The Prestige TV Podcast - 'The Last of Us’ Episode 5 Deep Dive

Episode Date: February 14, 2023

Joanna and Mallory are back to dive deep into Episode 5 of ‘The Last of Us.’ They break down everything from the introduction of Henry and Sam to the development of Kathleen as an antagonist. Then, they discuss the heartbreaking ending to the episode and how it could change Ellie going forward. Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Associate Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up everybody? It's Austin Rivers from the Minnesota Timberwolves. It's a new year and I have a new podcast here at the Ringer, Offguard, hosted by me and my guide, Pasha Higigi. Austin and I go way back and talk so much hoop already that we figure those time to fire up the mics and let you in on all of these conversations. Every week, Pasha and I will hit on the biggest stories happening in the league.

And get Austin's perspective of someone currently hooping in the NBA. Tap into Offguard every Friday on the Ringer NBA show feed on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. It's time to refurb. fresh your yard during spring backyard days at the Home Depot. Get low prices guaranteed on propane grills starting at $179, like the next grill 3-burner gas grill. Or get $50 off to select Weber Spirit grill and bring big flavor to your backyard. Then set the scene with Hampton Bay string lights that bring it all together.

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to Fedra? Watching us get thrown in prison? Watching us hang? so that you could get medicine, alcohol, fucking apples. Did it make you feel better? Did it make you feel safe? How does it make you feel now? Back into the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson. I have a few questions about the science curriculum

at the Fedra school that Ellie went to, but we'll get to that a little bit later. We've been blessed with a couple, We've been blessed with a couple of fun guests the last couple of episodes we've done together. But now it's just Mallory Rubin and yours truly in the content attic, covering the walls with our crayons, girls. Hi, Mallory.

How you doing? Lone Wolf and Cup. And then there were two yet again. Yeah. Just us. We're here to talk about season one, episode five of The Last of Us, endure and survive, a totally uplifting, peppy episode television. not emotionally devastated at all here for you a little early on a Monday.

Before we get into all of that, quick programming reminders, of course. Charles and Mann every week are doing instant reactions to The Last of Us, so their episode already posted on Friday. If you miss that, you can go back and listen to that. They will be back with their instant reaction on Sunday to episode six. Also, Rob Mahoney and I continue to travel along the delightful journey with Natasha Leon on Poker Face. and I'm having a really good time.

There is a wild one coming up for Ring orverse fans. A really, really wild one that I cannot wait to talk to you about. What a tease. I have a lot of thoughts and feelings about what Ryan Johnson is trying to say with this episode of poker face. Anyway, so that's happening, the Prestiage TV podcast. I recommend you catch up and keep up with us. Molly, how else can folks hear everything that we're up to? Oh, as always, the first thing to do is follow the pod.

Follow the pod on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. And, of course, check out the social feeds. The ringer crew is everywhere. We're on TikTok. We're on Instagram. We're on Twitter. I'm still out there waiting for people to rejoin Peach. Peach.

Or everywhere. And of course, in addition to following the pod and following the social feeds, you can send us your thoughts, your feelings, send Joe your latest mushroom recipes. She's still on a tear, a culinary tear. Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. Do you get any good mushroom recipes this week, Joe? I got one just the other day for a mushroom cocktail that I'm very intrigued to try out. Yeah, it involves like, you know, infusing Shataki mushrooms. into some liquor. I did have, I want to recommend. I had an incredible truffle-based pasta dish at

Seven Hills in San Francisco, if you're Bay Area, you've never been to Seven Hills, best pasta in the city, incredible. And I had never had, like, someone come to my table and shave truffles over a dish for me. And it was a whole experience. So, yeah, also on the food front. Did you feel like Nicholas Holt in an episode of The Great? He loves truffles. Yeah, and or in the menu. One version of Nicholas Holt told the other. And on the food front, I just want to let you know that Apple discourse has made a lively resurgence.

I mean, we have a new hook with this episode. Thank you, Kathleen. Yeah, apples are key to the informers and revolution. as we found out, but also in response to Patrick Somerville's shocking, red delicious disclosure last week, we got an avalanche of Honey Crisp emails, like Big Honey Crisp, scrambled the Jets and activated this past week. So good job, Chris for lobby. That's a proud member of Big Honey Crisp. I'm thrilled and not surprised. It's a passionate fan base. Congratulations to the crispers. Spoiler warning.

We've only watched Up Through Episode 5, so we're only talking about Up Through Episode 5 on this television show. Mallory is playing the game week to week. I am watching a cinematic playthrough week to week. So we are aware of what happens to the game up to this point, even though there are major differences, which we'll talk about adaptive differences. But we have not watched ahead. We've not played ahead. People keep dropping massive hints and emails to me, but like I'm doing my best to keep my blanders up and keep my nose clean. So that's where we are.

And I always say, even Mazen and Druckman, like, is. in the podcast, we'll be like, well, this will come into play later. So, you know, there are hints of dropping, but we don't know anything else that's coming for sure. Anything else before we get into the episode breakdown? I don't think so. I mean, I guess I'll just say that this was an incredible, devastating episode of television. And I can't wait to talk about it with you today. I kind of can't believe how good this show is.

not to say that I wasn't expecting it to be a good show. It was very much looking forward to it. The hype around the ringer crew was high. Obviously, people who have loved and played the game for eons were very much looking forward to it. It came into our lives with this wave of, can a video game adaptation finally be prestige TV? Can the video game adaptation curse end narrative and discussion around it? And right from the jump was quite compelling. But we're five episodes in.

this is a nine episode seasons. We're a little more than halfway, which of course Joe means I'm at my classic point of despondence. That we only have four episodes left in season one. Slipping through your fingers. Come back. I think every episode has been strong.

With episodes three and five, we have two like Pantheon Hall of Fame caliber TV episodes already, five episodes into one season of TV. That's just astonishing to me. I think in this, you know, we talked about this a bit with the Bill and Frank episode in three, but this idea that we're going to be getting these little like mini arcs with characters as we go. So the, the like absolute treasure that was Melanie Linsky, Lamar Johnson, Keevonne Woodward in this episode. Unbelievable performances.

Like just, you know, devastated to lose them for a variety of emotional plot reasons, but also just I want more time with. these performers and with these characters. And, you know, Melanie Olensky, we've seen her do a lot over her career. But Lamar Johnson and Kimon Woodard, like, I just cannot, I cannot wait to see what else, what they do from here. Same. I'm, I'm just, like, these are just astounding, astounding star-making performances from these young men. And, yeah, just unbelievable. Just so good. And shout out to Sky Crouton, who played the little girl. a contortionist clicker. She will haul my nightmares forever. Definitely the scariest thing that's happened on the show yet. Oh my God. Absolutely terrifying. This week, like last week was

written by Craig Mason and directed by Jeremy Webb. So it's like sort of they block shot the two episodes together. And this is something we talked about last week that last week was a little bit of a playsetter for this week where we get the emotional payoff of the Sam and Henry in Kathleen arcs. And also for everyone who's like, you're going to have a mushroom zombies on your a mushroom zombie show, right? There are mushroom zombies galore, the biggest action setpiece yet. So we will talk. Bloader time.

About all. It's hammer time was one thing, but bloater time, like, that's just a whole other level. All right. So we start with this violent flashback to the overthrow of the Casey Fedra, who we later find out via Henry's conversation with Joel was like, infamously. right horrifyingly awful like you know you thought the other Fedra crimes you had seen were bad this was multitudes worse we did get an email from listener Nick which I'm just going to summarize where he was basically like if Joel knew Casey Fedra like he knew their reputation why on earth would he not give that city a wide berth like why did he drive into town and be like we'll figure this out

you know what I mean like why wouldn't you just take hopefully backroads hopefully with abandoned cars with petrol in them all the way to Wyoming. You know, food for thought. But here we are in the case. It's a good question. I find my heart swelling with investment in an affection for Joel week after week. I'm very attached to Joel and Ellie as a duo more so with every minute that we spend with them.

But I have an increasingly long we have some notes list for Joel about the recon and planning. And honestly, though, I think that's part of the charm. because while he is like formidable and while his ability to exact and his penchant for violence has allowed him to survive in this world and makes him this almost mythical figure to a character like Ellie or to character like Henry in this episode, hey, you're the one who can help us get through. He's not actually a superhero. Like he's a guy trying to stay alive and make it another day in this shitty nightmare hellscape of a world. And so the mistakes that he makes, I find humanizing.

and grounding in a way that I'm actually appreciating. But every time he makes one, I'm like, look in the gift shop to see if there's a rotting corpse. Show the child who had just told you she's never been in the car. How to read a map. Maybe look at the map yourself, etc., etc. I mean, I love that Joel's a guy with bad knees and, like, one ear that doesn't work at all that sort of stuff. Like all the fallibility is really good.

