The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘The Penguin’ Series Premiere: Batman Sopranos

Episode Date: September 20, 2024

Justin Sayles and Wosny Lambre waddle through Gotham to recap the series premiere of ‘The Penguin.’ They discuss their relationship to modern superheroes on-screen, where the ‘Batman’ spinoff series fits within the crime drama genre, and Colin Farrell’s performance underneath all of the prosthetics (2:00). Along the way, they talk about Oz taking Victor Aguilar under his wing and how their partnership parallels early episodes of ‘The Sopranos’ (18:27). Later, they briefly share their reactions to ‘Wise Guy: David Chase and The Sopranos,’ the HBO docuseries detailing the goings-on behind the scenes of the classic TV show (49:53). Hosts: Justin Sayles and Wosny Lambre Producer: Kai Grady Additional Production Support: Justin Sayles Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I am the content lead for culture here at the Ringer. And today, we are discussing a show that I don't think I would have ever thought would have been mentioned in the same breath as prestige TV. The Penguin, as in the Batman film, as in the one that Danny DeVito played a long time ago. But this show is on HBO. It stars Colin Farrell. and it exists in the same universe as a movie that people loved from a couple years back called The Batman.

We're here breaking it all down. And to do it, I've invited my friend, someone who understands that guys like us got to stick together. 100%. Senior staff writer at the ringer. Yes, sir. My favorite superhero from Gotham, Big Was, Wozney, Lambray. How are you doing today, Was. I'm good, man.

I actually watched the episode, you know, around noon. today with taping at like 430 because I just wanted it to be fresh in my mind before we hopped on. And I mean, I thought it was pretty interesting. Like, there's some goofy stuff happening, but I think there's some entertainment and there's a story, if not a fully fleshed, overarching message or theme. But I think there's something to what they're trying to do here. Full disclosure and our producer, Kai Grady, contest. you this. I watched this for the first time on Sunday night and I was super not into it, right?

Like I was, I was like, this isn't for me. I have made a mistake by forcing myself to have to talk about this on a podcast. But I rewatch it today. I also rewatched the Batman, the 2022 movie. And I'm a little bit higher on it than I was. I can't say I'm all the way in, but I see sketches of a good show in here. Right. Like, I'm not, I'm not all the way out. I'm not all the way in. I'm cautiously neutral on it. For me personally, I think it comes down to the fact that, Waz, are you a big superhero guy?

Because, like, personally, I am not. I'm not at all. Particularly in the modern iteration of superheroes. You know, when I was younger, I watched the Spider-Man cartoon. I watched the Batman cartoon that came on either before or after Gargoyles, whatever the hell that was. Wow. I watched Fantastic Four. I watched Iron Man. I watched Incredible Hulk. I watched all of the, because in New York, they were both Saturday and Sunday morning cartoons. I watched all of these cartoons growing up. Then when they dropped the movies, I watched the Spider-Man Toby McGuire movies. Enjoyed them. I don't think I've ever seen a single X-Men, a single Fantastic Four. I think Sparta. Spider-Man is the only thing that I've ever enjoyed from the genre and the Christopher Nolan Batman.

Right. Like this whole MCU thing, it completely, I've managed to completely ignore it outside of the first Black Panther because I didn't want my black card, you know, revoked. And so I saw that. Was, I try to be a good ally. And I think that Black Panther was the only MCU movie that I went to go see in the theaters. So, look, I think people listening might wonder why a couple guys who don't really care about superhero shows that much. Although, like, you know, I've loved a lot of the Batman stuff. I, you know, even going back to the Tim Burton stuff and Christopher Nolan stuff, Batman has always kind of been an exception for me.

But I think people might be wondering why a couple guys who don't care about superhero shows are covering this on the Precise TV podcast feed. And the first I'll say, this is the Precise TV podcast. If you want all the fandom shit, you can go over to the ring of verse and hear the Midnight Boys discuss it. You can go over the House of R and hear Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin discuss it. 100%. The reason why I wanted to talk to you about this show is because it had been sold to me all along as a mob show set in the Batman universe.

And we are both mob show guys. We're not MCU guys. We're not superhero guys. But, you know, I think one of the things that we've bonded over has been the Sopranos. 100%. That's a big show for us. And I think the Sopranos will come up a lot as we discuss, as we discuss the Penguin for some reasons, maybe very obvious and maybe some more subtle reasons as we go along. You just hit it right on the head.

This show is fashioning itself not as your quote-unquote typical superhero fair, but it's a crime drama. that's what it is, right? Like, it's no different than, I mean, it's plenty different than Breaking Bad and the Sopranos, but it's this same idea. It's like our main character is trying to make his bones in the criminal underworld. And there's a lot of obstacles in his way.

And we're going to watch him try to navigate and succeed. And I think mainly why you have to use the Breaking Bad, Sopranos framework is because the penguin is a bad guy. He's an anti-hero. He's not the typical white hat. He's clearly not a lovable character. He's just not. But he's our main character.

