The Prestige TV Podcast - The ‘Sopranos’ Episode That Got Us Hooked

Episode Date: October 2, 2025

On this episode of Hooked, Jo and Rob go to therapy with Van to talk through why "College" will make you obsessed with ‘The Sopranos’! (0:00) Intro (03:15) What is ‘The Sopranos’? (08:06) When did Van watch ‘The Sopranos’? (22:23) Season 1, Episode 5: "College" (37:04) How were women treated in the show? (55:10) What is the most ’90s thing about the show? (1:00:21) Final thoughts Email us! ⁠[e-mail]⁠ Subscribe to the ⁠Ringer TV YouTube channel⁠ here for full episodes of The Prestige TV Podcast and so much more! Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney Guest: Van Lathan Producers: Olivia Crerie and Ashleigh Smith Additional Production Support: Justin Sayles Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I'm Joanna. I'm Rob Mahoney. We're here with the series season, let's say finale of Hooked with a very special guest. It's Van Lathan. Van what's up? What's up, everybody? How are you guys doing? Tell me about the vibe today.

You're coming in high. You're coming in with the pigskin. I feel this is a good time. I've spent this past weekend watching Demon Slayer, one battle after another, the smashing machine, all it. It's just a good time to be talking stuff. There's a lot of stuff to be talking about. Look, World's on fire.

That's okay. We're focused. It's not what it's about today. All right? Save that for higher money. We're going to go back in time. We're going to go back to the 90s. Please.

When the world was leaving. less on fire. Does that sound like a good idea? This is Hooked, which of you have not been listening to our previous episodes of Hooked, the premise of which is what, Rob Mahoney? It is if you were trying to get a friend, or in this case, two podcasters, to watch a show they had never seen before. What is the one episode of that show you would put in front of them that is not the pilot? Today is a momentous day because Rob Mahoney and I have gone from watching zero episodes of the Sopranos to two episodes of the Sopranos. Incredible gains for us.

Who's going to hold us back now? Who's to stop us now from world domination? And Van is here to Van's playing to us everything that's important about the Sopranos and why we are better people for having seen these episodes of television. Yeah, it's tough. Can you see a difference in us, Van? Like, are we glowing? Do we have a different aura?

You complimented my hair earlier? True. And by compliment, I mean, you just noticed it. You didn't say anything nice about it, but that's okay. Isn't that a compliment, though? Like when you say, did you change your hair? Yeah. I guess it depends how you say it.

It depends on the noises you make. If it's like, it's not, you know. Is that a new shirt? Mm-hmm. From, it's interesting. I am glad that you guys are taking your soprano's journey. It is just a weird, wacky, crazy journey. But it also is very indicative of a time in American television history.

Yeah. And I think you can. watch the change in television throughout the run of the Sopranos and right after it. So it's not only an insanely entertaining show to watch, but also an incredibly important show

to watch. I can make an argument that maybe if the Sopranos doesn't take off like it does, then this show maybe doesn't even exist. Wow. This podcast? Yeah, maybe it doesn't even exist. Maybe that's not even a thing if the Sopranos doesn't become what it

becomes. Just you saying that is making me like blink out of existence back to the future style. Yeah, like a little Marty McFly or you can't play guitar anymore. Okay. So bare bones, what the Sopranos. The Sopranos ran on HBO from 1999 to 2007. And as Van just mentioned, forever changed the way we think, talk, and write about television as a medium. It's not the only show to do that, but it is one of the biggies to do that. It won two Peabody Awards, five Golden Globes, and 21 Emmy Awards. Oh, shit. Including, it was nominated for Outstanding Drama Series every single season,

and it won two of those seasons. And it ushered in the Golden Age of the White Male Antihiro with shows like The Shield, Breaking Bad, Mad Men, Dexter, and, yeah, even Game of Thrones, which was pitched to HBO as The Sopranos go to Middle Earth. all of that comes from the Sopranos. I do want to do a quick footnote because Vann is here and Vance the person I know

who mentions this show the most, Oz did predate the Sopranos. I feel like when we talk about the Sopranos, we erase what Oz did to sort of change the way that we think and talk about television. So I just want to put that footnote in there.

Maybe that's like a future of hooked episode for us to talk about. Please. Can I say something about that real quick? Yeah, please. So not only does Oz predate the Sopranos, but the wire comes around three or four years into it, right? Oz was an appetizer for what the Sopranos was.

And as great as the wire was, it became a side dish while the shows were both running. And the reason why that is is because the wire, to me, when people got around to understanding just how brilliant the show was, it was brilliant because of all the ways, at first, for all the ways it wasn't the Sopranos. Now, to me, the Wire has gone on to become a show

that is more critically acclaimed than the Sopranos and, to me, better. But not, it wasn't as accessible as the Sopranos was, and neither was Oz. And the Sopranos was a show that had all the critical bona fides, the performances, all of that stuff, but it was accessible to a wide audience and ways those other shows weren't.

I remember Oz at Poyce was scary with the amount of violence, some of the sexual abuse, some of the things that it dealt into. It just wasn't for all of America. The Sopranos was incredibly violent and all of that, but it was funny, it was charming, it had beautiful people on it from time to time. So it was the show that proved that a show like that could be for everyone. It's an interesting, you know, obviously you're the expert on The Supranos compared to us on this podcast, but just even watching these two episodes and then doing some reading about them, but trying to avoid any spoilers, actually.

It's tough. It's tough. I think that is one of the things I was most impressed by was the sort of Trojan horse way in which you have something that is so funny and does give you, like, the high and low, the low of like, there's. you know, there's, we're whacking people, there's nudity and sex and all the things that you enjoy on that level. There's all of that there. The comedy is like really, really good. And then you've got like high art wrapped in there. You've got psychological examination. You've got, we're thinking about Hawthorne quotes. We're looking, we're contemplating statues. We're like doing all of that stuff in there. And when you read the way in which so many brilliant people were writing

about the Sopranos at the time, like breaking down every single shot, talking about the cinematography on the show, like it is an art film, like all of that sort of stuff. All of those things can exist together. And that's just like the absolute ideal of what you want from something like this

where everyone can enjoy it on whatever level that they approach the show. And I know that like for some, my understanding is that for some people, some of the dream sequences or this, that, and the other thing was not their cup of tea and they would rather just have a more straightforward show. But I love that all those things are existing

and co-mingling side by side inside of what I watched at least. Yeah, I mean, if the measure of a show is what it brings out in the world, in the audience, in other artists, I don't think there's an argument that this is one of the most influential shows and therefore on the most important and successful shows ever made. Like, you can already see it. And it's such a trip, Joe, watching this through the lens of today and having to kind of push away,

everything that has been influenced by the Sopranos and that feeling of like I have seen this thing before but oh wait I have seen it because 50 other shows have tried to rip off this show yeah then when did you watch the Sopranos and how important was it to you when you watched it let's go back so the show drops in 1999 I think 1999 comes out so I'm in college we don't have HBO at the Carruthers dorm at Louisiana Tech we get together and we get together and we we ask for the ability to buy HBO because there's a show that's so talked about, right? So you get to a point where now you can get HBO as an add-on to the regular basic cable package that you have there at tech. At least that's what we were told. Maybe you could have done it the whole time. I began to watch the show and right away I, the show resonates with me, like right away. And the reason is because my relationship with mafia stuff always been into it

really born and bred on that type of storytelling. But there was a change that had happened. Like, analyzed this had came out not too long before this. Actually comes out like just after. Or just after. Or just after. Or just after. Or like, maybe during the season.

