The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘The Last of Us’ Season 2, Episode 2 Precap: The Most Important Episode of the Show Yet. Plus, Composer Gustavo Santaolalla.

Episode Date: April 25, 2025

Jo and Rob protect Jackson to recap the second episode of ‘The Last of Us’ Season 2. (0:00) Intro (10:11) How to handle spoilers in the age of streaming TV (26:27) Kaitlyn Dever’s performance as Abby (36:33) Composer Gustavo Santaolalla talks about the differences between writing for the game vs. the series, how he approached coming up with the main theme, scoring THAT moment, and much more (01:04:07) Video game **SPOILERS** section Email us! [e-mail] Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of ‘The Prestige TV Podcast’ and so much more! Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney Producers: Kai Grady and Donnie Beacham Jr. Additional Production Support: Justin Sayles Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I'm Joanna. I'm Rob Mahoney. We're here to talk to you about a very uplifting episode of television, episode two of the last of us. Rob Mahoney, how are you doing? I feel great. Yeah? Just really bright and sunny today.

I think overall optimistic about not only the state of the world, but everything we're going to talk about for the next hour. And the human condition, I think. Completely. Here's how the show is going to work this week and going forward. We've got three sections for you today. We've got an opening section that is sort of like a mailbag moment. Rob Moni, how can folks reach us for this particular show? Always at prestige TV at Spotify.com, but especially for the last of us at this is your brain on shrooms at gmail.com.

We'll have that mailbag section. We'll have an interview, as we promised last week. And then we will have a spoiler section for you at the end with Rob Mahoney, who played the game long ago, can talk to us about sort of what we can expect upcoming or some ramifications of the changes that we've seen that we can't talk about in a spoiler-free way. But a spoiler section that could not be marked more clearly, Joe, post-interview, completely separate format. Do not wade into those waters if you do not want to know what is going in the story. Like, just don't do it. You have so much time to leave, I promise you. Okay.

Yeah. Rob Mahoney, I just recently found out that you're a vinyl guy. Who do we have on the podcast this week? I am modestly a vinyl guy. I am a limited collection, must-havs-only vinyl guy. One of these records I own is a 4-LP, Last of Us soundtrack by none, like none other than the legend himself, Gustavo Centelaya, Oscar winner, composers, as I said, of probably the best video game score ever created to this point and naturally of the adaptation of that score for the show. So I am just beyond jazz to have this interview this week, Joe. We're thrilled to talk to Gustavo about The Last of Us, both on the game work and the show work and all of that. So that is our interview this week. I'm so stoked to have it. And then I found out that Rob had the vinyl and I got even more stoked about it. So tune in for that conversation. Well, this is really the perfect time for it because it is. the record you should own when you want to feel bad about the world? You know, it's just like

one of those days where you just want to stew in the misery, and that's when you cue up the musical stylings of not only Gustavo, but the Last of Us specifically. Just some sad twangy guitar for your for your thoughts and feelings. One more could we want. I do, if people are watching this on video, which you can do on YouTube and on the Spotify app, I do have my record players right there. So I am also a limited only vinyl person. I'm a moderate vinyl guy sometimes. Okay. Do you have, you don't have the like, which I do, the almost famous like mega box set thing, do you? I do not. I didn't even know that was on offer. Okay. I will, I will share that with you off pod. Okay. So let's start with the most important thing. We sent a query out into the world.

Yeah. Last week for the gamer amongst you to weigh in on the debate that's ripping the nation apart and it is team bottle versus team brick. Yeah. In these divided times. Nothing could be more divided than this. We got a ton of responses on this. And guess what? Very even spread against Team Brick and Team Bottle. I want to read my favorite email, which comes from Tyler, who says,

The Three Little Pigs weren't saved by a house made of bottles get a grip rob. That's my favorite email that we got on the Team Bottle versus Team Brick. But so this is a question for the gamers. You can pick up a brick or you can pick up a bottle inside of the game. Which one is the better one? In the first episode of this season, there was a bottle moment that Team Bottle really felt like was a win for them. Can I just lay out what I feel like from the many, many emails we got about this? Can I lay out what I feel like I've learned about this debate?

Okay. Correct if I'm wrong. I think. It seems like Team Brick's main argument is that in a melee situation, you can stun someone with a bottle, but you can kill the shit out of them with a brink. You certainly can. What would you rather have in a zombie moment? Okay. Team Bottle's main argument seems to be related to a Molotov cocktail.

I know Molotov cocktails are important inside of The Last of Us, but like, does the singular empty bottle, is that a required element for the Molotov cocktail? It's an element of the recipe. So you do have to have the empty bottle to then make the Molotov cocktail. That's compelling. Right. Fire versus bludgeoning. I don't know.

it's two great tastes that go great together, honestly. I appreciate the pragmatism of Team Brick, especially the people who emailed us to tell us they were playing on grounded difficulty in particular, which I have to tell you, is one of the most harrowing experiences you can have in gaming. My experience with grounded was I played through the first game, and I was riding high from the experience of playing it.

And I'm like, I got it. I'm going back. I'm going back in at the highest possible difficulty. And I'm going to see what this is like. It's very hard. I am not equipped for it. I got, I would say, roughly 15% into the game, maybe 20. And I was just like, I'm not built for this.

I am not built to be picking up bricks left and right and beating infected with my, basically my bare hands melee style, but really bricks melee style. I want both the style and the substance of the bottle. And because certain difficulties aren't amenable to that, then I am, they're just not for me ultimately. Like, I need to be in a bottled existence. I'm going to leave you with this last thought on Team Bottle versus Team Brick. and thank you all. I mean, you can continue to send us your thoughts and feelings to this

is your brain on shrooms at gmail.com, but this is what Dana wrote. I think the bottle versus brick debate is overly simplistic, creates a false dichotomy, and unnecessarily divides an already tumultuous fan base. I believe the correct way to view this is not versus, but depends. Bricks are best when being used as a melee weapon or being thrown directly in an enemy, being harder than bottles, they do more damage. Bottles are a better choice when you need a distraction, being more prone to shatter than bricks. This would create a louder sound, at least in my head, leading to a better distraction. I believe the fandom could and should call a truce in this decade-long war and focus our ire on the true enemy.

Neil Druckman's inexplicable pretending that there won't be a third game. So that is Dana's platform. And vote for Dana if you want to put this debate to rest. It is quite compelling. I do want us all to come together in these trying times. And this episode most of all, Joe, like let us weep, let us mourn together, let us celebrate the fact that Abby did not pick up a brick to beat Joel to death. You know, ultimately it's a different implement that we don't have any access to. Sure. No one's team golf club, to be clear.

Definitely not. Last but at least on the sort of like bits and bob's part, part, we did get a response to our query of what makes a hoard from a couple people. They cited this one magical system that was like really sweet that a number of our listeners, went to this one Heroes of Bite and Magic game that classifies groups thusly. A few is one through four, several five through nine, a pack 10 through 19, lots, 20 through 49. That's a scientific determination, lots. Horde, 50 through 99. Okay. Throng, 100 through 249, swarm 250 to 499

zounds 500 to 99 and Legion a thousand plus so if you had to guess based on this taxonomy yes what attacked Jackson Hole in episode two

this feels like a swarm to me I agree or if you really wanted to break it up maybe there are multiple distinct throngs in play two throngs at least But they're all joined by the same fungal hive mind. So I think it is a swarm. All right. So we're putting hoard to bed and we're picking swarm. And that sounds right to me as well. I agree. But I do love the word throng. So thank you so much. Is your assessment, you know, Mal and I had so confusion around this. Is your assessment that Abby woke one throng? Yes. And the little tendrils in the pipes woke the other. And then we saw them come together to form a swarm around Jackson.

