The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘The Leftovers’ Hall of Fame: “It’s a Matt, Matt, Matt, Matt World”

Episode Date: August 8, 2024

Jo and Rob demonstrate their faith to revisit a ‘The Leftovers’ episode “It’s a Matt, Matt, Matt, Matt World.” They discuss what it was like rewatching this episode vs. seeing it for the first time, how it serves as a character send-off for Matt Jamison, and the show’s continued exploration of faith and religion throughout its three seasons (4:01). Along the way, they talk about how the series tethers itself to reality through its various ties to popular culture (23:27). Later, they unpack Damon Lindelof’s unique relationship with his critics and how that inspired the events of the episode (36:31). Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney Producer: Kai Grady Additional Production Support: Justin Sayles Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Tara Palmieri. I'm Puck's senior political correspondent and host of Somebody's Got to win. Brought to you by The Ringer and Spotify. The 2024 election has been upended with Joe Biden off the ticket and Donald Trump facing a new challenger, Kamala Harris. If you want to hear what the insiders are really saying about the race, join me Tuesdays and Thursdays as I break it all down with lawmakers, journalists, and political strategists. We'll go deeper than the headlines to the anxieties at the highest levels of power. And of course, we'll chew overall the hot political gossip as we head into this historic election. Be sure to follow. Somebody's got to win at Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. This episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here,

so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty limited time flavors. New Whole Foods, Market Peach, Apricot, Rose, Italian soda. Perfect for a picnic or brunch, as is their trending mango Yuzu chantilly cake. But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious.

Get savings with yellow sales signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. Welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna.

I'm Rob Mahoney. And here we are on a boat, circling Melbourne, and there's weird stuff happening here. We're here to talk about the Leftover's episode. It's a Matt, Matt, Matt, Matt, Matt, world. And I will try to remember every Matt when we say that title going forward. It's four mats.

We're adding to the Leftover's Hall of Fame alongside International Assassin inside the larger prestige TV Hall of Fame, which is a very eclectic hall of fame. But listen, we do what moves us here on the Prestige TV podcast. Look, we have more and more wings being constructed by the day. Clearly, the leftovers is going to have its own little establishment, full of props, full of little, you know, little video presentations. I think there's some real room here for us to explore. Oh, yeah, like a real, like a museum of the disappeared.

Okay, so prestige feed, what's going on? A lot. There's a lot going on. I will just say for our part, we will be doing this episode, and then we will be back in the last week of August and the first week of September. to give you our take on slow horses. We will be doing a slow horses. What happened in the last three seasons of slow horses

just in case you haven't been watching? But you should. You should. Just watch three seasons of slow horses. It's actually a very low bar to clear. Our producer Kai just did in the last week because he's badass. But it's short seasons and they go really quickly and it's just a great show. So we will be tackling season four when it premieres that first week of September.

and we'll be going week to week on that show. But before that season starts, we'll be doing a, like, previously on So Horses episode. So I would say worst case scenario, you could listen to our previously on episode and maybe jump straight into season four. It is a very serialized kind of show in the sense that the seasons are self-contained.

It feels like picking up like almost a pulp fictiony sort of series, a little bit. More so than a lot of other things, yes, I would say so. It's plausible that you could do this. Yes, there are just some relationship dynamic. that do carryover that are important, but oftentimes a show will tell you what they are. So yeah, so this is, we're getting into slow horses. So we're really excited for that.

It's such a good show. We've been having a really fun time revisiting it as we lead up to that. And that is the current plan for the two of us. I'll be back in the between weeks with check-in on my so-called life. It's the 30th anniversary of my so-called life. Did you feel the dust in your bones when I said that? Which is your co-hosting with Jared Leto, right? My favorite cult leader, speaking of cults as we will in this episode, Jared Leto.

I could definitely see Jared Leto on the boat in this episode. No, Jared will not be invited to the podcast, alas. Maybe a future episode, who's to say? But we'll be doing my so-called life sort of check-in. It's not really a Hall of Fame. It's more legacy celebration of a really important television show. And that's what's happening on Glee, on the Pressing TV podcast. But what really is happening is a sex orgy by a lion cult on a boat.

That's what's really happening right this second. Very true. Listen, we are here to talk about this episode. It's a Matt, Matt, Matt, Matt World, which is a mid-season, season, season three episode. Your favorite episode of leftovers, mileage may certainly vary. I think the one we talked about last week, International Assassin, is largely considered to be the best episode or the finale book of Nora, which we already discussed the reason why we're not. covering that one. This episode is often brought up in like, you know, among the other options. It's not like a consensus fave, but it is so wild and audacious. And I think I want to get into

sort of this idea of like watching this episode versus rewatching this episode, which I think is like a very interesting distinction. Let me just say, it's a Matt, Matt, Matt, Matt World, written by Damon Linola Bajak and directed by Nicole Castle. And I just want to really briefly say, We did a lot of like, here are the things that led up to the leftovers. Let's just talk about for one second, pitching forward of the leftovers legacy because Nicole Castle went on to be sort of the foundational director EP of Watchman, certainly not the only director of that show, but she was, you know, oftentimes on TV show, the director who's in first gets to sort of set the look of the show.

And that was Nicole's job on Watchman. and so a show that a lot of people consider to be one of the most visually gorgeous shows to have existed in the last decade or so. And so I, you know, Nicole's work here getting her the gig on Little Lof's next show, Watchmen to really just like blow the walls out visually in that universe and everyone was sort of like following

in her footsteps from there. Yeah, he clearly has his troop. I would say less so of performers, although there are some carryover and more, writers, directors. You see a lot of similarity between the Lindelof properties. Yeah. And then Patrick Somerville, who is not

accredited writer on this episode, but on other episodes and came up with some of the ideas for this episode. He went on to show Run Station 11, a show that I absolutely loved. Hall of Fame win for that as well. Just incredible season of television. And then acting talent,

Joveno Deppo, who was in Watchman, the best episode of Washington, but also in Babel, Babel. Jasmine Savoy Brown, who plays Evie, who is currently on Yellow Jackets, killing it in the Scream franchise, and of course, Margaret Quali. These are all young performers who were sort of found in this show.

So I just wanted to celebrate that as well. Yeah, not a lot of Margaret Quali in season three, unfortunately. Honestly, all of the younger cast, I would say, in season three, kind of either gets benched or in Evie's case is dead, other than like a kind of mysterious appearance. But otherwise, season three definitely zooms in on the adult Avengers portion of the cast. Yeah, I feel, but I feel like that's true

of a lot of characters. They were like, we only have a few episodes. Let's clear a few people out. Okay, Mary's going to move back to Mapleville. Like, you know, a lot of like the side characters are just sort of like pushed out of the way for the core cast. I think that's true.

