The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘The Last of Us’ Season 1 Finale Recap

Episode Date: March 13, 2023

Charles and Van share their instant reactions to the Season 1 finale of ‘The Last of Us.’ They discuss how the show stuck the landing in its final episode before reflecting on the season in its entirety. Later, they close out by debating where it ranks among HBO’s current slate of prestige dramas. Hosts: Charles Holmes and Van Lathan Producer: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Erica Ramirez, founder of Ili and hosts of What About Your Friends? A brand new show on The Ringer Podcast Network dedicated to the many lives of friendship and how it's portrayed in pop culture. Every Wednesday on the Ringer dish feed, I'll be talking with my best friend, Stephen Othello, and your favorites from within the Ringer and beyond about friendships on TV and movies, pop culture, and our real lives. So join me every Wednesday on the Ringer dish feed where we try to answer the question TLCS back in the day. What about your friends? Welcome to the Prestige TV podcast, a show where it's not time that heals all of our wounds.

I'm Charles Holmes. He's Van Lathen. Together, we're known as the Midnight Boys. Pugh, Pew! And I can't believe what I'm saying this, Van. But we're here talking about the last episode of The Last of Us for the foreseeable future, man. Can you believe our journey is soon coming to an end like Joel and Ellie? What a series. What a first season of television. We've walked through. the wilderness with lone wolf and cub. Lone wolf and cub. The only thing Pedro Pascal has left to do is usher a black cub into adulthood.

He has a little white woman as a baby alien, a baby Yoda. Now he just needs a black child. He just needs a black child. He needs, there needs to be a show called Max and Jamal. And it's about, it's about an older white man. I'm a young black boy that get stranded in the Australian outback. Pedro's not white.

Well, he's not white, but he's white-ish. You know what I mean? Just listen. He could play white, and he's done it before, so chill. So, and they're walking through the Australian outback. And he's been out there for a while, right? And, you know, he knows the layer of the land, but the little black kid is on a school trip from Harlem.

and he's all, uh-uh, and he's going down there for Australia, and he has to show him the ways of the outback, you know, is that that's the last thing for Pedro to do. And then he has to trifecta of lone wolf and cub, because we need to see him with a black kid at this point. He's got to, he's got to usher a black kid and help them come of age. That's it. That's the last thing.

He's the man. Speaking, but speaking of black kids, I feel like lone wolf and cub, I feel like I'm sad because Kai was our little cub. That has become a wolf over the course of these past, Nine episodes, you know? He was like the first Kai's corner. I remember it like it's yesterday. When I hopped on this call today, he's like, I don't fucking need y'all, all right?

I know what happens in the second game. Get y'all old ass out of me. Yeah. Kai is now, it's crazy because I expect Kai now to try a steak at a restaurant. You know, Kai has graduated from chicken fingers. He's probably going to eat some pasta. I could even, I could trust Kai right now to actually order off the wine list. Instead of getting an orange soda.

But now, it's been a hell of a season. And let's be honest, it's been a fantastic season of not just television, but of podcasting for us, too. We did have that one pod where all we did was tell stories about our personal lives. But now, you know, we're refocused. Well, with that out of the way, let's get into this season finale of phenomenal television. Look for the light, directed by Ali Abasi, written by Craig Mason and Neil Druckman. We flash back to a pregnant woman who, Swet Alert, is Ellie's mom running from a clicker in the woods. As she escapes the trees, she finds a house where she has a baby, but is attacked by a clicker and bitten.

In the present, Joel is worried about bordering on a comatose Ellie as she tries to connect with her through Boggle and the promise of teaching her guitar. Ellie and Joel finally make it to their destination and see a family of giraffes. It's here that Joel reveals much of his backstory that he almost committed suicide after Sarah's death and that Ellie is the one who helped him heal from that loss. Joel and Ellie are then ambushed by the fireflies and separated. Marlene informs Joel that Ellie is being prepped for surgery and that will most likely kill her. And we also learn in a flashback that Marlene is the one who killed Ellie's mother who was

about to turn. And Ellie's mother made Marlene promise that she would take care of her. As Joel is escorted out of the hospital in the present, he steals a gun from a firefly and goes on a rampage to save Ellie. Before he can leave the hospital with Ellie's body, he's stopped by Marlene, who asked him to reconsider his choice. Joel kills Marlene because he knows

she'll never stop coming after Ellie, and in the car back to Tommy's group, Ellie asked Joel what happened, and is suspicious of his answer. Before they get back to Tommy settlement, Ellie makes Joel swear that everything he said about the fireflies was true. Joel swears, but we see in Ellie's face,

a hint of doubt. And now, with all of that out of the way, we have already remarked throughout this season that The Last of Us is one of the most remarkable first seasons of television. Immediate reactions after this finale, and to you, Van, did it stick the landing?

Absolutely, it stuck the landing. I thought it stuck the landing and did one of those things where you put your hands out and you wait for the judge's scores to come in. It was a Simone Biles type episode. Did you call her Samoan? No, Simone. I don't know why I felt like you said

Samoan Biles. I was like, maybe I did say, well, it's Simone. I thought you were going to say it was a Samoan something. I was like, shout out to my Samoans. What do they do?