Is that what happened in your mind? I do not know. I don't, yeah, I think the inciting incident of what is leading the infected to do what they do in this episode, I don't know that I quite track. But I like the idea that it's like, it's both Abby and the internal expansion at Jackson. It's like the outside consequences, but also the internal consequences of, uh, complacency or whatever you want to call it. Okay. Quick question. Okay. So this is like a big, a big episode for the spoiler phobes versus the spoiler files versus the players of the game versus newcomers, et cetera, et cetera. Definitely. One of our listeners, Charlotte was asking,

how do we handle spoilers in a quote, non-appointment viewing world? So if we're not all watching HBO Sunday night and her argument is that we haven't done that in such a meaningful way since Game of Thrones. When should one feel safe to go on social media or, you know, whatever and not have an episode of The Last of the Spoiled for them? She was like, I've noticed an uptick around White Lotus and now this where people just feel free. And she was mostly sort of naming, I don't know, various culture outlets like Vulture or

variety or whatever and sort of digging them for their tweets or this or blue skies or whatever. Do you have any thoughts or feelings? Do you have a philosophy on sort of when is it kosher to, you know, start chatting about a TV show that people, everyone's watching? I do think there's been a kind of a handoff between who the responsibility falls to. You know, there's sort of a blanket, pervasive understanding. If you are making content like this podcast, we have a response, like, we want to withhold certain things. We don't want to put it so far out there that if you were trying to avoid it, you couldn't possibly avoid it. that said, it so much depends on your specific spoiler sensitivity. And mine is incredibly high to the point that I'm just not going online. Like, I'm just not going to be on social media until I have seen it. I am not going to, I'm not even going to, frankly, be as responsive or reachable over text amongst the people who I know are watching it and might be texting me. Did you see that shit if it's something that I don't know what's going to happen? So it kind of does fall on you a little bit and fall on like how wounded you would be if you found out something you didn't want to know.

No. I actually had to do this recently on two ringer text threads. I had to do it to the, the sinner's text thread that you're a part of that I didn't see the movie. I didn't see the movie until Saturday. So you guys were talking about it. I was just like mute until later. Did me telling you that it fucking rips, spoil the movie for you? No, that start, but then like, people started having conversations and sharing memes. And I was like, I don't know what any of this is. And I refuse to look at it until Saturday. So that's what I did. And then you will note on Saturday, I started getting Mouthey in there. And then Chris Ryan, Mallor Rubin and I were watching our Andor screeners.

And Chris and Mallor were ahead of me. And so I just muted the thread until I had caught up to them because, like, they want to talk about it. Great. I don't want to see it. Great. I have some modic of measure of control over that. It's tough when like so many of us go to places like Twitter or Blue Sky or Instagram or whatever for like, I don't know, actual news or interaction with pals or whatever it is. And you're like, and I got to deprive myself of that or to not know what happened to Joel on the last of us.

The last shreds of human connection we have left in a mostly digital world, Joe, and we're depriving you of it. It's, you know, it's almost like maybe we shouldn't have isolated ourselves and just, you know, just bottled ourselves up in our little homes and avoided all contact from the outside world unless absolutely necessary. It's almost like it was a bad thing. Yeah, I prefer to say brick ourselves up into our own little homes, but, you know, to each of their own. So, yeah, I mean, it's a complicated question from our listener, Charlotte. I don't have a clean answer. For Thrones, I did feel pretty clean. It's like stay off social media on Sunday.

nights if you don't want to be spoiled. But I agree that it's a little harder now when the monoculture is as divided as it is and people are like, I don't want to binge watch, binge watch three episodes of Andor, you know, on a Tuesday night. I don't have time. Tony Gilroy, I don't have time. What are you doing to me? So this is your brain on shrooms if you have spoiler philosophy. I think what's made it harder too is the number of kind of bad faith actors out there has just escalated so dramatically, specifically on social media. but one thing I think we can all get behind is, say for an episode like this, a moment like this, posting clips and images from the episode specifically, terrible, terrible form.

If you want to make like your little jokes about it that are ambiguous enough that if you don't know about the golf club, you wouldn't be able to piece it together, maybe there's enough gray area there to work with, but you can't just be posting things directly from the episode moments after it aired. Dicey, very dicey. This is always a game. Like when I, even when I was covering Thrones, this is always like a game I tried to play where I was like, you want to make your coverage and your headline exciting. But like, how do you? So you, you wind up saying such hokey things like that moment or whatever it is.

And it's so grownworthy, but I'm just sort of like, but I'm trying not to spoil people. Anyway, no longer my problem. I know. I'm a podcaster now. Okay. Well, the title of this podcast is that podcast about that moment. We are the definitive take among the five ringer podcast covering the show and the infinite number. of podcast covering otherwise. But it's been three days, so you've had some time. Okay, so listen,

on the non-spoiler front, this is speculation front, which is fun for even a gamer like, Rob, because we don't know what the truth is here. Our listener, Dan asked, can you talk more about what happened between Gail's husband and Joel, Eugene, being, is it laid out explicitly in the game or is it kept more ambiguous? This is actually like a massive game to show change, Rob, in that Eugene and they do go to Eugene's grow house. They do find some like information about eugene. Eugene has died, but of natural causes. It is nothing to do with something mysterious and awful that Joel did. So I guess my question for you, Rob, is do you have any theories? What did Joel do to Eugene? That's so bad. You know, I didn't think I would get to

theorize on this show, Joe. So I'm thrilled to be back. I see only like two real possibilities here. One, Eugene, who is a former firefly himself, becomes aware in some way of what Joel did in terms of wiping out all the fireflies in Salt Lake, saving Ellie's life, choosing her life over a potential vaccine. And Joel kills him to hide the secret, to contain the secret. Right. The other possibility is some version of that happens, but it's maybe Ellie who ends up killing Eugene for some reason and Joel covers it up to protect Ellie. but that would require like a more delicate dance and series of events to get there that I don't that seems overly complicated. To me it seems most likely that Eugene was never bitten in any stretch of the imagination. He was just a normal guy who brought information to Joel that Joel did not like being information on the public and decided to take matters into his own hands.

Do you do have any other other alternative reads that could be in play here? No, I mean, it's so mysterious because it's like people, people die, Rob, they die all the time. So what like it was like the thing that Gail said is like, it was the way you did. did it. And I'm like, what did, what, were we drawn and quartered? Was there gasoline involved? What do you mean the way he did it? You know? I didn't even take it that way. I took it as like, we have evidence within the show to say that where you're, where you are bitten kind of dictates how long it takes for you to become one of the zombies. And, you know, if you're bitten on an extremity on an armor lake, it can be as much as a day or more for some people.

I took Gail's line to be, why didn't, even if he was bitten out in the world, why did you not bring my husband back to Jackson so we could say goodbye. Like, why did you just take care of this as if this was your thing to take care of when this is a person who I love? That's been my read on it so far. Interesting. Okay. Well, in theory, we'll find out because Joey Pants himself is playing Eugene and he's in the

trailer so we know we'll get some sort of Eugene flashback and reveal. But this is a mystery for the gamers as much it is for the show watchers. Will we see him don the bong gas mask in the flesh? One can only hope. can only hope. Okay, let's talk about, let's talk about Abby, which was sort of like a bone to pick that you had with the show in terms of learning a bit more about Abby before the killing than we do in the game. And I want to read, so our listener Adam wrote in, thanks Adam, with one of my favorite things to ever talk about, which is what Alfred Hitchcock once said about suspense versus

versus surprise. And I'm not going to read Adam's email, though, it's great. I am going to read you the Alfred Hitchcock quote because I've talked to you, I'm sure, about it, Rob. I bring it up on podcasts all the time. But I thought I would read the whole quote out because wouldn't you know it? Alfred Hitchcock puts it better than I do. So here's what Alfred Hitchcock said about the idea of suspense versus surprise in a conversation with Francois Truffaut. He said, quote, there is a distinct difference between suspense and surprise and yet many pictures, films, continually confuse the two. I'll explain what I mean. We are now having a very innocent little chat. Let's suppose that there is a bomb underneath this table between us. Nothing happens and then all of a sudden, boom, there is an explosion. The public is surprised, but prior to the surprise, it has seen an absolutely ordinary scene of no special consequence. Now let us take a suspend situation. The bomb is underneath the table and the public knows it,

