The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘The Last of Us’ Episode 8 Deep Dive

Episode Date: March 8, 2023

Joanna and Mallory dive deep into Episode 8 of ‘The Last of Us.’ They discuss the introduction of a new group of people and their creepy religious leader, David. They also break down Ellie’s efforts to protect an injured Joel, as well as all the other action from the episode. Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Associate Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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You have a violent heart, and I should know. I've always had a violent heart. And I struggled with it for a long time. But then the world ended, and I was shown the truth. Right. By God. By cordyceps. What does Corticeps do? Is it evil? No. It's fruitful. It multiplies. It feeds and protects its children. And it secures its future with violence if it must. It loves. Back to the Prestige TV, podcast, feed. I'm doing a Robinson and joining me today to accept the word of our Lord and Savior, Corticeps. It's Mallory.

Joe, you're inviting me to your hunger club? Thanks. Just as long as you acknowledge that the fungus loves too. It's very important for us all to know. Hello, we are here to talk about The Last of Us, episode eight, when we are in need, directed by Aliabasi and written by Craig. Mays have never heard of him. Before we get into that, we're just going to do quick programming reminders, right? in this feed.

Instant reactions from Van and Charles. You know that that's happening. We only have one more week of this. If you haven't caught on by now, catch up. Van and Charles are doing incredible job breaking down their instant reactions to the last of us. We also have the last. This is the finale week for PokerFace. So Rob Mahoney and I will be covering the last of PokerFace, which is another fun cross-country romp, fewer mushrooms, more Natasha Leon.

Great stuff. And then also just peppered through the feed like a delicious songbird that you have to eat on our napkin. Do you pepper those? I don't know. We are doing some succession. The gamey brainy hit? Does it need pepper? We are doing some succession Hall of Fame episodes.

Sean and Chris and Bill already did one. We've got another one that I did with Derek Thompson and Bill that's coming out. So we'll just, you know, Bill's just gathering all of us around the heart. to celebrate the Roy family as we lead up to the succession premiere later this month. And we'll be sort of doing coverage on that in this feed. Mallory, it's a lot. You and I are also doing Mandalorian on the Ring Reverse. A lot going on.

How do folks keep up with all of that? Double Pedro Pascal action for us, Joe. What a thrill. What a treat. How to follow? Well, the first suggestion is to actually follow. Follow the pod on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Follow the Prestige TV pod.

Follow the ringerverse pod. Follow trial by content. Follow it all. And while you're at it, follow along on social media. The ringer crew is everywhere. TikTok, Instagram, Twitter. I'm just waiting for Peach to make its comeback. And you know what?

You can send your longer musings, your Apple thoughts, your show theories, your keen insights, your mushroom recipes to the inbox, which is piping hot as always, spreading. like a cordyceps mesh network week by week. Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. The inbox loves too, Mallory. Yeah, exactly. Speaking of, we're going to just hit a few emails here before we dive into the examination

of the episode. This first email is just an excuse for me to pressure Mallory to go to the dentist. Okay, this comes from Leslie who says, random. That was for your mom, Mallory. Random, but can we talk about hygiene and the post-apocalyptic world. Everyone seems concerned about Ellie's period, but I want to know what toothpaste they're using or what in holy fluoride they were using before. I get ragged if I don't go more than six months between dental visits and these people are waltzing around with fungus zombies looking

like they're using Colgate strips. I just like to clarify for the record that I practice excellent dental hygiene at home. This is a reference for anyone joining us today to the fact that I just don't go to the doctor and my mom has sent Joanna multiple emails asking her to convince me to go to the eye doctor. This is a real thing that has happened if you are new to the house of our experience. Mallory's teeth gleam, like the top of the Chrysler building.

Like, you know, you've beautiful teeth. I do think I have a cavity or two that needs attention. You think it has anything to do with the fact that I order candy by the satchel? I love getting photos of your candy satchels. Speaking of amazing photos I've received. First of all, we got this email from Bonnie.

who wrote, before I started listening to Joanna Robinson, I didn't even really know that actors wore wigs and TV and movies. I truly just assumed that actors had to dye and style their hair in a certain way. Now I have just watched the first half of the first episode of Daisy Jones on The 6th. When Timothy Olifant showed up, I nearly did a spit take. So welcome Bonnie to the Church of Wigwatch. We're glad you're here. Follow up. A listener, actually, I decided not to name them because this came from like the set of

of Daisy Jones on the Six, so in case this person is going to get in trouble for sending me a set photo. But they sent me Timothy Oliphant's wig on like a wig dummy thing, just like in isolation, just that I could see it in all its glory off of Tim's head. So if you have not seen what's happening on Timothy Olin, like patron saint of the ringer-verse, Timothy Oliphon over on Daisy Jones on the Sixth, currently airing on Amazon Prime, you might want to check it out. Um, last but not least. These are very crucial emails that I've decided. This is from Elsie, who says,

Oh dear, what do I do when in my cold and dark Minnesota winter snug and cozy watching The Last of Us? I see that a character on screen has the same idea and is trying to stay warm in the exact same sea glass green thermal Henley from American Eagle circa 2021. I don't know how fatherless Hannah got that shirt in the apocalypse. Maybe American Eagle is still kicking in Atlanta, guns, pills, and moderately players' clothes? Now I have a dilemma. Do I ever wear my cozy thermal-handly again? Or is it now tainted by canalism? This is a PS from Elsie's email.

Elsie wrote as the new assistant supervisor of the Minnesota Fruit and Wine Department at the Minnesota State Fair. I would encourage everyone to try a first kiss apple, quote-unquote, first kiss apple, more commonly seen in stores as the rave apple. this apple is a child of the honey crisp. So I had to clune this email for two reasons. Number one, Apple Corner from an expert. Yeah. Love when an expert weighs in. Number two, Mallory, you love a Henley.

I love a Henley. I know you do. I can't believe this is the first Zoom in our last like 175 zooms where I'm not wearing a Henley. I love a Henley. I think that incorporating 2021 attire into the Pills and Bullets model, it's a pivot for Fedra and one I wasn't expecting, but great callout. You know, do you want to keep wearing a shirt that a cannibal wore?

I think you can allow it in this case because Hannah didn't know. Hannah didn't know that she was eaten. She's no David. Yeah, only a few. Only a few folks in the know. It's fine. Keep wearing the Henley. Wear it with pride and comfort.

Spoiler warnings. Yeah. Should we have done the spoiler warning before we talked about the cannibalism? Possibly. possibly. But hey, we're talking about season one episode eight, when we are a need. Spoilers on the table. I'm watching a similar plate room.

Are they on the table next to the chunks of Avalik? No, like mixed in, I think, with this dude tomatoes. Like that's a garnish or a seasoning? Let's call it a garnish. Okay. The spoiler garnish is on the table. Mallory Rubin. It's only Tuesday.

You don't even have Friday brain yet. I don't know what's going on. I do. It's Tuesday, but I do have Friday brain. I do. As you can surely tell. I'm watching a cinematic play-through. Mallory is playing the game week-to-week.

We are not playing ahead or watching ahead. Nor do we know what happens in season two and or part two of the game, et cetera, et cetera. So that's sort of our approach. Our listeners sometimes emailing me spoilers without paying attention to that? Yes, they have. but we will, you know, we will soldier on. As I mentioned, this episode is directed by Alia Bassian, who I just want to shout out, directed a great film, Holy Spider, which was that can this year. So, like, the directing talent that they've gotten, that they've plucked out of, like, sort of the cool European film world has been, you know, a really fun part of The Last of Us.

Let me take you now to the Silver Lake Bible Camping Casino. Where our guy David is a preaching. Scott Shepard is sort of the main guest star of this episode as David. Phenomenal creepy ginger performance from Scott Shepard. How did you react when you, when we first, we see David here, he's doing the old Revelation 21, love Revelations. Definitely not a scary part of my doing Revelation 21 and God will wipe away all fears. How did you feel about this intro, Mal? Yeah, so a couple of things.

I mean, the very first shot that we get is this wide shot of the location, this like visibly frigid vista, this isolated locale. You can feel the winter in your bones. And it's the kind of cold that's like so thick you can see it. So right away, we know what sort of vibe and environment we're going to be in for before we go inside. hearing David preaching as an opening note for the episode, I thought was fascinating for a few reasons. This takes us into the Silver Lake Resort community.

This takes us into David's community, though it's not much of a community, ultimately, which means that we're in their point of view. And one of the things that we've tracked across the season is when we spend time with the new characters who were introduced us inside of a given episode through a perspective other than Joel's or Ellie.

So to get that right away really puts us on the wrong foot in terms of what we're expecting and what we're readying for and what we're preparing for. And then that gets to the decision to make David a preacher. You know, this banner that we see in the mess hall,

which the episode takes its name from, is present in the game setting. But this aspect of David's character is... The episode is built around that, and that is a new adaptive choice. So in terms of what that adaptive choice tells us, Joe, you love to study the Bible. I do, actually. I think it's a really important. What hate you with this passage?

I mean, so I want to take a moment to do some conversation premising here as we talk about this. Because David is an absolute psychopath monster, right, who is using the Bible and biblical language to manipulate. manipulate and control his community here. Mal and I aren't very religious people in general. Like, you know, I think that's fair to say. But anything I say about this specific use of religion in this episode and for this character, hashtag not all Christians, essentially. Like, I'm not, this is not, we're not doing like a blanket commentary on faith.

