The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘The Last of Us’ S2E6 Precap: An Episode of Gut Punches, Plus, Co-creator Neil Druckmann and Writer Halley Gross

Episode Date: May 22, 2025

It’s the penultimate episode! Jo and Rob recap Episode 6 of ‘The Last of Us’ and get nostalgic with some key character flashbacks. (0:00) Intro (1:56) Addressing viewer criticism  (21:33) Mushroom apocalypse museum choice (26:27) Digging into Joel’s flashbacks (33:10) The complicated father-daughter relationship (53:54) Co-creator Neil Druckmann and writer Halley Gross (1:22:25) **SPOILERS** Email us! [e-mail] Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of ‘The Prestige TV Podcast’ and so much more! Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney Guest: Neil Druckmann and Halley Gross Producers: Kai Grady and Donnie Beacham Jr. Additional Production Support: Justin Sayles Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson. I'm Rob Mahoney. We're here to talk to you about the penultimate episode of The Last of Us. This is called The Price. And it is written by Craig Mason, Neil Druckman, Holly Gross, and it is directed by Neil Druckman. And today on the podcast, we have a chat with Hallie Gross and Neil Druckman about the episode. So straight from the non-shimmer horse's mouth, uh, it's, uh, it's. is what you will enjoy on this podcast today. So Rob and I are going to do our usual thing. We're going to talk about the episode.

We have a lot of emails from you guys that we want to get to. And then we'll do the interview. And then we will at the end have a sort of look ahead, spoilery chat. Earn our pre-cap title. Sounds good. Okay. So Rob Mahoney, we got a ton of emails. We sure did.

You sent a prompt down to the world. We got a ton of emails. remind me where folks can reach us if they want to email us. You know what, Joe, they can always reach us at Prestige TV at Spotify.com, but for the last of us specifically, I would encourage you to email, this is your brain on shrooms at gmail.com. And yeah, I put out to our listeners last week that I wanted to hear non-gamer's impressions of Ellie this season.

We were hearing a lot from the gamers. I have enough of those people in my life. I know what they think. I know what I think. Boy, did our listeners deliver, Joe. Thank you to everyone for writing. in who's been watching the show, whatever you feel about it, about your feelings about Ellie. We're not going to get to every email, but maybe we can start with this.

We simply couldn't. We simply literally could not. It would be terrible radio. We're not going to do it. But I want to kind of put those emails of non-gamer's impressions of Ellie from this season. People don't have that anchoring bias of the Ellie they think they know into a couple of different buckets. Because I feel like they kind of hude towards a few different categories. And I want to hear your take on these.

I would say the biggest bucket by far was people who are fully on board with the version of Ellie that they're seeing on the show who are appreciating a layered complex portrayal of a teen girl in particular. And this is this is an area where, you know, I think you're bound to hear some difference of opinion in any adaptive work between people who were familiar with the source material or not. But I was I was somewhat heartened and maybe this is our audience within the Last of Us audience that people were mostly viving with the version of Ellie they were seeing on. screen. Right. I love that. And I thought it was really interesting to get these perspectives. And I'm glad you put that prompt down in the world. But yeah, like there's a lot of, we got a lot of just sort of like, I'm loving Ellie. I love Ellie. This is really interesting to me. And again, this might be a select sample of not only people who are listening to this pod, but people are motivated to write into the pod. Sure. You know, we're, you know, it's a little sampling bias at play for sure. Yeah, for sure. But I,

I thought that was really interesting. As we sort of, more and more, I am finding this to be a consuming preoccupation for people as they discuss this show. Because the question we're asking is, like, can the show rest on Ellie's back without Joel? And this is an episode which was full of Joel. And so as we sort of talked about in our, maybe in our pre-caps section at the end of last week's pod, this question of like, If this episode is a banger, which I think it is, like, will that then make people feel even more keenly the loss of the Ellie and Joel dynamic together versus Ellie alone or Ellie with anyone else? So, yeah, it was really interesting to read these emails. Anything in particular that stood out to you in that regard, Rob Mahoney?

I would say from those viewers, it's a lot of people who are now shaken by this character who they liked or they were enjoying following along with, like shaken by what Ellie has done to Nora specifically, in the way that the same. story intense, right? Kind of revealing this new side of Ellie. We got an email in particular from Madeline, who's a psychologist who works with specifically with teens who are undergoing trauma, who said, Ellie shift at the end of the episode reads like classic trauma fugue state stuff and clarified that this is something like she has seen in person in treatment and is as terrifying as you'd expect. And I think it's yet another one of those areas where you're seeing something on screen

and trying to confront your preconceived notions about what that thing is. And I would say that was another bucket is people who have. have a very specific idea of what they think grief looks like on TV or in movies. And some of those people are bumping against the contrast of, you know, Ellie in these happy moments, specifically with Dina, these joking moments with obviously couching all that within this greater pain of losing Joel and everything else going on. Yeah, I thought one email we got, and I'm so sorry, I don't know how that person's name in front of me that I thought was particularly interesting was this idea that like cinematic grief

or television grief were used to it being this all-consuming, uh, 24-7 kind of thing. Um, and that in reality, according to this person, I believe it was from Michael that email. Michael, uh, that like, you'll find yourself at times in, in a grief state, you will find yourself, you know, forgetting your grief or having a laugh or whatever, that this is actually like a very human way to process grief. And I think that can go hand in hand with this other concept of Ellie masking. And it's something that you'll hear Neil and Hallie talk about it in the interview that we have today. But this idea that that is a very intentional thing that they've done, this idea of like what Ellie hides from people, even inside of this episode with Joel, what she hides away from Joel and what she shares with Joel, what she hides from Dina, what she shares with Dina.

And so those, who is Ellie really that sort of like, I'm, I'm shook by what I'm seeing her do to Nora. That's real, like, unmasked, unsmoved over for public consumption, Ellie inside of this. And, you know, I think it's interesting for, you know, we've talked about this a couple of time, this idea of playing a game and being the person versus watching the person on a, on your screen. and there are ways in which as a gamer, one can say, I know exactly who Ellie is because I've been Ellie. I am. And you have just like an even stronger. And every time I killed someone, I was killing them for grief or anger or whatever it is.

And I just think that's like a really interesting adaptive challenge that they have with this particular story. And within that, I think like this larger point about the people who were acknowledging the listeners and viewers who are writing in who acknowledge. who acknowledge, like, this is kind of what this looks like in real life, but is it what I want to see on screen? Do I want to see the realistic portrayal? How is my brain kind of wrestling with it? And I think it's fair for people to feel like the balance is off with some of that stuff. That's going to vary for every individual person.

Like, if this feels true, not just to life, but to some kind of core emotional experience as you're trying to understand, Ellie, I would say there was something similar happening, Joe, with people who wrote in about how they interpret and bounce off of or not teenage characters in general. There was a big portion of these emailers who wrote in, and I would say multiple people classified themselves as members of the Van Lathen School of anti-pluck. Oh, man. They just can't handle it. They can't handle younger characters being plucky, being precocious or not. And I also say this would love. We had many emailers who wrote in who did not classify themselves this way, who did not maybe even understand that they were bumping up

against a teenage character. And what I would say is very normal teenagers being teenagers shit. But as they described, Ellie, it's very clear what they're bumping on, which is this is a 19 year old on television and you're annoyed that you're watching a 19 year old on television. Right. It's fine if that 19 year old is like a sidekick to this, you know, 50 year old dude that I am invested in. Yeah. It's an interesting question. And like, every time I get an email and I see the word plucky in there, I'm like, Van Strikes again. He's starting a movement. He's very, very sticky with his thoughts sometimes. Yeah, I think that's, you know, and I think that's, again, I think there are unfair critiques and I think there are fair critiques. And I think if people are like,

hey, I thought I was watching a show that was centered in an adult experience, this father who is grieving and finding new life in meeting, in helping and protecting this young girl, et cetera, and now I feel like I'm watching a show where I'm following a teenage girl and her girlfriend in Seattle, etc., etc. And on the one hand, it is fair to say, hey, man, that's not the experience I thought I was signing up for. And on the other hand, I think that's really limited to a certain degree. It's fine. It doesn't mean you are like, you know, sexist or ageist or anything like that. But it's just like the joy of storytelling is to lose yourself in stories that are not your own.

And so, yes, it's really interesting and important to see yourself reflected on the screen. It is important that, you know, young women, young queer women see themselves reflected on the screen. It is important that, like, you know, perhaps dads of a certain age sees themselves on screen. Well, they're famously underrepresented. Often do. Right. But, like, there's so much to learn about, and then the whole point, as we sort of glance at it. around because this is a podcast where we're trying not to spoil all the facets of the game, right, in this beginning section. But like, that is the point of this game is to try to get you into other points of view. Yes. So if you're bumping on that, that's fine. It doesn't make you a bad person. But what I would hope that you would look for in your storytelling is a perspective that is not your own. Completely. That, you know, that's ideal. And I would say that was a substantial and this is the last bucket of emailers who wrote in or just people who love the

Joel Ellie dynamic and are sort of reckoning with the absence of it in a way that the show is that the game did textually metatextual like that is the whole deal right is like reckoning with the absence of that thing I don't think it's an accident though Joe that this week's episode I would say is the best and most important episode of this season and what Pedro Pascal and Bella Ramsey have together on screen is really special and it's a hard thing to lose and And how you wrap your brain around that. Like, that's a compliment to the episode, but it's a conundrum for the story. It's like, how do you tell this story without Joel when this thing that's at the heart of it is so special?