probably because they have seen the anarchists place it there. The public is aware that the bomb is going to explode at 1 o'clock and there's a clock in the decor. The public can see that it is a chord to one. In these conditions, the same innocuous conversation becomes fascinating because the public is participating in the scene. The audience is longing to warn the characters on the screen, you should not be talking about such trivial matters. There is a bomb beneath you and is about to explode. In the first case, we have given the public 15 seconds of surprise at the moment of the explosion. In the second, we have provided them with 15 minutes of suspense. The conclusion is that whenever possible, the public must be informed, except when the surprise is a twist. That is when the unexpected ending is in itself the highlight of the story. So, end quote. That's all for Hitchcock. I think there's many cases you and many gamers can make about the fact that the way in which Abby's motivations are revealed in the game is the story or is part of the

mechanic of the story. And we'll talk about that in a second. But I do think it's worth advocating for just a minute about what we do get inside of this episode inside of the story. Knowing that Abby is after Joel and Joel's hand, as it does in the game, enters screen and it is Joel there. And we know that Abby wants to kill him, not just kill him, but kill him slowly. And so we know when she hears his name, when Dina says it, we know that she wants to kill him when she said, let's go back to the lodge where my friends are. We know that those are a bunch of people who want Joel dead. And so that is a different

experience than in the game and in many people's opinion a lesser experience, but it is a delicious kind of tension that is not necessarily evident in the game. Any thoughts about that Ramahoni? I mean, many, many, many thoughts. I think for one, this is the most important episode of this show to date. And I think it's also one of the best. And I think they really pulled this off, despite my apprehensions and I'm sure many other gamers apprehensions, like this version of Abby and this version of the story, I think does really work. That suspense, that element, it definitely plays. And weirdly enough, I would say the Abby Joel Ellie stuff works for me better in this episode than the big battle sequence stuff does. But the existence of the big battle sequence, I think is

really important when you already are telling us Abby's motivations up front. Like, you need the distracting, offsetting, counterbalance element to keep us in that suspended state of wondering, is there anything that could happen here that would convince Abby to not do this? They would convince her friends to have a moment of there is a flaming city off in the distance. Like, is there something bigger at play than our personal revenge? Unfortunately, for all of us, especially Joel, the last of us is a story about how our personal tragedies just bulldoze any societal human concerns in the vast majority of cases. Like, we are way laid by our personal loss first and foremost, more than what.

what's happening to a city of people you don't know. And so the fact that they have that counterbalance, the fact that you do get all of this built-in suspense coming from this format, I think my primary concern was, is there going to be enough time for the suspense to build? Right. Like, if you're going to go suspense versus surprise, are you going to let it fester enough for us to really feel it?

And I think I did really feel it. I think I did really get there by the time that inevitably, Abby and Joel do run into each other. And you put them on the track that can only lead to one place, really. there's so much there's so much time from that moment until Joel's actual death for you to talk yourself in and out of exactly what's happening that to me is the suspense that really matters and that's the reason this episode really works at a really high level I'm so glad to hear that I know you were concerned and we talk more in the spoiler section about some of the larger game ramifications or larger show grammifications of this but I'm really glad to hear that because I know you were you were worried about that and I think that's one of the most compelling arguments I've heard yet for the inclusion of the battle sequence inside of this episode, which I was sort of like a little iffy on. So I think that's a really great, compelling point of view. One piece of pushback

that I've seen, not just to like the coverage that Mallory and I did in depth on House of R, but just across the board is, is I think people are bumping on, and I think this is okay to talk about it, non-spiler way, equating in any way what Abby does here with what Joel did, at the end of season one. The argument being what Joel did was in defense and protection of someone and what Abby is doing here is just vengeance or her, you know, bizarre idea of justice or whatever it is. I don't know. And I don't know if I have a non-spoiler way to sort of push back on that. One thing I was talking to our producer Donnie about before we started recording, I was like, well, does it tip the balance of the skills in any way that Joel's body count is,

18 and Abbeys is one inside of these two isolate. Both of them also have body counts outside of that. But inside of this, inside of this particular, you know, comparison. Do you have any thoughts on that, Rob, like whether or not that's a fruitful thing to talk about in a spoiler-free way or what do you think? I think it's fruitful to talk about. I would say overall, especially to this point in the story, the point is that they're never going to be equal, that what happened to you is always going to feel different and always going to feel more powerful. And so it's not a matter of 18 bodies against one. It's not a matter of revenge versus, uh, like protection. It's this person I love died or this person I love was at risk. And therefore I'm, I am spurred to action in a really

compelling way that is always going to make sense to me, but may never entirely make sense to you. Although I will say, I think part of what makes, I want to talk about Caitlin Dever's performance, especially in, in this sequence, but what makes Pedro Pascal's performance so effective for me is there is almost like a mutual understanding of, I am looking into the eyes of someone who is resolute in what they aim to do. And the only other pushback I've really seen, at least in a really pronounced way about this sequence, is that Joel didn't try to like talk his way out of this with Abby, that he didn't tell her about Ellie, that he didn't tell her about the fact that this person

he loved was going to die. Like, he didn't try to set the scene or change her mind in any way, to which I would say, it never really occurred to me that he would, that he is looking. at something very familiar to him, which is like an agent of violence. And like a ultimately someone who is carrying out a very specific agenda that is not going to be dissuaded. And so what you tell that person is not, oh, let me tell you my life's story and make you sob with me. It's, can you please hurry up? Like, if you're going to do this, can you please get on with it? Yeah. And something that the the creators have said is that, and Mal and I talked about this in House of Ar, but like that a reason

they put Dina in that room, which is an adaptive difference from the game, is to make Joel more compliant. He's compliant because he's concerned about her safety. If it were just him in that room, perhaps he would be either mouthier or, you know, in a more of a berserker rage sort of space, however much you can be after you get shot in the leg or anything like that. Actually, before I get to the next thing, I want to give you the floor as a fellow Deaver believer.

What do you think? What do you want to say about Kailen in this episode? You know, we're eating well, Joe. Our back swing is looking strong. I think overall we're just in a really great place as far as endeavoring to understand the range of what Kailen Deaver is capable of. Because as you and I and justified fans will know, she's always been great at this sort of like hardened cynicism. I've never seen something quite like this, the kind of menace that she channels in this sequence. I found really unique for the roles that I've seen her in and really,

really powerful. And I think the heel turn that Abby has here and this version of the character really works because Caitlin Dever is selling us on Abby's satisfaction in this moment of getting to twist the knife. Like relish, not only shotgunning Joel in the leg, but then taking the golf club to it. Right. Like her getting to have this moment is what makes it so effective. And having a version of Abby that I would say overall is much talkier than. the version we get in the game.

This feels true to this version of the story in general, show versus game. It feels to me, like Neil Druckman and Craig Mason have made a very conscious choice, that they are not going to let the audience misunderstand Abby or her motives. That leads to a big speechifying scene here where she is laying out a lot. Yeah. I think there's moments at which you err on the side of, like, over-explicating things that could play differently if you wanted to do that, and it sometimes in the game do play differently. But I think this works because this is a version of Abby that doesn't just want revenge.

She wants to be hurt. Like she wants to have this moment with Joel where she gets to tell him, this is how you fucked me up. And this is how you ruined my life. And if she just shot him in the head, that version of the character doesn't really make sense to me. But this version, as Caitlin Dever is delivering it, really does. Something one of our listeners, Mike wrote in to say that he, for one, was more inclined to be accepting of changes because Neil Druckman, the creator of the game is also the kosher runner of this show that I don't know that he mentioned but Hallie Gross who co-wrote The Last Was Part 2 is also a huge creative voice on the show.