Regina King is only briefly here. But memorably, the Wu-Tang trampoline will stay with us forever. Eternal. I do think this is a good opportunity to zero in on something in season three that specifically applies to this episode, which is we almost get this series of character sendoffs. And this is really, although Matt does appear later, this is his big moment. This is a synthesis of that character.

It's a continuity of the fact that we get kind of one of these Matt episodes in all three seasons. And I love all three of them personally. I think they make for like a great little trilogy of understanding that character as much as anything. but also the deepest explorations of faith that we get in the leftovers, which is a constant theme. I mean, for a show that is always wrestling with the idea of how you make sense

of the world around you, Matt Jameson is a very specific version of that idea. This is almost probably the last time I'm going to mention the TV show Lost on this episode about the Lozobers. Why are you just putting a lie out there? It could be. Because I spent so much time talking about the Lost DNA

that's in the leftovers, but I should just say really quickly that if Kevin Garvey, Jr. is Jack Shepherd, the character Jack Shepherd from Lost sort of refined. Matt Jameson is an echo, this character, John Locke, who is a really important character

on Lost. Those two characters, Jack Shepherd and John Locke on Lost, there's a very famous episode of Lost called Man of Science, Man of Faith, and this is just sort of their binary. It's like Jack Shepherd, the Doctor, the Man of Science, and John Locke, the Man of Faith. And there's a very famous

moment in Lost where Terry O'Quinn is John Locke, after just plowing headfirst, who cares what happens? He believes in this, that or the other spiritual thing, and he's going to plow ahead. Something happens that shows that he was incorrect. And he just goes, I was wrong. And it's just like a really famous moment. And this is just sort of like what this episode feels like to me.

It's just the sort of Matt Jameson, like, I was wrong episode. But I think it's really fitting that we're doing like a minute we did. a Kevin episode, a mad episode, we would do a Nora episode if we could, but we're doing a man of science, man of faith episode. And it's really that binary that drives a lot of Lindelof's

faith-based explorations, which he does in all of his shows. He's deeply skeptical, while also being deeply curious about religion, what it does for people. I think he's almost the cut and and and you know he's not a singular force there's a lot of great writers who are working

with him but I think the the main thrust here is almost like a I want to believe not in a foxmoulder sort of way but just sort of like but not not in a fox molder sort of way wouldn't I mean foxmoulder does believe like but wouldn't it be nice if I could believe yes you know wouldn't that be a comfort I think a lot of the leftovers is approaching kind of a Kevin senior perspective of like, I'm looking for the signs in the universe that will give me clarity. I'm looking for purpose. And Jesus Christ, every character in season three is looking for some kind of purpose, right? Kevin Sr. is singing and dancing his way to try to stop the apocalypse.

Obviously, Nora is trying to find a way into an alternate dimension. You can see like little glimpses of just like a guy at the airport who desperately needs to get to Antarctica for some reason we don't really understand and we'll never find the answer to it. And Matt's version of that, of course, is he's got to fly. to Australia, to Melbourne, retrieve Kevin, put him on the plane, get him back to Jarden,

all because of some very fuzzy numerology surrounding the seventh anniversary of the departure, that even he can't really articulate why that's supposed to matter other than biblical, biblical, yada yada, 7s, etc., etc. Sorry, thank you so much for doing the premise. The premise of this episode is Matt and the apostles. Conveniently named apostles plus Lori.

travel to Australia, even though the planes have been grounded. We'll talk about the cold open in a second. The planes have been grounded in the desperate bid to get Kevin, this person they've decided might be the Messiah reborn, back to Jordan in time for this anniversary. And because the plane's been grounded, they have to take a cargo plane, then take a boat. And the boat is where most of the episode takes place.

And this happens to be like a pleasure cruise as booked by, by a cult of, you know, a sex cult devoted to a real life ancient lion who came to a zoo and fucked a lot of female lions and made them heavy with Cub. That was a terrible thing to say. Jesus Christ, Joe. What was that? I know. It felt biblical when I was thinking in my head. And then when I said it and I hated it.

Anyway, so that's the premise. So what's really happening is a huge shift for our character, Matt. who has been the, you know, how do you see his arc over his three main episodes that you were sort of outlining earlier? Well, I think this is a good opportunity to get into his whole Job complex. Because it is so clear and laid out,

I think pretty explicitly, that Matt sees himself as a Job-like figure, which is to say someone whose faith is constantly being tested. Every problem that's put in front of him, the obstacle being trying to get to Australia in this episode, he even lays out very cleanly, this is something we need to overcome. To the point that even Mary and his son

up and leaving him is just like another obstacle in his plane. These things that were miracles to him, a season of television ago, are now obstacles in his way to prove himself to God. And if you think about his kind of journeys through those three episodes, it's a lot of Matt trying to prove, prove himself to God is what he thinks he's doing.

But as we kind of unpack and explore here, I think it's a lot more of just him, self-aggrandizing and trying to be righteous in a way that promotes himself and makes him feel good about the whole endeavor as much as anything. I want to come back to that whole like proving himself to God a bit because I think that's there's a lot. I guess there's a piece that I miss our recap which is like whether you believe or not perhaps a man who is God or at least a Kevin Garvey figure David Burton who we met in a international assassin and again in the season two finale is here on the boat. He throws a guy overboard and

and Matt is sort of like running around trying to get justice and hold God, if you prefer, accountable for this seemingly random act of violence, which is, you know, writ large what every character in this show is kind of trying to do. I did want to talk to you about this like binge versus weekly watch piece on this because I think I remember that critics I knew of Matt Zlercites, who were going to come back to because he is an inspiration for this episode, Alan Seppinwall, like a bunch of different critics I really admire just lost their mind. over this episode. And I really liked this episode, but I think I also felt that sort of of week-to-week impatience because the episode before this ends with

like Nora and Kevin breaking up essentially, just having this like horrible fight. And you're so invested in what happens next to Nora and Kevin, and you have to wait. Oh, you have to wait two weeks, actually, and you have to watch this

lion's sex cold boat episode said. And I remember liking the episode, but being impatient. And so liking it so much more on a rewatch, because I know what's coming. And then also inside the episode or inside the character itself, you know things. You know things like that David Burton

is going to get eaten by a lion by the end of this episode or that Matt's cancer is going to kill him pretty soon after this episode, you know, is in the timeline. And so you know, he's not going to get

magically cured by God, who he's talking to on this boat. Snaps be damn. Snaps be damned. And he's just not, he's not going to be around for much longer. And we know that the sort of internal shift that he feels in this episode is he true. And it lasts. It lasts beyond this episode through the rest of his appearance on the show. So what do you think of this idea of like this episode inside the idea of like binging a show

or watching a week to week or rewatching it? Yeah, I would be very curious to talk to somebody who is, experiencing the show for the first time in a bingy sort of format, because if you are consuming the leftovers as a plot engine, which I would not recommend anyone does, but if you were doing that and you're desperate

to get to the end to see what happens, I could see this feeling like a diversion. This feeling like, as you're saying, we want to know what happens with Kevin and in a war specifically among all other things and the fact that we are taking such a hard right turn to not only a Matt story,

but a weird-ass Matt story, Right. I could see that leaving people feeling antsy for the next thing. I just think personally, and this is really, I think, with the leftovers, so well with these little character capsule episodes, Matt transforms in this episode. Like, this is a profoundly affecting experience for one of the core characters of the show. And so it's not just a little field trip on an orgy boat. You're taking something very core to the character.