And so we have to basically be on the ride with him. So let's go over some key details about the series. And let's start with the fact that it's a series centered on a Batman villain who I don't know if it has as many fans as like a Joker especially these days. A Joker's got a lot of fans these days. Or even someone like the Ridler or Poison Ivy is the penguin who I personally as someone who didn't read up, who didn't grow up reading the comics only knew as Danny DeVito. So I was kind of surprised when it's like, oh, this is like a mobster played by Colin Farrell under a lot of makeup, a lot of. A lot of

makeup, a lot of prosthetics. The penguin, his name, his real name, which I had never learned until the Batman movie, was Oswald Cobblepot, which is, that's a hell of a name. In the great lineage of mob names, I don't know, Oswald Cobblepot really jumps out to me, but this is what we're working with. The Penguin series takes place one week after the events of the Batman, which was the 2022 Matt Reeves movie starring Robert Pattinson as kind of the emo Batman? So can we, just for a second, I just want to address this because as I'm watching this,

my very first note is, are we supposed to like already have a strong understanding of Falcone family lore of, you know, they kind of just casually drop that a terrorist attack has happened. And full disclosure, I haven't watched the Robert Pattinson Batman movie. I meant to watch it a few times on the airplane, but I just didn't get to it. It's a long movie for an airplane. I'm not going to lie. Well, shit, if you're going from New York to L.A., that might be the one. People think you need to watch long movies on airplanes.

I'm personally, like, give me, like, an hour 40 max. Like, I need something that I don't need to be like. So you watch two of them. Give me two movies. And, like, I don't want to be locked in for three hours on the same thing. I don't want to have to have to remember shit from three hours ago on an airplane. Fair. Fair.

But I've never watched it. So, like, the way they position it is, like, a lot of this stuff, you're just supposed to already understand who the falconies are, the terrorist attack, who did it. Just penguins positioning in this world. Like, you're supposed to kind of, it feels like I'm supposed to already know this stuff. I will fill in some of these gaps. I did not expect to be the Batman lore guy as is kicked off. But, you know, not the hero that the podcast deserves. I don't know.

What is happening at the beginning is basically, and this is spoiler for anyone, including Was, who has not seen the Batman. But it's from the very end of the movie where the Ridler, basically, who was played by Paul Dano in the movie, he begins targeting and basically assassinating in very crude ways. various powerful people in Gotham. That includes the mayor. That includes the DA. It also includes Carmine Falcone.

And he is literally killed by the riddler with a sniper rifle toward the end of the the Batman. And shortly thereafter, while he's sitting in Arkham Asylum, God, I never felt like I'd be, God, I never felt like I'd be saying. So while he's sitting in Arkham Asylum, all of a sudden these explosions that he had set off, I believe they were car explosions, begin going off around the city. And it causes the city's seawall to fall, which causes Gotham to flood, which is why you will get. I don't know how much we're going to get into the drops business.

here. That's why the drops are all wet. That's why the drops are underwater because the riddler came and he just flooded the city and that also flooded the drops business. And what the effect this has had is it created a power vacuum.

I have one note at the very beginning the newscaster says, we're getting unconfirmed reports of explosions around the city. And then they cut to the videos of explosions and things collapse. It's like, what,

like, yo, I know we live in the age of AI, but how much more confirmation do you mean? But anyways, you know, I will, what I will say,

I'm assuming being a New Yorker, liking the kind of movies that we both like, I'm assuming you're a John Titoro fan. Of course. He plays Carmine Falcone in the movie. Copy. And, and you know,

and I know we're going to get into this where I'm just like, was there, not a fat character actor that we could have gotten to just play the penguin. And I think Colin Farrell's doing a pretty freaking good job. Like, Colin Farrell's a great actor. There's just no two ways about it. So he can't, like, if he's trying at all, he's going to do a good job.

But I just like, the entire time is just like, I can't believe we're paying Colin Farrell all this money to lead this series so he could look like this. It's just killing me like that I don't even get to look at Colin Farrell Do this You know what it's like It's like when you In the 2000s When you put on Mad TV

And they were doing a Sopranos Sketch And this is This is like What the guy who was supposed to be Tony would look like Just totally Totally like fucking charmless

You know I don't really We're not using the word Swag in 2024 But it's total swagless Tony Soprano. He's like Tony Soprano, you order off Timo. It's, there is like...

The Kirkland brand Tony Soprano. Exactly. And like, even the way he's talking. And I think there is a certain charm to it and at certain points the charm does come through. I will say, in the Batman movie, the charms actually really come through. He's, he only has like four or five scenes, but one of them is like hands down the funniest moment in the entire movie.

It takes a little bit for it to come out here, right? Like, I think he's, I think there are moments where I really appreciate what he's trying to do. We can get into whether, well, I think at the end we should get into like whether some of the more humorous moments landed because I kind of, I found that while the show like the Sopranos or Breaking Bad or Mad Men, like, you know, of course I'm setting a very high bar by comparing the penguin to these shows. but they move very easily from humor to action to heartbreak. And I found this show being a little clunky as it tried to maneuver back and forth between tones. Let's just do this. Let's just run through a recap of the show. And then we can jump off to certain points, right, where it makes sense.

We start the series with the Penguin. Basically, he is where he, basically the same shot that he, basically the same shot that he, leaves off with in the Batman movie, looking out over the flooded Gotham. And then very shortly thereafter, he's waddling, is literally waddling. You feel bad for the guy as he got the name penguin in this, right? Because this guy, this guy waddles. There's no two ways around it. Carmine Falcone is dead. A lot of other people are dead. There's a chaos all over the city. There's a power vacuum. And in that power vacuum, Carmine's son, Alberto, is taking over. The penguin is breaking in.