This is a way a specific person is abusing a specific doctrine, someone that he doesn't even believe in, that he's omits later to. is just using. So I thought, you know, to your point, this is an adaptive choice from the game. First of all, David's role is boosted up significantly, like even from his appearance in the game. Like, he shows up and he does a lot of this terrible shit in the game. But I would say we spend even more time with him here in this episode than we do in the gameplay.

And then secondly, to your other point, the religious thread is added in. I thought this was, we got an interesting email from listener who goes by Nerf, who says, who identifies as some person of faith, who says, we only see David teach up to verse four of Revelations, but verse eight of that chapter says, but the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters, and all liars,

they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death. NERF goes on to say, each of these, you know, descriptors, describe who David is perfectly. It's perfect foreshadowing of the final confrontation between him and Ellie and his death, with his body burning being the second death, the first being by Ellie's hand. So I just thought that was interesting. I don't know if that was, you know, Mazen and Dreckman's intention in using revelations here,

but I think it's a great way to start. It's a really interesting look at it. And Mazen talked, you know, for a significant amount of time on the official post. podcast about this idea of a theocracy and whether or not it works as a way to run a community. But yeah, I don't know. Like, what do you think of this as an addition, Mel? A adaptive choice. I like it.

I thought it was potent. I thought it was an effective way to continue a season-long examination of the many different manifestations, the way that the same idea can manifest differently depending on intention. That old Steve Rogers intention idea that we always love to return to. faith, love, community, protection. You know, I think that the idea of faith and protection are very entwined in this episode in a way that forces us to really confront the fact that protection is something we talk about often as a good. But it can be weaponized and deployed as an evil and used as a way to manipulate and control,

which is what David does. And so I think like the, you know, when I saw a new heaven and a new earth for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away, right? to use this passage to put us in a mindset of rebirth. Now, this is a funeral for Alec. David says that he's had to read the passage many times. We understand. We can glean that he is returning to this idea and this verse anytime that the members of Silver Lake lose one of their own.

But this is hardly the only moment in the episode where rebirth is presented to us. There are a number of baptisms in the episode or symbols. What do we think of when we see a stag? Out in the woods, we think of rebirth and regeneration, the blanket of snow that is covering this entire episode. In our House of the Dragon Run, we won't get into specific spoilers from that show, but something that you tracked brilliantly across the episode

was the idea of a baptism by blood, right? That's very present in this episode as well. So you have that, all of those themes. And then you have a character like David who, you know, this is an episode. All of the episodes are very rich on a rewatch. And right away, we're on edge. We're nervous. In the world of The Last of Us, you never know if you can trust, which is another recurring theme. And there are a lot of things right away. I thought that Van and Charles rightly identified that the looks on the faces in the room make you unease immediately. But like David, we can see as a character who, you know, again, he's standing in front of the when we are in need.

He shall provide banner. That's not about God. for him. We'll hear later him mock his own people for needing God and needing heaven. He wants to be the he there for them, the he that provides. The religion for him is just a form of control. When Ellie asks him later, if he's part of a cult, he's basically like, yes. You know, cordyceps took the old earth and the old heaven, and now I get to use these ideas that give other people some sort of way to construct and their life, give it meaning, find comfort, build community. And I get to use that to build the world that I want to live in and that allows me to do

the things, the horrible things that I want to do. He likens himself, you know, he directly likens himself to the father, right, throughout this, which means he, in his own mind, is the God king of this community. And that is, you know, I say from a purely atheistic point of view, that is a deep, and dark perversion of like, you know, the healthy good that some congregations can provide for their people. He's using this holy language not only as this parable for the apocalypse, but to prop himself up into a position of deification and reverence. Speaking of fathers, let's talk about Hannah, she of the sea glass green Henley,

who is mourning her father. And if you don't catch it right away here at the beginning of the episode, it becomes clear. later when David's talking to Ellie, that her father, Alec, is the man who attacked Joel and Ellie in the last episode. Big baseball fan. You know, left the business end of a splintered baseball bat in Joel's abdomen and died, right? And David says they'll bury her father in the spring. And too many in Charles's point, there's some looks here that'll be like, no, we won't.

So something Hinky is going on right away. And that is the perfect moment to introduce our guy. Mallory and I are recent fans of his podcasting skills. It is Troy Baker. The actor who played Joel in the game shows up as James. Brilliant. Great. Delightful time.

He's so good in this episode. I mean, he's so good in his performance in the video game. He's great on the official podcast. What can he do? Exactly. Yeah, great on Instagram, just crushing it all around. This was really, really, really, really fun. Yeah, it was delightful.

And what I love about the casting, not just of Troy, but of everyone in this congregation in this episode, is that everyone is embodying lean times in their life. look, right? Just scraggly beards, gaunt faces, ruddy. You know, Troy Baker is an extremely handsome man and they just like sort of, I mean, it still looks nice in this episode, but they just like ruddy the cheeks. The eyes are bleary. Like everything is just looking, you know, deprivation. I think they said is is the key word of what's going on in this camp here. And so I just love the casting they did from, you know, Josiah down in this, in this congregation. Can't

wait to spend 45 minutes on Josiah's death face later. I've never seen anything like it. Anyway, um, a lot me till my grave, Joe. I wanted to ask you, because before we zoom in on those ruddy cheeks, yeah,

we get to kind of pan the, the, the, the, the, the main stretch of Maintown Silver Lake there. And, you know,

we see some boarded up. Calgary, USA. Yeah. Yeah. We see some boarded up doors and windows, etc. But broadly this looks like an intact town, a habitable and actually kind of nice place to live, which of course makes us think about Jackson. Another place that when we saw it visually, we thought, hey, yeah, this is a place that

you can put down roots. And so I liked the way the show clearly was playing on our new tendency to maybe think hey, is this okay? Like we were trained so often to mistrust, and then they have to train us in reverse, whether it's by seeing when you lower the ladder into the pit with Bill and Frank, or Henry and Sam reach out,

they make their move with Joel and Ellie, and it works, or you walk into Jackson and you see a functioning society, hey, maybe this will be okay, so that then when the differences reveal themselves over the course of the episode, we are even more unmoored and disturbed than we would have been

if we had only expected one thing the whole time. And I think what's fascinating to think about is, like, who is leading in these various spots, right? So we've got David here. Right. It's not just enough to have intact houses and a little cove. You've got to have a functioning setup. Right.

This was really interesting to hear Mason and Druckman talk about on the pod. So this is where they're talking. They get into this idea of a theocracy, right? Like, and again, David's perversion of theocracy. But if you compare David. how David run things. They brought up Maria and how she runs things. I'll talk about that in a second.

But also we have to think about Kathleen or Bill and Frank and their sort of like joint leadership of their little neighborhood. Like these various leadership styles, not to mention these various kinds of societal structures. There's like a cute little toss-off line in the episode when they're in Jackson about like the fact that this is a communist, you know, community. Stop Tommy in his tracks. But I thought what was so interesting that Maze was.

pointing out, it's like, maybe more, even more importantly than this idea of communism is this idea that Maria was that great line where she talks about being a district attorney. They're like, so Maria is a woman who is running this society's community in Jackson by law. And, you know, and she talks about the council and the rotating and like all, how everything is like a well-oiled machine in Jackson, right? And then I think there's this interesting idea of like Maria as not just a woman, but like a like a obviously pregnant woman, like all this sort of thing. authority, a woman of color, et cetera, et cetera, contrasted with David the ultimate symbol of the patriarchy here, who is like, who literally calls himself the father of this community, could not be whiter, you know, et cetera, et cetera, is, you know, by the way, is a pedophile,

great stuff. And so just that Mason says, I believe religion doesn't do a good job running the state. I believe religion does a terrible job running a state. And that was sort of his idea on theocracy. And again, like, I think churches have their place, but separation of church and state is something I personally very much believe in. And so when it's muddied and especially when it is adopted disingenuously, the way that David doesn't hear, disaster follows.

Right. And used to hold people in your thrall in a way that almost inherently precludes anything even approaching true community. And that shared buy-in, the way that they talk in Jackson about the investment, the trust, the belief. It doesn't mean that it's impossible that something could happen or come along one day that could disrupt that. But they'd be better equipped to deal with it if it did. And like that point about the laws and the skeleton of society, like, if you don't have that, if you don't mind the literal law, it's not too hard to show. straight into violating the natural law,

which is where we find these characters. And like the hints that we get right away, this really great conversation between David and James about faith, David, you know, you're like, you understand right away, this is, this is clearly like the number two, a guy in the inner circle, and yet look at the dynamic. I loved when David asked how much food they have left. And then he said venison elk rabbit.

And you're like, Thank you for clarifying that you didn't mean how much people need do you have left. Appreciate the distinction so that we can get, you know, let's get a spreadsheet going with some different columns. How many days can we last if we're eating the game? How many days can we make it if we're eating each other? Right. And at what point, like, because Alec conveniently got himself killed on a mission. But like when they run out of Alec and I guess the three other people were him.