And I will say, like, this is really the leftovers experience overall. It's like the departure has this effect on all. the characters where it takes something small about them and intensifies it, right? Like the self-destructive part of Kevin gets intensified with the departure, the part of Lori that's like trying to figure out her life and wrestle with everything that's happening around her gets intensified to the point that she joins a cult. I think Matt's like fanaticism and an obsession with not only honoring God, but becoming himself like a gospel writer by the end of the show is what's getting

intensified here. And so the fact that we're confronting that in a really direct way, that is plot. It may not feel like plot in the way that we're not getting the resolution on Kevin and Nora just yet, but this is actually a plot-driven episode. It's just kind of hidden in something else. Yeah, and that interacts with this, like, drum that I'm banging over at House of Arn, we talk about House of the Dragon when people call something like a filler episode. I'm like, if a character that we care about experiences a profound internal shift,

that's not a filler episode. In fact, I rarely believe in the existence of filler episodes at all. but what I do love about outside of like the world of anime and something like that, but what I do love about this season of television because before this episode

we hit the Kevin Garvey Senior episode which can again, it could try your patience a little bit that we're taking like such a departure and we're hanging out with like Kevin Garvey Senior and we're not hanging out with like the rest of the core cast at all in that episode.

What I love about the leftovers and about Lindelof and Coa's storytellers is, you know, they weren't certain, it wasn't certain that they were getting a third and final season. They got a shortened final season, but they got their final season. And they were like, you know what? We're going to do exactly what we want to do.

And it just takes such confidence to have this episode truly, but this episode, you know, we're spending time with John and Laurie and stuff like that. Like that's all happening to. The Kevin Garvey Senior episode that comes before this, a couple episodes before this is such a like, fuck you, we know what story we want to tell and we're going to take our time with it. And the more I rewatched that episode, which again was an episode where I was like,

oh, we're not going to check in with Kevin and Nora. Okay. You know, the more I like, I do, I appreciate it. I appreciate getting to marinate it. Well, and the way that those episodes and that one in particular feed into an episode like, it's a Matt, Matt, Matt, Matt world. Because it's so interesting seeing Matt's role in Kevin, Kevin Sr. story where he's so angry at the pompousness of Kevin Sr. wanting to be in the book of Kevin

and him being so offended by the fact that he's not in it. And not for a second, realizing that he's kind of doing his own version of that same thing by writing it in the first place. And putting that self-importance front and center and making it really the defining quality of the rest of his days, knowing that he is sick, knowing that he is dying. That is how he is trying to make his life meaningful by doing that thing. And you get a glimpse of that by seeing Kevin Sr. By seeing the way these characters are bouncing off each other. And I was actually thinking a lot during this episode about that final Kevin and Nora fight in the hotel in Melbourne of something specifically that Kevin says to her, which is like, you can't have a kid because then you have no excuse. And you wouldn't be a victim anymore. You would have to be okay.

And I think there's a version of that with Matt too where if Matt doesn't make himself suffer all the time for all of these different causes, he would just have to be okay. He would just have to start accepting some of the things around him. And I think that's the transformation that we get in this episode is being a little less in his own head trying to please God all the time

or whatever his version of that is. And a little more my feet are on the ground, where am I? Where are the people who matter to me? How do I make the most of the time I have left in a way that's not writing a book that literally no one outside of Australia will ever read? You brought up Job earlier.

This is an overt sort of adaptation at the end of the book of Job, where Job has a conversation with God, and God sort of refuses to explain himself to Job. It goes a little differently, I'll say, for Job than it does for Matt. It does, and as far as I remember in the Bible, God does not get eaten by a lion, but I haven't re-read it in a while, so I'm not entirely sure. Yeah, I can't remember the twist ending of, you know,

there really are some turns. But yeah, Joe gets a lot. conferred upon him. You know, like he suffers, but then he is rewarded. I think whether you think Matt is rewarded here is something that's open for interpretation and debate. His mind is certainly expanded by the experience. I actually kind of do, because the Matt we meet in the final, like, minute,

and then like the brother that he is able to be to Nora, the connection she's able to have with her. I mean, like, this idea that, like, Mary, that he's steadfast to marry all through Mary's, like, comatose catatonic state, And then as soon as she wakes up and she's a real person that he has to interact with, he cannot do that. And so we talked about this idea last week of connection being the most important thing that you can strive for. That confers meaning and purpose and all of that. And so this idea that he's like, he's telling John, like, proudly like, I picked Jarden over Mary to show my faith and devotion.

And those of us watching are like, no, I feel like you really. away from a relationship that you weren't able to deal with Mary being like a real person with her own thoughts and feelings. Or able to deal with the fact that he's sick and probably die. That too. Yeah. He's clinging on for something. I mean, not only the kind of miracles that he has seen happen around him in Jarden,

but also just like a project, just like everybody else. And that, writing the book of Kevin is his version of that. Yeah. Of purpose and meaning. But I think that he's able to come from like the end of this episode where he's sort of Beautifically is like, that's the guy I was telling you about, okay, God, just got him by a line. Let's circle back to that.

It's an incredible closing line. I want to unpack the, like, I mean, it could mean, it could mean 50 different things as far as what he's actually signaling there. Sure, sure, sure, sure, could. But the fact that he's then able to have this seemingly very healthy connection with Nora. Yeah. And I think if you asked Matt what the best years of his life were, he might say this final time that I got to spend with my.

sister who then didn't show to my funeral, that's a bummer. But like, you know, like, that time that he got to spend with Nora as, like, actually connected and not sort of fanatically obsessed with something else,

you know, that's getting in the way of that. I mean, that's one of the most beautiful scenes of the entire series, is their kind of final reunion and send off before Nora goes into the machine. Yeah. And you really don't get it

without this episode. You don't get it without all of this change. We never get Matt Libs without all of this. Yeah, exactly, exactly. We talked about this last week, but I want to just briefly, the fact that this episode is so, such a profound exploration of grief and faith and broken faith and all of this or stuff,

in the most delightfully absurd background, there's a moment, I mean, pick your favorite moment when, like, Orgy's just happening, like, in the corner of any given shot. But my favorite is when Matt's, when Matt starts bleeding, not just like a little bit on the plane, but like a lot on the boat. And he like, he's like, it's fine, it's fine. It's just there's blood everywhere.

