The Prestige TV Podcast - 'The O.C.' 20th Anniversary: "Pilot"

Episode Date: July 23, 2023

Bill, Juliet, and Joanna get together to celebrate the 20th anniversary of ‘The O.C.’ premiere and begin their conversation by sharing their experiences during both the rewatch of the show and when it first aired in 2003. They then search for contemporary comparisons to series' influence and shine a light on its exquisite casting, particularly Adam Brody’s role as Seth Cohen (8:49). After the break they discuss the first episode’s premise, lament the lack of “appointment television” teen dramas in today’s binge-drop market, and marvel at the perfection of Phantom Planet’s epic theme song (23:21). They end the pod by revealing where they were when they heard the iconic phrase “welcome to the O.C. bitch” and debating the episode’s place amongst the pantheon of great TV pilots (37:27). Hosts: Bill Simmons, Juliet Litman, and Joanna Robinson Associate Producer: Chris Sutton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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that I immediately loved because it was a cross between Beverly Hills 902 and O and the Karate Kid and a whole bunch of other shows I loved growing up. And this was the first attempt to modernize kind of the kid's soap opera. It became an incredibly influential show. It's a show that has trickled into a lot of the stuff we're watching now. It spawned some big stars. The first seven episodes of this show, I think are as good as just about anything. Of anything, and that has tried this kind of a show.

And what we're going to do is over the course of, I think, four episodes, break down those first seven. This is the pilot. Joanna Robinson, what jumped out to you? 20 years later watching the pilot episode. First and foremost, like, I literally laughed out loud when I saw the Pukeshell necklace on Luke's neck. Like, that was just an incredible, took me back moment.

But just in general, the fashion, I think it's like the epidemic of the low-rise gene and the handkerchief top and, like, everything and the makeup on the girls and the skinny, skinny eyebrows on the girls and all the sort of stuff. It just, like, looks like it takes place something. a different planet entirely. It's incredible. Julie, you watch the show every year, so it's a tougher question for you. But what jumped out to you 20 years later, even though it's every year for you? I timed it. Ryan Atwood does not speak until two minutes and 21 seconds into this show.

And the other person who is talking is his brother, Trey, who is recast almost immediately after the pilot. So I just think that is so funny. And I also will say 4K is not kind to watching this show. Yeah, you're right. That's a good point. They recast a few people on this show, including the little sister, who was played by Shailene Woodley. Yes. And the pilot. And pops in and out a few times. And then at some point comes back and it's just four years older.

There was some sort of time wait, which was one of the fun things about this show is the shows I grew up with. They were just these things wouldn't make sense. It's like, wait a second. You're repeating sophomore year again or junior. I don't know they did junior year twice for reasons that remained unclear. this show would just have people come in. Shrey is played by a different character when he comes back. I think what I loved about the pilot,

and you tell me, Joanna, this is an overreaction. It's a 43-minute episode, and they accomplish so much in the 43 minutes that I just think the way people make TV now, that 43-minute episode would have been stretched over three episodes, like as a Netflix binge watch. I almost feel like, because we're doing the first seven, you could say the first seven episodes of this of this season would have been an entire 13 episode Netflix season, right?

Yeah. Well, I think one of the reasons why this was such a phenomenal hit out of the gate was because it was summer programming, which we didn't really have at the time, right? So it debuts the beginning of August in those first seven episodes, which do feel like their own many season, are all sort of like the pre-fall debut of other shows. So like the O.C just kind of got it. its hooks into the audience when there wasn't any competition around it, which I think is incredible. And then you have to look like to your point about a Netflix season might stretch this

out. A Netflix season is 10, 13 episodes. This is 27 episodes in the first season of the O.C. And when you look at the character like Julie Cooper and everything happens to Julie Cooper, who's not even like the central character of the show, but like is married to an entirely different man by the end of season one? that's astonishing and has time for an affair with her daughter's boyfriend and like all other things in there

yeah it moves so fast and I think you know we're here to praise the OC not bury it but I think that's where ran into trouble later is that it burned through so much in this first season what do you think Juliet it's true I think your point about it coming out in August

is a really good one it started on August 5th it did have it's like sort of like season one it had seven episodes and then it took a six week break from September 16th to October 29th. I remember that six week period or whatever it was. I was a senior in high school and it was excruciating. I was dying to know it was going to happen. And that was, it was like, I couldn't believe a show would do this.

But it was the beginning of this idea of like year-round programming on the networks. And it was such a good, like the scheduling of it was so defining. And Bill, you're totally right as well. Like seven episodes is the length of a season now. basically did like three seasons and one. It's, or more than three. It's crazy. And I remember talking to Josh Schwartz, who created the show and was pretty young when he

created it. 26. This is pre-podcast. We used to do this thing called, I did on ESPN called the Curious Guy, where I would just interview people. We'd send emails back and forth and almost run it. Like, it was like a podcast transcript. We didn't know what podcasts were.

But I remember saying that was like the biggest criticism that I had of that first season was it tried to do so much that. it actually ended up burning through some of the characters, right? Like, the character, Luke, if you watched the first four or five episodes, he's in the opening credits, you feel like he's going to be like a major part of the show. And by the time we got to like the last few episodes, season one, they'd burn the character out. They had changed his direction three times because they were, they kind of didn't know what to do with, with that many episodes.