They had those. Yeah, they had a lot of folks. They run out of all of those. Do that and then start killing their own in order to, you know, I have to imagine so. Yeah. Make it to the spring. Unless folks are continuing to die naturally, which maybe they would be,

given the state of affairs there. I have to say the reveal that Josiah and Martin thought they spotted a deer, quote, the other night. Just going to say, let's see some hustle. If you're all eating each other, you're eating your own dead and you think you spotted a deer, let's mention it immediately. Let's spring into action. To be fair, Josiah looks like he is barely scraping by with like whatever brain cells he has left in his like protein deprived head. It's true. I did love the line when James said it was dark. You see what you want to see sometimes because that really

works both ways. That's another idea that is so, so firmly entrenched in perspective. You know, you can see hope in a shadow if you want to. If that's your mindset, if you believe in the possibility of it, but you can also tell yourself in the dark that you're not eating people, that you're eating deer, that what you're doing is necessary. You don't have to look that shame in the face. It's dear meat. It's fine. This is fine. Okay. Meanwhile, in the world's the crappiest suburb, right? Joel looking clammy, right? Not looking well. It's getting starting. Amazing enough to say only a day or two has passed, right? So, Ellie, you know, Ellie has been trying to figure out how to keep Joel alive for a day or two here. I was revisiting an episode four conversation they had for a reason we'll get into later in this discussion. But there's that conversation they have in the woods where he cautions her against starting a fire, not because it will attract cordyceps, but because it will attract people. And so when we see Ellie is like freezing and the horse is freezing and everyone is just looking.

looks so cold. She can't even, you know, indoors or no, she cannot start a fire because this is a rule that Joel has ingrained in her. And what's also true is that like, Joel is there, but he's not really there. And so, and as we mentioned before in the past, this is the moment in the game where you start playing as Ellie, right? And in fact, in the game, and, you know, you experience this yourself, Mal, but like, in fact, in the game, there's a little stretch where you're like, is Joel even still alive?

Right. You're not sure. You pick up after the time. jump in the new season in the winter with Ellie on the hunt. That's where that's where the stretch begins. And yeah, you don't know. You don't know if Joel's going to be okay. So this is Ellie confronting her biggest fear that we learned about in a previous episode being alone. Yeah. You had mentioned last week, Joe, that you thought the wound looked like a bite mark. I really, it was in my mind seeing this, it really stood out the visual parallel in a way that I love. Because like, especially inside of an

episode like this where you have David in a really warped, toxic, horrific way espousing these parallels between cordyceps and society, and that's something we've been tracking across the season. And any time these parallels or these bits of symmetry, a thematic visual or otherwise manifest, it's just, it's so compelling. The wound hygiene is something we do need to spend another minute talking about. We discussed the failure to disinfect the needle and thread last week. I would like to express a couple new concerns. Not washing the wound.

Let's at least get some snow. Let's do something. Let's do something. We can fill a bucket with snow for callous to water. Let's get some washing of the wound. But aren't there like microbes in the snow? I am not a doctor nor a scientist. So maybe this would be a bad idea.

Well, I am. But I think leaving it like this is. is also a bad idea, which brings me to my next note for Ellie, who I love. Yeah. You got to put a bit of just some sort of clean cloth on top of that. To put this shirt that Joel has been wearing. Just keep folding. Boston, since Frank's closet on top of this.

And to peel it off like the skin of a rotting orange. What the hell? It was just very, very, very distressing. Like the skin of a rotting orange. You should make that sound when you lift it off of flesh. All right. Well, I have some notes and questions for you now, Mallory. Okay?

So Ellie, doing the best that she can. Yes, she's doing great. No medical training. She's doing great. And I love it. And I think that the commitment is unbelievably touching. And to see her in a caregiving role is genuinely one of the most moving and sweetest things we've seen in the season.

I was bold over with emotion. And then I thought, should we change Joel shirt? And I can hold both of those true. in my mind at once. But like put what on? Okay, anyway, point being, Ellie goes out to hunt to try to like contribute something. If she can't contribute.

You don't think there's a shirt in any of those houses? A shirt. A dishcloth. But I feel like David's people have been sort of like looting those places for a while now. They didn't get that needle and thread. They missed something. Okay, here's the question I have for you. It's really important.

If we're, if we're ready, we're criticizing mood. Ellie goes out hunting. Here she has Tommy's rifle with a scope, right, that she learned how to use from Joel. Love right. Very convenient hunting lesson that happened a little while ago. Love it. Does a great job. Clips a deer.

And then the deer dies shortly thereafter. I would not have made that shot. In the game, however, you're hunting with bow and arrow. So Mallory Rubin, how'd you do with your bow and arrow? Took me five shots. was one of the most anguish-inducing experiences of my life. As you know, I'm an animal lover. I actually, I've told you before, Joe, that Adam, my husband, who is a video game obsessive,

has been kindly and mostly sweetly sitting next to me to watch me play. He's been fascinated by my journey. And say he's, you know, he's offered up some critical commentary at times, but I have gotten a lot better over the last couple sessions. I'm really getting comfortable with the mechanics. This, I almost asked him to do this stretch because I, I didn't want to harm the animal, but I'm like, you know, I don't think Ellie wants to hurt a creature. This is, this is, you have to be immersed fully in the needs.

That deprivation that you cited earlier that Mason talked about, it's deprivation all around. The hunger is everywhere. The lack of medicine for Ellie and Joel, like these needs, these wants, these absolute urgent requirements. That's what's driving everybody's behavior. I did love before she went out when she looked at the rifle because like they're down to this literal, last shred of jerky. And she tears it in half and is like feverishly, ferociously nibbling on it because the need is that great, but still puts that little like nugget of it on his chest in case he wakes

and wants to gnaw on it. And I thought like, again, that that contrast is just so supreme because you do have this hunger in all respects. But then when I won't jump ahead, but like to in context, the contrast. You look at a plate like David's. Is it full of people? Yes. But it is heaping later at the meal.

And to see Ellie with this last morsel still share that with the other person in her life. Like, it's such a notable distinction. That is something I only caught on the second watch is that, yeah, everyone gets served up a little bit of Alex soup. But David's portion is much, much bigger than everyone else is. Huge. Yeah. Glutton. He is like glutton. And like, you know, Scott Shepard again.

as like a piece of casting, like there is something kind of haunted and hunted in his face, but he does not look as ragged as his congregation because he's not having to go without the way that they are. Yeah, exactly. The sustenance of his fellow Silver Lakeans. Joe, the other thing, though, I think about like that rifle, the question that you had, the bow versus the rifle. And it was interesting to hear them chat about filming this and actually needing like,

you know, Bella Ramsey needing to like hoist it. It just is, it's bigger than the character. You feel the literal weight of the burden and the need in that moment in a way that is like very effective as we're watching it. But like you mentioned already the lesson in episode six, Joel conceding finally teaching Ellie to Hunt after she had been asking what that shows us inside of episode six about the progress that they'd made this barrier they broke through. But it doesn't just feel here like this natural progression because the urgency is so severe and supreme. And so you think back to watching that lesson in episode six. And the humor and the charm, you know, deep, deep breath in, slow breath out. You squeeze the trigger like you love it.

Like they're making jokes. They're shooting at a target that says asshole on it. And this is so lonely and stark compared to that. And so you feel how dire things are. Well, what I love is that this is the world that they live in where everything can just like go to shit so quickly all the time. it in Kansas City. We see it. Like, we see it again and again and again. But, like, everyone's living on the knife edge. Like, you know, Jackson seems really cozy. They've got film knives and all or stuff like that. Except for the people who are dying on the knife sedge because they're being eaten

by their fellow. Yeah, except for those folks. All right. So James and David find the deer that Ellie has shot. And I think, wait, actually, to go back to your point about the heaviness of the rifle and it's in normity, I think, I think what this episode is really playing with back and forth is and I think the multiple references to Ellie's menstrual cycle throughout is playing with this idea of a woman on the verge, right? She's 14. And there are ways in which she's childlike and there's ways in which she's mature beyond her years. And, you know, David's proposition to her is repugnant. But what is also true is that like, you know, so when we see her, both the actors and the character struggling to hold this gun up.

We're like, that's just a child, right? But then when we see her not need to be rescued because she rescues herself, this is someone, you know, baptism of blood, a right of passage, you know, an evolution of a character. But again, it's just on that edge of progressing into adulthood and on an accelerated path because this is the harsh reality of where we live. So James and David find the deer and these pieces of shit are going to take. for themselves, obviously. Ellie sticks them up, makes her voice lower. Yeah. To try to, like, sort of intimidate that, you know, sound tough.

I had quite, okay, so when Bella Ramsey, who's doing a on-accent corner in general, Bella Ramsey, who is not an American young woman, is, like, crushing it. I think she's doing a really good job. Ditto for Buddy Boy sounded a little like she was a newsy. And I was like, why is this line here? And then I watched the play-through. I was like, oh, it's from the game. And when Ashley Johnson says that it doesn't sound as much like she's a newsy.

So I just, that's my honestly my only critique of the episode is ditto for Buddy Boy. And then she says Buddy Boy again. And I'm just sort of like, where did she get this? I think we should incorporate this in. I'm swinging the other way. Let's incorporate this into our recurring Ring Reverse and Prestige TV vernacular. Like if we're chatting with Carlos or Steve or Arjuna and we're saying something to one about the other. Let's just, let's start using buddy boy.

See how it feels. Buddy boy over here. Give it a go. And then if you ask for like a Zoom link, you don't get it on time. You can shout. I won't say it twice. Put one right between my eyes. Okay.

This is where I'm going to take a little detour into Lost Land because you know I love an opportunity to do so. David asked for 10 seconds of her time. Something like a little bit like a door to door salesman, right? He was a math teacher in a previous life, but he sort of sounds like he's selling vacuum cleaners or whatever. I was reminded there's a section one of the final seasons of lost, final season of lost, where it's like the man in black who is this elemental evil figure, if that's the way you view it, there's this whole thing of like, don't let him talk to you. As soon as you let him talk to you, it's already over. Like you've already lost, right?