And he just scurries down the room and he just like walks past this guy just like giving an aggressive hand job to another guy. And it's just sort of like, this is a show you're watching. This is the world we're in. And the pop culture associations as well. Like we talked about this last week, but this idea of like, Frazier, this lion is like a weird pop cultural. artifact or whatever else you choose to latch onto in this episode, but it's just all like, you know, or David Burton was like an Olympics commentator and a bronze medalist, you know, like all of this sort of stuff that just feels like, I don't know, anchors everything in

not that being in the Olympics is mundane, but like in the sort of like mundane real world we live in. Like, you know, we're living in a post sudden departure world, but there are still bronze medalists out there who might have turned into God, you know. it might have happened. But I mean, that's how you pull off an episode like this, is you have to have those tethers to reality. I think about the Fisher Protocol situation,

too, where in the follow-up to International Assassin, this idea that in order to launch a nuke, you have to, like, reach into somebody else's actual heart and pull out the key that's needed to activate the nuke. That's an idea that was actually pitched. That is a philosophy and a debate that exists in reality. And there are those all across the leftovers, whether it's Frazier or not,

all of these little tethers to reavers to rea. reality, all of these little tetheres to something that might feel identifiable within this absurd thing that otherwise might not make any sense, otherwise might feel like you're adrift on a sex boat. But it feels real because of those. And I do also have one very important clarifying detail given your background observation about the dude giving the hand job as Matt walks by. Shout out to David Derradan, who's credited on this episode as vigorous hand job guy.

Oh, yeah, that's such a perfect Rob Mahoney detail to on earth. You could go your whole life without a credit like that. Vigorous. That's the word. That's the word. I would say, yeah. You know, get at us. Tag yourself with whatever background figure of the lion cult you feel like most represents you.

For me, it is the guy with a lion mask that has a twig mane absolutely crushing the bongos. Like, I'm just here trying to set some mood music for everybody as they're really getting it going. I love that. I love that. I didn't have time to think about this prompt. I will be. It will be preoccupying me. Well, whatever you're going to be, just don't be the cleanup crew for this unfortunate ferry. I mean, I feel like it's just like empty everything out, just hose it all the way down, right?

Just burn that thing. Sink it to the bottom of the ocean, frankly. Actually, I might be the boat employee, who I think his name is like Lyon, who or Lion, if you prefer, who gets just sort of like swept up into the Orcair. He's just like nursing a beer, chatting people up. Just making out with people and whatever. And he's like, what, a man overboard? What do you mean? Snoring, gasping during sleep, feeling fatigue, ask your doctor about Zepbound, terseptite.

The first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate-to-severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and adults with obesity. Zep-bound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and obesity to improve their OSA. Zep-bound is approved as a 2.5-5-7-point-1. 10, 12.5, or 15 milligram injection. Zepound contains terseptitide and should not be used with other terseptide containing products or any GLP1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepound

is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pins or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zep bound with a sulfonel urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include

nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545. 5979 or visit Zepbound.lily.com Going about to this is Joe piece and the idea of suffering. I think one of my favorite lines in this episode, you talked about the sort of collaborators that recur

in Lidlaw properties. There's also just ideas that he's constantly like wrestling with. Of course. So this idea that David Burton says should I do my bad Australian accent, let's find out it. No, I'm not. Suffering is part of it.

Mate is what he says, right? So, David Lindelof was going to make a Star Wars movie. He is no longer making a Star Wars movie. He was going to make it with our colleague, Andy Greenwald, was sort of tangentially involved. Also in that sort of writer's room that they did for the creation of the Star Wars film was Leslie Headland, who went on to make the Ackleite TV show. And Leslie said something to me in an interview that I was like,

this really feels like it kind of came from a conversation with David Lindelof, where she was talking about in The Acolyte, a show that you can like or not like, it doesn't matter to me. the Jedi idea of like attachment of avoiding attachment because it leads to fear, hate,

corruptibility, yeah. But suffering sort of like being the landing point. And what Leslie said, and then I later found out was sort of something that they talked a lot about in this writer's room

for this Lindelof Star Wars film that we'll never get to see is suffering is just inevitable. Suffering is just part of it. And that's a Buddhist idea that it's like, attachment does leave to suffering. That is something that Buddhism says, and the Buddhist says, suffering is inevitable. Suffering is part of it mate. Like that's just, it is. So it's just sort of like, why would you, why would you deprive yourself of this thing? And it's much like, please stop emailing me, Buddhists. I know it's way more complicated than that. And so I'm not trying to like

claim that I have a firm grasp on this idea. But I think this idea inside of this idea inside of This show where suffering is part of it, also suffering is a choice. Pain is unavoidable. Pain will happen. People will leave you suddenly. You will have cancer. You will this out of the other thing.

How you choose to engage with it is ultimately up to you. And I feel like that's where Matt lands at the end of the episode. He has cancer. Okay. And that scene when he talks to David Burton as God and he sort of almost reverts to his childhood self because he's like, I was sick when I was a kid. my God, that's, yeah. It's so good.

And he's like, you know, he took it away and why did you bring, why did you give it back and all the sort of stuff like that? You know, that's, that we have to believe that that is just sort of like what's running in the background of Matt's brain, you know, for ever since this cancer has returned for him, this childlike absolute fear space that he has cleared it by the end of this episode. And it's like, the pain is still there. He's still going to die of cancer.

I'm dying. He says, Solori very, like, casually. But like, okay. is that suffering? It is if I choose that it is. It is definitely physical pain, and it will be physical pain, and I'm not trying to,

I'm not just saying, like, it depends on your attitude. It's all quick and breezy from there. Whether or not cancer is a problem. He can at least talk about it, though. He can at least put a voice to the fact that he is sick, something he's been denying up and down, not just in this episode,

but in previous episodes, you know, trying to hide these nosebleeds and saying he's taking allergy medicine, as if anyone believes him and certainly Michael knows better and has sort of a sense, as he does with many of these things, that, like, something more serious is happening here, and you should really talk to somebody about it,

and maybe even, you know, like the woman who professionally talks to many people about their problems. Talk to Lori about it. What do you make of Matt's insistence that Lori not be, that we've got John, Michael, and Matthew, plus Lori. What do you make of Matt's insist that Lori not be involved in all of this? The bit that gets me every time I watch this episode

is when he's buying the ferry tickets and he accidentally or maybe on purpose tries to buy three tickets and just the fuck you, Matt. Yeah, and John's like, come on, man. Are you kidding? We're in Tasmania. We're not going to leave Lori in Tasmania.

What are we doing? I do love their positioning in this episode where obviously Lori is kind of a voice of reason opposite Matt's religion and faith. And you also have John as sort of a voice of realism in the group too where John is trying to kind of brace Matt for the idea that they're probably not going to make it back in time. They have this very tight timetable.

