The Prestige TV Podcast - 'The Last of Us’ Episode 6 Deep Dive

Episode Date: February 21, 2023

Joanna and Mallory dive deep into Episode 6 of ‘The Last of Us,’ breaking down each character and story moment as Joel and Ellie continue their search for Tommy and the Fireflies.   Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Associate Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up everybody? It's Austin Rivers from the Minnesota Timberwolves. It's a new year and I have a new podcast here at the ringer Offguard hosted by me and my guy Pasha Higigi. Austin and I go way back and talk so much hoop already that we figure it was time to fire up the mics and let you in on all of these conversations. Every week, Pasha and I will hit on the biggest stories happening in the league and get Austin's perspective of someone currently hooping in the NBA. Tap into Offguard every Friday on the Ringer NBA show feed on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. There's a whole lot you're not telling me. Good. Herein lies the point. Be careful who you put your faith in. The only people who can betray us are the ones we trust.

You understand? Mm-hmm. Now come on. Grab your super fucking eggplant coat. Where are we going? The movies. After the Prestige TV podcast feed, I'm Joyner Robinson, joining me today in a brand new, snuggly winter coat.

It's Mallory Rubin. Hi, Mallory. Joe? Yeah. Ready to talk first downs. Ready to talk fourth downs. Ready to talk turnovers. Ready to talk mascots. It's a big day for us here on the Ringer NFL show. And for us, poor humble sheep farmers, it's also a good day to be watching The Last of Us.

We are here to talk about The Last of Us at the Last of Us. episode six, kin. Before we get into all that, of course, a few programming announcements, et cetera, et cetera. We are recording this a little early on the early side for some scheduling reasons. So usually we have checked in with the official podcast. We have watched the inside the episode videos. We have checked out a lot of your emails, et cetera. That is not on the table in the cards for us this week, but we have, we still have a lot

to say, surprise, surprise. Twitter and Mallory have a lot to say about this episode of television. It's just going to sound a little different than it usually does. But for next week's episode, we'll be back on track so you can email us, Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com if you'd like to weigh in on this mushroom zombie show that has nothing to do with hobbits and dragons. Elsewhere in the feed, Van and Charles will have their instant reactions this episode. You will have already heard their instant reaction to this episode.

They'll be back next week, et cetera, et cetera. Rob Mahoney and I are covering poker face And I just need to tell you That this week's poker face Is one of the wildest episodes of television I think I've ever seen. Rob and I both lost our minds. If you are used to

Listening to Joanna and Mallory cover genre television genre film, This is a good one for you. So poker face. Catch up. Or you don't even have to catch up. You can dip in. Dip in. Over the Ring ofverse feed.

Yeah. You have already heard us, if I've got my timing, correct. We're like time traveling here. You already have heard us, break down Ant-Manuantuanamania. Great stuff. You will soon hear us. Well, great stuff. Our breakdown.

Great stuff. You will soon hear us do a really chunky, lengthy, Mandalorian Season 3 prep episode, which we have. already recorded as well. It's a lot going on. Mandel. Mando. So, and then, and then the Ringerverse is just sort of in it to win it for Mando going forward. So, hell yeah.

Mallory, how, I mean, poker face, last of us, Mando, Quantamania, Dadcore. Yeah. Double daddy time with Pedro Fascal. And like add in Paul Rudd daddy and you just got a, what, a hat trick of daddies, I think. Anyway, Mallory, the triple crown of daddies. I don't know. Is this, are you using? using a lot of sports terminology because you're prepared to talk about football just like Ellie and Joel did. I'm really ready. I am confident to say I know more than Ellie does about football.

Malory Rubin, how can folks keep up with all this content? Thanks for asking. My first recommendation would be to follow the pod. Follow the pod on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Follow the prestige TV pod. Follow the Ring Reverse. Follow trial by content. Follow all of it.

You can also check out our various social media feeds. We're everywhere. See when a new episode goes up. See what new meme Jomi has put out into the world. Share in our community. Yeah, watch Mallory get ready to go to see Quantummania in slideshow format. What a joy. And then you can send us your emails at Hobbit of Dragons at gmail.com.

And as Joe already noted, the email address does not include the word cordyceps or mushrooms or infected. But it doesn't matter because all of your emails about. the last of us are welcome and cherished. Please send them. We are still getting daily mushroom recipe updates from listeners, which is great stuff. I'm scrambling to keep on top of the mushroom recommendations. I think I'm having mushrooms every day. Wow. I know. I'm trying. But your weekly mushroom recipe update is not coming from me this week. We've got a guest in Mushroom tip corner. It is Valerie Rubin. I know. Valerie. What do you? What, want to say about mushrooms this week? I think that mushroom tip corner belongs in House of

Our and Prestige after dark, but I will still reply to the prompt. Okay. I had a delicious mushroom dish this week, the mushroom crispy rice at Major Domo here in Los Angeles. Can I recommend it highly enough. It was fantastic. So sumptuous and scur-a-meh and divine, but I wanted to share this with you not only because it was delicious, but because when it was put down on the table, I, like a totally normal and not at all weird person, said to our server, just wondering,

have people been afraid to order this dish during the run of the extremely popular television sensation, HBO's The Last of Us? And I don't think the question went over well. Seems like the dish was still thriving. Oh. And was one of the real successful crowd pleasers as is the whole menu.

So no impact on the mushroom crispy rice during the last of us. I can only imagine that means that our movement, hashtag make mushrooms your bitch, 2023 is spreading and thriving. So thank you, Los Angeles. Keep ordering that mushroom crispy rice. It was so good. We have to get it when you're next year. We absolutely will.

We also got a couple emails because we don't have any emails pertaining to this week's episode. I just wanted to read a couple emails that we got after we recorded last week's episode. They still sent her on episode five, but I think a lot of episode five of the episode themes are extremely relevant for this episode. And what's interesting in doing the cinematic playthrough of the episodes that I'm doing, this chunk is called quote unquote brothers, and it refers to Henry and Sam and to Tommy and Joel. So I think, you know, we'll be thinking about those two pairs of brothers as we go forward. So we got an email from listener at Nerf, who wrote in and said, one detail that I loved

in episode five was something that you guys mentioned about Sam and Henry and the deepening connection we got to experience with Sam being deaf. This threat of communication being linked to the connection between two characters is mirrored with Joel and Ellie. When they were escaping the horde of infected at the end of the episode, Joel and Ellie are wordlessly communicating plans with each other and executing those plans. lands well. He sees her looking at Sam and Henry. She looks up at him in the window and then she makes a run for the brothers while he clears the path for her. This is such a good visual example

of the trust that they are building with each other. This is Joanna cutting in to say. I think there's also a moment in this episode, a silent communication between Maria and Tommy that I really liked. And I like that sort of ongoing, that wordless connection, sort of the way that all the mushrooms are connected in a creepy underground network. Now, what do you think about that? A email from our listener. Yeah, I love it. I mean, we, you know, we chatted in last episode about how that really stood out the eye movement

between Joel and Ellie and the way that they were able to communicate and really deeply understand the intention of the other person. And I think that that's like more broadly, one of the things that's been really like rich and enjoyable about the show so far is like how nothing is really simple or straightforward. So you take that idea of the bubble that people build with each other. And as we've talked about a lot, there can be. be detrimental aspects to us that us versus them who don't we let into our tribe, but also the more endearing and beautiful part of that is look at this thing that only we inhabit

together and that we've built with each other and that our understanding has like spawned and spread like a cortex mesh inside of our own tendrils that connect to each other and allow us to communicate with each other across time and space. I love the bubble nature in this episode and episode six that we get the kin concept. When we have, we're going to go beep by beep. But when we have Joel and Ellie at the dam and we get like a little Will Livingston joke. Yeah. They've got inside jokes.

Yeah. It's a well-worn joke at this point for them, right? Or when we get them inside of the Jackson settlement and they just like don't. belong. Like the bubble that they've created on the road just like does not fit into this community. And I just think that that's, that's really interesting. All right. We got an email from Patrick who said one, one thing my wife and I noticed about Sam in episode five after turning is how he's positioned to look out the window when Ellie wakes up. We think that was a conscious decision Sam made as he was turning, likely understanding he was becoming a monster to not face Ellie or the door. Since he's deaf, this would mean that he won't know. anyone is there to attack a last-ditch effort to protect his family and new friends. And email from Patrick.

So this is Joanna. So my, you know, part of the positioning is so that we as an audience don't know whether or not Sam has turned. But, I mean, I like this ongoing discussion of, like, how much of you is still remaining. Again, the best case we have to think about is the final moments of tests with the lighter. You know what I mean? Like, how much of tests is still there? Yeah. When you're still in control of your mind.

Absolutely. Yeah. I like that. I miss Tess. Can we bring, can we bring an ad door back? It's been too long since we got an anodore flash. We had some test talk in episode six, but over, over on, um, on poker face, uh, Rob Mahoney and I were doing a Benjamin Brat checking because Benjamin Brad is sort of like, has the

potential to guest star in every episode. We haven't seen him for like four episodes. And I'm just saying, like it's been way too long. since we've seen Anatoorv or Benjamin Brat, I would like both of them to appear on their shows post-haste. Thank you so much. All right. This email comes from Caroline,

who writes the idea of what is the point of forgiveness in the Last of Us world stood out to me. If Kathleen had forgiven Henry, the collaborators, or Fedra, could she have succeeded with the revolution? Would forgiving Henry have stopped the hoard from overrunning them at the end? Doubtful, even as she redirected resources

from hunting Henry to fortifications. That pavement was about to give in episode four and wasn't going to get better. So is forgiveness necessary? Would it save anyone? And then we see Ellie apologize to Sam with a notepad on the grave, but she'll never receive forgiveness. Where will Ellie's want slash need for some form of forgiveness of catharsis take her? I see her as driven by fear and loss rather than seeking redemption, but this thought is now stuck in my head and we still don't know her history.