And Marcus emailed us, and this is what he had to say, when Ellie was with Joel, I felt like all her complexities and nuances were on display. Without Joel, the show felt empty because of that missing Joel Ellie dynamic. And so you're seeing a different version of Ellie by herself with Dina in all these different contexts as she's going on her revenge tour. But you know what you're not seeing is Ellie and Joel. And there's always going to be a part of the audience and a part of within, I think, people who enjoy this story and this show who are going to love that and going to miss that whenever it's not there. This episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty,

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Get 20% off your first purchase at viori.com slash Simmons and discover the versatility of Viori clothing. Exclusions apply, visit the website for full terms and conditions. What was your experience when you're playing the game? You know, Neil and Halley will talk about this a bit in the interview. Certainly they've talked about this elsewhere. and Mal and I talked about this, but like, the, um, these flashback moments are sprinkled throughout, uh, you know, a certain section of the gameplay. And, um, so then you have like,

you are occasionally revisiting Joel and thinking about Joel and Ellie and stuff like that. Um, so as a gamer or, and as a TV consumer and as a TV critic of, uh, of a kind, um, like, that's very generous of you. I am a basketball blogger. I don't call myself a TV critics. That's the only reason why I said that. I'm like, we're not really critics, but we are at the same time. It's a complicated thing. We need a new word for it.

But the, like, how does the difference in the cadence, I guess, sit for you, Rob? You know, I was a little concerned about it. And we talked about this some on last week's pot about just getting this, not dose, but potential overdose of is this going to feel like too much of the flashback? Happy to report. It did not. I love this episode. I thought it worked really effectively. I think it's just a gorgeous episode that showcases what the last of us at its best can be. And that's through this longitudinal look at Joel and Ellie through all these different years. It is, as you and Mal talked about in House ofar, like a transposing of a kind of the sort of like Bill and Frank type of storytelling. But what if we didn't do it with these side characters? What if we did it with the two people you care about most in this world? And we show kind of the gradual fraying. of their relationship under the weight of this lie that Joel has told. I thought it was incredibly effective. And this is another area where I think the game in the show of just fundamentally different problems they're trying to solve from a storytelling perspective.

You talked about, you know, how it puts you into the character's head in a different way when you're playing them. If you're Ellie walking through the Seattle or creeping, I guess, through the Seattle landscape, murdering people, killing infected, violence upon violence upon violence, you need the flashbacks as like a pallet cleanser, right? Like you need moments where you're stepping out of the bleakness of her current circumstance into something that's maybe not light and cheery, but takes you back to a simpler time for Ellie or a different setting. You need a little bit of light in that darkness in a way where the show you don't have to break it up all that same way because the violence is naturally parceled out differently episode to episode. I think that's really interesting.

And I think something that I'm sort of noodling on is this idea that like, because it wasn't super strong. in the emails we got, but I was seeing a lot on this on the Reddit boards this week is the critique has moved of Ellie as a character has moved out of sort of the likeability or maturity realm and into something that feels a little bit more legit, but I still have issues with it, which is competency. Oh, sure. That Ellie in the game, because we see her murdering so many people as she goes through Seattle, feels like a more competent person and that the Ellie in the show world, that Dina feels like

the more hyper-competent of the two of them. And I'm wondering if I'm Neil Druckman and Craig Mason and anyone else who's working on the writing of the show, if my fear of losing the Jolenelli dynamic, which is not, you know, this is the story they once tell. They weren't like super afraid of it. They were like, we want to tell the same story we told in the game. But if they're thinking, okay, we knocked out of the park with Pedro Pescal and Bella Ramsey, and that's just an incredible dynamic. Okay, our new dynamic duo is going to be Dina and Ellie. So we need to make sure that Dina is someone that people are really excited to spend time with. And the casting knocked it out of the park. Absolutely. Everyone has been saying all season, Dina, so,

good, charismatic, fun, blah, blah. And then in the writing, in terms of making Dina the one with her head screwed on a bit more, or this, that, you know, is thinking things through a bit more, this, that, and the other thing, I wonder if then accidentally they over-indexed on, like, you know, and pouring all of the concern of building up Dina into a character we can invest in the way that we were invested in Joel in a short amount of time. And then in contrast, Ellie looks a bit less competent than she looks in the game. So that's that's one thing I've been thinking about. On the other hand, competency is not a requirement for me to enjoy or be invested in a character. And some of the, something I got annoyed by this morning reading some of

those Reddit posts was like, it just, it really bothered me that. I felt like I was seeing the exact reverse of the arguments we heard around a character like Ray and Star Wars who was just sort of like, she's a Mary Sue, she's too good at this, she's too competent. You hear that all the time with like female characters. And it happens to be more than it happens to male characters. And so it's just sort of like she knows too much. She's, she's too good at this.

She's too athletic. She's too, et cetera, et cetera. She's too overpowered, blah, blah. And so to watch Ellie like try and struggle and be, and be good. I mean, like, you mentioned this last week. Like, how did she get into the hospital, get to Nora? Yeah. You know, get back out as we saw.

She's walking towards the theaters. She got in, killed Nora, got out. That's an extremely competent thing for her to have done. Remembering season one, Ellie, who not only, like, made it out of David's clutches herself, but also, like, single-handedly, like, hauled Joel to safety and save Joel. So, like, we have seen this from Ellie. It's maybe easy to forget if you haven't rewatch season. one in a while. But like, I get frustrated when I just feel like the goalpost constantly moves on

like what a female character or a young female character is allowed or supposed to be. Do you know what I mean? I think especially a version of Ellie that would be more true to the games, which like just to kind of classify it, Ellie in the games is kind of a straight up killing machine. Yeah. I think people would be bumping very hard on Ella, like Bella Ramsey, like cutting through patrols of WLF soldiers at a time in the way that you kind of have to, or at least that you can in the game. It would be a whole different conversation, but you're right. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't sort of balance. I think you're so right, Joe, to contextualize it as character relative to other characters. All we know is who these people are to each other and relative to

each other and what they're bringing to the table. And so, yeah, the balance of trying to make Dina a little more fleshed out, a little more well-rounded, just giving her more to do in this story than she has to do in the game is naturally going to have tradeoffs. And I think the version of Ellie that we're seeing is a version that is a little bit more careless for sure. And some of that is like naturally, you know, another emailer, Avani, you emailed us about kind of the teenage, watching teenagers on television dynamic put in a way of like, what teenager who has this natural immunity and think she's invincible, like wouldn't be overconfident. Right. I think it's natural in specifically these post-apocalyptic circumstances in which you are not affected by the thing everyone else is affected by.

You're going to do some careless things. You're going to do some reckless things. You're going to get over your skis a little bit in a way that like Dina has to plan in a way that Ellie doesn't. And so, yeah, you're changing the character a little bit maybe in terms of some of its complexion and some of Ellie's personality. But the story is different. Like she's traveling under different circumstances. And so it makes sense to do that. I think it's also really interesting that like, yeah, where that three-month time jump is something that's easy to forget, but it's such a difference from the game. We're not leaving Jackson just in a completely raw state, but in a three months to stew and think and process a bit differently inside of it.

And I think also, I think what's interesting about Ellie that gets lost in these critiques is like, Like, Ellie's beautiful empathy, like, you know, when you see inside of this episode, you know, Eugene, like, Ellie's act there. Ellie's like, wait, we can do this. We have time. Is an active empathy, right? I want Eugene and Gail to have this time. Now, what she does later in terms of exposing Joel's lie to Gail, that is vindictive towards Joel. It is not, she's not considering Gail necessarily in that.

that moment. But Ellie thinking about Eugene, Ellie thinking about wanting to save the world. You know, like we talk about Joel's savior complex and Ellie savior complex. That's all in the mix. But also like, Ellie wanted to cure people. Ellie is devastated that Joel mowed down a hospital. Like these are all things that are beautiful about Ellie, you know, a person who is capable of caring very deeply about other people. Yes. And so I think that just gets lost in the shuffle of some of these other things. Her insecurity, too, I find very endearing to me or intriguing to me.

You know, her doubt around Dina, all of that stuff, which is like a heightened, much more heightened in the show than it is in the game, makes me feel for Ellie. So, yeah, I'm invested. to say the least. Yeah. It's different, but this is a great portrayal. This is a great performance. I like this Ellie a lot.

