The Prestige TV Podcast - The ‘Veronica Mars’ Episode That Got Us Hooked

Episode Date: September 3, 2025

Hooked continues! This time, Jo and Rob take us back to 2005 to make the case for Kristen Bell’s star-making series, ‘Veronica Mars’. 00:00  Intro 05:14  Rob’s elevator pitch 08:45  The Episode: ‘Mars v. Mars’ 17:57  Guest/recurring stars 24:42  Episode MVP 26:20  A scene that embodies the show 37:25  How this episode sets up the series 40:16  The pilot episode 50:43  **SPOILERS** Email us! [e-mail] Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of ‘The Prestige TV Podcast’ and so much more! Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney  Producers: Kai Grady and Donnie Beacham Jr. Video supervision: Chris Thomas Additional Production Support: Justin Sayles Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Terms apply. Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna. I'm Rob Mojone. We're here with another installment of Hooked, our end of summer, early fall, little mini-series that we have decided to do about some of our favorite seasons of television. Today we're talking about Veronica Mars. Have you heard of it? Have you heard of it?

Listen, we did some huge, massive ringer core shows in Breaking Bad and Mad Men. And then it was like two for y'all, one for us. This is a very Joe and Rob coded show. So that is why we're here to talk about Veronica bars. Step very carefully, because this is a big show to a certain subset of people, which includes us, Joe. This is as big as it gets, certainly for teenage Rob and really just for Rob in general. Excellent. If you have not listened to any of these hooked episodes, here's what we do.

We're here to talk to you about the episode that is not necessarily the pilot of a TV show. that you would show to someone, a friend, a loved one, etc., to get them hooked into a show you like. Because sometimes the pilot isn't the episode that's going to do it. No. So we're here to talk to you about some alternative options, though we might have an exception

that proves the rule coming up on this series sometime soon. What do you want to say about the premise of the show? Rob, anything else before we get into specifics of today? The premise of Hooked or the premise of Veronica Mars. Oh, no. Of Hooked. Did I cover it?

Did I do it? I think you covered it. And I will say in this particular case, very resonant for me, because I would say throughout my lifetime to this point, this is the show I have tried to pitch to the most people. I cannot push Veronica Mars up people's cue to the point that they will actually even give it a chance. And so I think part of our exercise today is, look, if they were going to watch the pilot, they would have done it already. What is the alternative way in we can give them to become Veronica Mars fans, to become proper marshmallows? We have a slightly tougher assignment today because Rob and I both own this show on DVD because that's the kind of people we are. This is not available to stream anywhere for free right now.

I was devastated. Yeah. Lulu, how dare you? I know. They have the new new season, which we'll talk about it a second. But you can buy episodes on your streaming favorite streaming platform, which will be. choice, but you cannot just like stream it for free. So that's going to be a barrier of entry for some people. But I do want to, before we get into sort of the civics of Veronica Mars, I want to

mention one email we got from a listener sort of about this concept. We've gotten some feedback on our madmen and our breaking bad episodes of people who vehemently disagree with us or agree with us. It's a, it's a sort of touchy subject. It is. Well, and Joe, where did these people email us? Prestige TV at Spotify.com, I believe, is where they could find us. Always, perpetually. We are there. You know, I just want to keep the lines open. You know, the lines of communication, especially in the host season.

This is very important. And we've gotten a lot of people who are really eager for us to cover a show that we actually do plan to cover before the end of this little new series. So this email comes from listener Sam, who has emailed me for years across various shows and always has something very clever to say. But he wrote, I feel like. we have so many, you got to get to blank conversations about shows today, because pilots are so strictly written to be sold and have to do so much legwork. They rarely get to be the kind of show they want to settle into. Sometimes they are diamonds and perfectly lay out the energy direction of a show, Mad Men. Oftentimes, they're Wikipedia articles for everything you need to know

about the show in order for it to get loose, weird, and have fun later. Sam said us, that's anyway before we did our Mad Men episode, so that's fine. But listen, I think this idea of this is a Wikipedia article for what the premise of the show is, could not better describe the pilot of Veronica Mars. So we are not going to be picking the pilot today. We're going to picking a later episode. Veronica Mars ran on UPED from 2004, 2005. May it rest in power. And then it became the CW and Veronica Mars wrapped up its third season in 2006. It was a kickstart crowdfunded into a 2014 film. If I can raise my hand, I was among them.