Just at the same time. To the point to where they actually like reference it in the Sopranos. Like they reference the fact that there are two things. where a mobster is going to see a shrink. But both of those shows and movies are interesting is because it's an attempt to humanize the mobster as a regular frail human being and not regular frail mobster.

Like, the mafia had been pulled apart. Giuliani and the rest of the U.S. attorneys had brought all of these guys down. So the question was, since they're no longer masters of the universe, how they are as just citizens of society? Like, how do you reconcile this hyper toxic masculine existence with just like being a dad? Not family is everything like Vito Corleone.

Just regular day in, day out stuff. Your mom gets on your nerves. Your uncle is disappointed in you. How do you do it? And that, to me, for some reason, even at 19, just blew my mind. The episode that we're going to talk about, everything that kind of gets thrown into that gumbo, it was a different way to tell the story of a mafioso and a tension that I hadn't really seen in the telling of that story before.

Right away, it was cooking with gas and it never stopped until the end. I think it's really interesting to think about, like, the mob story as something that had, you know, grown and become. so important inside of like the Coppola sense or the Scorsese sense. And then to your point, Van becomes something of a punchline in the married to the mob sense and then eventually like analyze this, that and the other thing. And the fact that this show was sort of originally pitched to the networks as a kind of more overt comedy starring like Anthony LaPalia. Like that's a version of The Sopranos we could have gotten if Fox decided that that's. That's what they wanted.

You know what I mean? And then, again, Rob Mahoney blinks out of existence in this podcast. It's tough. But, like, that's what people were thinking of when they were thinking of mob stories at the time. Yeah. We had done Goodfellas. We had gotten to the mountaintop. And then we were just sort of parroting the Godfather and Goodfellas into the late 90s.

And then this comes this resurgence. And I think what's so important about it at sort of the tail end of, of, of, of the Clinton era of America is mob stories as the most, um, like least delicate telling of the capitalist American dream. Like this is what capitalism, this is what it is to rise up. This is the immigrant story.

This is what the American dream is. But you have to look at all the actual nastiness that is involved in, as we'll talk about in one of the two episodes that we might talk about today, getting the big house and all the money you could possibly ever want and that sort of thing. I think the reason, like, ultimately the revolutionary idea is splitting that particular baby of we're actually going to do the very serious mob story and the mob comedy at the same time. And Joe, I don't know what your experience was with these first two episodes, but like I had heard the Sopranos is funny. I don't think I realize how funny it was going to be. And like that's, that was always a barrier of entry for me.

It's like, do I want to put on the big serious drama? when I'm looking to unwind at the end of the night. And the idea of that plus the history and the shadow and the number of episodes for this show overall, even knowing its reputation, I always just like wasn't in, I thought I wasn't in the right mood for it. But it turns out I was. And it turns out that I think the humor as a gateway into something that feels very familiar, something that is so understanding of what it is. Like having therapy as the device to let Tony Soprano do the Goodfellas narration is just an ingenious kind of conceit for a

first episode and kind of structural choice that is letting you understand that everyone here involved knows what we're doing. Like we know what world we're playing in. We're going to make all the appropriate references. And we're still going to show you like a bunch of stuff you haven't really seen or felt before. Also, having him go to therapy is right away an indicator that he's not like the Mafio, so as you knew before.

Yes. Now, you're going to learn that throughout the show. You're going to learn all the frailty of Tony Soprano. But the fact that his life has become so overwhelming to him, that he can't deal with it without bringing in some extra help, which of course we all know that therapy is an amazing resource if you feel overwhelmed or if you just want tools in order to stay healthy and proactive about your mental health.

So no down-talking therapy here. But the fact that he's doing it and he's serious about it because he's having panic attacks. Yeah. It blew my mind. And there was a version of, there's a version of the mafioso that we got that came up through the 30s and 40s

and 50s and 60s that these guys were impenetrable. Then they became penetrable. Then we heard them all wiretaps saying stuff that they shouldn't have said. We saw them go to jail. We saw them die of things that happened while they were inside of the... They became human.

And so the mafioso for that time was a modern flawed mafioso that sometimes can't stop his heart from beating. But at the same time, time over the course of the show almost reverts and turns into the classic boss from 65 or 70 or 55 that is untouchable, pure evil and has everyone doing things at his whim just for power. But the version of this show, the version of Tony Suprano that you get when the show starts, almost dashing, right?

Like almost dashing young, still kind of wild-eyed, even at 40 about what the mob is and what is place in it is, is what makes the first season of the show so special. I love what you're bringing up in terms of this like inciting incident because something we've talked about over the course of this series looking at the pilots of these big shows is like a pilot can do two things. It can either drop you into someone's world in the middle of their world and you sort of figure out what's going on or bring you into the world along with another character. There's like an inciting incident, right? Are we joining someone in the middle of their life or are we joining someone as their life is about to change? Are we joining Peggy as she goes to work at the ad firm? Are we joining Walter White as he begins to cook meth? Are we joining everyone on flight of Ocee on AK-15 as they're playing crashes on an island?

You know, like, is there an inciting incident? And the fact that, you know, Peggy going to work at a new organization or Don Draper having his life secrets sort of starting to bubble up is one thing. The small ball but big ball, like inciting incident of this show being a guy goes to therapy. And that being the inciting incident of us coming into this chapter of the show is absolutely intoxicating to me. You know what I mean? Because it's like it's not, it's not a plane crash. It's not we're cooking meth, right? But it's seismic for this world, for this kind of guy.

It's as big as a plane crash. Do you know what I mean? Especially with the way I would say that him going to therapy is like is woven into the plot of the show. And I would say it's like an amplifier for the stakes of the show, right? He is feeling, you know, this is an actual guy who is collapsing at moments where he should not collapse. Something is clearly wrong with him that he wants to address or needs to address.

There's also the very real. thing he's talking about in therapy, which is if anyone knew I was here, I am in mortal peril. And so again, we're just like building the stakes by him doing the thing that he is acknowledging by the end of the pilot that he needs to do. That in itself is intoxicating too, Joe. Like, we are just building on all of these different elements that are feeding the sense of danger and ultimately the stakes are becoming more and more mortal for Tony Soprano, even within the first episode. His relationship with his father is something that the show, dives directly into.

But him comparing himself, he does something at this age, at his age, that I just reflexively did at my age too. Just compare yourself to how tough your fucking dad was. My dad walks in, there's a bee in the fucking living room,

and we're all being kids like dodging the bee. Ha, ha, ha, is a big wasp. A big wasp. And so I'm not, I want you I think that I'm, you know, I'm tough.

And we're all running from the wall. I was having fun. My dad was saying, he goes, what y'all doing? And then he just grabs it and crushes it with his hand. Yeah. And we were like, God, damn. He's like, yeah. He's like, y'all done, fun over?

I played a video game. He walks to the back. And you think that you get to an age and you see your weakness in that. And then you get to a different age and what you see is the strength of your father. And that's cool until you go, wait a minute, am I not that? Right. Did it fail me? Am I not that?

And then that's what Tony's going through. Tony's conversations with Dr. Melfi are interrogating the idea of manhood. He talks about Gary Cooper, the strong silent type. He talks about all of these things that he does not think that he is, that he wishes that not only he were, but that other people were. At the same time, indicting his father and his mother from turning him in. to somebody that needs to take therapy. And so it's, it's, it's, it's, the mafia part of it just on the, becomes on the backside, just another thing that's stressing Tony out.