And I've been rewatching Succession to like record these Hall of Fame podcasts. And like, that's, I keep thinking about that in terms of Logan Roy. Like, if Logan Roy gets to open his mouth around you, it's over. You're done. He's already won. And that's what it felt like when David's like, can I just have 10 seconds of your time? Like, no, don't let this dude talk to you. Put you under the spell, spew the poison.

Not even one word. And I love this. He wants her. He wants to possess her, is how, like, Drekman, amazing we're talking about her. Later, he talks about this idea of like shepherd and sheep, but the way they describe it here is that he's a wolf and he sees a fellow wolf in her. It's so apparent immediately in the request for 10 seconds, the second request for 10 seconds, especially in this world where the danger of anyone you might confront at any point is so deeply and innately understood by everyone. everyone, that most people would either flee or actively challenge, that this kind of ultimately like false diplomacy is an exceedingly rare thing. And we can see that David is a

character who operates even at gunpoint under a rifle scope with the confidence of a man who is used to always, always, always getting his way. And because of that is not only comfortable, but actually, as we'll, as we'll see really horrifically over the course of the episode, relishes. doing hideous things when he doesn't get his way. When Ellie calls him out on the cannibalism and he says it shames him, well, no, it doesn't. We see the relish with which he inhales the meat. And later, as he is attempting to rape her, he says that it's the fight he likes the most. Like, he wants a challenge.

Yeah. Yes. And it's, in this moment, it's a rhetorical challenge, right? It's a game. How can I get, I think, I think it was amazing who said this, this idea of like, he He doesn't want to pull these people. He wants to get them to lean in. And he did it before with James.

He will do it with Hannah where he'll reach his hand out, but he won't take her hand and make her reach up for him. He makes James sort of praise him or depend on him and all this sort of thing. And so this is his, this is his MO. I want to speak to you. Okay, so this is a little preview for next week. We are lucky enough to have, if all goes according to plan. And, you know, audio tapes don't catch on fire or something like that. Craig Mason and Neil Druckman will be on the show next week to have a little chat with us.

And that's really exciting. And something that Neil told me today when we record that is, A, he listens to the podcast. It's really nice to know. But B, he was like, he was like, you know how you and Mallory, basically, I'm paraphrasing, deeply paraphrasing Neil here. He's like, you and Mallory, like to talk about lone wolf and cub, right? He was like, this idea of Ellie as the cub is not quite right in this circumstance because it's like it's like lone wolf another wolf, right? Like, but there are some versions of the, you know, if you go back to that episode we did

about just the lone wolf and cub trope, that there are some versions of that story where the whole idea of lone wolf and cub is protect and maintain the innocence of the cub, right? I, the lone wolf, will throw myself on any sword in order to protect the innocence of this child. And then there are others, like the titular lone wolf and cub, like, comic, where the cub is complicit in all the things that are going on here. And so this idea of like wolf-recognized wolf, game-recognized game. And Ellie, certainly by the end of this episode, has lost whatever innocence was sort of, she was clinging to. And so I just thought that that was, I mean, first of all, thank you to Neil for listening to the podcast. But secondly, thanks, Neil. Yeah, that added, like,

Lone wolf and other wolf addendum to that. Oh, I love that because for a couple different reasons, it makes me think of a little show. I don't know if you've seen a Joe, Game of Thrones. Ah. The lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. And so when you move into becoming a wolf, it doesn't mean or it shouldn't necessarily mean isolation

and a solitary pursuit. You still have to be able to find that partnership, that family, that community, what is that us? And then what does it mean when your us faces off against another us? But also, thinking of Ellie, even if we think of her as a wolf, as a wolf who is on a coming of age journey and evolution in this really, really bleak, grim, dark context. And so when David tells her that they're from this large group and, you know,

he's trying to on the one hand, earn her pity and stay her hand by bringing up the women and the children, but also trying to scare her by saying it's a larger group, right? We can again see all of the manipulative tactics on display here. The way that she says,

I'm from a large group too. Also hungry. She's holding this massive rifle. She's in control and theory in that moment. She seems so young to me when she shouts that. So, so, so young. Like what can I hold on to

to try to make sure that this is okay. And then you feel that desperation even more fully when he offers up this idea of the trade, you know, do you need boots? Medicine. Like for infections, like asking these monsters, even though we don't totally yet know the full extent of the monstrous existence,

for a lifeline. And she told them to go. She told them she wouldn't ask twice. When there is a glimmer of hope, just a glimpse of a pathway to help. She is willing to engage only and specifically for Joel. For Joel. Because it is a chance to save him.

It is a chance to do that thing that Riley said to her at the end of episode seven. Like you hold on to that last minute for as long as you can. You do whatever you can to keep trying and keep fighting. You know, and that's echo back down later in the episode, right, when David's talking to her and he's like, you know, And Ellie says that Joel did what he did to protect himself. And he's like, no, he's protecting you. And you know that. You know that.

We should say, you know, James goes off to get the penicillin. It's not code. It's not code, James. Just can't get it. Dude, you know what I loved about this? In addition to it just being, again, a wonderfully performed sequence. It made me think of our beloved Marlon and Florence from the beginning of episode six and that, like, were somewhere here exactly where and your answer?

Better be the same as your wife's. Did you tell them the truth? Yeah. Are you telling me? the truth exchange. Like, I just love this idea that shorthand and codes and private languages are so prevalent amid the equally prevalent mistrust that, like, anyone who cross paths has to assume that the other person is trying to deceive and outsmart them. You actually have to say that's not what this is. You have to say that out loud. I cannot wait to get to, Joel, can't read a

fucking map corner with you later. Oh, man. My favorite corner. We visited a lot. Yeah. All right. So we should say another adaptive choice from the game to the show here is there's a sequence in which Ellie and David have to fight off some infected in the game. Yes. And this bonds. Including a bloater. Oh. That's very upsetting, Mallory. But I did it.

That was not in my, that was, I'm so proud of you. Thanks. That was not in my play through that I was watching. That's disgusting. Anyway. So, so you naturally bonded to someone who you fought, you know, tooth and nail to survive with. right? The decision throughout this season to strip out a lot of the mushroom zombies is something that, you know, we're going to want to go back and look at the pattern of it, maybe all

when we talk about the finale. But there have been, even from what I've seen in the cinematic playthrues of the game, you're basically constantly shooting at zombies, like constantly, or Molotov cocktailing them or shiving them or whatever it is you're doing, right? And I think, and we'll maybe talk about this. Well, we'll definitely talk about this again at the end of the episode. But I think to strip out some of the mushroom zobitude means that those acts of violence and specifically the acts of violence of human-on-human violence hits harder because you're not inured to just, you know, you're not constantly spraying bullets and that sort of stuff.

And so on the one hand, yeah, no cordisps here. There were no cordyceps at the university last, you know, like they're, I kind of missed the mesh network in some ways. But in other ways, like, I think it, you know, it helps the impact, the overall impact of the story. When someone chooses to be violent here, it, it means that much more. Does that make sense? Absolutely.

Yeah. And I think that obviously, like the, the cortisps, the infection, the actual inciting incident for the fall of civilization, the fall of man, this apocalyptic existence is important. Facing the infected is important. Never getting comfortable is important. But I think that has been one of the central through lines of the season. You already mentioned it in the fire lesson. Why am I going to tell you you can't do that?

People. This idea that other people can be the most dangerous thing. And then within that, like, what are the, I love what you're saying about the stakes that you feel there, but like also what are the depths that people can sink to when they think that any decision they make is okay, when they think that there's a justification for anything they do because they're living in the mushroom apocalypse. And then if everybody starts to think that way, then how can you ever hope to build another Jackson again? And how can you rebuild the world if you only have one Jackson?

So I think that it's like a really smart choice. You know, it's always fun when they're facing down against the infected. I'd love to see it. You know, shout out our episode five bloater and ripping off Perry's head. What a time that was. It's an incredible episode of television. My God. But when we see...

Fast zombie Nana. Dude. RIP to a real one. Fast zombie Nana. You should trademark that along with a wig watch with Joanna Robinson. But like, you know, when you're seeing these people face off against each other, I don't miss. I love when the infected are there, but I don't miss them when they're not. Because I think also those, again, those like thematic, those thematic contrasts really are heightened when we're looking at the set.

human beings making different choices for what they think are the same reasons. And that's me, I mean, another, another thing that you and I historically respond to is, you know, conversations in elegant rooms, two people setting down having a chat, right? So David and I have a little. Yeah. Yeah. Just, you know, if an elegant room is a, you know, a wind-torn shack with a dead deer carcass and a fire in between. And, like, now it's safe to build a fire, right?

the strangers are already here so might as well have a fire and keep warm right the smoke is not going to attract anyone that isn't already know that she's there the deer in the firelight that shot of the deer in the firelight and there's a lot there's a ton of really beautiful shots in this really scary episode but like there's like a savage beauty to it

I really think it's a Josiah preview and I'm just so excited to talk about Josiah's face with you but we look we get like a huge we get a huge expositional download from David about Exodus from the Pittsburgh QZ. Oh, we got an email that I'm not going to read, but like someone was like that, I think it was the Eagles.

No, who plays in Pittsburgh? Philadelphia, the Steelers. I think this is about the Eagles. Anyway, moving on. They were mid-tier that year? Who knows? In 2003? Anyway.

Wow. Joanna really tried to talk about some worse and just fucking fell in her face. It's like we're riding on horse back and you're asking about fourth downs. It's like I tried to chase a rabbit and fell on my face in the snow. Anyway. That looked like it hurt, by the way. Those ice particles grated against your cheek. David's lie about finding God.

