The Prestige TV Podcast - 'The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel' Mid-Season Check-In

Episode Date: March 1, 2022

Joanna Robinson is joined by Mallory Rubin to discuss the big to do with the newest season of 'The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel'. They check in to see what social issues the show attempts to grapple with, meeting historical comedic figures, as well as some missing kids. Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Then set the scene with Hampton Bay string lights that bring it all together. Shop Spring backyard days for seven days at the Home Depot. through May 6th. Exclusion supplies.com.com slash price match for details. Welcome back into the Prestige TV podcast feed. We're here to talk about marvelous Mrs. Maisel and I'm here with a marvelous. Mallory Rubin. Hi, Mallory. How are you? Oh, Joanna. I'm here in my cape, just like Abe, ready to hit the town and ready to podcast with you. Did you swirl as you sat down at your desk to podcast? In my mind, I swirled.

I love that. Um, are. All right, so what we are here to do is to talk about the first half of the penultimate season of the Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, the Amazon original show. So to be clear, crystal clear, here are the episodes we will be talking about. Nothing more, nothing less. Rumble on the Wonder Wheel, Billy Jones on the Orgy Lamps, everything is Belmore and interesting people on Christopher Street. that's episodes one through four, all of which were either written or directed by some combination

of Amy Sherman Palladino and her husband, Daniel Palladino. So that is the state of affairs. Some Gilmore Girls' topics might be on the table. A little light dusting of bunheads might be here as well, but that is what we were talking about here. So if you're not caught up to episode four of season four of the Marvelous Mrs. Maisel,

now is your time to jump off. Just a quick programming note before we get into the specifics of this show to say that the PrestiHTV podcast feed is like absolutely humming right now with a lot of a lot of different shows. Chris Ryan and I just wrapped up Euphoria. Mallory and Bill talked about super pumped. Last week, Van and I talked about Severance. Great Apple show. And then later this week, Jody Cantor and I will be talking about the dropout. So and that's just the beginning of what's coming on this feed.

There's a lot going on. So, you know, tune in, find out more about all your favorite shows. We're here in the Palladinoverse for the next foreseeable hour to talk about this world. I want to ask you first, Mallory, like what your relationship is with this show, with Maisel itself. I enjoy it. I loved the first stretch of the show. like seasons one and two. I was really into it.

Sitting down and just like falling fully into the binge, you know, working my way through many, many, many hours of this family strife at a time. And I, in season three, I think like a lot of measlesal viewers,

you know, kept with it and enjoyed swaths of it. And like some parts of season three are among my favorites, specifically a Miami stretch. featuring Lenny that I have no doubt we'll talk about later. And there were other parts of season three that like didn't feel like they hit just something, like that specific mazel energy and brew that felt so specific to the show in the first two seasons. And that part of the season three viewing was when I started to wonder kind of what the end game of the show was, like what the

ultimate goal and intent and vision of the show was. But I've never stopped in just. enjoying watching Maisel, even when it's less successful in a given episode or a given scene or a given storyline. I'm invested ultimately in the outcome for Midge and Co. How about you? I think that's a really good point. I think when you have a character like Midge Mazzle, who we meet her at a radical transformation in her life. and then we want to see her sort of definitely moving on an arc towards something. And I think in the middle of an arc like that, things can start to feel a little stagnant, a little like we're circling back. And I think the beginning of this season, specifically as Midge sort of rose up the ranks and is now back down at the bottom, you know, you can sort of feel like, well, you know, what are we doing here? But I think the fact that they've announced that season five will be their last.

I get really excited when we're in an intentional endgame of a series, you know, like the showrunners know that they are aiming towards something. And so they're not going to be lollygagging around. They're going to be figuring out, you know, how do exactly get to that point. And we're going to talk about Midge as a character a little later on and why her character type specifically might engender some of that sort of what are we doing here? Am I as invested as I want to be in this story? But Maisel itself is such an interesting artifact on the TV landscape because it was this huge hit for Amazon. And Amazon, you know, as they were trying to get their feet under them with their original programming, this was like a big Emmys contender for them, won a bunch of Emmys for Rachel Brosnahan, for Tony Shalub, for Alex Borstein, for your guy, Luke Kirby, who plays Lenny Bruce. You know, so there were a couple years there where Maisel was just sort of, you know, cleaning up at the Emmys. And then, yeah, I think I think public sentiment has waned a little bit. And I think also the two-year gap between seasons, you know, obviously COVID is a factor. But I think for a lot of shows that are premiering now, even Euphoria was just wrapped up. It's usually popular.

But like when there's a long gap, you're sort of like, what happened? Or Ozark is one where we had to be like, what, wait, what happened? Where were we? What's going on? So I think that's all in the mix there. I want to ask you also. I mean, I know the answer. because you already told me.

But this show sits in a larger sort of Amy Sherman Palladino, Daniel Palladino, body of work. Their most famous collaboration being Gilmore Girls, obviously. But then there's the short-lived bunheads, which I actually really loved. You know, that is like sort of a cult favorite. And I think when you start, as with any TV creator, when you start lining up, especially like if you, once you have three, three trees make a road, you start to see sort of the trends and the patterns. Gilmore Girls ran for a really long time at a time when we were doing,

you know, 22 episode, 24 episode seasons. Bunheads is I think one and a half seasons, something like that, very short. And I think this Maisel might end up being sort of just right, you know, like just in, in the middle. Do you have, I think you haven't watched these other shows, but do you have a sense of, the larger sort of quirky, candy-colored world that these folks have been creating. For reasons that I can't quite explain

to myself or other people, just never watched Gilmore Girls. Even though, like, a lot of people who I know, and more importantly, trust, love it. And it's like a very important part of their lives. So I have no doubt I would enjoy it. I just kind of, I don't know, I just like missed it. It's just one of those in my life that I just missed.