We're going to come back to that last line. We still don't know her history as we discuss this episode. But Mallory, what do you think about this idea of forgiveness? We were talking earlier about this idea of sorry. I'm sorry. Joel says to Elliot, I don't want your sorries. You know, like, what do you think about all that? Yeah, I don't want your sorry's moment at the beginning of episode three on the heels of Tess's death at the end of episode two is the first thing that came to mind hearing that because I think in the moment and still now, and particularly in an episode,

like six where there's a pretty embittered and cruel conversation between multiple sets of characters who care about each other. Tommy and Joel have their version of that. Joel and Ellie have their version of that. And being able, Tommy being able to walk in the room and tell Joel, he's sorry. Joel being there at the stables the next morning, even if he can't actually quite say the words. I'm sorry. Like, it's important to admit when you've done something wrong and try to do a little better the next day. I think that the Last of Us universe is a really grim and bleak and unrelenting place. And holding on to that little ember of hope and possibility that Ellie talks about in episode four or holding on to the prospect of forgiveness. Some of it is like the quest the characters lead themselves on, right?

Like Tess imploring Joel to believe that he can do something to try. Joel invoking something similar for Tommy. He are really calling upon Tommy's desire to do that already. I don't know that it has to always be about the personal quest for redemption as a necessary and like holy thing. But a world where nobody seeks forgiveness is not a world that I think we want to see. And the, I'm sorry, I think that's as much Ellie doing that. It's about Sam and she's telling that to Sam, but that's also her as a person who has an open heart and is like looking to build connections. And I don't think we want the characters to close that off.

What do you think? I think it goes back and we're going to talk about this a little bit later on as well, but this idea of like to Sam's question, are you still you if you become a monster? like how much of you is left? What is the last of us, right, in these circumstances? And so for Kathleen, for example, that forgiveness is more about her access to her own humanity as it is Henry and Sam's survival, right? How much of your own humanity are you able to hold on to in an extreme circumstance? You know, forget about being bit by a cortisab.

You know, like just in these extreme. dream survival of situations, can you extend forgiveness? Again, that idea of like, you know, if you think about like 12 stepping and making amends, that idea of making amends is as much for you, probably even more so for you than it is for the person you're trying to make amends to. And so, again, it's about your own humanity. So would Kathleen forgiving Henry have stopped the concrete from caving in. No. But again, it would have let her

maybe not be mauled to death by the contortioned child clicker because she wouldn't have been so held bent on pursuing her vengeance at all costs. She could have moved forward to another tomorrow. Right. But then it's also that idea of like survival versus living. Like could she have survived?

That's a question. But like, would she have been living? You know, would she have been living in a more human space than the cold? you know, a severe place that she locked herself into at the end of her life. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound terseptide may be able to help. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity or some adults with overweight who also have weight-related medical

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reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia if you're nursing pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepound with a sulfonelioria or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, diarrhea, and vomiting which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call one. Call one. 1-800-545-5979 or visit zepbounds.lily.com. All right, spoiler warning, I guess. We have not watched past episode six.

We only have access to episode six. Kin, directed by Jasmila Zbonik. I think it's how you pronounce this wonderfully talented Bosnian director's name. She directed Quo Vada Saida, which is a great 2020 Oscar-nominated film from Bosnia that I really recommend people check out. This episode was written by Craig Mason. I never heard of him.

Again, on the cinematic playthru front, I watched all of brothers and then a little bit when they get to like sort of the university, etc. Of one section called the most dangerous game, that of course is a reference to the very famous short story wherein man is the most dangerous game. That's, of course, a topic we've been talking about a lot. So, all right. So we start. There has been a time jump. Yeah. But we get a little flash of Henry's death again before that.

Just so open on the most miserable note possible before the three-month time jump. What was your response to the time jump? Were you sad that we weren't with Joel and Ellie every step along the way there? Did it feel completely appropriate and structurally? strong. I was surprised. But it's my, you know, this happens a couple times in the game. But I was, first I was surprised and then I was curious to see how much our dynamic has shifted in three months.

And I'm actually a little surprised. You know, we talked about this last week in terms of comparing this show to the time jumps in House of the Dragon. And like, do we feel like we miss something? I don't feel like I missed a lot, but I also feel like I don't know that their dynamic has shifted as much. as I would have expected it to shift after three months of trudging across these here United States from Kansas City to Wyoming. What do you think? Yeah, I, you know, I think in a way, the fact that we open with them in a place where their rapport with each other feels pretty similar to where we last left them, even though all that time has passed, then heightens the

amount of progress they make inside of this one episode because of the really, like, seismic nature of the conversations and the things that happen. Ellie learning about Sarah, Joel finally opening up and sharing his insecurities with Tommy, etc. I had, you know, I had two responses. This is often the case.

Like I just am so attached to them right now and I'm so invested in the show that, of course, there was a part of me that wished we had been with them every single step of the way. I just want to know what happened. I want to know what they talked about. I want to know where they found their new clothing.

I want to know if they met new people along the way. Did they talk about Henry and Sam? Was the moment where Ellie told Joel by the fire that she had tried to use her blood on Sam the first time that they had spoken about them? We don't know. But also, it felt appropriate because what happened with Sam and Henry was so earth shattering for both of them individually and for their shared journey that there's a before Sam and Henry and after Sam and Henry. and the next real chapter is the other, the next time they interact with people and let people into their lives again. And everything in between is just space and distance.

So they put their progress on ice. Like the snow is here. They've been in like stasis, like shock basically. Yeah. Because there's like little travel montage early. I'm like, oh, I want even more of this. But then you get a lot more of that later. And it's really amplified and rewarding because of what has happened in between.

between. So, you know, as you know, I'm already in like, oh my God, I can't believe we only have three episodes left. Are they really only going to do one more season of this? Can I face a life without Joel and Ellie moving forward? Will I still be me inside when I turn into a monster after I don't have the last of us in my life anymore? So I crave more. I long for more. But I think that in general, the show is structured really soundly. And yeah, the House of the Dragon Time Chime Jump Comp is is always very, very top of mind in terms of whether we feel like we've really lost something crucial or whether it feels like we have the understanding of the key advancements between the people of play. I love that the fungus of this game has sunk its tendrils into you and it's like, God, it's like,

it really has. Puppetting your body. The first, you know, before we get to Tommy and Maria and then the rest of the very cozy gang in Jackson, Wyoming, we encounter this couple in the middle of Nowersville, which they've been there long before. They were mushroom people. This is where they live. Played by two absolute fucking legends as far as I'm concerned. Graham Green, who is like a constantly working legend.

And then Elaine Miles, who I know from her great work on Northern Exposure, where she played this exact same character, essentially. And like, she's so funny on that show. and she's really funny here. And so we get a nice little, like, humorous respite, a little just like pit stop of a bickering couple. How did you feel about these two in the middle of nowhere? I loved it. I need a Marlon and Florence spin-off

so that I can spend a lot of time in the scenes from this apocalyptic marriage, especially because you're approaching this cabin, you realize as soon as you see the back that this is not Joel we're with different people and when you realize Joel is there holding them at gunpoint you have this fear,

this trepidation, all of the things that we've heard about Joel and the choices he's made in the past. I've been on both sides of it. It was a long time ago, but we do what we needed to survive or test saying Joel and I aren't good people.

You're like, is he going to hurt? Is he going to hurt them? And then you immediately go in to this comic routine. Why didn't you shoot him? the guns all the way over there. You made him soup? Yeah, I did.

It's cold out. And it was just delightful. And those injections of levity, but also humanity and like a lived in existence where you're with these characters for five minutes, but you understand what every day is like for them. And that, that I think is really like the true master stroke of the show episode after episode. I think it comes up every pod we do where we get these little lines or little glimpses or little vignettes and we can fill in everything about a life. It's just not, not an easy thing to do. Who's this little psycho about Ellie? It was also iconic. Perfect. Also.

And you know she was like, yeah. Yeah. That was, that was great. That was great. So, and a function that they serve is to inject us with dread, right? As anywhere people you to be you can't go there no more. Ellie and Joel are headed towards a place of, you know, they're closing in on something that we've been thinking about as like either a place of safety or a place where Tommy really is in desperate need of a rescue, right? Like this has been in Joel's mind is like, I got to go rescue my little brother. He's not on the radio anymore.

Yeah. He's not on the radio anymore. He's in danger. I got to go play, you know, this is the meat of the episode. I got to go rescue Tom. Tommy's in jail again. I got to go bail him out. Tommy's in danger.

I, Joel, the big brother, have to go rescue him. Joel's in for a rude awakening on that front. But like, but what we get from this couple is that confirmation that Joel has in his mind of like, this is extremely dangerous. If your brother is out there, he's already dead or, you know, and so Joel's like, great, here I come. I'm coming to save the day. Maybe I can still save Tommy.

You know, when Florida's like scared him, you know, like, it's, like, it's. Love that line. Yeah. You're not going to scare us. Scared him. Scared him. So I think that, I think it's both like a fun little respite from, palate cleanser from the horror of the end of last week's episode. And really an important mood setter for, you know, for us, for our dread, we encounter Maria and her cohorts on the horses with the dog.