David talking about how they left the exodus from the Pittsburgh QZ and were just gathering followers as they went. Right. There's no such thing as luck. Everything happens for a reason. And then the shoe drops on the Alex. story. And I just think, again, David is a monstrous creep. Yes. But also fascinating and very smart and interesting to watch. And this hits one of our favorite, you know, the way he tells the story. We've seen the story from our point of view what happened at the university campus, right?

He says, you know, this guy had a daughter, right? A father. Turns out he was murdered by this crazy man. So this is primo to the monster's We're the Monsters territory that we talk about that line from Station 11, or this idea, this continued idea of in an us versus them, who is the us and who is the them? Now, David happens to be an absolute disgusting psychopath pedophile. But in general, in any confrontation you're having out in the world where you're just trying to survive, you might kill someone who has a daughter named Hannah who wears a Henley. you know what I mean?

Like that this is the point of you and you have to think about that every single time. And like you're thinking about, I mean, it's like in every other situation because there's some versions of this story, a version of the story where everywhere Joel and Ellie goes, that civilization topples. And it's sort of like they're this monstrous force going through. It's not quite what happens here. Like they're not responsible what happened with Bill and Frank. Jackson still seems to be standing. So it's sort of like at every other thing. like Kansas City, however, I wouldn't say that that's their fault,

but maybe it wouldn't have happened that way without them. And then, you know, Silver Lake, hopefully will be better for the lack of David. But like, you know. I mean, no one else in Silver really came to check on the fire. So I feel like they've all just, I don't know, maybe they're like sitting in a knitting circle or something. I really hope this one was like, oh my God, the lodge or Tom's barbecue, whatever it is. That's on fire. And someone's like, yeah, but it's only David in there.

I hope David's in there. Pass some Alec. Yeah. I hope they're having a book club. David's like, guess I'm out of the book club. All right. Apocalyptic book club would be great. That would be the one really nice thing about the apocalypse. Lots of time to read. Lots of time to read, Joe. I love this idea of like the stranger and trust and the way that David is, you know, I naturally thought of the same to the monsters where the monster Station 11 line that you did and that we've been bringing up. When he says it's hard to trust strangers, I know, but honestly, I mean you know harm. Well, the second part of that is not true, but the first part is. And that question that keeps recurring, how do you know when it's okay to put down the ladder the way that Bill did for Frank? How do you know?

And it wouldn't be right to do it here. But if that fear stopped you all the time, then Maria never invites Tommy into Jackson. They don't build a family together. Bill obviously doesn't lower the ladder for Frank. Henry, instead of seeing what Joel does and following him and trying to build a pact, fears him and avoids him at all costs. And they can't make it out of the city together. Now, things didn't go swimmingly from there.

But, like, people like David or why no one wants to lower a ladder in this world anymore, much more so than the infected. That gets back to your point earlier, I think, about, like, how scary it is when you see the people go, go head to head here. And then you have that entwined here with the way that he talks about faith and like amassing this following, amassing this members, the members of his flock. And you can imagine that for many people in this Cortexap's apocalypse, I think there would be a lot of people who turned to faith after something horrific to try to find comfort or to try

to understand. And then I think there would be many, many people who turned away from faith, who could not believe in a higher power that would allow something like this to happen. And to think about David, again, is like the deity is the cortisps and himself as someone who tries to emulate the cordyceps and God, the Bible, religion, these organizing principles that he just uses to control, to watch his recruitment pitch, even though we understand across the episode that he's targeting Ellie in a very different way than he does other people, is magnanimous. genetically appalling, but that magnetism is what sucks Ellie in, too.

And that's, like, she's interested in the story as he's telling it in real time to the point where James gets the drop and is behind her with the gun. Great writing. Yeah. Great moment. Great performance from Scott Shepard in this role. Just real, I love a little creep, right? And he's kind of, he's a big creep, but, like, you know, I love a well-played creep.

I like the idea, too, that, like, you can't escape the danger for long. Because you remember when they were leaving Jackson and Tommy told them how dangerous the road was? And then they get to East Colorado and they're like, easy days. Ellie says easy days, right? And Joel's like, there's still time to find out. Like, let's hit pause on that. And so to come back here in this same place in Colorado to see the dangers, I mean, at the campus with Alec and the attack, now here with David and his followers, to see the way that you're never, you think for a minute you're a way. Okay, and that's when the danger comes.

Okay. I need to do justice to our listener and Mark because I bungled his sports reference, so I'm just going to drop this. He's basically talking about how it was the David's congregation sort of fell for this shit, right? And he's saying this episode stands out well executed, although I want to ask the Silver Laker disciples, didn't any of you read under the banner of heaven, what the fuck? If they, as written, left the Three Rivers area and the beleaguered Pittsburgh franchises,

Okay. The Pirates, Pittsburgh Pirates, baseball. The pirates were middle of the pack in 2003. Were there not some Barnes and Nobles around in the dust or libraries? Sad. Anyway, Mark is all for a post-apocalypse book club and he's like, let's start with Under the banner. What did you think of David's saying I can protect you to Ellie of all people because of how central the idea of protection has been to her journey? Like I loved that moment. He's trying to, he's, I love the way that he says, he talks about Joel, not knowing Joel. But like, just latches on, oh, he needs medicine, like, you know. Call him dad here and friend later. Yeah. And just sort of like, I can slide into that.

Oh, your protector is dying in need of some fucking penicillin, which, I mean, the silver lakers have nothing to eat, but I'm glad they have some penicill. Yeah. Yeah. In abundance, I have to imagine if they're giving up two vials of it. Yeah. Whole vials. Joel could not look pastier, right?

As Ellie jabs, the penicillin right in the wound, question mark. I love this, but she's like, where? And I would have the same question. And I would also do the same thing that she did, which is just like, right where it's all red and swollen and infected, I guess. A health pack. Health back for Joel. Here we go. Crafted a health kit.

Holden in R2. I do have one more note for Ellie, though. She goes to sleep on his chest, like shoulder chest. So sweet. Which is probably not good for his air. Like, he's wheezing. I'm not sure it's great for his air for. notes. So darling.

In the game, Ellie sleeps on the ground next to him, not snuggled into his shoulders slash chest. But the way that Pedro as Joel just subtly tilts his head towards her like unconsciously sort of drawn to her, this is like real Grogu snuggling in his dad's lap, like energy and and Dinger and just slightly moving his hand. to sort of like... Nusshole and growing. Oh, my name. So it was absolutely wonderful

and heart melting and just so darling. And it made me think also of... It's been a minute since we saw Joel snuggle. And that was in episode one in the 2003 timeline with Sarah, with his daughter,

on the couch. And I think this would have been very impactful and powerful and moving no matter when we saw it, but to get it actually on the heels of that, I can protect you line from David and making us think of, how Joel and David both present themselves as protectors, but for Joel, that's like the true

religion, actually. And for David, it's just this tool, this way to control and leverage. And then we get this absolute, like you said, almost just involuntary tenderness. It's just very, very, very, very, very sweet. Very sweet. Just like, you know, if he had mouth tendrils, they'd be yearning for her. But he doesn't. Snoring, gasping during. sleep, feeling fatigue, ask your doctor about Zepbound, terseptite. The first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and adults with obesity. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical

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Back at the Silver Lake Sunday School and Spa. It's meal time. It's chow time, right? We got a bin of beautiful, well marbled meat. And a character named Joyce, who I think from context clues, is Alex's wife, Hannah's mother. Hannah's mom. And she's cooking with our pal Josiah. And they ask what it is, and they are told it is Venice.

and nobody seems convinced. Not a one. Not a single person actually believes. Also, they're down to their last few cans of tomatoes. I mean, it's one thing to eat your own dead when you've got stewed tomatoes. It's another thing entirely when you've run out. When you just have, like, thin broths to cover the taste. Someone was asking why the bowls of meat looks so red.

They were like, is that blood? No, it's stewed tomatoes. Congratulations. I've never heard you make that. noise. All right. Uh, um,

um, so Hannah tells David that they should kill Ellie out of, out of, you know, vengeance, right? Um, and he back hands her.

And if we weren't already creeped out by him, this is like, in theory, David has done nothing to ping our radar. Uh, yet, right? Until he's brutally hits a grieving daughter.

And then he, uh, and then he offers her his hand and he says, this absolutely, uh, repulsive reviling thing. You will always have a father and you'll show him respect when he's speaking. Yikes.

Yikes. Yikes. This was horrifying. Yeah. Absolutely horrifying. This whole sequence. And then this is actually right after that. The thing that struck me, obviously, in addition to the actual slap and the way that David

positions himself, his actions, was watching everyone else in the room. You know, Joyce springs up. She stands. We hear some gasps. but nobody actually does anything. And to stop it, to intercede. And actually the opposite, when David, it takes just a gesture for Joyce to,

whatever reflex led her to stand to sit back down. And it's not just let's sit back down. It's here's your heaping. This is the gluttonous section where he gets the giant, giant plate of meat as everybody else is just scraping. Don't say Alex. Say what you put in the dock.