He's taking some files, some jewels, some compromising photos. And then in comes Alberto. And immediately, I think the show gets into what I found to be the theme of this episode. And maybe the kind of a theme that Matt Reeves, the Matt Reeves universe is trying to really talk about with the Batman extended universe, which is this theme of halves and have-nots, right, where you immediately get this. this impression that Oswald, the penguin, is this guy who's really had a grind for whatever he has in this shitty world. He's a nightclub owner. He does not, he's not particularly smooth. He makes enough money to own a Maserati, so I think it's kind of funny to say that a guy is a have-not while having a Maserati, but it's very clear that now he has to eat this shit

from this spoiled little fuck, right? Alberto Falcone, who, comes in and like he doesn't want to hear his story about the old school mobsters and how it used to be and he wants to tell him how it was going to be and he's giving him attitude and right away we get the first big moment of the series which is he calls him a little bitch and he taunts him and says no one's ever going to throw a parade in your honor and this causes the penguin to have a I think he uh he lost his composure there for a second and he shot and killed alberto falconi Was, as your introduction to the world of the penguin, what were your impressions of this? I'm never mad when rich heiresses or airs, little punk silver spoon guys are portrayed as the little ninnies that they are, right?

Like, it was a bit over the top and heavy-handed in its application during this interaction. like this being like basically the very start of the show. But again, I thought it effectively, you know, sort of position Oswald as a bit of a thinking person's gangster, if you will, where he's telling that story to be like, bro, like, there's a way to make a killing while having people root for you to do so. Like that helps you in the long run. When you have people on your side, people who think of you favorably,

you can make a killing while doing that. Like he's positioned himself as somebody who's intellectualizing his gangsterdom. Like that's what he's trying to show in that scene. And of course, the lunk-headed kid who never had to work for his position. And it's literally being handed the throne of this crime family just because, you know, he came out of his dad's dick. You know, like they're just trying to show you the two sides of this. Like, again, like, Oswald has to fight. scratch, claw, dig.

He's ugly, he's fat, walks with a limp, isn't from a prestigious family, but he's very ambitious to this other guy who's just had everything handed to him and has the nerve. And my problem with that scene is like, you just got the throne kid. Like, you don't just get to talk to soldiers this way.

Like, you want to engender some level of loyalty amongst your crew. Like, the idea that this guy would just show up and just start berating people just seem kind of, ridiculous, but it achieved its goal. It made us sympathize with Oswald and be like, all right, man, like these guys clearly doesn't deserve the position that he's been handed. I really was, I thought the story that Oz told was very nice. I thought it was, it honestly, it also reminded me in many

ways of the first, you know, basically the first scene of the Sopranos where he walks in a Dr. Melfi's office. And he's talking about like the old school way of things. Like, I feel like I came in at the end of something. I found it interesting that the show was so willing to go from that story to this kid being like, oh, you fucking idiot. Like, you think I'm going to like be some small time, some small time hood? Like, you think I'm going to function like that? Like, it seemed a bit aggressive, but it did get the point across that this is, that he comes from a different world than the people that he is going to be going up against,

apparently, for the eight episodes as he wrestles for control of this crime family. And in fact, that very much leads into the very next thing we see, which is after he kills him, after he's lugging Alberto's body out of this loft. He runs into four kids trying to steal the rims off his Maserati. Was, do Maserati have, like, special rims? Like, could I do anything with a Maserati rim? Stealing car parts, whatever. Like, we live in California.

We know what the hell's going on up in Oakland. Like, it's on the news, they're in there every day. like people are stealing shit off of cars all the time. That wasn't really my main problem with it. My main problem was nobody could, like, you couldn't run away from this fat dude with the wobble. That seems just insane to me that he couldn't run out of harm's way. That was my only problem with it.

And like, you know, as the episode progresses, we learn, like they're giving us an origin story with him and this kid who he's basically making his protege or apprentice or whatever you want to call it. Or his Christopher. Oh, his Christopher. No, I think that's a very different show is what you're doing. Yeah, no, definitely. His Christopher.

But, you know, the Sopranos, we didn't need an origin story of Christopher. Like, I didn't need their origin story. I'm still not even sure who's cousin. I mean, I know he's Carmel's cousin, but he calls Donius. Right. Like, I think, I think Carmel. Mel is his cousin by marriage. Like, it doesn't even matter.

It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It's like, this guy, this kid is a part of my family, so I've took it upon myself to take him under my wing. In this case, like, Oswald was like, I found you, you was doing petty street crimes. I elevated your criminal level, right? And that's what we're meant to, you know,

start learning as the episode goes on. I think, I do like one part about this scene where we get the first glimpse of the accent in this series. Because at one point later on, he says, pop in circumstance. But right here, he says, you're going to do whatever I say, or else how moira you and anyone you care about.

It's fucking great. Yeah. The New York accent work is killing me. It really, really, really is killing me. But, you know, again, they're trying it. So we're dealing with it. But yeah, I was just like, guys, this is, this is aggressive. Like, these folks are really, really going for it, right?