Like, we're terrified because of this is, this is the mood setting that we've gotten. And this is the reputation that Maria and the whole have tried to project out into the world. It's working. Those dead bodies that they're leaving as deterrence, they are working. But we like Joel are inclined to believe it when we hear it here because of that conversation with the radio guy about how dangerous the road to Wyoming was, how Joel couldn't be serious about his intention to head out. There are raiders, there are slavers. But you're sure Tommy's okay.

So we have all of that too. that immediately calls back up when we hear this. And this scene was also great because of the connected back to the email that you read about this shorthand and this communication. I loved the map moment. The test that Joel is running about confirming the location, did you tell him the truth? Are you telling me the truth? And like you don't know what look, what word, what kind of, what gesture might be some sort

of code or secret language that only two people share. So that was really, really good too. And that idea, and that just establishing fear is the central throughline of this episode with that scared him moment because Joel's fear. And when he can face it and when he can put voice to it, that's what, that's what gives this entire episode. It's, it's shape. And I think that so what happens immediately after they leave the cabin after Ellie steals a rabbit is that Joel has a panic attack. And this is an adaptive choice. Joel does not stop and have panic attacks in the game.

That's not what the last of this game is about. And it's harrowing because, you know, again, Joel's sense of self is so wrapped up in this protector role. Like, of course, this is like what Bill's letters in conversation with with Joel, like, we're the protectors, right? So it is very important. It has always been very important. This is something at Mazen and Druckman I've talked about for Joel to see himself as a protector. Of course, he failed with Sarah, but even before Sarah was killed, he's Sarah's dad, he's Tommy's big brother, you know, he's Tess's partner, like he's, you know, he's Tess's like enforcer, right?

Like, he's the, he's the muscle, he's the protector. And so this loss of control that comes with a panic attack, and we see a couple different panic attacks in this episode, I think that's such a keen, adapted choice to make Virgil, that that specific reaction. There's also just like throughout the episode, he's, you know, the hand that he like fractured in or broke when he beat that Fedra guy killed him in the first episode, he's, you know, he's been nursing his hand throughout,

but it's like three months time gap and it's still pain, like it's almost incapacitated at that hand at that point. So like, I don't know, the physical failure, which she will remark upon as the episode goes on. What do you think of the panic attack? Yeah. So Joel is a character, you know, the first thing in episode one in the 2003 timeline that we hear him say about like the nature of connection and relationships is melding dependence and love into one thing. Oh, he loves you.

He's dependent on me. Not the same thing. I think it's the same thing. It's definitely the same thing. And that's the conversation with Joel, Sarah, and Tommy. And so anything that threatens Joel's version of himself, the person people depend on, sends him into a state of crisis. And the way that, I mean, I'm so I'm really eager to talk about the Tommy conversation later because that was such a crucial breakthrough for Joel to be able to share those doubts and those worries with another person. But the pain in his chest, the blood rushing in his ear, like the idea that he actually, that what's that happening on the heels of?

Maybe I won't be able to reach Tommy. Maybe I came all this way and I still won't be able to get there. Maybe I won't be able to get Ellie through this next phase, through this abyss to safety. Maybe I'm about to fail again despite making it this far. And Ellie voicing here in kind of a comedic, lighthearted way. okay but you know because he's like I'm okay I'm okay are you because just to remind her that if you're dead I'm fucked it plays for a laugh here it's charming but we where does it take us into the end of the episode her crying over his blood drained body reaching out for him like grogo touching

did Jarrett's jawline begging him not to leave her alone and he doesn't want to show vulnerability or what he fears his weakness. So the hand is tied up in that too. Is the pain real? Absolutely. Did it probably not heal right? Definitely. Is he harping on that more than he would have a few years ago

because he thinks it's a sign of how he is degrading and diminishing and less than what he used to be without question? It's like one more thing that's reminding him that he's not enough, that he's not what he used to be. It's interesting because to go back to that, I'm so glad you raised that dependent, Sarah, Tommy, Joel, dependent conversation with the first episode. I think it's so key because as you go through this episode, Joel is reckoning with this idea that Tommy is not dependent on him anymore, right? But like what we're talking about here is really not just like a dependency, but like a codependency, right?

Because in a codependent relationship, like Tommy was at a point in his life dependent on Joel to bail him out of jail again or whatever, you know, get him breakfast, whatever it is, right? Joel is dependent on Tommy to make him feel useful to make him feel like he is value. That's the nature of a codependent relationship. So when he rolls up to Jackson, obviously we're jumping ahead a little bit, but when he rolls up and Tommy is no longer dependent on him in any way whatsoever that he is not the rescuer, Joel is just like completely at sea. Who am I if I am not? Yeah. Who am I? All right.

We got this great email from Live that I really like because it touched on another property. you and I like to talk about. Liv wrote, as soon as you were speaking in the episode five, deep dive about how Ellie was drawn to Joel because he was tough and could kill, I couldn't help compare her to the way Lyra is drawn to York Burnison and his Dark Materials, as well as drawn to Will, only after the eletheometer tells her that Will is a murderer. I'm constantly thinking of Lyra, Bellacqua, the protagonist of His Dark Materials, when I'm thinking about Ellie, these young, fierce women who are forced out of Star-Worthy,

circumstances to act much older than their age, who are, who are proud and independent, all this sort of stuff, but who have experienced loss, experience abandonment, all this sort of stuff, and have to pick and choose who they rely upon as they go through. And I love this idea of, like, thinking about Joel as York Bairnison, like, really, really does it for me. What do you think, Val? I love this. And I love it for for a few different reasons. Like you're really,

you're right. Of course, the Ellie Lyra comp and this idea too of like other people telling you you're special and you trying to figure out what that means. And the idea of like if you are a person like that, there's a version of that story where you're a piece of garbage. You think you're hot shit.

You're not interested in other people. But Ellie and Lyra both, they're desired to have other people around them who can support and help them and they can forge relationships and bonds with actually grows the more awareness they have there. And like when we, I mean, when you think of Eric, like, what do you think of the armor? I mean, there's a lot of stuff about him, this whole community, his leadership, his heart, the bond that they forge. But this unreachable armor that only he can craft. That's like a very Joel-like comp. And,

will the wielder of the subtle knife. And the subtle knife can cut through anything, including other universes. Like, there's only one person who can wield the subtle knife at a time. And so I really love that. And that feels that's spot on. That's great. Now I want to go do a whole reread again. We should say for folks who aren't familiar with his dark materials, maybe you're more of a mushroom zombie person than you're a high fantasy person.

York Bearerson is literally a bear So that's just like a fun A bear who could talk But he's a bear So you know Just as you're thinking about these comparisons All right So we get Julianelli at the Canfire

Love this I love a campfire scene There's something that In oh god I forget which Star Trek it is Star Trek 4 One of the Star Trek films There's a scene where Our characters are reading like

Beans around a Campfire And Kevin Vigee has said that when thinking about Marvel films, he always wants that like eating beans around the campfire scene of like just pause everything and stop and sit with your characters as they do this human moment. And I think about like, you know, Cap and Natasha sharing a sandwich and something like that. And so whenever you have like a campfire scene or just like a pause and eat something, We've had a lot of pause and eat something moments in this in this show so far. It's just a moment for us to sink into these characters in a moment of respite from action.

And there's actually not a ton of like, there's action at the end, but there's not like in this section of the game, you never go too long in the game without like stopping to kill a bunch of people. You know this as you're playing the game. Like there's constantly infected or constantly like other humans who are threats. Until the end of this episode, that's not really like what we're dealing with here. And I think that that's, you know, that's not in this Jackson section of the game. There are a lot of incursions and a lot of moments where Joel is to shoot a bunch of people. But this episode is marked by him his inaction for much of the episode.

So instead we get this campfire moment where he's taping up his boots. That'll come back to play later, right? He gets new boots. He gives her liquor, which she hates. And something that I want to think about as we go forward is like, as we try to figure out where Joel's comfort. level is in this relationship. There's obviously, like, the father-daughter, Joel, Sarah, Joel, Ellie, comp, you know, and his comfort and discomfort in being a father figure.

But also, like, there are ways in which they're partners. You know, she's, like, so foul-mouthed and, like, you know, like, she'll make lewd sex jokes at him, something like a daughter wouldn't necessarily do and, like, all this sort of stuff like that. And she's, like, you know, she wants to drink with him. Like, all this stuff that is not. daughter, daddy daughter stuff. And maybe that's just what a father-daughter relationship looks like on the road. Who knows?

But I think there's just something else more complicated in the mix here. What do you think about the skimp fire scene? Yeah, I really enjoyed this. Another historic materials comp with the northern lights, lovely. And just the visuals of this stretch, you know, you think about a world without light pollution and environmental pollution and being able to like see the cosmos and the, the parts of the apocalypse that are beautiful. There's that really great wide profile shot early in this scene when Ellie is still up on

the boulder. And she's gazing up at the stars. Like she's gazing up at her unattainable dream, as we'll learn, right? And then Joel is gazing up at her, which is his unattainable dream or a dream that feels unattainable or forbidden to him, you know, letting that person into your heart again. And I just loved that, that framing. And I was thinking in the liquor moment, too, the same thing about that. Is this a dad-daughter vibe?

Is this a friendship vibe? Like, the only answer I could come to is it's the only thing either of them has. And so it's not easily defined because it's like, it's like nothing and thus is kind of everything. And I like thinking about moments like that where Joel is reminded of how young Ellie is. Because when she first asks for the booze, he says, no. He does eventually give it her. his initial, like, instinctive responses, I am not going to give this literal child my flash full of hard liquor.