Me too. I helped to kickstart this movie. I still have my honorary t-shirt as such. Do you? Does it say like I'm a marshmallow? What does it say on it? No, it just has a nice little stylish Veronica Mars logo of her and her car with her camera. It's lovely.

Love it. And then it was rebooted on Hulu in 2019 for an eight episode season four so controversial that it's almost impossible to Google literally anything about the show. without hitting a wall of articles about the season four finale. Yes. Which we'll talk about in our Uber spoiler section at the end of this podcast here today. Rob Mahoney, you already teased that this is an important show to teenage Rob. Do you want to give us sort of the log line?

What is Veronica Mars about and what did it mean to you when it first came on? I mean, Veronica Mars is a genuinely amazing detective show that happens to largely take place at a high school. And because of that, look, the Nancy Drew looms large. And we're just kind of trying to overcome the barrier to end. entry. But if you can get past that and we would encourage you to do it, and that's what we're here to do today, it is as sharply written and stylized and well-acted, and I think one of the

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365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. Monica Myers is how insane so much of this cast is in retrospect and the people, the talent they are able to bring into this little UPN show. It just turns into something. that is so funny and so emotionally resonant. And honestly, like, actually seeks to tackle some very real societal problems and societal difficulties. And it's like, it has a lot to say about class. It has a lot to say about high school.

It's a lot to say about Kristen Bell being a star. And a lot of the reason we live in our current Kristen Bell ruled climate is because of Veronica Mars. This show is created by Rob Thomas, not that Rob Thomas. No relation. Who also did Party Down. He was a writer on Dawson's Creek. He did Eye Zombie in which they had the other Rob Thomas guest star.

This is a show that you and I are huge Buffy Vampire Slayer fans. This is like in every way, sort of an honorary continuation of the Buffy Vampire Slayer Legacy. It was originally meant to be a YAA book that Rob Thomas then turned into a TV show. Originally he was going to do a young boy, like a high school boy who was the son. of the sheriff. He was pitching around. He wanted this to be an FX show. This is what we constantly hear at HBO show, showtime show. He brought it to UPN

and they said, hey, man, we're looking for female empowerment to go with our recently acquired Balthy Vampire Slayer. He's like, have I got a show for you? It's about a teenage girl. And immediately then it became, I don't know, what the, instead of Ronnie Mars

game, Veronica Mars. And that is the show. What's so crazy about that is, this would be an unrecognito. recognizable show if you gender swap Veronica Mars. Like it's a totally different show. It's like obviously so many of the plot threads would read totally differently. But her, I mean, it's so crucial in the text, not unlike Buffy, of this like, what do you expect of a teenage girl? And the idea of being constantly underestimated because she is a teenage girl is central to her ability to then be a really good private detective, even though she's like 16 years old.

Even though this started as a YA book and became a UPN and NCW show, I would not call this a show for teenagers, even though teenage Rob loved it. I loved it as a just out of my teenage years person, a few years out of my teenage years. But the writing is so sharp and so clever. And the central relationship between the character of Keith Mars, who was the former disgraced town sheriff, now private investigator, and his daughter Veronica, is, I would say not the number one most important relationship on the show,

but it is the number two, and it is very, very important. And it's just as you said, like the fact that Amanda Seifred is here as like a background guest star throughout season one of Veronica Mars is completely wild. And the in the enjoyment that you get out of the guests, the many guest stars who show up on this show is is part of the fun. We pick the episode we picked today. Season one, episode 14, Mars v. Mars has Adam Scott. It does. Leighton Meester. A gossip girl pre-union.

Yeah, pre-union. And Christina Lacken from step by step, which is maybe not as important to other people, but here it is. Here she is. And this is a story by Rob Thomas, teleplay by Jed Sidel and Diane Ruggiero, and directed by Marcos Siego. And it aired February 15, 2005. Yikes on that date. Just big time, yikes. Spoiler warning up through episode 14, I should say.

And in a second, I'm going to make Rob Defend why we picked an episode so late in the season. This is the one where Adam Scott plays a charismatic teacher accused by Leiden Meester of having sex with a student and potentially worse owning black silk bed sheets. It's not worse. That's okay. And this is also the one where Veronica is very wrong until she's right. Yeah. And quite crucially for our conversation today, the one where Logan and Veronica really start working together for the first time to find out what happened on Logan's mom, Lynn Eccles, played by future Real Housewife at Beverly Hills, Lisa Runa.

