The Prestige TV Podcast - 'The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel' Season 4 Wrap-Up

Episode Date: March 15, 2022

Joanna Robinson is joined by Mallory Rubin to share what worked and what didn’t in the latest season of ‘The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel.' They discuss the joy that Susie Myerson and Associates brings them and dive deep into Midge and Lenny’s relationship. Finally, they look ahead to the fifth and final season and explain the real-world events that could be awaiting the characters. Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Associate Producer: Mike Wargon Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Your racing thoughts and restless nights won't stand a chance. Find Ollie Sleep Solutions for the whole family at ollie.com. That's OLLLY.com. And welcome back into the Ringer Prestige TV podcast feed and into the Blue Room at the Carnegie Hall. I'm Joanna Robinson,

and you asked for it. You Got It. Joining me is Mallory Rubin. here to talk about the back half of the marvelous Mrs. Maisel, but really, mostly the finale of the Marvelous Mrs. Maisel. Mallory Rubin, how are you? Joanna, I will be laughing through the entire thing. Maybe just at the end. Quick programming reminders for you here on the PrestiCTV podcast feed.

We got a lot going on. As always, there's been some great cover. of winning time from Bill at all that you guys might want to check out. I know that Julia Libman and Jody Walker are gearing up to cover Bridgeton, new season coming, new Viscounts, new Dukes, something like that's happening over in Bridgetton. So keep your eye out for that. And Jody and I will be back to cover a little bit more of the dropout episodes four and five in this feed. So, you know, I think that covers the full gamut of what you could want from television.

Got a little basketball, got a little courtship, got a little scandal. So here we are. Mallory and I are going to be covering Marvelous Mrs. Maisel season four episodes five to right. So spoiler warning all the way through to the end of season four of Marvelous Mrs. Maisel. You've been warned. Get out if you are not caught up. We're going to, because we have a very concentrated best interest in something that happened in this episode, we're going to speed through some other elements. We just thought we would do due diligence.

If you want our bigger, deeper, broader ideas about this season, about the show in general, you can listen to our coverage of the first half of the season where we kind of got into it. I think we covered all the bases. We're here for just the facts now. I just do want to cover a couple things before we go into that blue room, though, Mallory. Yeah. Yeah. Number one, let's talk about the Wolford. Okay.

Okay. So there's a big police raid that happens, obviously, an inciting incident for what happens with Midge and Lenny afterwards. But before the raid, I just want to talk about, we know that Midge cleaned up shop backstage. We know that she got, you know, a lot of things, a lot of ducks in a row around the club. But can we talk about the insane boost in production value on the Wulford job? show. It is now like Cirque de Soleil meets like the most high-end Broadway production you've

ever seen. We get a couple glimpses of this. There's an incredible Wizard of Oz number with a girl spinning on a on a wire on a rope. And then you get this full house, multi-set, multi-room, incredible, incredible, incredible. I would pay so much money to see this number. What do you think of the boosting quality at the Wilford? Joanna, the possible, the highest praise that I can give is that it was of a piece with the production quality in Euphoria season two. You know, who's making these sets? My goodness, they need to be Broadway-bound. Incredible.

So impressive. I was a big fan of the bathtub number personally. Loved that one. But yeah, the house was, boy, you know, we got the wonderful scene where we got the full rundown of all of the improvements. at the Wulford. And then, you know, we know some of the improvements still to come.

It's not just that there's sugar there now. The sugar bowl is inbound. We've got the feminine product dispenser on the way. There will, in fact, be umbrellas in the drinks and then we hear about the new drink

that is ready to debut. It's wonderful. It's spectacular. So the raid, it's a setback, you know? It's a setback, but it's the product of success. It's a product of all the people

who are swarming to see, to see not only those new sets and that new onstage splendor, but our gal Midge in all her glory. I gotta say, like, I don't know. We'll talk about how we're supposed to feel about the Welford by the end of this episode, but like I think this is a really, really cool thing that Midge is building for herself. Technically illegal? Sure, as we see in the great raid sequence.

A fantastic sequence, I thought. And but I just, I love that Midge is not only like built this. club, built up the other women working there, drawn in this huge female audience. I just think that that's a really cool concept. Whether or not at the end of the day, that's going to be where Midge stays, we'll see. It seems like maybe not. But shout out to all the women of the Wulford and especially those who were trying to hold down the fort when Midge didn't show up and do some comedy themselves.

She gave them the jokes. She tried. That was so funny. And it gave way to that quite. moving and touching and inspiring set from Midge, not only about Moish, but about women and about society at large. I thought the, I'll just say,

like, I thought the finale was really strong. Obviously, in certain respects, I was incredibly fond of it and had anticipated it for quite some time, but just broadly, even outside of Lenny and Midge, the finale was the highlight of the season. I think the back half of the season

was stronger than the first half overall, and the finale, was not perfect, certainly, but brought to the four a lot of what still works really well about the show and about the characters. We're going to get to maybe what I think is the tightest aspect of the season and of the finale in a bit. And it's not even Lenny Bruce. But let's go to the Weissman-Mazel family really quickly. You mentioned Moish. Moish obviously goes into the hospital.

Joel has gotten his girlfriend pregnant. He assumes they're going to get married. She seems maybe not inclined to do so. Midge accidentally on purpose has her mobster pals investigate May, and they find out that the heat is too hot on May and her family. Not even the mob wants to touch what's going out with May and the organized crime in her family. Rose is going to war with the matchmakers. That's a sort of seems like a big setup for season two.

And then Abe's storyline, for no reason that I can understand, is all over the dang place every single episode. It feels like he's being led by the nose somewhere else. But at least Imogen is there through all of it because I really love their dynamic. How do you feel about everything going on with the family drama here at the end of the season, Mallory? Oh, boy.

Well, just because you just mentioned Imogene, I got to say, Real highlight of the conclusion of the season was the BJ. What's a BJ moment from, uh, from Imogene. So earnestly. So, uh, tough insight into, uh, what, uh, what Archie is experiencing at home. Very, very tough stuff for a guy there. Uh, I, Abe, you know, you're right. The, the, the, the, the, the, the storyline is, uh,

evolving rapidly in real time. I just cherish every moment with Abe to the point where I lose a little bit my ability to analyze where he is in his arc because I just have so consistently captivated by the performance.