Okay. So, yeah, to me, Simone or Samoan Biles' landing stick. And one of the reasons why was because it managed to complete competing narratives, which is hard to do with a story with two main characters. Ellie went forward, Joel went backwards, in my opinion. Not backwards.

Let me explain this. By the time we get to the end of this, Ellie is a grown-up. Ellie starts out a plucky wide-eyed kid, but at the end of this, brilliantly played by Bella Ramsey, the demeanor that she has, the fact that she is a little sullen, that spark of innocence that we've seen in her,

that it's gone. Ellie's innocence was obvious even when she wasn't trying to be innocent. The fact that she didn't know as much was just bleeding through her pores. She's seen it now. And when you watch this episode, her eyes trail off.

She seems a little disconnected sometimes. She seems like she has learned something about the world that she can't unlearn. Joel, on the other hand, is almost full of wonderment in the depth of his love for Ellie. He didn't realize that he could love this much again. He didn't.

And he is trying. It's like almost when you're with one of your kids or your little nephews and you see that they're going through their teenage, angsty, whatever, and you're trying to make them have a good time. You're trying that you want them made. Don't you want to see this? Remember this? Remember that?

Well, like, you care about what it is that they're feeling. You know that they don't have as many seconds and minutes and hours in the world as they think that they do. And you want them, hey, cheer up. It's not all that bad. It's blah, blah, blah, blah. Joel is doing that now. Not because he wants to make it easy on himself as they're traveling. He's doing it because he cares how she feels.

And that is something that we hadn't really seen in the past. At first, it was all about utility. Do what I say. Do this because it makes it easier for us to get to the next point. Now, he doesn't care about what the next point is. He cares about Ellie and to see her learn what a disjointed, dystopian, fucked up place the world is. And for him to learn how beautiful the world can still be

because of his relationship with her has been really masterfully. done over the last nine episodes, and it's really, really drilled home in this last one. Oh, man, I couldn't, I couldn't agree more. I think the genius of this finale is that what Joel and Ellie wanted at the beginning, whether they knew it or not, has now been flipped. Because Ellie, throughout this entire season, she's looking for a father figure. She's looking for a family. She's looking for something in Joel that he cannot give her at that point. and Joel, whether he knows it or not, is trying to find his way through the loss of Sarah.

There's a part of his humanity that he's pushed aside. And I think by the end of this episode, by the time that Joel is ready to be a father, when he wants to play bog or when he wants to teach her the guitar, just the fact that the guitar represents a life of like, what is music to us? You don't need music to survive physically, but emotionally and spiritually you do.

It's something that you do to spiritually lift you up. Just have a better life. I just have a better life. That's what all is. We're now seeing an Ellie who, honestly is an adult. She doesn't need that father figure anymore. Or at least she doesn't feel as if the relationship is the same thing anymore. And that's actually what was sad about this, is that I think some of the best storytelling

depicts when it's too late. And I think that's so true to life. Like, I've seen people in my life when a father is finally read. ready to be a father, the child is not always ready to be a son or daughter. You see that a lot when it's just like, you see, it's not just fathers, fathers, fathers, mothers, any type of parental figure who has not been in the picture emotionally or physically sometimes when they decide, all right, I'm ready to do the parenting thing. The child is not always ready to be parented.

And that was what broke my heart because Ellie, that level of innocence has been robbed from her. And I was like, this is a, it was a great hour of television, but such a heartbreaking moment to be like, they don't get a happy ending. There are three aspects of parenting that are represented in this episode. Okay. Three different aspects of parenting that are represented.

One is connection. That is obviously through Joel. Joel and Ellie have finally connected. Joel and Ellie are finally to the point to where Joel can't lose her. aspect of parenting. The other is sacrifice. And that comes from Ellie's mother at the beginning. That scene of her having, having to have the baby right there while being attacked by a zombie. That is something I've legit, never seen in zombie fair before. So they managed to do something really incredible. I'm sure somebody has seen it somewhere. Oh, even just the night, holding the knife to her neck,

knowing that I need to take care of this baby until the fireflies come. to help. But at any point, I need to be willing to kill myself. To your point, I'm like, I've never seen that, like, that choice done before in that way, which is, to your point, amazing.

Right. And the third one is actually the most controversial one, and it's duty. And that is displayed by the leader of the fireflies because she has a duty to Ellie's mother to look after. after Ellie and keep Ellie safe. When she gives the baby to her, she says,

hey, I can't, I can't take the baby. I can't. She goes, no, you have to. Take the baby. Duty. Duty to look after Ellie. But then she also has a competing duty to what she believes to be

the freedom and health of the entire world. And we see her submitting to that duty throughout this episode and at the end. So Ellie's entire life, is really, in my opinion, made up through the three perspectives of these different people who at some point have endeavored to keep her safe for whatever reason. And it's interesting that when she reaches her adulthood in this story, when she reaches her adulthood, which is essentially the end of her innocence. Now, her worth to the world is also being

litigated because that's what happens when you grow up. When you're a kid, we still don't know how much you're going to be worth to society. So we try to keep your options open, right? But when you're an adult, we pretty much know. And so now we're trying to tell you like what it is that you need to do. You didn't make it. to the NBA. You didn't go to Harvard. You're not going to become the president. So how are you going to be productive in the world? As Ellie becomes an adult in this episode, as she essentially loses the rest of her innocence, the question is now, does she go forward to do something else? Or does she fulfill her greatest worth to the world, which unfortunately would be to dead the cordyceps out of her brain and help to save humanity? So I think the interesting thing about this is that we kind of talked about the religious symbolism going out through this. And you see, to your point, not only three types of parenting, but you see three different types of parents. You see the Mary figure in Ellie's mother.