I'm also, of course, conflicted about the shit that she's doing in the world in terms of the violence that she's exercising. But that's what the story is about fundamentally. But how do you want to navigate this episode, Joe? Because we're bouncing through time.

We've got a lot to get through. Where do you want to start? I want to start. I want to start by asking you a question, Rob. Okay. If, let's see. let's say your lovely wife or to like, you know, wanting to like

cook up a beautiful birthday experience for you in the mushroom apocalypse. What museum exhibit is she taking you, Rob Mahoney too? Great question. I am an art museum guy over a science museum experience. Unfortunately, I'm going to say she

and I, and maybe me and other people, have very disparate museum experiences. I would be terrible in a mushroom apocalypse museum because I am a linger in front of every painting, read every placard kind of museum visitor. I worry about what that means when nightfall comes and the infected swarm and the animals and the raiders are about. You know, it's not a great situation to be lingering. Yeah. Rob caught staring at the masterwork, like the Dutch masterworks and then dies by a mushroom zombie. What are we here for if not that? And what a way to go ultimately?

But you definitely want to go to like an art museum and not like a basketball, Hall of Fame sort of place. We contain multitudes, Joe. Yeah, you could be a many things. I do like the shooty hoops, but I also like the art museum. Okay. All right.

And then also... Wait, hold on. You didn't answer the question yourself. I want to know a museum you're visiting in this sort of moment. Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, do I want to go to the Academy Museum in Los Angeles and, like, do movie history? Is that what I want to do? That might be really cool. Especially

like if you grow up, like, you like, you like the shooty hoops, but let's say you grew up on a mushroom apocalypse without getting to like, getting the joy of getting to watch basketball all the time. And so then you can like go to that museum and say, oh my God, it was real. It was all real. You know, and so similarly, if I'm living on the crumbs of whatever DVDs have survived the mushroom apocalypse, we're not streaming endless movies, you know, maybe wandering around the Academy Museum in Los Angeles, like, or going to the, well, we can't fly. But can I get to the BFI in London? Maybe. Like, that would be cool. So, yeah, that's what I would pick probably. Okay. Another question for you.

Please. Are you interested in hearing our listener Adam talk about how one sources vanilla in the mushroom apocalypse? I would love nothing. I've been wondering about this myself. Like Tahiti is a very far way away. Yeah, Madagascar as well. So Adam says, there are, you see two main sources of artificial vanilla flavor in the world. Okay. One is vanilla. which accounts for nearly 100% of all artificial vanilla used. It can be manufactured in various ways, including from wood pulp. But given that manufacturing is involved, that's probably not where Seth got his vanilla. Which brings to the second source, almost never used in our modern world, castorium.

As this name indicates, castorium comes from mature beavers. Caster means beaver in Latin and modern French. Specifically, it is a secretion from their anal glands. While it was originally used to substitute for flavors including strawberry and raspberry, It was most commonly used to mimic vanilla. And whereas post-apocalyptic Wyoming probably doesn't have woodpult plants or global supply chains, I'm pretty confident that it does have beavers. Wow.

So I learned so much about vanilla from Adam. And do you think when Seth said of the birthday cake options, vanilla's easier. He was saying that because he was just like, can't wait to excrete the anal glands of the, I don't know what the group name of Beaver's is, the past little beavers I have back there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What do you think?

Rob Pony. I mean, based on what we know of Seth, I think that has to be the case. He's just a closeted beaver farmer at the end of the day. Secreting those glands. I'm going to say from an evolutionary standpoint. Yeah. I don't know how the beavers with the good smelling anal glands survived as the fittest.

I don't really look. The math on that isn't really mapping. Why not? Because when, like, if you're a, if you're a, if you're, well, there's just no. great way to say this. If you're the female of the species and you're watering around and you're like, wow, that beaver over there smells like vanilla extract? Are you not procreating? That part I understand, you know, from a smaller beaver mounting the bigger beaver perspective, all of the squirrels we get in this episode. But wouldn't the same be true if you're also a woodland predator and you're

smelling this amazing, like basically a vanilla scented candle beckoning you in from the beaver's anal glands. Yeah, you're like bedbath and beyond. Here we come. Okay, great point. Now all I can think about is Ellie just getting fistfuls of beaver gland secretions. Everything you've said here is tough and I let us here. So let's go back to the very beginning of this episode. We get this flashback to 80s, Austin, Texas, and we meet Joel and Tommy's father, played by the great Tony Dalton. Oh, the greatest. This is not in the game. This is. is a show invented vignette. And we talked about this a bit on House of R.

Mallory and I talked about this in the context of Tommy as a dad, but I thought we got a really interesting email from Sarah about what it says about Joel's insecurity as a dad, right? A lot to talk about on that front this week. Saying like Joel is so insecure in his parenting so constantly in need of validation from Ellie. Did I do okay? Did I do it?

Do you like it? Did I do okay? Do you like it? Um, that's me, honestly, when I make like a meal for anyone or whatever. Who among us, frankly? Is that good? Do you? Are you enjoying it?

Anyway. Um, but this idea that Joel grew up with an abusive dad who grew up with an even more abusive dad sort of thing and this idea of like, when you come from an abusive home and have that as your, um, model for parenthood, you fear that you will repeat those cycles or will not be able to deliver as a parent. And Joel, especially when he has this concept of having failed Sarah, right, this thing he says in season one, I'm failing in my sleep. Like he thinks about that all the time. I failed to protect Sarah, which was my job as a dad. And if he has this model of his dad, Javier Miller, like, you know, what does this do to his insecurities as a father? I thought that was

really interesting. What do you think? What did you think of this opening scene, which was show original? and what do you think of it as a skeleton key to understanding Joel a bit more? I mean, I think that element you described by Joel's insecurity is so central in this episode. And the Sarah element specific, like, that is kind of the seed of that idea within his actual fatherhood, right? There's all of the specters of what his own father was that we learn in this scene. I want to give a particular special shout out to whoever was doing the sound design work in this episode for the absolute sledgehammer force of Tony Dalton's fist hitting his hand as he's telling the story of his father clocking him in the jaw. Holy fuck.

I agree. It was startling. Yeah, the boots were stomping and the like fist was slapping. And you haven't remind me, sorry, quick pause, not pause of the podcast, but pause on what we're talking about. You were going to start Andor this weekend. Did you manage to start Andor yet? Unfortunately not. Life got in the way.

So Andor's still ahead for me, fortunately. That's okay. When you get to the end of Andor years from now, think of our sound design question we're talking about here. It's so key. Yes. And it's so overlooked in a story like this. So anyway, sorry, you were saying about this part of the story. Just especially, we're just meeting this character, right?

We're just meeting Joel's father for the first time. We're trying to get a sense of what he's about. We can see that teenage Joel is very intimidated by this prospect of having this conversation. And so that you get that physical force as he is talking about basically why he does or does not hit his own children. And you get this quick cutaway to Joel, like almost like shaking with anxiety at that like that physical sound at the kind of building menace in this scene. And that we get again very quickly, it's a very efficient compact scene of emotional storytelling. Introducing this character, helping us understand what Joel's childhood was like, having his dad walk. up to the line of explaining like this is why I am the way I am and then basically tearing

himself down and starting to interrogate why do I do that when do I do that like what is the line between me and my own father and I think ultimately using this scene as a launch pad to add another layer of complexity to the porch scene that we get at the end which you know already is as emotionally dense as anything you're going to see on TV this year I think is just really really beautiful storytelling. Like really, really incredible stuff that helps enrich a scene that I was already looking forward to

at the end with something that I had no idea could possibly be coming. Also, I'm interested in this concept of like non-apology across the episode, right? Yeah. Like, Havier talks about, he talks about the context, but he doesn't apologize for what he does. And he just says,

I hope you do better than me, right? And then there's a seed in the middle as part of Ellie's sort of teenage rebellion where she's like, I'm sorry about the pot. I'm sorry about the tattoo. I'm sorry about this, except I'm not. Only I'm not. You know, and then when Joel. Teenager Ellie, really in full effect in this episode, like Pinkerton poster on the wall.

Like, she's living it. And then we get to Joel in the end and he, you know, nods and shakes his head to confess what he's done. Yeah. And he doesn't say, I'm sorry. you know, he just says, because I love you, you know, and I'll pay the price because you'll turn away from me. You know, like, there's no apology there. He's just sort of like, and this is something, you know, Neil has talked about over the years and Craig has talked about since season one, this idea of like, it's an easy choice for Joel. Yeah. It was an easy choice for him. And it might be an easy choice for many of the parents who listen to this podcast or watch this show where they're just sort of like, this is the easiest equation I could possibly think of.

of course I would do this. And even in the face of Ellie's devastation, there's no apology for it, which is, you know, I'm actually not going to pass any kind of judgment on it. I just think it's a very interesting human conundrum of, you know, she's devastated. And he's like, yeah, I understand that I devastated you. Yeah. But I would do it all over again. I think that to me is the magic of this story is we know these characters.