I think it's so interesting. And I think this is another, again, we're so fresh to the sopranos. So it feels a little presumptuous to me to be like, this is what the show is about. But I think something the show does so well is, you know, something that David Chase has talked about is like, in all of the therapy scenes, they didn't use music cues because they didn't want to guide the viewer into like,

this is a big moment of revelation or anything like that. So there's like no music cues in the therapy scenes. And in dream sequences, the camera doesn't zoom in on anything because once again, as a storyteller, he's not trying to direct you.

He's trying to invite you. This is a collaborative story, right? That in setting it in the world of therapy, whenever Dr. Melfi says, and what do you think that means, David Chase has said, I'm inviting the audience to then ask, what do I think that means?

And so we're all sort of making this story and the show together. And I love that Van, one of my favorite people on the planet, that you're zeroing in on dad stuff when like this is such a mom stuff show. But for you, this is also very much a dad stuff show.

You know what I mean? Because it's a collaborative sort of, you're bringing what is important to you to the table. You are, exactly right. But what I will say the reason why I

hold in on the dad stuff is because Tony becomes Johnny Boyd. Like he his what he really wanted my version of my

interpretation of the show is what he really wanted was somebody to stop him from doing that. And that colors his relationship with AJ and Meadow and the way he's looking at them and what he wants for them.

He really wanted someone to protect him from that world which his mother was incapable of. He gives his dad actually a pass but he realizes he's kind of not the same kind of guy, but he gives his dad a pass and he blames his mother in a way

from not protecting him from becoming his father and junior and everybody else. And then not only does she not do that, I don't want to ruin anything for you guys, but she then directly becomes involved in things regarding that life. And he can never get his arms around that. He has mommy issues for sure. But what he wanted to be was not his father.

And I think that he blamed his mother for not loving him out of that. or protecting him for that life and literally judging him on the same terms that everybody else that was adjacent to that life judged him on. She was the same way. She was like anybody else. I think that's a perfect segue into saying

we will talk a little bit more about the pilot at the end of the episode, but the hooked episode that we have forced Van to agree with us is the episode. I mean, it's right. You guys are right. Is college. which is season one, episode five, college.

When we first floated the idea of this show to build, to random passers-by to whoever, everyone's first response was, oh, like the college episode of the Sopranos, like that this is like the platonic ideal of the hooked concept. So, and I think it really dovetails nicely with what you were just talking about, man, this idea of like when you go from child to parent and what Tony talks about in this episode with Meadow about the way in which his parents didn't encourage him, but the way in which he's trying to encourage her, while also failing to do that perfectly because he's got this other pull on him, which is the other side of his life.

So, season two, episode five, college, written by James Samanos Jr. and David Chase, directed by Alan Coulter. cinematography by Alex Socaroff, who is an incredible cinematographer, went on to direct, was a cinematographer on Game of Thrones episode, Baylor and All-timer, directed some Game of Thrones episodes, really talented dude. This is the one where Tony takes Meadow on a tour of Maine colleges, spots a guy who ride on the mob in the process. Home life and work life slammed together while back of the Zoprano family home.

Carmela tries a bit to slam together with Father Phil while they watch Remains the Day, which is a great movie. Yeah, just two normal pals sitting hip-to-hip watching Remains of the Day. Guzzling red wine. Totally normal stuff. This is fine. Van, I know this is not the episode you wanted to pick, and I will give you an opportunity to talk about the episode you wanted to pick.

But why is this what everyone else considers the clear answer? All right, so I've changed and this is the episode. Okay. It was an intellectual choice. I have to learn to stop putting my favorites and stuff and to be objective. That's my new name. Man, no.

Objective van. What you told me is that you did not want to be irregular deicular in your day. Because it's too easy, right? It is easy. But look, all the passers by were right for a reason. Like, this is a great pick. Yeah.

It's, so many things happen. One, metal learns for certain that her father is in the mafia. Gigantic. So because he's not hiding it from her anymore, that means we are drawn in a little closer. We've finally got the secret identity of Batman. So once you know Batman's secret identity,

which you guys, you can learn in the first comic. But once you know Batman's secret identity, you now have to stop pretending that he's two different people, right? Well, yeah, it's like Both of Vampire Slayer, or any number of other shows where, like, which start with the superhero, none of his friends know his identity, and then slowly over the course of the series,

everyone knows. And Meadow, knowing here, unlocks this huge part of Tony not being able to lie to himself about who is. Right. Exactly. Now, he has to reconcile it rather than just hide it from her. Dr. Melfy, it's learned that Dr. Melfi is a lady,

which Tony, in one of the great unforced errors in television history, lied about before and now Carmela knows the hit that comes at the end of this show is so interesting to me because Tony could have

he could have there's a world where this guy ignores the fact that he saw this dude he easily he ignores the fact that he saw this guy and his life would not change at all like nothing else would change if he just walked away and did not kill this dude

As a matter of fact, I could make an argument that he could send Chris and them back up there and look for the guy and they would still find him. They would still find him. But so many of the decisions that happen in Sopranos are about Tony's impulses. They're not about things that he thinks about. They're about his impulses. And how he's been programmed with those impulses, how therapy is helping him context. visualize them, analyze them, and talk about why they're there. And this show shows, this episode shows the force of that.

It shows that it doesn't matter if I'm on a college trip with my daughter. My impulse to violence in this situation that's been nurtured by my father and my uncle in the lifestyle, that will override sometimes even the safety of my family. And that's the central tension in this entire show. and at the end, when Tony decides to kill and unmask himself to Meadow, his transformation into the guy who's going to be the boss of the soprano family is not complete because still some more satisfied as that, but you see the trajectory of who he actually is.

It's the first time we see him totally clearly. And even then, like, his first instinct when Meadow calls him on this, and I'm, like, I'm just so glad that you have a child character calling their problematic, dad on something in episode five. Like so many shows overplay that hand and string out that plot. We're just confronting it. And his first instinct is like kind of half deflect it. It's first to fully deflect it and like basically throw her under the bus as like

stereotyping him extremely tough. And then to say, oh no, it's just like gambling money. Right. Right. Like this isn't what you think it is. It's kind of dirty, but not as dirty as you think. And it takes basically the full episode for him to overcome that kind of instinctive barrier. And even then he's sort of keeping her at arm's length.

and I think kind of twisting this idea of them having like an honest and truthful relationship as a means to then also give him some plausible deniability. But having all of that is sort of an introduction to the show. And, you know, this is the first, you know, we've done two shows that I have not seen. Lost was the other one and then this. Lost, we covered the pilot, though. And so we were really jumping in from the beginning. I decided to actually honor the prompt and start with this episode.

Oh, you did in reverse. And starting it with her confronting him in the, the car effectively to whether he's in the mafia or not, I think it's like kind of an ingenious side door into this story. That's brilliant. I'm so glad you did that, Rob. You know, I'm committed to process ultimately. Good posture, Mahoney.

Thank you. I think that that is a huge advantage of this episode is that it is self-contained. You could just watch this episode and you understand everything that's going on. You know, a question you like to ask about these hooked episodes is like, is like, is it a typical episode? Absolutely not, right? We're in Maine for more than half of the episode. We're not in New Jersey. Is that not typical? Like, does Tony not work in admissions at like Bowden or something? Bates. We are, you know, Christopher and Dr. Melfy are like literally on the phone. That's as much as they're in this episode. And it's a real three-hander between Carmela,

Tony and Meadow. And I really like what you were saying, Van, and how that's represented in the episode. I was so tense. Even though I knew what choice he was going to make, I was so tense in that moment when Meadow's like, turn that way for Colby. And the camera's like all over the place

and my adrenaline was pumping as he was deciding whether or not to just continue on this college trip with his daughter or chase this guy that he thinks he recognizes. and then he makes the turn and then the fact that she's like, oh, well, this will get us there anyway was like really funny and interesting to me.