But I was very interested about the differences between Joel and Marlene in this episode, where Marlene is tasked by Ellie's mother to say, to help raise and save Ellie. Similar to how Tess was like to Joel, I need you to do this. You need to complete this mission for me. And it was very interesting to see how Marlene and Joel grew and matured through that initial sacrifice of taking care of this child,

where Marlene gets Ellie to the point where she's an adult and she makes the calculus now of, hey, her death is worth, this one death is worth the millions of lives it will save. while Joel has to make a decision of it's Ellie's choice, where the thing that was almost scary is that Joel does know in that moment what choice Ellie would have made because he gives her the option. He's like, we can just turn back now.

We don't have to keep listening to tests. We can go back to Tommy's settlement. We can live a good life. Right. In that moment, she makes the adult decision. She's like, what was this all for? We need to see this through. Like, this is, there's too much sacrifice.

There's too much writing on it. Ellie makes this big sacrifice. Honestly, one of the biggest sacrifices we've seen from her this whole season. And it's Joel who becomes almost a petulant child. I don't think he made the wrong decision. But he's like, fuck this. Fuck the world. Fuck what all of y'all are saying.

I'm being selfish now. I'm being a father. I'm being a parent. I'm going to do whatever it takes to save Ellie. And like that was morally, I'm like, Marlene and Joel are not wrong in this. They both have perspectives. I wanted to know what you think of, like, that central tension of what do you do in that moment?

Well, that's what parents do, right? Parents get to a point to where they raise these kids and then it becomes about the parent and their connection with the kid, right? How many parents want their kids to go away for college? You know what I mean? They want, hey, stay close to home. We'll be able to hang out. You'll be able to come here because by this time, your kid is not some burden that you have to keep safe

and make sure they don't eat paint. By this time, they are a person that you like hanging out with. They are like, you know, you like to go and watch them do stuff. You like having them around. Because what we don't really talk about with kids, and I'm sorry to say this, but like they're useless for like a long period of time. Like you just have to. You just give.

Like it's like an endless pay of like you give love. You give attention. You give all of these things. And like, yes, you get things back on conditional love. But it's not until they're an adult. and they can have conversations with you. You're like, oh, this is someone I actually want to be around. One day, I'm like, hey, with my nephews.

I'm like, oh, man, he's kind of cool, bro. I kick it out to him on the wing and he makes the shot. I'm like, goddamn, you could shoot the ball. And now I'm like, you know, hit you up. Hey, Uncle Van, what you want? Nothing, dog, I miss you. You know what I mean? And so you want to be around them.

Marlene doesn't have that same relationship with that lady. She's duty-bound. She's duty bound. She sees Ellie and Ellie's sacrifice as something that is going to allow other people to have that same sort of connection with their kids in a different way. You have to think about this, right? You have to think about what it is that she's fighting for. She's fighting for a version of society where people are free,

where people have agency. and they will never be truly free and never have true agency as long as they are under the thumb of the greatest oppressor in the world and that is, of course, cordyceps. So as much as the fireflies

have to fight Fedra, who are the jackboots of this society, they also have to fight the real oppressor, the real fascist, of this world, and that is cordyceps. Okay? And so she's been in the mode of mission accomplishment of fighting against oppression for so long,

and she's had to sacrifice so much that Ellie is just another thing to sacrifice to get to this point of freedom that she feels like she has to have. So she's been there for so long that she hasn't really even see Ellie. she's never heard any Will Livingston pun jokes you know she's never been in the mall with Ellie

you know none of that stuff has ever happened Ellie is a soldier that has the opportunity to make the greatest sacrifice in the greatest war of humanity that's the way she's looking at it's a symbol she's no longer a person she is a representation of a future that Marlene has envisioned that to Joel's point when he's lying to Ellie we don't know if

Ellie is the cure and I think that's his fear as a parent, which is like the fear of most parents being like my son or daughter is about to make this great sacrifice and what if it's for nothing. Right. Well, I mean, we don't know if Ellie is the cure, but shit, we know we got to try, you know. So then I'll ask you this. This is hard. This is hard. Where do you fall between Marlene and Joel? Because I do think Joel has a point where it's like, even though it's hinted at that we know what decision Ellie would make. It's not right to take that decision away from her.

Marlene never gave her the option to be like, hey, you have an opportunity to sacrifice yourself for humanity. She makes that decision for Ellie in the same way that most people, her entire life, have been making decisions for her, whether that's Fedra, whether that's Joel, Tess. I do side with Joel, even though the body cat was ridiculous. No, I side with Joe. I side with Joe because, you know, Joel turned into,

Captain America in this episode. You know, Captain America and in game, Vision's there. And it's like, you know, just fuck over Vision and we win. You know, Captain America's like, we don't trade lives. And I'm like, all right, if Cap said that, then that's what we're doing. Now, in the grand scheme of

things. No, I'm more on the Tony Stark side, be like, hey, bro, like, I don't know, nigga. Vision will be fine. I'm on the Tony Stark side when it, and this is, is kind of a in-game plot hole to me. I want a Tony Stark side when it comes to the time stone.