Not two in the two and had this issue two in the mid-2000s. They had 32 episodes seasons. Wow. You know, and do you think about that like 30? 32 one-hour episodes. So you end up doing these story arcs and you have to do these little three, four-episode things to try to kind of move the goalpost and keep it going.

And that's how you end up with like Kelly Taylor getting burned in a fire. And you just go down these roads. I think what I love about the pilot in the first few episodes, it's really condensed. It's like, here are our plots. We have Ryan, who's basically a human rescue dog. Is this family going to take him in

or are they going to send him back to the pound? Right? We have that. We have the next door neighbors. Jimmy Cooper. What's going on with him? Is he broke? We have the love triangle right away with Marissa. We have Cess already in love with summer. We have the new kid coming in who doesn't fit into this world. And then we have the whole world itself, which I think is such a big part of the show. I'd forgotten. Joanna, like just going to Newport Beach. I didn't know what Newport Beach was. I'd lived in L.A. for two years. We'd been to the O.C. once. And now I'm in this whole world. It's like, what? What's going on here? I think it's so important to remember that the like that the MTV reality shows of like the real OC and the hills and all that sort of stuff like comes obviously out of this obsession with this rich world. And this is something that Schwartz visited again with Gossip Girl, right, like bringing an outsider

character into this like really rich world. It's a, it's and it's what the Walsh twins did in 9-2 and O. You know what I mean? Like let's bring an ordinary person or Jen Lynn Lynn Lynn Lee in Boston's Creek. if you want to put it that way. Like, let's bring an outsider into this world. Let's, uh, and, and like, then bring the audience in with them.

And like in these, you know, we're here to talk about the pilot, but in the like these first few episodes alone, there are all these like events and party. There's like a casino night. There's like this. There's that. The other, you know,

like Newport Beat constantly has a party going on, which is why it's a great summer show. And I almost wish it, it's like, I think you should have stayed a summer show. I think that would have sustained it longer. because you get that really fun, weird tension between these teens who are too young to be adults, but are adulting alongside the adults and then the adults who are acting like teens. And summertime is like the perfect time for that to happen.

I just love that about these early episodes. Well, 9-0-210 had, when the show took off was they had the summer episodes. Yes, the beach like, yeah, the beach club and then the game a whole thing. I, so I remember when this show premiered, and I was writing for ESPN at the time, and I was working for Kimmel's show. And I got, I had somebody in the TV business who liked the column and would reach out to me. And he said, hey, there's a show coming out and it's literally made for you. Do you want to watch it? A friend of mine is the creator of it.

I'm like, cool. And they sent us the DVD. And I think it was only like one or two episodes. And my wife and I watched him, we're like, oh, my God, this show is going to be the biggest, this is it. Like somebody has figured it out. Juliet, what happened to these shows? Are there just too many rip-off version of these shows? Or why was this show so distinct and so special?

And why has so many different shows since... Like, my daughter would say Outer Banks is her version of the O.C. But I just don't feel like Outer Banks is as good of a show, as smart of a show, as well-constructed of a show. It's fun to watch. Sure. Yeah, sure. But it's no O-C.

So what happened? Why ever we want to be able to replicate this? I think there's a couple things to this. First of all, one thing that really struck me from the pilot is when Sandy and Ryan drive up to the Cohen House, the gates opening, it really felt like it was letting you into a world. And I feel like the idea of like this gated Orange County community was not overexposed. Yeah. It's before the Housewives. It's before Laguna Beach.

It's before like we're really familiar with that part of the country. And so it's like a real iteration on nine or two and out. And like, I mean, Bill, I think Josh Schwartz was speaking to us by including the fashion show, obviously one of the most important parts of season one of 9-on-0. So, you know, it really felt, it didn't feel like a rip-off, but it felt like it was acknowledging all that had come before. And I think that kind of like meta-television was genuinely new in 2003, particularly for Fox. And so when it like has these early references to like the things that Seth Cohen loves, like there's so many rip-offs of things that the OC did really well but burned out on, but it was, like, respectful of everything that came before, um, while still being different.

And for Joanna and I, like, the WB loomed so large, but this was like a totally different thing. Like, this was not a WB show. It was like, there was drugs. There was girls with like barely clothed. There was biting. Like, it felt edgy. There was cocaine, which having grown up in New York, I think is completely true to life.

I saw kids doing cocaine in high school very much like that. And so, yeah. And like, but it was, it was sort of like, honor, I feel like the WB was honoring like the feelings of teenagers by respecting them. And this was like honoring the actual experience of teenage rich teenagers by like showing how they partied. So it was like actually true to life and like a hype hyper real in a way. And I just think that's kind of lost. I think that's a great point about not knowing what this world was. And whether reality TV and a lot of these shows that have come out since have kind of ruined the

ability for a TV show to take us into a world. Because I felt that way about 902 and O living in the East Coast in the 90s. I didn't know what Beverly Hills was. I had no idea that the beach was super far away from Beverly Hills and just assumed it was this whole big place. And I felt the same way about the O.C. Then Laguna Beach comes the next year on MTV. It dives into it even further.