We know what they've been through. We know the choice that Joel made. Putting us on a track, emotionally speaking, where we're going to get to a place where because you're selfish and because I love you are kind of the same thing in their own way. Like they're both completely true and completely earned and completely in arguable. And these two people are in such fundamentally different places about understanding what that event and what that lie meant. But they're both extremely right. And I love that we get there in the end with the porch scene.

I love that we get that sequence at all in this season, which we've been talking about in the spoiler section. We weren't sure if that was going to be coming or not or when. And we can we can unpack that whole sequence a little later when we kind of get to it improper. But I was I was blown away by it. Well, what do you want to say in the middle, you know, between in the, you know, Austin, Texas Kitchen to Portstein, like the meat of the sandwich? What, like, stuck out most to you is the thing? I don't know that they either, like, nailed from the game for you. or added to the game for you,

what really stuck out in the middle sections of this episode for you? I mean, nailed from the game, I think, is easy. It's going to be the museum sequence that is almost not quite shot for shot, but as closely adapted from the game as possible. It's perfect in the game. And so, no surprise, it's kind of perfect tier two.

I don't really see it as like even flattering the sensibilities of gamers. I think there are times during the season where it's like, oh, that one's for us. You know, like, that's a little Easter egg. That's a little moment. maybe even something like the take on me sequence hits me differently than it would somebody who hasn't played the game. Although I think it works for a lot of different people, you included, if I remember

Craig Lee. I think it's more like when you see them crouching. You're like that one's for the gamers. That's also true. When they're scrounging for spoiled milk in the grocery store. But to me, this is not about flattering the sensibilities of people like me. It's about letting a different audience experience the thing that we've already experienced if you've played through the game. game, which is how amazing the sequence is. And I think this is one of those moments in particular that really hammers home the fact that this show does miss Pedro Pascal. Like, it does miss him.

It does miss Joel. It's hard not to feel that when you see this guy pop off one single tier in the space pod. Like, he's just on an incredible level. I couldn't. It's tremendous work. Like, I thought he, look, he and Bella Rams are both so great throughout. this episode, but you do get the feeling of how much you miss him. You get a sense of like how special these characters are to each other. And you know, as we were talking through the museum

hypothetical up top, like of, you know, what would you do in this kind of post-apocalyptic space? Like, where would you want to go? There's something so magical about this museum sequence in the sense that clearly Joel understands Ellie at this point in her life and kind of what she wants and the things she wishes she could have experienced. And he can take her to this museum to live through a version of some of those things. And there's also the part of it where it's like, this is the sort of museum where people like Joel and Ellie would in normal times just be a father and a daughter, right? Like would just be normal people having a day out. And the irony of that being that Joel and Ellie specifically would never be in this place together and would never have met if the world hadn't gone to shit.

And so, you know, these these relationships that are forming and over the course of episode kind of breaking down or at least starting to show some fissures, like they are inextricable from the context that they live in. I love that. It's so the Petra Pascal it's almost overwhelming Mallory and I were talking about this last night because we've just been sending each other Petro Pascal at Cannes

Instagram post and honestly Honestly my Instagram feed right now between the Eddington at Cannes stuff the materialist stuff is like gearing up so we're getting like Dakota and stuff like that you know like that's all happening

there's the last of us, there's the fantastic for, I'm like, I am just like swimming in, in Pedro Pescal content. Like to my curated feed, he is the biggest star in the world. Now, I'm not sure that that is true, but that is what it feels like right now. And so, yeah, to watch him effortlessly do what he does, see, it feels effortless. I'm sure it's very effortty, but it feels effort. It doesn't feel like that single tier that you're talking about, I think I've seen so many other actors like really try, you know, to like even get close to what's just sort of,

you know, beaming out of him naturally inside of that sequence. It's so powerful. And it's an incredible Ellie sequence, too, you know, like the way in which we are ported inside of Ellie's head, Ellie's experience, the lighting of the of the takeoff, fantasy takeoff sequence, like all And to see her so happy and so calm and to know where her story's going is devastating. It's really, really good. But we need those contrasts to feel that, right? To feel the extent of that weight and that journey. And I agree with you. I think Bella Ramsey is wonderful in this museum sequence.

I think really they're wonderful throughout the episode, but really funny, really wounded. Like we see all these different sides of them. The devious sly smile when Ellie realizes she gets to throw the rock to break open the museum cases, just pitch perfect stuff. Loved it. All right. What else in the meat of this episode? What do you want to talk about? I want to zero in a little bit on birthday.

I guess this is number three of the cat encounter, all the teenage shit happening at once. And really, I would say the aftermath of that, as Joel and Ellie are sort of unpacking. That moment, what they are to each other at this stage, and specifically this, like, this is my house. Fatherhood stomping moment. Yeah. Not to like, you're not my real dad this thing out, but. But it's kind of what's happening here. And I think, I think this is something that I don't see explored very often in these sorts of like found family types of stories, which is if you do have a found family, as many TV shows turn out to be.

And there is like a paternalistic figure. Guess what? You don't have any actual authority other than what those other people give you. And so the kind of interchange here between Ellie is like allowed Joel to basically be her functional father in a lot of senses. and they live together and that that balance is shifting under their feet. But especially now that they're in the relative safety of Jackson, my man, you don't have jurisdiction here. Like you're not keeping this girl alive.

You're just wanting to be her dad. This is such an interesting Mahoney take because you, like, you've said this a couple times over the pods of this season of like she's not, he's not her dad, which he's not. He's not. But he is. But he is because she allows it. She, well, it's not to allow. It's like she desperately.

wanted that. Yes. She wanted Joel as her family. She was like cleaving to him like in season one. And so like, you know, to then say my guy, you have no rights here, which like is technically true, but it's also like to, you know, it's got to be emotional whiplash for Joel to be like to have this little, you know, fortunate girl desperately want him to be her father figure and then to say, F you, you're not my real dad. And like, that's a natural human thing for Ellie, but it's like a devastation for Joel. And like, Joel handles it a bit better than I would say, oh, I don't know, poop on your friends and neighbors. Look, different levels of emotional maturity happening, even for someone as closed off as Joel Miller. And look, I totally agree with you. And 14 year old

Ellie to me is just a fundamentally different proposition than 19 year old Ellie. Like this is a, this is a woman, a young woman who is finding herself and is a, trying to find her footing in the world. And as we find out over the course of this episode, has been encountering years of this man not seeing her in the way that she thought he did. Right. Like him kind of bringing up like,

oh, I thought you and Jesse kind of had a thing. My guy, you got to know bros when you see them. Like, they're just being bros. It's not a big deal. But yeah,

like, and the moth thing, like all these little elements of her life that I think Ellie probably took on face that, oh, this person knows me. He would get this. And some things he gets and some things he doesn't.

And so when it comes time to, like, lay down the law, you don't really have a law here. Like, you have a relationship. They are obviously something to each other. And very often it resembles father and daughter. But it's not quite all the time. And certainly the older she gets, the less it's going to resemble 14-year-old Ellie and the guy protecting her in the wilderness as cargo. It's certainly a weapon that someone inside of a found family situation or, you know, we usually hear it in a sort of like step parent, stepchild. Yeah.

You're not my real dad sort of dynamic. The fact that this is a you're not my real dad and also, and I learned it from watching you episode, just real tough breaks for parents everywhere. But like that that is a weapon that a child can use when they're trying to individuate themselves from this figure that they have, you know, in the best case scenario, received love and protection and all these other things from. Okay. I want to talk to you about the porch scene.

Please. This was devastating. This is one of the toughest things I've ever watched. Yeah. And then I watched it again and again and again and again. And I just thought it was so beautiful. Neil will talk a bit more about sort of the where and wise of them putting it inside of this episode versus saving it for later. but as someone Rob as someone who like wasn't sure we were getting it are you glad we got it do you feel like they nailed it and and a question so like you know we feel free to mention this because the porch scene is already in the show but this comes at the very end of the game right yeah is there a possibility I did not ask Neil this but like is there a possibility in your mind Rob that there is even just like a little bit more at the end of that porch scene that they could give us at the very end of the

of the series, you know, because like she says I'd like to try. It's a beautiful end of the scene. We don't need more necessarily, but like him handing her the guitar, her taking the car back into her room. You know, like there's, there's just like a little bit of stuff there that could, that could still be in the can. So anyway, what do you think of the porch scene? What do you think of its placement?

How are you feeling wrong? I think it's wonderful. Like, I'm a sucker for, I would say, revisiting any sort of moment. or seen from a different context, like a perspective flip, go back in time, like let's see it. And I think starting with the dance, we already had the kind of like kicked puppy part of Pedro Pascal's performance once Ellie chews him out in front of everybody.