Joe, on that front, not to skip ahead, but because you brought up the knees, it's reminding me when they're. after they leave the conference room and they're running into the bank building where they're going to make their way down into the tunnel. And Joel is heaving for breath. First of all, I've never seen myself so fully and clearly in Joel. I'm like, that would be me. It is, I think the Pedro Pascal performance is genuinely sublime. It's so, so, so good.

And in this episode in particular, there are so many different facial expressions, the shorthand that he and Ellie are developing just with the flick of an eyeball. asking us continually to believe that Pedro Pascal is a very out of shape aging 56-year-old is like the only tough sell of the show to me because he just looks like he's ready to go kick ass and wield the dark saber and shout I'm fucking awesome. Oh my God, your very favorite new catchphrase. I mean, they sprayed his hair with like gray dusting spray. What else do you want, Mallory? It looks great.

It looks great. She loves a little over fox. She loves a little fox. Okay. So we get this very violent opening, and we find out that it's only been 10 days since all of this happened, right? 10 days since Fedra fell here. And we get this, the, you know, someone on the loudspeaker in the truck saying, collaborator, surrender now, you will receive a fair trial. Narrator? Reader, they wouldn't. Yeah, we should have called Ron Howard to be like, they wouldn't.

give us the old rest of development treatment. That would be a remix of this episode. But I loved this moment where Henry gives Samuel like, look at me, don't look at that, look at me, which is like Joel and Sarah. That's classic. You keep your eyes on me, okay. You don't look anywhere else in episode one. Exactly.

Throughout this episode, like in putting together the notes for the, you know, we talked about this a lot with Bill and Frank where like, okay, we're like, okay, Bill is a clear analog for Joel and Frank is our test. Frank is our Ellie, depending on, like, where we are in this relationship. What I love about this episode is there are so many parallels that just sort of mix and max and remix where all these characters, Sam, Henry, Kathleen, Joel, Ellie, the deceased Michael are all each other at some point. And it's not a clear, like, okay, these are mirror sets of siblings or these are mere sets of, you know, protector and vulnerable cub.

Like, what this episode really drives home is the universal experience of what it means to care for someone. Full stop, but definitely what it means to care for someone in a harrowing situation like this. You know what I mean? So this isn't the last, like, Henry Joel mirror, but like there's also a lot of something else really complicated going on, specifically around Kathleen. I would urge people if you haven't seen already. I mean, I went quite viral, so probably you did. But to go read Melanie Linsky's great Twitter thread that she wrote last week sort of about her character or some of the interviews that she gave about Kathleen.

Because I do think they were doing something really interesting in both casting Melanie Linsky and the decision she made in her performance. And this week's episode would get the direct answer from Perry as to why all these roughnecks are following her into this. But we get this moment with her with the rats, as she likes to call them, where collaborators, if you prefer, where, like, in multiple places, including, I think, Mason Druckman, and referred to it as, like, kindergarten teacher vibes. They're sitting crisscross applesauce on the floor, and she's sitting in a chair talking to them. Mallory, what do you think of this moment?

Harrowing. In so many different ways. Little things. The first time that Edelson's name is uttered. And she is gathering this new data point. He was a collaborator, and this is, of course, we realize the doctor who we watched her execute the prior week. Well, he was a lot more discreet than you fucking idiots. Again, the show's ability to make us chuckle in these dire circumstances is something that I have a deep and abiding appreciation for.

you need those little bursts of uncomfortable humor in this context. But a sequence like the way that she is grilling and asking the collaborators for the intel on Henry, right? And you have a moment like her saying, but things have gone great. Haven't you heard? Kansas City is free. And there's a tormented nature to the way she says it that tells us this is not a character who's going to be capable of actually. embracing that or experiencing whatever freedom might look like. And then when the collaborator reveals, not the specifics, of course, they don't have that level of information, but this is

exactly, this is all I can tell you, this is what I know about where they're, where they're planning to hole up. And he says, I've told you everything I know. And her response is, of course you have. You're a rat. And like you said, this rat motif will be recurring. But the absolutely withering indictment with which she says that was so fascinating to me for a couple of reasons because on the one hand, as we're watching this for the first time, we have certain pieces of information. We know from episode four that Kathleen's brother was killed in a Fedger's cell. We know that Kathleen is after Henry.

We can start to piece together why she is after Henry, but the absolute particulars will reveal themselves to us over the course of this fifth episode. So you're wondering what exactly did Henry? Henry do, that he is the one singular focus in preoccupation amid everything that is going on and unfolding in this city. But in terms of the complexity of the morality, like, I loved this scene because it manifests on a specific individual character basis for Kathleen, for Henry, for Joel, et cetera, et cetera, as you said, these mirrors that are not necessarily tidy mirrors, they're pools with ripples that distort, right? And then you get it here in mass with this entire group. We're on the

one hand, reasonable people hopefully can all agree that collaborating with Fedra, period, and certainly in this context where this is a group of infamous FedExe agents. Yeah, yeah. The horrors that they inflict are known by all. Bad. Bad, bad, bad. What do we know about any of those people? How many of them might be like Henry?

How many of them might have had a reason? a person that they were doing that for. And then we have to ask, and we'll talk about this scene in more detail later, but as we hear Henry himself say, I'm the bad guy, which of course is also equally complex to parse, does fighting and doing a terrible thing,

if you're doing it for a good reason to protect a person you love, absolve you? Well, in this universe, it's never that simple. And obviously this is one of the things that Mazen and Druckman are, hammering home to us, not only in the text of the show, but in their commentary around us. And we got it again this week on the on the HBO pod with Mazin saying, the theme of us versus them is always there. This notion of tribalism is always there. And you feel that here too,

because the reason it might be right to you, but does that mean it's right to someone else? And this will be a through line of this entire episode. Right. And who is who is us versus them, right? Like that's something is so interesting. I love the, I love your idea of like a pond with ripples. I was thinking of it as like almost like a fun house where like there are mirrors everywhere and some of them distort and some of them provide clarity. And like can you find your way through? Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. And it's like I think it's so interesting that this episode starts with or last week's episode ends with, you know, our heroes, Ellie and Joel sleeping, being disrupted by Henry and Sam. That's an us versus them. Right. They are the threat. They are pointing guns at our heroes. One of them is a really, really, really cute kid with a superhero mask. So like we suspect that there's something more going to happen here. But like this isn't us versus them. And Joel is certainly in us versus them mode, right? Ellie is immediately in can we expand our definition of us? Right. And Joel grudging at first as he always is. And then as Ellie describes later, like Will eventually thought like, guess there. So by the end of the episode, he's like, we are in us, all four of us, this is us, right? And I think it's so interesting, something that I think that we have to think about,

are those ideas of the rigidity of us versus them, right? Like, Kathleen has decided that these collaborators are the them and that Henry and Sam are the them, and she doesn't have to treat them as people. These are rats. These are collaborators. She's not seeing them as kids. She's seeing them as the people who took the most important person from her away from her, right? That's the them. And I think this idea of like, I don't know, the quality

of mercy or what I don't even to call it, like, this idea of like what, you know, what people are urging, like what Michael would urge certainly and what Perry is urging this idea of like, okay, I understand that they did these things, but we are all humans trying in harrowing situations. Can we see a version where we are all us in this? You know what I mean? And the answer, or something that Mazen certainly is extremely preoccupied with, something that Druckman was preoccupied in the first place when he made this game is this idea of like how hard it is to bring those walls back down

in a place where trust is so hard won and so easily lost. You know? Absolutely. This political atmosphere that we have here, something that Mason and Druckman or Mason specifically, I think was talking about a lot was this idea of after the French Revolution, you know, after the monarchy is taken down, the revolutionaries are almost as scary, maybe, if not scarier than the monarchy was in the first place.

You get a period of history known as the reign of terror with, like, if you think about Kathleen and like sort of the Robs-Pierre role there. And then, you know, there's a lot of other historical examples of this case where, like, you have a righteous cause, something, you know, you invoked Star Wars in this last week we were talking to Patrick. And I thought that was really smart. but like you have a righteous cause, an enemy you're fighting, and then how quickly can you turn in to that enemy yourself? Yeah. What would Obi-One-Kinobi say to Kathleen? Hello there.