And then you get a feel for Laguna Beach. What else about this show just made a unique for you, Joanna? So something that the creators have talked about is this idea of center. a teenage soap, which was like a popular, you know, uh, genre, but centering it on these male relationships. So like making like Ryan and Seth's like brotherly relationship are making, you know, Sandy and the boys, this like father-son relationship be key to it. And I think that made it something that, um, men were more excited to watch. Like boys were more excited to watch a teenage soap, which is like so often a, you know, a female-centric idea. And then,

Seth Cohen as a character. This is a character on the bleeding edge of the rise of nerdcore, right? This only comes out a couple years after Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter hit at the box office and everyone's like, oh, should we? Oh, are the nerds here?

And have they arrived at the center of the culture? By the way, Seth Cohen's working for the ringer right now if he actually exists in real life. It's like, yeah, I talk to Seth about his podcast. It's going great. Exactly. He's on the ringer verse with us. I'm still upset that I'm not dating Seth Cohen. He's like my co-worker that I have to stay away from because I'm like too attracted to him.

They have to keep you apart on Puts. I just remember that like friends of mine who would never watch a teenage soap were watching the OCE because of Seth Cohen. You know what I mean? That like Ryan and Marissa and like all these other characters are characters that they recognize. But Seth was something new. And I think it's just Josh Schwartz putting himself in the show essentially. you know, and his own, and then like in Ryan, his own feelings of being an outsider in Hollywood is in the show. So there's a lot of like genuine, authentic personal experience in this first

season. And then in later seasons, like, things get so out of control that there's no like grounding and a real human experience in them. But I feel like that personal touch and that like specialness of Seth Cohen, Adam Brody, like, why isn't he the biggest star in the whole world? is my question out of watching these episodes. Wait, Joanne, you don't know this, but I'm going to say in 04, you know, I used to write. My fingers used to work once upon a time. And I had a proclamation. Every once in a while I would make these predictions.

And I'd think I really believe this. And one of the predictions I made was Adam Brody is the next Tom Hanks. But it was even like a tongue-in-cheek prediction. It was like, this is happening. Our next Tom Hanks is here. And his name is Adam Brody. Because I felt like if you went back and you looked at the old Tom Hanks IP from Splash and earlier in Bozum Buddies and his family ties, guest run and stuff like that, it was like, he's very Adam Brody-ish.

I thought Adam Brody was going to be a mega star. Juliet, you felt even more strongly. Yeah. So he left Gilmore Girls to do this. And I loved him on Gilmore Girls as well. He was the great Dave Rogowski. And I would have followed him to like the end of the earth. the only couple I loved more than my parents was Adam Brody and Rachel Bilsen.

I was like, this is really important to me. You were devastated when they broke up in real life. But actually, I'm not, I'm not joking. And I'm shocked he isn't more successful. I don't think this is like slanderous to say, but he, I think is a stoner. And I think like early in his career that got maybe got in the way a little bit. I know that he's like, I think like now it's kind of different. But also if you look at his IMDB, just like made some really weird choices.

and, like, he didn't pick the right projects when, you know, he was on his apex mountain. So I think, I don't know that anyone's, like, to blame. But, yeah, it's, I really thought he would be huge as well. Sometimes it doesn't happen. It's really hard to land the plane. I mean, can I just say one more thing about Adam Brody before we go to the larger cast? You can say five more things. He was great in Fleischman is in trouble this year.

He was. And I think a lot of O.C. heads were, like, excited to see Adam Brody have, like, something really good to do. So it's not too late for you. Adam Brody, if you're listening, and I hope you're not. But if you're listening, it's not too late for you to become Tom Hanks. I believe in you. Don't you think you?

I haven't seen these movies. So, Joanna, tell me if I'm wrong. But couldn't he, like, have been Deadpool or something like that? Like, couldn't he have been, like, a wise cracking? He's, he's in the Shazam movies. Right. He's kind of wasted, but he's, yeah, he's in there. Ant-Man?

Yeah, he could have been Amman. 100%. Right. Right. Did Paul Rudd Market correct them, I guess. They're different generations. But those Paul Rudd rolls, I feel like Adam Brody could have been in like, like he could have been an I Love You Man with Jason Siegel and he could have done a bunch of

that stuff. They're both absolutely ageless. You look at both of them. You've no idea how old they are. Like, sure. Truly no clue. There were some 2,000 shows that took on in a way that I just don't think can happen anymore for a variety of reasons.

This show, I think Lost was like that. Friday Night Lights was the belated where people figured out a way to catch up before season two, but that kind of happened. happened in a certain way. And I think the difference is, if you hit on a show like this, what was your next move? Because in the 902-1 era, it was, can you go and cross over into movies, or do you become like the third guy in law and order? Like, what do you do? You basically, two choices. And that was still the case in the mid-2000s. Like, our guy, Matthew Fox, party of five, it's like, well, what does that guy going to do now? Is he's not quite Keanu Reeves?

What's next? And then he ends up on Lost. And he has. second life. I think if the O.C., if the streaming era had been closer, maybe that would have been where Adam Brody lands and, like, this awesome streamer show, like in the first wave. But I look at back at the casting of this show, Gallagher, Peter Gallagher is the dad, like one of my favorite TV dads ever, ever. Absolutely. I think he's clear, Mount Rushmore for me. And his wife, who's played by Kelly Rowan. She's really good, too. The Cooper's perfectly cast. And then you saw Julie Cooper has the show evolved become like one of the keys to the show. Summer, who's an afterthought in the first episode, but becomes, you know, pretty big character.