And I think Kristen Melody, she's really good. I'm assuming she's probably Italian in real life with that last name. She's got to be. And she's doing a good job. Like, she's obviously had people who talk like this for real in real life in her life before. So she can do a decent enough. approximation. Everybody else is got, and I'm never accent police. I don't want to hop on Bill's corner with accent policing, but like it's just, it's, it's hitting my ear a certain way,

because maybe it's because of like homesick or whatever, but I'm just like, guys, we get it. This is supposed to be New York, but you're doing a lot right now. They are doing a lot. Pop and circumstance is will forever be embedded into my brain. They, why do you think, I think Oz took, and the kid's name is Victor Aguilar, what do you think he saw in that moment? Because, you know, the other kids, they run away, and Victor kind of can't get away, and then he's stuttering, and then Oz looks at him, and he's like, in this moment, he has his little bit of sympathy. But it's also clear that he sees that he can help him in this moment. He needs someone to help him dispose of this body. Do you think in that moment he saw someone who,

he could mold and literally take under his wing. Do you think that maybe there was an emotional response he had when he saw the kid? What do you think it was about this that made him react that way? I think it's definitely an emotional response to a younger person. But, you know, and I think the reason, if why I think this too, what I'm going to say next, is because throughout the episode, he's sort of like dissing his, the kid's acumen. at crime. Like he's like, what, like, what are you going to do?

Like, what, you're going to take this and what, take it to a scrap yard and get a couple. Like, we get, like, this kid is already doing crimes, right? So he's a fellow criminal, fellowhood. He's just doing it at such a decrepit level. I'm going to elevate this kid. I'm going to show him how to actually do this and make some sense of it. But I think that's what it is. It's like he's not grabbing some square nine to five kind of, you know, draw a paycheck type of job.

He's like, all right, this kid's already into criminality. Let me freaking elevate this kid's life. I think that's what it is. It's like a commonality like, all right, we're all out here hustling. We're all out here trying to scratchy claw, but we can do this much better than you are. Yeah, I think that he maybe saw a little bit of himself in him too, right? I think he saw this kid who was doing this low-level crime.

I mean, I think it's no coincidence in the context of this story that he's coming across him right after. after he gets done killing Alberto Falcone. Right? He just got done killing this little shit. And here he is with, like, look, this kid's a moron. He's trying to steal rims off of Maserati. Like, if I see a purple Maserati, I'm just not getting near it.

Right. Like, I don't care what, like, what's it? Whether that person is the criminal mastermind, the penguin. It doesn't matter. Or they, but they have enough money to own. Right. Yeah. And the kind of person who wants to own a purple one.

Right. Which, you know, again, throughout the episode, We get, like, people make comments about it because there's meaning to it, right? It's like, all right, you got your little Maserati, but you had to get a purple one. You have to make sure people notice it. You know, like, it says something about the person who's inhabiting that character of the person who drives that car. And yeah, you're right. Like, to me, like, the kind of person who gets a Maserati and wants it to be plum, excuse me, not purple.

I think that says something about their mindset. He quickly becomes his driver, and I think at some points, which is very funny about the Christopher element of it. And of course, like, the early story of the Sopranos is Christopher's ambition, right? And him wanting to rise up in many worlds, right, in the world of organized crime and the world of entertainment, that's a whole different thing. We don't have to get into all that. But I think there are some obvious parallels here to the point where there's some shots of them driving that reminded me a lot of the very first episodes of the Sopranos with, Christopher driving Tony around, like literally possibly the same shot or from the same angle to, in my mind,

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Pump and circumstance. I'm going to say this so many times on this episode. I can't believe he said pop in circumstance. But he's brought in to talk about the drops business. Did you understand what the drops business was all about was? Were you locked in? I'm assuming the drop is that drug that the, you know, the Falcone kid was taking. He gets high.

It's like the equivalent of an eyedrop or whatever, but it gets you high. Yeah. So it's just like, you know, whatever, Fent, drop, Coke. you know, freaking Heron, whatever. Okay. Your drug, meth,

you know, like, it's the, and I get it, it's freaking, they got to like, because that's another thing that the show is doing,

it's trying to at least still kind of straddle the fence of, this is part of a superhero. Right. Story. So we need to do some diversions from hard reality. And I think this is one of the ways

that the show tries to do. that. Like, they couldn't be moving a lot of oxy, right? Like, they couldn't, like, it had to be a fictional drug, right? Right. Well, in this meeting, he gets called in to discuss the evolving nature of the drops business and the fact that half of the drops are underwater because of the Riddler's actions, we meet Sophia Falcone, who's played by Kristen Milioti, who you brought up before. And she is fresh out of Arkham, and she wants to know where the hell her brother is. But immediately, She projects as very competent. She projects as, you know, her brother was supposed to be the boss.

And we don't know quite how this is going to shake out right now. But you get the impression that this is going to be the most formidable person that he's going to have to deal with this year. What did you think of her as a character? I mean, it's like you said, it's immediate. Her screen presence, her ability to hold a fucking gaze, dude. Like, it's pretty incredible. Like, I definitely stood at attention as soon as she got on screen. Like, she clearly took this role and was like, yeah, I'm going to throw 100 miles an hour every single pitch.

This is, we're not playing this, like, super subtle. And I've seen her in a whole bunch of other things. She's generally always playing, like, a really crazy broad. Like, she has a thing for these kinds of characters, right? And so, yeah, like, it's obvious. It's like this, you know, obviously this is what Colin Farrell is doing with the prosthetics and the fat suit and the voice and all of that. And obviously your attention is going to be drawn to that. It's the person that's at the center of the show.