No. He might. But I thought of this last week when they stumbled upon the, you know, when they stumbled upon the empty attic with just the drawings and stuff like that. I was thinking about sort of Holocaust imagery like Anne Frank and her family. And I think this idea of collaborators, like if you think about it, in that term of like, these are neighbors who sold you out to the Nazis. You know, again, to your point, like, collaborators, these rats, like, we're like,

it's not clear cut that Kathleen is the, the, the, the, the villain here. And this is something that the show and the game, and what I've heard is that specifically in the second, the sequel of the game, Last of Us, too, this idea of the villains, not being villains with being antagonists, meaning they are working at cross-purposes to us, but they are not just sort of like empty mustache-tweiling villains. That's something that someone told me, I think we had some listeners email this about, oh, as well, when Brian dies last week and he calls for his mom. So anything changed in the sequel of the game and Last of Us 2 is that when you kill people,

they will cry out for a person, you know, like, you know, Sheila or like, tell Laura, I love her, like, whatever it is, to give that extra. paying of these are people with loves and wants and desires in lives and goals that you are killing to make that moral conflict that much danker. What do you think about that, Mal? Yeah, I think it's an incredibly rich text. And, you know, again, we'll talk about it in a couple more particular scenes where the characters themselves grapple with this idea, which we get probably most compellingly in a conversation with Henry and Joel, but we also get in a conversation with Kathleen and Perry,

where the characters are assessing their own morality and the compromises that they make. And I think that this like, this central thesis, or at least a central thesis of the story being, and again, like, we've talked about this over the course of the last few weeks, it doesn't mean that the creators are saying or believe, that love is bad. I don't think that's the case. I think that they believe that the, and especially when you hear, when you hear Druckman and Maze and talk about this,

and particularly the way they talk about like the love that a parent feels and the desire to protect and the parent feels for a child or any kind of family unit that you build. I think they think that's the most important thing in the world, but also that they're interested in looking at what choices any person is capable of making to, ensure that that goes on. And how do you weigh your right to do that against somebody else's right to do the same thing? And I think one of the reasons that Kathleen is a really interesting character and established for us in a very short span of time is because the exact things that she accuses Henry of, which is attempting to thwart an inevitability. The, the prioritization of

one person in his life over everybody else's right to move forward is the exact thing that she ends up doing in her quest for vengeance. Yeah. For Michael. And so like you said, there's not a neat and tidy one person is the corollary to another. There are these versions of overlap and parallels across these different character sets. And it's messy. And you have to imagine that life would be if this is what it looked like. Well, and I think what's so interesting is, like, when they introduce these sort of iconic phrases in this one, the Endor and Survive, right,

is sort of a phrase that echoes, it's the title of the episode, the line from the comic, etc. But we've had a few others that we have to immediately examine. So, like, when Tess says, save who you can save. Right, exactly, yeah. Okay, so that's, Let's clear cut for Joel's like I save Ellie.

That's what I do. But at what cost at the end of the day? And then when Bill says to Frank, you were my purpose. Again, these are delivered in a way where we're like, that sounds right. That sounds inspiring and right. But I think what the show will continue to do is make us question, well, it's not as clean as that. Save who you can save.

Like, what does that mean? If that line and that idea is your life. life raft. Like, it's the one thing that can keep you afloat. Well, what's the thing about a life raft? There's only room for so many

people on it. Right. It's only just like gin and Michael and Hot Sawyer and Waltz. No room for Vincent. Okay. So,

Oh. Speaking of Waltz and adorable children, we just want to talk really quickly about this creation of Super Sam and like what Henry does in this horrible space that they find themselves in

to, you know, He saved the crayons and he understands the purpose of, like, art and beauty and story to, you know, to make, again, we've talked about this a couple times. It's like what Frank says to Bill in episode three. It's like what we talked about where Tess and Joel, we're living in the QZ where it's like, how, like, do you make your house a home? Can you make your shitty attic crawl space a home by, like, putting art on the walls? Can you make your younger brother less scared by painting a stripe of paint on his face and turning him into Super Sam? But it's so, it's almost like unbearably sweet that moment. And I mean, Kivon is just the, like, the cutest thing I've ever seen in my life, right?

But like, what is the only reflective service? I was like wondering, I was like, how is he going to show it to him? What reflective services do they have? His knife. You know what I mean? So even in this, like, very sweet. we're safe here. You know, Kathleen will reflect that later when she talked about the space that Michael made for her that felt safe.

We're safe here. But the only thing we have reflective surface we have is a knife. It's like, you know. Yeah. And again, there's that parallel there to Joel and Ellie where Joel represents survival and safety and protection and a way forward. But what is, and this is developing and becoming more complex and nuanced episode over episode. but what is the draw initially for Ellie to Joel. Violence.

The fact that he is able and capable in an instant of inflicting something like that on another person. I could not have loved this super Sam sequence in the attic more. I mean, first of all, just from an episode's structure perspective, like this leading toward them running out of food,

you know, we hear from Henry early that they have 11 days worth of canned food and beef jerky and that's that. When Nettlstein doesn't come back, they have to go find more food and they get to the point where right before they go out, Henry's scoping it out, and that's where he sees Joel and Ellie barrel into town and the timeline stitched together very neatly. We also get to see Joel from another character's perspective, which is really fascinating and interesting. Like, what does that violence look like to someone else?

But before that, up in the attic, the moment about being scared, like, Like he's scared because you're scared. And then Henry going over to Sam in that corner and making, see my face, you know, do I look scared? He's signing to him and he's comforting him. And the way in the course of that one room, Henry has to shift from telling Sam what he needs to hear to feel okay to telling him the unvarnished truth because they have no choice but to move out into the world and face. what awaits harrowing. But just the performance from Lamar Johnson here, like the look on his face, the tears and the way they fill his eyes as he is looking down at his little brother, the love, that tangible to us, love in that moment. And I think this is like an incredible thing

for a couple different reasons. I mean, we should talk in a second here about the adaptive changes to Sam. But the show's ability. to give us this pretty deep and full sense of a relationship, despite us not actually having lived through it with these characters, is remarkable. And not every episode is going to be like the Bill and Frank episode where we get to travel through time and see an entire life lived between two people. So we talked about this a little bit earlier with like the little snippets of dialogue

and what we can glean about Tess and Joel's relationship, say, just from hearing her say, I never asked you to feel the way I felt, right? Like it tells us everything we need to know. And this is that, this is that for us with Sam and Henry. Like, do we actually know where their parents are, for example? Now, we can deduce, but like, we don't know the particulars, but we understand something elemental and essential about their experience and their relationship.

And specifically, the thing that we need to understand and do so quickly is just like their bond and the, depth of their devotion. That is the singular thing that we have to understand. And it just comes across so, so powerfully here. These, you know, the major adoptive choice that is made is to make Sam, um, death or H-O-H, right? Like, and to introduce ASL into their relationship. This is not an aspect of the game. And Mason and Druckman talked at length about reasons why to do this. One reason, um, it goes back to that sort of like ripples in the pond or funhouse mirror aspect. where he really wanted to make sure that the dynamic between Henry and Sam was not one-to-one with Joel and Ellie, that there's a cocoon around them that centers on how they communicate with each other.

You know, like, Ellie is making efforts to figure out how to talk to Sam, but, like, there's something distinctive going on here. Another, like a slightly less overt adaptive change is aging them down. And I think that is so important because, again, it's not a... a, it's not a father-son relationship, it's a brothers. And, and, you know, Henry himself is quite young. And so you talk about how he has to go in that attic in the space of the sequence from, you know, lying to Sam to make him feel better, you know, and to the brutal honesty of, yeah, they probably did kill Edelstein and we have to go. But he also goes from talking to Edelstein and he's the kid to immediately turning on his. heals and he has to be the adult. And he's so young in that moment where he has to make that decision to be the adult in the room for his brother. And as you say, like, I love that we don't

have to get exposition on, like, what happened to their parents. We don't have to hear Henry tell Edelstein, well, ever since mom, you know, like, it's just, we know, something awful happened. And Henry has had to be an adult way earlier than he should have to be. But he does so with his whole heart and willingly because he loves his brother so much. Exactly. Exactly. I'm so interested in the changes that they make. I love hearing these guys talk about their adaptive process and how they navigate together when to make a change. It's just like you rarely get that level of candor and insight about the creative process. It's been kind of fascinating on a weekly basis to hear them share those nuggets. But the other thing that happens from aging Sam down is that he's not Ellie's peer like he is in the game. He's like a younger brother to her too. which then casts her into more of a protective role, which we will definitely circle back to when we get to one of the most agonizing moments

in recent television history. I'm sorry on The Magic Slate. We'll come back to that then. But Ellie is the Ellie in Ellie and Joel. But if you're just in an Ellie and Sam, then Ellie becomes the Joel. This is what you were talking about earlier, right? How everyone is everyone in these different permutations.

