Notes podcast, number 403, I believe it is, which is Craig Mason's podcast that he co-hosts and it's about screenwriting. But this is one where he just, like, I saw on the mic, like, it's just him talking about his philosophy of screenwriting. And so it's a good, like, skeleton key to understand, you know, decisions that he's made in this adaptation. And one of the key things that he talks about is this idea of like, you start with a character holding one belief,

you break them all the way down so that they adopt a different belief by the end of your story, right? You pull them all the way down into the depths so that they change their mind about something. And so if Joel's thesis, after Sarah dies, is better to not care about someone, and then we see him lose tests,

buying this letter from Bill and Frank, blah, blah, and he changes and he says, maybe it is better to care about someone. Like that's the journey that he's on. I mean, obviously his journey isn't done. We've got several more episodes. But that's like, that's a mini version of this larger philosophy that Craig Mason has about screenwriting. That I think is really interesting to keep in mind what it's like the thesis and the antithesis is what he calls it.

So like, what is the thesis that these various characters have? And then what is the antithesis that comes and takes his place? And then he's like, and then that antithesis becomes the thesis. And then something else comes to challenge that down the road. that came via listener Mark, and it was a really interesting listen. I really recommend it if you're interested more in Mason's a push the story. All right, you want to bring us back to Linda? Love to pod, Joe.

He loves a pod. Liza. By the way, if you're listening to this, you probably are interested in Game of Thrones. One of the iconic episodes of the Script Notes podcast is the Weiss and Bettyoff interview. You can go back to listen to that where they talk about their shitty original pilot. Great, great episode of a podcast. Anyway. Game of Thrones.

Appian of it land. All right. Bring us back to Linda. So the finding of the cassette is one of the game Easter eggs, much like finding the video game machine when they're on the road earlier. But the fact that it's Linda here again, the fact that it's long, long time. And Joel's like, I don't want to listen to me to stop, Ellie, stop. Very parent kid car vibe energy. And then when he hears what it is, he says, oh, no, wait, no, leave it, leave it.

This is good. This is Linda Ronstadt. And as they're driving out and the sun is hitting his face, and the way that he stops in front of the gate just says, oh, man. And it is like the emotion is watching over him. I feel like Joel as a character is having the same response that we as viewers have where he's just porting back to another time in his life and the way that Patriot Pascal

was able to convey that with literally two words. And Ellie's not feeling it. She says, it's better than nothing. Again, that's right out of the game. And Joel smiles. And Ellie smiles and looks at him too. and it was just an incredible moment to me. I think that 99% of television programs

end the episode with Bill and Frank and don't feel like you can go back to other characters or other moments after something that moving and that strong. And the fact that we came back to these two and that it was also deeply moving and gripping in a moment like this and that it actually enriched something for us

about their relationship, I think just shows that the Last of Us team has a confidence in the story they're telling and a command of the way that they're doing it that is pretty rare. Like in that instant, you just get a glimpse of a possible future with these two characters. And I felt a deep investment in them and their future watching that. And again, it feels like hope, right? It does. It feels like hope, but then we think of the lyrics. Okay. What do we get here? What is paired with them? Wait for the day. You'll go away, knowing that you warned me of the price I'd have to pay.

Very sad song overall, but that feels purposeful as the paired verse. And maybe some of that is about Joel and Tess and what they weren't able to forge together. Maybe it's a little bit of a warning. You know, again, Mason and Druckman have both been going out of their way, even when talking about this is a win, this is the happy story, this is the pure love episode, this recurring idea for them of the different versions of love, the lessons. of love. And so yes, I felt a surge of hope and investment and possibility. And then I had that tiny part of my brain that wouldn't let me quite shake what universe they're heading out into. Speaking of Thrones, they're trying like so hard not to the bells us, I feel like. They're

just sort of like, we gave you all the clues, Mr. Policeman. Like, you cannot accuse us of fully get the rug. All right. So that's, I think that's, that brings us to the end of this incredible episode of television. I will be thinking about it for a long, long time. Same. Thanks to Mike Morgan for his production work on this. And remember, The Fungus Loves Too.