But usually the moments that force him to contend with the fact that she's 14 are awful moments, like her having to shoot Brian, which he will talk about later here, that she had to do something that grave when she was that young. This is like a really normal thing. I want some booze. Oh my God, this burns my throat. I'm not ready for this. shit. I think this is a cool thing that I want to do, but I actually don't. And so there was

something that like harkened back to the before times in this moment that I, I really enjoyed. And of course it builds up to the Oh, it's we exchange, which was wonderful and becomes another through line of this episode with when it is we, when it is us and when it is. Fireflies. Yeah. Fine you. I also love that aspect of it. Okay. So we get like, we find out about Joel's first dream, which is Sheep Rancher. We'll get a better dream for him later. And then Allie wanting to live on the moon. I love that. I love that your observation about the framing, that makes like, she's looking at the moon and he's looking at her.

That makes her the moon. You know, it's just like, oh. But the, what Joel says here about like he never really had the option to go anywhere he wanted or to do anything he wanted. This reminds us of the earlier exchange when they're talking about the gasoline. And she's like, where'd you go? You could just drive anywhere. where'd you go? And he was like nowhere really, you know what I mean?

And it's sort of like, so there's a couple things. Like, how can your life be better in a mushroom apocalypse, right? First of all, as you said, like how the ways in which things are actually a little bit more beautiful without light pollution or something like that. And then also, was that true? Did Joel never really have the option to go anywhere? Or does he like to believe that like everyone was way too dependent on him? Do you mean? I couldn't, I didn't have the option to go anywhere.

maybe for like personal, socioeconomic, whatever circumstances, but also I, my daughter relying on, you know, I couldn't leave my little brother. He was relying on me. We don't know the story about what happened with him and Sarah's mom, et cetera. And so this idea that like, I had to be in one place because everyone was dependent on it. That's like part of his own self-myth. It might also just be literally true, but it all, it's tied. It's wrapped up in that, you know? Yeah. And I found, I found that part. like pretty relatable, even though like, you know, Joel's circumstances in life and history are his own and the context varies person to person. But I think that like, that idea that

you tell yourself that you had no choice but to do a thing and you couldn't let yourself have fun or be happy or just like do the things that brought you joy feels like a very true human experience across different contexts to me. And that like it's only when something dire happens that really forces a shift perspective that you, have to contend with whether or not that was true and whether you use your time wisely. And like, I think that's one of the reasons that we're really drawn to these dystopian tales because something shifts so supremely that you actually have to look at the choices that you've made in a definitionally in a different way because the choices that you make now are to stay alive.

Like, literally, you have to do X or you will be dead. And like, I just, I think these little moments in the show were strong, just like the very question that Ellie asked, you know, because she's making conversation. She's having fun. It's a sweet little prompt, but the fact that her framing in the prompt was, you know, when Joel says, oh, it's we, it's like, it's rude,

but it's like ripping. There's this like humorous little back and forth, you know, anything bad in there, just you, a vibe that they have. But for her, she's not making some grand speech. Hey, can we stick together? Can we spend the rest of our lives together? Like, are you going to be my dude?

She's just like, what what what what do we do it's a we for her it's a we for her you know and we can see that there and that's that's lovely dream of sheep branches on the moon a blended dream a blended goal i love this on the front of joel sort of questioning his own role as protector uh he says he'll take both watches and he falls asleep again this is something we've seen a couple different times from Joel. I was going to ask you quickly before the falling asleep what you, what you thought of the conversation about when she told him about the blood and about Sam and Joel, who we know, it's established that he is not a character who believes that there's hope, right? In episode two,

he's like, what's this? We've heard this a million times. Vaccine, miracle cures, none of it works, ever. And then Tess has to beg him, right? Can you do that? Like, to think for once, we could actually win and then an episode four the conversation with Ellie about hope. And so him saying to her, if she says, meaning Marlene, they can do it, they can do it really struck me both him choosing to give her that hope,

even if maybe it's not his inclination to carry it for himself, but also that maybe it spoke to an evolution inside of him that he now actually does believe that something's possible that he didn't before. And then we see that later when he's talking to Tommy And he's like, she's immune. Like, this is it. We have to get her there.

I've seen it, right? Time and again. Yeah. In this moment, it felt more like that was for her than his own shift. But you're right that, you know, when he's talking to Tommy, he seems like he's bought in. I do like that he doesn't make her. She's the one who says, I know it was stupid to smear my blood on someone's open wound and think that that's how science works. And Joel, who.

we know is not a scientist doesn't know how, you know, dams make electricity. Me neither, Joel. It's okay. You know, but he could take that moment to be like, that was really fucking stupid, but he doesn't. So that's nice. Yeah, then he falls asleep. Yes. And what happens when he wakes up, Ellie is protecting him. And this is not the first time that we've seen her rattle off all the lessons that he, you know, we saw her do it when they were in Kansas City of like, oh, we have to find, you know, the tallest building scope out, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, you know, she's listening.

She's absorbing. She's learning. And even though, like, we've seen, you know, we saw him teach her how to use a handgun, but he's refusing to teach her out of hunt until later in the episode, you know, he does. But there's still, like, things that he doesn't want to teach her. I don't know if it's, like, consciously to keep her dependent on him or consciously to keep her in a child space. Like, he wouldn't teach Sarah this.

like he's not going to teach Ellie this, but he needs to remember that Ellie is not Sarah and Ella did not grow up the way that Sarah grew up, etc. But I also think on Ellie's front, her eagerness to show him that she has learned all this, that she can help, that she can be a partner, that she can take a watch, that she can be helpful. To me strikes up, you know, smacks of, don't leave me behind, I'm useful to you. I'm not a drag on you. I can help you. we can help each other like I'm useful you can depend on me don't leave me that's that seems to be a motivator even more so than like then like I I want to prove I'm a grown up I want to prove I'm useful in this partnership yeah and also I think there's an element of like you're not the only one who gets

to do things or make a claim to things you're not the only one who gets to make a claim to protector just like later she'll say you're not the only one who gets to make a claim to grief you know like other people get to do things too and I mean, this moment, like you think about later in the episode as well, when when Joel tells Tommy that he fails even when he's asleep because he's like, we see the little, the mumbling. We know that he's streaming. We can call back to that later. It's just, there's a lot at play here, including thinking about the lesson of the high ground, even though Outbreak Day was in 2003 and Revenge of the SIP didn't come out until 2005. Wow.

Just without Obi-1's expertise. Is the high ground lesson still? Still made it through. Tommy was in the army, so we can only assume that he knows some things about that. All right, we already mentioned the damn interactions, the various rivers candidates for River of Death, etc. But then we get the masked strangers. Joel, I, again, I'm very tender toward Joel in this episode because he's showing us a lot

about how worried he is about his own limitations. I have a lot of empathy and love for him. I would love Joel to get better at reading maps. It's a recurring problem now. A recurring problem. In the Kansas City sequence, it's like, where's the on ramp? Well, let's like take some time to look at the map first. Which river?

Mallory. He never left Houston, Texas. He never left Houston, Texas. And probably Tess was the map reader in their partnership, don't you think? So she was the brain. He was the brawn. 20 years in the apocalypse. Let's work on our map reading.

That's all. I love one of years. leaves a settlement. And Tommy's like, go southeast until you hit like I-25 or whatever. And I was just sort of like, that's not enough direction for me. Go vaguely southeast until I hit the interstate. Okay. I would get extremely lost.

All right. So the mask strangers rolled up as a hardcore true blood fan. I was able to identify Rita Wesley even under the mask. as Maria, excited to see her here. But Joel has another panic attack, essentially, as the dog is sniffing Ellie. And again, we hear the, like, something that is, you know, when you hear people who love playing video games,

talk about video games, they talk about when they talk about video games as an art, especially a game like The Last of Us, where you can, you have choices that you're constantly having to make. There are multiple ways to go through a game. There are scenes of dialogue that you might not ever see if you don't make certain choices in the game. know what I mean. And so, um,

you are not just empathizing. You are inside the head of it's not a first person shoot. I accidentally called a first person shooter a couple weeks ago. I apologize to the entire video game community. It's not a first person shooter, but you are inside this character of Joel in a way that not even necessarily film or television can fully bring you inside because you were actively making choices for this character.

Um, however, when the score, when the soundtrack, cuts out and we hear the ringing of Joel's ears. That's the show's best attempt to put us inside the head of a character mid-pid panic attack. Anything else do you want to say about the dog? I was terrified. Very scary and then very sweet. It seemed like the dog and Ellie really hit it off.

I would have liked the dog to make another appearance in the episode. What did you make of the look of the Jackson settlement as they get to as they get to these gates and go inside? It is so clean and whole and maintained and preserved. You know, you compare it to all of the decrepit structures that we've made our way through in the show, but also of QZ. And the thing that you end up comparing it to most is Bill and Franks, right? This like paying attention to things.

It's how we show love idea. And seeing that, here at scale, shared not just by one family, by two people, but by 300 we learn, this vast community that has invested in life, in living, in trying to build something together that is not just endurance survive, but survival is insufficient. What if we could really restore civilization again? So, you know, you, you, you know, think about the differences between the game and the show there, which was also the case for Bill, for Bills, right? We talked about this on our episode three pod where that's much more like

I'm making my way through this, uh, absolutely cataclysmic warehouse zone with a stained mattress in the corner. And that's how I, that's how I get by and there's a bloater in the school gym versus this like bucolic pastoral, hey, what if we, what if we built something beautiful? And to keep doing that in the show, I think is important and feels like obviously, I mean, part of it is probably like, let's make things look different. Let's introduce some visual variants. But I think there's a real intentionality of reminding us as viewers, if people make the choice to try to build something together again, they can. And this is what it looks like. And I think especially coming off the back of Kansas City, which was only like 10 days into their post-federal life, but like not just the decimation of the city, but like the civil war raging in that city. And then you get to again, I love that you use the word bucolic, this bucolic 300-person commune. I love Tommy's reaction to like, it's not communism. Maria's like literally incredible scene. They live on a commune.