But knowing everything we know now, it just transforms that years-long deterioration of their relationship and the way things are changing out from under him, like in a way he cannot get a grasp of. And it is so painful in that moment that we then get the follow up on the porch. And Joe, I thought you made a great point on House of R about some of the discrepancies between, again, not to make everything game and show, but like Troy Baker's Joel and Pedro Pascal's Joel. And so I think we get within this scene that already is very powerful, so many new and different wrinkles. One, based on having that prologue with Joel's father and getting the cyclical understanding of who this character is and where he's been.

But also, like, Pedro is so much of a more emotive, Joel. And this is a character who's still closed off, but he is just borderline sobbing by the end of this thing. Obviously can't articulate in the same way. Like, you know, he's choked up in a way that I think changes that scene dramatically. And I think it's proof of how far you can change the texture

with an adaptive work without changing like the fundamentals of what that scene is about. Like we're getting the same lessons from it, although some kind of, some shifts as far as like the mechanics of the storytelling. But the emotions are very much the same. But Pedro is bringing something to it that's totally different from what Troy Baker brings to it. And I loved it.

I'm so glad you loved it. I'm glad it fed you in the way that one would hope someone who loves the game would feel fed by that. Again, I agree with you. I think it's just encouraging us to cherish the game, cherish the source material, and be open to different interpretations. If this Ellie feels different to you, well, this Joel is different. Absolutely.

The game Joel, you know. I would say leans even more into the dad elements of Joel than the game does, which that's clearly part of the text. It's always part of that character. It's always part of the story. But there's something about Pedro Pascal's Joel that is even more needy dad

than the game version. Yeah. All right. Anything else you want to talk about in a non-spoiler way? I would say just the reveal here of like the fundamental lie, which is different from in the game in terms of how Ellie confronts Joel about like, you have been lying to me

all this time. And specifically this idea of taking it from, again, what in the game is like an audio tape recording empirical proof kind of truth and transforming it into a character kind of truth is a really inspired touch. And I think something that is telling us a lot about these

characters. And I think it's also delivering on Joel's attempted session with Gail earlier in the season. Like, I don't think Joel is ready to tell the truth in this moment if he doesn't have that half conversation with with Gail in therapy about finally being ready to say the thing out loud.

And so to get some pay off for that. He just shakes his head and nods it. He nods along. He's at least willing to acknowledge her saying it. Therapy. It works, guys. You know, it does work. You know, sometimes you need an Ellie. You need an Ellie to give you like an AB test. Yes or no.

I'm going to say these things. You nod or you don't. I'll also say Ellie to me is just like a natural redditor in this episode. She's like, I have some plot hole questions about your story. You know, let me, let me, what happened to the fireflies? What's up with the Raiders? How did we get out of there? Let me, let me go A through D and you can answer my queries. This is the classic Reddit thread. On that front inside of that porch scene, something that we should clarify, you know, we've gotten some emails about this on on both of the shows, this idea of like, how can Joel say, you know, did they have a cure? It would have worked definitively when they don't know scientifically.

And Neil has said in interviews this week, he's like, it is our intention that the cure would have worked. He was like, now are scientists at home poking holes in our science? Sure. Yeah. That's fine. But inside the story sense of the game, there would have been a cure. It would have worked. This is the math.

It wasn't a maybe cure, save Ellie or a maybe cure. It was a save Ellie or save the world sort of choice. That's what Neil wants to make sure is very clear inside of the game and show logic. I think that level of certainty adds to that decision to me. I get why adding another layer of like cloudy maybe would enrich the story for some people. But I like the more direct tradeoff of she will certainly die. And there will certainly be some tangible. societal benefit to this, although, you know, you and I talked about the realities of vaccine

distribution in these times. Yeah. It's, it's thorny to say the least. But, you know, unquestionably, it would be saving some people. And really what so much of this episode is about to me, Joe, is this like power of assumption, right? This idea that if you are, Joel, you are assuming so much about Ellie in her life and assuming you know that person, but what kind of what gives you the right to make the decisions that you are? What gives you the right to prevent her from going out on patrol? What gives you the right to prevent her from going on patrol? What gives you the right to dictate the terms of her life as she's becoming an adult? And in the broader, like, big decision and big license, what gives you the right to take away the one thing she wanted

for herself, which is for her immunity and her life to mean something? And so there's, you know, you can almost throw out the question of like, is Joel right or not? It's like, what gives him the right to even make that decision in the first place is such a key part of the story? And I guess the right is like, that's just love or that's parenthood, you know, something that I don't personally have access to, but is something that, you know, we have heard from a lot of parents over the course of covering the show. They're like, yep, easy decision. Would do it. Not a question.

All right. I want to go to our interview now with Neil and Halley. Before we do that, I just want to mention one thing that I promised Anne Foley, the costume designer we talked to you last week that I would mention. I talked about it at House of Barb, but I just want to mention it here. She sort of teased that her favorite costume of the season was inside of this episode, episode six. And it's the t-shirt in the museum scene that they like sort of painstakingly replicated. They had to like paint it and make it to make it the same because it was like drawn for the game. And it's sort of like they turned it into a real garment because it was very important to them that it be as close as possible to this game moment that's so important to people.

So great work from Anne. Can I tell one more thing, Joe, before we flip to the interview? And I apologize for giving me the short shrift. Like we're flying through. There's a lot to unpack here. I know. The Eugene sequence, I genuinely don't know how this show does this as far as like introduce a character, kill him 10 minutes later. And it feels like a punch in the gut when it happens.

Like creating these bonds so quickly. And like Joe Pantaliano is a huge part of that. I think he's amazing in this scene to a degree that makes me sad. We don't get more of him. But the stakes in the anguish of this world are so well articulated and so well. understood that you can do that time and again and introduce us to new pockets in which we actually do feel things, not just like understand that this is a person in tense circumstances, but like that is a gut punch moment for a character that I, even playing the game, I just don't

really care about Eugene very much, but now I do. I think that this is something that we should say about Craig Mason's writing. Like, you know, Neil and Halley and Craig are all credited on this episode, but this is something that Craig has done again and again in like various vignettes that we've seen on the show. I just think he's a real master of a vignette. Any of the cold opens we've gotten, any sort of like, like, Sarah, phyte vignette or whatever it is. Like, he's just incredibly good at the, at the short story inside of, even shorter than a short story. Because I would say, like, Bill and Frank is a perfect short story. But, like, he does, like, fast fiction, flash fiction, sort of, you have mere moments, mere minutes with,

you know, this doctor in Indonesia or whatever it is. And you're just sort of like, all in. and really, really emotionally bound to it. I just wanted that doctor to be able to finish her lunch. She got rushed off into the lab with no explanation. It's like, let this woman eat her lunch, please. Yeah, and let Eugene talk to Gail on the Waki or whatever it is that we could have solved this whole thing with, you know? I promise we're going to get out of here.

I think we have to address the Wokie Talkie of it all. I've seen this pop up. The emails have been coming in. Why don't you just hand Eugene the Wauke-Toki-talkie? I think it's a very practical answer to what to me is a very emotional question. And it's kind of like illustrative of the whole thing to me, which is like Joel is operating from a very pragmatic standpoint. These are the rules they keep us safe. These people are speaking different languages.

Like what Eugene wants is not to tell Gail something. And he even says that. Like he wants this moment with the person he loves most in the world. And all due respect to the reception of, you know, transistor radios and walkie talkies everywhere. Like you're just not getting that. Like you're not getting what Eugene is after. But it's something. It might not be like a slice, a greedy handful of vanilla cake, but it's like some crumbs,

a lick of frosting. It's better than no cake at all, right? A couple of crumbs and a lick of a beaver's anal gland, you know, just everything he could be asking for. He wants to see her face. He doesn't get to see her face. And he wants her words for him. And he could have gotten them over the radio. And we can't even like make the argument that they wouldn't have gotten reception.

because how else do they radio in the like, you know, incident in the first place. I think it would work. I just think it's not quite what he's asking for, if that makes sense. Oh, it's definitely not what he's asking for, but it's like a compromise. Okay, I can't take you back. You're about to turn. You're right. But at least you can hear her voice.

And that's okay. Whatever. It's fine. Like, I said this on the rewatchables. Cell phones have ruined so many movies. And walkie-talkies ruin the. premise of this beautiful story. So I'm just willing

to say all the batteries ran out at once and all the walkies. There you go. Okay. Let's go now to our conversation with Neil and Alley. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound terseptide may be able to help.

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At Sephora, spritz on lush notes of rainforest orchid and crisp seabries with he fresco paraizzo. Embrace of floral and fruity scent inspired by Rio Leroy. nude beach with chiqui bikini or capture sun-kissed bliss with immonada jolada jolada, where zesty Brazilian lemonade accord meets coconut milk and golden brown sugar. Don't miss Sol de Janado's limited edition perfume mist collection only at Sephora. I want to start by asking you about the decision to parcel out, instead of parceling out the flashbacks across the season to sort of condense them all into one single episode.

Yeah, I think with a lot of these questions about differences, it will often come back to the differences in not only the medium, but the delivery of that medium. So in the game, each flashback, you know, you're in it for a while. So you get to like get in the flow stage. You get to be with Joel. You're like moving with them. He's teaching you how to swim.