Despite not having watched it, and similarly, I did not watch Bunheads, but it's like adored by many people who I value and cherish. I think people have seen Bunheads. Love Bunheads. Yeah. Yeah. So I have no doubt that I would really enjoy that. Gilmore Girls, even though it wasn't something that I watched, you know, I've seen, you sort of like, it feels like one of those shows that you just absorbed via osmosis, at least to some extent. Like, I think I have a fair working knowledge of certainly the characters, but also like beyond that, their dynamics. Who dated whom and when? You know, my stepmom discovered Gilmore Girls late and became really passionate about it and watched all of it on DVD and just loved it so much. And so I absorbed a little bit of it during that run. But yeah, I just, I don't know. They're not a part of my life, but I feel sure I'd like them.

What about you? Are you a big, are you a big Gilmore Girls like Rory Stan? I have such a complicated relationship with Gilmore Girls. And I think like Maisel, like it has three, I think really strong seasons. And then as with any show or someone's in high school, when they move to college, it gets a little tougher. And then I think also the show moves away. I think most people who watch that show and even who then watched the revival that was recently on Netflix, year in the life, I think it underscores some problems with these. central paladino heroines because there is this, you know, there's this zippy screwball comedy,

banter, banter, banter, you know, thing that she brings to all of her writing and all of her characters. Amy, Amy is like the predominant creative here. I don't want to discount Daniel, but like Amy Sherepaladino is like the driving force and all of this. And like, you know, their production company is called what Dorothy Parker sat here or something like that. you know, like that they're chasing the Algonquin roundtable, zippy, screwball comedy sort of situation. But in, at the center of all these stories, are these privileged white women who, uh, become increasingly unselfaware of they're charming.

They're so charming. And you want to spend time with them. They're so charming. But increasingly that that charm starts to wear thin. when they have complete lack of awareness of how their actions affect the world around them. And I think that's a big critique that's hanging around Maisel right now. It's not a show that. And I would say, you know, like sometimes when when people get sort of like social and political about a show and someone else says like, can we just watch the show and not talk about this?

I'm like, okay, for Gilmore girls, maybe I could I could see that if that's how you choose to ingest television. But Maisel is trying to engage with some of these social issues. Like as a period piece, it's trying to engage with racism. It's trying to engage with homophobia. And so then it is opening the door and inviting you to come and sit down and have these conversations about Midge Maisal and how she interacts with all that. How does that sit with you? Yeah, I think that you're completely right. You know, the origin story for the Midge that we're spending time with and one of the,

the central lenses the rich her story is explored, but also the central dynamics of the show, is examining the gender dynamics and society and the expectations. And inside of the family unit, too, and then how that unfurls across society from everything from the way you would conduct yourself in your private life at home, through what your opportunities would be in the workplace,

through the way other people perceive you on and on and on, right? And so because that is core and really like elemental to Midge's journey, including in this season, which, you know, in the early installment, centers on the idea of just disrupting the industry entirely, seeking to actually affect some sort of change that would facilitate much of what Midge and Susie are trying to pursue.

I think the way you put it is right, it's difficult then to cease to see the rest of the world and universe of the show. through the same lens when that's kind of central to the protagonist's mission. And I think also, I think season three ended in a way, you know, this picks up exactly where season three left off. We're in early 1960. The show started in 1959. Not that much time has passed in the world of the show itself. I think it started in 1959. We're now in 1960. And, you know, Midge has just been dumped from this tour. And it starts with her saying, like,

revenge, right? I want revenge. But when we think about the circumstances that brought her here, it was because she went on stage and quasi-outed a gay black singer in 1960. You're just like, where I wanted Midge to be at the beginning of the season was a little bit more self-reflective of what she did there. And it is very possible that she's going to get there. My concern is Rory Gilmore, who over the course of the Gilmore Girls only got less self-aware and not more.

And so that's sort of a cautionary. And I don't know if Amy Shrem—like, Gilmore Girls' hugely popular show. Mays a little hugely popular show in a show that I like. And there's a lot that I like. And basically, if this were—like, I think Alex Bornstein is incredible. And if this were like called the Marvelous Susie Meyerson, like it would be even more my favorite show. You know what I mean? So there's so much to love in this show.

And it is aesthetically beautiful. And as a huge fan of musicals myself, something that I love that Amy Schumerant Palladino does is like every scene feels like it could, everyone could burst into song at almost any moment. She's just sort of like edging musical at any given moment in all of her content. And so that's something that I personally love. But I think where we find Midge here, where she is just the aggrieved party, I don't know if the show is trying to do something with that where they are saying, look, how unselfaware she is, or if the show itself is unselfaware. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, definitely. I think that'll be interesting to track. Certainly in the, you know, this is the mid-season check-in. So over the next two weeks, we'll get the final four installments of season four. And then at that point, we're only going to have presumably eight episodes left. Eight, could be nine, could be ten. But, you know, we're in that final stretch of story, as you noted earlier. And so I think if that is intentional and there is either some sort of like additional active reckoning for Midge or Midge or other characters are really grappling with the sometimes presence of hypocrisy or the dissonance.

that's at play in Midge's life, I think that could be really compelling and interesting to watch because so much of Midge's worldview is oriented around pursuing something that she thinks she, but also women, deserve and have not been given the opportunity to get. And so we are, of course, aligned with her in that respect. And then when she basically fails to apply that same empathy and awareness to other people and this like myopic, very self-centered worldview creeps in. I think it would be great to see Midge have to confront that really actively in this final stretch as she's moving toward whatever assent is presumably to come, though maybe that's not

the story that we're watching. I would be a little surprised by that, I guess. I have a theory. I have a theory. Well, we'll get into my like theory of where this is all heading. Well, the only other thing I was going to say is that one of the interesting dynamics in the show, which again is like something I really enjoy the show. And one of the main reasons is because the interplay and the dynamics between the characters, either in a given duo like Midge and Susie or in a group dynamic like, you know,