Yeah. So in terms of adopted choices, in this section of the game, there is the Jackson settled, like the town settlement. We don't go into that at all in the section of the game. We're sort of in the outer reaches. Tommy says they've only been there a week. we watch them turn the electricity on with the dams. So they're in sort of like the dam building.

It's all like broken down and drippy and shitty. Men are sleeping on like weird shitty bunk beds. Like it's none of this like main town USA. We've decorated for the holidays vibe that you get here. And I think the distinction is so important because those themes of the game are there in the game in terms of like Tommy's married to Maria. Joel is slightly on the out of that of that us that they've created. But it's not nearly so stark as I've come to rescue my brother from the herring wilds of Wyoming only to find that he is living inside of like, Dolly Parton, Smoky Mountain Top Christmas. You know what I mean?

It's so nice. Yeah, it looks great. I would happily live there now. Now. Why don't leave Jackson Hole in the TV universe of The Last of Us? because Maria says that they got there seven years ago. I'm like, was this, nobody was using this space for 13 years? Weird.

Well, I think they built, I mean, they built some of it out. They extended it. Yeah, they talked about extending the walls. But like the original kind of ski community, everyone just left. The game community. The home that Ellie and Joel end up staying in. Why didn't that family just stay there? Maybe they all turned into infected because they had taken into that morning.

I guess that's probably the answer. The mushroom zombies ate the rich first. And then, um, came for the rest of us. But yeah, I love the adaptive choice to make it just so nice. So Joel is just smacked in the face with how much Tommy does not need him at all. Before we get to that harsh realization for Joel, their reunion is absolutely beautiful. And Pedro Pescal, who is giving us all the notes on the piano throughout this whole season.

He's amazing this episode. This, this, this, seeing his brother, I came here to save you and they both laugh at how silly that is. And just like, it's like a desperate joy when he sees his brother, the goal. And again, the goalposts keep moving on Joel, right? First and foremost, when it comes to Ellie, I just need to get Ellie across the Boston QZ. I just need to get Ellie to Bill and Franks. I just need to get Ellie to Tommy's, like all this sort of stuff. this was his, I need to get to Tommy.

Yep. And to be pulled up short by like, oh, nobody here needs me. They're not unfriendly to me, but nobody here needs me. The mix of the, because you're right, the joy is so palpable. It's like emanating off of both of them as they cry, as they embrace, as they laugh. And that's beautiful. And it is mixed in with that harsh realization. dawning in real time, the irony of that I came here to save you.

But this is the last time for a while that the joy is mixed in with that. And then it's a stretch of just the harshness of that new reality that Tommy did not need saving. And not only did he not need saving. He didn't boot up the radio to tell Joel he was okay. He didn't ask Joel to come join him. He didn't make Joel a part of this new life that he had found and that he had built. this is also an interesting moment for Ellie because even though it's quick,

we get to see her face as she watches this embrace. And there's a little bit of a like, who is the stranger look? Because she's just never seen Joel behave this way. A lot of these sequences take place literally near or in front of a welcome stranger or hey there, stranger signage, which is very fascinating set design.

Howdy. Stranger. Yeah. As people, right, howdy strangers? People are grappling with this new view of somebody they thought they knew. And there's also, I thought, a little bit of that worry. If we think back to the exchange in episode four, you keep going for family. That's about it. I'm not family, know your cargo. Well, this is family for Joel. And so there's fear for Ellie there, too. Wait, he's with family. Like you said, that was his mission and the thing that kept him going. What does that mean for me? And so this mix of happiness and sorrow and trepidation was like really present here in a way that I enjoyed. As much as they enjoy the pumpkin pie and lovely,

lovely meal that they're about to tuck into. Tuck in is not the verb I would use. Inhale, like scarf down. The bubbles, the ever-shifting bubbles of who is us and who is them and who is family. Because Joel's mood doesn't really fully sour until he says he's using his Texas manners. Calling Maria ma'am, being very nice. And then he says, like, maybe we just have a moment just family. And Tommy's like, nope, this is my family, right?

This is us. I'm an us with this person. And you are not at the center of this us. And so just as Ellie was like, oh, no, Tommy and Joel are in us. And I'm not at the center of Joel and Ellie anymore. Joel is like, oh, no, it's not Tommy and Joel anymore. It's Tommy and Maria. Where does that put me?

And so both Joel and Ali having this parallel outsider feeling discomfort in the inside the extreme comfort of this town is so fascinating. And I think something that I love about this episode because I was thinking about it, like Ritina Wesley is such a great actress. She does a great job as Maria. I really love her stuff with Ellie, which we're going to talk about in a minute. But, you know, a difference between this pairing and. And Bill and Frank to an extreme example, Sam and Henry to a less extreme example. But still, it's like we don't see. There's a version of this episode where we get the Tommy and Maria story, find out how it was that they met and how they came together and how she taught him to think a different way about what survival meant and all this sort of stuff.

We don't get that. And I think it's very purposeful, not just for the momentum of the story, but also like because Joel is so on the outside of their story. You know what I mean? And they're just a cemented unit starting, like, starting their new family and, like, you know, such a cemented unit that they, that like, in contrast to Joel and Ellie where Ellie finds out in this episode about Sarah, Maria and Tommy's, like, shared traumas are, like, together on the chalkboard on the mantle. They have shared this together.

And they're not hiding it from. each other not hiding it from anyone. And I just think that's centered in their home. Yeah. Yeah. It's the thing their lives orbit around is that memory and having opened up in that way to each other. And the way that Maria clearly doesn't trust Joel is also very, very centered and

on display right away here. You know, Tommy saying like a bad reputation doesn't mean you're bad about the town. And, you know, Ellie, like barking at other teens looking at her from behind a beam. And Maria saying not always at least. And so Joel can feel that she doesn't trust him, that he's not welcome. But also almost seems to be like using that as an excuse to sink into some of the bad feelings and the fear that was bubbling up inside of him right away. The awkwardness of his response to learning that Tommy and Maria, I mean, we'll get to the pregnancy later. pregnancy, yeah.

But just to his inability to say, until Ellie prompts it to say congratulations, to express anything even resembling happiness for the most important person in his life, he seems actually actively furious that Tommy has moved on and built something, which Tommy will hurl at him in a way that is, like, deeply hurtful, but I think also true. It stems from truth. Tommy has been able to move on and build something and Joel has not. We got this great. I'm so glad I was able to find it because I'm better at keeping track of emails than I am at tweets. But this listener, Kyle, tweeted at me a couple days ago. In response to our coverage of episode five, he says, I was amazed at how the loss of quote unquote, us for Henry meant he couldn't live with just being, quote, unquote, me. The loss of community and family can take all. meeting from life and this show is amazing at highlighting it. And so, like, what Henry went through in the end of last week's episode of going from protective big brother to, you know, yes, he's reeling from the trauma of having shot his younger brother in the head, but also then like the complete loss of his entire identity because all Henry has been doing is protecting Sam.

That's been his entire life. And now that is gone. Who am I? I don't even want to find out. I'm done. And Joel is plummeting through a very, you know, he's got Ellie here. with him, but he's plumbing through an almost identical experience. Who am I if I'm not Tommy's protective older brother? I've been that my entire life. There's like a little bit for us as viewers.

We're like a little, we're like, Joel, be behave, you know? Come on. Yeah, exactly. There's that part of us fully that's like Joel did everything he could to get to Tommy. I would be hurt too. I would be hurt too. I would be hurt too if I made my way across the country to reunite with and even if I thought I was a savior to reunite with this person I loved and realize that they had this entire thing. that I was not a part of and that they didn't, they didn't want me to be a part of it. That would be devastating.

Devastating. And if your entire identity is built up and thinking that you need that, then it's shattering. At least they had pumpkin pie, though. The pie did look good, I will say.

The pie is good, and then they move on to the whiskey course in the bar, right? So they go to this bar. Again, this is an, again, let's just think about this. The tour through the community. I love that they didn't need a jail,

like noting that the jail was in the bank, but they don't need it. Multi-faith. you know, church services, et cetera, et cetera, democratically elected council, all that sort of stuff. Communism?

Seems like an idyllic community. Then again, I've watched way too many documentaries. But like that's the thing is like, whenever we meet a, you know, a little civilization, a little outpost

in one of these stories. And The Walking Dead, it's always like there's some sort of rot at the center of it. What's the catch? There doesn't, seem to be a catchier, at least not that we find out in this episode. You know what I mean? Like we're, you know, Jackson seems to be working. Great. But yeah, so Joel and Tommy are in the

bar again, these conversations take place in like weird, drippy, shitty, like cold, unfriendly locations in the game. So to set it in this like, you know, just two brothers having a drink at a bar and the way that Joel sort of slides his hand on the bar top of like it's been so long, the simple pleasures, sitting at a, you know, a well-luck on his face when he tastes good whiskey for the first time and God knows how long. Yeah. And that's the thing is like what Tommy says there, right? Is he's like, we're raising pigs. Like once we have bacon, what else do you need? Right. True. And Joel's like, well, what about me? Me. Yeah. You're probably. What about me? I wanted to, I wanted to hear what about me and I get a

little Jacob Ben. What about you? What about you? Oh. Kind of moment. But like that, that is directly on the heels of the tour through the town and Ellie the joy at the stables and this like you could do worse so trust me we have been defensiveness from Joel in response to that we've been doing fine. Like there's a little bit of a

don't betray our bond but also I have to like puff out my chest and front that I've been able to build a life without this person too. And then you just feel right away how that crumbles. That melts like the ice cube inside of the whiskey. You can't bake that for long. Right, right.