The body of Christ's communion sequence was some vintage Abe Jewish humor, but what I really loved about where Abe's arc started to move at the very end of the season

was actually not the sequences that he shared with Rose or Midge that there was some nice stuff there to parse too but the sequences that he shared with Shirley and Moish like I thought that the I mean the Abe Moish moment where Abe was reading

rushing through and then sharing with real real heart and feeling the obituary that he had written, I was in tears. It was such a touching, lovely moment. And that was one of the moments where, even outside of just the emotion of that sequence, I thought, okay, we still have an arc for Abe?

Because part of Abe's evolution is interrogating, like, the bias that he has toward other people and the kind of rigidity with which he views the relationships in his own life, right? And so acknowledging that these are actually people that he has real, like, depth of feeling for, I thought was kind of almost like amazing progress for him. Like one of the bigger leaps as quiet as it was

that any character in this family took this season. And that scene was the most moving, but the earlier sequence in the apartment with Ava and Shirley was so touching too. And that really had the quality of a play, you know, the way that they're positioned, the way that the living room is filmed. But these characters who are often kind of budding heads, often at odds,

they are aligned and united through this family unit, but in many ways throughout the series have been, like, cast as foils, people who see the world differently who want to conduct their lives differently. And this moment where it just boils down, too, like, I will be there to help if you need it. It was just so moving. I just really loved it. I think that, I mean, Tony Shalib is so strong.

But I think also giving an actress like Carolyn Aaron who plays Shirley, who is so often comic relief and almost everything she does because she has that incredible voice, right? That incredible rasp. So to give her that much emotion and pathos to play, I thought was really incredible. And what it does is it connects kind of beautifully to Midge's concern around Joel and May because Midge is like, okay, now May is going to be forever a part of my family. So I need to figure this out. you know, in the way that like Abe and Rose are forever connected to Shirley and Moist, despite the divorce between Joel and Midge because they share grandchildren. Right.

Midge is correct in that, you know, if Joel has a kid with May, like they are forever sort of connected and intertwined. And so, you know, that sense of that strong sense of family that she has that Joel is not considering and May is sort of flummoxed by, especially because, you know, it seems unclear, you know, A, whether May wants to keep this kid because she's got, you know, her own education that she's interested in, and certainly whether or not she wants to be tied to forever to Joel if she wants to marry him. So, but you can understand Midge and all of that. And something I really loved.

I think Susie calls Midge out, I believe it is when, you know, Midge is like, oh, I got to go see Moist and all this stuff like that. And Susie says, this guy is definitely not your father-in-law anymore, right? Go take her this guy who's definitely not your father-in-law. And Midge watching whatever happens with Joel and May, Midge watching them in the hallway really feels like a sign to her to move forward and beyond Joel, a step I'm sure that you want her to take.

I'm sure you're eager for her to take. But she's just sort of like, okay, there's that going on. And it's not about me. This larger question of family maybe is about her, but like this, that duo, what they decide to do with their life, decisions they're going to make. It's not about her. And I think I think we quietly see her understand that, which is progress for Midge. Yeah. Yeah. It's a good point because I, you know, I bumped on the way Midge navigated the conversation with May in particular. I think I agree that

overall, like the way that Midge would be assessing the dynamic, how this will all play out in the future is. and sound and actually important because they will be this entwined family unit. I am a child of divorce, as you know, and so seeing like a conversation about, well, when the kids are with you, this is what I will want. This is what I will not want.

I liked that. And I was glad that we got that conversation. And I think understanding the way that Midge and Joel and that larger family unit will remain connected even as they both move forward independent of each other. is important and great. The specific, like, moment where Mitch was like, you know, because you'll be married, won't you?

Yeah. felt to me, like, one of those frustrating mid-Midg moments where, like we talked about in the mid-season pod where we want as viewers and as people who are ultimately invested in Midge's journey and are rooting for Midge and want her to succeed, we want to be able to, like, hit pause, by the way. Shouts to Abe for inventing TiVo in season four of Marvelous Mrs. Maisel incredible stuff from Abe. We should be able to pause and you should be able to record the audio and the video and rewind. It's just amazing stuff.

But you want to be able to like pause and say, Midge, think about what you're saying. And think about how you would grab that on to the way that you want to live your own life. And the fury, the righteous and righteous and. write theory with which you meet other people's assertions about how you should live your own life. And so why would you bring that to anybody else? Like if May does not want to get married just because she's pregnant, then there shouldn't be an expectation that she should. And obviously I understand that the show was set in the 60s and there are certain, you know,

norms in society at that point. I get that. But I just still am eager for Midge heading into what is now the final season of this show, Season 5 will be the final season of the show. I don't know if it'll be eight episodes 9, 10, but we're down to just several hours here. I want her to be able to take the worldview that she is applying to her own career

and her own life and her own well-earned and well-intentioned independence and give that same gift to everybody around her. I completely agree. That is our fondest hope for Midge. As I expressed in the last pot of we did, I am unoptimistic based on other Amy Sherman Pelley. you know, heroines, but we shall see.

The part of the show that I actually think works the best outside of, like, the bright bursts of a few scenes with Lenny, which we'll talk about, is everything happening at Susie Myers and Associates? I get, I have such fun every time I go into that office, the addition of Diana, played by Alfie Fuller, her assistant. So fabulous. And also incredibly Nicky and Frank, played by John Skirdi. and Eric Palladino, no relation,

sort of moving into the office, setting up shop, taking a vested financial interest and everything. Making sauce. Making sauce. Exactly. Making sauce. Brandishing pistols in hallways. I mean, comedy mobsters is honestly something

that this show really needed. And like something that we talked about in the first half of the season was how we were a little worried that Susie had introduced an organized crime element into her business proceedings. We're like, how can this go well?

We're a little worried. But watching how it played out with Nikki and Frank in the last couple episodes where they're taking a very vested interest in midges, like that mid should open for Tony Bennett, etc. I realize that what Amy Sherman Palladino is doing, she's always doing in this show, is she's doing a musical reference, which is in the stage play and film Kiss Me Kate about a Shakespeare theatrical troupe. There's a pair of comedy mobsters who get involved and have a vested interest and are sort of like forcing actors to do things because of debts owed, et cetera.