Midge and her and her folks and their whole reconvene department saga there. Many of the characters who in another story would push Midge or challenge Midge have their own version. of that, like that completely self-absorbed view. And so that's one of the things I'm really genuinely eager to track over the remaining episodes is who else kind of emerges from their version of this kind of all-consuming cocoon so that they can kind of help each other improve and grow. And I think that the show is certainly at its best capable of imbueing the overall

comic tone and like ribald tone of the show that is so. essential to its charm and it's just vibe of pace and energy, that sensibility can remain completely intact while also pushing the characters to evolve. Like, that's ultimately what's going to make it a really interesting story in the end. Absolutely. Like, I'm not looking for this to change into a heavy drama at any given point, but I think within the world of, of, of candy-colored comedy, there is room for some of that. Let's just run really quickly through some of the beats of the story so far so that folks are oriented. So, you know, Midge moves in with their folks,

gets her apartment back. Just incredible. Unbelievable. The whole, we're going to tell people that we bought this place back for you. One of my favorite, one of my favorite developments

of the season so far. Truly hysterical, such an amazing insight into their recurring insight into their family dynamic. But the apartment is interesting too because I do think it connects to what we're saying.

It's like the apartment is a character. The family's version of New York is a character. And so what does it mean for Midge? to sort of willfully set out with intention to return to the past, to return to the familiar, to return for that thing that felt like something she wasn't ready to move beyond. Can she recraft that aspect of her former life while also moving forward in other ways? Right. The Pyrex is back on the shelf.

Like, that's literally something that happens. A lot of bruises from the rearranged bedroom furniture. My goodness. Speaking of rearranged bedroom situations, Joel is dating May Lynn. the woman that he meant last season. Running his club. His club seems to be going swimmingly. We'll talk about Mallory's personal enmity towards Joel in a bit.

Midge is determined to build her own thing. So she joins, she becomes a comic at this burlese club called the Wolford, which she sets about sort of revamping in a very, I don't know. It reminds me of Emma from Jane Austen's Emma or Cold Cup of Farm. Anyway, like these heroines who just come in and are sort of like, I can fix this kind of thing. Here we get one of our many, many guest stars of the season. The great Santino Fontana, one of my all-time favorites, shows up as Boise, the sort of clubs manager. And if he doesn't get to sing, Tony Award-winning Santino Fontana, if he doesn't get to sing, it will be a crime of nature.

How are you feeling about the Burles Club situation? No. I'm enjoying it so far. You know, it was great to see our guy Lenny pop up in episode three. I think it's a fascinating, it's a fascinating setting for Midge because it really sends to the four the things about Midge that are wonderful and that we're so drawn to and the things that you're like, oh, why do you have to do things this way? And even just the way that she's seeking to enact a lot of change very quickly kind of highlights. that because there's a lot that's admirable.

You know, the way that she, like, says you will not interact with the women in this establishment this way. You will knock on this door. You will not say, like, get your, move your ass. And all of that. But in the, and so that's all good. In this broader way, the fact that Midge always thinks she knows best and, like, always thinks that she sees a path forward that other people don't is simultaneously, it's like inherent to her nature and it's simultaneously part of why she has been able to forge this really unique path of individual pursuit and also part of why she keeps kind of making her way like off the road into the shoulder, you know, because when you're constantly telling the other people around you that they're wrong or that you know better,

listen, that's someone who often likes to say to people in my life, like you're wrong. I know better. I know for a fact that this can be very alienating for other people. This is how you wind up in the orchestra pit, Mal. You're going to fall right into the orchestra pit. Yeah, I guess so. Meanwhile, Rose is working on her matchmaking business, which might wind up being like the biggest income this family has coming, possibly.

So shout out to her. And then Abe, this is one, I mean, Tony Chaloo is like one of my all-time favorite human beings in the world. But Abe has become a theater critic. the village voice. Gilmore Girls. The instantly classic one-line review, your mother might like it. When he turned that in, I was like, I was like, that's actually kind of perfect. You know what my takeaway was?

Abe is ready for Twitter. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's got his hot takes ready to fire off. But that's a perfect damning with fate praise. Your mother might like it. What a perfect review. Chris, Chris, Iman, is playing his editor. Chris is obviously from the Witt Stillman world that also deals with the whole like zingy screwball comedy vibe.

But he also, he was on Gilmore Girls. He's a Gilmore Girls alum. He's in the Palladinoverse. The Greenwich Village, the way in which this show, which is dealt with different neighborhoods of New York in the past, is really leading into the Greenwich Village between the village voice and, you know, the Christopher Street interlude in episode four, like really leaning into the village as a character, a world to explore this season. It feels like New York has always been, you know, a character on the show and that, in that

sort of like boring way that people say it. But like the village being part of it feels like the encouragement of the 60s, you know, in a way beyond just in the gas light club, but like beyond that. Do you know what I mean? So Susie, my girl, my absolute fave is setting up Myers and Associates. She's got an office, but she also has hitman backers. I'm worried about Susie. I'm concerned.

Very worried about this. I love the entrepreneurial spirit. Yeah. You know, it's wonderful to see Susie really moving forward with her business plans, fixing the desk herself, etc. you know, a cut to the, a cut to the mob. It's, uh,

it doesn't bode well. Those guys should have like, like they could have been literally twirling mustaches that they don't have and Susie would not have noticed that they were just sort of like, we just want to cut. It's fine. But again, it's like of a piece because the character who were really drawn to and enjoy

spending time with them watching kind of keeps making like a version of the same mistake. You know, Susie coming out of gambling away, which is money. Right. And becoming it broiled in a, arson insurance scheme and everything else that happened. That she pimps her sister out to get out of.

Yeah. Like you'd think, all right, I'm going to work really hard to be aware of who and how my money is entangled in any way with the world around me. But no, not so. It's like there's a lot of space here. And once I fix that toilet, we'll be ready to roll. Worried about Susie. Her roster thus far appears to be.