Because see, the time stone wasn't on nobody head making their synapses work and stuff like that. The timestone was the bling of Dr. Strange. And I know that he has a duty. But at the same time, and we'll be straight. You know what I mean? And we'll be straight. He can't win.

He can't do the little turn-back time thing. He can't, like, he can't win. you know what I'm saying? You get put into a situation and this is also going to be something else that comes up as the incursions start to happen in Secret Wars. Go back and read 2015, the Hickman Run.

It starts to become, what does it mean to love something? Does loving something meaning protecting it at all costs or does loving something mean sacrificing for it at all costs? Because what happens is, do you love humanity?

Joel doesn't love humanity. Joe's seen the worst of humanity. Joel's not sacrificing for humanity. I would argue Does Joel think that humanity is past saving? Is he like what, like what is there left to save? Like the thing right in front of me is the thing that I love. That's the only thing that matters.

I get that from just a human standpoint. I'm like, they just ran away from the cannibals. He's just like, what are we doing saving these motherfuckers for? The worst that Joel has seen hasn't come from cordyceps. It's come from people. A person killed his daughter. It wasn't a zombie that killed. A person killed his daughter.

Daughter. And when they got to. where when they got to where they were supposed to rendezvous earlier and Tess ends up

getting killed sure it was the cordyceps that got to her it was an effect that got to her but had the people not have been

fighting there then they might have been able to deliver Ellie then and he'd still have tests so Joe has no reason to sacrifice

the life of somebody else that he loves to a society that he doesn't think is worth saving especially when he doesn't know that it's going to work for the chance of saving it. He's no reason to do that.

So he had to get busy. Now, as us watching it, I think this is brilliant about stories like this. As an audience, we're forced to look around in a semi, not all the way, a semi-functional society and be confronted with the idea of

what we would be willing to, do to keep this. To keep all of this. I'm talking to you on Zoom. I'm drinking a nice cup of water that I didn't have to dig a well for. I got a hoodie on. I showered this morning. What will we be willing

to sacrifice to keep this? And so Joel is in a situation where he's looking directly at what he loves. We as an audience are in a situation where we're looking directly at what we love, which is all of the cool shit the society has given us. And

is Ellie's life worth it to try to get back to some semblance of that? I mean, if we're going to be honest, we just live through the pandemic and I'm just like, hey, I remember those early days. Mulfuckers was just like, wait, if we all wear a mask, this could be over.

Like, we could at least contain it to the point where it's like, just think of your neighbor and like a bunch of the world being like, fuck off. I'm not doing that. I'm just like, part of me's like, hey, Joe kind of has a point. Like, even if this thing happens, like, let's say there is a cure.

there's no telling what will happen. There's no telling if Thedra and the fireflies go to war, all of this death and shit could have been for nothing. You feel me? But the other thing, I want to rewind back, because I want you to answer this question for me, because I had this point in the episode where we do see that child wonderment from Ellie when she sees the giraffe, and we see this beautiful moment

where Joel is picking off the leaves and handing them to Ellie, knowing that this is like, this is going to be a transformational moment for her, just seeing this living thing and being just in wonder of it. And through that, he tells her about almost committing suicide, the loss of his daughter,

all of these things. Do you think what is angered Ellie in the car and what she asked him for the truth? Do you think that she would have been able to handle the fact that Joe killed all these people to save her? Do you think that what she's actually mad about, is what I think a lot of adults with adult parents are mad about

is that you lied to me. You thought that I could not handle this. Like, it's not, because I feel like Ellie wouldn't have been as mad about the choice. She's mad that Joel does not look at her as an equal. Because even when they're walking up that mountain, he's starting to compare her to her daughter, knowing full well that this is a grown-ass woman. She's seen too much.

She's not a little girl. Like, that is what seemed like was fueling a lot of that inner rage that Bella Ramsey beautifully played across their face. A couple of things I have to say. One is the draft scene is great. A couple standout scenes in this episode and their draft scene is one of them. If there's anything that these dystopian future

movies and shows have told us is that there's one thing that we have to look forward to in the crumbling of society, it's the animals. The animals are a plus. What animal would you, like, If you could have any animal bud from like a zoo, which one would you be like, all right, you're rolling with me? Well, it's got to be, you have to choose strategically, right?

So for me, it's probably going to be a zebra or a zebra, depending on where you're from. Because it's not going to be, as much as I would like to hang out with a lion. You know, I love lions, Mount lions. I don't want to really see one because you're in trouble. You feel what I'm saying? But you think about it. I am legend.

You see a lion. This one, you see giraffes and monkeys. It's just cool. So, you know, I'm not a wolf. I would want a little wolf buddy being like, yo, don't mess with me. But you have to watch out. You know what I mean? You have to watch out.

You got to have to keep that wolf. No, you got to get it. The wolf as a cub. Wolf and cub. You got to get it as a cub. Raise it right. You know what I mean? Even don't matter when you give him.