The other change is, of course, the leukemia and what that leads Henry to do, which we can hit when we get to his reveal to Joel. But in terms of the adaptive choice to make Sam deaf, it just took us so quickly into their world, their universe together, the way that they communicate with each other and the way that they rely on each other and the way that they rely on each other and the way that they, they navigate the world together. And it was just, it was just beautiful. It was also just really cool. I'd encourage anyone who hasn't checked out the pod or even just the inside the episode,

which is right at the end of the episode to hear how Lamar Johnson and Bella Ramsey learned ASL so quickly to be able to not only film the show and how seriously they took that, but to communicate with Kivon, it was just really lovely. Yeah, the B-roll of like the crew or whatever, you know, using ASL to communicate. Yo Kivan. C.J. Jones is the name of the person who's like the director of ASL on set. And then also Mason talked about how the Sundance series, this, it's called this close and it's like this slash close. It's a really good, lovely show.

But a show about that he enlisted Shoshana Stern, who was one of the creators and stars of that show to sort of help with making sure that this depiction of Sam felt accurate and true. Or, like, you know, if you think about the recent episode of Only Murders in the Building, that was, like, largely done through ASL and silence. I just, I love how much of this episode is, you know, in the beginning when we're so much in Henry and Sam's world, silence, captions, you know. You can't second screen that moment of the show you have to pay attention. And it draws you even closer into their world. And I think to your point that you made a little bit earlier about we see. the truck crash into the laundromat and the fight that happens there, again, from Henry's POV, once again, that's mirroring that thing that you mentioned of Ellie seeing Joel as a violent man

who can be helpful and protective, right? Right. But it's also, and then also we hear Kathleen's idea of who Joel is later when she says, the girl is with the man who killed Brian. That's who Joel is. Joel is the man who killed Brian. and Brian being the young man last week who called for his mom as he died, you know? And so it's just like, again, that fun house mirror, like, who are you on the outside?

And again, this is an adaptive, complicating wrinkle that they can make in a TV show. This is something amazing brings up again and again and again, which is like when you play the game, you are Sarah. And then you are Joel. You know what I mean? And so the chance to take the story away and give us this like, like give us a moment with Kathleen. in her childhood bedroom or give us Henry and Sam and their backstory is not only taking the camera and perspective away from Joel, but showing us Joel from the outside in.

And that's so valuable in a complicating way in this adaptation. Anything you want to say about sort of what the interaction sort of up, on the top of the skyscraper before we go underground? This is so funny. These initial exchanges when Henry's trying to work his way to a tentative initial piece. Joel is just, he's Joel, right? Yeah. And Ellie having to say that's just the way he sounds.

He has an asshole voice. Joel tell him he's okay. And then Joel spitting out, everything is great. It was just wonderful. I loved that. Kansas City is free. Haven't you heard? Everything's great.

Delightful. But this is another through line and recurring theme because Henry, of course, is setting out for a reason. He's on a mission. He has a desire and a goal, which is to enlist Joel in his exit strategy, his escape plan. But even so, doing that still requires, like, his version of Bill lowering the ladder into the pit for Frank when they put their guns down. And when they decide to sit and share a meal together, you know, every character has to at some point decide whether they're going to let somebody in. And even if it's just a means to an end, even if it is so that you yourself can move forward, it doesn't have to be altruistic. You still have to decide for a second to trust one.

And I love what you said earlier about those walls because it's not just like how long it takes and how hard it is to take them down again once you build them up. It's like only one bad actor has to break through for it to have been the wrong decision. All it takes is one mistake and that's it. It's a wrap, right? So for that to always be hanging over you, like how hard must it be to ever extend your hand in friendship to somebody else? It's amazing anyone is ever able to at all. We get the rat motif continues as, like, you know, Joel calls Henry a rat. Like, right?

I don't work with rats, right? In the perfectly preserved conference room, like nobody ransacked this building, I guess. What do you want the, do you want the phones? Do you want the desk chairs? What do you want? Why would you need it? You know, would I be able to stop working even 20 years into the apocalypse show who could say, We would just be up there together outlining a pod.

I'm just amazed that there were so many perfectly preserved chairs of cushions and tables. Anyway. I was like, sorry, I've got back-to-back meetings all day. Cannot for food. I'm just jammed. Can we push the foraging an hour? Tell me about the tunnels in 45 minutes. Put it up my Google Cal.

All right. So we get into the underground, right? And this is an area that Fedra has sworn is clear. Is there something else you want to say before we go underground? To a couple very quick things, because we do need to make it down into the tunnels. This is where we get that line from Henry that kind of cements inside the episode

that French Revolution thesis. You know what happens when you do that to people the moment they get a chance, they do it right back? Clearly not saying that what Fender did was right, he's sketching out the horrors, but then contextualizing this new regime as one that commits atrocities as well.

So there's that, you know, condemned to use the tool of my enemy idea again. Henry talking here about how telling Joel that he's never killed anyone, that holding that unloaded gun was like the first time he's ever come close to being violent, just noting that that's a pretty big change, like in the game.

And as a person who, as I've told you many times before, really struggles to clear a challenge in advance through a difficult circumstance. I was like, wow, someone else is firing a gun. This is really helpful. Henry's just like out there with you making things happen. But most importantly, in this conference room sequence, the laugh, Sam's laugh. When Henry and Joel are standing by the window looking out, plotting, right before we get the sketch of the tunnels and the freeways,

I haven't heard that in a long time. The idea of a life without laughter and joy defined only by whatever the next horror or challenge is is just so sad. But the smile on Henry's face when he hears this and believes that it's like possible for his brother to know joy again is so hopeful. And then when you go back and rewatch it, it is a fucking dagger in the heart. Well, I mean, especially since last week was this slow thought of Joel leading to a laugh that he probably hasn't had a laugh in maybe 20 years. You know what I mean? So, yeah. Okay.

Now to the other ground. Okay. Joel telling Ellie to take her gun out. Do you think she's ever looked prouder in her life? She's like, I'm fucking awesome. Joel told me to take my gun out. Look at me. Trust.

Sanctioning my actions. Amazing. Great moment. We're rats scurring through the tunnel. In terms of adaptation, this is direct, like, a very evocative location from the game. We actually got an email a couple weeks ago after the Bill and Frank episode about this particular sequence in the game where you learn about this underground sort of school colony situation via various letters that you picked up.

We talked about this in the Bill and Frank episode. how that's a common mechanism in a game like this and how beautifully it's used in The Last of Us. And so there's this character, Ish, who we see a, like, referred to in a drawing on the wall, isish and Danny, right, who are in Fedra uniforms. And so, like, the question is, like, were they Fedra officers who decided to protect, who thought, this is too far, I'm going to take these people underground? You know, I mean, that's kind of interesting. Interesting.

And an adaptive choice. But like many things, like Henry and Sam's parents or whatever, it's gone unexplored. The ish backstory and the is reveal in the game is a hugely popular, interesting, emotionally in-depth story that they were like, we're not going to Bill and Frank the story for you. But we are going to give you this very evocative location where it is spooky as hell. And it's so interesting because they refer to this sequence where they're undergrateful. where Ellie and Sam are like playing soccer, where Joel and Henry are watching on like a pair of soccer dads, you know,

with like orange slices or something like that. Who has the caprician? Like this moment of respite, this brief pause because they have to wait for night to fall underground. I was terrified the whole time because I'm like, every time they made any noise, I was like, I don't believe for a second that there are fucking clickers down there.

Fedra told you the tunnels are clean. Okay. So even though they make it through the tunnels without an attack, and even though we find out that there definitely were mushroom zombies down there in spades, but just not where these four were making their way, I'm never relaxed in that sequence because not only they're also, and we talked about this a couple times, like walking through the ruins of a previous life and how upsetting that is.

Like, you know, even when it's a moment of beauty, like walking through the hotel and seeing like nature returning and stuff like that, but then you've got a skeleton falling behind the concierge table. You know what I mean? Like it's there's, there's, you're in someone's life. It feels like a tomb. And there's something, you know, even creepier about the innocence of the childhood drawings all around. In that dank, dark space, there was no light.