You're entering the museum yourself as Ellie. Those scenes, if we were to parse them out on their own, I would worry they would be too short. And so you wouldn't kind of get into them. they would feel more disruptive. And then I would worry that the episode would start feeling like a template of like, okay, what's the Joel sequence for this week? So I felt it worked better in the game.

And I felt in our conversations. And I agreed that it would be more impactful to put them all together so you could see them side by side and feel the evolution of that relationship over the course of the episode. Holly, it's my understanding that you were sort of deeply involved in the construction, how to arrange. the flashbacks in the original season in the original game when you put put all the flashbacks together and the ordering of it um i'm curious when you when it comes to figure out which ones to pick and choose or what to pick and choose for this episode was there something you felt the most bullish on that like this has to be in here or else i quit listen a million percent for asking for me so for me my i have two favorite parts of the game one is not in this season because it comes later but

My other favorite part of this game is Ellie and Joel going to the museum. I think, you know, this show is so much about survival. We need to be reminded what are we surviving for? What are we fighting for? And what are the memories that are keeping Ellie on this mission? And so having something that really brought a lot of lightness and joy and really the best day of their lives was super important to me. And I also think it's super important to show that even on their very, very, very, very best day, right? Ellie still sees fireflies.

Ellie still can't get away from this lie between them. So to me, that sequence, you need that super high sequence so that we can navigate the real lows. I love that. Neil, do you feel the same way or is there a different moment that you felt most bullish about? I know what Neil's going to say? dark moment. No, no, no, I agree. It's the space museum moment kind of, well, as I say that, my mind, you're going to say the port scene, aren't you? As I say that, my mind goes immediately to the porch scene, which, like, to me, that conversation is at the heart not only of this season,

but this entire story going backwards in time and eventually forwards in time, we will keep coming back to this exchange between these two characters. I know that you said, a lot of the answers to questions about changes would come down the same thing but that scene that porch scene comes right at the end of the story for game players and it is such a huge revelation for for game players that Ellie had this information um were you concerned it all about what it would do to the way you were telling the story to bring it forward yes because I'm neurotic and I'm concerned about everything but It wasn't like a very tough decision because even though we were making the game, for a long time, that scene was at a different spot at the game.

And as we were finishing production, I'm sure, Hallie, you remember this. It was just like kind of jumping around and we didn't know where it should land. And again, this speaks to just how collaborative all these things are. It was the editorial team that like experimented with putting it at the end. And I don't want to say the part that it ends up in because that's a big spoiler for people who are only. watching the show, but it felt appropriate for that. And this, again, comes back to how the story is being delivered. It felt there's all these setups that get paid off in this scene.

And to wait years, potentially, to eventually see the scene would have been too long. And we were all worried it would lose its impact, especially because it's required for this Ellie part of the journey. So therefore, it was a conversation. We wrestled with it for a little bit. but we really quickly, within a day of a conversation, said, yeah, it feels appropriate to leave it in this season. Another interesting, the way that that port scene is book-ended by this opening sequence

where we get young Joel's POV. And I think, I thought that was really interesting. I mean, absolutely crushed me, killed me. But thank you for that. More heartbreak. But I think it's really interesting because so many of these Joel flashbacks in the game are positioned as Ellie Memories. And then we have this moment that Ellie was not present for, this Austin, Texas flashback.

And I was wondering, you know, if that changed the way you were thinking about this depiction, this story you were weaving of Joel or what was the thinky behind, including that cold open. You make an interesting observation in that in the game, you are Ellie in those flashbacks. So they're very much Ellie's point of view. This episode, with some exceptions, for the most part, is Joel's point of view. if you look at, you know, even when the whole Eugene sequence were with Joel the whole time and only get at least perspective much later. This started with a conversation we had early on this season.

I think, if I remember correctly, Craig was like, oh, wouldn't it be cool to like being like a playground and see Joel hit someone that was like bugging Tommy or something. And I thought that was such a fascinating thought process. because we've never gone that far back in our discussions of Joel. But it makes so much sense because the story is about parents and children and unconditional love. And the kind of, I'm going to ramble for a bit. But, you know, in the season, when Joel dies, he's still with us because he's a part of Ellie now. He's imparted so much of himself into Ellie. And sometimes he comes across as he would be.

And sometimes it's her trying to be him like when she tortures Nora. And she is not him. And we will see the consequence of that going forward that to ask the question of like, well, where did Joel's programming come from? And we started talking a lot about this dad. And originally this was a much longer sequence when we were with the two kids. You saw the drug deal go down. You saw the fight. We even had versions where we saw the dad actually hit them.

And then we just kept stripping it down and stripping it down and stripping it down. And then it felt like you could understand all those things without seeing them. But this moment is important because instead of hitting his son, he's saying, this time it was different. This time when you used violence, it was to protect your tribe. It was to protect your brother. Maybe now you understand me. Maybe now you understand why I behaved that way I did. But he takes it even further because he says, I don't even know if I've done the right thing.

I just know I did it a little better than my dad. At least I think I did. And my hope is that you will be even better than me. And that idea of not only generational trauma, but generational hope and repair. was a really cool kind of concept and it really helped tie it to their final conversation on that porch. Hallie, do any thoughts on that?

I mean, I agree with everything that. In my experience, as being a dad. No, I agree. Don't say you're a dad. That's very controversial. I know. I don't even, yeah. Oh, right.

Yeah, yeah. What drama? No, I will just add that to me, I think a thing that it also really juices for us when you're looking at it at the season more holistically and at the show more holistically, right? It gives, it loads Ellie with spiritual ammo, right? It gives her this option that you can, Joel does rise above his programming and become a better

person for Ellie, right? Like, you can't imagine Joel before Ellie going to therapy. You can't picture him being willing to step outside of his comfort zone and take these really big leaps. but for his love for Ellie, he does. Right. And so as we're watching Ellie struggle, and we know how strong a person Joel is,

we know that potentially there's something in Ellie that could grow as well. And so it gives us this thing to root for, I think. And it was an excuse to work with the great Tony Dalton. Oh, Tony Dalton. Yeah. I lost my marbles when I saw him show up. I will tell you,

Holly, I don't know if you listen to the work that I do with Mallory Rubin, but I did text. I was like, she hadn't watched the episode. I was like, I need to let you know that Tony Tolton is in this episode. Good, good. Such a fan. It's one of those things that I can't believe it has remained a secret. I guess we're a few days out. I hope it isn't the secret until Sunday.

My lips are sealed. Can you dig into your interpretation of a line like Ellie's where she says, I think I knew already I knew this whole time, Hall, you're nodding aggressively. Do you want to start? Sure. You know, we, as you pointed out earlier, we did restructure part of this sequence, and it is different from the game. And so what you're experiencing at the end of the Eugene sequence is Ellie's confirmation, right? She gets this, she sees Joel lie and the ease with which he lies, and she recognizes the face he makes, right? And, oh my God, I just totally lost my train of that.

May I jump in? Please, thank you. And then I'll interrupt you later. Well, maybe my interpretation is different than Halleys. But for me, it's like, Ellie is so smart. I don't think she's ever fully believed this lie. Yeah. I think she has known from the get-go.

She just kind of made this deal with herself. I'm going to get past this. I'm going to believe it. I'm choosing to believe him and let's move on. And over the course of, you know, this episode, you're seeing that there's all this conflict, like her getting a tattoo, her wanting to go on patrols, like her with cat, her wanting to move out. And they get past all of it. And the relationship still deteriorates because it's not about any one of those things.

It's about the slide that she just cannot get past. It just keeps eating away at her. And I'm sure every death in Jackson by some person, that got infected is a reminder that, wait, if that's a lie, then this person could be alive. I wanted to add, as the sort of body stack up at Jackson, I was thinking about this, in terms of watching them drag Eugene's body back to Jackson and the visual parallel of Jesse dragging Joel's body back into Jackson. And I'm sure this is just standard operating procedure. We wrap the body. we pull it by a rope.

But of course, nothing's accidental inside of television. So I was wondering, Neil, as the director of this episode, if you could talk about that visual parallel and maybe any other sort of visual parallels that you were excited to put inside of this episode. Oh, let me see if I can remember. For sure, that one. And initially, when we thought of that one,

they're like, oh, they would drag it the same exact way. And then I'm like, wait a minute, we don't have snow. There will be nothing but pulp by the time they arrive at Jackson. So that's where we came up on the day. day or like a few days before shooting with that idea of that sled, but really wanted to mirror what we've done in 202. This was Hallie's idea, but in that opening scene where we see Joel's dad, his watch is Joel's watch.

So there's a parallel there. Oh man, now I'm blanking on the rest of them. Good. I'll pause there. If more come to mind. I'll jump in. Holly, I am a massive fan of Westworld. I spent so much time thinking about Westworld when I covered it for years.