So the difference between watching something that someone has adapted from someone's work without their many Stephen King adaptations, the Stephen King's like, what shit was that guys? I don't like it versus the creator themselves. Making the adaptation. Yes. So making the choice. And you touched upon this a little bit, this idea that you touched on last week about a second chance at a story that you've already told and told quite well. And I think that really rings true for me because I'm always, I'm always asking this question.

Like, we were always in the coverage of Thrones and the House of the Dragon. How much is George involved? What does George think about? What does George R. Martin think about all of this? Or is he busy, you know, resurrecting wolves? or with something like Station 11, when Emily, which is one of my favorite limited series I've ever seen in my life,

based on a book I really, really liked, but it is very different from the book. Yeah, quite an abstract adaptation, right? But when Emily St. John Mendel said, I wish I had made this key different choice that they made,

Patrick made on that show when he made that show, I was like, you can let go of all of your sort of, the book, but the book, you know, when the creator says that. When you get to creator envy, like we're just at a whole different level of acceptance. So it matters to me that the creator sort of like, and often, you know, oftentimes because of, you know, various contracts they've signed, creators will sort of grit and bear it and say that they liked a thing when they didn't really like it. But I feel like you can kind of tell.

And in this case, there's no, there's no mistaking it. Neil is the co-author of this particular adaptation of his own story. and that makes a huge difference to me. And to me is also a reason why. We discussed this some in our spoiler section last time about the timing of when this would happen within the season. Because as you're making these adaptive changes, you can move things around in the timeline.

You can stretch out how long Pedro Pascal is on your show. I'm sure there's a lot of very powerful reasons to do things like that. But Joel has to die. I'm incredibly open-minded to those sorts of postmodern and impressionistic adaptations. There's so many cool things you can do, reworking a story and reimagining a story beyond just going beat for beat.

Like we don't need to always go beat for beat. But at the point where Neil Druckman is an executive producer, it is one of the people running the show. You get a sense that it's going to be fairly faithful to at least the core ideas of the story. And Joel dying is one of the core ideas of the story. Like how this spurs everyone else, it's such an important inciting moment

that in order to like stretch it out or reimagine a version of The Last of Us where Joel doesn't die here but goes on to live a long and happy life growing his own weed in a 7-Eleven somewhere. It just doesn't make sense with the kind of story that they're trying to tell. That would be so soulless. And like I think that, you know, some compelling arguments I've seen from people who are not thrilled by the way the Abby thing has been tweaked. A word that a friend of mine used this morning is like, it lacks some of the ballziness of the video game. And I'm like, I think that's true for the record.

I can kind of agree with that. I can kind of agree with that. If the tradeoff is the same thing doesn't happen to Caitlin Deaver that happened to Laura Bailey, the actress who played Abby in the game, I would take it if you can't be quite that ballsy inside of a TV show versus a video game because you don't have the tool of making someone play a character in order to act as sort of like an empathy machine. I can understand all of that. one last thing I want to say, and then I want to make sure you have everything, you said everything you want to say in a spoiler-free way before we go to the interview is that our listener of wrote in something that I had never heard of that I absolutely love, talking about this idea of hope inside of a story and what it means. So to go back to that suspense versus surprise thing, given that we know what Abby is here to do, we can, to your point, still have some sort of hope that maybe Joel rescuing her from the

throng or swarm is enough to make her change your mind or to your point maybe Jackson being on fire is enough to make her change your mind or something like that. There is a hope inside of given that we know what's coming. There is a hope there. What a beer says is the ancient Greeks thought that the last little bit of hope was a final fuck you from the gods that no matter how bad things got, humans would keep foolishly yearning for something better and it would be a kind of torture. After that episode, I'm wondering if I'm sort of inclined to agree with the ancient Greek interpretation. Does hope just make things harder in the end? Any thoughts about that? Rob? Hope is a final fuck you from the guys. It is the final fuck you. It is what kills you. Like, I think that the role that plays is so important

in this version of Joel's death specifically, like holding us in that moment in the way that they do. I found incredibly impressive, especially for someone who, like, I know what's supposed to happen. I know what previously has happened. But there's been enough swirl. along the way that I'm wondering, are we going to take the same course? I'm wondering, are the character beats going to be the same? Like, could Abby, how resolute will Abby be as, as displayed by this version of the character? And the fact that even I can have hope in a moment like that, and any gamer can have hope that, like, something might change ever so slightly. And then the story would go off on a slightly different course. That's a fucking magical thing to be able to pull off.

And I think really is a tribute to the performances to the writing to Mark Milon's direction in this episode, which like lingers just enough on all of Abby's groups, like apprehensions. Yeah. I'm wondering, like, is one of them going to jump in and be like this, again, like this city is on fire? Like, there's something at stake here that's bigger than us and what we've been after. But you never get that. Like, you never get that hope.

You never get that release. Not you, Manny, but maybe Owen. Maybe someone. Okay. Certainly Mel. Mel seems like she's ready to at least get out of there. Were you a sicko like me? Maybe you weren't.

when I would watch things like Thrones or House the Dragon, when I knew things were supposed to happen in a certain time frame, I would sometimes scrub over the time bar to see how much is left in the episode. Were you like, do you, are you too absorbed in the story and not a weirdo like me? Because like I could see someone watching this episode scrubbing over the time bar to be like, how much time is left? Are we going to drag this into episode three or does this have to happen here in episode two? too. Do any thoughts on that? This is how spoiler sensitive I am. I'm spoiler sensitive even within the episode. Like, I don't want to hit pause at any point in time because I don't want to see the time bar.

I don't want to, I don't want to know how much is left. And if anything, if I'm wondering how much time is left, then I feel like the show has kind of lost me a little bit. I want to be in the shit buried in the snow up to my neck with the zombies. Just chilling out. That's where I want to be. All right. Yeah. Just chilling covered by the body of your dead brethren.

All right. Anything else you want to say in a spoiler-free way before we go to our interview? Just that I think the thing that occurred to me most by the ending of this episode where we get all of the devastation and Jackson, obviously all the personal fallout for Ellie and for Ellie and Joel and Dina and somehow we haven't talked enough about Jesse, if at all on this podcast. I fucking love Jesse. Hopefully we'll have more of an opportunity to do that. But we have not seen Tommy's response yet to seeing his brother's death. And as a as a brother of a brother, I'm just like bracing for the moment. Not looking forward to that, Joe.

I got to say, not looking forward to it. Wow, what a brave perspective from you, thank you. Okay. Well, I'm excited to talk to you about some, I have some, maybe some Jesse stuff to talk about in the spoiler section. Let's go now to our conversation with Gustavo, though. Gustavo, thanks so much for joining us.

It's really a pleasure to get to talk to you about the music of The Last of Us specifically. And when you're writing music for this game and this series and this show, are there rules or parameters that you kind of set out for yourself? Are there things that make your music kind of of of this particular world versus the other things that you write and compose? The question about what's the difference also. Right about, you know, writing for a game or writing for the show. I always felt that I was never writing really for a game.

I was always writing for a story, for a great story, you know. And the way I work, even with films and stuff. In films, in particular, I like to work from the very, very beginning. Hopefully, I will get in even before they filmed anything, you know. So from the script and from conversations with the director, and that's how I started to write music. So the biggest example, because all the score was written prior to anything being shot

was Brokeback Mountain, you know, the full score. And, you know, and then Ang obviously was. was his genius to say, well, I'm going to use this here. When I use this here, we're going to repeat this here. That was all Ang's decision. But I wrote, inspired in the characters and in the story, the game mechanics, you know, allowed me to do that perfect because, as you know, in games, you know, it takes like three years to get them.

Basically writing from the story and from, you know, the told by Neil. and also, you know, some few drawings of the characters, and that's about it. But basically, you know, I, again, I'm writing for stories, for characters, not necessary for a media in particular, and I always, is my connection with the story and the characters that determine how I'm going to approach it, you know. There's always, I mean, that part that for me comes, I don't know, natural, very natural, that are, you know, the emotional connection. And as a matter of fact, I'm not a gamer.