Realistically, they're going to have to accept what's happening around them. And I think there's probably some room for us there to sort of unpack what's happened to John over the course of these two seasons and the sanding down of the rougher edges that in some way makes him a less compelling character, but probably a healthier person, if that makes sense. What a yawn to watch a happy healthy person. He has found a kind of piece that Matt is clearly still looking for. And Lori, as much as anyone in this episode, is kind of trying to help him guide, help guide him there, help get him to that place where he can accept the things that are happening around him,

even though she doesn't even know that he's sick yet. I think it's to this core thing that the writers here are trying to tell us, and we'll tell us again in Watchman and told us again previously in Lost, which is like, you can, you know, John has his line, we can't just be going through all of this,

nothing previously the season, right? Like, why do you need a Messiah figure? Why do you need to believe that Kevin X, Y, we can't just be going through all of this for nothing, this suffering, right? So we're seeking meaning. We're seeking purpose, which is what Kevin Garvey Sr. says when he's like, encounters a chicken that might tell him where to go or like whatever it is. We're seeking purpose or seeking meaning. We're seeking answers, an explanation for the suffering. When the answer, this is going to sound so hokey, but it's not hokey because they are so good. good at what they do is love and connection. And so, like, when John and Lori make this, like, love match, and they're just sort of,

like, doing fine pretty much all season. Give or take, conning some people out of some money, but doing great. Then they spread the money. I guess. So they're just taking money and then destroying it, all a laud the Joker. They're just, like, making people feel better, right? I guess. I think.

But when John finds out that Lori, he kept from him this idea that Kevin saw Evie. Yes. And he doesn't demand more answers. We know she has a photo on her phone of this woman. He doesn't come to show me the photo or anything like that. He just sort of like, she's like, it wasn't her. And I didn't want to tell you because I thought it would hurt you.

And he just accepts that. And it's just sort of like love again and again. And very specifically in the finale of the show becomes this act of faith. Right. this is just sort of giving over. I believe you. Of course I believe you. You're here.

You know what I mean? Like it's just like that's that's what you should be chasing. Not a really strange guy and a red baseball cap who will just be an absolute dick to you once you catch him and strap him into a wheelchair. Yeah. I really love John in this episode. A character that I like have, I agree with you that it's not. on as interesting a character to watch, but it was a character I really struggled with in season two.

And I just really, I really love this turn for John and Laurie. Like, what an idea, like, when we meet them at the beginning of the season and they're just, like, married, you're sort of like, oh, uh-huh. I hadn't put that together, but you see them, and it works.

What didn't work for you about John in season two? Um, I mean, he is a radical, right? He's someone who is as aggressive and violent in his repudiation of this sort of faith, as anybody that we've seen in the show. Like, you know, the guilty remnant, I think a lot of the members are pretty passive, right?

And it's a pretty passive form of resistance and remembering other than the Meg kind of division. Yeah. But like John is out here burning people's houses down for the mere insistence that something magical or miraculous might be happening in Jarden. And that, I think that is a hard thing to watch and to wrap your head around

and to deal with on a consistent basis. But as far as a narrative force, I like the way all the other characters bounce off of him. I would say more interesting than in, enjoyable to be. Oh, sure. Makes sense? 100%.

And he and Erica, I will say, like, their stories don't end with season two, but they do each find a kind of closure in figuring out what happened to Evie and, like, going their separate ways. And clearly, John is healthier for it. And we see Erica and she seems to be healthier for it in the glimpse of her we get in this season. I do miss them.

I do miss those versions of them that we had in season two, though. Yeah, I do. and I also love I love that when we meet Erica and she's just like fine she's good you know I guess that's that's a sort of thing

it's like it's what I was like always chasing when watching Succession which is something Succession was never going to give me which is like I just want these characters to be okay they didn't even deserve that and I still just wanted it for them and I think again and again what the leftovers will show us

with these tortured characters is like you know, give or take, they find a way to be okay. And it, you know, doesn't have to be great. And it certainly is rarely grandiose. Yeah. But it's just like, I'm okay.

You know, I'm going to be okay. And that's, again, all that any of us could hope for. Okay, I want to talk about this, like, very peculiar to him, Damon Linne Love, relationship with his critics piece of this episode.

So as you mentioned, this episode is partially inspired by the TV critic for Vulture, or actually larger, just a critic for Vulture, Matt Zeller Sites, brilliant critic, great writer. Damon has said there's actually an episode of the Vulture TV podcast where Damon, Lindeloff, and Matt Zillersites have a conversation about how Matt's, both his criticism of the show and then some personal biographical sort of experiences help inspired. this episode of television, which is a really interesting conversation. But, like, Damon Lindelof's experience with his critics is something I've never seen another showrunner do. Other showrunners will get, like, chummy with critics sometimes or whatever. But the way in which Lindelof, like, engages with draws inspiration from often brings into the fold.

We mentioned that our colleague Andy was, like, working with Damon, but also, like, the opening of season two is directly inspired by trying to piss off Andy Green. And he becomes the namesake of a horse, I believe, as well. Or, like, Doc Jensen, who was, like, the number one lost TV recapper, went on to work on Watchmen. You know, like, demons are always, like, if you're really interested in my work, I'm really interested in, like, how you think, and I might, that might be, like, add to my work going forward if you, if you want to come along sort of thing.

Yeah. And I was, I've been, I've been always, I've always been so curious about this, because again, and is very distinctive to this particular creator. And I think what I've landed on is, it really, rewatching this episode really helped me understand it. When Matt is talking to David Burton, who might be God,

and he's looking for approval, which we all are. From the ultimate daddy. From the ultimate daddy. Daddy himself. But he's also looking for, like, criticism at the same time.

And I think this thing that, I will say, my relationship with David and Love is much more tenuous, but I did do a recap podcast about Lost all through the pandemic, which David Lindelof occasionally guested on. He listened to the whole thing, but lied to me the whole time and told me he wasn't listening to it, only to tell me at the very end that he was.

And he told me that, like, live during an interview on the podcast. And it's one of the, like, scariest moments of my entire life. Because he's like, actually I've been listening this whole time. And I nearly dropped dead. Did you respond as John does to his big reveal, which is I understand and I wouldn't have told me either? No, I, like, try not to cry on a microphone, Because my mind was just like, what have I said?

What have I said? What have I said? Run the tape. For years. For years. And I was actually like kind of, I was like mad about it. And I sort of thought about it more. And I think what I really understood was like he really wanted to hear what we really thought about.

That's what he said. And I kind of believe him that he like really wanted to hear what we really thought about the show. Yeah. Without us worrying that he was listening or trying to. to curry favor with him in any kind of way. And so I think the thing about, and he says this a bit in the conversation he has with Matt Zeller sites on the Vulture TV podcast, which is this idea of like a critic will vibe with you until they turn on you.