And then we should talk about Ryan Atwood and whether that worked or not. What's your take, Joanna? Did Ryan Atwood 100% work? Was he too old? Ben McKenzie? I love Ben McKenzie. And he said such an interesting career post-O-C and then like his interesting, like, anti-NFFT, crusade, etc.

But like... He is the biggest anti... He's the most vocal anti-crypto and NFT guy like in the world. It's like what a turn for Ryan Allen, honestly. I thought it was like a joke at first.

I was like so confused by it, but he's passionate about it. It is, I mean, like, Misha Barton's 17 and I actually don't know how old Ben McKenzie was when he was cast her. So I looked this up. She's 17 when they're filming this

and he's 25. So that's that, just let's be honest, 20 years, later, that's a no-go. It's not great. But I will say that at the time, I was so, like, used to 90-2-0 where everyone was 30 that I just, like, it didn't register for me. And even watching now, like, Benficazi doesn't strike me as too old-looking.

Adam Brody was also, like, in his mid-20s, right? But it happens. By the time we get to season three of the show, it's like, because this happened a couple with a couple of-2-0 characters where it made sense the first two-year-old. years, but then Steve Sanders celebrating his 21st birthday when he was 35 in real life. Yeah. And Andrea is another one. So.

Guys, it's Andrea. Come on. Where'd you stand, Julia? Ben McKenzie's too old. And I just think that his vacant look is not like a brooding look. Like when he's like, whoever you want me to be, it's not really, like, never did it for me. I was just like, eh, okay.

I just, I never felt like I was getting lost. in the scene with Ben McKenzie. And I also think it's unfair because Bill U.Texis about this, but I completely agreed then and now. Misha Barton at 17 is just like one of the most beautiful people I've ever seen. Joanna was making one of her fashion, but I

really wanted to be her. I wanted to wear all of her clothes. I wanted to look like her. I wanted to like body snatch Misha Barton. And I just think that it was like totally unequal. He was like just a total, he was a Ken. She's a Barbie. It's like so so rough. She's everything. He's

just Ryan Atwood. Exactly. I mean, yeah, I'm making fun of the clothes, but like, iconic for the time, obviously. Like, revolutionizing the flip-flop, like absolutely. And she's wearing Oggs really early on in the Southern California. And it's like... With her nightgown, I think. Her nightgown.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. In the second season, she's just about the most beautiful person who's ever been on a television show. And it's hard not to watch even the pilot and think, like, man, you would have, this was a first round lottery pick. definitely. You have, you know, it's a little like watching Lindsay Lohan

and mean girls or something. We were like, man, this whole person's career is ahead of them and it's going to be an awesome career.

She wasn't as good of an actress as Lindsay Lohan, but she was beautiful and she was perfectly cast. And, you know, Ryan seems a little old in the pilot. It didn't totally take me out of it, but it was something I noticed.

But if you're going to nitpick on the casting, that's probably the one I would go with. I was doing the research. I'm not positive. This is true. But it was in IMDB. So I'm going to maybe, As you, like, rewatchables called half-aceted research.

They said Garrett Headland was the other choice for this. Chad Michael Murray also. I don't know about Chad. I don't know if I'm buying him as a street tough from Chino, but Garrett Headlin, who I've always really liked. I know there's some, I know our beloved Liz Kelly, that's like probably her number one, even though she just got married. But I think Garrett Headland, I think he would have been a better age. I think I would have bought him more as a street tough.

Ryan Atwood's fine. He doesn't hurt the show. He gets his ass kicked over and over again in the first few episodes. Oh, if anyone's too old, it's the actor playing Luke. Chris Carmack. That's our 30-year-old. That's our 30-year-old in the cast, right? He's still in my life because I watched Grey's Anatomy and he's been on Grace for a few years.

Oh, I love that for him. That's great. Yeah. Garrett Hadlin is six years younger than Ben McKenzie. So that's a great point. Olivia Wilde also almost as Marisner. And then she comes in season two as Alex. Yeah.

But like imagine this show with Olivia Wilde and Gary. That's a good show. So they had two finalists for Marissa. They decided Olivia Wilde was a little too strong and they wanted Marissa to be a little more emotionally unstable. Misha Barton was better. She'd been a child actress, so she'd been around a little bit. The Melinda Clark and Rachel Bilsen were supposed to be guest stars.

They blossomed in a much bigger. And then Adam Brody, I guess, came back a bunch of times to get cast. They never, Josh Schwartz. was such an intimate character to him. He never felt like he was the right fit and didn't. And then all of a sudden, it kind of clicked and they got him in there. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound terseptide may be able to help.