Midge, Jane Lange's character, Sophie, and a magician named Alfie, who she met in the pilot, played by Broadway star getting Glick. Sophie back much to Susie's chagrin, though. Yeah, but also to my enjoyment, Sophie back in a recurring not main role in this season. I think last season, one of the wrong alleyways that last season went down was like a little too much time in the world of Sophie. with much love and respect to Jane Lynch. And then Alfie, this magician that Susie meets, who sort of hypnotizes her into a calendar briefly, and this very interesting, surreal moment that isn't really,

has not been part of the world of Mrs. Maisel. And I'm wondering if his hypnotism act, whatever it may be in the future, will allow for more of those moments. It's like if the show wants to get a little weirder, yeah, I think it could be a fun little venue for that. I have no idea. As I said, we have not seen beyond these first four episodes. I just think that could be a fun thing to do.

And then also the other aspect of Susie that is explored in the last of the four episodes that we talked about is Susie's sexuality. It's something that the show is not ever confronted head on. Midge absolutely bungles her way through this with good intentions. That's the Midge way. but we get the Christopher Street Interlude Christmas Street So 1960, we're in 1960 Midge roaming around

like yelling about gay clubs essentially in 1960 when people could still get arrested for being gay is classic Midge honestly but I don't know if this is

how much we're wanting to sort of dabble in a preview but the the Stonewall riots the Stonewall Inn is on Christmas Street. So that's like this is this is an epicenter. John Water shows up in this little like John Waters cameo

as essentially time traveling John Waters. You know, so again, the show is interested in engaging with gay culture and gay history to what end is the question that I have right now, you know? Interesting. Yeah. First of all, just seeing

John Waters is just incredible. more broadly to the to the stonewall point which is a great one so that that's 69 yeah nine nine years from now how much i want to circle back to the midsouzi the uh development in a second but that makes me wonder like how how much time especially given what you just said about how compressed the time frame has been inside of the show so far how much time do you think the show is ultimately going to cover before it concludes? Because also, if we think about

Lenny, who we'll talk about in a minute and where we're marching toward there, there's a very key event in 66, which, on the one hand, feels like the pace at which the show has moved so far, we won't make it to 66 inside of this fictional universe, but maybe things will accelerate in the end here?

What do you think? I think we might get a few more years before we go, but I don't think we're getting to 66 and I certainly don't think we're getting to 69. Like, unless there is like a finale sort of speed through things. I don't think the show, this is not a show that wants to do the Stonewall riots. I think this is a show that just wants to say, hey, we're on Christopher Street and we know what that means for gay history, you know.

But 66 is a question. So let's talk about Lenny Bruce. So Lenny Bruce, Luke Kirby, your favorite of mine. We love him. Sensation. Luke Lenny Bruce Lenny Bruce is an anomaly

in the show because though the show is a historical piece you know Kennedy's running for president like that's a real factual historical thing that's happening

in this season the other showbiz characters that we've met have all been composite characters as far as I know Soviet London Shia Baldwin etc

those are all composite characters Lenny Bruce is the only like real world famous you know person who's in in the show

my understanding is that he was only supposed to be in the first episode. But Luke Kirby was so charming and good, and his chemistry with Rachel Prasahan, his Midge was so electric that they brought him back and brought him back. He won an Emmy, and now he's a series regular. He's not just like a recurring this season.

He's a series regular. You wouldn't know it by the end. You wouldn't know it. We're four episodes in, and he's been in one episode. What's going on? One third of one episode. It's an outreach. But as you say,

the real Lenny Bruce, died from drug overdose in 66. Again, I don't know that they're going to get there or do that. But it is a shadow that's hanging over all of this. And the Paladino world has never shied away from, you know, shipping and will they, won't they? And you can, you know, any Gilmore Girls fan will sit you down and give a long, long treatise on which of Rory's boyfriends was better for her and stuff like that. Like, that's part of watching an Amy Sherman Palladino show.

So the idea that like shipping Lenny Bruce and Midge Maisel is not missing the point of the show. That's that's baked into all of this. You know, so how does that, how does that feel to you? To have like something that I know that you're really excited about that you're engaged in the show and has this sort of ominous thing hanging over it, you know? Yeah, I think because of the larger observation you just made about how many of the figures from the show are composites, it almost allows you as a viewer to like, lay yourself off the hook for thinking about some of the darker aspects of a real life and a real person's history.

I will say that while the idea of Lenny and Midge hooking up would certainly be complicated for them inside of the show, it is uncomplicated. for me as a viewer. It's something that I badly, badly want. And it's, they're already like pretty high on my personal will there, won't they,

like wish list power rankings. I just think that the chemistry that Rachel Brosnahan and Luke Kirby have is transcendent. Like you feel like your television screen is going to explode.

It's always been a joy to watch them together. I think that Braznihan has talked about this in interviews before, how I want to say that I read this in an entertainment weekly piece that was actually largely centered around Kirby talking about how the show would move toward a realer, a version of Lenny that's closer to the real version this season. And there was a line in there from Brosnahan about how the scenes between Midge and Lenny are the ones that are like allowed to operate at a different pace.

And that just really kind of clarified for me why I find their interactions so gripping. They are moving. On the one hand, there's this like rapid, fast moving wit between them when they're doing a bit or playing out some improv. But they move like with a slowness around each other. Like it feels like everything about. his life just eases when they're together.

And there's this interesting dynamic because, of course, he's like a big believer in her and a proponent of her comedy and this guide through this world not only of comedy, but of fame, right, and of all of the trappings of trying to make it in that industry. The Miami sequence in season three is one of the most gripping sequences, not only in this show, but in a long time. My favorite moment, I mean, there are a lot of moments that are great, but it's not even when they're standing at the door of his hotel. And you're like, are they going to, are they going to kiss? Are they going to sleep together? Are we as badly as you want that to happen? Are we ready for it because we don't want the tension to subside? When he opens the door of his like cabana that he's living in and the bed. And the bed is just right there.

Great framing. But the single moment that I think best encapsulates it is the swing shot in the club where we, we see them just looking at. at each other at the table. And like the ferocity of longing is just a really amazing thing. And so I do not think it would be, again, uncomplicated if inside of the story they found their way to each other. But I think it's something that viewers of the show are badly hoping for. Something that I really love is that you and I, when we decided we were going to do this, we're like, you know, we're a little busy this week.