I'm a terrible, terrible gamer. But our son, when I started working in the game, and this was like 10 years ago, you know, he was in his mid-teen years. And he was a very good gamer. And so I enjoy watching him play. So I would sit and just watch him play. And I always thought, you know,

the moment that someone, somebody establish an emotional connection with a gamer, this is going to change. It's going to change the industry in a way. It's going to be something very different. So, you know, after the two Oscars, you know, I was approached by several companies, one of them, very big company with a big project, not only in terms of financially, but also in terms of visibility and stuff. But it was more of the same, you know, just, you know, the combat and killings,

survival, all that stuff, the gymnastics, you know? And I passed. I mean, I like to think also that whatever success I have achieved has to do not only with the things that I've done, but also with the things that I said, no, I'm not doing this, you know, and just waiting sometimes, you know, and that's what it was. I mean, I wait. I wait, and then suddenly Neil appeared, you know, which is funny because when Neil proposed the thing, he was told by somebody. inside naughty dog. No, don't approach. I mean, he's not going to do it. He's, you know,

sometimes after work, he's not going to do it, you know. But, you know, a person really didn't knew me because I do sometimes small projects, too. If I like, if I reverberate with a project, I'll do it.

And if I don't, I won't. That's why I don't have anything that I need to hide from you, you know? I don't have one project in my career, you know, my More than 100 albums produced and stuff that I need to know, this one, no, no. Most likely, some will affect you and some will not or some will like because I did so many things and I have such a wide spectrum of tasting music. But I've always been very picky about what I do.

So when I met Neil and he told me exactly, I mean, he told me exactly those words. to do a story that connects with emotion. And he told me a story, I said, this is it, you know. And then when we learned people were crying, playing the game, you know, it was like the perfect affirmation that, you know, we were in the right track. So it's a very, very special project for me. Because after, again, after the Oscars, after, you know, I have now lots of, I mean, 17 Latin Grammys, two Anglo-Grammys, a Golden Globe, two BAFTAs, you know, I mean,

all those, you know, if you feel that, that's it. okay, you know. And then this came, you know, this came that opened me to a totally new audience, you know, that now listens to some of my other music and some of my other projects. It's been wonderful. It's a project that I really, really feel very close to. I love to hear you talk about the way you're so intentional with silences in your musical composition. Use this phrase, the eloquence of silence.

I love that. I'm curious if there's a silence inside of The Last of Us that you're particularly proud of. There's lots of. Yeah, there's lots of things. It's those spaces that I take, you know, between notes. It's funny that you already heard that because I always, I said, just to make sure that, you know, we know that we're talking about not silence as an absence of sound or of, you know, but silence that it's telling you things. You know, a silence that sometimes is louder than the note that precedes it, you know, or the note that it's fun. And lately I've been, because I have a problem with my mobility, not because, but I think it's funny that having that, I got very attracted to parkour, not to do it myself, but to watch people doing, you know. I'm a big fan of a British group of guys called Storer,

and they do this great things, you know, jumping and buildings and between anything that you can imagine. And I sort of felt a relationship between their jumps and the silences. Because I see when they're going to jump like between two buildings, you know, they run and they sort of measure the jump. You know, they go and they measure it several times before they do it. And then they do it, right? And it's just choosing the right speed and the right note that you're going to jump into that silence, right?

And that's moment in times stand still, you know, but it's full of content that moment, right? And everything is there, right? Emotion, danger. And then the note that you're going to fall now, you know, that is not going to, you're not going to crash, you know? You find a way to gracefully, you know, rolls and stuff and continue, you know. And I feel that those moments when the silence, some of those silence come is like that.

It's like jumping into that, like that, you know. Wow. And it was nothing, you know, nothing. So you can fly or you can do that. When I sent the music for Broadback Mountain, which was very funny because, I sent it I met Ang

and just like less than a month after I sent the music and then I talked to James Seamus which was the producer and he said you know that at the beginning

I thought you were pulling my leg I thought that you know you went and there was nothing and I'm going this is a joke you know actually you know Angus thought that it was

music that I was sending as a sample of stuff that I've done already, right? And he said, you know, he was like pissed because, you know, damn, you know, this could have been perfect for the movie. No, no, this is the music for the movie. Great and stuff, you know. But I think, you know, the silence connects also with the introspective thing of a character, too, you know, the moment that when I broke back, I mean,

those guys didn't talk that much really, right? I mean, they were surrounded by silence, inner silence and outside silence. But it really, I also feel that somehow you are sucked into the story and

in those moments, you know, that you're, somehow it brings you to the story and to the screen and to pay attention, you know, to what is happening. I think that speaks to this very difficult balance that The Last of Us has to walk

where as you're saying, there's these silences, there's these deeply emotional connections with the characters. You also, both in the game and in the series, have to have a kind of music that marries with the activity of the show, of the violence of the show

and everything that's going on. That's where David does a great job, David Fleming, you know, who's also part of the show. He brings that great and very, coherent with what I do too. And, you know, he uses some of the sounds that I also have created and stuff.

So, so, I mean, we, we exchange. I mean, we're actually going to now HBO's doing like a presentation for tastemakers and I guess a potential voters and stuff for the Emmys and other awards, I guess. And we are actually going to perform together. We're going to play, you know, together, the cues that, you know, we did together, cues that, you know, we did together, cues that he did, but we're going to play. also it's a it's a great I think it's a great

combination of us to do the show you know what how does that work in terms of your collaboration that is mainly decided by Craig and Neil tension is something that we both approach

so that mainly is a decision of of Neil or or Craig who's going to tap first into it but usually I mean action is something that goes him and anything that has to do with the emotion or the more personal stuff, you know. Action is more kinetic, really, stuff that sort of accents the action, you know. It's not so personal.

When we get personal, that's, I think, that's when my role plays at any whatever part place, you know. I don't know that there's a more deeply personal. piece of music in The Last of Us, then the theme that I think has become synonymous with the franchise, with these characters. Obviously, is kind of transported to the show as well for the opening credits. Could you tell us just about where the melodic ideas, the ideas for that theme kind of came together for you? Yeah, I always like to say that I'm a big fan of developing working discipline. I mean, you know, when I'm asked about what advice I will give to

you know, people that are starting or, you know, kids that want to get into this and stuff. The first thing that I said is, you know, the importance of the discipline of work. I don't, I don't wait until, you know, a light bulb goes in my head, you know,

oh, I feel inspired today. I work, I work every day. And sometimes it's happened just like that, you know? And sometimes it takes more time. And then in a moment you connect. And the moment, you connect is different that five minutes ago, you know.

You can really tell that something happened, you know? But sometimes it happens immediately, you know? So the main theme is something that happened like that. I mean, I woke up and I went to the Ron Rocco. And I don't know, I had the feeling that the Ronroko was going to be the guy

to do this theme, you know, the main theme. And the whole basic core of the piece, it happened just like that you know the middle section when it opens and it goes to

to a more major kind of mode or something you know that you can see the space you know and the landscapes and all that I added that was on another day but the main thing I don't know

and the beginning too and the beginning too one thing that is really funny because I don't read or write music, right? But I see now sometimes you two super academic musicians that analyze, you know, my music, you know?

I love it. It's really funny. And so a guy was analyzing, you see, you can feel the movement, the passage of time, you know, and it's true. I'm going, yeah, right, you know. Not about that.