He's like, well, we may not have had Christmas decorations of movie nights, but it's been totally fine on the road. And Ellie's like, I mean, we had a lot of jerky. It was fine. Do you remember this? I had duct tape for my boots. Don't you remember the swig of probably terrible hooch I gave you last night? Come on.

Anyway. Right. We have Will Livingston. What more could you ask for? Then we get, again, this is an adaptive choice. In the game, Joel just sits down and tells Tommy everything. But here we get these lies upon lies, right? He asks about tests. Joel lies says she's fine. He lies about Ellie being the daughter of a high-ranking Firefly, all this sort of stuff. Again, does this feel like, does this feel like he can't bring, can't trust Tommy? He doesn't want Tommy to tell Maria. Like, how do you feel about what happens here? I think that because pretty soon after this, he does ultimately tell him the truth, it struck me as he's really off-kilter. Like, he's thrown. He doesn't know how to re-contextualize his own life in the way that he thinks about himself and his relationship.

And so does he not trust Tommy? I don't think that that can ultimately be our takeaway when he ends up saying, I trust you more than I trust myself in a subsequent scene. but he's so thrown off by not meeting the version of Tommy that he's expected, the version of Tommy who's relied on him, that laying out this massive failure right here would almost, I think, feel like defeat, like conceding defeat to him in a way that he's like not prepared to do yet. Yeah, yeah. Still front.

And Joel being on the other end here of the, oh, it's we, right? Because when he's saying, just assuming that, Tommy will go with him. It'll be easy for us, us. For Tommy, that's not the us anymore. And Joel has to really start confronting that in this conversation and beyond. Like the way he's like, is she the one who kept made you keep the radio off? He was like driving. And again, that comes from a real sincere hole. But also there's a wedge he's driving. Like there's a there's a once kind of a lack of maturity here that is like a little disappointing. And also I think this just feels so human and relatable. And I'm like, who wouldn't behave this way? I definitely would. People do this in like

families outside of a mushroom apocalypse all the time where they're like, oh, is this? Your friend, friends do this. You know, oh, is your girlfriend preventing you from spending time with me? Like, oh, it's such a shit. And like also this idea that we will talk about more in a couple of minutes of how the only people who can really hurt you are the ones who you let in. And there's some of that here too, I think with Joel, like this real, the force of his insecurity is amplified by feeling like he's not a part of that us for Tom. And what's so key about... But it makes me love him more in a way.

Absolutely. Like, you... I watched this episode before you, and you asked me, you're like, this is a good episode? And I said there's a lot of Joel meat here, right? Like, and we won't... It's not ring or worse after dark, so we don't need to talk about how you were applied to that.

But, like, right? There's, like, there's so much... There's so much meat on the phone around Joel in this episode. Oh, God. All right. And what's so key about the role that Tommy plays in Joel's life is he is literally the last person on Earth who knows what Joel was like before in the before times. Yes. Tess might know some things about Joel, but she didn't know him before.

Tommy's the only person who knew him then. And so to armor himself in lies and distance, again, is a very, like, human-relatedable moment because Tommy sees right through him. And Tommy starts to talk, frankly, to Joel about, like, the people that they killed. And again, the way in which Maria, very clearly Maria has talked to him about different choices they could have made. And I really love that Tommy is talking to him without judgment, with love, without judgment. But, you know, when he says there were other ways we just weren't any. good at them. Unbelievable line.

He just has a different kind of clarity right now. I love it. And in the game, it's more caustic where Tommy says, Joel says, you survived because of me and Tommy says wasn't worth it. You know what I mean? Like, I like that Tommy is coming from a much softer place, even though he says something really shitty right after it. Like, he's coming from a much softer place here of like, again, that just shows what

a good, healthy psychological place, Tommy. is in a good emotional maturity. He's moved from Endurance Survive into Survival as insufficient and Joel has not yet. But he'll start to. We got this great email from Nick. This sort of, I touched upon this a little bit when we were talking about Kathleen earlier, but Nick

writes, if you turn into a monster, is it still you inside? I think that idea applies so directly to characters in this episode, Henry, Kathleen, Joel, and plenty of others, all of which have different answers to the question. Henry believes he's been irreparably damaged by the choices he's made and is now the monster. Joel is in a similar space but is trying to follow the advice of Tess, who believed it was

their responsibility to make an effort towards redemption. And still other characters like Kathleen believe they do not need to be redeemed because she thinks she was justified in her actions. I think that's so interesting to think about this email from Nick in the context of Tommy versus Joel. And where Tommy is about the things that they did versus where Joel is about the things that they did and what that means about their, how much humanity is left inside of them after all of that. All right. Do you want to talk

about the really shitty thing that Tommy then says to Joel here? This was painful to watch in like, in the way that

great TV can be deeply painful to watch when you care about the people you're watching. When Tommy tells Joel that Maria's pregnant,

that he's going to be a dad, we go through some real mutual wounding here. There are just the cruelty in all directions because Joel doesn't congratulate his brother who is of course rightly I think deeply wounded by that

he doesn't show any joy it's one more thing now that Tommy has that he doesn't but even more than that it is specifically the thing that he lost and that that loss became the defining aspect of who he is so this is just absolutely heartbreaking and Tommy

is reading that response the same way that we as viewers are and says out loud a verbal grenade, the nail bombs you build in the game, just because life stops for you doesn't mean it has to stop for me. This has to be the most hurtful thing that Tommy could say to Joel.

And again, he's not wrong. And Joel grappling with that is an important part of Joel's growth. But that doesn't mean that it isn't deeply, deeply cruel to say that. to him. Also, the fact that, like, in this moment, Tommy, who's, like, very happy, secure in where he is, happy and confident in the life that he is built for himself here, shows his belly a little to his brother and says, like, who knows what kind of dad I'll be, right? You know what

I mean? And Joel says, yeah, well, we'll let's, we'll see. Oh. Man. Man. We've talked a lot about, like, the Frozen Watch, right? Joel's life literally stopping frozen in time the moment that Sarah died. And again, Tommy is not wrong. to observe that and to try to push him to get started again. But it's just, this is vicious. Vicious. The only people who can betray us are the ones we trust. All right.

So let's talk about what's going on without Ellie is grudgingly sent off. She does not want to go with Maria here. But like Maria is like doing well by Ellie here, right? She gets a shower, new clothes, a diva cup. Yeah, first tampons, now a diva cup. Divacup is advanced, you know, period care in the apocalypse. I don't know how I would feel about a diva cup on the road. I don't know that that's like what I would do on the road.

But I love that Bella Ramsey's delivery of, oh, gross. The way she's just like snapping it back and forth, it's really funny. The sort of like pinkish... Purpleish white striped jacket she gets is an item of clothing that Ellie has in the game. So, you know, again, we keep seeing these little, like, clothing references to the game. But she hops on over to Ellie, to Maria and Tommy's house. We've already talked about the hearth reveal. Again, Ellie is just like, I like, I like, I look, I like how spiky and mean Ellie is.

I like that about her. And I like that Maria is sort of unflapped by this and is like, I'm going to give you a haircut. And I'm going to do this. And I'm going to talk to you about Joel and my thoughts and feelings about whether or not Joel is a suitable guardian for you. And like, you know, like she goes and she trades and she gets Ellie a really nice warm coat. And Ellie's pissy about the color. And Maria is just like, yeah, that's fine. Be a little brat.

It's fine. You're 14. That's what you should be. And I also love when Ellie is like, oh, this is what you did. You cut hair. And she's like, no. This is an assistant district attorney. Great scene.

But she does say that she loved cutting hair, right? It's something that she really enjoyed because, and this is where she brings up, being a mother. And we had seen the board. We had seen Kevin 4-3-2000 to 9-29-03, you know, three days after the outbreak for Kevin. And three years old, three years old, her son. devastating. Absolutely devastating. And then this is where Ellie learns because she thinks that Sarah was Maria's child too. Sarah was Joel's daughter. And we've been waiting for this moment. Like the look on Ellie's face realizing that she doesn't know this massive essential thing about Joel. You know, he said back in episode three, we can keep our histories to ourselves. But they've shared so much with each other since. Not that though. And I think it's worth remembering that there's a lot that Ellie has. hasn't told Joel either. And we don't know yet what those things are as viewers. We just know she hasn't shared them either. They've both kept back this central part of themselves. And it was

interesting to hear her talk about like, that explains him a little. Like the way that things maybe start to click into place in her head about who Joel is and how he behaves because of this. I think it's really interesting this Maria Ellie dynamic. And I think, again, the way we get to watch this revelation, sorry. I mean, I'm sorry not sorry to constantly say like in the game, but like in the game, because in the game you're only sticking with one POV, you're with Joel and Tommy and you don't get to go with Maria and Ellie. And so Ellie finds out about Sarah off screen and just comes back with that in front. Maria told me.

And so again, there's a lot to be said for the depth in which you can sink into a character when you're playing a video game. But then there's a lot to be said for the way in which a story like this can take you into different corners. It's very important, I think, for us to be with Ellie as she learns this. She's not going to show Maria the full depth of her shock at not knowing her hurt at not knowing this. And she says, you know, well, you know, that makes this make a bit more. sense. Like, yeah, that puts some pieces in a place for me.