And then all the way down into the death scene, his decision to kill this dude is talked about all over the place as a Rubicon that television crossed that forever changed. So my understanding is that HBO saw the script and they're like, that's fine. they saw how it was shot and the way in which Gandalfini is like sweating and spitting and bleeding.

And they were like, no, you can't have your main character do this. He will lose, you'll lose the audience. They won't be able to root for this guy anymore if they watch him do this. And then David Chias puts his foot down and he's like, no, this is a show in terms of like the code of the mafia and Tony's character and honor, he's a worm if he doesn't do this. He has to do this. And so they showed it and the audience stuck with him. And that's why we get Walter White cooking meth and like, you know, doing all the shit

that Walter White does or all this shit that Don Draper does or et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, down the line because Tony Soprano, you know, choked a guy to death in the woodlands of Maine. That's why. You know what I mean? Him choking that guy to death. I mean, that scene is on fire. Like it is so good. And we usually reserve some space to kind of talk about it.

a specific scene. I think that is like by far the standout scene of this episode. And I think it is because it's incorporating so many different things we've been talking about, right? It is everything you just laid out, Joe, in terms of the historical importance of having a main character do terrible things. It is a guy who should be with his daughter off murdering somebody else instead and kind of making that like declarative choice. It's a mafia boss who's kind of like lashing out at what the world has become, right? Like against this guy who turns state's witness and like making his own statement to try to hold on to a world that basically doesn't exist anymore. And it's just a guy who commits murder and then watches the ducks fly by.

And I have to say, even before seeing the pilot, that moment just really hits. Like that kind of grace note at the end of the murder to stop and watch the ducks. Really lets you know what kind of show you're watching. Do you guys remember that movie, funny games? You ever see that? Of course. And I say unfortunately not because it's bad, but because it makes my skin crawl. Yeah.

It's one of the... I know it's not a horror movie, but I don't hear what I'm saying. That'd be scary. That is a horror movie. Yeah. Okay. So the director, Michael Hankees is his name?

What was it? Hanneke. So, not to spoil it, but there's a point in the movie. I'm fucking spoiling. I'm sorry. I'm sick of the putrid, toxic spoiler culture. Spoilers for funny games. Yeah.

Spoilers for funny games right here. There's a point in the movie where the family that's been abducted, either the wife or the husband gets the upper hand and they're able to rest control away from the intruders. And when you first watch the movie, you're like, oh shit, they save themselves. And then all of a sudden, one of the characters picks up the remote and rewinds the movie.

Like, rewinds the movie and avoids that scenario. One of the most interesting comments on his own work that a filmmaker has ever made is saying, is the director said, the writer of director said, at that point you should probably turn a movie off. Yeah. Because you know at that point what's about to happen.

You're just watching these people and their eventual demise. And now there's no chance that they're saved. Some superhuman thing has flown in and made sure that they've been, you're now complicit in what it is that you're doing. It's a communion of sorts. Tony killing that guy at the end was our

communion with Tony Soprano. We no longer had any illusions about who Tony Soprano was. That's it. He killed a dude while he was on a college trip with his daughter and he liked it. Oh, he loved it.

And he liked it. It was something that all us getting up to the ledge of maybe he's not going to do this. Maybe he's going to prioritize. He almost got metal killed. He almost killed metal in the car and And if the old people don't show up at the hotel and that guy shoots, he could kill Tony and Meadow.

And none of that stops Tony because Tony Soprano is exactly who we know he is. But we make the same decision for him that we make for people in our everyday lives. As people, I think it's underrated sometimes at how we choose to look at the best parts of people. It's particularly the people that we know. I choose to remember uncles and people that I know that have done all kinds of terrible things as the guy who teach me how I'll use my left hand on the basketball court

and the guy who told me about girls, you're choosing by your intimacy with someone and the choice that we make to make Tony Soprano into a hero throughout the run of this show is constantly tested by the writing of the show and it gets very hard to do by the end but this was our first test

and we went, you know what? He still loves his doing. daughter. So he's okay. I can still root for him. And I think what's genius about that is that that is baked into the other half of this episode, which is the Carmela storyline, right? Because you get this, you know, I love the Carmella stuff inside of this episode.

And something that has not genuinely, I don't know why I never saw The Sopranos before. I know why I didn't, in 1990s. I was in college and we didn't even have like basic cable. We had no television in my dorm room. So like I didn't know that I could have petitioned them to get us HBO. But we had like no opportunity for this. 15 and 1 is what we called it. 15 channels and you can ask at HBO.

You should have hit me, man. I got it. I should have known. Band finesse that shit. I should have known. So I missed it when it started. And then why did I never watch it in the intervening years? I really could not tell you.

There was nothing. I didn't think like it wasn't for me. or anything like that. I just did not get to it. And then when I started working at The Ringer, it became a problem. But I hadn't watched it. And I was just waiting to be able to podcast about it

because I didn't want to like waste the experience of dipping your toe into something this massive and not be able to like have this conversation about it. This is why you're also now a Patriots fan. Yeah. You know me, Rob. Snoring, gasping during sleep, Feeling fatigued? Ask your doctor about Zepbound, terseptite. The first and only FDA-approved

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Obsession, rated R. Under 17, 9 a minute without parent. Only theaters May 15th, with special engagements in Dolby. One thing I didn't, it didn't stop me from watching it, but one thing I wondered about was how are the women treated in this show? Because I do know that, you know, Edie Falco won an Emmy for this episode. I know that Edie Falco is like revered inside of like the acting spheres. But I also remember in the height of the Skyler White like all this bullshit that Carmela was sometimes like lumped in with these characters who were getting in the way of your fun time with your dude. that did bad shit and the nagging wife who would stop him.

So I was curious, that can sometimes, that is usually a fandom thing and not a show writer thing. And so I was curious how Carmelo would be sort of treated inside of these two episodes that we watched. I love the room that this episode makes for her. I think Tony killing that guy is the moment of the episode. Yes. But her speech about why she is complicit is.

is so stand out to me. And I think her, everything she says about I love him anyway. Yeah. Is what Van is saying is what the show is asking us to do is just being like, we're seeing Tony do this. And we know why he has mud on his shoes and blood on his hands when Meadow asks him about it later. And we're going to love him anyway the way that Carmela does because that's the communion, that's the bargain, that's the complicity that we are entering into.

along with Meadow, along with Carmel. You know, so that Meadow can go to the nicest school so that Carmela can have her big house. But also the emptiness that comes with that for Carmela, right? Like she wanted all of this, but like she's, the closest she's getting to, like, intimacy is sitting hip to hip with a priest who's not ever going to be able to take her to, you know, where one wants someone to take them.

As far as I know, I don't know what happens with Father Phil down the road, but like it does not seem like that, you know, vomiting instead of smooching. It doesn't seem like we're going to get what we want from him. So I love that aspect. Van, what is your sense of, you know, obviously we're trying to avoid spoilers, but like your sense of how women are treating the show or the way the Carmela character is used in general?

So the important thing about the father-filled stuff to me in this episode was that it reinforced that she has a choice. Somebody is going to want Carmela Soprana. I think in a lot of these old-timey movies before somebody is going to walk out the door, you get this speech from this guy going, look at you. Who's going to want you?