We're not going to do a full rewatch of Maisel. Like, we don't have time to do that, unfortunately. But you and I independently chose to watch the exact same, we watched the exact same season three episode, which is Lenny and Nidge in Miami. Yeah, it's incredible. And that's only, like, I remembered that being the full episode. That's only like a third of that episode, you know, at most. Yeah, it's just the final stretch. Yeah.

And it is. It's electric. and the thing that that is so beautiful about that, which for old school lovers of Gilmore Girls, I think it's a reason when people put Milo Ventimilia's character, Jess Mariano, who we're going to talk about Milo in a second. But when they put him as the number one Rory boyfriend, it's because it's a meeting of true minds.

It's like a game-recognized game sort of thing. And the way in which they play and barb with each other, you can just see this joy on their face knowing that they can go as fast as they care or as obscure as they want to and knows that the other person is keeping face of them. It's a really beautiful, a really beautiful thing, you know? That's so well put. Like, you know the moment, again, when they're standing in the doorway with the bed, just taunting them. And Midge, who has been asking him, like, what did you think of my act throughout the night, just sort of says, like, definitively, what did you think of my act?

and the way he says, I thought it was sensational. It's so interesting because Midge is looking in a lot of other sequences for affirmation or praise or positive feedback or like a path forward from somebody who could unlock something for her. And it's like in that moment, it doesn't feel like that at all. It's like this is a person who she actually loves and respects. And for him to like see her clearly is clarifying in almost like a fundamental existential. way. And I just think that's a very special thing that they have together. And I would love to see see them have sex on this television show. And it's just, but as you say, it's like, do we want that now

or do we want this tension to continue? Yeah, I'm ready to be patient. The way they play with each other, like in that Miami episode, when he pulls her on to the show that he's doing and he's just playing with her. What's that on your hand for Austin? He's just playing with her and she's playing with him. more similarly in the episode that he shows up in Belmore, you know, when he's just like toughening her up on stage in a way that doesn't feel patronizing, it just feels supportive. He's like, I'm going to do this thing. She's loving it. She loves like the attention, the rigor, the him treating her as an equal, all that sort

of stuff. Like, you know, it's a beautiful thing. Something that I do know that happens this season, I don't think a spoiler, but Lenny Bruce did a famous set at Carnegie Hall in 1960. Yeah, in 61, right? Or 60 or 61? Something like that. And they're doing that this season.

I do know that they're doing that. The finale has like Carnegie Hall in the name, right? Is that the... It's like how to get to Carnegie Hall or something like that. Yeah, yeah. So I think the finale might be the Carnegie Hall set or something like that. I listen to some of it. It's like a very famous comedy record.

And you can just like listen to it on YouTube if you want to. And I listened to some of it. It was really like, it's really interesting. His comedy style is so interesting. Kirby has done an incredible job throughout of doing not an imitation, but like an embodiment of a really interesting person. My relationship with Lenny Bruce is interesting because I was aware of him, I think probably as a lyric for rent more than anything else for a long time. But a guy I was dating really, really loved Lenny Bruce and specifically loved the movie Lenny, starring Dustin Hoffman

as Lenny Bruce, which I really recommend. It's a really good movie. It's not, it's not this tone at all. It's a very different tone, if that's what you're looking for. But I think this, there's a great YouTube video where someone has intercut the real Lenny Bruce's appearance on the Steve Allen show with the version that they did in the show back and forth. And it's line for line. They did exactly what he did. And it is so fun to see Luke Kirby. Again, it doesn't feel like an impression. It feels like an embodiment. So all right, this is not the marvelous Lenny Bruce, But those are our thoughts and feelings. Speaking of handsome men,

Meal and Ventimilia, there's a couple of people who are going to be on this season that we haven't seen yet. Mila Ventimilia, famously of Gilmore Girls and more recently of This Is Us, is credit as handsome man. That's his credit for this season. Tremendous. I don't know if he's going to get a name eventually, but right now he is known as Handsome Man.

So I can only guess that he and Midge are going to have some sort of, but again, we only have four episodes left, so I don't know. I don't know what to tell you. Kelly Bishop, another famed Gilmore Girls alum will be showing up. We've seen photos of her in costume, but we don't, we have no idea sort of she's here for an episode. Not only Gilmore girls, she was a main character on Bunheads too. So she is like the queen of the Amy Sherman Paladino verse. I love Kelly Bishop. She plays Rory Gilmore's grandmother on the Gilmore girl. she is a titular Gilmore girl. Rachel Brousahan's real-life husband,

Jason Ralph, from The Magicians, who I love, is allegedly in this season. There's all these people, and I'm just sort of like, when? When are you showing up? There's not a lot of time left, though the show is quite nimble at incorporating people for, like, one burst, and then we never see them again,

and it somehow feels fine. Like, someone Midge goes on a date with, or somebody rose is, the parent of someone Rose is trying to matchmake for. I mean, there's so many different pathways

here to another, another angry playwright who Abe has destroyed. Who knows? What the future holds. Yeah, exactly. Because Jason Alexander is probably only in this season

for like an episode and change. That's probably the last we're going to see of him, but it's in a memorable part of the season. And then lastly, you pointed out to me,

I actually missed this, that Reed Scott, famed V-punk, Reed Scott, showed up on the TV set. My favorite dirtbag, Danny again. Yes. Our favorite DC dirtbag.

Also, a surprise, venom breakout we've got. That's right. It feels like, so we've seen him, Susie, you know, watching the tube, crashing with Midge. We've seen him, I think, who have we seen him interview?