And they have this great song called Brush Up Your Shakespeare. Incredible comedy song. I think these are just going to be comedy mobsters if I'm being on. Like I thought this is something we should be really kind of scared of, but I don't think that's where the show is going. I think we're just going to have, I hope. So we're just going to have comedy monsters. And I hope that Nikki and Frank are in like every episode of the final season. I loved them so much.

How do you feel? They're such a delight. They, the show is not lacking on levity and comedy, obviously. But they have this just wonderful rhythm and rapport with everybody they share a scene with. And like seeing Dinah's extended family come in and then the great moment with like the And you realize just sort of with the rhythm of their lives together have very quickly become. And then like, you know, you get a little bit of that Irishman energy in there with the, he paints houses for a slide, which was wonderful. Uh-huh.

Uh-huh. I thought he was a plumber. But, you know, the moment of actually, there are a few moments where they actually like exert their force with the phone line guy, for example, you know, shutting the door, don't come in. But again, to bring it back to Midge for a second, I liked that moment of conflict where this came to a head between Midge and Susie because Midge feels compelled to bring this to Susie's attention. Midge, of course, who has just used these resources for her own ends, right? The eye firm, yeah, exactly.

Sussing things out with May. And now it's like this compulsion to spell things out for Susie. in case she has completely missed this very obvious new reality that is unfolding all around her. One of the lines that made me laugh so hard this season was when Susie explained that, you know, they got this place where they helped me with the furniture and bitch is pushing her like, why, why? And Susie says like, you know, it's not obvious to the eye, Miriam. It's a lot of space to fill. It's so funny.

I just love their dynamic. But I really liked, and it's not a rare thing. in either direction for Susie and Midge to push each other or push back against each other. That's part of what makes their relationship so endlessly compelling. But Susie just completely hand-waved her. It was like, I don't need this from you. Like, I see this. Now, has Susie made mistakes before?

Has Susie miscalculated? She has. That's also part of why we're invested in her as a character, right? Because she does tend to misjudge and she's on the brink of something that feels special here. And will this relationship with Vicky and Frank be what undone? her. We don't know. I like the fact that Susie, though, has gotten to a place where while the relationship with Midge, professionally and personally, is central and will be no matter what, she has so many other things going on that she isn't actually just going to pause and completely rework everything

because Midge told her to. I love that. I love unhooking Susie's plot from Midge this thoroughly. Alex Borsstein, like, could, I said this last time that I feel like if the show were, centered on Susie, I would not only have no problem with it, I would be delighted by it. I think that character is worthy of her own show in her own universe spinning around her. I feel like Amy Sherman

Palladino, who, as we talked about before, loves this sort of screwball comedy pattern that's like where she lives. And I think where she wants to be at all times is like in a film, like His Girl Friday, which is a newsroom screwball comedy.

She injected newsroom stuff into Gilmore girls, like with Rory working in various school newspapers. And so she gave it that sort of like his Girl Friday zinginess in college and high school, all of that. And I feel like when the camera is spinning around Susie's office and there's bits going on with phones and phone lines and mobsers. And Susie can't get up because she's not wearing pants, you know, all that stuff. And there's like this new comedian played by Jay Will James, you know, and he's interacting

with Gideon's character. Like all of that stuff that's roiling around Susie is so exciting in a way. It doesn't feel non-directional because Susie's working directly towards something, even though there are various pieces in it. The way that, you know, you and I, before we started recording, last night we're talking about a bunch of like dropped plot threads that we're just like we don't really understand what's getting picked up and dropped off like a giant bag of money this season. So, but Susie just feels purposeful and concentrated and clear. And when I find myself, I went back through and looked at the runtimes of the episodes over the series because it felt like these episodes were just way longer than they needed to be, that there was just a bunch of extra stuff in these episodes that if they strip

some of it out, you could have like a concentrated great show. What's true is that the runtime for the season is always dancing around the 60 minute mark thereabouts, 50, 60 minutes. It's not much longer than any of the other seasons. It's only a couple minutes. It's only grown a couple minutes, I would say, than the episodes, the other seasons. But they just feel long, I think, because some of these other plots feel so aimless. But I never feel that when I'm with Susie, and she always has my complete attention.

So I just want to shout that out. Anything else you want to say about Susie, Meyerson and Associates? Just that I agree. And she's the best. and I am so interested to see where Susie is as a person, as a manager, as a business person in season five. The broadening cast of characters in the Meyerson and Associates Office, I agree with you, has just like breathed a lot of like lived in energy and life into not only her storyline, but the show at large. I think balance is going to be a trick in season five because on the one hand,

I am super interested in Susie and agree with you. I want to spend as much time with her as possible. I do genuinely want to better understand how a person could decide to get completely dressed on the top first before putting on underwear. One of the most deranged things that I've ever learned about a fictional character. Like, I want to better understand the person

about whom that is true. I don't know in season five like how much patience I will have for long stretches of like the magic shows, for example. Like, okay, that I agree with. I didn't need that. Like, that scene was funny. It was amusing to see Rose hypnotized and do Midge's whole act. It was certainly that like, you know, the show just excels with like the secondhand embarrassment, right?

And the absolute mortification where you see the characters on the screen sinking into their chair. and hiding their faces in their hands and you're doing that at home on your couch because it's just like so palpably, viscerally uncomfortable to watch what's unfolding. That stuff I love, but when we're ticking down the clock to the final hours,

I don't know that there will be like room for as much of that. And so that's one of the things with Susie's expanding arc, which ultimately is like to the show's credit and a success story, that I think will be all of those, all of those characters who are expanding in the world around her, it will be difficult to give them enough time, for their storylines to also feel fully developed without feeling like we get to the end and we're like,

wait, we didn't actually learn anything new about Rose in season five or whatever the case may be, right? How's that matchmaker war going, you know? I know, exactly. No, when I say I could spend all the time in the world with Susie, I do not mean all the time of the world with Alfie on stage at the Cherry Lane Theater. Yeah, that sequence, other than reminding me that Justine Loop was on the show, which I had forgotten of succession fame. Great to see her. Just an absolute joy now and always to see Willa.