I love when Maria says, well, you are smart, like to L.A., you know. But then, of course, we get this like major, I put it in bold, italicized, underline in our notes.

Be careful who you put your faith in. The only people who can betray us are the ones we trust. I felt that. Who wouldn't? It's just the nature of connection and the human experience. Rough on.

Let's talk about movie night at Jackson, Wyoming. Yeah. Are you a goodbye girl fan? I love the film The Goodbye Girl. It is not a film I would choose to show a room full of children, though. It's the Richard Dreyfus Romcom, The Goodbye Girl, from 1977. It is, however, a story about a man who meets a woman and her child, and, like, there's a tension of whether or not he's going to be. become like the man in their life and, you know, are they going to form a family or not?

So I guess that's thematically relevant. And then later when we cut back to Ellie in the sort of like lodge watching the film, we get these lines from the movie, what's tactful, a lie? You know what I mean? So that's something we've been tracking, not just like the lies that Joel tells Tommy in this episode, but the lies that the protector. that the parents tell the children, when do you lie to the thing or the person you're protecting? And when do you tell them the truth? When is a lie okay?

When is it not? It was interesting, too, to see, like, there's not a moment where Ellie just sinks into that reality and says, cool, I get to sit here with a bunch of other kids and enjoy movie night. She's looking, looking, where's Joel? Don't see Joel, but I see Tommy. Okay, I'm going to follow him.

him, which leads, of course, to her overhearing. Right. A pretty heart-wrenching stretch of the next scene. And what I love about that about Ellie's, like, discomfort with all the comforts of this spot, is that throughout, and even after they leave here, she does what Chris has been calling on the watch her, like, caveman lawyer routine of like, how did this work? How did civilization work? I don't understand your modern ways or whatever.

She's been so curious, how does a car work? How does this work? Blah. But yeah, she's not sitting there and being like, holy shit, a movie. Cool. No. She's where's Joel? Where's Joel?

All right. So what do you want to say about this? See him like a cobbler? A blacksmith? A cobbler shot? I don't know where he is. I love to find a work bench in the game and add a new holster so that an inept a D-pad user can more quickly.

access my weaponry. This scene was devastating. This is what we've wanted from Joel, what we've been waiting for, beautifully acted, to share what is in his heart and what is on his mind

with another human being, to not just carry this around in secret and in silence forever. And as is often the case with people who push something down, it all, it's the dam again, the damn breaks.

And it all comes pouring. out at once. What was going through his mind when Tess asked him to do this? It was her dying wish, what the hell was I supposed to do? That tells us something more about what Tess meant to him.

The thickness of the emotion in his voice, when he's recounting how Ellie was the one who saved him, what she had to do as a 14-year-old in Kansas City. When he talked about,

I saw a man kill his own brother to save her. While I just watched, he's going through these moments where he feels like, an observer in his own life, this active person who is now in his own mind defined by his passivity, the moment where the dog came. And he and Ellie, in that instance, are both thinking the same thing. I was bitten. Is this dog going to smell it and tear me apart? And Joel says,

I couldn't move. I couldn't think of anything to say. I just, I was so afraid. And he is allowing himself to be vulnerable, allowing himself to not have to be the strong one for once. and it just keeps going. The moment where he talked about his dreams and Tommy asks what he's dreaming of and he says he doesn't know, I can't remember, I just know that when I wake up,

I've lost something. I'm failing in my sleep. I mean, that, that line will really, really stay with me, like the weight of this sense of inadequacy that there's no rest. No, there's no respite from that doubt.

And the creators have talked a lot. You know, we chatted about this earlier in today's pot and in episode four when this was very present in that car conversation about needing to go save Tommy, like describing Joel as a narcissist. And recontextualizing that here was really fascinating to me because he's the kind of narcissist who needs that narcissism. That narcissism gives him purpose. It gives him a sense that he has worth and value to other people. And to see that kind of melt away here, I'm just going to get. her killed. He's asking Tommy to take Ellie instead. I know it. I know it. I have to leave here. He doesn't want to have to leave. I have to leave her. He doesn't want to have to leave it. I'm sorry, Slate on her grave. Like the fear of another loss is too much for him to bear. He can't go through that again. And so what is the alternative? It's to not be with her at all. I can't fail somebody if I'm not there for them. And Ellie will have to tell him in the ensuing scene. how backwards that is, how wrong that is,

that the way that he would fail her is by not being there for her at all, this was just like an absolutely heart-wrenching. Even the way he's like, I mean, that's why you took off on me right line when he's appealing to Tommy to do this. Joel, who is about to abandon Ellie, feels abandoned by Tommy and is repeating this cycle and, like, can't break out of it. It's just absolutely heart-wrenching.

And the way in which he uses, you already referenced this earlier a bit, but like the way in which he uses Tess's tactic on him, on Tommy to say this is a way to get, to get our hands clean of all the things that we did. If we help this girl get to the fireflies, you can make a better role, make a better role for your kid.

Right. Right. Yep. That idea of like redemption, hope, all that sort of stuff, is, and then he tries to redraw the lines of us versus them,

telling Tommy that he can't tell Maria, right? This is an us secret. But again, as we mentioned earlier, Tommy walks into movie night. Maria knows just by looking at him. Instantly. Instantly. Yeah. So Joel walks into Ellie's where Ellie's saying.

She's reading this diary. This is ripped directly from the game of Ellie sitting here reading a diary, meeting like boys movies, deciding which shirt goes with which skirt? Is this like all they had to worry about back then? And again, it's in contrast to her, like, delight and curiosity of the before times. This, like, this cozy comfort of Jackson. And she's like, what is this? Like, this doesn't feel right.

This feels itchy on my skin. She knows, just as Maria knew about Tommy, but Ellie knows from his rapping that he's going to leave her. And this is, like, similar to, again, the only people who can hurt are the people you trust. Similar to the Joel and Tommy conversation in the bar where they're just, slicing in each other, here come these two, just absolutely cutting into each other and some of the toughest stuff. Again, lines of dialogue, some of the most famous lines of dialogue I'm given to understand, lifted directly from the game.

Everyone I've ever cared for has either died or left me, except for fucking you. Don't tell me I would be safe with someone else because the truth is I would just be more scared. And then Joel with, correct me if I'm using the wrong term here, the haymaker, you're right, you're not my daughter. And I sure as hell ain't your dad. In the game this moment is interrupted by an attack because honestly, you never go like a few minutes without another attack. But here, Joel walks out, goes sit in his room in the darkness and thinks about... Cry alone. Sarah.

He thinks about we get this scene, what I love, we get the flash of Sarah. face. And you already saw a young woman in the crowd earlier that that looked like Sarah to him, right? But more painful, I think, is that flash of their hands. He's got the watch on. It's whole. It's still working, right? Her hands are so small. This is an earlier memory of Sarah. We don't even see, like, a different actresses there. We just see tinier hands as they put the ornaments on the tree. A very delicate little moment. And again, this is one of those situations where, like, Ian Jackson, surrounded by all these creature. comforts. I feel like Joel is forced to confront memories he hasn't had to think. He hasn't been, I don't think they're celebrating the holidays in the QZ where he came from. And so he doesn't have to think about the beautiful times before when he decorated the tree with his little kid. You know what I mean?

And so surround, he's forced to confront all these memories of what it was like before. Tommy again, knows him from that time before. To be around someone who has known you from a different time, to be around these creature comforts that remind you of a different time. So much pain, so much lashing out. Incredible. I love that point you just made about these like visual reminders to pull you, to port you back and pull you back because even if we think of where Joel finds Ellie, it's like in a

teenage girl's bedroom. And so she's saying, I'm not her, you know. Maria told me about Sarah and he just, no, don't say another word. But it's, I think for us, impossible to believe that he's not thinking about Sarah the second he opens that door for so many different reasons.

I, you have no idea what losses. Everybody I have cared for has either died or left me. Everybody, everybody fucking except you. Man, like, I really love the simultaneous stack that Ellie is calling Joel out and saying you're not the only one. Like your grief is the supreme and defining thing about you,

but you are not the only one who has lost somebody. And Ellie has grown up in a world where the only currency that you can bank on is losing people. That's it. That's the one truth of existence for Ellie and for people who have grown up in this world. And so I love that she called him out on that, but also that inside of that, there's this real vulnerability on her part.

too. Don't tell me that I'm safer with someone else. Like, there's just, I would just be more scared. Oh. It also just guts me. They have this horrible confrontation and then it just guts me that Ellie is just like dressed and ready to go at Don waiting to see who opens the door. And the way that he's like, you're not my daughter. I'm sure it's hell. You know, we're going our separate ways. Like, again, we feel I think that he's doing this like, I need to push you away. I need to. I need. you to go so that you're not harmed in my care and like that's a very familiar story beat for for us as genre fans.

The note I made in our in our dock was throw rocks at Nymeria at time. That's how I always call it now is like rocks. It's rocks at Nymeria. Go. Escape. Oh, man. So Tommy shows up.

They go to the stables. Joel is there. He had planned to. steal a horse, right? And I love that he had planned to steal a horse because, again, Tommy, like, Tommy already gave him boots. Tommy gave him this. Tommy gave him that. He hates having to take things from Tommy. He hates Tommy providing for him. So Tommy's like, I would have given you horse. He's like, yeah, I know. But like, I wanted to steal it. So I didn't have to like ask you for it. And I love that Ellie just like cuts him off from whatever speech he was about to make it. She's just like,

let's go. Let's go. Yeah. Good. Yeah. And just Tommy saying there's a place for you here, both of you and the smile on Ellie's face because, like, again, that's a, maybe there is, it is a we. It isn't us. Yeah. Both of you.