You need to give him food because if you don't, then you might have a problem with your wolf at one point. All right, I digress. Ellie is Joel's daughter now. Yeah. When you adopt someone, it's not, you don't adopt them by going through a whole legal process. When you adopt somebody, you adopt them, what you, what you pay for them is not money or paperwork.

You adopt them, the currency is love. So in this situation, she is not of his body, but she's his daughter. He loves her. Okay. And so he's confusing her with his daughter because, in his heart, she is his daughter. He wants, and he wants the same kind of relationship with Ellie that he wanted with the daughter that was of his body. She's his daughter now.

Do you know why they teach kids to drive when they're 15, 16 years old? Because when they're 15, 16 years old, they don't care if they die. No fear. Yeah. I mean, that makes sense because when you try to teach an older person how to drive the fear, the fear that they have in this car, which is like, rightfully so. I'm like, you're driving in a tin can. Like, this is very scary.

As a teenager, you're like, I don't fuck. I don't care. Ashley, watch something about this about people in the UK that had to learn to drive at 22, 23, 24, 25. And it's a terribly traumatic thing for some of the people because they now have a sense of their own mortality. In this situation, to what you're talking about, Ellie is going to be mad about the lie. right she's going to be mad about the glitch in the communication. Joel doesn't trust Ellie enough to make a decision about the future of her life because even though Ellie has come very far and like I said,

she is different than what she was before, she's still not quite to the point where she understands the length of life, where she understands the experiences that she's giving up. He probably doesn't trust her to make that decision. Even though she's come so far and mentally she's seen so much. And when we watch her, we look at her as a character that's come of age, he probably doesn't feel that way. he probably is still protecting her

like parents do like she's a youth and doesn't think that she has the wherewithal to have any agency over her future and so if there's a decision about whether or not Ellie lives or dies

Joel wouldn't leave that to her Joel would make it and Joel would make it until the point to where she had enough power to make it for herself to where she knew knew what, like, if Ellie, if Ellie was in love with somebody right now, would she make this same decision? If Ellie had a kid, would she make the same decision? If Ellie, if there was, if, if Ellie

truly understood what life was and what the real thing that we're all searching for, would she make that decision. And so even though none of this gets talked about in the episode, as a dad, you know she's not there yet. So what you do is you kill, anything that might even want to harm her. And that's what he did. And it was brutal. It was brutal how Joel, that's why I said, this is why I say Joel reverted. Joel reverted back to a father in this episode.

And Joel also reverted back to a killer. Wait, can we talk about that scene, though, the action of it? Because the thing that I think is beautiful about it, I don't know about you. That wasn't a heroic scene for me. Joel almost seemed like an animal Like he seemed like It was very sad It was sad

It almost seemed like those videos You see of like a lioness Protecting her Cubs Where you're just like It didn't give me like last episode The action set piece Where Ellie is fucking shit up It was like an action movie

I felt good I'm just like all right cool Like yeah Ellie is coming to her own She's a badass I didn't look at Joel as a badass In this I looked at him as a monster Now what he was trying to save beautiful, but he was executing motherfuckers like it was nothing.

I don't know that I looked at him like a monster, but it was sad to watch him turn back into a killing machine. This motherfucker's not playing the guitar after this. You know what I'm saying? And by the way, I don't know where they train in the fireflies at, but Joe was working him like John fucking Wick, man. All right, can we? All right, corner, like Joe, like Joe, Joe was on his fucking shit.

They weren't even like shoot. Like, it was just like he just would come. to a room, he's like, pop, pop, between last episode and this episode, I'm like, yo. You think they got Joel too turnta? Man, come on, bro. Like, yo,

it was Joe, it was Joe, it was Joe, it was Joe Wick in this whole fucking episode, if we're being real. Was it not? Well, I mean, that's the thing, right? That's why he is who he is. There's two scenes that, number one, the scene where they're talking,

and you see in the background, the guys roll up on them and just roll the flashbang. Yeah. That's an amazing scene for two reasons. Number one, it shows what this world is about, that danger. She's reading the puns. We got to give a shout out to just the way the show is constructed.

She's reading the puns. Danger is always lurking. You don't even see them. And by the way, the fireflies are to the point to where they don't ask no questions. They don't ask who you are. They flashbang you. first disorient you first and at the other end of a gun

get what they need to get from you Marlene says Marlene admits to him he's like yo I owe you one and this shows you how badass like Joel really is she's like I have five motherfuckers protecting me and we barely got here so you're amazing thank you for that

I owe you and then she turns to her men she's like walk him out of here if he tries anything fucking kill him shoot that like she's about her business so understand this this is what this is what I'm getting to Joe knows he can't play with them yeah

like he knows he can't play with them if you if you grab the gun and leave the room you got to kill everybody because he knows they're not playing like he knows they don't fuck around he knows the stakes so the moment that you decide

that you're going to make a move on somebody and then turn around and for everybody in movies man put a guy in front too just put a guy in front too two guys behind ain't gonna work man put a guy in front off to the right to where

he just can't fuck over both of y'all whatever so so he knows that if he if he's in he's in and they all die and he's not cool about it he's not he's not gonna leave anybody behind remember he has to save her life he's not gonna leave anybody behind

who can come up behind him and he's got to kill everyone And it was, for me, I don't know if I looked at Joel as a monster, but I was sad for him. No, when I say a monster, I'm not saying that this is like a man who is irredeemable or evil. When I say a monster, I more so mean, this is who the world has turned Joel into. To your point, he knows, he's like, you can't keep a Fedra agent alive. We saw that in the first or second episode. You can't keep a Firefly alive.