Croucho and Hitchcock. Are those the two that we've seen so far? Yes. Yeah, yeah. It just feels like, I guess, it's possible you would cast Reid Scott only to be seen through a like 11 inch black and white television inside of our televisions, but it seems unlikely. So is, is Midge going to make her way onto that show at some point? Will she be there with Lenny or somebody else who's on the show

being interviewed? Will they strike up some sort of rapport? Will he, will he be a love interest? Will he be an adversary in some way? I feel like he. He's got to be a little more central. Not central, central, but he's got to be... You'll have been to Millie, Jason, Ralph, and Marine Scott are, like, oh, to be Midge Maisel in New York in the springtime. No kidding.

But that question about the television appearance feeds into, like, my big unified theory of where we might be going. So as soon as I saw Midge in the Burlese Club, my musical cooked brain thought of Gypsy, musical gypsy. which premiered in 1959, it's based on the memoirs of Gypsy Rose Lee, who was a burles performer comedian, author, TV personality, all his various things.

And then that's where my mind immediately went. And then I started putting together, I mean, like, it's very obvious once you dive even one inch deeper because they used a song from Gypsy Rose's turn and the promo for this season. Centino Fontana's character is named Boise. There's a character named Dallas and Gypsy. And then I didn't know this, but I found out while I was Googling around. Amy Sherbetal and Paladino is writing a revival of Gypsy, the musical. She's making a movie.

So I'm like, is this just her practicing for her Gypsy movie that she's going to make? Interesting. But I think it's interesting because, you know, Gypsy Ro's League, like, she carved out a very rare spot in a time. She started her career earlier than Midge in, like, the 30s. But she carved a very rare spot for women to be bawdy and funny and all this sort of stuff. And she found that world, like, she found that spot for herself in the burlesque world, which I think is a really interesting potential spot for Midge to do this. We've already seen, like, as much as we can sort of roll our eyes a little bit at Midge's, like, busy bodiness in the club, we've already. We've already seen it start to fill out a little bit more.

We see more women in attendance. It's not just like the female waitresses who are stopping to listen to Midge. Like there are more women in attendance with the men there over the course of, you know, an episode and a half of her trying to improve the club. Gypsy Rosley had her own TV show from 1965 to 1968. So are we headed towards the Midge Mazzal hour? Like is that, is she going to have a TV career? at the end of this.

And that's, that's where everything is going. That would be great. That's, that's brilliant. I don't know. I mean, I don't know.

I, I am famous for latching onto a breadcrumb and, and building a whole breadstower out of it. But like, not even Abe's, uh, investigative reporter colleagues that the, the voice could have pieced that together so quickly.

That's a, that feels right. And also like, on the one hand, the culmination of, something like really meaningful, but also based on the way you just outlined it, like, actually close enough to achieve in the number of episodes that we have left, which feels important, like to not make some massive, massive leap back and then forward. It feels like the pacing of all

that will be pretty central. I love it. That's great. When will she have her moment with Lenny before or after the show launches? Also, when will she, you know, I'd love for Midge to ask Susie questions about her life as a friend instead of just making assumptions. You know, as you said, the classic midge microcosm there where it's like there's some nobility of intention, but it just manifests horribly. Like, let's ask Susie about her life and about what she actually wants and not just presume. That would be great. Midge on TV.

Okay. It'll be nice for Ethan and Esther to be able to see her on TV so they remember who she is. Okay. We're going to talk about the kids in a second. And we're going to talk about Susie, but I want to read this one passage from an article that I found about, about, about, Gypsy Rosley. It says in 1931, the long-legged Burnett moved to New York and joined the Minsky

Brothers burlesque show. Her quick wit, her quick intellect and slow-paced stripping style quickly garnered a massive fan base. She tells sophisticated jokes while spending upwards of 15 minutes to remove one single glove. When crowds would lustily beg for Gypsy to remove more clothing, she famously

would tease, oh boys, I couldn't, I'd catch a cold. I mean, that just sounds like Midge to me, that like, Midge would spend 15 minutes taking off one glove And then, I mean, Gypsy would do the rest. But, like, Midge would be like, and that's it. And that's all I'm doing. You know what I mean?

Meanwhile, I've told you these jokes. So we'll see. We'll see if that's what they're doing there. You mentioned Susie and Midge. The episode, I think it's Christopher Street, where Midge goes on this terrible date, and then has Susie rescue her. And then Susie and Midge go back to the Burles Club for Movie Night and he take out Chinese together. That just underlines a strength of the Amy Sherman Palladino shows,

which is the female friendship. You know what I mean? Like Lorelai Gilmore and the character Sticky played by Melissa McCarthy on Gilmore Girls is like one of the stronger aspects of the show. Or Rory and her friendship with her best friend Lane or this girl Paris. Like these female friendships is something that I've always loved about these shows. Often the midges or the Lorela Gilmore's the world or whatever will be too wrapped up in their own world to really fully. understand. But this season has given because Susie is dealing with the grief and the loss of a friend and we're in talk, I think one of the strongest things we've seen this season is how

all of that is treated. But because that is happening, self-centered Mitch has been doing a lot of caretaking of Susie. And I think that that's something that I've loved about this season. What do you think? Yeah, it's been one of my favorite parts of the season because it's working for both for the characters on an individual level and collectively. You know, we get to see Susie, like, really interrogate how she wants to live her life and, like, what she wants to be spending her time trying to achieve. And what it means to move forward through your life without thinking about those things. And then to see Midge, who we know can be a very caring, nurturing person.

Give that to Susie, who, of course, has spent a lot of the arc of the show tending to Midge and to Midge's needs. Now, of course, to be fair, Susie has also completely fucked over, Midge, many times and gotten lost in her own self-absorbed pursuits, which is, you know, that that connects back to what we were talking about earlier, where a lot of the characters on the show are struggling through their specific version of that same self-absorption, which, like, in some ways, is human nature and in some ways is very specific to the way that the show examines human nature. But yeah, it's like lovely to see Midge invite Susie into their home and then like go check on her and sit with her as Chester's eating the eggs and, you know, be there at the funeral. Just like be one of the people who is there, right? And the sequence where they sit and have dinner and talk after was was one of my favorites as well. So I like when we get to see the bond reinforced, like the reason that these people, and like you think of a moment where like Susie is in the part. Park with Harry and he's like, just drop her. Like, just move on, just drop her. And Susie's like, I'm not going to do that. And you actually need moments like that to reinforce why, you know? It's not just because Susie sees Mitch's talent and a potential lucrative

career and client, though that's part of it. And that's that's prerogative as well, right? But it's because they have actually built something like fundamental. They have altered each other's lives. And so I like the quieter moments where the show reminds us of that. I want to get to something that you and I both really love. about this season. Before we do, I just want to like quickly kind of zip through some of my bigger assembling blocks. One is that I love the production of design on the show. It's incredible.