But Sophia Falcone, like, it's obvious this is where the rest of the oxygen in the room is going. And rightfully so. Like, she's doing a great job. She is, she says that she is fresh out of Arkham. I did try to do a little bit of research. So for anybody who thinks that I'm just like flying completely blind in the Batman world, she does exist in the comics. She is described as a psychopathic serial killer in everything that I've read about the character.

She doesn't fully come across like that to me. She actually comes across as like, you know, a little sadistic, but not unhinged, right? Like, she actually strikes me as very much. in control, especially in relation to her brother. What I am saying is I would go to war for this woman. Like, I would follow behind her. Yeah, what it feels like, it feels like somebody who does suffer from some level of mental health situation, but they got the meds under control, right?

Like, they've got their situation calibrated enough that it's like, I have this in me, but I've got it in line enough that I can really be. a functional fucking crime boss, matter of fact, not just a member of society, but I could really... Right. And in fact, some of the remnants of my mental health issues actually aid in my crime bossing, you know? And so, yeah, I thought, like, the way that she calibrates the...

This person is a little off, but this person is clearly very driven and pretty freaking sharp. I just thought was excellent because there's a way to do that where they lean into the, I just came out of the crazy house or whatever, a little bit too much. And she doesn't do that. I do think on some level, too, the story of Batman as a whole is the story of Batman beating the shit out of mental health patients. Fair. Fair. I mean, it's the Joker. It's the Ritler. It's just all these people that, all these broken people that grew up very poor

and didn't have access to the same worlds that the Batman did didn't have access to mental health consulers after their parents were killed so now they are forced to live with this and they become criminals and then the Batman just piece of shit up. So and just

to that before we move on it because I do think like this character is just great for the show as good a job as, you know, Ralphie was doing as being just a maniacal character or any of the other people

that came into the world that we knew were like a Tony nemesis. There was no question we were never rooting for them. Whereas like, this woman comes into the story. And I'm like, hey, I don't know. I might want to see this person succeed. Like, we never rooted for Gus Fring. You know what I mean?

It was just like, yo, the chicken guy as freaking scary as hell. I mean, look, well, I gotta be honest. I kind of liked Gus Frank. Especially, like, by that point in the series, I'm like, Walter White might be the worst person. Yeah. For sure.

Out of all of them, right? Like, out of Don Draper, out of, like, the guys from Deadwood, out of, all of them. He's the most contemptible. It's not even close. Walter White is the worst of them. And I don't care of that, who that alienates me from. I know, like, we did a best TV character.

of the 21st century bracket at the ringer a couple of years back. Like peak COVID, we were bored out of our minds and it's like, well, let's do this. And Cartman almost fucking won, which was crazy. But Walter White beat Tony Soprano. And I'm like, that's absurd. You know, I run the risk of alienating a lot of people right here. But a lot of these people might have already churned it off when it's like when I said that, we're two guys who don't want superhero movies that are about to talk about this. So I might have already lost them. But voting for Walter White over Tony Soprano, that's some incal shit. It's ridiculous. It's insane. That's an absolute insult shit to me. I don't know about you. I've never rewatch Breaking Bad. I've never wanted to. To me, it's always been the kind of show that you put on

once and you watch through. And, you know, it's a lot of people describe it like doing a drug, right? Where you get that high, right? But I don't want to go back to doing that drug. Yeah, I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. Maybe one day I'll get super bored or maybe my woman has never seen it. I'll be like, fuck it, I'll rewatch it with you. It was a good show. But, like, yeah, I just remember the first season. And this is a digression, sorry, folks. But I just remember the first season, particularly being really goofy and, like, mostly, like,

kind of funny-ish. And, like, Jesse was just so over the top. And I was just like, but then, you know, obviously it got good. And, like, that first villain that, like, Latin dude that was, like, kind of jacked up on. Cucco. Cuck. Oh. So, yeah.

Anyway, that's my breaking bread digression. Ended up loving the show during its run. I was locked in for the last episodes. Like, whatever. Yes. But yeah, to Sopranos, come on. You can't do that. No, but to wrap up that digression, it's on basic cable sometimes.

And I will just put it on and I just have it on in the background. So there was a period a couple years ago where I actually like just casually rewatch some of it whenever it was on TV. It holds up a little better than you might remember. But at the same time, it doesn't have the same. level of depth as a Sopranos, as a Deadwood, as a madman, as even like a justified, right? Like, it's just, it's incredibly well-acted. It's, there is this incredible rush. I really liked Gus Frank.

That's all I'm going to say. I really liked him. Even in my first watch, I felt so bad for him that he had to deal with this piece of shit, Walter White. But to transition from this, well, God, I'm transitioning to this and I'm like, I'm going to bring up something that gets us right back into the Sopranos. He has the dinner with her. after he visits the Falcone house.

And, you know, it's established that they have some kind of preexisting relationship. Definitely not romantic. I was really worried the show was going to bring this to a romantic level. And it's not, it doesn't seem to be going there. The show has respect for our intelligence. Like, that chick is not fucking this dude. There's no way. Nohow.