even Marlene that shit was like that shit was raw when Marlene's begging for her life which is very funny because she's she's begging for her life at the same time

where she's trying to kill a child which shows you that Marlene as much as she's trying to save the world also ain't shit when Joe walks up he's like I know you're never going to stop hunting her down you know he's right he's not lying there

he can't leave her he can't leave her she's what would who wouldn't she said she's got to save the world he can't leave her Joel walks in there

and shot a doctor in the head I don't know what doc was thinking Doc Doc you got to drop the stuff also quarter flip when the doctor picks up the knife I'm like hey bro

what are you going to do with this like what are you doing with this right now the doctor was about I felt like the doctor was about to take the scap to ell his head he's like now

we got to do this Joe's like now you did unhook her now he didn't kill the nurses, though. Didn't kill the nurses. He respects the nurses. I don't think he thought that the nurses were really going to pick up some, some glocks, some tech nines or whatever they got,

and come after him. I think he thought the nurses was probably cool in terms of leaving them alive. But anybody else that was a threat to come get him is, it had to die. Look, the episode was high octane all the way until we got to the end of it. And it leaves us in a perfect position to really have a real conversation about what should have happened and a conversation about what should happen next, which is the epitome, the epitome, the epitome of a fantastic season for now. They did it. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound terseptide may be able to help. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity, or some adults

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We just haven't found the steps yet. How much did we save? Enough. Enough to get lost. Or you could book a stay with Hilton. Welcome to your ocean front room. Just steps from the water. The Hilton sale is on now.

Book on Hilton.com or the Hilton app and save up to 20% to get the stay you expected. When you want savings, not surprises. It matters where you stay. Hilton, for the stay. Before we end, we got a couple things. I want to bring Kai on. Okay.

For the last Kai's video game corner. Kai's been killing it. You've been killing it this whole season. I'm very proud of you. Thank you. I feel like you're my Ellie. Do not stab you in the back when I walk away, Guy. Sounds good.

I won't. I promise. So what I was really interested in this episode is that how they frame Joel saving Ellie, where a lot of the music drops out. You're just hearing bullets. It is not how we typically do fight scenes like that, especially in a finale. So I want to know how close this season finale is

at the end of the game, but for you emotionally, when you played the game for the first time, deed, how Joel was knocking down the fireflies feel how it felt in the game? It's a great question. I think in the game, it's obviously a lot more gamey, for lack of a better term. It's very tactical.

Like, you're just trying to take out a bunch of people coming at you. You still feel that emotion, but I think here where the camera can, you know, close in on Joel or closing on, like, people that he's killed rather than you're just keep going forward. I think that was that part of the emotional aspect of this episode was really moving.

And then I think, like, in the game, that's the first moment where you get an assault rifle. Like the whole game, you're using like pistols. You're using like one shot, bolt action rifles. You're using bow and arrow. So nothing really like to take it to that next level. So in this last set piece, you get an automatic rifle, an assault rifle. And then, you know, Joel just kind of goes in.

So yeah, it's, I don't know, it's pretty, it's pretty epic in terms of how that, how he goes out. But in this, I think it's, it's a lot more hair. too. Also, do we get a flashback in the game of Ellie's mom and realizing how that happened? Yeah. So I wanted to mention that because number one, that's one of the big changes in there. Big additions, I should say, in this episode. That's not in the game. And Ellie's mom, Anna, is played by Ashley Johnson, who's the voice actor for Ellie in the game. So that was like really, really cool to see her and hear her voice. Oh, shit. She kind of looks like Bella Ramsey. I'm not going to

lie. I was just like, this would be Bella. Yeah. As soon as I found out she was playing Ellie's mom, I was like, that's, that's great. And then, so, yeah, the whole cold open was new and, like, that added context to, to Ellie's mom is new. And I also wanted to mention, like, just going back a little bit, Joel's story about, you know, wanting to kill himself after he loses Sarah, that's new, too. Like, I think that adds to this vulnerable side of Joel that, like, wasn't as apparent in the games than as in the show as, like, Pedro Pascal's playing it.

You guys can't tell me anything about Ashley Johnson. and she was on the groin pains when she was a kid. So first knew her. Kyle, you weren't even born. Shut your mouth. She was also in the Avengers. Wait, who was she in the Avengers? Remember at the end in the battle for New York where, like, there was the waitress and Steve Rogers helped her?