I'm the man around here. I'm the fucking guy. I'm this, I'm that. Like, you got the sense after two that Kay was going to be completely in the wilderness without Michael. He was going to take everything from her in the whole nine.

you know, it's fucking Diane Keaton. I get it. In this one, there's a guy that's completely intoxicated with her. Now, he's a weirdo

for a lot of reasons, but he's totally intoxicated with her. There's someone that she has everything in common with. She almost has nothing in common with Tony at this point. Nothing except for their history. Her and this guy

I like to say movies. He loves her cooking. they have, their conversation flows. It's just everything she wants with her husband. Everything she wants with her husband is right there. She's still, even though it looked like it was about to go down, she still is a position in a position to have agency and make a choice to be in her marriage.

That question of why, why does someone who is decent choose this life? Mirrors Tony's why. And that's something that runs throughout the entire show. And we also learn at times that there is a part of Carmela that mirrors Tony directly, that she's kind of a female boss, that she likes status and she enjoys some of these things. And the choice to be with him is one that she struggles with, but one that she has made and actually can't contend with herself for making it.

But this, first of all, two things. Sexual attention with the priest is always good. It's never not worked. It almost always works. It always, because you're thinking to yourself, you've made taking this vial of celibacy. Oh, the way that's shot? Yeah. The wafer?

Very provocative, to say the least. And you know. We said they didn't go through with it, but they kind of went through it. They kind of did. And by the way, this priest who doesn't experience this release, really for everything that They've already energetically had sex. He came over there to have sex with her without touching her, and that is what is happening.

But when it's time for her to get the gratification that she actually wants, which is someone to actually hold her and love her in actual physical human connection, he vomits. To put that side by side with the scene that they're watching from Remains of the Day, where Anthony Hopkins is basically like, trying to not get it. With the near proximity of Emma Thompson.

I love that. Hey, back up. I can't do it. I want you. I want you. I don't want to want you though. I know it's fleabag season too. You love to see it.

It really is. Rob, what did you think of this part of this episode? I thought this half of the episode, it really is like half of the episode. First of all, I was as invested in it and maybe even more so than anything that was happening with Tony and the rat. And so that in itself made me feel really confident in the future of this show, avoiding exactly the kinds of landmines you laid out, Joe. It's always a concern about how is the family part of this story going to be dealt with?

And which of these stories is the side quest, ultimately? And Tony is kind of dealing with that stuff in real time about like choosing his family life versus, you know, his mafia life. But having Carmelho have actual considerations, actual agency, having these stories feel like rich. and it feels like there is not just time spent, but just exceptionally well-written dialogue and ideas and so much to like tangle with, I would say it was just like one of the most, like I just felt so great about the directions the show could go in.

I think the combination of that and the fact that even after everything he does in this episode and the weight of history telling me that I should know better than to like Tony, I still like Tony, means the show kind of has me right where it wants me. You will like him till the end. I don't know how you couldn't. Like there's just something,

I mean, first of all, there's the Gendolfini element. And then there's just like how funny that character can be and how quickly he just completely shape shifts is so fun to watch. But they also fuck you. Like they fuck with your brain with this guy. I don't want to spoil it for you guys, but there is another character in the show

that is, I'm just going to say, in a couple of the seasons, that is mean to an animal. the rage that that like elicits from Tony yeah the rage that that elicits from Tony that because this person has harmed and even as Tony is taking out his frustrations on this person

he says how could you have harmed this beautiful innocent creature he also sometimes for no reason sees his children in somebody and takes it out on mafia people. Really, I think it was the same guy. But he, there's a,

there's this brutal humanity to him where you know that if he had grown up in a different situation, he'd have been a nice guy. That's what comes out. Okay, so Gandalfini is just, is this show what this show is if it's not Gandalfini in this role? No, no way. to remember also, like, so what I knew of Ganalfini before this movie was get Shorty, the character that he plays and Get Shorty, right?

True romance. Yeah, true romance. But like, Get Short. Like, he's so good in Get Shorty. And what he doesn't get Shorty is, like, he's the heavy. He's the hench. But he's, like, cuddly and a little dumb. And it's this whole dichotomy thing that is so,

so good. And visually, this is a supporting character type of guy. This is not a leading man type of guy. This is the hench. This is the muscle. This is the whatever. So to bring Gandalfini into the lead here, to allow him to be as funny as he can be, as charming as he can be, as like king of queen's sitcom daddy as he can be at the end of this episode. And he's like, Carmela! You know, like, that's just like the Kevin Jane's like ascendant inside of him. So like all of that's in here. And then inside of this episode, college, you know, when I was trying to pick what the scene of this episode was, it's hard not to pick the death scene.

It's hard not to pick Carmelah's like, you know, confession essentially. Yes. Or the communion, honestly. Either one could fly. Or the communion. But when he's talking to Meadow at the restaurant about liking history, you know what I mean? and like whether or not his parents, like, what if his parents had supported him going to college more? What if he had sort of become a history teacher?

Like, what is Tony Soprano history teacher? Like, what is that? So that, like, again, a road not taken inside of an episode where we saw him, you know, do that whole shtick. And to go back to what Van was talking about at the beginning of this idea of, like, Tony as a character who wishes his parents had been the kind of parent that he's trying to be for Meadow now. which is I'm so proud of you going to college. This is very important. Your studies, your academics. And that's the like capitalist American dream immigrant story.

My kids are going to have it better than I did. But he's saying my kids are going to have it better than I did. And again, this might all fall apart as the seasons go on. It sounds like it might. But like, and a different life than I. Like he does not want Meadow to go into the life that he has. You know what I mean? They don't.

But the people that he tried to make them into, he couldn't do it. The people that he tried to make them into, he couldn't do it because he didn't have the tools. Yeah. But that's another great moment inside of that scene in the restaurant when she confesses to him that she took speed, like, emphetamines to get through the SITs and finals and stuff like that, right? And he says, Jesus, right under my nose, you'd think I, you'd know. and she says, no, dad, you won't. Like, you won't know that I did this and you won't know what I'm going to do in the future, right?

This is a high-leverged scene because... Oh. But he asked her something in that scene. I remember when I first watched it. Oh, where'd you get it? Yeah. Yeah. And she fucking got it from Chris.

And so, and if, in fact, Tony would have known that. Woof. And so when he's saying that to her, I'm like, oh, my God, is this, are we about to see the end of Maltesanti here? Not to spoil that. I had to say it. It's too juicy. And so she got it from, she got it from Chris. She got it from Chris because Adriano was like, hey, she's going to go down and get it from the blacks on Jefferson Avenue.

I don't know if they said blacks. They might have said some other words. I don't know. I can't remember now. but it um and look it's a as a black watcher of the sopranos there's a communion that we took as well so let's not dwell on it let's move on but but um but yeah so like even in that stuff i'll name another scene this the car chase scene yeah where he is putting his life and his daughter's life at risk but he's still trying to dad it up

Yeah. He's still, that's because you're talking to me. He's still trying to maintain the mask of, hey, it's not me driving 100 miles an hour to find somebody that I must kill. I'm just messing around here. The whole tension of the exorcism of Tony in this episode and of Carmela and kind of of meadow, kind of an exorcism which she talks about taking the pills. All of that stuff that's happening in this episode, fascinating stuff. And I think like the alchemy of so much of what we're talking about is like you have that Ashuk's dad played by the supporting actor type, portraying like a character who is nostalgic

for a time that he himself did not experience. It's just like his vision of what men were and what the mafia was. All of that like rolls together, I think is such an appealing way. There's no way for Rob and I to watch this without knowing certain things because the Sopranos was like too big. And I'm not saying I actually think of avoided most major spoilers. except for I think when I posted about this on social, some people shot some spoilers on me,

but who knows if they're all true? I don't know. I'm choosing to believe that some of them are fake. But I know that Meadow is a character on this show. But there is a moment inside of this episode when Carmela is talking about her children, the risk she's put her children in growing up around this, and she's like, I can't help but feel like this is all going to come back on me,

or back on them. And right in close proximity to that, you've got this guy who has Meadow in his sights with a gun at the motel. And so, you know, even though I knew Meadow was in the show, I was like, if I were watching this in 1999, would I be really worried that Meadow is about to die right now? Because Carmelis said this and Tony's actions are leading to this. Turns out David Chase is a very smart storyteller. And whatever those ramifications are and surely they're coming, they're more subtle than her

just getting shot inside of episode five. And it's a slower roll than let's just put this all on the table at episode five of season one. You know what I mean? I think part of the reason you can do that with the Sopranos too, and like part of the reason that both of these episodes and mob stories just hit is there is never a dull moment. And there will always be more opportunities to put these characters in danger.