One of the things I found most odd, shortly thereafter, Victor and Oz go to Oz's mother's house. And whose house did that remind you of right away? Of course. Livia. Remind you right of Livia Sopranos house. It was like... 100%. It was like it had the same like suburb... I don't know what the jersey of the North Jersey of Gotham is. Like it might just be North Jersey, but... I don't know how we can look this up. I'm almost positive that house is in Queens. Okay. As somebody who grew up in Queens and like They had the, like, it was like 7205, which is like the thing in Queens where it's like the number and then dash another number. Oh, interesting.

So like some of the context, because I'm pretty sure they're in Queens, New York, which is another thing that I got a kick of watching the show. Like they're clearly in Bushwick in certain pub scenes. Like this house, I'm pretty sure is in Queens. Just some of the like outer borough stuff gave me a little chuckle, just as to, you know, the pure outer borough scum. that I am. It gave me some nice outer borough pride. The house very clearly reminds me of Livia's. The mother does not fully remind me of Livia,

other than she seems to be very much in the know of the happenings of the crime world in a way. Well, he just straight up told her what he did, which is like the kind of thing that Tony never did. He just straight up told her, like I killed the freaking boss of the family of the one of the two big crimes. families of this city,

you know, the Moronis or whatever, being the other ones. Like, I just murdered the freaking boss. There's the clear Tony Olivia parallels where I think they diverge. Like, she clearly is encouraging this guy. Whereas Olivia would have been like, you're an idiot. Can't believe you did that. They're going to kill you. You're going to deserve it. Like, she would have just completely lit into Tony

for doing something that completely reckless and stupid. She more than justified it. Not just justified. It told him that it was a brilliant thing that he did. And that he's going to take over the city. And I think that's what the point of that entire scene is like his mom is sort of his coach in a way. And so, yeah.

It gave flashes of the, if you think back to the pilot episode of the Sopranos. And again, I'm like my bias is showing. I'm just going to bring up the Sopranos a million times in this conversation. But the version of Livia that you think you might have, that you think you were going to get based on the pilot where she's a little bit more in on these things, right? She's a little more outwardly conniving, right? Like, I think after the show settled in and it realized it didn't have to be, like, as cartoony as it got at certain points in the pilot, you see, like, her manipulation of Junior and Tony. It's very slick, yeah.

Very slick, very subtle. But in that pilot episode, she's, like, openly talking with Junior about, like, we might have to kill Tony. And it's like, what is this? This is, it's funny to rewatch that pilot. Although the one thing they have in common is, I mean, Livia never said this directly, but, you know, calling him a weak little pussy boy. There were some similarity in the moms and that. And it was, and again, there was some unnecessarily sexual undertones in the dynamic there that made me at least a little uncomfortable. Did you, for a second, wonder if that was actually his mother?

Hmm. No. No. Okay. Like the whole thing felt like a mom thing to do. Trekking all the way out the Queens and like it felt like a chore. Okay. It felt like he was doing a chore. Okay. I just because of those sexual undertones, I'm like, this is his mom's house. And I'm like, wait, these are a weird sexual. Is it actually? Is this? Is this chick? No. No. He's clearly, he's clearly getting with hooks in downtown Gotham for alibis and stuff. So he's doing that. I think another reason why they showed this house specifically, though,

even though, you know, the first time I watched, I was like, well, come on, they're just actually just showing Livia Sopranos house, like a version of that. Watching it again, I think it's no coincidence that it basically goes from, you know, there's the dinner in the middle, but it goes from the Falcone house, which is, you know, this McMansion. The humble where he's from, yeah. Yes.

The house that he's going to get handed down to him when his parent passes. That's his empire. That Rinky Dink crib. He's going to have to deal with a reverse mortgage on that shit. Exactly. Like, you want to talk about underwater. You know, that house is underwater. Sorry, mortgage humor.

I've been looking for a house was. But I think that the series was really trying to drive in this idea of haves and have-nots and trying to like place him as this person. And Victor, too, as these people who are going to rise up in this world. and take over this world that has previously been ruled or has been the domain of these incredibly wealthy people, these unfathomably wealthy, out-of-touch pieces of shit. Yep.

I'm interested to see how that comes to fruition throughout the rest of the series. There were some points where he was a little heavy-handed here. There were some points where it was actually, I think, done really well. From the mother's house, he leaves, he goes to go back to, I believe, his house. He sees Sophia very hands-on for an acting boss. She doesn't quite know she's the acting boss at this point. Yeah.

But, like, very hands-on, right? But she's there with some of her goons at his front door waiting for him. And he sees this, and he books it in the Maserati. He's maneuvering. And then eventually he comes to an end. They grab them up, take him to the crib so they could torture his ass, rip his fingernails off with a wrench and pliers or whatever. Real quick, though, and again, like, I swear I'll stop comparing everything the Sopranos by the next episode. Or maybe I won't.

But did that scene where they actually... finally got him out of the, like, when they, when the dude was trying to fight him in the car, didn't remind you of that scene where Tony got shot an episode in the end of season one? Where the black dude comes and, and a little bit. I can see that. I just thought more in the way it was shot. Yeah, that's interesting. I don't know, because, like, I never, what's funny is like, I didn't think this guy was going to get caught, you know?