Oh, yeah. What? That's insane. Remember she was in the Avengers, the waitress, and it's all she comes out and she's all, it's all, like, whatever is dirty. And Steve Rogers helped her. That's nuts. She was in the Avengers, yeah. So my last question for Kai's video.

game corner, do we get an explanation? Because this goes into the explanation of how Ellie is immune. Is that in addition to the source material? Yeah, yeah, that too. I think, you know, that little bit of info that we get on her immunity in terms of like he says, it makes normal, or Marlene says, excuse me, about what the doctor says, that it makes normal cordyceps think she has cordyceps. And then the whole thing of like, it's grown with her since birth. Yeah, that's, that's pretty new too. All right. So, Kai stay on. We talked, we talked, we, said we're going to do this last episode. Now that the first season is done,

I don't want to compare Last of Us to all of HBO history. I don't think it's fair. We need to kind of do that when it's ended, whether it's two seasons, three seasons. But I have two questions for y'all. What do you think HBO's flagship shows are? Top three. Do you think Last of Us cracks the top three?

Is it number one? I have some. We can add others. We have Succession, Euphoria, The Last of Us, Barry, House of the Dragon, the rehearsal. add in whatever you want. The White Lotus?

White Lotus. Yes, White Lotus. What are HBO's flagship shows top three from three being still a flagship, but obviously not one to three, two, one? Okay. I say succession is one. Flagship. When we talk about flagship, because I have another question, we're going to do critically

the best. What is the best show currently? Well, we're talking about flagship. Like flagship, like this is the... We're just talking about raw viewers. because Secession isn't there in terms of raw viewers. It's a combination, I think. We're talking about raw viewers.

We're talking about critically. We're talking about everything. Like when you look at the number one show. It's kind of like in a different way, right? Because I think the number one show critically is clearly Succession. And in the groups that I talk to that I'm in a lot of the time, Succession is the most talked about HBO show. It's the greatest show, I think, on TV right now.

I don't watch Euphoria. So I'm not aware. I'm just, I got to be honest with you guys. I know that Euphoria is probably. good show. I just can't watch fucked up kids, man. It's like, I can't, it's like a thing with me. I watch I try to watch one episode and I want to help them,

bro. So I can't watch you for you. I mean, I was just on higher learning. I know you want to help the kids. Like you can't some kids in peril. Right, right, right, right. By the way, people loved your appearance, by the way. You should say that people loved you on there. Thought you brought a much needed perspective. Oh, great.

So it's a really good question. I guess number one would have to be House of the Dragon. I think just by virtue of what it Yeah. It would have to be House of the Dragon. Number two would be succession to me. I think number three is last of us, bro. I know Euphoria is a big deal. I know White Lotus is a big deal. I know the rehearsal is a big deal.

I think with the numbers that this show has been able to pull across with the fact that the first season was as good to me as most first seasons of television I've ever seen, I'm going to be honest with you, man. I really do think the third spot would have to go to Last of Us because when I think about it, Last of Us has really had a bigger impact and maybe that's because of the video game as well,

a bigger impact on people than... It had a bigger impact than Succession really did. I would say it had a bigger impact than House the Dragon. Maybe not in years I would have to look at, but like just in terms of like... Maybe you can be right. If we're being honest, like, Malfuckers was litigating whether House of Dragon was great or trash for this entire run,

where for the entire run of Last of Us, we were talking about like, but how great is it? You feel me? Which is like, we got to factor that in. But I get it. So, but I just, you know, the House of the Dragon has a Game of Thrones thing propelling it for. And the whole, not just a whole brand that it's with. So those two are really swappable. And I don't want to be the, the victim of too much recency bias.

I just watched The Last of Us. So that's where I will put it. Barry, I know people love Barry. The rehearsal is one of the most sublimely good shows ever, but it's a little bit too out there for some people. And White Lotus, I feel like is a big, big deal, but it's the biggest guilty pleasure out of all of the shows that we're naming right now. So if I had to say, I would say it has to be House of Dragon number one in terms of flagship,

just because that's what's keeping the lights on. That's why you can do succession is because you know you have something in the chamber that no matter when it comes on is going to be a big deal. I think I'm going to put Last of Us 2. I think last of us going forward, the next two seasons,

they're going to be talking about it. These are the two shows we have coming out that, to what I said, keep on the lights. Now, the third spot is tricky. I think it has to be euphoria because Zendaya, I think it was just reported. Like, this might be alleged.

she just reworked her contract where she's making a million dollars episode. How much was it an episode? A million dollars episode. That level of star power is just like that's like modern family type shit

when that shit was on like broadcast like that's a different level. Kai, what do you think? Top three. I think for me I got to go House of Dragon One just for the Game of Thrones brand. They'll always have a live action Game of Thrones show on HBO in my opinion. I think two,

I think I go succession just because it's kind of their longest running consistent drama on the thing. Like this is something you can come back to every year. And then like you guys said, three is the tough one. I think, again, if we're going to talk about best show, last was going to be near the top for me.

But I think I might have to zag a little bit and go White Lotus just because I think that's the thing that they could have as long as they want of like a new place, new cast of really famous people. And like, I don't think people are really going to get tired of that. Whereas, like, I think Last of Us season two and three might be, actually definitely will be divisive.

So I think in terms of flagship, I know they want to build around LastFus and I could probably be wrong. But I think White Lotus is a little bit more digestible for people. So then my last question before we end this very, very great podcast of this season, what's HBO's best show? Van, you've already kind of tipped your hand. If we're going Succession Euphoria, The Last of Us Barry, House of the Dragon, the rehearsal, White Lotus. what is, let's do a two and a one. Succession is number one. I mean, it's just much more content of succession to compare it to.