I said Alec Burgagnol. I don't think you puts stewed tomatoes and burguaniels, so I don't want anyone to call me out from my culinary podcast. This is a podcast about the last of us. Again, I was struck here, much like in the protector moment of the really stark contrast between David and Joel. In many obvious ways, but also some subtler ones. Like, you think about Joel well before he and Ellen. Ellie have bonded, the beginning of episode three, we're coming off Tess's death and he's eating in the woods. And he almost like, with resentment, tosses her part of his food, but he tosses it to her. When he and Ellie are with Henry and Sam, they've already lost their truck full of supplies. They've got their packs. They've got what's on them. And they still offer it up. They still share it with Henry and Sam. And Henry makes note of how like rare and meaningful that is. So Joel is, a violent person, Joel is a

often a very introspective person, but he is a provider and a nurturing, caring person who is willing to share and build with others even when it's hard. That is not who David is. Well, I think Joel is that conditionally, and he's becoming that a bit more, right? Ellie's bringing it out in him.

But that's not who he was when we met him with tests, right? I don't, I think, if he and Tess met Henry and Sam, he would not have helped Henry and Sam at all. It's interesting to think about, like, how, yeah, how much of this is something that Ellie and that particular relationship have unlocked from or allowed to resurface inside of him after he had buried those, those tendencies for so long. Right, because, because, you know, when we first meet Joel with Sarah, et cetera, um, he has this relationship with his neighbors. Like he does, you know, he is joking about trying to avoid going over there, right? But like, but he's still like, Sarah, you should go over there. Like, we should have a relationship with our neighbors. He's neighborly, right?

All right. I'm not going to read out this whole email we got from McKenna, who's also a listener who identifies as a person of faith because we've covered a lot of these beats. But I do want to say that just to reiterate sort of what you said at the top when McKenna wrote in Christian tradition, God is often referenced as a father. So when David says, you will always have a father. We expect him to follow up with a reference to God the father. instead by recognizing himself as a father,

he makes himself the hero of the story. It's a cult, not a congregation. Back in the hovel, right? Joel is still not doing well. Ellie is like, I don't know, another shot. Health PAC 2.0. Again, I have no notes for Ellie here. This is what I would do.

I mean, it's a good thing that she got the second injection in because Joel's rapid healing is pretty important the rest of the way. Just two shots in like half of a. half a night of fitful rest and you're you're good to go my guy um Ellie does some smart again like all on her own but but making some smart choices she sees the bird she sees the birds fly up and she knows that people are coming um you know she gives Joel the knife the best she can do right she gets on the horse she think you know i'll draw them off all this sort of stuff my beloved callus very sad how how do you reconcile your um affection for Troy Baker with what uh James does

in shooting a horse. I love Troy. I love Callis. James should get a meat cleaver to the neck for what he did to Calus. And guess what? He does. He does. I love the setting here.

I keep talking about how run down these suburbs are. But like I love that it's happening in like suburb. We haven't really been to suburbia, I think. Right. Jackson isn't that in Kansas City. We're in the city, right? Like, where David and his people are, that's like a resort that they have taken over. But these are the suburbs.

And so like these sort of dilapidated ranchackle, sort of prototypical American neighborhood, this horror is happening here in these horrifying houses. James, this is really interesting because we got a lot of emails about like, is James so intent on killing Ellie because he knows David is a creepy pedophile? and wants to like spare her from that. But what I thought was interesting listening to the official podcast is that Troy Baker is like James is a threatened by Ellie. He's David's number two and he sees Ellie as a as a threat to his position as number two. Yeah.

So that's why he is, it's not out of the, I'll put her out of her misery. It's a this, this, this girl could replace me. Yeah. And it was interesting too in this stretch because I think that there's a very natural. way, Chris and Andy talked about this on the watch, actually, to compare David and Kathleen as different versions of leaders, would-be leaders we meet across the season. But in this stretch here, James and Kathleen were the characters I was comparing because James is the one who says when they're strolling before the horrific callous shot sequence and sending Ellie into concussion

protocol. He says, he's talking about the idea of like mercy, David's mercy. And it's not mercy. We know that, right? We know what it really is. But when he says, you know, there's just one more mouth to feed. And David says, if we leave her out here, she'll die. What's James' response? Yeah, well, maybe that's God's will. And I mean, it was so powerfully recalled Kathleen saying, well, kids die, Henry.

They die all the time. You contrast moments like that and ideas like that to test saying to Joel at the end of episode two, save who you can save. And which characters are in that frame of mind And which characters are in the kids die all the time, Henry, frame of mind? And what does that tell us about? I'll be really interested to revisit that idea of Safe Who You Can Save What You Can Save when we talk. About the season as a whole and just everyone's larger philosophy around that. We had an incredible email from Amanda that both Mallory and I identified as something that we were thrilled to receive.

So I'm going to read it in full, even though it's a little long. Amanda Rodan, I kept thinking about these talismans that you mentioned in episode seven, what we carry with us in a world where we have so little. Throughout the season, I've been fixated on Ellie's backpack. For one, it's such a fascinating object. It has little pins and the monster key chain, which I like to think, even after 20 years, into the apocalypse, that teenagers are still personalizing their things. This object contains the key to Ellie's survival, but also her joy.

It has the pun book that Riley gave her. their receipt paper photographs, even down to her switchblade and firearm. The blade she's relayed on since episode one. During the episodes in Kansas City where Joel and Ellie were ambushed, they lost all the supplies they got from Bill and Frank, R-IP, Joel's coffee. But the bag was always on Ellie's back, even when she's crawling under cars and dodging infected. In episode eight, when she's thrown off the horse and carried off by David and his crew, I was not only panicked for Ellie, but for her bag and all of the objects inside. Joel has lost his bag a few times throughout the season. but the only talisman that he carries with him

is the watch from his daughter and he wears it on his body. Everything that Joel carries is necessary for their survival. What Ellie carries is some of the last few things that connect her back to Riley and her past life in Boston. This is, she's going to mention something

that happens later in the episodes, but she says, so seeing Joel struggling in the snow carrying both his bag and Ellie's made me so emotional. To me, it further signified the growth in Joel over his protection of Ellie. It extended over to her things. and the hope that he'll still find her alive. I've never played the game,

but I know that you have to scavenge and collect stuff as part of a gameplay, but it also makes me wish we could see what's in Joel in Ellie's bag as part of the show. I'm also interested in what they carry and what sorts of objects they would have or choose to carry across the country.

Incredible, incredible email. I love that. And I think what's cool is that we are seeing what's in the pack, as noted in the email, piece by piece, like when we're meant to. As we get to know the characters. Yeah, because then it hits it. Like when we know that the photo

is there that hits us so much more than if we had just seen it at the beginning. And, you know, this beautiful email made me think back to a moment in the game where in the Jackson sequence, Tommy offers Joel a photo of Joel and Sarah that he had found. And Joel doesn't take it. Because like, what does it mean to carry these things with you? It means that you believe that life is worth living, that there's a future, that there's something worth holding on to, that you can open your heart again, that it's a good thing to try to do that. And that's a beautiful thing, but it's a dangerous thing. And it makes you vulnerable to suffering that same loss and pain again. And so the fact that, again, like, I think this connects to what we were talking about a few minutes ago,

actually, this is something that Ellie is unlocking in Jolie. In Jolie. And Jol, this would not be his inclination or his tendency, just like the way that she has become the protector and the caregiver is because of him. Like, they are bringing out these changes in each other. And so when we get a moment, like the one we'll talk about at the end of the episode, it is that much more impactful and meaningful because of that, because they are on a shared journey of shared evolution. David carries her off in his arms in a, like, really awful perversion of Joel having

Sarah and his arms in the first episode and also of, like, a bridal carry. Like, it's just, it's really upsetting. And now is the time We talk about Josiah Josiah who comes for Joel Joel's not on the mattress Right? His blood is

He's hanging in stealth Ready to press triangle Grab, stab, I loved it This is by the way In the game you do switch And now you are playing as Joel again But you're moving back and forth For the next stretch

You alternate between playing As both of them Which is very cool The In the official podcast Maizen and Druckman credit the director of the episode, Ali Abasi, for making sure this fight is as a sad desperation is the vibe of the day here.

Josiah's face, I just, like, I wrote horrible in all caps twice in the dock and I didn't delete the second time. I was like, it deserves too. It is scarring. It is horrifying. And I think it's, I mean, and then I think I just reordered this a little bit. So we just talked about all the Joel stuff rather than. cutting back and forth, but like the follow-up when he gets his hands on Marco and Timothy,

the other two beardos who are out in the suburbs here, right? I was reminded of the film Prisoners with Hugh Jackman, which is another story about a father driven to desperation trying to find his child and who has a character played by Paul Dano, like, chained up in a bathroom and just beats the absolute life out of him. and this is what I was reminded of in this sequence when Joel is not only extracting the information from these guys, but I think we're getting in the way that Josiah dies here and in the way he interacts with Marco and Timothy, we're getting that view of the bad guy that Maria warned Ellie about, who Joel was the bad things that he did.

And like the justifications of the bad things is I'm doing these bad things because, yeah, apprehending these guys who are trying to kill you, sure. Getting information for them, sure. But he kills them in a way that, you know, they point out he didn't have to, right? He didn't have to kill Marco. Marco told him the truth. He didn't have to kill Timothy, but he did. Just because, you know what I mean?

That's what we're saying here. I thought this was a really important scene for a lot of the reasons we've talked about all season, including the one you were just hinting at, I think, with the let's interrogate at the end of the season. That's save you can save idea. you know, where does that lead you? That gets back to Joe, the idea of like the us versus them, the tribes, that, that we talked about this a lot in our episode five pod and, and referred to many of the really illuminating and insightful Mason and Druckman quotes about this idea like, is my, does my kids' life matter

more than yours? Does my mother's? Is my brothers, et cetera, right? And, you know, Joel, we've always understood and have understood increasingly episode after episode as we've learned more about his past in addition to seeing him in the present day, that Joel is a character who's capable of, like, supreme violence, not common violence. But we see a different level of savagery here. And you can say it as a mama.