Sometimes it can veer into just sort of like 1960s fetishization. Mad Men could be guilty of this as well. Just sort of like I feel like almost a setup is there just so that this show can tell you we did a lot of research on what this would look like. And I would rather they do that research obviously. And it's obvious that they've spent a lot of time looking at, I mean, there's some anachronisms, but a lot of time looking into like what Coney Island would look like at this time or whatever the case may be. And like, sometimes those setups don't always serve the scene. Like, I think the sequence on the Wonder Wheel and in Coney Island, I don't know, it just kind of dragged on and felt like it didn't land the way that they, you know, that they wanted to be hilarious.

It did make me want funnel cake, but it didn't totally land. I've talked before about some of the chasing down the wrong paths, I think, for certain things, like over-emphasizing certain characters that should remain background characters, underutilizing certain characters like Lenny Bruths, who should be, main characters, we feel like. And then also that sort of like white feminism, Midge, do even really like her sort of thing. The missing children part, which was always a critique of the Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, I think at least this season, the show has a bit more of a sense of humor about it. the whole thing with the like active parody.

Yeah, the fake birthday thing. Like all of that stuff. Yeah. You can't just stage his birthday. What? Didn't work for us. Didn't work for your mother. She didn't,

you know, I don't remember why, but it didn't work for her. Yeah, it's an encouraging piece of self-awareness that I hope the show continues to engage with. But like, it's another,

it's another aspect of Midge's privilege that she can voice the kids off on someone while she's gallivanting around doing her thing. Initially that like sort of Midge is a bad mom critique is something I bristled at, because I don't know, Don Draper's a bad dad. So, like, I don't, I don't, I don't want to hold Midge to a different standard of, of care. But I like that the show is sort of actively playing with it.

Any sort of bigger, stumbling walks of the season that you want to talk about before we get to maybe our favorite thing we've seen that far? I think we covered them. Yeah, I think we had on them. Okay. So something that happened, uh, between last season and this is that, uh, Brian Tarantina, who played Bootsie on Gilmore Girls and, um, You know, was Jackie on this show, died of a drug overdose? And this happens sometimes that actors die while a show is going on and a show has to figure out how to handle it. Like, does this character move away?

Do we recast them? You know, how are we going to handle this death? I don't, I've rarely seen a show really take the moment the way that this show did with Jackie's death, how it's affected Susie, and how the eulogy. her realization of who he was that she didn't, you know, like the show didn't pretend that Jackie was Susie's best friend. So they cooked into this whole plot, this idea that like, he was such an interesting person and she was too busy doing her own thing to really notice that that's sort of adds to her grief. I just thought it was absolutely beautiful. And I, and I love the handling of all of that. What do you think?

My favorite part of the season so far. I was like so moved by this. It was really, really, really touching and profound. You know, the just complete disbelief that Susie feels when she sees that empty room and then is looking across to a room full of people celebrating somebody else's life and just taking the time, the time to remember. And again, in the signature way of the show, in this really poignant stretch, there's still this injection of like almost shocking levity. Like when what Susie is talking about, was her name Darla, the woman from the love letter,

she's like, she better be dead. It's like, you know, I'm crying and cracking up at the same time. And it's like, that is the show and it's absolute, absolute apex.

But I think a couple of the things that touched me the most in that sequence, one, again, that just realization of what it could mean to live your entire life

and have nobody feel like bothered to, to, to come think about you and to show that they cared and how absolutely like anguish-inducing that would be not only for the friends and family of that person who were thinking about, well, why are all the other people who knew Jackie,

but then what it sort of forces you to think about with your own life? Like, what does it mean to live a life that leaves no mark on other people, right? You know, not to like, go all Taiwan-Lannister, but like, that's what legacy is, right? It's like, what's left of you when you're gone? And then to juxtapose that with showing us that it wasn't that Jackie hadn't lived a life, that he had.

And it had been a full life and his own life and not one that other people knew a lot about. And maybe that was his choice to keep those things private, but maybe nobody ever bothered to ask him. And like, I thought that was devastating. Like the box full of memories and relics from this period of time in his life that Susie, who was around him constantly, knew nothing about. That was like so heartbreaking. The war medals, the dance contest ribbon, the love letters, like all of that. I just, yeah, I thought it was, it was so smart and emotionally profound to take this very side character and all of a sudden make him the most. important thing in the world. And baked into all of that is this sort of blinkered self-centeredness

that these characters have because Susie crashes someone else's memorial in order to do this. And like, I'm not mad at her for doing it. And she has that moment at the end where she acknowledges sort of like what she's done. But like, that's appalling what she does. But we're with her. And I have to think, I don't know the answer to this, but I have to think that her desire to, you know, she says something about like, you know, to make damn sure that no one else ends up, like, in my shitty apartment, like this sort of thing. I think that's why she pulls the magician out of the bar. You know what I mean?