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Anyway, give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. payment of $45 for three-month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first three months only then full price plan options available taxes and fees extra see full terms at mintmobile.com the premise of the show I just want to point out in the first 12 minutes of the show so we start with the cold opening right where they're they're breaking a car through the kind of the the organic opening credits that aren't really the opening credits through our first commercial break it's 12 minutes we get we get we get to meet Ryan's awful mom. We get to meet AJ the abusive stepdad who just takes a couple shots at Ryan. We get the theme song organically in there. We get Ryan taking the ride to the

OC. We get the house with the gates opening up. We get him sneaking out to have a cigarette and meeting Marissa for the first time of the nine times she's waiting outside her house. We get the rich guy picking her up. So we get the villain right away. And then we get Ryan sleeping in the guest house. And they do all this in 12 minutes. I felt like in Netflix, That's episode one. Yeah, at least. Like, we're done with him falling asleep in the guesthouse, right? They would have dragged out 90 different pieces of that.

And I just like how concise and succinct it is. I miss TV like this. Hearing you say that, one thing I really miss from network TV is, like, having these characters in my life, in my life. Like, even though it was 27 episodes and by the end of season one, it was insane, I would, like, look forward to spending time with these characters every week for 27 weeks. That's more, that's, you know, more than half of the year. So, like, I joke about my TV life.

and I'm like, oh, this was like the most important person in my TV life, but it was real because I was doing it every week. And so even though these Netflix shows like move slower, there's so, it has so much less impact. And I think part of why the OC had such a big, you know, like left such a big mark on culture is because it got 27 episodes similar with 902.1.0. There's so much to parse. And like, House of the Dragon was awesome. But when the Emmy nominations came out, I was like, oh, right, that show that I spent eight weeks with and then moved on. And you just like, it just becomes a part of your life in like a way that's like kind of emotional to me. Well, it's the short season, it's the shorter seasons, you know, like you, I would happily spend more time with the Roy family, like week,

in, week out, sort of that like appointment television. There's very few shows that people consider appointment television and they're almost all on HBO, right? And then the binge drop. We've talked about this when, when Bill and Mallory and I talked about the bear, but like, I would argue this many weeks later, like the bear feels like it happened eons ago, whereas we would still be getting episodes if it hadn't done a binge drop. So the binge drop damages that sort of like week in, week out, living with the characters feeling, and then the shorter seasons too. And like for a lot of shows, they only have 12, 10, six episodes of story. But like for something like the OC, for something like a soap opera, which is what the OC is, there's a wild places you can go in.

a season. And I think, I think it's fantastic that it's 27 episodes, honestly. I miss, I miss this air of just once a week, the show, coming attractions for the next week. Also, I just feel like the stakes were a little lower for a bad show back then. We would make fun of the bad show or that have some bad plot or whatever, but it wasn't like the end of the world. Whereas, and I guess there's something good about this too, but every show now, they want every episode to either to drag along so that they can drag the season along or to just kind of try to hit either a home run or a double every episode, right? There's something I miss about just like you think back to some of these OC shows where

later on this season where Luke finds out his dad's gay and it's like, oh my God, my dad's gay. Juliet, chapter inverse. Well, it's a bad episode, but I'm glad it exists because it's like, all right, this is what happens when you're making a 27 episode, you're going to have some strikeouts, you know? And I just think shows are so afraid of the strikeouts. So either they just string it along where nothing happens or it's like the bear

where it's just carefully constructed episode by episode. There's no in between anymore. So where this is happening now is on Bravo. Those shows are 20 episodes long. They're like people that you live with. You feel like you know them. And they do happen to like be alive. So like what kind of show?

Like below deck is like a 20 episode season. But that's a reality show though. Yeah, but that's what I'm saying. It's shifted. Bravo's kind of filled this hole with like this weird hybrid of like, Bravo shows are like at their own genre at this point. I would say it's not the same as like other reality shows. But they basically are just doing these like unscripted soap operas essentially.

And I think for people like me, the appeal of Bravo shows is not that like I think they're so entertaining or so amazingly well done. But it's just like you get to have these people in your life once a week and it fills the void. It's lower quality without a doubt, but like, that's sort of where that energy is gone. Well, I guess on the flip side of this, especially when you're dealing

with younger actors, you have this window before they start to get older, before things start changing. So maybe it's like better to have these shows where it's like 27 straight weeks or 27 episodes of we get to spend time with these people at this point in their life

versus like Outer Banks now where they come back and it's really three years after they started filming, but it's supposed to be two months after when the show started. I don't know. Maybe I'm just getting older, but Joanne, I'm just nostalgic for these kind of shows. I don't think they exist anymore. I mean, you're not going to get any argument for me. You know that I'm like anti-Binge, but I think that that it's so interesting to think

about how reactive a 27 episode season can be to like what the audience is interested in. Like you mentioned how Rachel Bilsen is supposed to be a guest star, right? and then the Somerset stuff is working so well that they can almost instantly like pivot into leaning that way. And by, you know, we're ending with episode seven by episode seven, like we are in Seth and Summer Territory. But like the shows that were 27 or even 22 episodes, they're writing as they're airing. So they're able to see like how audiences are reacting to certain things. That's a good point. What is it like five episodes ahead or six episodes ahead?

You're something like that. Something like that is sometimes only like two or three, honestly, with somebody. of these shows. And like, I think that you shouldn't always, of course, be led by the nose, like following where your audience is reacting to. But there are some ways in which you can just sort of like a live theater. You can hear the applause and see which jokes are working and what aren't. And you can lean into that. And TV does that now between seasons, right? Mallory and Chris and I were talking about that when it comes to like the TV show justified. And now, like, characters were built up over seasons in reaction to like the way that the audience

was responding. But the fact that you could get it in. of a season so quickly on something like the OC is, again, a lost art, man. Well, I wonder, we've seen so many people try to do it. And I wonder if that's part of this, too. How many of these shows, Julia, you've probably watched all of them. How many of them have failed? Like, I remember my wife and I, one summer, Amber Heard was on one of these shows, and this, like, set in Palm Springs.