Yeah. Like, you can tell that this is, you understand that this is not a thing that he would do unless it, unless it was for this reason, unless it was defined. Ellie. And so, like, Joel is our hero. He's one of our heroes. He's one of our protagonists. but that the answer to that question like is my person worth more than your person?

Does saving my person justify any action I can take? Like it doesn't always endear us to him and it's not supposed to. It's not like a pure good when he does a thing like this. We're supposed to interrogate what the what the reasons and what the fallout are. It's a very intense thing to discuss and so it's not an appropriate time to say this, but I will just say this is the map corner again. We get a recurrence of the Marlon Florence, you know, test doesn't actually play it with the second person, as you noted. Having Timothy mark the spot on the map with his own blood on a knife tip that was embedded in his kneecap is just astonishing stuff.

I would not put a knife in the mouth of my foe as I leaned in to have them pointed toward me. But that is how sure Joel is that he's about to decimate these people. people. And, like, again, I think it's so interesting to have the two of them there. It reminds me of, I didn't think that in my life I would ever reference this film in the year 2023. But in the film, Johnny DeMonic, like, this weird thing happened where, like, one of the henchmen dies and the other henchmen, and they just don't bother to, like, make these characters. But one of the henchmen dies and the other henchmen goes, no!

And it's like this bizarre moment of, like, you know, to the monsters were the monsters. So to Marco and Timothy, this guy killed Alec. And now, and Josiah. And now he's killing them. And I'm not on the team. I'm not on Team Beardot. Marco and Timothy seem like they're in the inner circle. So they definitely know what's on the menu.

You know what I mean? But like, but Joel. Okay. All right. Back at the Silver Lake Slaterhouse and Ski Shelae. Ellie wakes up in a cage. This is my favorite one. This is my favorite name.

Ellie Wicks in the cage. Totally, totally normal. I want to reference. I want to reference Lost again and say My pal, Katie Rich of any fair fame, texted me to be like, does David remind you of Benjamin Linus?

And I don't know if it's just like for waking up in Cage reasons. This is a lost. It's a reference to the television series Lost. You should watch it. In terms of David being, I want to hear your thoughts,

but just in terms of David being like persuasive, almost charismatic, but a little bit of a creep. But he's a lot. I just think he's creepier than Ben is. Ben looks good in comparison to David as far as I'm concerned. What do you think of that comp, though?

Yeah, I like it. I think the extent of the hubris, too, is a compelling comp. Interestingly, though, and to be clear, not in a good way, but a way where I was like, how dare you invoke the words of our beloved Jora Mormon? I was thinking of Jora in this stretch because one of the things that he says to Ellie is you can't survive on your own. No one can, which made me think of Jora and Danny in season two. No one can survive in this world without help. No one. Let me help you. Please tell me how. I'm like, how dare you bastardize the words of Bear Island, especially when speaking to a Mormon.

And this is how dare you, but this is like a scene about trust and need. And when you think of need and the way that that then influences somebody's hold on power, that's a very Ben Linus thing. Like how does your insecurity manifest and control over others? I like that. And how can I easily identify your vulnerability and manipulate it? Right. And so, um, listen, times are tough. Things get sloppy.

Sometimes you leave an ear behind when you butcher a person. Before the year, if I woke up in a cage in front of a butcher's block and the butcher's block was in front of a wall of knives and cleavers, I'd be very nervous. And are there posters of human anatomy or is it animal anatomy on the wall? It's probably animal anatomy. Yeah, we're in a steakhouse, right? This is a butcher shop. But yeah, the ear.

It's tough. So there's this moment, right? The word, where David, she's looking at the ear. He looks at her. He looks at the ear. He knows she knows. And I was reminded, I don't know if you were, but I was reminded of that moment in Ant-Man Quantumania where in Kang's like, oh, shit, Janet knows I'm a bad guy.

You touch my neural relationship. Yeah. So David's like, oh no, my purchasing relationship with this child is ruined, who I threw in a cage, is ruined because now she knows I'm also a cannibal in addition to being a benefile. I don't know that she's actually fully figured out that yet. There's this great moment where it seems like she does. But then David has his violent heart speech that we talked about a little bit earlier. the violent heart clip that played at the start of this episode is missing the part where he calls her a natural leader. And I thought that was really interesting since we just heard her call a natural leader.

Right. By Fedra. So what is it with these like bad guys calling Ellie a natural leader? What do you say about that? I'm chuckling because I'm thinking of our beloved colleague and pal Chris Ryan saying on the watch. I don't know why these like, some paraphrasing me. why these guys think Ellie is Andrew Luck, which is another football reference that slayed me.

I was in stitches listening to that. I know you had the same reaction, Joe. You were like, yeah, Andrew Locke. I was like, I've got some thoughts. Another luck joke. I can't, I can't. I can't wait to talk about Stanford and the Indianapolis cults. Yes, the fact that the people who are saying that,

it's a federal leader, and it's this horrific monster, that's alarming. And particularly, I think, characters who are presenting themselves as actors, as good actors, right? And then telling themselves and other people, I'm good. David will shout later in this episode,

you don't know how good I am. Like, for that to be a person who says this to you is deeply disturbing. One of the greatest lines and deliveries of all time. Next time, Steve gives us a note on runtime. I won't shout that at him. Well, you say, you don't know how good we are. You don't know how good we are.

Buddy boy. Buddy boy. Yeah. Yeah. Carlos, by the way, who edits this post. Never, never, never from Carlos. Yeah. He's one of the good ones.

All right. So anyway, this idea of the violent heart, this, like, there's some, you know, Ellie in the cage, some of a lot of this interaction is lifted directly from the game, but this violent heart stuff is added. And this, you know, so Mason says the official. podcast. As much as we love her, Ellie, we need to be scared of her. That's interesting to me. We've received many emails. I haven't read them because I wasn't sure how to talk about them in like a non-spoiler way. But we received many emails from listeners who love the game, who've played

the game, who were confused by this aspect of Ellie as, you know, that sort of like lust when she watches Joel kills someone in the first episode. And again, and again, this idea of Ellie being attracted to violence or Ellie's interest in violence, this feels like a radical character departure for a lot of people who are writing into our podcast. I don't know if this is a general feeling for people who play the game. I think it's interesting. Again, it goes back to that sort of lone wolf and wolf idea. Because I don't know all that happens in Ellie's future, I don't know what this means we need to be scared of her.

but it feels like something that Mazin likes to do, which is lay track. So we the viewers are not going to be surprised by twist and turns that are to come. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. I like also what he said,

a beat or two later in the pot. He said, you know, she has a violent heart, but she also has a beautiful heart. Ellie has both kinds of love within her. And I like both Ellie and Joel as manifestations of that idea, the relationship, they're us as a manifestation of that idea.

Like which choice do you make, which direction? does that take you? You know, Ellie has been drawn to Joel. We've talked about this a lot because, you know, think of that first scene with Marlene, like how this idea of them being capable of, like, what are they capable of? Well, they're capable of violence, but violence means survival in this world. And that's something that she is, she is drawn to and finds attractive because she wants to learn how that can be a part of her life, right? Like, where does that take you? Well, but on the one hand, but on the other hand, her wholesale rejection of Jackson, like, obviously, like, again,

Mel and I don't know what happens in the future So if Jackson has some sort of rot at the center of it We don't know So like as far as we know This is an example Let us live in this beautiful moment in our commune Dreaming of Bacon and sipping whiskey This is an example of a communist ideal

And Ellie is just like You know Fuck your movie night We just insert a sound plate of Hank Pim here Talking about I know so socialism Yeah Touching a subject

Oh Ellie doesn't want movie night She doesn't want a haircut she doesn't want maternal kindness from Maria, she doesn't want any of that, you know, and she's rejecting this idea of, like, uh, that she could be a girl in a room writing in her diary about boys and skirts and stuff like that, right? And so, but that is presented at least in the example of Jackson as a way to survive and not only survive, but thrive, uh, in this world. And Ellie's not interested because she's had this taste of this other kind of survival from

Jolin latched on to that. So I don't know that it's just like pure. This is the only way to survive is to be violent, but she's decided that this is the kind of survival she's interested in. And who can blame her when this, you know, pivotal moment in her life with losing Riley. Exactly. What if she had been just a little bit more capable with her knife? I'm not judging her. She was a child. She didn't know what she, you know, she did her best.

She did a great job. Way better than I would have, I would have been super gone because he would just torn my head off, not just bit me, right? But like if she had been just a little bit faster, just a little bit more capable, could she have protected Riley from what happens to Riley? And so I don't blame her for that instinct, but I don't know that it's like the only way being presented to her. I agree with that completely. And I don't, again, we don't know where the story's going. I don't think that the show is ultimately going to say that's the only way to live.

I would be really surprised by that. My assumption is that we're watching our favorite thing, Joanna Robinson. a character on an arc, and that Ellie learning to let life in, you know, to not be afraid of movie night or connection.

And even in Jackson, I think the Riley point is a great one. It's what popped into my head, too. Like, if you got a taste of that and you suffered the worst thing that had ever happened to you, would you feel safe letting yourself experience that or fall into that again? But

It, like, in Jackson, the context is also one of loss, loss of a different nature. She's worried from the second she watches Tommy and Joel embrace that she maybe is losing her place in their us. So so much of it is about the context. Losing her place in their us, but unwilling, you know, Maria is like open arms trying to welcome her into an us, right? And she doesn't want Joel. But Maria doesn't want Joel in that us.