And that's the thing about a critic. Like trying to, trying to court a critic is like they will turn on you and they will cut you up if they don't like what you've done, which means, which makes their praise kind of the only praise worth having. Yeah. You know what I mean? Because they're not going to lie to you. And so then you're chasing that high of like,

well, this person who gave me shit for all this other stuff is now actually like liking what I'm doing or enjoying what I'm doing. Oh, they love the leftover season two now. Yeah. They hated season one. They love season two. Cool. Must be great.

Like, what did you make of hearing that Matt Seller-Sites's writing and his life sort of was inspirational for this episode of television? On the one hand, not surprising for the reasons you just laid out, right? This is a creator who has a very intimate relationship with reception of his shows and movies and the things he creates. I have mixed feelings about that sort of dynamic in general. We've certainly seen it go in a spiral in negative directions

with other creators, Koff Koffi-A-Lopez. There's times to log off and there's times to step back and there's times to create something you can be proud of and put it out in the world. And I understand the temptation to check in on how people are feeling about it. I think we're all vulnerable to that on a certain level. I think it's interesting about Damon is the way that that then informs the creative process.

It's not just answering something somebody said on Reddit. It's Matt Zoller-Sight's personal life factoring into this episode, right? Fueling and creating. And there is a symbiotic nature there that I think is really unique. And it's something that's really hard to replicate and that, yeah, leaves you a little bit vulnerable and exposed to negative criticism when it comes in. But clearly for him, it's an important part of his process. Yeah, I think it's, it's, I haven't.

seen in any other showrunner. And I am of two minds about it. And I bet you he is too. Like to your point. You have to be. Yeah. There's like upsides and downsides, I think, to this particular kind of interaction. What do you want to say about David Burton as a character and like this question at the end

of the episode of like whether or not does Matt believe he's God? Do you believe he's God? God like figure? Like what do you think? Well, I think it does just work as a great. framing for an episode about faith, that this episode is really about Matt seeing something or thinking he sees something and running around the boat trying to convince other people to believe him. The structure of that, I think, makes a lot of inherent sense. But it's all

kind of just kind of wandering around these ideas of belief, of what is important to Matt. His want to inflict vengeance on David Burton slash maybe God, I think is a very interesting side of Matt. And it's one of my favorite parts about Chris Eccleson's performance as Matt, which is capturing this sort of exuberance and sometimes joy and sometimes like pure piety, but also there's a kind of mania to him

that goes all throughout his performance and especially this hard edge where it's like all of that smiling and all of that optimism. There's something very dark and very broken just behind it. And it's like if you just poke him a little bit too hard, you might crack it and get to it.

And you see that when he is really trying to get a little posse together to compel David Burton to confess he's trying to convince John and Michael to come with him and I love the line from John about we are not reaping anybody man sometimes you need to be told not to reap anybody yeah yeah another aspect that I love is like

we the audience know that David Burton has some connection at least to this other space because we've seen him there twice so we know something that, you know, we're the man of science and the man of faith. We have some evidence of something.

And there's also the stories we get kind of strewn throughout the show about this man in Australia later confirmed you be David Burton who died in this climbing accident or reportedly died in this climbing accident. And then when his friend returned to help claim the body, he was miraculously okay and started calling himself God. The fact that everyone but Lori on this boat kind of believes that Kevin Garvey Jr. might be some sort of Messiah figure.

Well, at least our apostles, Lion cult accepted. They're busy doing their own stuff. You're right. I'm sorry, of our main cast members. Whereas they refuse to believe the same thing about this guy. This is the whole thing, right? I would say the answer to that question is,

based on what we know about these characters, David Burton is as much God as Kevin is, which is to say, neither is probably God. Right. As Lori helpfully lays out, How could God be somebody out there shitting four times a day? That just doesn't make sense.

It does explain the sleepwalking, though. He is haunted by IBS, clearly. He is in search of something, and it is a stray toilet. Like, our guy is constantly on the prowl. Like, it's as much about that confrontation as anything of, you know, Matt hears this idea that this guy is claiming to be God, and he hears about his experience, that he supposedly came back from the dead.

And to him, it reads as insane. reads as blasphemous when he in fact is writing a gospel basically asserting the same thing about Kevin. I think the difference is Kevin is not out there like saying that he's Jesus or God, but Matt is trying to convince him that he is. So what ultimately is the difference there? Well, but also Nora is like, you know, accusing Kevin earlier of like, I think you like it actually. Like I think you actually kind of buy into it. Kevin like Damon Lone Dahloff is out there reading his own press. You know, he is breezing through the book of Kevin on the flight. I have been thinking a lot because of my

coverage of House of Dragon, I'm thinking a lot about Jesus Christ Super Star, I can only be myself. And in that... We support you here, Joe. Thank you so much. In that show, there's a song, Heaven on their minds. I think that's what's called. Where Judas says, of Jesus, you started to believe the things they say of you,

you really do believe this talk of God is true. Or I remember when this whole thing began, no talk of God then. We called you a man. Like, this idea of... That expression of Jesus is about, like, is Kevin as much of Jesus as Jesus ever was? Is David as much of a Jesus as Jesus ever was? Well, David would tell you Jesus was not really that big a deal at all. In fact, he was just a guy with a twin brother.

He was as much Jesus as Christian Bale and the prestige is Jesus. Wow, spoilers for the prestige. Mid-spoilers, mid-movie spoilers for the prestige. But yeah, it's all, and this is a quote from the left-overs, is all just a story I told. myself a stupid story, and I believed it because I've gone a bit crazy, haven't I? That's grace to Kevin Garvey's here, this idea of like these stories we tell, this book of Kevin, this gospel that has gotten out of control, what do you choose to believe? And to what end, to what self-aggrandizing end, to what self-soothing end?

And what sort of self-awareness, honestly? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Grace talks about going crazy. Almost all of the main cast at some point in season three has some kind of. conversation where they say, I think I'm going crazy. Kevin, Nora, John, Kevin Senior, they're all doing this at the same time. Matt is not one of those characters until this episode, really, where he doesn't say it out loud. But that's clearly what he's confronting is this idea of, am I going crazy? Is my faith for nothing? Is this guy actually God? You know, like, this is

his long night of the soul. And I think it makes for a fucking incredible episode, but it also just makes for a great expansion of that character and a great through line in terms of everything we know about him to this point. Everything he's put himself through and suffered through, oftentimes willingly, this is where it should end. This is the place it should go. I want to check in with you about what else you want to say, but one thing that takes

this episode and rushes up just one more level is this cold open that we get inside the submarine. One of many great. I love the cave woman, all of the different cold opens we get throughout the run of the leftovers. And I know you and I have been talking to about

the way they pull off some of the cliffhangers at the ends of these episodes, too? Yeah, we were saying in sort of sharp contrast to maybe a Bill Camp as presumed innocent cliffhanger. I only watch properties where Bill Camp is God, though. Those are the only shows that I watch. Like, we were talking about presumed innocent and sort of the, I don't know, it felt like an abuse of the cliffhanger in presumed innocent. And this is just like a really tasty, some of these episodes sort of, we get the classic