Wonderful. Wonderful stuff. I was like, why, that's, that's a stretch of the episode where I was like, why is this episode so long? Why are we here so long? I don't, you know, I feel like, what I feel like is that Amy Schumer and Palladino saw Gideon Gideon on Broadway. I was like, I'm going to feature this guy and everyone's going to be as delighted as I was in the theater to see him. And I'm like, I don't know.

I don't know that I feel the same way. All right, let's get to why we're really here. Okay, speaking of being mesmerized and delighted, obviously when people were clamoring for us to do a second episode. Let me just paint a picture for you on Friday. I wake up to tweets. Yeah. I was traveling Friday, so I was not able to sit down and watch the episode.

I woke up to tweets from people so excited to hear what we thought, which pretty much spelled out for me exactly what was going to happen. Like, I was pretty sure I knew what was going to happen. And then I already knew. I'm not mad about it, but I already knew. And then later I get these texts from Mallory that just go like, dude. And I'm like, no, no, no, I haven't seen it yet. She's like, no, dude.

Dude could mean anything. Dude could mean anything. Joel's talking about soup again, you know? Whoever. Infuriating scenes with Joel and his soup dicks. Who knows what dude means. But we know, of course. I knew you had seen the tweets, Joe.

As you know, I just, I knew you had see the tweets. And I had the same response. Once I saw the tweets, I was like, this can only mean one thing. But I wasn't mad about it. I wasn't mad about it. So I was in a hotel, and I made the person staying in the hotel room with me, didn't make. But go take a bath so that I could watch what happened for myself. Anyway, we get the fight.

Before the finale, we get the fight at Midge's house between Lenny and Midge, which I think is a really interesting scene. Just a way in which he's not ready for all sides of Midge, I suppose. Um, or, yes, and a reminder that she doesn't know all sides of him. Like these people actually don't know each other, which is a fascinating thing to, to assess at that moment and time where you feel pretty certain that you're moving toward what we ultimately get in the finale. Like she doesn't know and he has never shared with her that he has a child, for example. And he very clearly, as he states, does not want to see her in, it, it feels absurd almost

to say like this setting because what is that setting? It's her life. You know, they have this, this existence with each other as comics and in the creatures of the night. Exactly. And, you know, I think there was a part of that scene where, you know, we talked about this in our mid-season pod. We know the real history with Lenny.

We know that he will, that he, not too many years in the future this season of the 760. And it's 66, Lenny Bruce died of a drug overdose. And we know that we are moving toward that. We get the bag. in the finale that Midge finds. But even in this sequence, you hear Rose say like alcohol poisoning, but Midge finds Lenny passed out in the street

and just knowing, bringing to the show what we know from real world history, it's the first moment where we're like, okay, we're moving towards something like really dark here that we have not been exposed to and neither has Midge. And making good on the, I mean, making good is a weird way to put it, but on Luke Kirby's sort of promise

that we are going to start to see some of these things that troubled Lenny in his life. And I think that's really smart of the show. I think it would feel very cheap of the show to avoid that reality entirely. I think it's as much as we love the Lenny Bruce of it all and we do, I think it still is a little, I feel a slight discomfort in the fact that this is a real person injected into a fictional storyline, do you know? But that being said, I also don't know if that fight at her.

house. So, you know, stepping forward, we're going to get a little bit of the February 1961 famous Lenny Brous set at Carnegie Hall, which you can listen to yourself. It's available. And so there are real chunks of his set that they put into the finale episode. And one chunk is about Lenny talking about where he can take a girl, you know, a woman, dating women between 30 and 40 and where he can take them. Typically divorced. In the evening. At 4 a.m.

And how he doesn't want to, you know, women like that usually have kids and they live with their mothers and stuff like that. So I don't know how much of like that sequence in the previous episode was meant to lay track for that section of the set so that Midge in the audience could recognize a little bit of herself in his set. Yeah. It definitely seems like Midge is thinking about it that way and not in a like self-centered or self-obsessed way. It was sort of like sweet to see her, you know, when the camera would cut from Lenny doing his act to Midge in the audience. And to see that moment or those moments passing on her face where she's like recognizing the bits of their interaction and their history that have made, that seem like they've made their way into his material. And it's part of the way that you really feel actually how embedded in each other's lives they really are. And I think there's an interesting dissonance and tension there because on the one hand, it feels like that's something that Lenny in particular is not ready for.

right? And on another hand, it's something that is like inescapable for them because when a person has like a hold of you like that, how can you compartmentalize in that way? You couldn't really, right? This isn't severance. It's the opposite of severance. Like you can't leave your home life when you go to work. The entire. Wow. Love a severance reference. The entire heart of building those acts and exploring that comedy is pulling from life. Certainly as for for midge. You know, we don't know in the inside of the fictional. universe of the show quite as much about Lenny's process, though, we get some really interesting insights here. The other thing that I loved, though, about to go back to the sequence at Midge's apartment that I loved, and Midge, like, calls him out on this. Like, you're behaving like a child, and he's like, of course I am. I'm a comic.

It felt important to see him behave in a way that disappointed us, because we, you know, there's a moment in the, in the final scene when Lenny takes Midge and the finale out to the stage in Carnegie Hall and they have their, they have a real heated argument. He has that line about how she puts him up on a pedestal. And like, it felt like all of that was there for the audience, as much as it was for Midge. You know, we have a tendency to do that. And, you know, the way that Luke and Rachel have kind of both spoken about the dynamic between Midge and Lennie across the seasons, like they use this like term that he's this like fairy godmother, you know. And, and, And moving him out of that role is, I think, pretty crucial.

And there are a lot of ways that that manifest. But one of them is just seeing him as a person in the world, like, stripped of the trappings and the glory of seeing him on stage. Or even that kind of, like, rebellious straw of seeing him in jail in the earlier sequences. Like, I like that we got that callback from Abe because that's his, like, frame of reference and totality for who Lenny is. And that was really interesting, too. and like that the way that that manifested in their conversation on the stage at the end where you learn that like the thing that people kind of deify Lenny for is something that he actually despises and fears about his own existence. Like it just felt like we really got to like flesh out in ways both good and bad who he is inside of the show. And so I liked that. I've had it interesting, but I also think it's important.

and we're kind of, you know, jumping onto the bookends of the scene in between. But like another thing that I really found satisfying about the finale, we want and want and want and want to see this moment, right? We want to see them be together. We want to see them. Finally, finally reach this moment in their relationship. And then it's like, well, where does that? This is not just a question with Lenny and Midge. it's always a question, like in a will they or won't they?