And so it doesn't feel like a cop out that they're in the sights and nothing happens. And you also don't feel like this is going to be the only time. that something like this will come up. Like, I would imagine Tony's family will be, if not directly under fire, endangered in all kinds of ways over the life of this show. But because there's always a guy to see, because there's always drugs to get, because there's always guns to move or a thing to do, it's like the machinery of these stories just lends itself to all that danger,

all the time, to everyone who's even remotely in the orbit of it. And I think ultimately, when you have characters who are even the least bit interesting, it works. And when you have characters who are this interesting, I mean, it just fucking sings. No one needs us to say in 2025 that the Sopranos is good, but it's really fucking good. Hot take, it's a good show. You know, the interesting about the danger is throughout the run of the show, the kids are never really in danger from mafia-style crime retribution stuff. In that physical direct violence sort of way.

Meadow being in the crosshairs, there's some stuff that happens, but they're never really in that danger. the show does a great job of crafting danger and stakes for each individual character. Like Meadow getting into college or her being able to go to the school that she wants to go to, that becomes something that's like actually that you're actually invested into, that you see Carmela get invested to. AJ, as you guys watch more of the show, you're going to hear a lot of stuff about the kids on the show. You will. Okay.

Lots of stuff about AJ, lots of about Meadow, and they weren't always the most popular characters. Sure. Sure. The show. However,

You can even see between the pilot and five, like Meadow feels like a completely different person. Like, there's already, like, dramatic recalibration happening. As they get older,

their proximity to their parents will be, when I say proximity, I mean, their issues with their parents will be so normal. there will be it will be the same shit

that we all have with our parents hey yo why don't hang out with me no more hey yo shape up why are you getting

in trouble in school hey yo like what what it is who do you want to be we don't want you to do this we think you should be doing this

like what are you like them challenging the ethics of their parents which we all had to do one day you have to sit down you have to be like

I don't want to watch good the bad and ugly I think young guns is better that's ridiculous It's not bad. But at the same time,

I had to challenge my dad on the fact that I didn't want to watch that movie for 15th time. Let me watch Amelia Estabez. You didn't want your equivalent of going to get TN scones. Right, right. Exactly. See, and so that entire deal, but that's their thing.

Now, they ended up getting trouble and there's some stuff, but their thing is actually the same shit that kids, but it's just another thing for Tony. Yeah. It's just another thing for Tony. It's a thing where I have to dodge people. taking shots at me. I have to make backhanded deals. There's New York coming for me. There's all these things. And I have to come home to you getting expelled out of school.

I don't need this shit. Right. That ends up being the thing that humanizes him. That those are the things that you can relate to. Because other than that, he fucks everything that he sees. He kills whoever he has to. He's a thief. He's a liar. He's all of that stuff. But then there's this normal part of the show that you can just glom onto

that continuously draws you back in. You're doing a great job selling this show. Thank you so much, fan, for your service. Something we like to do on this show is just to remember what time period these episodes debuted in. So this debuted 1999. if you had to pick the most 1999 thing about the episode college,

what would you say it is? Rob, do you have any answer for this? I think it's got to be the pay phones. That's what I was going to say. No texting. No texting, Christopher. Five years later, and like the wire is a tribute to this, everyone's on a burner.

Like, it's just we're seeing. There's pay phones to the wire. I mean, there's pay phones too, but it's like you can see and feel the technology about to change in a lot of, I mean, like, this is. It happens on the wire. They literally go rip the pay phones out on the wire and there's no more pay phones.

Yeah. Everything in these first episodes of the Sopranos is like backgrounded by a bunch of shit in a changing world that is making people feel isolated or this way or that. But like that one is I think pretty glaring. I will say the most 2025 thing or maybe the most 2024 thing, like finding out Tony is a Roman Empire guy. Like he's, he would fit right in in any era.

Throughout the entire show. It's almost like they got that from the Sopranos. Throughout the entire show, he's obsessed. One of the dopest lines of the show. I don't want to ruin it for you. But he's obsessed with the fact that old Italy Roman Empire. He sits down and does stuff that I do now. Sometimes I just sit down on YouTube and I watch this was the battle of whatever,

1917. And the shit will be three hours and I'm watching the whole thing, right? Throughout the entire show, he's that. What Van's not telling you is all of those battles took place in Westero. And he's talking about his Game of Thrones lore video addiction. I just two-hour Robert Rebellion video. I'm halfway through it. I've watched a bunch of different ones.

I know. That's too much. That is a cry for help. No, no, no. That's a lot, guys. That's a lot. He's enriching himself. I fuck with it.

It's fantastic stuff. A 1999 thing about the show. So the pay phones are definitely one. Oh, quality of DVD player. He comes over to watch the movie and she goes, I know that you love that DVD player. No, my DVD player. My DVD player. If you know what I'm saying.

Put the CD in. Put it in. In a slot. Maybe. Spinning. Make some circles. And so, come on, we're all adults here, guys. And so just that, the fact that it's like, hey, I got, I happen to have remains of the day if you want to watch it.

Well, guess what? Right now, we all got remains of the day. And we can watch it. We can watch it whatever we want. That's true. You know, Carmela, she's a real physical media person. Oh, yeah. She's committed to it.

One other thing I want to say about Father Phil. that adds a layer, an extra layer of goodness to the flea bag, forbidden fruit sort of thing, is the fact that inside of this story, he's a dead man if he fucks Carmela, right? Like, there's that in addition to, like, not just betraying your vows and all that, which is no small thing, but also the danger of the mob wife, despite the fact that Tony can fuck whoever he wants, the danger of the mob wife, you know, stepping out on him and what would happen if he's Father Phil if that were to happen. Again, there's just like so much happening.

Again, there are those stakes happening. There's the sort of like dueling confidants for Carmelo with Father Phil and with Tony and his therapist. And the way that they are kind of superimposing and projecting their own insecurities on those other relationships. Like there's so much to unpack. And I think that they do like pretty quickly and efficiently, but also leave a lot in the same way that any real life relationship and especially a marriage would leave a lot.

There's just always stuff on the table. table and for a show like this to already be tapping into so many different like primal things and thematic things and character beats where it's like I'm two episodes in episodes one and five which were not meant to be watched in sequence and I feel like I have a pretty good idea of at least who these people are at this stage in the story of course some of them will change some of them won't but they do a great job of setting them up in contrast to another and to be honest like I think college weirdly enough by completely separating Tony and Carmela like counterintuitively because normally you want to see that relationship dynamic,

but having Carmela talk about Tony and having Tony not really think about or talk about Carmela at all in his way, I think you're really clarifying a lot about these characters. Anything else you want to say about college? No, not necessarily. Just that, like, in my estimation, going back and watching it again for the show,

there were so many things that were as compelling, if not more compelling, than whether or not Tony was going to get to this guy and kill him. I would say that over time, the Carmela father, Phil, that storyline, when I watch it this time, I somehow was more connected to that.