Audio's big brother. All right. We're running low on time. We're going to like zoom through the rest of this. But do you need, do you have anything you need to say about Joel's jacket situation in this episode? Oh, just, you know, I miss the, the Flint and Tinder wax trucker. That was a real constant in our early last of us experience.

Though I do really love this new thicker wear. It's just, it's a delight to track the outerware across the Last of Us universe. I'm amazed how many really fashionable and stylish coats people are able to find 20 years into the apocalypse. Good for, good for all of them. But we can return to the outerwear later. Let's talk about squeezing the trigger like you love it. Gentle, steady, nice and slow. You get a shoot this thing or get it pregnant.

Watching. Pedro, Pascal, like, grin. Again, we've seen Joel laugh, but I just don't think that we've seen him smile this much in a row as we see him in these sequences. There's an immediate, real tangible change, a softening in an embrace. It's not just okay.

I felt guilty and bad. So I gave you the choice you made it. I'm here. We know that by the time he was there 30 minutes later in the stables, it was he had come to terms with himself. If I'm going to do this, we're going to actually live a different kind of life together. And so teaching her to hunt when he wouldn't before,

there's absolutely no more like, you sure ask a lot of questions stuff. He's so excited to tell her about what his job used to be and that like, yeah, we were cool. Everybody loved contractors moment was so great too. Everybody loved contractors. It's like we know that that was not how we felt about it, you know? Think about back in episode one, the absolute dread he has about the double shift they need to pull.

Are the other guys going to show up? When Sarah talked about selling drugs, he says it's better than what I did. This is a chance for reinvention. And some of that is like the myth you could build about who you were before. And some of that is about who you can be now and how those things are tied up in each other. And that builds into the football talk, which I loved. I want to see them advance into some real scheme discussion. I want to know after Joel hopefully heals in as well in future episodes,

they're going to break down some RPO. I know you're like, why are they talking about first down, fourth down turnovers? Let's get to the zone read. Maybe they should have talked about baseball, given the role that the bat played later in the episode. I had to Google RPO when you texted it to me last night. Here's one of the nicest things that Mallory has ever said to me in my life. She said, I know you know way more about football than Ellie does.

And it's true, and it makes me really happy to feel. like at least I'm not as ignorant as Ellie on the football front. So they hit I just love all this. I love it. Yeah, it's all great. They, and the shots are beautiful. Like, they literally ride off into the sunset, right? Yeah.

And as beautiful as Jackson was to contrast their extreme discomfort in the beauty of that civilization to their extreme ease on the road together, like this is, this is their home, being on the road together, right? Riding this horse together. So they ride, they clip-clop into the university here, home of the big horns. Again, there's running sheep joke in this episode. Love an inside joke. The universe looks, the university looks absolutely terrifying.

I would not go. I would not go. Personally. A got a gothic horror film is what this university looks like. But I love them clip-clop. They're clip-clopping around. They're talking about, like, oh, you know, people went to a university to find themselves, you She's so great.

They wanted to do it their lives. Like this dreamy quality. This is completely foreign idea. That was great. What did you think of Joel talking about wanting to be a singer? Mallory, as you know, I like, if Pedro Pescal sings in the show, I'm going to literally die. You know, I love a musical moment. It's going on my list for at the end of the year when we talk about top moments of the year.

It's going to be if Pedro Pescal sings in this show. Something I do know. Again, we're not playing ahead. We're not watching ahead. We don't know. There's something I do know. from the ether is that there's something about guitars and singing that is like a part of the game that is important.

So this is not a nothing throwaway moment. Like there's something about Joel and Ellie and the guitar and singing that is, I've seen images. Yeah. Running up that I-25. Okay. I just love this because like he's, it's these little subtle changes, but he's allowing himself to think about the future. And an impractical, an impractical future.

Sheep farmer? No, singer. That's where we'll live on the moon shit, right? He's meeting you're on our level. Do you want to live on the moon? Do you want to be a singer? Have some fun again. Why not?

And again, survival is insufficient. You can survive being a sheep farmer. But are you living being a singer? You know what I mean? Like, and introducing art back into the world. Again, like movie night and Jackson, etc. Okay. Everything looks abandoned.

This is very spooky. Yeah. In addition to the very spooky sense. getting numerous shrieking monkeys running free if you would continue to enter the premises in question. No, because I've seen 28 days later. Yeah, that was my feeling as well, Joanna. So absolutely not.

And yet, our Darwin Award winner of the day. Cholinelli. I would just go back. I would go immediately back to Jackson is what I would do. And then we get people, these people outside. And we don't know them. And like, again, in the game, Joel is constantly killing people. And he's not doing that anymore in the show.

So when he kills this guy, when he breaks his neck and we've spent the hour thinking about what Maria said about Joel, what Tommy said about Joel, how Ellie feels about Joel and who he kills and when. Like, this does feel like a survival moment. It's us. It's us or him, you know. These guys are coming up with melee weapons in their hands to take their shit and probably harm them. And this whole idea too of like, well, that was five easy days of the ride. Like there's this specter always of this horror they've heard of lurking around the bend. But these people are attacking them.

I was like, hell yeah. A crouch, stealth listen into, oh no, I turned around the wrong. I don't know how to use my joystick. This guy stuck up on me, triangle square. I was like, yes. A friend of mine was talking to me, a friend of mine who plays the game was talking to me about the bloater after last episode. And he was like, do you know how to get through the bloater and the baseman or something like

that? I was like, no. And he was like, you have to sneak around it. Like, you can't find it. You have to, you have to stealth around it. It took me literally an hour and a half to figure that out. I mean, no joke. Like.

So a key difference in terms of Joel's abdominal wound here is that in the game, he falls down on some rebar that goes up through his abdomen. And so in or, and then like, people are calming for them. So Ellie has to pull him off the rebar to get out of there. And again, you're inside Joel's head. So, like, your gaze keeps slipping. The screen keeps darkening as you're sort of going in and out of consciousness. So, like, that's all true.

But, like, again, we know that Ellie doesn't know science. She smeared blood on an open wound and thought it would work. We know that Joel doesn't know science. He doesn't know how damn creates electricity out of water. I don't either, Joel. It's okay. But I know you don't pull the thing out of the wound. You don't pull the baseball bat handle out of your abdomen because that's when the blood starts gushing.

I couldn't believe it. I was like shocking stuff from Joel. The survival 101. Joel Miller in this moment. Oh, boy. Okay. So then we end with like as you say, as you said earlier, Joel is like literally gray. Caldrova style.

Fun fact about the game. Again, I'm not played ahead, but I did know this about. the game. You play for Ellie for a little while here. And it's a, it's a thing that they lied about when they released the game. People were like, do you get to play as Ellie and Joel? And they were like, nope, just Joel, because they were like preserving this moment where like, Joel is incapacitated by a wound and Ellie has to figure out what to do next. You know, that's where we are in, in the game. Joel is on the ground. Not light man. It's on the ground. And Ellie has to figure out what they're going to do.

They're in the middle of nowhere. So it's troubling. Peril. Our old Fred Parall from Rings of Power. I can't fucking do this without you. I don't know where the fuck I'm going. What the fuck I'm going to do? Joel, please.

Joel, please. Touching his face, the tears in her eyes. Just devastating. And then Joe, what do we hear? Craig Mason promised we'd get it again in a very different context. It's Depeche Mode. Never let me down again. This is a cover.

The cover, the kind of cover. you would hear in like a film trailer. But yeah, there's this great, amazing quote about the use of the song in episode one that he gave. 80s means trouble, as we know. This is an 80s song, it's back. We heard it in episode one. Mason says a lot of 80s music is chipper and fun. But with this, I was looking for an uptempo 80s song that has a darkness to us.

Lically, what never let me down again is about is, I'm taking a ride with my best friend. He was singing about drugs. It was a song about addiction. Well, Ellie's about to take a ride with her best friend and Joel is a dangerous man. Joel's about to take a ride with his best friend. He doesn't know she's his best friend yet. She's a dangerous little girl, a little psycho. Now the point is, you're never going to let me down.

They're going to let each other down. And then they're not. And then they are. And then they're not. That thought was really interesting, a really interesting way in. There's a grand tradition of 80s music in The Last of Us and the Last of Us Part 2 and 80s means trouble. I love that one of the things that Neil has done so beautifully at Nottie Dog is hurt you for the things you love and taking things that are bright and beautiful and cheery and optimistic and giving them. them, this dark undertone.

So here comes the Depechevon. Here comes trouble. Mallory, just a couple episodes left. Anything you want to say? Before we go? Just keep moving to one direction, you know, just like in the football game. Like Stanis would say, you go forward. Only forward.

I just hope Joel's going to be okay. I'm concerned. That was a lot of blood. A lot of blood. And it's probably very dirty bat. Oh, God. It looked very. very tough.

There's splinters too, I'm sure. Okay, so Hobbiton drag is at Gmail.com. If you have thoughts and feelings. Van and Charles will be back with our instant reactions for episode seven. We'll be back with a deep dive for episode seven. We would look forward to your emails, of course, always. Pokerface, please check that out.

A really, really incredible episode. A staunching episode of television that Robin Honey and I will be covering on this feed. Malarina will be back in the Ringiverse. This episode was produced by the great Carlos Churaboga. And until next time, Should you watch the goodbye girl? Let's do some extra credit and watch the Richard Dreyfus class.

Bye!