So that's how I'm looking at this. I'm like, yeah, Oswald's definitely going to get out of this. He's going to weasel his way out of this. So it was funny. Like that's how I'm watching. Like Tony sort of struggles or whatever. And like, let's be real. At no point that we think he was going to die.

But like maybe like he reverses the gun or whatever. But like I don't know. I went into that thinking he was going to get away. Scott Free. I don't know why. But he didn't. He may have a little bit at the end. So one thing I skipped over is he visited Salvatore in prison.

And, you know, Salvatore clearly had no respect for him. Like a lot of people in this world. Nobody has respect for him. He's wrong with Dangerfield. Right. But then he shows him this ring that used to belong to, I believe, to Salvatore, that Carmine Falcone had been wearing around like his, like almost like, you know, like he snatched his chain and he's wearing it, right?

And this obviously impressed Salvatore, but it also plants this thing in the audience's mind where, you know, you see a little bit of his cunning in that moment. And the cunning comes to full fruition. toward the end of the episode where we see that under Oz's direction, Victor has rigged the car

to crash into the front of the Falcone compound where Oz is being held in the back and possibly about to get his arm severed. Really a lot going on in this moment, if I'm being honest, as I try to describe this succinctly. Yo, I'm really watching,

I'm like, damn, did the penguin have a false arm too? It was... That seemed really intense for an episode one for me. Like the piano wire, like trying to sever his arm, the shooting of the other kid

who had tried to jack the car. I'm like, I get you got to hit him. Hit him hard at first, especially if you only have eight episodes. But I'm like, this seems, this escalated very quickly. It escalated quickly.

It ratcheted up the stakes. But, you know, in the end again, like I'm fine with the justification in the sense that we're shown like, nah, this guy's actually thinking through his criminality. He's got some level of a plan as to how he's going to achieve his goals. And that's shown to you at the end of the episode. I'm like, all right, we're following a guy who, if he's not a criminal mastermind,

he's somebody like that's putting some level of thought and not just at the seat of his pants with his criminality. So like, that's what I'm just like, all right, by the end of the episode, I'm like, all right, I'm cool with this. I'm going to watch this with, you know, and be interested in it because this guy's not a complete dope. And, you know, these are worthy, especially the Sophia character. These are worthy adversaries. And I think that's where I landed on my second watch, right? That these were two solid characters. These were two worthy adversaries.

That whole scheme at the end is set up to look like Salvatore's boys did this and this was payback. Would you have bought that if you were Sophia? It's definitely possible. She knows that the last thing he was doing was that the last thing her brother was doing was going to Oz's club, which is, by the way, called the iceberg lounge in The Batman.

Not mad at that name. I mean, it's not completely implausible. This is somebody there in open warfare with, basically, they're fighting over drug turf and territory. They're fighting over control of, you know, money. They're fighting for money. So it's not some completely implausibility. That's why I didn't have a problem with it. It's like, yeah, y'all been

beefing with these people. You guys are trying to, you know, outdo them in this business. It's not completely implausible, which is all I ask for. Just don't be pulling stuff out of your ass. You know what I mean? It has to work in the universe of the film, of the TV show, or the film, or whatever. And I guess in this case, they're both connected because this is all leading up to the next Batman, which will come out in 2026, which maybe by then you'll have caught up on the first one. I thought that this landed fairly well on my second watch. I think on my first watch, I was, again, I confess again, my first watch I was not super into it. The second watch, I'm like, all right, I'm going to see where this goes. And I like the way it set up the rest of the season. And my question for you is,

how are you feeling about the rest of the season? And any predictions on where it may go or just like what you're looking out for. I mean, I'm just, I'm just curious. Like, the thing that fascinates me the most about watching this, just as somebody who doesn't engage with superhero content on a regular basis, is how they straddle the sort of hyper-reality of this world and the more superhero-e elements that you're supposed to have in this. That's what I'm really looking for.

Like, what do, what choices do, they make in terms of like what's the difference between this and the wire or the like you know which is like all right the wire is supposed to be baltimore in present day when he came out like just real stuff i'm just wondering how they bridge that gap right because even the new york city or gotham city that they're depicted it's like new york isn't that scary anymore guys like it's just not. Like, it's just not, dude. Right. Like, Bushwick just isn't scary at all, okay? It's a bunch of smoothies and green juices, y'all. Like, I'm telling you.

So I'm just, I'm interested to see how they string that balance. And I'm, and, you know, I'm always going to be interested in Colin Farrell. And I wonder how much of it, like, I don't know, just kind of looking at a freak show element there is to, like, this performance that he's just so unrecognizable. Was, I have one prediction I want to throw out there for you, and I might be wildly off on this, but one thing that I'm thinking about is the Victor character potentially, you know what? It can't quite work out this way because the penguin has to end up in the Batman 2, I believe. I don't believe that he's going to gut gut in this. But like, do you think there's any Benny Blanco from the Bronx potential on this?

You know what? bad guys tend to not have sidekicks. They tend to have henchmen. Yeah. And like the fact that they're developing this kid into a person, which leads you believe that eventually he's going to split off. Like they generally don't have partners, the bad guys. They're usually these like, like Lex Luthor is like a single entity and then he has goons.