This is the first time. I somehow saw that had me on the edge of my sea. Maybe because I spent so much time with the other parts of it, but that for some reason worked more on me now as I've gotten older. Maybe also because you're a pop culture podcaster now and you're like, I want a podcast about Willem Defoe in the last presentation of Christ. They were straight up doing a podcast in the middle of this episode. It was incredible.

Would subscribe. But I also would watch that show. Like I would just watch the Carmella Father Phil show. I think that is a testament to the weight that it can carry in an episode like this, that it just feels self-sustained. In terms of the pilot, the Sopranos written and directed by David Chase, again, sort of written for Fox and CBS in a different sort of era. Obviously, there are things that happened that episode, including like Chris shooting a guy in the back of the head while he's doing Coke or whatever. That are very HBO.

But Tony himself, despite, you know, he runs someone down. but like Tony himself does not get his hands dirty in a way that is more network-minded than HBO-minded. And it was made in 1997, the pilot, versus the show premieres in 1999. So you can tell that by how old the kids are. Right. Definitely. Big jump between the pilot and the rest of the show. And then it's so funny because, you know, Bill brought this up when we were talking about Task the other day.

And Bob and I were talking about one of our pet peeves sometimes in Presti's television is therapy as storytelling exposition device. Right. And also inside of this miniseries, the hooked miniseries, we've been talking about voiceover as lazy pilot exposition. But the truth is, it's just like poorly executed versus that because the way it seems here. Clearly it can be done. Yeah. The therapy here and then the voiceover here and the difference between what Tony is saying in therapy and what we're seeing. happen is comedy and also informing us about the world.

Her interjections inside of therapy of like, listen, this is what I'm obliged to tell you about what legally I'm beholden, you know, helps put some scaffolding around that in a way that is really funny and keeps us on our feet in terms of like, what is Tony saying and what do we believe happened immediately inside of that episode? All of this stuff works, like it's a great pilot. It's a tremendous pilot. It's really good. And the fact that all of that is happening to Lorraine Bracco is just like, you know,

an extra bit of like icing on the cake. Van. It works perfectly as prologged to the rest of the series. It's definitely narratively unlike the rest of it. They make some direct choices. They change some stuff, right? After the pilot. They like recast some, like Father Phil gets recast.

Yeah. So it. But. Tony telling the story of the current state of his life, to me, I'm not as big of an anti-voiceover person, but despite what's said in adaptation. But Tony telling the story of his life

and where he is in his voice works perfectly. I'm glad they didn't do it for the rest of the season because it would have robbed us of a lot of the dramatic tension that the show ends up creating. But for the first season, just kind of get us into the world, it works perfectly.

It gets you up to speed really well. And ultimately, like, for the purposes of our exercise, there is no good reason you should not just start with this pilot because it is excellent. Like, it's really, really great. Yeah.

I think the only reason that I would argue, like, maybe try something else, whether it's college or otherwise, is because it does feel because of that narration and that structure, like a touch more conventional. Like, it feels like something I have seen before, and that's from a 2025 lens, for sure. College does not feel like something I've seen before. Like, I've seen the field trip episode.

I've seen the father-daughter stuff, sure. But, like, mob boss takes his kid to visit colleges is such a new wrapping on the things that I think I'm familiar with. That it has, like, a different sheen to it, I would say, than overall the structure and the ideas and the crux of the first episode. There's this thing that happens when you, and honestly it's been a while for me since this happened just because of the nature of my job for as long as I've been doing it, it has been my job to be on top of all of these things as they come out. To hear, it's good to be in something from the ground floor and I came too late for that. I know, but lately I've been getting a feeling that I came at the end. The best is over.

is such a famous line and sentiment. And I think I knew it was from the Sopranos, but I'm not sure I knew knew it was from the Sopranos. So to hear something that iconic, that gets referenced again and again when people talk about these feelings of enwee that we all cyclically go through in our lives or in the American culture, whatever it is,

to hear it just dropped in naturally to the flow of an episode was like, a record scratch, you know, as far back as I can remember, I've always wanted to be a gangster. Like, as big as that sort of moment for me watching this episode. It was so, again, I'm going to use the word intoxicating. Like, I just really felt like I was like plugged back into something that was so important. And you would think that after that, that the death of the mafia would have been a recurring theme on the show. never directly

it's looming yes it's a specter that things are kind of falling off or weren't the way they used to be but it's almost never directly engaged in it

I mean there are scenes in this show where all the mobsers are watching their daughters at a soccer game like it's it's never that's the show yeah Like, you know, that's the show. But setting it up that way, just, it helps you contextualize Tony's existential dread.

It's not that he is in his midlife crisis. He's wondering if his entire way of life is bullshit. But isn't that part of the midlife crisis? It's like he is in his midlife crisis and thus the whole everything. did I have had that actually feeling my like whole life You mean like how I feel about podcasting? Did I get it on the ground floor? Yeah.

Am I at the end? That's how I feel about like I was going to say about our bookstores. That's how I felt about like all the things that I've done. I'm like journalism. I'm like. Our past lives in the magazine industry. Journalism's over, you know? Like it's just it's a it's a very common feeling here at the end of all things.

But I think that Tony and the way the Gandalfini plays it. And the way inside of this episode, you get all of that. Plus, just the vision of him wading into the swimming pool in his robe, letting his robe get wet. He doesn't care in order to feed some baby ducks is like all in the mix here. And we're in New Jersey, which is not where we're used to, you know, these kinds of stories being told. And so I, it's, guys, it's a good show. It's a good show. Guess what?

I mean, a dude getting obsessed with the baby ducks in his backyard was incredibly relatable content. I would love that kind of problem in my life like them flying away. But portraying him in that way of someone who would break down in tears, not knowing how to process these baby ducks, who's having these crazy dreams about his dick falling off because he unscrewed his belly button the wrong way. And I have to say, that was yet another moment where I realized, like, how dialed in I was on the show is I was just transfixed, listening to him described. a dream. And listening to a person describe a dream is not a pleasant experience

for me generally and I would guess not for most people but here it's just like impossible to look away and it is impossible to look away

because of everything that he's been unpacked. You know I remember about that scene? Yeah. How different my reaction to the story was

from Melfies. I'm like man, what's wrong with this guy Melfi? What kind of bird? Little things like that ground

but there's nothing that Tony can come in there and say, he does get her a little bit. But there's nothing that Tony can come in there and say that she will not respond to clinically. Everyone else in his life responds to either his strength or his vulnerability. She just responds to him. And that becomes a challenge to him as well. Because she challenges him.

She tells him things he doesn't want to hear. She gives him hard truths. she reorients his mind around the way he thinks things are and the way that they really should be. And that is a pushpool in the show about whether or not Tony will be able to handle therapy that always exists as well. I thought that moment in particular

when they're talking about the symbolism of the waterfowl in his dream. And he's guessing, oh, like this, because it represents the ducks and the ducks to me represent my fear of like my family getting hurt. hurt. I don't necessarily believe that. That's what he's actually afraid of. It feels like the kind of thing that in that moment feels nice to say. But the fact that it's just kind of hanging in the air, whether that's true or not hanging in the air, whether that's something to push or not, I have zero doubt that those kinds of ideas are going to be interrogated. That Tony is a character in therapy and without who's just going to be kind of pushed in these ways as terms of like, what do you actually believe? And are those things even remotely true within the world? of this show.