lost, this is a blank episode, this is a mad episode, this is a Kevin episode, blah, blah, but sometimes the next episode will bleed into the end of the one that you were just watching and in a way that is quite fun and delicious, I think, the anti-presumed isn't a cliffhanger, sorry. But yeah, this cold open on the submarine is just so striking. And I'm not even sure I could tell you why. So we open with, you were talking about it. And I had forgotten that this is true because I was still in my season two of my. rewatch, but that season three, each episode starts with a different song in the opening credits and the opening of this one is a prayer in French that I believe Nick Kuse, you know,

co-writer of International Assassin wrote for this guy on the submarine who was about to pull off this big moment. And if you look up the actual words, it's extraordinary. It's an extraordinary. It's It's an extraordinary. It's an extraordinary thing. And that's what I love about when the when the Lidloff properties are really in their bag. I mentioned Doc Jensen, Jeff Jensen earlier, the great lost recaper. He would be in charge of writing these like extra, like, ephemera that went with Washington, these like side studies of characters like that that would find their way like into the vinyl or online or something like that. There's just this like added. ephemera, this added lore. And so this opening of this episode is something that, like, I would say probably 80% of the people watching leftovers will never care to discover what it is or what the actual words are. Yeah, they might idea it as French. Right.

So there's some French shit happening. There's a French mumbling at the beginning of this episode. What does it mean? But Nick Hughes, like, there's bars in that prayer. It's incredible. And then we get this like opening, which is visually arresting not just because this dude is running like butt-ass naked through a submarine that that visual itself gets you maybe like

ready for the vigorous hand job that you're going to see later. But just sort of like the artistry of it, like it's beautiful. The way that he like extends his body to turn one key with his toe and the other with his hand. Just incredible extension on the Warrior 3 my guy is hitting here. Strip down for maximum flexibility. I have to assume that's the reason why. he's not wearing any clothes. He's just trying to get every

inch of extension he can get to get to those keys. It's incredible. I also love, as far as the opening prayer. Yeah. I mean, for one, you're right. Most people will not look up the translation of that. It's not that important to them or it's just kind of scene dressing. If you do, you get a pretty clear articulation

of why this guy is launching a nuke, which is, you know, everyone's on a mission in this season. And this guy's mission is to destroy a world ending sea monster that may or may not be hidden inside an egg and a volcano. Do you want to read any of this out? Let me look at the choice bits here. Because this monster is about to end mankind, with its seven heads and its seven firing mouths, we only have one last hope, the egg.

In the demonist cards, I found it, hidden in a nest, a volcano in the sea. Thank God for technology. In our progress, we made the weapon to end all weapons, the nuclear bomb. Now its terrible power can be our salvation. This guy's just trying to save the world like everybody else. He's doing it a little differently. I mean, Kevin Garvey Sr. Belisi has to sing to stop the rain. You know, like there's a lot of apocalyptic stuff happening all around.

Who says one of them is not a sea monster that was just eradicated by a French hero. And that's the thing. Like, if the whole episode and really the entire project of the leftovers is in large part about belief, here's a man literally willing to launch a nuclear weapon based on his faith in something that's going to happen. And to us, it seems crazy in the way that David Burton seems crazy to Matt at first. And yet, the more that those two talk, the more it seems like he's convinced that David Burton actually is God. Anything you want to say about the way that subsists, and we talked about it a little bit already,

but this turned to camera that Chris Eccleson does, which the director of the episode, Nicole Castle has credited him with it being his idea to do this. He says he doesn't remember it that way, but let's give it to Chris. He got screwed over by the BBC and Doctor Who, so we can give him this. It's a tough draw on the writing for that season. He did his best. Honestly, you can see a lot of the similar exuberance and mania in that version of the doctor, too. No, I mean, I think Chris Ecclinson is the doctor.

I think in an underrated season of Doctor Who, actually. Well, increasingly with time, it's not the worst anymore. We can confidently say that. That's true. But, yeah, this strange friendliness that, that can sometimes be menace that he sort of specialized in in the doctor

is sort of the perfect brew he brings here. But I think him turning to the camera and saying, that's a guy I was telling you about. Yeah. Maybe I live in a bubble, but that has emerged as like maybe the... It's fantastic.

This is the last week to talk about the lefters. So let's just put it all on the table. Let's do it. It's either Matt turning the camera and saying that's the guy was telling you about, or Nora in the hotel room under the sprinklers. I think, yeah.

Where, like, that water and her tears are sort of combined. Any other sort of, like, lingering images from leftovers that are, like, the leftovers image for you? The hotel room is definitely up there. And as far as, like, cliffhanger-type endings as well, like, that is as big and emotional cliffhanger as you're going to get at the end of an episode, a devastating fight leading to that kind of visual.

I mentioned to you, too, that in Lenz, the season two episode, I think my favorite scene in the entire show is Erica and Nora, when Nora is giving Erica the questionnaire about whether Evie has disappeared or not. And I think that scene captures some of what is so great, too, about this exchange between Matt and David Burton, which is within conversation, the exchange of power, and the shifting dynamic of who is in control and who is holding who to account and who is getting to dictate terms.

Like in that scene, it feels like Nora is in control until all of a sudden she is very, not. And she's the one kind of in a puddle on the floor. And in this episode, like, Matt is interrogating David Burton. And he comes out basically begging for God's help through David Burton or God, however you want to see it. But it's increasingly clear the more he talks to him, the more that he is treating him like God to the point that, as you mentioned earlier, you get this sort of infantilized version of Matt. You know, as soon as he kind of veers into talking about his illness and growing up with it and it being back, I just think we get something in that moment

and the softness in Matt's voice from Chris Eccleston, the transformation into being like this desperate little boy again. That is that is the kind of shit that really only the leftovers can do at this level. And I just haven't seen it anywhere on TV. There's a lot of great dialogue. There's a lot of great banter all over the place. There's a lot of big, meaningful speeches.

I think this show consolidates those sorts of conversations of transformation within character and shifting power between characters as well as anything we've ever seen. I love David Burton's assurance of like, I'm not worried you're going to uncut me it, like when you got what you want, which he does.

I'm not going to talk about lust. And then even the like the almost magical spell idea of like if you say the name of Frasier the Lion after midnight you become him. When you get into Gremlin-type rules, things are really getting serious. Yeah. Don't feed the line every minute.

But the way, okay, so then if Matt becomes, this is the over-thinking time of the podcast, Matt becomes Frasier, and certainly in that interrogation scene of David, when like Matt is riled up, the lion is roaring. You know what I mean? And by the way,

they brought a real lion on a boat for this episode, which is why I went $30,000 over budget. Is that a lion insurance? I mean, probably. I was wondering a lot about the specifics of the lion cult. I have to say, like, do they have a treasurer? Like, what are their bylaws?