Like, yeah, she's looking for clientele or whatever. But, like, I think, you know, she sees someone who's a lost boy as well. And she wants to pull him up, you know? It's an interesting dichotomy and distance inside the show as you're, as you're observing. Because to channel something about someone else into, like, purpose for yourself is meaningful and good. It is also then instantly about you and there's some irony at play there. Yeah. But if Susie can make something meaningful of that, that like, donning realization, I think that that does in a Susie specific way and in a smaller way than the show's

central focus taps back into some of what was so successful of the beginning, of the premise of the show in the first place, that moment of awakening. And like what you choose. You choose. You choose. You to do and how you choose to alter the course of your own life when something fundamentally changes about how you see the world. And so it's nice to have as tragic as the reason is. I think it's nice to have that back in the show again. I have no idea what will happen with the magician. I like what you said earlier about giving us some more of these maybe pathways to and excuses for like some sort of surrealist hyper-styled sequences. That would be cool. But I just thought this was beautiful and as is, you know, always the case with like one of Alex's show showcase

sequences, just like masterfully acted. I mean, she's so good. She's so good. She's so good. She's like riveting. So let's do a quick wrap up. What do we, what do we want for the rest? We have four more episodes. We're going to Carnegie y'all. Mila Ventimile, a handsome man is showing up. What do we want for the rest of the season? you know, it's a great question. I have a sort of weird answer. Like, I don't, I don't really know. It's one of the few shows that I watch where I don't have either like a laundry list of predictions or like really fervent, closely held desires and expectations other than the ones I've already shared with you today. I don't know if I have like an end point for midge in mind. I guess my hope is a little bit more like cheesy and saccharine, which is like, I hope we get to

laugh a lot and I hope we get to see the characters we've invested a lot of time and make some sort of progress in their lives. And I don't know exactly what that looks like for Midge or what I want it to look like. I would like her to move forward and achieve something. I think that's what I, what I want. What exactly that looks like, I don't know. You know, I want her to remain like staunch in her convictions because I think that's one of the reasons I'm compelled by her. I'd like her to do that in tandem with like learning a little bit more about other people. And having sex with bloody Bruce. Right. We haven't talked about your enemy, Joel, that much. I know you don't like Joel, I know you don't like Joel, but I think the show wants us to like Joel. I think the show wants us to be invested in his journey away from the fragile ego threatened person that he was in when we met him to hopefully someone who could stand shoulder's shoulder with Midge and be like, I've built this thing, this club for myself. I'm excited to support you and what you've built.

There's still some of those, like, weird, you know, because it's obvious that he's, I think, still carrying a torch for her that makes me not like the fact that he is telling this up. Like, I feel like he's kind of stringing this other woman along in that regard. Also, he, you know, to speak to the show's larger issue sometimes, I think he, his ignorance of what meeting his parents for her means as an Asian woman in 1960. I think that, you know, that's a frustrating. And also, as you mentioned to me, his dislike of soup is a real black mark on his character.

But I do think that if, if Midge and Lenny cannot be end game because of 1966, I think the show is doing a thing where we're going to circle back to these two people meeting each other in a place where they can be with each other as equals, you know. Okay, I'd like to recant my prior statement from mere moments ago where I said, with you on this podcast, they didn't have anything I was actively rooting for. Because after hearing you say that, I do. I'm actively rooting for that not to happen. I do not want Midge and Joel to reconcile. I think them finding some sort of understanding and, like, peace with each other and the ability to co-exist to co-parent their invisible children. absentee children, et cetera. And they're so present in each other's lives in a way that I, a child of divorce, find, you know, like actively confounding, but also, like, sort of touching and sweet. I think that working toward that continued support and, like, rooting for each other, great. I do not want them to get back together again. I really, really, really don't want that for Mitch. Midge deserves more than Joel.

All of his progress aside, Midge deserves more than Joel. If Gilmore Girls is a roadmap that we can look to, Lorelai Gilmore on that show, who's raising Rory by herself, has an amical relationship with Rory's dad, Christopher. They get back together at a certain point, and then they break up again because they're like, no, this really isn't like what we want in the end.

But we've done that already. Like, they started. They got remarried together again. Yeah. And like did the whole thing again. And now they're good. Right. So maybe we've already moved past the Christopher phase of all of this.

All right. Well, that's, I mean, that's Maisel. I think I want to see her Concord TV. And for Susie to thrive because she's the manager of like one of the biggest comedy stars on TV. You want Susie to become a mob capo?

When he's done? If that's what she wants, yes. But I don't want her to be safe and protected. And like for Midge to be Lucille Ball or whatever she wants to be. And that's a marvelous Mrs. Maisel. And for Midge to get some self-awareness. I think it's, I think

she's almost there and I think she could get there. And also for for Abe to be the most beloved theater critic in all of a village voice history. I love this career change for him. It makes me really happy. Tony Shaloo, king of my heart. Okay. Okay. Last and not least, because you already, I put this in the notes and then you don't let me know that maybe this isn't a good question to ask you. I'm going to ask you just in case. Like, how do you feel about the way? way in which Jewish culture is represented on this show and is it something that you respond to on the show. Oh, yeah. I mean, I, as a Jewish person, really enjoy that aspect of it. I am not a religious person, but I always enjoy seeing the social elements of Judaism and Jewish culture

explored. And boy, yeah, there are certainly, when my husband and I watch the show, There are a lot of moments where we're like, yeah, this reminds me of, you know, an aunt or a grandparent or something like that. In general, yes, it's certainly one of the elements that I enjoy about the show. Abe getting real-time canceled at a bar mitzvah is a bar mitzvah sequence was pretty special. It was pretty great. I enjoyed that. Love the way that Moish was prepared to go to the Bima and for not. All for not. All right. So that is our mid-season checking with Marvelous Mrs. Maisel. I think we'll.

probably back from the finale, but we'll see what happens. And until we meet again at a bar or bat mitzvah near you, Mallory Room, where can folks find you? You can find me with you over on the ringerverse, recording House of Arr. Where can they find you, Joanna? It's not a bat bat mitzvah. It's a batman. That's not a good joke because they don't sound the same.

Yeah, you can find me here in the Presti's TV podcast. He's talking about various shows over in the ringerverse. I'm filling in for Amanda who's out on leave on the big pick now and again. So I'm around talking about bats and other things. Shout out to freshly minted senior producer Steve Allman for his work on the show. Woo! And we will see you. Bye.

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