One thing I want to say about the experience of watching The Sopranos for the first time in 2025 is, and I'm going to hype up what we do. I could listen to Van, who has watched the whole series and thought about it for years and years. I could listen to him talk about this show forever. Amen. The fact that there is a wealth of thoughtful commentary, I was dipping a bit into, Alan Sepumwell and Matt Zillarsight's is the Sopranos Sessions book, which is an incredible read,

trying to dodge spoilers and keep it to just them talking about these episodes. But incredible informative read. That exists. I watched a little bit of a Peter Bogdanovich interview with David Chase in the Sopranos kitchen. The caliber of coverage and thought and analysis that exists around this show is just an extra. experience on top of just the experience of watching the show. And all of that is waiting for you. And you can opt in or opt out.

You can watch things however you want to watch it. It's always my preference to watch things while listening to people that I respect and admire talk about it. And do I align with them or do I disagree with them and how it deepens your understanding? That's true of a lot of the shows that we covered here, Breaking Bad, Mad Men, lost and not to get like too much on a soapbox but um you know allan sepalmall just lost his job at at rolling stone the tv critics across the board are are getting let go because we are losing this art form of the of the people who know this industry inside and out and uh have access to the people who make it and can give you the depth of history behind the choices that are made here

What did David Shea's work on before he worked on the Sopranos? What came before the Sopranos that informed the Sopranos? All of that context is so interesting. And you need it. And so it's why I rail against binge culture. It's why I think week to week is so important. Why I think is important to take TV seriously. And why I'm so excited for all the Sopranos, you know, podcasts and books and whatever

that I can get my hands on in order to, enrich the experience. And getting to talk to you guys about it is a huge part of that for me. I think one of the most enjoyable parts about doing this whole process, Joe, with these hooked shows, which have all been kind of like all-timer shows. They feel because of all that supplementary material and because of the distance from when they originally aired, like there is a mythological quality to the Sopranos. That is something like, as you're saying, you could just spend an endless amount of time trying to get your arms around, not just like in the moment theorizing, but the content. textualizing and deep dives and like attempts to grasp at a piece of art. And the fact that something like that can not just exist in the moment but continue to exist

in the form of those books and that criticism and podcast and everything else, like it's still there. And I think part of the trouble with the binge culture is not just that it exists, but it's like separating your mind from the idea of this is the thing I do to unwind at night from this is the thing that I can continue to engage in in all these other ways, regardless of when that writing or that analysis came out. Like that stuff is there to binge too for any. who cares to do it. And I hope people do that with shows that they're digging back into.

Like, I know that's something that I love doing after finishing a show especially is like digging back into the stuff that people were processing in real time. I worry that they don't, though. Yeah. I mean, when the binge model first came out, it was so novel that I was like, oh, interesting. And then I realized something that has to accompany television. Well, two things. detail and ritual.

Binge culture robs you of detail because it's too much content at once. So whereas Game of Thrones will come on and then we would legitimately on Twitter for the next couple of days, three, four days talk about one or two scenes. You can't do that when something is really, when you binge it too much

because there's so much thrown at you at one time. You don't know how to really contextualize to talk about it. You're trying to talk about the entire thing because you got it all. And then just ritual, man, we watching it together. When I think about watching TV when I was a kid, I watched cartoons with my sister.

I watch Westerns and Bananza and stuff like that with my dad. And then I watched Dynasty with my mom. And, you know, well, what was the one with the lady and she got pregnant and everybody freaked out? She was a lawyer. No, she wasn't a lawyer. She was on TV. Remember this show?

My mom used to love the show. The lady, she got pregnant on the show, and the whole world flipped out, and the vice president was mad at her. What is this? Murphy Brown. Like Murphy Brown. Like Murphy Brown.

You say ritual. When I think about that aspect of it, I think about community. It's the same thing. Like ritual, like it's Sunday night we're going to watch the Sopranos, but also I'm going to watch it with these people. And you binge culture absolutely obliterates that

because we're all watching it. different paces. And then that thing that you referenced earlier, Van, the sort of like hyper, vigilant, toxic spoiler culture. Like, you can spoil the Supranas for me. It's my fault that I haven't watched it until 2025. I'm not that stressed about it. We're past the statute of limitations.

But also, like, you don't have to be an asshole. I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to do it. But you know what? We're not going to do it in community with you guys because there's things that I want you to be amazed by. Right. And so that idea of sharing story together at the same time is so.

such an important part of television because you can sit in a movie theater and watch a movie with someone, but like you've got weeks or months. This is why we loved covering the pit or severance or whatever it is. Or even as I've talked about in multiple podcasts now,

the summer I turned pretty. That was a week to week release and everyone lost their marbles over it. I just watched a video where Jennifer Lawrence was talking about her obsession with the summer I turned pretty. But it's such a rarity to have that community and that monoculture and it really is important. And so that's something that I think is precious about television that I want to see us like all

reembrace about television. Well, and it's what eventizes it too, whether it's the sense of community, whether it's that weight and that anticipation for the next episode as opposed to binging it. There's also something from the ritual standpoint about watching a show with actual opening credits. Like every show now, it's like it's either too much or not enough. There's so many shows that are just kind of like, here's five seconds of an image and here's the title card and now we're going to the show.

I understand that, especially in a binging era, but with something like the Sopranos, I want 90 seconds. I want to, I want to kind of ease into the world and understand like the mental space that this show wants me to be in. And that's a complicated thing. And like some shows do it better than others with those themes. But this was one of where I was really. really appreciative.

Just like, let's just vibe check for a minute. Do you know who's the villain behind that? The skip intro button. It really is. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I had to do it for Peacemaker this year, though. All right, nah. Y'all dancing a little too whimsical.

It's a little too whimsical. I just get to the shit. All right, anything else you want to say about the Sopranos, a massive piece of pop culture. Ah, nah. The last thing I'll say before Rob was, like, just, I'm so, I'm so happy for you guys. I don't, a lot of times when people are just watching something, you go, I wish I was you.

I don't, because it would rob me. me of so many things that happened in the last 26 years. But I do envy you. Envy you for getting able to experience all of this stuff for the first time. That's fucking amazing. I can't wait to do it. Needless to say, I'm very hooked on this show. We're just going to have to find time for everything we're trying to cover Joe and also

watching loss and also watching this. I have one knit to pick as far as the college episode itself. The guy that Tony is chasing after, Fabian Petulio, aka Fred Peters, just about the worst witness protection disguise I've ever seen. Like he's just like fully Clark kented. I'm just going to put on the glasses and assume that I'm safe here. You're not that far away. Like you're still in New England.

That's the fucking thing. That's my thing. Why don't you put some distance? You know what I'm saying? Little distance. Did a haircut, you know? If you're in Tacoma, you're never going to run into Tony. Not going to see him.

Guess what? Come out to the coast. Yeah. Go out there, man. Try Boise. He just wanted to, he wanted to dip in the jersey in AC every now and again. It's true. So he, that's what he did.

his attachments got him killed. You know what witness protection movie I love is? My Blue Heaven. That's my favorite one. It's not even close. I love My Blue Heaven. The movie I contend right now, the movie is erased in Ringer Culture.

It is one of the best mob movies ever made. It's so good. It's fantastic. I love it. Steve Martin in the Steve Martin'sness of all time. Love that movie. Big accent work, big hair work.

Just a lot is going on. Big fan. All right. Well, that has been our hooked miniseries. That has been the Sopranos finale. We have now seen it. We will be back for task coverage, for slow horses coverage, and a bunch of other stuff that's coming. Van, anything I want to say before you go?

Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you, Van. No problem. I had a lot of fun, guys. Appreciate it. All right. Bye. This episode is brought to you by Netflix's remarkably bright creatures.

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