Well, what happens after? Where does that take you after? What if you lose the tension and the dramatic thrust of that intrigue? And so then we are immediately put back into a position of doubt, of not being sure of what the standing is between them heading into season five. And I just thought that was really smart because if everything had just been like just, you know, pure joy and skipping down the street and having, an incredible amount of wonderful sex.

I mean, that would have been nice, too, but it would have been a different show. Certainly. It's the one we've been watching. It's an inert dynamic. And I think, you know, to your point about the fight in Midge's apartment and into the street, I think it's a really good demonstration of the way in which certain people, especially smart and funny people, can handle shame.

Because there's like a shit, you know, he's frustrated. He's mad that she brought him in there. But none of the reasons he's embarrassed. he states is because he's embarrassed to have been put in this vulnerable position. Because as frustrated as he might be that she puts him up on a pat-a-stool, I think also that he likes that she looks at him that way. That she was maybe he likes that she was someone who didn't know that side of him at all. And so now she knows that he's the kind of person who might be passed out on a street, you know, somewhere. And that's a different, that's a different, more vulnerable side of him.

She doesn't seem bothered by it, bothered by knowing that, but he's, bothered that she knows that. And then he's bothered to see her in this other element as well. He doesn't want to think of her as a mom or as someone's daughter. You know what I mean? He wants to just think of them as, you know, soulmates in the night sort of thing. All right. So let's talk about this. And you make a really great point. I completely agree to to move past the consummation of a will they won't they, which is always, you know, everyone goes back to like moonlighting is sort of one of the greatest TV examples of this. That's a, sort of dusty 80s reference if you're if you're younger than I am but you know through cheers

through Ross and Rachel through et cetera et cetera there's always this fear that if you if you consummate a will they won't they then the exciting thrilling driving tension of your show is sucked out of the room and so to put them to follow up this night that they spent together and we'll get to that in a second but to follow that up with two things number one her finding the bag and his bathroom and him just saying that's not for you. And that definitely not being done. Him just rolling through that, but that definitely not being done because she brings it up again, right? And his response to this so fervently like, don't pity me.

Right. Don't try to fix me. And don't make this about me. You know what I mean? Or this isn't about that, right? So like, just in deep denial about whatever that means or whatever that is to him. And then not showing us, you know, he's like, and I'm going to take you to Chinese food. I mean, we're going to go bail some people out.

Then I'm going to take you to have some terrible Chinese food. And I'm sure that they did all that. We don't even see them say goodbye. We don't even see, we don't see her stressing about not talking to him for a couple days. Like, there's no. And another thing that they did, I thought that was really smart to set it up. The sequence with Milo Ventimilia as like handsome man in a montage is kind of baffling. However, it at least puts Midge in a position where she's had sex with so much.

since Benjamin, who she was, like, thinking of marrying. So at least puts Midge in a position where she's someone who's out there, at least with one other person, having sex. You know, because we know that Lenny is having sex with everyone all the time. We know that backstage at the Wolford, every single girl seems to be someone he has had sex with, right? He does say in his set that he's not that promiscuous. So who knows. But yes, every single one of them did have that. his response to that, but he's like, I know that from Hebrew school.

Amazing. Killed me. I'm telling me. But I think putting Midge in a position where she's not like as in danger of being overly emotionally invested in this, you know, disproportionately to where he might be, though I do think they're both very emotionally invested in this. Do you know, I just, I like that she's on a slightly more even playing field because of that. I can't imagine any other reason for that sequence to exist because it is a truly baffling one. But I think it puts them on slightly more even playing field.

Let's talk about this seduction. All right. Love a this is a classic romance novel trope. Inclement weather has stranded our lovers, one bed, one room, one bed. Classic, classic, classic setup. First, the raid. Then the snowstorm. One of our listeners, the world conspiring to put them here, one of our listeners on Twitter gave me the Fleabag comp.

And so I put it in our notes here, but I think it's so smart because in the penultimate episode of Fleabag, when those, that incredible, well, they won't they, consummation happens, there is this tense sequence leading up to it where you like, you know, Phoebe Waller Bridge, to the camera, she goes, we're totally going to have sex, right? You know, before Andrew Scott's character realized it's going to happen. So we're sitting there and we're like, I mean, we kind of thought it was going to happen the Miami episode, but we definitely know

that it's going to happen here. And so that back and forth where they know and they're looking at each other and she says, oh boy, you know, oh boy. All of that is just, you know, beautiful, beautiful buildup. up a brief cut to during where, you know, he says something funny and sweet. And then most like poignantly of all when she tries to get up later and he holds her close and says,

no. I mean, could not have possible to that moment more. All right. Tell me your thoughts and feelings about the seduction sequence. Where to begin? This was a very special episode of television that I badly wanted and really enjoyed. And we'll return to often for the rest of my days. I do feel compelled before we dive into some of the Lenny, Midge particulars to just observe that Midge taking the towel, you know, he asked he needed something absorb him.

and drying her feet before then moving her, the towel to her hair was dismaying. I do feel compelled to mention that. You can't start with your feet and then go to your hair. But anyway, you can't put a foot towel in your hair. I mean, you know, we were just outside in the elements. It's not like you're freshly out of the shower. Anyway, that's, you know, to borrow picking nits from our sister pot for the rewatchables.

To the heart of the matter here. I'm really glad you mentioned Flea Bag. has, as you know, it had been coming up in the tweets, and it's a great comp for so many reasons. There is a feeling of inevitability around this moment, just as there was with Fleabag and Hot Priest. Thanos thinks he's inevitable. Lenny and Midge really were inevitable inside of this show.