So you're just envisioning these children, living this life, doing what Henry and Sam did, which is trying to decorate their space, but in this, you know, in the sewers of Kansas City. And we, of course, have the context from episode four. In addition to everything we learned from Henry

about Fedger driving the infected underground 15 years ago, etc. We have that moment with Kathleen and Perry in episode four where we see the ground rumbling, burbling, preparing to arrive. And so we can't.

And so we carry that anxiety with us through this sequence. I love your description of this kind of this dissonance that's at play in that underground in the little school community in particular where you're traveling. It's like a little, you know, it's been like four minutes since one of us has mentioned Station 11. Let's do it again. It's like a little bit museum of civilization. There's like a preserving and an ability to revisit something from the past. the joy of the kids sitting at the table playing with the toys or the euphoria of discovering another edition of their favorite comic sharing with each other which issues they each have. Like that's a portal into something beautiful.

What was at the center of that community before, what might be at the center of this new friendship. But it's like 50% Museum of Civilization, 50% graveyard. And you can't escape that feeling. You can't escape that horror. And so Joel, he's the one, as Ellie's like, we just fucking hang out for him and chill. Like, this seems pretty great. And Henry sees the wisdom just strategically.

We'll be able to move in the shadows if we wait. Joel can't ever get comfortable for a second. Even in the course of regular conversation, which was another thing I really enjoyed about this sequence before they stumble upon the drawings and the murals, when Henry's like, yeah, you know, the plan is good. And Joel shushing him and telling him it's been two seconds. And Henry says, your dad's kind of a pessimist in tandem.

Not my dad. Both Ellie and Joel replied, Ellie says, he's not my dad. And Joel says, I'm not her dad. And it was almost too quick in a great way, right? Like they're reminding themselves at this point as much as they are telling Henry. Like they're feeling this budding thing and they have to kind of keep resisting and rebelling against the pull of it. It's very Janet in the good place. Not a girl. Not a girl. Oh, man. Love Janet.

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Because that's what happens in this particular plague. It's like you don't leave bodies behind. I mean, they do when they kill all the Fedra agents upstairs. But like you, no, you like, you become the monster that kills you, right? That bites you. That's the thing about zombie. stories. Like, you become that thing. Anyway, we get this conversation, Henry talking about Michael is really interesting here. The way that he describes Michael as like Kansas City Jesus, right? Like, there was a man, a great man. You know, he's never afraid, never selfish. He was always forgiving. Have you ever met someone like that kind of man you'd follow around anywhere? I mean, I wanted to. Well, I would have. Right. It's not any, like, Henry confessing this thing

to Joel is, it's this incredible moment between. between the two of them because Henry says, I'm a bad guy because I did a bad guy thing. You get it, though. You may not be her father, but you were someone's I can tell. Huge moment. That gave me a chill.

Because a huge moment of bonding, right? The Henry and Joel mirror that we get here. But also this idea that, like, Joel has not talked to Ellie about Sarah. He's not said to Sarah's name. This is something that Ellie does not know about Joel. That Henry can tell just, you know, things you can tell just by looking.

Things you can tell just by looking. at Joel and how he behaves, that he was a dad at some point. And so here's a chance. This is a further lowering of Joel's ladder down the hole, of like, here's someone who can see me and knows the full story of me without A, me even having to say Sarah's name

or be, like, in a way that I haven't been seen since Tess died because I mean, like, I'd like to hope that Tess knows all of Joel, right? But, like, Tess died, and when the one person who knows you in the world dies, that is such a lonely thing. Even though he has Ellie there, there's so much about him that Ellie doesn't know. And Tommy is far away.

And so for this young man to be like, I see you. Yes. Is part of what leads Joel to be like, maybe this can be an us of four, you know? But like in that moment, it's interesting because that's ultimately true.

Like when he extends the invitation, when they make it, when they escape the sniper, they escape the attack, they make it to that motel. in this moment, when Henry says that to him, he's like, it's time to go. He can't bear to have that conversation with him and face that. And yet, the truth of it, that thing that Henry is able to see and identify inside of him

is specifically the reason that he is able to soften to Henry in that moment at all. Like when he says, if they're watching the kids playing, he says, if you were collaborating to take care of him, I shouldn't have said what I said. I don't know your situation. Like only seeing that bond, only seeing that Henry is acting to protect his charge allows Joel to consider that there might be not just validity in the pursuit,

but something that is like profound and central to his own worldview. What did you make of the way that like this connects to our opening conversation about the complex morality? but how Henry himself in this conversation with Joel. I love this. He assessed his own choices. That he's not justifying.

I mean, he's saying his reasons and he gives his motivations and he talks about the medication and all that sort of stuff. But the shame and guilt that he carries, again, this is a mirror for Joel of like the shame and guilt that Joel carries, right? Of like, I don't see myself as the good guy. And again, that complicates. It's really easy to see Kathleen as the bad endlessness. And there's so many ways in which she is the bad guy. But, like, it's really easy to see her as a villain because she's hunting down this vuln, these lovable, wonderful brothers. You know what I mean?

But, and we're going to get into, like, her sequence in her childhood bedroom in a second. But, like, if Henry himself sees, like, is, like, Michael was our savior. It's interesting, though, because, like, I have some questions about that. But, like, and so does Perry. But, like, you know, he's like, Michael was our savior. and I did, you know, I'm the Judas. I did this thing, you know, not for pieces of silver to save my brother. But again, that's the death survival calculus, right?

Of like, Mike, the value of Michael's life and the value of Sam's life. Before we leave the underground to go to Kathleen and her childhood bedroom, I just really want to quickly say, since you dropped a requisite station 11 reference, I also have to reference station 11 and just say, again, if you have not watched this show, though we've been hearing from a lot of people who are, and that's wonderful, this bonding over this comic, which Druckman says was inspired by Watchman, which is, you know, a wonderful inspiration to take. But Savage Starlight is the comic that Sam and Ellie are bonding over this idea of endure and survive.

And I just think it's funny because, like, you know, survival is insufficient. Is this phrase that we keep talking about from, so like, endurance survive does not feel like enough to me, right? Yeah. And that like sort of bonding over a comic book. And then Joel and Henry making fun of the comic book has to make me think of Jeven and Station 11 being like so pretentious about Station 11. I love all of this.

Yeah. So it's fun to think about survival as insufficient as a response to endurance. Yeah. That's great. All right. So let's go to Kathleen in her childhood bedroom. Again, another place that feels like the bunk beds and the like peeling. like a little soccer photo.

Rotting. Yeah. Yeah. And how she thinks of it as that safe, that box, that wooden box, that safe haven. And what I absolutely, again, to go back to the Fun House Mirror, I think, what I love about this is that Kathleen is not the Joel and she's not the Henry. She was the Sam. Someone took her Henry from her. Someone took her Joel from her.

And that complicates it so much more. She was the sweet younger sister whose Jesus-like older brother was taken from her. And that is a complicating factor that I love. And then also what Perry says about, like, Michael is not the reason that this revolutionary revolution happened. You are the reason. And something that Mazen and Druckman were interested in is this idea that like the darkness that maybe Michael, maybe a Jesus-like figure like Michael could not have. gotten it done and you need perhaps the darkness and the anger inside of Kathleen to get it done, which has to make us think about Luthin's calculus that he would do in Andor of like,

maybe you need like, what does Jesus do? He dies for our sins. Like this, you need a martyr for this revolution for this uprising to actually happen because would have Michael's kinder, gentler version of this revolution actually been effective. And maybe you need something darker led by a Kathleen spurred by vengeance. Ultimately, her revolution, spoiler alert for the end of the episode, not successful in the end, I would say for Kansas City. But, you know, in terms of inciting, I don't know, there's something really interesting and complicated going on there. What do you think? Yeah, I think it's impossible to only assess it in the moment of the overthrow because the fact that a mere less than a fortnight later, there's no.

no Kansas City anymore? I mean, that's my assumption, is that when the swarm of infected at the end of the episode make it turn and run the direction that our characters just came from, that they will overrun that city. A city full of people

who have largely not had to face infected up on the surface in a decade and a half. Like, I don't have a lot of hope that those people fared well. So it made me think a lot of Zemean, We were just chatting about Zimo over on our Marvel villains pot on the Ringaverse. Check out that house of our episode if you haven't yet. And the conversation between Tchalla and Zimo at the end of Captain America Civil War about vengeance consuming you.

Because what, okay, Kathleen overthrew Fedra. Kathleen freed the people of Kansas City. The liberators are in charge. she made the decision not to tell anybody about the threat that was the width of concrete, the width of asphalt away from upending their entire ecosystem in life, because she could only think about Henry. She could only think about this one singular thing. And so that's like horrific.