We watched every episode. We thought it was great. It got canceled. There was a high school reunion show where they went back, you know, there was somebody died. We didn't know who it was, but it went back and it kind of pivoted back and forth that that one got canceled, but it was the prototype for probably six other streamer shows. But it feels like they did a 9-2-0 remake.

They did a Morrow's Place remake. They did Dynasty. They tried to remake as a nighttime soap opera, and nobody can land the plan. So why? I think that it either goes too far and, like, being edgy, or it's too sanitized. And I feel like this sort of middle ground maybe wouldn't hit the same way now. But it was revolutionary then. But I feel like, you know, Euphoria is probably the most successful teen show, right?

But it's so different. It's so much darker. It has like this attempt at Verite that I think, like the OC doesn't feel like verite, but it resonates. Whereas I feel like shows now try to be like either hyper-realistic or like go too far or like just don't resonate. and I think that's the thing that Outer Banks for me is like there's nothing real about that show.

It's just people running. Just people running away from somebody else. Or like, fan boating, you know. Yeah. And it's like the absence of parents, like I feel like the absence of parents

is a really big part of the Outer Banks and like the sort of like spiritual ancestor of that is one tree hill. And that show is also like insane. And I feel like that's a different kind of show where you don't really take it seriously, but it is really popular. But the OC you could take seriously.

That was one of the other. things about the O.C. Because I remember when the wheels started to come off and the way you knew it was Peter Gallagher's character, the dad, who was the great dad, one of the great dads ever. And all of a sudden, he was like kind of thinking about having an affair. Right. And I was just like, no, you've, yeah. And I was like, no, you've, you've built this dude up for me successfully as a fucking awesome guy who is the moral compass of the show. And now you've taken this moral compass and you just shook it. And I can't recover from that.

Nano 2 and O had this same issue with, you know, the Brandon character who, you know, he was always kind of the moral compass. And then they would try to do this stuff to make a bench, like, oh, he's got a gambling problem. But it was never bad. No notes, Bill. I got no notes on Brandon. Everything about him, I love.

I like what Julia is saying about the absence of parents. So because this is like the OC trying to balance the parental storylines with the teen storyline. That's like a constant question in the world of teen melodrama, like my so-called life. But you feel like it was successful in the O.C. though, right? Because I think it was. But then like, you know, yeah. And like some shows don't even like, you know, in 902 and O'S essentially what they said in Jim and Cindy Walsh off to Japan, right? They're just like, yeah, they're literally gone. The last two years, they had nothing to do. And then like now the parents are barely figures in teen shows. But there was this moment in the early odds, late 90s where we

were trying to like make something feel. I think the reason is to make adults feel okay about watching a teen show. And I think now everyone's just sort of like, it's okay to watch your teen shows if you're an adult. That's an okay thing to do. Yeah. Yeah, like my group texts, my friends are like, who's watching the summer I turn pretty? I was like, you guys are? Like, that's not for me, but okay.

Well, sadly, I might have seen a few minutes of it, thanks to my daughter. And that's like, honestly, that's her OC is the summer I turn pretty. She likes that show, probably the most of all the teen shows. But that's another show where, you know, can't say the parents are super important. Impact. Yeah. Something I wanted to go back to you from a few minutes ago, you're talking about the first 12 minutes, Bill. I think the introduction of California by Phantom Planet.

Yeah. First of all, I felt emotional. I'm watching it for like the millionth time. Me too. I was like, this is the most per, this, it's a perfect pick of a song. No, it's the best theme song anyone's ever had for a show. It just is. The way that it's brought into the show, like the way the needs.

needle drop is executed is so perfect that like it's honestly moving. It's like, and it's like a mission statement for the show. It is perfection. It sets such an incredible tone. And that is like the real takeaway from the pilot is how that song functions. I'll go one step higher. The closing credits instrumental version is also awesome. Yeah.

And I think, I'm probably overthinking it. But what I love about that is like it's not like Ryan's moving to California, right? He's in California. but the premise of this move is like, welcome to the real California. Welcome to the real land of plenty and like golden beaches. Here we go.

I do have some California questions about the ride from Chino to Newport Beach. Just seems pretty short and brisk, the OC pilot. As somebody who's driven all around California for youth soccer forever, like not a short ride. No.

Anywhere to Newport Beach, but especially if I'm coming from Chino, I don't know why Sandy Cohen is over there. no, they're just flying back and forth. I didn't really get that part, but I love Sandy Cohen. With the mom who is very good on this show, Kelly Rowan. I'm shocked to hear you say that, honestly.

Well, in the first couple episodes, you don't like her? The chunky highlights. I think I was going to say, I'm very distracted by her hair, which does improve from the pilot to episode two, but I don't know, I just feel like she doesn't have, would Sandy Cohen choose her, she doesn't have the charisma. I'm sorry. It's sort of like a real letdown

for a Sandy Cohen stands and he chose this kind of like vanilla wafer. So you wish it was like a Robin Wright type person? I just thought she did a good job acting and then the wheels came off as they just made her a drunk.