Truly, truly inevitable. As much as I didn't expect a severance reference, I really didn't expect Thanos to enter this conversation. Go ahead. And I think sometimes when you want to see something that badly and when something feels that inevitable, when you eventually get it, it can let you down. Absolutely. You know, you hear about a great restaurant and you think about the meal you're going to have there and you just build it up in your mind. And maybe it actually is Michelin Star Quality, but when you take that first bite, almost...

instinctually you can't help but say, was this what I was waiting for? Not how I felt about this, Joanna. It's not how I felt about it. They did it. They really pulled it off. I thought that this was so lovely. It had, first of all, let me just speak for a moment, if you'll allow me about Luke Kirby's ability

to look at another person across. a table or a room. You are talking to me on Zoom right now, and your background is Luke Kirby in the blue room, taking a sip of his whiskey and just eyeing Midge, and it's flustering, to be honest. Go ahead. Flustered me.

This felt like the most perfect and fitting bookend sequence to the Miami episode that you referenced and that we have spoken about before because the most... like powerfully enticing part of that was the sequence where the camera is swinging around them at the club and we see them at the table and they are just looking at each other, just looking at each other because there is so much longing and so much want in that look. And to get the bookend here in the chair across the room and that, oh boy, that you already mentioned, and it

felt so right and true to their characters because you have the comedy, I got to see the show corset. Crucially, we have what is a really essential conversation between them about what this cannot change, what they cannot risk. And we should circle back to that specifically in a moment because it is, I think, elemental to the characters and to Midges-Arc in particular. And then you get what like almost was, I don't know, like chaste. It was so, this sex scene itself was like so tender and sweet. I was sort of expecting like just clothes ripped off, throwing each other against the wall, this almost kind of like animalistic need to consummate at last.

And it was so lovely and like gentle. I just thought it was like a really smart choice. to stage it in that way to cut between those moments, as you said. We still got that very, very sexy dress removal, you know, as they're kissing. That was wonderful. Just great stuff. And again, the comedy carries over going from the, I promise I'll laugh the entire time, and I'm only going to laugh at the end. It was just, it was just great. It was wonderful. And like, you know, you mentioned Fleabag. One of my favorite moments to think back to, but also to reference from Fleabag is the absolutely iconic moment when he shows up at her place and she has just

you know been enjoying an evening with another character and says that he made her come nine times and we get that great nine times and uh you know Joe that's what it felt to find felt like to finally see this on our television screens nine times thank you Maisel let's talk about so I had seen some people when they were talking about whether or not there would be a will they won't they and i can't remember if it was our listeners or the mazel reddit that i was sort of tooling around but um this idea that if she were to have sex with lenny would that put midge in a position of being accused of sort of sleeping her way to any kind of top uh phrasing um and so i think it is very as you as you alluded to it's very crucial that we have this

exchange where she says promise that you will never ever forget that i'm very very funny and he as first and foremost, you know? And to your point about this argument that they have at Carnegie Hall, it both re-injects tension into their relationship and is a business conversation. It is back to business where he's like, where comedians, I want to see you succeed professionally, all this sort of stuff. And so it feels very much like him making good on that promise to her of to not toss her aside because he finally had his way with her or something like that, to not, you know, go quote unquote soft on her because of the change in their relationship.

But to treat her exactly the way that he would have treated her before, which I think he does. And I think all of that is so smart and so strong and makes all of this. I think just having this would be one thing, but to bookend it with that fight at Carnegie Hall. with another great another great lengthy Luke Kirby impersonation of Lenny Bruce.

I talked about it in the last podcast when he sort of beat for beat did this Steve Allen appearance. Now he's sort of beat for beat

doing this very famous comedy record and crushing it. And then following that with the onstage at Carnegie Hall, a lot of

uncharacteristically flashy camera work from Maisel. Maisel is not usually a flashy camera work show, but like during his set, there was crane operated camera movement sort of swooping around him.

And then in their fight, when it ends and he walks out, it's a oneer as he walks out. And then the camera sort of swoops back around to Midge, again, in a way that just feels flashier than your average mazel shot. And I think both of them sold that really well. I wanted to ask you about that fight. We're running longer than we meant to. And I'm not surprised because it's Lenny Briss. What are you going to do? But I want to ask you about the fight because I have two questions around it.

One is, do you Mallory think Lenny is right in this, or is Midge right? And then the follow-up to that is, do you think the show is taking aside in that argument? What a great question. I have been kind of agonizing over this and actually was in real time when watching it for the first time. like who do I agree with, who am I supposed to agree with, kind of interrogating my own organic response and then my own evolving response as I return to that sequence. I think that one of the most important moments

we got in the episode came before that, which was when Lenny says, you're more important than God. And Mitch says, you paid attention, and he says to you always. Not only because it is sweet and wonderful, though it is, but because it reminds us of something

that we talked about a lot in the mid-season episode that actually really does pull us in magnetically to this relationship. It's not just the lust. It's not just the sexual chemistry palpable, though that may be. It's that these people really see each other clearly. And it was essential in this episode of all episodes to not lose sight of that.

And for us to remember that Lenny does, genuinely respect and admire Midge as a comic and as a person. Might not be ready to see the apron, but still, as a whole person, not just as a sexual object. So that I think helps, like, consider all of the dynamics at play, but also have, and I'm just speaking from, I think myself here, I don't want to project any of this onto anybody else's read of the situation. but I think that helped me, like, maintain maybe a more charitable read of his stance. Here are a few of the things that I thought.

Not all of which necessarily makes sense together, but I think that's part of what makes it interesting. I think that they are both right and they are both wrong. I don't know who exactly the show wants us to side with. I think that's a really good question. Ultimately, we leave there with Midge. We walk through the snow. We have this hallucinogenic.

go forward moment in the snow before that morphs into the Gordon Ford marquee. I want to circle back to like the thing that you said about, you know, this concern that is on Midge's mind and would be on the audience's mind about, you know, not sleeping your way to the top. And obviously, Midge has to be thinking about what the perception would be. But I just want to say that that bums me out. And I hate that. I hate that this is a thing that women have to worry about, right? That if they sleep with somebody, it's going to be an indictment potentially in other people's eyes of their professional competence.