And then he said, when I go to that note, he said well that note he said you know that's the devil interval that was in certain period in time the church was forbidden that note in that in particular interval the notes function also in so for the main tonality that note is what they call it you know the devil's interval and you couldn't couldn't use it was forbidden to use that note of course i didn't have this i said well play it backwards and you'll find more. I mean, I just, I heard that note because it, for me, was so spooky, you know,

that give that, that, that thing that. So all that came from all that came really, really, really, very, very like this, you know. And with the Ron Rocco, you know, which has been such an ally, you know, Ali to me, but it's incredible. I'm so, so happy. Actually, today we're releasing, Spitfire is releasing like a digital version of the instrument, which you can do with all the nuances, little nuances,

the hammerings that I do, the slides, all the intensities. I mean, I did all the notes. I'm working on this for almost two years. Oh, congratulations. That sounds incredible. And so very, very exciting. I'm very happy about that. Because I mean, the story with the Ron Rocco is that I,

I was recording things with chattango and with Ron Rocco. It's related to the charango, the Ron Rocco. But the Ronroco really has a total personality of its own because of the range where the instrument is, because it has sustained, which the Charango doesn't have. The charango is very high-pitched, and also you can't play melody and comp with Ron Rocco you can. And also, I mean, the music that I write with the instrument

is not necessary music from the Andes Mountains, which is that instrument, use for, you know? So, I was once called to produce a compilation of Jaime Torres. I will explain Jaime Torres is, was,

because he's not with us anymore, but kind of like a rabbi Shankar of the, of the Chattango, right? So I wanted to show him what I did with the Chalango and with the Ron Rocco and stuff, but I was very

skeptic about what he was going to say because I fingerpick, I play with totally other technique. I play things that are not necessary music from the Andes. I mean, I write things. But finally, one day I took the time and I grew up singing on TV, you know, playing and it was a big fan. And I always play the charango. I always had the charango. I use it in my band. And I always have this thing about identity and showing in my music, who I am, where do I come from? And, but one day I gave in that to him and I said, well, you know, this is something that some friends of mine do, you know. And like three days later, he calls me back and he said, no, no, you're playing here, you know, and you should,

you should say, well, because I, you know, don't play with your technique, you know, and it's not music necessarily. No, no, no, no, no. I've been working on my life to bring, you know, the charango to another stage. I do things, it did things with orchestras and stuff, you know, you should, you should make this record. And so the Ron Rocco album, which is the one that opened, open the doors to the movies to me and therefore to the last of us. It comprises 13 years of my life. That album is recordings of a span of 13 years that I, because I just did for me.

It was something very personal. I put that out and it's a Michael Mann and then, you know, Amores Perros, Iniarito, Babel, and that's why I motorcycle diaries and, you know, one thing. To the other, Brokeback doesn't have Ron Rocco, which is good too because if not it would have been just oh yeah he's only the wrong rock

but it has been a very very important instrument so important that it end up being you know the main guy in the theme of the Last of Us I mean it's you know

very very very nice but you know there's other timbers in the Last of Us that I really like I love I use this this unique guitar not the guitar itself but the strings

that I use, they're only made by a company in Argentina called Magma, and they're an octave lower than a guitar. And you can hear that in unbound and in some of the themes. In the first season and in the first game, I use a six-string thunder bass, which comes from the 60s and stuff, right? Which is, it's lower than a baritone guitar. It's like an octave lower than a guitar, right? This is exactly, these strings are the same, but for a classical guitar. So for game two, you can hear it all through the show too. I use quite a bit this instrument too. I think it's a very particular timber to the show.

And also the banjo, I introduce in the second. I'm not, I'm not pretending to be a banjo player. I use the banjo as a tool as an instrument to create a particular sound that evokes something, but not pretending to be a banjo player. There's great players that do that. I want to ask you, I know it doesn't always necessarily work this way in terms of how you prepare a music for a project,

but I'm curious with something like in episode 2, this big climatic death scene for Joel, I was watching the video game version versus the show version and sort of trying to take note of the differences in the scores between the two. There's like a thumping, almost heartbeat, percussive sound in the video game version. You're going to fucking die. What's going on? Let him go. And then in the show version, you have the moment where Ellie is crawling across the Florida Joel, which isn't in the game.

in the show, we have this really mournful, low-string part to it. So I'm curious about your experience scoring that very famous scene for the game and then once again for the show. Really, I mean, it is really a very close collaboration with the directors and with Craig and with Neil. I mean, it really determines a lot of what I'm doing. And especially because they have the tools now in a way. You know, when they temp, when they do a temp, they already have so much music that I have created. I mean, they have said that my music is part of the DNA of the Last of Us, right?

So they have the DNA there, you know? So they play around with and they kind of, when we get what they're kind of imagining, you know, it's very much clear. Sometimes, you know, we can propose something different and it goes or sometimes not. But usually, I mean, they know what they want and they're right. I mean, and I'm totally also aware that in this game, right, metaphorically, I know my role and I have to really support the vision of the director, you know, not try to impose my vision because it's his vision and that's what I should do. because, you know, I come from Argentina and I'm a football soccer fan, you know. I always say that, you know, sometimes, you know, I'm up there scoring the goals. Sometimes I'm in the middle of the field organizing the game.

Sometimes I'm the goalkeepers. Sometimes I'm the coach. You know, sometimes I'm the physical therapist or sometimes I'm in the grades, just, you know, but I'm always in the match. I'm always in that match playing different roles. And it's important to know what role do you have to play in that particular game. So that I have very, we have very clear. So it's really their vision.

But they are also so in touch with the music, you know. I mean, one of the things that, for example, determined Neil to work with Craig was that Craig, he told me, Neil, Craig knows more about the Las Stas than I do, you know? Yeah, so, so yeah, these people are very, very involved with the music too. They really have made a part. And one of the things also that some, I will make a comment because I've been asked too. And I think it's an interesting point is that sometimes we have used music that in the game, perhaps played in one part, but in a series of plays in other parts.

You can say, oh, I have this related to the moment, this. And basically, what it is is that I feel that I write music that connects with emotions. And emotions repeat, not necessarily. You have an impact situation in your life, right, that marks you or whatever. And then you have some other situation that doesn't have anything to do with that. But somehow there is something in your, in your, your feelings, in your heart that connects with that. So it's finding also the things that connect with that emotion.

That doesn't necessarily have to be. That's why I never like to write like the themes for a particular character. Oh, this is like old-fashioned thing that, oh, there's going to be a theme for Joel and a theme for, no. Yeah. I mean, these are exchangeable. Sometimes, like I said, you can be experiencing different things, different moments with different people. but there's something that resounds and connects with an experience that you had a long time ago, you know. So that's part of the reason that we have this freedom to actually use the music that connects with emotion.

The emotionality, the father-daughter connection is a lot of what drew to the game, that sort of love story between Joel and Ellie. There's also an element of inside of the game and we know it'll come up in the show as well, this shared love of music. It's not a Ron Rocco, but there's this beautiful guitar that is a very important part of the game and of the show. What is that like for you to work on a project where this idea of music and an instrument and connection to music is so written into what's important? Very, very natural. It's like another stepping into one more layer that adds to the mix. I find it very, very nice. I'm about to, I'm not sure I can say, so I'm not going to say,

but I'm about to embark in a project that has a lot of music already because of the characteristics of the project of the film, but I'm also doing a score to it. So it's always a challenge, and in this case, it's going to be much more music coming from already in the movie, you know? but in this case I think it's I mean again you know they they are so precise in the use of the elements you know I mean there's never an overdoing it you know oh yeah that was like too long okay yes but again the guitar you know what I mean but no it's the right moment the precise moment where it should be

and you know there and I know I can assure you I mean I know I know know how incredibly hard they work. I mean, we all do because it's all part of the team. But from their side, I mean, to get to the final cut of what they want. And I mean, it's, I mean, the show started Sunday and Friday we were still working, not in the show for Sunday, but still working on shows for the rest of the season. Yeah. How does it feel to be on the other side of some of that sort of musical lineage?

You know, like, you can play other games and you can tell that their soundtracks are very much borrowing from your score for The Last of Us. You can, as you said, your own tracks are being used as temp tracks for the show. I know a lot of people who are creators and creatives who love writing to your music. A friend was just telling me he loves writing to your album Camino. I feel honored anyhow, you know, that means that I have done something that connect with people, you know? That happened when I won my second Oscar, because even with the first Oscar, you think, okay, I could be, you know, just this lack, you know, whatever, you know. But when the second came, I went, you know, maybe I'm doing something that connects with a lot of people, you know.