So it would be the same thing. It's like a distinction without a difference if they're not together for her. But she's for her. But she's saying like, I don't want to be part of this other us. I got my us. And it comes with some violence and I'm pretty interested. The new jacket, movie night. Sign me up.

It seems great. Oh, yeah. I'd be like, Joel, get over yourself. Yeah. Okay. I love this moment. Even before I understood that it was directly lifted from the game when I first watched the episode, the moment where he puts his hand on hers and she gives out this little O.

Like the shoe drops, right? This is, again, it's lifted. This is, like, exactly what Ashley Johnson does in the game. But it is this incredible little moment of absolute... I understand what this sicko wants. Horror, but it's played so quietly. Then we get something louder, which is her breaking us fucking fingers. And then we get, speaking of Thrones, a line lady Elena would be proud of.

Tell them, Ellie is the little girl who... broke your fucking fingers. I want them to know it was me. Oh my God. Do you think Circe's watching? Oh, yeah. Every Sunday with a goblet of wine, you know? Just swirling and swillin.

Okay. Joel's on the move. Blizzard conditions. Pedro Pascal talked in the after episode about how he was being humbled by wind machines. Yeah. Very funny. I find some pack, as we mentioned.

And then Ellie, Ellie pulls all seems to be lost for Ellie. And then she pulls this little I'm infected gambit. And again, okay. Andrew Luck reference or not. Natural born leader, Ellie, she's smart. She's smart and resourceful. And she doesn't panic. Power doesn't panic as we learned from Andor of Mallory.

She's not panicking in the situation. She figures out how to get out of there. You know what I mean? this is not only like having your wits about you, strategy, intellect, inventiveness, ingenuity. It's turning something someone else is telling you as a weakness into a strength. All season long, we've heard if a single person sees that, they're going to shoot you on site without asking you a single question. And so for that to be the thing that buys her time that allows her to escape is just remarkable. Like these are the little choices the show makes that I think just elevate it to another level.

As you mentioned, Justice for the horse. The story makes, I should say, because as you know, that's from the game. The horse, my beloved Callis, just left there on the floor. But Callis's revenge is a cleaver to James's neck. And I'm just obsessed with the way that Troy Baker talked about this in the after episode. Because he was essentially, I'm burling it down to this. Twas an honor to die by her hand, essentially. Like, he's just like, what a moment for Ellie.

What a moment for me to be a part of. It's just really sweet. just, Troy, big fan. I don't think he listens to this podcast. Anyway, here's another question I have, okay? If you are chasing, I don't want to put you in this mind space,

but let's say you're chasing a little girl who you once wanted to marry, but now you want to kill. And she knocks over some fire in a main building in your complex. Do you go and keep chasing her? Or do you make some attempt? to put the fire out

while chasing her. Now, I will say that in the game, as far as I understood it through the playthrough that I watched, it's sort of like obscure, like, you're crouching. You love a crouching, you're crouching, you're crawling, something like that. The way in which David just completely ignores the fire is sort of less obvious in the playthrough than it is

here in this scene where he just kind of looks at it and then keeps going. What's go, take me inside David's mind. What is he thinking? Gladly, yeah. My favorite place to be. Here's the journey I went on with this. In both the show and the game,

like the game, the interesting thing about the game too is like, and you see this in the show, you have to, you don't have the level of weaponry that you're accustomed to throughout the games. You have to use your environment. You've got to go pick up a bottle,

a brick, distract him and then stab him from behind, etc. So as you're navigating the flames, they're on your mind. I think that like initially it's, yeah, your compulsion watching is,

why would this guy not try to get out of there or trying to put out the fire or do something, I ended up liking it because it made me, it made me again think of Kathleen and the fact that she's taken down by that child clicker simply because she cannot let Henry go. Like the utter tunnel vision, myopia, you are my target, you are my goal, you are my mission, and nothing else, nothing else can stand in the way. My question was actually where's the rest of the town, as we talked about earlier, but I guess we solved it. They're a book club. They're reading out of the bedroom heaven and they're like, oh, is David Bath? Joe, when she missed with the lit log, though, I was like, damn, it's me missing with my Molotovs for now 18 and a half hours of gameplay, which is where I am.

At this point. I want to talk about this instance of sexual violence here, right? So, um, in episode four when Ellie and Joel are having that conversation about fire and smoke and attracting people, right? Yep. Ellie says, people. So what are they going to do? Rob us? And Joel says, oh, they'll have way more in mind than that. And she goes, okay, right?

So Joel is talking, I think, about sexual violence there, right? And so we get this moment when David is grappling with her on the ground. And he says the fighting is the part I like the most, all that sort of stuff. And then we just get the bear is sort of like reach of his hand down frame to his belt as an implication of what he wants to do in this moment as the fire is raging around him. And, you know, before Ellie, Ellie gets away and has her attack. I had a TV critic friend message me about this before this aired. And he was like asking me about, we covered Thrones for years. There's been a lot of conversation about sexual violence and how it's depicted on HBO.

I thought this was a really, as we continue to talk about sexual violence, the reality of it, what would happen in a post-apocalyptic environment and how that might be a part of it. I think we like to, more, I don't like to talk about this, but I like to think about, like, what is a way to make that reality feel real without making it feel exploitative? And that's how I felt about the way that this was done. That, like, the threat is there, but I don't feel like any, there's nothing sort of lurid about it or any sort of, like, the way in which sexual violence has been depicted on other HBO shows and other shows in general and in film in general, you know, and just like thinking about how to responsibly show something like that. So I just, I don't want to say I liked how it was done, but I liked how it was done. Yeah, I think it's an important point. Yeah.

And then Ellie, you know, just unloads on this guy with the cleaver and the blood spatters the camera. He's definitely dead. She definitely stops and then she definitely does it again. Bella Ramsey. Unbelievable performance. Unbelievable. This is so like almost just unbearably painful to watch this entire sequence. And this eruption of like primal violence in this moment.

The smoke filling the room, the blood spattering the camera, this truly, truly life-altering. trauma and to walk out of that into this blanketed white snow. Like the contrast is just, it boles you over. It really does with the horror. And I think, you know, whatever I feel about David choosing to not put out the fire, this inferno imagery, this Revelations Lake of Fire imagery, like, we are in the depths of hell. This is one of the worst things that could have almost happened.

to Ellie. She has to unlock something very dark in herself in this moment. This is a, you know, this is, and again, I think to what I was talking about earlier, when you are playing this part in the game, she kills so many people in Silver Lake leading up to this moment. She's just shooting people left and right in the gameplay. For it instead to be a distinctive choice for her to kill. here. She's defending herself, but she's also, you know, going above and beyond in this in this

moment of vengeance. I think it just makes it all that more powerful, you know, to not have her have a high body count in this episode, you know? Yeah. And I think, like, you know, it was interesting to hear Amazing and Druckman talk a lot in the inside of the episode and on the pod about how Ellie had to save herself here. So, you know, in the game, Joel comes upon the, the scene of the murder. That's where he finds her, not outside. She kills David in both the game and the show. This idea that he saved her then emotionally was how they put it. She saves herself and then Joel saves her emotionally. I thought it was like a fascinating framework. And the moment of their reunion when he finds her, he sees her, he comes up behind her, he grabs her, she screams. Because she thinks another

horrible thing is about to happen. And then he turns her and says, it's me, it's me. Hey, look, it's me. It's me. And like, what is going through both of their minds in that moment? Everything that has built up to this instant, he's seeing her crying, screaming, shaking, covered in blood, the exact thing that he feared was going to happen. She's not literally dead, but something horrific. She has suffered something horrific has happened. She clings. to him. She hugs him. They just hold each other. And I thought that that idea again of saving herself, like, how did she do it by becoming Joel in a way in that moment, right? By the violence surfaces to such an extent. But we pair that with this like unbelievably emotionally rewarding

reunion of him holding her and he's closing his eyes over her shoulder and we, you noted Joel, Joe, Joel, you Joe noted in our outline the way the count. The count. And our outline the way the camera is lingering on the watch, making us think of Sarah as he says, it's okay, baby girl, I got you. I got you. Like, the entire story is building to this, the nurturing part of Joel that only Ellie can see the vulnerable part of Ellie that only Joel can see. They only show that to each other.

And, you know, the baby girl, of course we're thinking of Sarah. We think of the conversation that they had in the car in episode four. You keep going for family. That's about it. I'm not family, know your cargo. Well, that's not where they are anymore. You think of an exchange at episode six. You're not my daughter and I sure is hell ain't your dad.

Yes, she is. Yes, you are. Like, there's no separation for them anymore. And this idea that the showrunner said that, like, he has not said the phrase baby girls since Sarah died, right? It's okay. Okay, so Scott Shepard, great job. Troy Baker. Great job. Bella Ramsey. Incredible job. Pedro Pascal. Incredible job. What an

episode of television. Just really incredible. This idea, though, he saves her emotionally as a phrase that they've said a couple different times now when talking about this moment, but also that something has happened to Ellie here that will forever change and scar her is also something that they've said. So this is it for us this week. On The Last of Us, we only have one more episode to go, Mallory. Really sad. I don't want it to end. How long till season two?

I think they're writing it right now. So we shall see. Thanks, as always, to Carla Shervoga for his incredible... Thanks, buddy boy, for his incredible work on this episode. For not giving us crap about the runtime. And remember, most importantly, the fungus loves to... Bye!