Like, that is just such a shame, whether we're in the 60s in comedy or another realm, right? So I think, I do believe fervently that Midge and Lenny can move forward in their relationship and that their relationship can evolve sexually romantically and that they can, can, can. and hopefully will maintain this genuine and sincere respect and admiration for each other and a desire to support each other in ways beyond whatever plays out in the blue room, right? I think that's like something that feels like really kind of central and important to me. So then you bring that to the dynamic and to everything that they were both saying. I think that Lenny, who I'm very fond of inside of this show, doesn't have like the right to tell Midge what to do and nobody has.

the right to tell Midge what to do. I think that part of what makes Midge an interesting and special character is that she has a very, very clear sense, not only of what she wants to do, but of the fact that she wants to be the one to decide what to do, right? That's like anextricable from her pursuit. I will decide. I also think it is just as true that Lenny is genuinely trying to help her. And I found it like really moving and compelling when he was sharing his own perspective and the insights about his own life and saying to her, in essence, you don't have to be embarrassed to want this. It's okay to want to succeed. And it's okay. It's not like dirty or wrong. She wants to succeed, obviously. But it's, there's no shame in doing the

things that are necessary to pursue that success. Like playing the game and operating inside of the confines of reality, you don't necessarily get to like opt out of that if you want. that. And I think that he's living in reality in that way, right? And it's something like it's hard for us to grok what the right decision is and I'm not sure we'll even see it until we see

where everything goes from Midge in season five because there's a part of us instinctually that wants to say when a hero is like, everyone's telling me no, but I feel like this is the thing that I need to do. I think instinctually to us as observers of story we're like, well, the hero's probably

right because they're probably supposed to be with the hero. But actually, oftentimes, like, you know, someone can be wrong and something like that. Someone might still have a lesson yet to learn. And so when Susie and the mobsters and Lenny are all telling her, you're giving up Tony Bennett at the Copa. And when we, even in the year 2022, have enough cultural knowledge to know Tony Bennett at the Copa is not like some big sacrifice. That's the brass ring in a certain regard. And especially because. Tony Bennett at the Copa, as far as we know, comes with no strings attached

about what she can and cannot say. It's not like she has to comp, she's like, I don't want to open for anyone. Okay, that's a great, that's a great stance to take. But the reason she doesn't want to open for anyone is she wants to be in control of what she says she wants to be herself. Is Tony Bennett at the Copa asking her to be anyone other than herself?

We have not seen that at all. It's perhaps the reason why that baffling Jackie Kennedy luncheon is there. Otherwise, I do not know why that that sequence is there. But like what moral compromise is she being asked to make? That's exactly. To open for Tony Bennett the Copa, none that we are aware of. And so it's hard for us to be with Midge on this.

However, I would like for Midge to be right in the end because I would like to follow a hero who is not like ignoring all the people who are telling her no because she believes that she is right and for her to be right in the end. I think that is an emotionally rewarding story to be following. Yeah. The where this all ends, her and the snow, a bizarre, I think, parade of, it's again, it's one of those sequences again where I'm like, this feels like Maisel just trying to show off production design-wise, because we have her walking past, you know, like an Elvis Presley

sign, a Ben Hurr sign, a Butterfield 8 sign. We get people celebrating the Kennedy victory. Are we in November 1960? Because that's when Butterfield 8 and the Kennedy victory was, are we in February, 1961? That's when the Lenny Brous set was. I don't know quite the answer to that. But it just feels like production is like, did this have to be a blizzard sequence? Maybe.

Okay. Then we get the billboard. And are we saying, are we going back to sort of my earlier theory of the season that like the future for Midge is in television, that she wants to see herself up on that billboard? And that's what she wants to do. But all of that, I just don't see Tony Bennett at the Copa being like a step off that path. I see that is only a step forward for her. So it's hard for me to know I want to be with Midge. That's what I want.

But I don't know, you know. It's, God, it's such a good point, Joe, about our instinct to side with the hero. Because especially, I think, in the Maisel universe, we have a lot of supporting evidence that that's been the right decision and that the people who are trying to tell Midge what to do. do. Even people who are very close to her and even people who love her and would theoretically have her best interested heart don't actually guide her in the right direction. We need, we need look no further than Rose this very season, her own mother who is saying to her, stop following your dream and doing the thing that makes you happy because it is putting me at risk. It is an embarrassment to me. And my pursuit is a matchmaker, right? So I think that

the contrasting point to that is the one you're on. made, which was when the roster of people who we trust starts to grow, Lenny, Susie, etc., all saying the same thing to Midge, and you sort of balance that out. But I think it's ultimately what you just said, which is we can root for Midge and want Midge to be right and hope that she is, while also wanting her to, like, allow a little bit more room for nuance in her approach, because it's this rigidity. It's this fixed approach to inflexible, like the fear that has set in from the moments where she has taken a step in a different direction and been hurt and let down and disappointed. And there's that exchange about like, so I should just keep getting fired. And Lundy's

like, yes, you know? And you work and you work and you work, right? And nobody is telling Midge that she has to fundamentally compromise the thing that she wants to do. That's the thing. Nobody who is a part of this exact exchange is actually asking that of her. But we don't. We don't, don't want Midge to like it's the, it's the old, you know, don't, don't cut off your nose just by your face. Like, don't get in your own way here and inhibit your own success. And as, you know, as we heard in this exchange, it's like that window is small. And we don't want Midge to miss it. Nobody who cares about Midge wants her to miss it. And she doesn't want to miss it. And so, how can she find that balance and embrace internally for herself that balance between trusting,

trusting in the wisdom of the people around her who do, who not only have experience from their own lives, but who know her and care, deeply, deeply care about her, while also, like, following her own North Star, because that has been at the heart of what has allowed her to do all of this in the first place. She was the one who had to decide in the first place to get up there and to start telling jokes. And so she can't let go with that, but I think what we both feel is that she doesn't have to. And she's also made so many missteps, do you know, over the course of the series. along with triumphs, which is a human great path to be following.

But I think that, again, I have to go back to the Gilmore Girls analogy. And I apologize because that's leaving you out of the conversation for a second. But, like, Rory Gilmore makes this decision midway through the series to drop out of Yale. And she is convinced that it is the right thing to do. And everyone in her life, from her mother to, like, you know, everyone is like, this is a truly bonkers thing that you have done. why are you doing this? And she's like, no, this is the right thing to do, of course.