But in this conversation in the bedroom, the humanity, the way, way that she is sharing this story, and again, it ports us right back, we have one conversation, one anecdote, we understand like this entire life, basically. And the way that she says in particular, he was so beautiful as she's like leaning against the bunk beds and thinking about their childhood. Just incredibly emotionally sad, but then she, what does she say next? I'm not. I never was. and he would be horrified by the things I've done. And that was interesting to me too, because it's not just that what has happened with Henry and Michael

changed her. What she's saying here is that this is always who she was and that this has, there's some sort of like final ingredient here in the cauldron, some sort of like an alchemy taking place where there's a transformative quality to losing Michael that has allowed her to be the person that she's saying here she was always capable of being or maybe always was on some level.

So this was just, there was a little bit of like a little finger. There's no justice in the world, not unless we make it quality to this conversation between. That's so funny. I was just thinking about Renira at the end of season one of Hasl the Dragon of like, are we awakening something that was always there sort of dormant, you know? That's so interesting. And like if you think about the timing, you know, Melanie Linsky is in her 40s. So the thing that she's talking about Michael protecting her and creating a safe environment for her predates.

Right. Pre-outbreak. You know, pre-outbreak. So, like, what was their home life like? Or, like, you know, what was he protecting her from? You know, I can just easily envision again. I don't need the particular space, but I can easily envision, you know, an abusive household or like something like that, you know, where like the big brother is just protecting his sister from, you know, the realities of something. And again, they didn't need to go so hard on turning Kathleen into this very complicated figure.

But, you know, Melanie Linsky is incredible at everything she does. And this is just an incredible seed. To have Perry here as an incredible, you know, this tough, tough guy, incredible sounding board for her. You know, it really tidily subverts our expectations because you're sort of thinking that Perry's going to go in. there and say, don't do this thing. Let me try to talk you out of it and that she'll say, you're wrong. That's not what Michael would have wanted. He wouldn't have wanted me to do this. And neither of those things happen. Right. She says, if you've come to tell me that Michael wouldn't want me to hurt Henry, that he would want me to forgive. I know that too. He told me the chill

that I felt in that moment when she said he told me. And then Perry saying like you noted, we all loved him, but he didn't change anything. We're with you. I mean, this is a group that we have seen the collective mass of them, all carrying their assault rifles going into one caged room with the collaborators sitting there. The pile of burned bodies that we drove past when we came into the city in episode four, we know now how that got there. Like the way that each one of these little tidy lines and bits of dialogue and exchanges

help stitch together this whole history. And I think we're probably, you know, going to get characters who are more self-deluding. But what I love, again, about there are ways in which Kathleen is Sam, but there are ways in which she's Henry here. And where Henry and Kathleen share this, like, clear-eyed view of themselves, I know who I am. I know what I've done. But I believe I am right, you know? All right. Let's talk about a sequence I'm calling Enemy at the Gates because I literally just rewatched the movie Enemy at the Gates.

A very odd remnant from the early odd sniper movie. But we've got the sniper sequence, which is very, you know, there's a lot of very video game-y sequences in this episode. This is a very video-gamey sequence. We've got this sniper. It's an adaptive choice to make the sniper have Stormtrooper aim, an adaptive choice to make him this, like, old man at the top of the tower. And an adaptive choice, you know, something that I think it was Druckman who was talking about this, that at this point in the game, you are meant to be so riled up that you go up into that tower and you just like take all your vengeance and frustration and anger out on this man. And so for the complete opposite, for Joel, who has historically not been a guy extending a lot of like tenderness don't to people to be like, don't, please don't do this. don't make me shoot you.

I don't want you. Yeah, it was like, I mean, Peter Pascal in this episode, but specifically once he gets up in this tower, this interaction with a sniper, and then I think one of the most incredible special effects of this episode is Pedro Pascal's face. It's not a special effect. It's an actor being incredible.

I imagine what you could do when you're not wearing a helmet all the time. His fear and desperation as he's trying to, from a false, are protect not just Ellie, but Henry and Sam, who he's now decided, are his cubs as well, right? Lone Wolf and Pack for a brief moment in time. And just like the various shots of his face as he reloads and shoots and releases and shoots. And the way is like, cheek is quivering against the barrel of the gun. It's just, it's astonishing. Like, no special effect in the world, no writhing mass of mushroom zombies that we're going to get to those because they were incredible.

can top the pure emotion coming off of Peter Piscall in waves here. This was really a sensational stretch from him. And actually, there's one moment that I think is equally impactful before he goes up to the sniper down, which is when he's instructing them, this guy's not going to hit you. He's not going to hit me. And Ellie is nervous, afraid, pushing back on everything he says. And he turns her and he looks at her so intensely. he says, do you trust me? And like, that's a moment of magnitude for both of those characters because that question is everything for them in both directions. Like for Joel to allow yourself

to be the person that another person trusts again, to open up that relationship, to be that person and then what that can set you up for. But for Ellie, too, like trusting someone is not an easy thing for Ellie. And so when he asks that and when she says, yes, it's just, it's really, really, really consequential. The way that he tracked her across, I mean, into the truck, across the truck to Henry and Sam, taking down every clicker, every, every infected who is near her, the shorthand of the eyes directing each other, like they're communicating from that distance because they've come to understand each other and including not just the decisions that they're going to make, but to understand that they can rely on each other. And like the fear on his face,

particularly when contortionist kid crawled into the, flipped into the back of the truck, just like genuinely disturbing. The other thing that I wanted to mention that at the beginning, the outset of this, because before the infected swarm emerges, the hunters arrive, right? And you have, because that's ultimately

the explosion of the plow into the house, softening the final remnants of the, Kathleen, yeah. Caped concrete there. these plows, these tanks. Remember back in episode four when Ellie was like, I want to see a tank? Jill said, you will.

And that's how quickly any remaining shred of wonder or are, in a sense, that a kid in this world possesses can evaporate. From I want to see a tank to that tank, that plow chasing you down, trying to kill you and the people you're with. One episode. I,

something I want to say about, Kathleen as we go into this final action sequence here is like this idea that Kathleen is maybe like the soldier we needed, the general we needed, but it's not always and it often shouldn't be the general who's like leading after the war is over. Right. So like maybe you need a Kathleen to lead the uprising, but then you need a Michael to be like, okay, maybe we should have trials for people and not just mass execute them and burn the bodies. Maybe we should handle the bulging concrete before it. becomes, you know, a mushroom jambalaya here. Okay, so... I mean, let me just say that that sounds delicious. Mushroom jimbalaya? Yeah, it does. We're recording at the lunch hour today, and that sounds delicious.

I wrote mushroom jambalaya in the notes and I don't know why, but that's something I did. Okay, so... Is it time to talk about well kids die? Henry, they die all the time? Not quite. I want to talk about the swarm. Yes. And then we're going to get that.

Okay. So, like, the swarm. is inspired by the minds of Moria sequence and fellowship, which I love from... Dude, how fun was that to hear? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just like the... Did you, did you listening to that? Because here's what I imagine is I listen to that.

I imagine you listening to that on your couch, saying out loud, they call it a mind. Yeah, and then I went, they have a cave troll. Because, yeah, then the bloater comes out, right? Yeah. I just want to shout out. he was mentioned in the after episode sequence, but Terry Notary,

who's a legend of motion capture and body movement, just some brief, what I love about this. Okay, so trial by content, another podcast I do on the Ringar Network, we did best mocap performance, and we did like the final four. One of them was actually Ashley Johnson

from The Last of Us game was one of the people. And also Terry Notary for his work in Note. but if you don't know Terry Notary's name, you should, because it's like after, it's like Andy Circus one, Terry Notary 2 in terms of like people and their mastery of a bodywork. He has done work for Marvel. My favorite thing that he's done for Marvel is he played the cloak of levitation for Dr. Strange. Hell yeah. As you know, my favorite relic, my favorite magical relic. Terry Notary is a complete legend.

He played Gordy the ape, the chimp in Nope. Like he's just the square is an incredible film if you've not seen it. So like Terry Notary, complete legend, perfect person to get to run what was apparently called the infected boot camp where he taught all these mocap performers how to move like the infected wood. And so they like, you know, they amplified it with digital effects, you know, like a swarm of Urachai in Lord of the Rings, right? But there are a lot of people in suits and makeup, including the massive. six foot six Game of Thrones Stutman Adam Basil in the Bloader costume that give this

like if it had just been digital effects I just don't think it would have been nearly as scary as it was to see this huge guy come booming out of this hole in the ground. It's all fun in games and Hulk smashing until you rip Perry's head off. This was scary and really cool.