I love the episodes that you worked on in season one. I wanted to ask you, they have so much to do with the concepts of memory and PTSD and trauma and identity. And I was wondering if you could talk about how, if at all, you applied your insights into those spheres. into working on this game and how that feeds into this episode? Sure. Well, I have PTSD. And so it's something that I've been reconciling with and living with for a long time and has some slightly inconvenient side effects. And what I have always wanted out of my work and what I try and bring to the projects

that I work on and collaborate on is an authenticity to that experience, but also a, I think it's very easy for people to say bad things have happened to me and now I'm a victim. And I think what we need to be seeing more in storytelling and especially storytelling for women, but really for everybody, is how can we reframe ourselves as heroes through the difficult things that we go through? Because so much of life is outside of our control. Right. And we do feel so powerless so often. And I think PTSD is something that a lot of people can relate to, whether you have had like a single very big trauma or if you've had C-PTSD, if you've had sort of

long trauma. But it is hard to be a person, right? And so so much of it is how we tell our own stories. And so to me, that's something that I've been really trying to infuse in the characters I work on who exist in really traumatic spaces. And I tend to work in stories that involve a lot of sex and violence. So I find this characters frequently. Neil, you brought Hallie on to work on the second game, the sequel of the game. What was it a no-brainer to bring her on to work on the season of television? What was that collaboration like for you? To me, it was a no-brainer.

It was like bringing Gustavo Santolai on to do the music. It's like Halle is part of the DNA of the story. She had to be part of the season. I really missed working with Halle because we hadn't written together since. rewrote on the game on Las of Us Part 2. And it was, you know, she's read some of my work. I've read some of her. We've given each other notes and stuff just because we've remained friends.

But I didn't realize how much I missed it, how much I missed this collaboration. It was kind of really nice just going back into it. And like, just almost reliving the trauma of making that game. I say trauma just because I don't mean that. It was just, it was a very difficult game to make it to very live. long time. And it was nice to revisit these characters, these moments that have just meant so much to us. Aww. That's the nicest I've ever going to be seen. That's it. That's all you get. I think it's interesting that you put it that way because we've been talking a lot about this idea of

the way that this series gives you and Gustavo and other people who worked on the game, this opportunity to sort of retell or rework elements of your own. story. And I'm curious what that process has been like for you, this idea of taking another pass at a story that you already told till masterfully and thinking about it all over again. Yeah, I can say for me, it was really, really exciting. You know, Neil and I filled the volume of the space we were given for the game. We could have kept going. We could have kept iterating. We could have found more depth and more depth and more depth, but ultimately deadlines come. And so it was really, and because of the way that games are built, you are locked into certain POVs, right?

You're locked into in the game, you're locked into Ellie Abby and Joel. And so getting a chance to dimensionalize and see more deeply characters that we didn't get to experience in the same way in the game was really exciting. I also, I also think for, for me, like getting to work with, with fresh eyes with someone like Craig who has so much experience with structure and brings so much experience to the table really allowed us to investigate all of the, all of the ideas that we had on the table. And Neil and I are really not precious about stuff. Like anything that anything is subject to being examined. So it was just a really fun explore, I would say for me. Neil, fun explore for you? Fun explore. For me,

It's just I like, I love this collaboration. I love what I do at Nottie Dog. I get to be surprised every day by really talented artists and engineers. And they often plus things in a way that's much better than anything I could come up with on my own. So to have this collaboration with Craig with a whole new set of people that many of which were fans of the game and then to see how they interpret the material, how does Bella interpret Ellie? How does Paige reinterpret Joel? And to me, when I was, especially when I was directing this episode, I think a lot about, I tend to just not think too much about the audience because I find it doesn't lead to interesting choices.

But I think a lot about everybody that has poured their heart and soul into the game and the show. And I want to make sure they are extremely proud of what we do. But the two people I had like at the forefront of my mind, especially like when I was watching that, Port Sheen were Troy Baker and Ashley Johnson because they were my partners in helping coming up with those characters. And I wanted to make sure that even though now someone is like borrowing it from them, you know, it's it will always be theirs because they are the original versions of it. And I find I had just had lunch with Ashley and I was talking to her about it.

But I was like, I hope when they watch it, they are as proud of it as I am. I love thinking about that way because I, watched, you know, right before we hopped on, actually, I watched the porch scene in your episode, then I watched the scene from the video game, and then I watched the scene from the episode again to sort of just really parse what was added and what was, you know, there's some things that are exactly word for word, but something that struck me was actually more performance-based, like that Pedro's, uh, Joel is so much more emotional. Troy is emotional, and then Pedro's like, just this sort of open wound in, in that scene.

Can you talk about any conversations you had with him about that depiction of Joel? Not too much because I tend to, those conversations sometimes are private and I like to keep them private. But it was really important for me to, I didn't rewatch the scene before directing this. I wanted to like almost like move past it as much as possible because I didn't want, for example, one of the things I noticed right off the bat is how the way Troy leaned on the railing and Pedro didn't. And I didn't want to ask Pedro to lean on the railing, even like something again, it just felt a little off. But I was like, it was important that this is their version of these characters. This is their version of this conversation of this conflict. This is why you bring artists on board not to copy and duplicate this other thing.

Like how horrible would it have been if Heath Ledger copied Jack Nicholson or something? It's like they're both brilliant jokers, just like I believe. these are both brilliant versions of Joel. And I love that this version of Joel was more vulnerable. I love that this version of Joel actually says, I love you. You get that from both of them. And it's just those little differences, I think, that make it special and make it stand on its own. I'm going to toss this question to you, Halley, but either of you are welcome to answer it.

There's been this interesting conversation around this season about Ellie's trajectory, emotional trajectory in this season and this idea of, you know, we've been talking a lot on the podcast of this idea of who Ellie is alone versus who she is around Dina and whether game players feel like this is an Ellie that they recognize or and then show watchers are like, hey, I'm really enjoying this evolution of this young woman. And I was curious, Hallie, if you have any thoughts about either Bella's interpretation or the way in which you want to pace Ellie's progress through the story. Yeah, I think, you know, as Neil said before, we've been taking them as different pieces, right?

So what was right for the game is not necessarily right for the TV show and what is right for Ashley's performance is not necessarily right for Bella's performance. What I find really moving about Bella's performance is how much repression you can feel underneath everything, underneath all of these scenes, right? But at the same time, you don't have this gameplay of depression, right, between these crackling moments of beauty that you have in the game. You have to live in these short interstitial scenes. And to me, having, having Dina feel like this bright, beautiful, hopeful thing in Ellie's life is really, really important because it shows the audience the life Ellie could have if she can figure out how to heal in time. How to heal just enough, just in time. And so you need, as much as Joel's death is devastating, you need to have that balance of lightness, right? You need that museum sequence. You need that moment of singing, aha, because you need to believe that there are things for

Ellie to fight for. There are reasons for Ellie to heal. You're also right in that this version of Ellie does a better job of hiding when she's upset, when there's the darker things kind of happening behind her eyes. And you could see it in this episode. When she sees the fireflies, you see her expression shift. And then Joel's like saying, are you okay? And she puts on this big grin, like nothing just happened.

And she walks on. I think she's more afraid to just let people in, including Joel. But that's why that poor scene is like, this is the characters that they're raw. And they're just letting everything out. Yeah. A way of expressing yourself beyond actually being honest and vulnerable. with your own words is through music. And of course, there is an incredible musical moment.

I love any musical moment in anything ever. But this incredible moment with Pedro and the guitar, I'm not going to ask you, once again, to divulge any secrets of the conversations you had with Pedro. But what was it? I know this was an important thing. I know you were like, let's break the premise of the timeline of the universe

in order to include this Pearl Jam song. What was it like? I think you guys refer to it as a, space time continues. Yes. I might have said that. What is it, what was it, why was it so important to have this particular song and this, and sung by this character in this moment?

Look, I'm biased because Pearl Jam is my favorite band of all time. And that song in particular is song that I used to sing to my daughter when she was very young. So it was just, it's just already so charged for me for all those reasons. But I try whenever I feel biased to say, let me ignore all that. We have this different timeline. I really don't want to honor this. Let's go with a different song.

And then, you know, as we're kind of getting closer to shooting it, it just didn't feel right. It just like, I'm like, okay, we got the technical part of our timeline right, but their emotional part doesn't feel the same. And, you know, I started checking in with Hallie and Craig and even actors. And everyone slowly came around to like, it should be future days. There's something about the lyrics and just the feeling of the song. It's a little on the nose, but it also works.

It also really works for like, you know, if Joel has to pick one song to think to Ellie, it kind of gets to the core of what she was to him, which was like the second chance at being a dad, the second chance at having this daughter. And that idea of like, if he ever wore to lose her, he would lose himself. And he, you know, he lived throughout his life and he didn't lose her. But now she has lost him. And is she losing herself in this process? And, you know, that's TBD. Howley as a father of daughters? No, just kidding. They call me daddy.