It's kind of, you know, and Last of Us is number two. Last of us is number two, really? For me, remember, you guys, I don't watch Euphoria, and I'm being honest. I don't watch Euphoria. I don't watch Barry. So of the shows that we're talking about, the ones that I've watched are the rehearsal. I've watched parts of White Lotus. White Lotus isn't really for me.

Can I be real? I don't know if do the black people fuck with the White Lotus. I'm not trying to talk about all black people. I'm just trying to be like, they do. Like, do you think the community fucks with it? They do.

I mean, they, they, they, they, they talk about it. Like, Kaleika, her friends,

be watching it and all of that stuff. They do. But it's not for me. So of the shows that I watch, I'm really saying Secession, uh, House of the Dragon. I'm saying,

Last of Us and the rehearsal. So I'd have to say that, um, Succession is number one. To me, it's the best show on HBO. It's the best show on television. And last of us is the second. All right.

I'm going to go Succession easily, the best, one of the best shows I've ever seen. I'm going to zag. I think number two is the rehearsal. Yeah, you love that show. I've never seen something like the rehearsal before. Like, I've seen, I've seen something like The Last of Us.

Like, The Last of Us is like the best you can do as a zombie show, I think. I'm not taking anything away from it. I love the season. But, Nah, the rehearsal is that shit. Nathan Fielder was wild and out. That's a crazy white boy there. You really love that show.

You are the reason why I started watching that show. You never told me really, really quick. What did you think of it? It's great. It's trippy. Bonkers. You know, and it's not the most fun show to watch. Did Kalika like it?

That's the test. No. Hell no. She tapped out way early. She's like, what kind of... Calica... Well, I remember one. time I put on

because the internet, Childish Gambino we were driving somewhere in me and Kalika. And Kalika's like, man, get this shit off the radio. Man, I'm not, she's like, I know that you go deep into your, you know, whatever, whatever, but she was like, if you don't

put Ti on while we driving down to San Diego, I'm not trying to listen to this. And that's how she feels about the rehearsal. She feels like that's me getting into my, she calls it my art and flowers back. Oh man That's amazing

That's genius Wait really quick What else is in your art and flowers bag We got because of the internet The rehearsal Scott Pilgrin versus the world Yeah yeah Scott Pilgris versus the world

Like she can't stand She comes home Van is in this art and flowers versus art of flowers back She's like I just want to watch Captain America Winter Soldier And Van Van

I'm like just give it a chance She's like I don't get it I don't want to watch it It's okay Now that's not to say that we haven't done this. Oh, another one. Connected in New York.

Oh, classic. Class of flowers. She could not even, she watched the whole thing, but just was not fucking with it. She was like, this is weird,

depressing, stupid. She's like, why would anyone volunteer to watch this show about people mired in hate for life? I'm like,

That's not what it's about at all. She just didn't like it. But every once in a while, I put on something that I think it would be Arden Flowers and she'll fuck with it. Oddly enough, she's liked every other Charlie Kaufman's script

that I've showed her. She loves... Really? So she likes John Malkovich. Loves it. Loves John Malkovich. Loves adaptation. Really?

Adaptation? Loved it. Damn. I think, because I think what's connectedy, our guy really made the movie that he wants to make. I think it was a little bit...

Connected it was a little bit much for some people. All right, take us out, Kai. Best HBO shows, 2-1-1. Totally. I'll keep it brief. I think Succession 1, easy. There's too much content there. There's too much good content there. It's just perfect three seasons.

And if they land, it's really going to be, you know, R-Dy is one of the best shows ever. Number two, I'm not going to say the last of us just because I think the game is there. And I think for this show specifically, if they nail this next part, it's top tier for me. It's going to be one of the best shows ever,

and this first season already is. But just because there's more there, I got to go, Barry. I love Barry, and I think there's just three seasons. It's perfect to me. And I love The Last of Us. It's very close to my heart. The game means so much to me.

I think it's one of the best stories ever in all of art. But I think just, you know, because Barry's original and not an adaptation, I think it gets just, and three seasons, just a little bit of an edge for me. I will say one thing before you go. I promise that I would tell you guys

whether or not I thought this was one of the best first seasons in television history. We promised that on the last podcast. I will say this. I put this season of The Last of Us up there with the Wire season one, with the Sopranos season one. Damn. With Game of Thrones season one, with any season one

of any show I have seen on HBO or period with Breaking Bad season one, it was that good. I'm there. Yeah, I can't even be a hater. It is. It is. is there. Like, I can't even be aater. I was about to argue. I'm like, it's pretty great. It's pretty fucking great. But y'all, with that, thank you, everyone who has listening to Van and I

discussed the last of us for the last season. I want to say a special thank you to producer Kai. Van, Kai killed it. Like, Kai came on here. Video game corner. Like, amazing, Kai. This is not the last time we're going to work together. But, yo, make sure you tap into the Midnight Boys on the Ring or Verse Feed every Wednesday if you want here van and i and joey and steve talk about tv shows that you love like mandolary and everything like that and with that we will see y'all sometime soon