It's, it's, it was a great validation to stop the fight, the inner fight with me. I'm going to think about that for a long time. Thank you so much for being so generous with your time. I really, really appreciate it. It's amazing. Thank you guys for thinking this interesting what I do. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound terseptitide may be able to help. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity.

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Pick up fees may apply. All right. Now, what time is it, Rob? It is spoiler time? What else do you want to say in the spoiler warning section to drag it out for people so they can press pause on their podcast? Just that I hope you're doing well, folding your laundry, doing your dishes. This is your opportunity.

Dry your hands. Take a moment of time. Yeah. We're giving you every out possible to a deal. from this podcast. Put down the t-shirt you're folding. Yes. Press pause. This is important. Tap your earbuds, whatever it is you need to do. Do it. You think that the big spoiler is already out there and in some ways it is. Like, Joel is dead. We all know that together. There's so much that happens in these games. I don't want you to know anything about it. So please go away and

come back next week. Join us for the next show. Great job. Okay. No, seriously, go away. Like, do not listen anymore. I'm serious. And if you are still listening, with love and respect, don't send us an email that you got spoiled by us. But you can, but come on, guys. It's your time. Okay. I'm going to start with sex.

We're going to start with sex. I heard sex sells, so that's what we're going to do. Just buried in minute 59 of this podcast. There is a sex scene between Dina and Ellie in the girl house in the, game that is not here because Dean and Ellie are not together, et cetera, et cetera. So I have seen two different reactions to this around, well, I've seen many different reactions to this, but here's conflicting reactions that I've seen around the idea of like queer sex specifically.

Okay. There are some people that are saying, hey, and we got emails about this, hey, maybe they wanted to move the sex scene between Dina and Ellie away from the brutal death scene so that we didn't like bump up against the barrier gaze trope, which is not quite what this would be, but the idea that like any time two queer people experience romantic or sexual joy, something tragic has to happen. Gotcha. You want to move the little death from the big death.

There you go. Love it. Love you for that. Okay. And then if, but then some people are like, hey, is not allowing them to have this moment before Joel's death mean that even if we get it later, which we almost certainly will. But meaning if we get it later, there will be a shadow of tragedy over it in a way that it would have been free of had it happened before the death. So two conflicting ideas, both chasing sort of a pure form of queer joy and queer love inside of this story. So do you have any thoughts about that, around Mahoney? I really hope we get that scene, you know, some version of it. Again, it would have to change if you move it around in the story.

We might just realistically lose it or it may be replaced with a different version of that kind of, like that kind of connection. I was wondering this about the first episode where we get this like very dialed up version of Dina that is just like a charisma bomb from minute one. That is I love the version of Dina in the game, but a little bit different. is part of the reason we get that charisma bomb because they knew they were going to be taking this sequence out. And so you need a lot of like fast tracking L.E. Dina bonding. You need fast tracking audience Dina bonding in a way that's going to shift some of the dynamics involved of everything going forward. And also like I think the other part of this too is while we're talking about interchanging the characters, giving Dina a stake in Joel's death. Yes. Is a meaningful difference. And so you're yeah, you're losing some precious LEDA time and it is precious to me.

I love their relationship in the game. And so I'm eager to see how they sort of adapt to this version of the story where they don't have that moment. But I'm hopeful that they'll find some version of it. We got this to your point about sort of Dina's stake in all of this. We got this email from Coulter who said, there's a line from Dina in the game later that is hugely impactful, quote, where you go, I go. She's ride or die with Ellie and is so without us really knowing what the relationship between Joel and Dina was, without establishing that relationship more post that relationship between Ellie and Dina more post-kiss,

but pre-Jol's death, I'm worried about that dynamic. So yeah, the the showrunners have said putting Dina in that room does give her a stake in this. She was there. She has key information, all this sort of stuff. She goes with Ellie to Seattle. Yeah. But to Coulter's point, that slightly changes. is like Dina goes to Seattle for Ellie.

And now Dina's going to Seattle for Ellie, but also for herself and for Joel and for her own relationship. And I don't mind that as a change, but it is a difference, right? It is. But like these are really exciting adaptive changes to me, right? This idea that Dina, Tommy, and Jesse right now in the story, the change has been pretty mild as far as, you know, little bits of character tweak, little bits of like circumstances here and there. Obviously, this big battle is a show invention. Yeah, Tommy's kid is, I think. Yeah, Tommy's kid, that's a fundamental difference in circumstance, but to this point in the story has not changed his behavior drastically.

But the fact that all these characters are exposed to trauma in a way that feels new, to me means that even if they do all end up meeting, let's say, identical fates to where their stories end in the game, it's all going to feel so different. Like, I think making room for Dina to have actual feelings about Joel, for example, just it changes that character. changes what her arc looks like, if it's anything resembling what it was in the game. Someone, I'm hesitant to do sort of concern trolling about the popularity of various characters. People are going to feel whoever they feel about Abby, about Ellie, about Ellie, about Joel, about et cetera, et cetera. And that's not really any of my business. You know, someone was like, am I supposed, someone, a friend of mine texted me this morning

and she was like, am I supposed to feel sorry for Abby? I was like, that's up to you. That's a you decision. That's a you journey, you know. Boy is it, Joe. As the entire gaming community can attest, what a journey it's been. But our listener Mike says, was thinking about this in a way that I hadn't considered about, Isabel Mirsela who plays Dina, her popularity and what impact that could have.

Because he says, if Abby's story is continuing the direction of us justifying your actions before Joel's death, I think that show fans are going to blame Ellie so much more for continuing her pursuit of revenge rather than settling down with Dina basically because Dina is captured people's hearts so quickly. What do you think about that, Rob? I think it's a really important part of that counterbalance. And so as we're talking about the adaptive changes

that are making us potentially more empathetic to Abby's point of view, right? Like telling us her motive, showing us a little bit of her pain through this dream sequence, and I'm sure we're going to see more of that as it resembles the game. You also need to do work on the other side,

which is we have so much baked in time with Ellie and so much built-in attachment to Ellie. She does some horrible things in the games. And in particular, that decision to basically turn away from what could be some kind of life with Dina for the pursuit of yet more needless revenge. Like, after she's already been rebuffed once and it's like, you know what, I got to go back in pursuit of this thing that will never give me satisfaction is I would say the single most heartbreaking thing for me in the game even more than what happens to Joel, even more than any other, you know, death or terrible moment in the moment in the game. is I would say the single most heartbreaking thing for me in the game, even more than what happens to Joel, even more than any other, you know, death or terrible moment in the story, is the fact that Ellie can't let go of it. And so, yeah, if you make Dina even more sympathetic, even more likable. Yeah. Holy shit is that going to sting when that moment comes.

The thing that I hope for people and everyone is on their own journey of whatever, they can feel however they want to feel about characters. But I hope that that feels like a tragedy and a loss and you're not. feel for Ellie that she just can't let go versus frustration or annoyance with her. Do you know what you mean? But that's, again, everyone's own decision that they can make to that. And I want to end with the Abby stuff, but I have one more thing I want to talk about before we get there, which is the Mel Pregnancy situation. I could not talk to Mallory about this because she wasn't there in the game yet.

But she texted me last night. She's almost there. So we'll be able to talk about it next week on House of Arr. but they did not reveal the Mel pregnancy. Which, wait, wait, wait, hold on. Back it up. Mallory, if you were listening to this podcast, eject. We are now spoilers within spoilers, within spoilers.

Spoilers for Mallory, Rubin. Bye. Okay. So they did not reveal the Mel pregnancy at the beginning of the show game the way that they do. Owen tells Abby basically that Mel is pregnant. There is this like, she's quite upset about that. That is actually like an upset that pushes her towards. this whole movement towards Joel inside of this moment. It is part and parcel of all of that.