But you watch in the first couple episodes, they do plant the seed. Like she does have a drink a lot. Like I do think they plan that one pretty carefully to send her that way. I could be wrong, but I felt like the premise is like they meet in college

when she's in her like rebellious experimental phase, right? Yes. And like, so like, right. The affair was like this thing. So when he met her, she was much cooler and she was at Berkeley and she's rebelling against her like terrible fathers and like that. But then they move back to Newport and she just becomes like re-newportized. Do you know what I mean?

And he's like, this isn't who I thought I was marrying. I think he says literally that, right? So like, I can kind of, I can forgive it for that. I imagine that Kirsten in college like was much cooler. That's my hope for Sandy. Well, she, I mean, Julie was the catch. And then they make her like a complete self-parity in the first couple episodes. but then she becomes like a way more fun character than Kirsten.

Way more fun, yeah. And Melinda Clark is fun. I loved her on Entourage. Like, I just thought she was great. I think she's one of the all-time. I don't know why your career wasn't bigger and better and more important people that we've had the last 20 years. Every time she comes in, she lights out.

We didn't mention there's an evil water polo team in this show. Hell yeah. Great stuff. Led by Luke, um, leading to, um, we have the beach house party. where there's cocaine and a threesome, get a brief glimpse of a threesome,

Seth gets bummed out because he thinks, Ryan lied to him and said Summer likes him, but Summer likes Ryan. And then he gets bummed out. He finds out she likes him, why don't you just go back to Chino? Does that thing. Goes on the beach,

gets bullied by the water polo team. Ryan comes in to lose his second fight of the episode, and Luke does the iconic, Welcome to the O.C. bitch, which became one of the biggest reasons the show took off. Absolutely. Because it was the combination of like, it's kind of self-parody, but it was also kind of cool. And then Seth references it coming out of the commercial break. They come back and they make jokes about it.

And I don't know. It's just, I thought it was really smart. First of all, having Seth Cohen as a character commenting on the ridiculousness of the show does so much for the show. And also, like, I was not in on the OC from the very beginning, but I remember Welcome to the OC bitch. Like, I got in somewhere in season one, but not at the beginning. I was not in August straight from the jump OCEer. But like...

Joina was too cool for the show. She's like, I'm not in. You're going to have to win me over O.C. I was not too cool. I was definitely not. I was home. I remember watching this incredibly clearly, and I was riveted. And it, like, changed my life.

But I'm just saying from someone who was like outside of that hearing, welcome to the O.C. bitch in the culture without having the scene seen the show yet i was like what is happening it was a preme meme essentially you know and it was just like yeah between one of the best tv theme songs of all time that suddenly got so much radio play and welcome to the o c bitch it's like if you weren't watching the oc you were missing out on these and you know that's because we're in like a monoculture space you're missing out on a phenomenon and you had to watch it so you knew what other people were talking about It also gives us this world of just young rich kids partying, which I hadn't seen in this way on a TV show.

And then it became way more standard going forward, and especially with Laguna Beach. But I'm going to defer to Juliet on this as the queen of the sad montage song, which we have Ryan, Marissa's friend's dump her in front of her house and they're drunk and they drive off. And Ryan goes down and we get sad montage, Ryan, carrying her up to the guest house. Did the OC invent this or was it ER? You tell us, Queen of the Sad montage. I think that the OC certainly perfected it and made it.

I would say Friday night lights perfected it. I don't know, man. No, you'd go OC? The OC was really early to Rufus Wainwright singing, hallelujah and also Jeff Buckley's singing hallelujah. They did both. And they had Masy Star. And Image and Heap, yes.

I think the OC owns this corner. Oh, you're probably right because they did the Sandberg. Yes. Yeah. They did this where they kept shooting people over and over again. It's one of the funniest sketches of the Andy Sandberg era. But yeah, I think the OC, because they come out right away with Massey Star and Holly, I believe. And Massey Star was very big for like the sad montage on the WB, but the OC did it better.

So I'm definitely giving it to them. We're going to get there in season seven. when Ryan's fucking carrying Marissa Like, episode seven, yeah. Sorry, episode seven. Like, he's Jesus and she's the cross or something. It's very weird cross imagery. And there's Mazzie Star playing.

I'll never forget it. So it just, the music supervision of the OC is also like one of the defining characteristics from the very beginning. It's so well done. When does the Peach Pit After Dark Club, like season two starts, right? No. Joanna, no. Season five. No, no, for now two and no.

saying for the OC, like they're, they're comparable. After Dark is season five. The bait shop. Yeah, the bait shop. The Bay Shop season two. Season two. That's what I'm saying. So like, 9-2 and it took five seasons to get to the Peach bit after dark. The OC's like season two, here we are at the Bay Shop. So like, you know, Olivia Wilde's here. Her hair is purple. It's great. Also, I think it's in episode 15. Paris Sultan shows up. They're like, it's called the L.A. and they go to the Rooney concert. And that's when Seth turns to Luke. And he's like, who sings this song? And Luke runs, yells Rooney and like, keep singing. Misses the joke. But like,

Like they already have bands in season one. It was like a really big part of the show. Well, it was the thing where the band start jockeying to be on the show. Yeah. As you know, Babyface really would. Well, it was Color Me Bad on Not-O-Tibodeo. And then Baby Face had his big one where he brings David Silver on stage to play the second synth of them. I think the gin blossoms played at Steve Sanders.