Also I'll just quickly note to you how hard it is for me personally and not very advanced gamer to try to kill a bloater. I'm quite bad at it. I've come to rely on my nail bombs and my Molotovs. I'm very poor with my shotgun still, so then I've learned to run and evade. I think that's what Druckman advised was the Molotov cocktail,

so you're doing it, right? In the game... My aim is horrific, though, so I'm not really doing it, right? That's the thing. In the game, the bloaters are covered head-to-toe and fungal plate armor. Yes.

This is stage four. You've got your runners, your stalkers, your clickers, your bloaters. And they also spew spew spore. at their enemies, killing them with a breathable infection. So that's why you want to keep your distance. Not just for head tearing reasons, but also for spore reasons. So, yeah.

We've already mentioned the little gymnast shroom. Just horrifying. Horrifying. I mean, amazing, but legitimately disturbing. And speaking of dead kids, then we get Kathleen's iconic line of, well, kids, well, kids die, Henry. They die all the time. The way that Linsky says that. So she's right and completely monstrous at the same time.

And I think this idea, what she introduces here is this concept of fate, which I think is really interesting. It's not something we've talked about yet in this game in this show, but maybe like this idea that like Bill was fated to find Frank. You know what I mean? Or Joel was fated to find Ellie. Like this idea of fate, what do we think about it? How are we going to be thinking about it going forward? But her idea of like, Sam has faded to die either by leukemia or something else. That sounds horrifying.

We hate that. We love this kid. We want to protect him. But he dies by the end of the episode. And all of this, all of this was done for Henry to protect Sam, which we want him to do. And then they don't make it out of the episode alive. So what was all of this for? Mallory, what do you think?

Okay. I have a lot of different, I have a lot of different thoughts. The, on the fate front, because it's an interesting prompt. On the inside the episode, Mazin called this out specifically,

and I think the idea that he's referencing here is about the inevitability of death in this world, that you can't beat the infection, that you're just going to get bitten and you will die when you will turn when you do. You will lose who you are. Though let's put a pin in that and go back to that

when we get to Sam in a minute. And he said on Inside the app, Neil's story made it very clear that you cannot escape fate in this regard. And that in fact, the more ruin and hurt you cause to protect this person, the more brutal it will be when you lose anyway.

Now, that is devastating. Absolutely devastating. But here's the flip side, which is the conversation that Ellie and Joel had in the car in the truck last episode. When Ellie said, if you don't think there's hope for the world, why bother going on? I mean, you got to try, right? Now, one of my questions coming out of the episode, and I think one of the really heart-wrenching things, that I'm jumping a little bit between this horrific moment with Kathleen and Henry and the ultimate conclusion of this episode. this episode, but like that Ellie quote was really on my mind when she's trying to save Sam

because it's like this belief, this ember of hope that something better is possible. We heard it from her in episode four. We see it from her there with Sam when she's trying to heal him with her blood saying my blood is medicine. Is that gone for her now after what happens with Sam and Henry? Like is that extinguished after this? or can she hold on to that? This just isn't how science works, Ellie.

You can't just smear your blood on an open. Sure, yes. But that belief that you can challenge the inevitable, like that you can try to forge a better path. The Kathleen moment, while kids die, Henry, they die all the time. You think the whole world revolves around him that he's worth everything. That's, again, that tribalism idea. What do you do for love that we've returned to?

I think there's also just this, like, in the game, there's this moment where we hear from Henry that the hunters don't travel with kids, like survival of the fittest. So there's this other kind of element to this of like children and people you need to protect from the perspective of a character like Kathleen or a group like the hunters being a weakness,

which is a very upsetting thing, right? Because we as viewers are of course inclined to think that your desire to protect and preserve and build. This is like our subcreators, gardener's, healer's idea from Rings of Power is like a good and sacred thing and a motive and a purpose worth seeking to maintain.

And so in addition to like the horror of what Kathleen is saying there, you then spin forward to Perry's last words to her. What does he tell her to do? Run. But she can't. Because all she can, all that's left for her is that vengeance.

All that's left for her is Henry. And it's the thing that kills her. She could have just run away. She could have tried to escape. Now, would they have found her in 20 minutes anyway? Maybe. But the fact that she had to go make that final stand, that the only thing that her life is about is ensuring her version of fate that death is the end. And she even says, right?

Like, it ends. It's the way it ends. And it's like, does it have to, you know? So I think that there's like this really interesting. meaty tension there, which characters are capable of maybe embracing the idea that there's something else to try to push forward through. There are two key amazing quotes here that I think we're just going to be thinking about for the rest of this entire television series, which is the idea of my brother is more important

than your brother. These are decisions that love makes not rationality, right? That's that danger of love question, right? Or why does my kid's life matter more than yours? Right? Again, these are the calculations in the, you know, the math here, right? And there are elements here, like Sam being so much younger than Michael, Sam being, you know, so much more vulnerable between the leukemia and his deafness,

like all of that for us makes the choice, I think, a little clear. But from where Kathleen's sitting, she's like, yeah, why is your brother more important than my brother? I thought my – everyone thought my brother was Jesus. That makes my brother very important. But again, that's where like her thinking that her brother now and this quest to pursue justice because of the wrongs that were done to him. Like is that that's then the only thing in the world? Is that quest for justice for her brother? I love too because those amazing quotes are great.

I love the way that he talked about like the poetic justice of a child killing her after her speech about. Right. Oh, my God. Oh, boy. And like in case you think that like, you know, Melanie Lewinsky's really good Twitter thread sort of in defense of her casting or the interesting part about Kathleen as a character, in the inside of the episode,

she's like, I don't endorse what Kathleen's doing, right? She's a moral criminal. She says, you have to have empathy, right? And what Kathleen lacks here at the end of like, she's a very like sensitive seeming person, but she doesn't have the empathy that you need.

And so then we need to be thinking about empathy. going forward. What does, you know, what place does empathy have in this us versus them environment and in this, in this place where, as you say, you lower one brick of your wall and a mushroom jambalai could swarm all over it. You know, you never know. Okay. It ends how it ends. I'm not ready, Joe. This is like unbearable. Honestly, unbearable. I mean, I can't think, this is straight from the game, but I can't think of anything like more vulnerable at the end of someone's life than having a conversation about what you fear the most. and this idea that, you know, Sam asked this question, if you turn into a monster, is it still you inside? Like, I want to cry right now. Absolutely. You've got it in me. But we got this interesting email from our listener, Robin,

because, like, there is this conversation in the podcast, the official podcast, about the fact that Sam still can't hear Ellie, despite the fact that he's turned. Does that mean he's still Sam inside? Because we saw, okay, this is email from Rob. And says, I'm curious what you think would have happened if Sam had eventually become a clicker, right? As you point out, there's different stages. Since they rely on sound and not vision in order to find their prey, I do remember the wheelchair bound next door neighbor, grandmother running and jumping when she was infected. I wonder if the same would have happened for Sam or any other death or heart of fearing folks. So this question of like, how much your humanity do you retain? Perhaps Sam retains that aspect of himself for now. But how long? You know, know, we saw the death of tests even before the building exploded, you know, her loss of will in real time, you know, how quickly does that happen and how horrible that there is still

some of Sam in there even as he attacks Ellie. Right. Right. There's like this beautiful, hopeful aspect to it that there might be some piece of you left there to try to preserve or save, but then when you think of how hopeless it is and how there is no saving, or at least that's what the audience

and characters have been trained to believe at this point, it is devastating. I thought, you know, we often mention these pearls of insight that Mason and Druckman have imparted, but here I want to shout out Troy Baker, who's the host of the pod.

Doing a great job. He's just, yeah, he's just fabulous. on the pod and obviously has a deep and rich connection to the story, voiced Joel in the games. And he was, his voice was thick with emotion when he was talking about this part of it and about this, this aspect of Sam still being there in the moment.

He said, you know, what that says is it was still him inside. And that is what a powerful thesis. And Mason said, yes, that early it is, it is still him.

This was like, everything about this was heart-wrenching. The before Sam turns, before Henry even shuts the door and we get the moment where Sam asks Ellie that question and they have that exchange about fear and fearing being alone. And we have this conversation between Henry and Joel about like it being easier. Easier when you're a kid. You don't have anybody else for lying on you. That's the hard part.