But what's true is that Rory is hiding from injury and failure, licking her wounds, the same way that, like, you know, Lenny accuses Midge of doing, that she's hiding at the Wolford because she is licking her wounds for what happens with Shy Baldwin. And she's created this comfortable space for her, this, like, female-centric, cozy pink environment for herself at the Welford to, like, ensconce herself and there's nothing there's nothing to say that that can't be a place in and of itself to succeed but i do have to think about rory gilmore because guess what eventually rory gilmore went back to yale eventually she realized that was the wrong thing to do eventually

unfortunately a man played by milo ventimilia jess mariano was the one to tell rory gilmore to go back to yale and so when we see lennie bruce being like what are you doing i i i can't help but think about rory and so i just i'm like go open for you Tony Bennett at the Copeland, like, what are you doing? And take your money and take your notoriety and then do what you want to do from there. Like, that's, I, you know, Tony Bennett was like no dirty jokes at all or something like that. Or, you know, you have to say something you completely disagree with. That's a different decision. But otherwise, I don't know. So season five will tell us. We don't know if this is the right choice. And maybe that's a more interesting place to put us that we don't know

what the right choice is. But I do want to shout out, and you've already said it in a number of beautiful, articulate ways, but I just want to once again praise Amy Sherman Palladino and Daniel Palladino for all the like misups and

confusing elements of this season to give us a sequence where Luke Kirby as Lenny Bruce says emotionally, if you do this, it will break my heart and make it about her career and not about their romance or sexual relationship is brilliant. And I,

Bravo for doing that, you know. Very satisfying to watch. Bravo. So, yeah, anything else you want to say about this season, about Luke Kirby, about Lenny Bruce, et cetera, et cetera. Just that I am really excited for season five. I feel like there's a lot of story left to tell. I'm concerned about Lenny, certainly, given the,

given the drug use. And I'm wondering, as we talked about in our mid-season pod, how quickly we will move through time here. Like, it's possible to me that the first sequence of season five could be Midge, walking through the doors of the Gordon Ford Show studio and saying, Susie told me that you couldn't come see me, so I'm here and you can see me here. In a scene with her own real-life husband, right?

Jason, Ralph, where are you? I'm back. And that that will lead to what, you know, that we'll just pick up exactly where we left off. It's also, you know, as we did this season, right? We picked up exactly where we left off at the end of last season. And I could also see, like, real time passing. There were some moments this season where we built towards something that we then never saw.

I think the Shirley May meeting being maybe the best example where it's like, wait, we built up so much to this moment. And then we cut away and we don't see it. And the next time we see it, they're just playing mahjong together, which is interesting in its own way to kind of pick up in real time and realize that Bay has been at the hospital with them. we never actually saw an honest exchange about what the dynamic is because it didn't happen, right, which we learn over time. But what will we miss and what will we see? You know, there's not a lot of runway left. So I am actually really, I think I'm back into being really invested at the end of this season, much more so than I was coming out of season three and where this all and where this all nets out. And I'm rooting for Midge. I'm rooting for Lennie and Midge,

though obviously we know that in any number of respects, heartache probably awaits there. And as always, I really, really, really, really do not care about Joel. Above all else, remember, that only does care about Joel. You sit down and instead of saying thank you for the pancakes, you complain about them being cold. You're a fucking asshole. And then the eggs come here, like these are also cold. Joel. I want to like you. Yeah. One last thing I want to say before we go is sort of looking, we talked about this a little bit in our previous podcast, but looking at sort of the legacy of Maisel and how it's sort of fallen out of the main conversation. I don't know what the ratings are because this is a streaming show. I don't know how to really judge how many people are watching it and how many people aren't. But the lack of sort of interviews and postmortems and.

and article coverage around this big momentous finale is really telling, like, Amy Schumer-Pel and Dito didn't give interviews, Rachel Brazzanhan didn't give interviews, Luke Kirby didn't give interviews yet that I've been able to find and I looked. So, you know, because I wanted to see what they thought about making this decision to cross this boundary with these two characters. A decision they said they weren't going to make in previous seasons. So I wanted to hear from them to say, and this is why we changed our mind and decided to do it here. Like, I'm curious to know. I'm not complaining about it. I'm curious to know about it, you know. And also, I won't call them out, but I heard from two of our colleagues who are known for having their fingers on the pulse of television who are like, based on our tweets, we're like, oh, do I have to catch up with marvelous Mrs. Maisel because of Luke Kirby and Lenny Bruce?

And frankly, I said yes. But, you know, like the fact that they had fallen off this show, I thought I was telling. So season five, we're in the end. game now. Hopefully to eight ends. Very beautifully for everyone. And probably poignantly and probably

bitter sweetly for Lenny Bruce. So until we're back in the blue room, Mallory, where can folks find you? Joe, they can find me with you. Over on the House of Ar, on the Ringerverse, we just

chatted about turning red and our Pixar Hall of Fame. That was a treat. We went quite long on the recent Obi-1. Canobi trailer, one of the joys of my life to talk about that with you. We've got Batman pods up. And speaking of Batman, where can they find you? Because you've got a new bot. I do have a new pod that someone already made a cookie out of our logo. I can't even. It's a wild thing. Trial by content. New podcast I have with Dave Gonzalez and Neil Miller, the Nikki and Frank to my Susie. And we'll be fighting about pop culture. Right. I mean, who could ask for it anymore. My goodness. We'll be fighting about that,

fighting about all kinds of pop culture topics over on trial by content every Tuesday. So that's currently out for folks to listen to. I'm also popping up on the big pick for the next couple weeks. Talk about the Oscars and leading up to that with Sean. You'll find me again talking about the dropout on this feed. and then back with Mal talking about all things geek on House of R. So it's a lot going on. We are excited to be here.

Thanks so much to our producer for this episode, Mike Wurgan. And we will be back with other shows at the Prestige TV podcast feed. Until then, enjoy your time in the Blue Room. We know we did. You can't reason with the sun. Trust us. We've tried. This summer, it's time to put that angry ball of fire on mute.

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