What did this musical moment mean to you? Oh, I love this moment. You know, I, yeah, again, you struggle with the space-time continuum. You want to be respectful. But I think there are certain moments to me in the game that are really important, right? That feel very loudly of the game and of the piece that we're adapting. And that guitar scene at the beginning of the game is one of them. It is this moment where Joel allows Ellie to look at him without looking back.

I will say, without divulging too much of my conversation with the actors, Pedro was very nervous. And what I told him from the get-go is like, don't copy Troy. This must be your own version. And I like that he landed on this kind of Johnny. cast more kind of spoken thing of it. And he made it his own and it's equally beautiful and different. My dad always used to call that Rex Harrison in your way through a song. Like Rex Harrison and my fair lady likes to talk sing.

And I loved it. It reminds me of one of my favorite musical moments in television, which is Justin Thorese singing Homer Bound and leftovers. And it's similarly like it's so emotionally like technically not the most perfect thing you've ever heard, but like emotionally just like completely. Can I ask you one last quick question before we have to go? You've already mentioned sort of the nature of this game you've created is about engendering empathy and video games because you can play as the characters have this mechanic built into them

that allows you to experience that. And I'm just curious, what's the best way, let's leave the challenges aside. What is the best way you found to access? that inside of the medium of television? I think there's one that runs parallel to it, which is point of view. That, you know, there's certain ways you shoot things and certain ways you reveal information. That's more from one character's perspective versus another that generally you start like connecting with that character and rooting for them.

So that's been kind of in the back of our mind, especially as I know if you've watched the second game, as you know where this is going. But point of view. to me i'm going to take it from more of a narrative angle but i to me the the characters that get to me the fastest are the ones that um and maybe this goes back to sort of the PTSD question but the ones that that uh can't get away from their vulnerability or their shame and that you see that early because that is such a human thing and that is the thing that we hide and that is like that is the the thing that we spend all day kind of pretext that you see that early and that is like that is the

the thing that we spend all day kind of And so as soon as somebody, right, it's like, it's what Hannibal Lecter says to, to Cleary Starling. It's like, you told me about Miggs. So we're good. Like, as soon as you get to the, to the truth, to the vulnerable truth, I think we are reminded that we're all so similar. Perfect. Place to end. Thank you both so much for the chat. I really, really appreciate it. Thank you so much. Let's, let's do it again and make it longer. I would love that. So welcome to spoiler section. This is the spoilers. Spoiler section of the podcast. You have been warned. Here you are in it with us. We have the finale coming up. This is the end of the season. We assume we know where it's ending, you know, in the theater. Probably Jesse's not going to make it out of the season. Yeah. They could flip it. We talked about this last week. Yeah. They could change those tradeoffs, the deaths a little bit if they would like. Yeah. It's true. Okay. So in the spoiler section, though, I don't. do you want to talk about a conversation that's been, you know, buzzing through the internet this week, which is this question of how many seasons should the last of us be? Yeah. Right. Because Craig Mason gave an interview to Collider where he said, I'm not sure that it will necessarily be true for season three.

And that he was like, this season is so focused on Joel's death. We couldn't really, we like did these little mini side seraphite story, mini side WLF story, but like really wanted to keep it focused on Joel and Ellie. In season three, I think Mazin is much more interested in alongside, again, you're in the spoiler section, the Abbey storyline, the Three Days in Seattle storyline, et cetera, et cetera. He's interested in fleshing that out with even more sort of serified information, et cetera. Neil said in a different interview that the prophet is someone that they're extremely interested in sort of spending time and who was she. Love that. So more like seraphite lore to sort of flesh out. And if they do that, if they take Abby day one through three and also use that time to give us a bunch of seraphite lore, is Santa Barbara, et cetera, all this other stuff, a fourth season of this show.

I'm worried. I mean, they both said almost certainly season three is more episodes. Great news. Love it. Am I a little worried about dragging this out into a fourth season? A little bit, but like maybe not if we're getting more of this. Like Neil has said very firmly, we're not going to be on the end of the game. The game ends.

That's where the story ends. We're not going into the future beyond that. That's it. But fleshing out with more Bill and Frank-esque sort of storytelling along the way, going down the profit path, et cetera, et cetera. That is interesting to me. but like I don't ever want this show to overstay. It's welcome.

Which is silly to say about three episodes versus four episodes. What do you think, Rob Mahoney? I love this game. And I would say one of the fair and somewhat valid criticisms of the game is that like its themes are what they are and it hammers them and hammers them. And it's kind of circling these same ideas from both perspectives. And I think the reason the game works is because you're getting the variety of perspectives. but the more you drag out that messaging,

the more you risk it feeling repetitive for some people. And so I would be in favor of a consolidated type of storytelling as far as the number of seasons go. Or if you're going to do it, please, like, I never thought I would say this, squid game this shit and do like a six-month release window. Like you can call it two seasons, you can call it half seasons,

whatever you want, but like parcel it out in a way where people are going to be able to revisit the story more quickly and not have to go Abby slash WLF slash seraphite slash profit story and then ultimately get Santa Barbara as a distant season years and years from now. I just, I don't know that the patience is going to be there for that kind of thing. Yeah, I'm a little worried about that. But the profit thing is very exciting though, Joe. Yeah, I mean, the fact that they changed the prophet mural from like an older white woman to like a slightly younger looking to my eyes like black woman.

Oh, I forgot that we'd already seen her. to me makes me feel like they have someone or something in mind in that intentional change. So I was always expecting that we would get some, but it seemed from what Neil said in, again, a different interview, not our interview. It sounds like, you know, we could get a whole like profit episode. And so a whole episode with a slightly different theme of like not, you know, the cycle of violence theme, but sort of like, how does someone's good. intentions of leadership, you know, mutate and corrode into the strict, violent sect of the seraphites that we meet. You know, that's this interesting story to tell. I would love it. I think we might need to get cracking on the wish casting front. I don't know, I don't know who

the ideal profit would be. The first time you said it before you nailed down that the demographics have changed, I'm like, that's got Laura Dern written all over it. Like, give me Laura Dern in this episode. Now it's like, what's Gina Torres up to? You know, is she available? Genuinely, I also thought Gina Torres. I really like that. Maybe she's, I want to say maybe she's played a similarly like mysterious. Is she, are you thinking about Angel? I think, yeah, I was I said, I think an angel. What is she, is she a, is she a ghost? Is she a God, she's something of like, wispy speaking and riddles kind of ethereal presence. And I'm like, that that tracks to me. Yeah, she might, is she suiting right now?

She suits L.A. Couldn't tell you. Is she in that show? I don't know. Not prestige TV, not concerned with it. Gina Torres, I'm sure Neil and Craig have someone brilliant in mind. Without a doubt. And, you know, I'm, I'm interested.

I am a little worried about fourth season. Yes. Because unlike, I just always want things to end strong. and welcomed and not sort of stretched and strange. So I'm sure they have a plan. They've delivered a banger episode this week. It's very good. Out their writing.

But yeah, just on my mind. Okay. Well, let's flip the premise on its head a little bit, Joe. We asked earlier this season, how much Caitlin Deaver were we going to get this season. How much Bella Ramsey do we get next season? If we're going to do mostly Abbey's story with these kind of side avenues,

tales from the Black Frater style. Like if we're going to have all these little vignette stories, are we going to see much of Ellie at all, other than the, like, the few times that Abby kind of bumps into her? I think maybe not. And maybe Bella gets to go to, like, the Maldives and turn off their internet and just, like, enjoy themselves. Good work if you can get it.

But, again, all the more reason, like, please just, like, break it up however you want. Shoot it. Yeah. Like, write it. shoot it and then you can you can distribute as you like but like make it a contained thing whatever the next stage of the story is because like I mean and I don't want to hop it up this story into three parts like I just I fundamentally don't want that no one wants to hop it up anything

uh Rob Moni let's let's be clear about that okay um well that has done it for us for this week uh excreting anal glands and everything else thank you for all all of your emails. This is your brain on trumes at gmail.com or press each TV at Spotify. We'll be back with your friends and neighbors this week. Another poker face check-in at some point, probably. And we've got some other shows on the horizon that we're quite excited about to check in on. I've heard that Owen Wilson is playing golf for Apple TV.

And that thrills me honestly, personally, I'm thrilled by that. Yeah, I was asking how much Bella Ramsey we were going to get? The question Joe is, how much Tamalphon are we going to get on stick? That's really what my heart wants to know. It's a great question. As just like the world's number one tin cup enthusiast, I just am really excited for disaster people playing golf. It's a really fun genre, and I'm glad that we're here for it.

We will see you soon. Thank you to Donnie Beacham for his production work on this episode, and thank you to Justin Sales always for, you know, being the daddy of the feed. We appreciate you so much, Justin. and we will see you all soon. Bye. This episode is brought to you by Netflix's remarkably bright creatures. What if a Pacific octopus held the key to a mystery that could heal your heart?

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