Joel says. And Henry says, well, I guess we're doing a good job. So this is like so gut-wrenching and basically every way possible. Maybe, maybe the most vulnerable Joel moment yet. You know, not just what you fear to lose, but the fear of letting somebody down who you're supposed to care for. Henry thinking right before they're about to lose everything that they've won. Yeah. Ellie. not actually feeling that way. Like feeling this protective instinct over Sam, building to that, I'm sorry, on the magic slate. And the way that when Joel, because this is where Joel then does extend that invitation and invites Henry and Sam to join in Wyoming. You know, I don't know exactly I'm getting to Wyoming.

I'm probably walking. But, you know, if you want, the look of gratitude on Henry's face, this idea of this mutual embrace that both of them could expand. their circles. Like, it has to go in both directions. I'll tell him in the morning, Henry says, of Sam, new day, new start. Like, this is fucking devastating. And that is where that, like, it's difficult as a viewer, I think, to fight the nihilism. It's difficult to hold on to that little number of hope even though we want to. We want to believe because there is such an unrelenting grief and despair in the story. It's really, really, really deeply, deeply sad. This is a, I think this is a moment that a lot of game players are really interested to see how it would turn out in the show, right?

Like, this is, this is like a red wedding moment, right? Of like this little kid turns and then, you know, and then Henry kills himself, like, right? Like, it's just agonizing. But I think that, again, you already mentioned this. idea of like putting Ellie in the Joel position, putting Ellie in the position of like, I'll stay up and watch over. And then she falls asleep. This is a Joel move, right? Promises. The promise. The promise.

I'll stay up and then the sleep overcoming you because you are merely, you're just human. This is a trope that I generally hate in zombie stories, which is the hidden bite. The person who doesn't tell someone else that they've been bitten. But Sam is such a young little kid and is so scared that I'm like, This time it's okay, right? Us watching Ellie just sort of smear her blood on him and being like screaming, that's not how this works. Please tell a grown-up what's happening. And then just, again, like, Kivon is so good.

And Lamar is so good. The moment where Henry first shoots the ground to, like, keep Joel away from Sam, then just almost automatically by instinct. shoots Sam the most, like his purpose. You were my purpose, right? That was never stated by this character, but that is true. Sam is his purpose. Shoots him.

And then in this moment, you know, and Joel knows, Joel having lost Sarah, knows what's going on with Henry here, immediately trying to talk him down like he did with the sniper in the tower, right? And Henry just being like, what, I mean, again, what is there to live for? What have I done? What have I lost? How on earth do you possibly come back? from a loss like this and just being done with this world.

Unbelievably sad. When Ellie scrawled to Sam, I'm scared of ending up alone. Yeah. And then you see what follows. You think, like, well, how could anybody not be if this is like their life, if this is their world, if this is what it means to get attached to somebody and then to lose them time and time again? And, like, of course, we have the part of our brains like, Ellie's immune.

But then we have Tess's voice from episode two. You're not immune for being ripped apart. Henry doesn't know that she's immune. And like you said, that instinct, I mean, all the performance is all around in that scene. The love and the tenderness that Joel cannot keep at bay anymore in his voice when he says, Ellie, are you okay after Henry shoots Sam? not just because of the actual physical thing that just happened, but because of the recognition of that scar

that will be there forever because of this. Like I was thinking also, you mentioned that you were my purpose, Bill Frank moment, but I was also thinking of their conversation about friends. We don't have friends, Frank. We will never have friends because there are no friends to be had. And like, the truth is actually harder and more painful than that. which is there are friends to be had, and we just saw that,

and then you're going to lose them anyway. We've already lost so much. We've already lost Tess and Bill and Frank. And you remind us to be very, Kathleen, Perry, Henry and Sam. And we're five episodes in to this series. And the magnificent writing that has made us care about each. We're not anured to this loss. You know what I mean?

There are some shows you watch where, like, people die all the time. So you're just like, well, I'm just not going to get. attached to anyone then, I guess. But like the incredible emotion, the depth of emotion and empathetic storytelling that Mason and Druckman are up to here means that we don't have that option to not get attached to these characters. It's a great point. It's not only are we like cavalier about it. The volume of dread and despair that we feel when Henry is saying, what did I do? What did I do? Can barely, barely choke out Sam's name one last time as he like watches his blood pull across the floor.

It is just so horrific and so deeply sad. And this is a character we've been with for one episode, but it feels like we've been with him. I mean, he's in the final shot of the prior episode. One episode for all intents and purposes. And we feel like we've been with him for we're grieving a loss of someone. We feel like we've spent a life with. Incredible performances.

Incredible writing. Something that Mazen points out is that when we get the, these grave sites, this idea that Joel is too pragmatic a survivor to stop and spend the time to bury people ordinarily, but he's doing this for Ellie. He's burying these bodies for Ellie because Ellie needs to grieve these two people. The point we've made a couple of times this episode, this idea that Ellie has now experienced something that Joel has experienced, which is letting down someone. And maybe, I mean, she's hinted at other things before, so maybe we'll find out that she already experienced something like that.

letting down someone so much younger and more vulnerable than she is, is a different kind of experience. As you say, does this make her question her, like, magic blood? Again, I would like to talk to her about some science, but that's okay. And then I just, I have questions about, like, how much of a C change is this in Ellie? The I'm sorry on the, on the notepad is, like, you know, heartbreaking, but, like, something we've been talking about for four plus. episodes is Ellie's fascination with violence, this sort of almost like thirst she has for violence. Like, has this moment slaked her thirst for that? She's firing the gun gleefully, sort of almost in this episode.

But has this loss killed that in her the way that, you mentioned with the tanks earlier? Or is that something yet to come? I don't know. But I'm curious to see the ways in which this has to have fundamentally changed her in one way or another. and I'm curious to see that plays out in the next episode. It's a great point. And you do feel the change happening very organically. Like the progression is kind of simultaneously steady and really rapid all at once for both Ellie and Joel.

And like what impact will this time with Henry and Sam and that bond and then that loss have on both of them? Like the I'm sorry and everything that means for Ellie and her feeling of having let Sam down. but then the look on Joel's face when he sees that both because he knows how she is feeling he knows this is the defining truth in his life

like what it feels like to believe you didn't protect and save the person that you wanted to right? Yeah. But also you just see it in every every single glint of his eye and line on his face like the way that he looks at her she's walking away, this person is everything to him.

Like the thing that he didn't want, right, to ever be in that position again after Sarah, even after Tess, of feeling like you didn't do enough to save someone, like the bond. And it happens so quickly. Exactly.

It's happening in real time. He's not even able to like consciously process it. He can just feel it. We could see it on his face when he was up in the snipers now. We could see it on his face here. It's like, this is that person for me again. Yeah, and because of all of Mazen and Druckman's warnings, it feels dangerous.

You know what I mean? This should be something where we're like, isn't this beautiful? Like, they're forming this bond. But I'm, like, scared because I don't know what's going to happen, but, like, Mazen and Druckman have made me scared. Especially in the context of this episode. It's like you badly want the characters you care about to have somebody to love and to love them, too. and to have a family in a community that they are willing to and eager to like fight for and build to preserve and protect.

But then that question of like, well, what do you, at what cost? Like, what do you do when you have somebody you're willing to do anything for? That's what this entire episode was about. This is a tremendous episode of television. I'm really great. Delighted to talk to you, my favorite person about this episode of television. I can't believe we only have four episodes left. I'm so sad.

I think we're going to be thinking a lot about Ellie's stated fear here. This is a story. A really key storytelling element to hold on to. Ellie's fear is being alone. Let's just think about that as we go forward. Anything else you want to say about this? Look, you ate, you potted. We didn't kill each other.

other. Let's call this a win-win and move on. I hope we get to see Lamar and Kiananen, like, a ton of things to come. Both incredibly talented. And I'm really glad we got to know them here. We will be back, of course, next week with more The Last of Us. As I mentioned, Pokerface in this feed with Rob Mahoney. And then Mal and I will be here to talk to you about some Mando prep. some quantumania over on the Ringervor's feed.

There's a lot going on over there. So more Pedro Pascal is coming, and we've got everything you need to prepare yourself for that. This episode was produced by the great Carlos Turbo. And remember, the fungus loves to. Bye. Crack a Cayman Jack Margarita with real lime, blue agave nectar,

and real margarita taste. Taste your skin. Game. Cayman Jack, America's number one margarita. Kamen Jack is a premium mall beverage with flavors. Please drink responsibly. Kamenjack beverage company, Chicago, Illinois. You go to Hawaii in your head all the time,

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