Oh, they sure did. The Google Girls. Yeah. It was Google Dolls. Right. Do you remember how they used to do like the band would show up on No 2-0. And then between 9-0-2-0 and Melrose Place, they would play like the new music video for the song.

They'd be like Jade, Jade's new video. So one of the great things about this pilot, it does everything you want to do in 43 minutes, including kind of a cliffhanger where the moms goes, I don't want this kid in my house anymore. Ryan over here is, that's okay, I get it. You have a really nice family. And then Sandy Cohen drives him from Newport Beach all the way to Chino, which probably two and half hours in traffic.

Gets home. The house is empty. And the one good thing Ben McKenzie could really do on the show was the, I'm broken. Nobody believes in me, Ben McKenzie's sad face, which he does. He puts his head against the wall. And then Sandy Cohen, the most awesome guy ever comes in and sees him. He's like, come on, let's go home. End credits.

We're out. Now what's going to happen? Wait, he's coming back. The mom just said she didn't want him. and we're off. It's for 43 minutes, they do all these different things. And we didn't even mention like the Jimmy Cooper might be going broke.

So they set that up. Like they set up all these things that I'm ready to roll after this. That's another one where like, who had the highest stock going into this? It was like either Tate Donovan or Peter Gallagher, but I would say Tate Donovan had like, was the most recognizable person coming into the show. And like,

and then they're like, we don't, we don't really need you. Tate. Right. You know? I agree with you that Tate Donovan probably because of being on friends and dating Jennifer Aniston was really had a moment around the year 2000. Jennifer Anderson and Sandra Bullock, just FYI.

He comboed that. They discussed it last year or two years ago in interview magazine. So check that out. Great stuff. Peter Gallagher has like some real cult classics already by 2003, plus he's a Broadway star. I would say I felt like this was a Gallagher show and he was first in the credits. I felt like he was the big one. Just quickly dated stuff, no Uber.

We have no fast internet yet. The fashion Joanna mentioned. The HD is not great in a couple cases, but for the most part, I thought the show aged pretty nicely. Some nitpicks, though. The one that jumped out that I, you know, they kind of shoehorn in.

It's just Jimmy and Kirsten lived next door to each other, even though they had this whole romantic history. And Peter Galger's character is, threatened about it. And it's just an obvious trope setup. But they really, they have to live next to each other. They're just in the houses right next to her. They're not next to each other.

Then, like, how do Marissa and Ryan meet in the driveway? Well, that's a thing. That's why it works. And I'm not complaining, but it's just funny. And then Summer's, like, really awful in the pilot. It's funny how that character evolves. They make her the total rich bitch character, which Nautil Tuna had the two with Jenny Garth,

the Kelly character for the first season. It's pretty irredeemable. and then it grows. Cordelia and Buffy. Like, that's like a fun trope to watch is like someone who's who, a woman who like seems awful. And then you're like,

oh, look, she has dimensions. That's interesting. All right. We're going to wrap up so we can get to, uh, we want to do the next two episodes because in a lot of ways,

the next two episodes are more important than this pilot episode. Just before we go, what do you think is the most successful pilot you've ever seen, uh, Joanna? Uh, it's the lost pilot. So I have lost as well.

What do you have, Juliet? I think is this or lost? I mean, I don't think anything else comes close. But I think this is like very close. What about one hour pilots? I think Friday Night Lights has aged really nicely. I was going to say Friday Night Lights also.

Succession is the years pass. I think I appreciate that one more for how much they set up in there. But I mean, that's, I'd say, way better caliber show than the O.C. But you know what I mean? Yeah. This is a really weird one. And I don't know if you guys have watched this show, but The Riches on FX, which was around the same time. Like Eddie is there?

Yeah. Yeah. that was a really, really good show and a phenomenal pilot. I recommend it. Two of my old timers that probably have an age well for the kids out there, but Cheers and the White Shadow were two of the most famous pilots. ER pilot was good, too, yeah. The ER pilot.

Yeah, it was really good. And it had the big surprise at the end with Juliana Margulies coming in with a drug overdose. It also had that cliffhanger. It's a really good one. And Mark, Waging. And YPD Blue and Miami Vice, two famous pilots. So there's some big ones. Twin Peaks.

Twin Peaks, a good one. 21st century, the whole famous pilot thing, the pilot becomes more of a vehicle just to set up how long the show can go versus the actual quality of the pilot. You know what I mean? Yeah, this is true. In the streaming age, there's less going to pilot and then getting picked up to series. You get picked up to series faster.

So you have to prove less in a pilot. It's a good point. At this point, you had to like, Josh Schwartz has to be like, like we can do a whole show of this. Look how much we did in 12 minutes. We can do a whole show of this, you know. Right. You're playing every trick you possibly can.

All right. We're going to come back and do episode two and three of the OC, which are just crucial, crucial pop culture episodes. Thanks to Chris Sutton for producing, and I will see you on the next episode of the Prestige Hall of Fame, the OC, the first couple episodes.