I just want to know more about the cult. It seems very Lucy Goosey. There's a one moment. There's a one with a manifest, and then she just sort of like, then she gets into the evening. I guess there really is only the one rule now that I think about it. But the one rule of lion's sex cult is you don't talk about lion's sex cult. Lest you become part of the lions, really become the lion. And blessings to Matt for not taking you.

of the lioness receptacle that they roll out. I'm just glad we didn't watch that. I'm going to put lioness receptacle up there with me saying heavy with Cub as like two things. I hope we never say again. But if Matt becomes a lion, and the lion eats God by the end of the episode, is that your interpretation of like what happens

in this episode of television? I think that could definitely be part of it. I think with the that's the guy I was telling you about, is the guy that he was telling them about, Richard or David Burton who he's been trying to find and locate and telling his friends about the entire time.

Like that's the guy, that's the murderer that I've been telling you about. It's Welsh actor Richard Burton. I almost put my burdens. Never swap your burdens. It's very important. Not Richard,

but David Burton. Is it the guy who we saw kill someone? Yes. Is it the guy who's on the top deck who is a guy who threw someone overboard who is now dead? Is the guy he was telling them about

God, who he's been telling everyone about more or less his entire life, meaning this is God's divine wrath striking down an impersonator, a false idol. Or is he saying that's God

who's getting eaten by a lion? I actually do believe that to be God, but he's getting eaten by a lion. My interpretation of that is, and the best part of this episode is it's up to you to decide what you want that to mean. But my idea is,

that's God, who I've been telling you about all my life, all series. Yeah. To anyone who will listen, I've been talking about God. That's the guy

I was telling you about, turns out he's just a guy and a guy who could get eaten by a line. And I think it's just diminishing God in his, in terms of the real estate, he takes up in his brain, diminishing God, right sizing is a thing that might say, right sizing God to like his appropriate role in Matt's life. Yes. And so that's God, that's the guy I was telling you about, he's just a guy who could get eaten by a lion, you know, He's a guy who tosses people overboard, you know, like, but he's also a guy who can dispense wisdom to a certain degree. Like, he's capricious, he's malicious, but there are also moments of, like, grace or

absolution that come with him. And again, I think that's just sort of, like, taking God down to the exact right amount of space that he should be taking up in this person's life. And this is the reason I think why David Burton slash God can so easily and calmly parry away all of Matt's questions during the interrogation scene is Matt doesn't really want to know what happened to the dinosaurs or even really what happened in the sudden departure. He just wants to know that there is capital A, capital R, a reason for all of this. That there is a reason to what's happening in the universe and to what he is doing personally

in response to it. And so taking that and really his response being the fact that like this version of God or David Burton says that the reason 2% of the world's population disappeared is because he could, which is really not so different from God's whole situation with Job, if we're being honest about the way that lays out. It's a lot of like, yeah, I kind of ruined your life because I could, because I kind of wanted to see what you would do. Yeah, a real train places, interpretation of the book of Joe, which I support. Okay, anything else you want to say about this episode or the left reference as a whole while you have an excuse to talk about this

masterpiece television from home? God, do we really not have any more excuses? Is this it for us? No, I'm sure we'll find some reason. We should put lens. We should just make the prestige hall of fame just like 50% left over the episodes. God damn, it's so good. It is. One thing, and we forgot to mention this during International Assassin, one of our listeners pointed out, the use of choral music of opera music in that episode is so key and was

allegedly inspired by the use of Bach and Diehard, this idea of grand classical orchestral music underlining the drama of this sort of like, you know, one guy in a gun kind of story. The use of the like church choir choral music

behind the prayer you're talking about, right? But no, throughout the season. Oh, sure. Oh, throughout the season. All season, something will happen all of a sudden, you'll just like hear the church choir come in and just it's such a brilliant, absurd, like, you know, something happens

and someone decides as a sign or someone decides it's not a sign or whatever. But you can see that in the future like mythologizing of Kevin, this is one of those moments where Kevin turned water into wine or something like that, you know. Lori says Kevin is not the second coming and the plane immediately shakes from turbulence. Exactly. And Matt has this shit any grin on his face. That fucking guy.

Yeah. All right. What else do you want to say? Well, I wanted to say as far as the opening prayer, too, behind that, you do get kind of a building chorus. Yes. And also the like steady ping of sonar, which is like whoever came up with the sound design on that, like, fucking A man. It's so, it's so great. And in retrospect, I think a lot of people, a lot of people were surprised by, I think, season three, delving so overtly into the mythology, like the mythology of the characters in real time, right? this idea of the book of Kevin and the book of Nora.

Like those are big ideas to throw into a TV show. But for a series that has always been themes and parables, it's really not so far-fetched that we would just get heavy into scripture at a certain point and like literal overt characters writing gospels. Yeah. It's one of those things that like all these characterizations, in retrospect, feels like exactly where it was supposed to go. Nora grappling with a goat on a muddy hillside at the end of all things.

Well, she has to absolve its sins. There you go. All right, this has been, it's a Matt, Matt, Matt, Matt World, which joins International Assassin into the Prestige TV Hall of Fame. And they're both looking at each other being like, where's Book of Nora? So let's just say Book of Nora is also in there. It's grandfathered in. It's just in there. Yes.

Probably all of Andy's Stick the Landing episodes belong in the Prestige TV Hall of Fame. Even Game of Thrones when he gets to it. No, just kidding. All right. So. Woo. Rob Mahoney. Yes. Joanna Robinson.

Where can folks find you talking about things that are not prestige television? Why would you want to do that? I've heard that people like basketball. You can find me on the Ringer NBA show on normally a regular basis, although we're kind of sleepy right now. The feed is a little dormant. So honestly, at this point in time, you'll probably hear me most often talking very soon about slow horses.

You can also catch Rob occasionally on the big pick, Bill Simmons podcast if you've heard of that little indie indie show I am going to make a swing over to the ringer verse feed soon for I think I'm going to really live to regret this but a podcast

about the Borderlands movie looking rough but Kate Blanchett our greatest living actor is in that movie and so I am willing to see where it goes you think I'm going to get a similar level of thematic depths as the leftovers

in Borderlands. Are you doing that on Mint a Dish? Where are you doing that? Doing that on button mash with our guy, Ben Lindberg. Love, Ben. Do not play any video games that really admire when you guys do with you. You should come on House of Ar.

We'll figure out something for you to talk about. What the hell? I'm waiting for the invite. Okay, okay. I'll find a spot for you. I got some House of the Dragon takes. Yeah, you do. I know that about you.

Occasionally from time to time. I know that about you. All right. Thanks to Kai Grady, as always, the best. the king thanks to justin sales for his additional work across this feed and we will see you i'll see you leaning against a locker for my so-called life and we will see you at slow house for slow horses a little later this month keep the faith bye