There are some vibes in the room, but they held back the Mel pregnancy reveal. My question to you is, to go back to the old Alfred Hitchcock suspense versus surprise thing, does this mean that perhaps when Ellie kills Mel, which she will do, and it is revealed that Mel is pregnant, but we already knew that as you already knew that as a gamer will it be a surprise moment for the audience versus suspense we know most pregnant but

Ellie doesn't what do you think are we a thousand percent sure that she's going to be pregnant in the show no do you feel like you feel like maybe they change that because it's too a bridge too far for Ellie to go look there's some things that are very tough to put on screen for audiences

for example shimmer the horse gets shot in the head will they show that on the show? I don't know. I kind of doubt it because people have such a visceral response when it's an actual horse that's like being visited

some kind of violence upon. Not to compare pregnant women to horses. I'm sorry for the clunky transition point here. But like there are certain things that I just wonder as we've already seen the show pull some of its punches. And as you alluded to, like maybe not be quite as ballsy and daring

in some of the storytelling. Are they willing to kill a pregnant woman? like a quite pregnant woman. Is that something that they're willing to do? Is the torture of other characters going to be as gruesome as it is in the game? Those are the areas where I could see them pulling back a little bit. Where do you specifically, since we're in the spoiler section, are you thinking about like Nora? Like what are you thinking about in terms of you're thinking about the Nora death sequence?

Like Nora's death, it has to be so gnarly that it fucks Ellie up. And I think you can get there. I think you can get there with an HBO audience, certainly. I think you can push that line. pretty far and still have us there with Ellie. Like, you know, the show and the story wants you to be in that place where even after everything we've seen, you kind of do want her to have some kind of closure, some kind of revenge up until the moment she starts torturing people and killing pregnant people,

some tough beats along the way for Ellie. Not like this. Oh, oh, no. Am I complicit in everything that's happening? Oh, no. Am I the baddie? You know what? I will say this about my gaming experience.

I just wanted you to know my hands are clean, Joe. At the end of the first game, the Last of Us, when you're busting through Salt Lake Firefly HQ, you get to the doctor. Yeah. I just sat there when I'm playing the game. Like, I had no idea what was coming. But some modern games, if you just hesitate long enough, will reveal an alternate path and be like, oh, you know what? Oh, is that true. Well, so in The Last of Us, this is 100% true.

But in other, like, prestigious AAA type productions, I'm like, I'm like, Maybe if I literally just wait in this room long enough, it will let me not kill this doctor. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And killed the doctor.

So I just want to be on record about that. That whatever this violence is, I am not a part of it. But no, but you are because the game forces you to be. That's the whole thing of that game is like, you have to do that. And then you have to be the one who do have done it. It's true. On the abbey front, we got a couple, uh, emails about this. this Caitlin, no relation, as far as I know, not actually Caitlin Deaver, but if you are,

cheers. Wanted to know where you, Rob Mahoney, think the seasons are going to split. We alluded to this a little bit, but this is a two-season adaptation of one game. And inside the game, the last one's part two, again, if you're listening to this while washing your dishes and you don't know this, in the last month part two, your POV switches, you do you do three days as LA, then you do three days as Abby, right? And so a question is, do they end the season right at the end of the L.E. POV? And then you would sort of talk to me about this. I think off pod, actually. Yeah. When I mentioned that Caitlin Dever is only a guest star the season, and you were like,

makes sense. And maybe she will be the lead, the top bill actor of season three? What do you think that co-lead? Where do you think that split is going to happen? I think there has to be, more Abbey in this portion of the story that we're about to watch in season two than there is in the equivalent version of the game. For all of the storytelling reasons we've talked about, like, that's a long time to not lay out exactly what her background is, exactly what she's been up to. Like, you need to see a little bit more of it and you need to see some of her circumstances present tense in order for this version of the story to work. So I think we're going to see some Caitlin Dever for sure, but a guest star amount. I think it definitely is the Ellie Revenge Tour,

at least part one of the revenge tour from here on out, culminating in Seattle, like everybody kind of going back to their respective corners. And I say that apart because, correct me if I'm wrong, Joe, but I haven't seen any casting news about Yara and Lev yet. Have we seen anyone announced for those roles? I don't believe so, no. Which leads me to believe that even though we're not going strictly Ellie story,

Abby story, I think the bones of what they're doing is still going to be withholding the vast majority of Abby story for later, specifically the part that, you know, gets real culty. This is what Caitlin wrote. Are people going to care about Abby's relationship with love after they've had a year or two to stew on their hatred for that character? Are they going to bind to the idea that she's just another person in a shitty apocalyptic world who doesn't always make the best choices if they have to make it through a few episodes

to get to know her better? So, yeah, it's a great question, especially like given how long. And we understand why. We love a well-done special effect, but a long, a long time between seasons. these days. All right. But I think that's the goal, right? Like by the end of this season, you want to get to a place where Ellie is kind of the maniac.

And Abby ultimately is like the, you know, an agent of a kind of, at that point, not just revenge, but justice. Lily on the, on the Abby physique front does have like a story point. Oh, this is my favorite front. This is my favorite subject for all of us to dive into is critiquing the physique of a video. game characters as it really, I'm kidding, I'm kidding. On this or any other podcast, what she says is from the game, I loved how Abby's fitness is a story element tied to her trauma. She has to work out to the point of exhaustion every day so she doesn't have night terrors of her father's death. I'm excited to see how they incorporate that into the adaptation. My speculation is instead of lifting, she uses cardio like running or swimming or park or exfit. That way she can still show the physical consequences of her trauma through her speed, endurance, and tactical fitness rather than through brute strength. This can allow the show to keep. that interesting story element without needing Miss Deaver to have Abby's video game physique. So Lily's not saying, how dare they? But she's saying there's a story. There's a story

element peg to Abby's physique. So yeah. Which again, like I feel like a broken record. I feel like I'm battling straw men out here. But it's like part of the reason I feel so protective of Abby as a character is in the moment. The backlash was so severe in a way that was oblivious to moments like this, right? Like, there's a, there's a reason within the story why she has the physique that she does. And it is rooted in the, like, the pain of everything that Joel inflicted upon her. And so that she can't sleep and ends up working out. And I love the CrossFit potential, like, substitute. I think that could be a really smart way to go with this. I also think there's versions of that that just aren't as physical, like the torment that she's experiencing and we're already seeing,

you know, like, whispers of the nightmare. And I'm sure we'll see more of it. And establishing some of these like flashbacks and memories and nightmares is a really important part of the structure of the story going forward for the last of us for both Abby and Ellie both. And so I love that we're getting that. I love that we're going to get a new twist on that version of the character. I would just say like even game wise, it was all there. Like there was there was a reason for Abby to be doing all the things that she did. It's just people couldn't wait for it. And also women don't need a reason to be buffed, but that's okay. All right. But you don't need you don't need trauma to buff up? It helps, I'm sure. Okay. So listen.

That is it for this podcast. We really appreciate Gustavo coming on and talking to us. We really appreciate Donnie Beecham for his work on this podcast. Always. We might have had some extra hands. We're not sure who they are yet. So we will make sure to thank them on a future podcast, putting this all together this week. Thanks to Justin Stales, always, for his tremendous work on this feed. We'll be back with your friends and neighbors. We are doing another Your Friends and Neighbors episode because the people demanded their ham. So we'll serve it up, pipe and fresh. and hot later this week. And we'll be back with The Last of Us, episode three next week. This is your brain on shrooms at gmail.com. We really appreciate your emails. They're the best.

Definitely. We think you guys are the best. Romahoney, I think you's going to say before we go. Just like, can't wait to talk about that tragic death on your friends and neighbors this week, Joe. Who is it? I don't know, but we're going to talk about it. It's CrossFit, not X-Fit. Thank you so much. I'll see you soon. Bye. A plus on the outfit, Miss Turner. You are about to slay parent-teacher conferences. Oh, these? Just the most perfect fitting jeans my stylist sent me. Oh, hello, you, who didn't set one foot in a mall and still looks amazing.

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