You know, like Heath Ledger in the Batman movie just has a bunch of random goons. Right. Like, they don't tend to have, like, not even co-equal partners, but like, you know, somebody that's on reasonably equal footing with them. So, yeah, that would lead you to believe if, you know, the superhero stories from before to be followed that, like, this guy probably spitting us off into his own thing at some point. Well, so their relationship's not going to end well is basically the thing I feel pretty confident about. Yeah, it's starting off too rosy, for sure. There's something, it's got a, there has to be a, it has to be a little bit of a roller coaster. Could you give this episode a grade?

Man, in terms of comic book shit, I personally, because again, like we got to be real, like, I'm not a fan of a lot of this, like, nine out of ten of this stuff. 7.5, 8 for me. Okay. All right. Yeah. Out of 10? I'm in the same range because I was, as I was going letters and I was going to say like B minus C plus. solid B. I'm here for a B.

So it didn't live up to the pilot of the Sopranos for you. No, it did not. But, you know, what I will say is like, there's a place in the TV ecosystem for this show in the sense that not everything can be Shogun where it's like I literally can't even look at my phone. I have to be locked into the freaking screen for the entire 45 to 50 minutes of the air time.

And something like this was like, I'm paying attention, listening, look up when I hit some guns, rewind when I think I need to, like, it's fine. It's not hyper, you know, intensive watching. So I'm happy with that. Couldn't have said it better myself. But speaking of something that I watch hyper intensively. Yeah, same. Let's spend five minutes. We spend enough time talking the Sopranos and how it relates to the Penguin.

What did you think of wise guys, the David Chase documentary? It was excellent. Just to hear David Chase, his story, like the show makes sense when you understand his story of a guy who fell in love with movies but started making a living in TV and became good at TV in the sense that he became so intimate with the limitations and the expectations of what the TV medium afforded to a creator. Right. And his sense that he could tweak those things to green. great effect by packaging it in this crime story genre. The way that they explain like why the whys of the soprano, more so than the hows, just the why of it all, you know, why he felt like he could do something else, why he felt

limited by network TV, why he thought HBO was the right vehicle, you know, I just thought that was incredible. And I think, you know, like David Chase explaining to you, like, I'm like, yes, this is a crime story, but it's a story about America. Yes. And our post-hyper capitalism moment and era of just like, you mean to tell me nothing means anything outside of making money? You know what that does to a society? You know what that does to people? You know what that turns people into, right?

I just thought that was great, man. Just David Chase is explaining what kind of story he was trying to tell. And obviously the guy's just a freaking genius, man. There's just no two ways about it. It was the first time I had ever heard him say directly, this was about the decay of America and American Dream, that told through this late stage capitalism, late 90s excess. And I thought that was really great.

I had obviously read a lot of people who had made similar connections, but as the first time I'd ever heard Chase say this and everything I've read or consumed on the show. To the point of making it as a filmmaker, I think it's no coincidence that we learned that he was heavily influenced by Fellini.

I also was fascinated. I'm almost like, I don't want to spoil this part for anyone who hasn't watched a documentary, but I knew, over the years I learned that the way that they approached that finale was the whole idea of Tony's point of view,

so that way when that final scene happens, you're supposed to be getting that shot through Tony's point of view. So I had read some things over the years about like that explain exactly how that worked. I had never known it was influenced by 2001. And that was one of like the small things that I'm like, holy shit. Or like talking about that scene from the pilot where he's running the guy down and it's like and they line it up with the Chinatown shot. And I'm like, oh my God, that and that is fucking.

Chinatown. In addition to that, the, first of all, the Gandalfini stuff was heartbreaking. Like, we knew a little bit of that, but just every time that story gets told, it's just heartbreaking. Hearing him talk about the character is, like, so eerie. He just had, like, a, like a palpable remove from it, but also a deep connection to it. It's like these parallel tracks that he's on. Like, you could tell he's apprehensive about, like, what it means to play this guy, you know, like, and understanding that, like, yo, I'm an Italian-American guy from New Jersey. Like, I know what this means to my culture, you know, especially from the outside looking in what a lot of people think about the people from the world that I'm from.

Even if he's not from that, he's adjacent to it. So, like, his intimacy there, but, like, his clear just like, I'm not this person. My parents were artists. Like, I'm like a regular dude. He speaks differently. Yo, his voice is not even close. Yeah, just listening to Gandalfini talk about the role. And even when he makes a joke about it, he's kind of like sheepish.

Like, his relationship to that character is quite fascinating for me. But yeah, just hearing Chase talk about the art that he's into, what he believes art should be doing. That's it. That's it for me. It's just amazing, dude. We could sit here and talk about this all day. Yes, sir. Go watch that.

Yeah, seriously. If you are into the penguin and have watched, even if you just watched The Sopranos once in the pandemic and you didn't really, like, it didn't really hit you the same way it hit me and Waz. Go watch the documentary, Wise Guys. You'll find a new appreciation for it. As if we need the world needs more people shoving down their throves,

how great that show is. But it's really great. I wish we had more episodes of that. But we will have more episodes of The Penguin here on the Precise TV podcast. We're figuring out exactly what the cadence will be. It's kind of dependent on you, the listener. If you want to hear more of the Penguin, hit us up. We'll be back at some point.

Might be next week. Might be in three weeks. But just kind of all depends. Thank you, Was, for coming here and doing this with me. Again, guys like us got to stick together. That's right. Thank you to Kai Grady for participating. and we will see you next time.