So that is what we're talking about today. Rob Mahoney, 14 episodes into season one. That's like two seasons nowadays, two seasons of a given show. How do you defend that we picked an episode so late in the season? I would say a couple things. One, look, this is a show that does have a good pilot. It is a little bit of a Wikipedia entry of a pilot, but it does a decent enough job of setting up all of the major kind of players and mysteries

in a pretty economical fashion. I have a lot of respect for it. But because it's taking place earlier, and you alluded to one of the most crucial relationships on the show, it doesn't have a lot of Logan as we come to know Logan in it. Yeah. And that is Veronica Mars. And so it's like, for me, look, there are three reasons why this show works

the way it does. In other hands, it could have been an absolute disaster. If it was a little less well-written, if it was a little less well-acted, like, it could have been a joke. Could have been an absolute joke of a show. The reason it is what it is, I think overall, Kristen Bell, as Veronica Mars, like, that performance has to work. Enrico Colentoni as Keith Mars, lights out so funny, so endearing, their relationship as father and daughter critical to the show. And Jason Doring, as Logan, that triumvirate is what elevates this from run-of-the-mill teen show that would be watched and forgotten and maybe memeified in 20 years to one that like you can revisit over and over and over and over and it will always feel like an enriching experience. I'm not sure I'm making my case for this not being a teenage show to say the most important thing about this show is the central love story between two teenage characters. Yes.

However, it is a chemistry between two actors so. irresistible that it is something that they didn't intend. They cast Jason Doring to play sort of like a one and done kind of guy. And this is this might be what hooked winds up being, which is like the way in which TV, the best of TV can be a reactive medium. Right. And so, and especially in this era when it was 22 episode season, you have a 22 episode season, they start shooting it and they're like, uh-oh, Logan and Veronica, that's firecrackers. And it was episode, I think they say in interviews episode four. that they figured that out, essentially.

And so they're like, okay, guys, we're going to take a hard pivot off of our intended path. All these other would-be boyfriends, bench them. I'm so sorry to you, Duncan Kane. We're going to take a hard right turn and we're going to figure this out. We're going to pitch it at the end of the season, though, because we want to draw it out a bit. But that is where we're headed. And this is the first episode where these two characters are working together. Yes.

And it is just undeniably crucial to show. It is part of what makes season one, I think, one of the most perfect seasons of television. And then I think season two is really strong. And then things are shaky and shakier from there, in my opinion. But the thing about Logan and Veronica Mars, Logan Eccles and Veronica Mars is it a, when you're a TV creator and you find something that is this magical, it is so hard. to know how to use it correctly. Yeah. And they did their best to sort of like draw it out or will they won't.

They find all these different ways in which they could keep that tension going. And then sort of like similar to famously shows like cheers or moonlighting, like once they didn't know what to do with it, the show kind of stalls out. And not only that, the relationship winds up swallowing basically kind of the rest. It becomes like a monster to a certain degree so that when you get to the part where we're kickstarting a movie or when you get to the part where we're kickstarting a movie or when you get to the season four reboot they don't on Hulu, all anyone wants to talk about

is Logan and Veronica. That's true. And that's, you know, it's something that I am like definitely guilty of, but it's something that I'm like, it's a it's definitely a double-edged sword when you find something that is this sort of like TV heroin and then you O'D and are strung out on it, you know what I mean?

That frankly like burns that hot, that it is all consuming in that way. And it's very dangerous not just from a plotting perspective, but for character. Any character who you try to make the next boyfriend or the next girlfriend or just kind of put in that orbit ends up looking really lame by comparison, ends up being hated by comparison. You just have this gravitational pull of the audience that then is, it does make it hard to do everything else. I think Veronica Mars overall, as you said, like still has a lot of great success operating within that relationship and somewhat in the shadow of it at times. But it's not

perfect. And there are the times where you really feel the absences of that relationship. And especially early in the season, when Logan is drawn before that kind of chemistry starts clicking as a little bit more of just like a high school asshole. The absence of damaged, wounded puppy dog, Logan, also crucial. And that's, I think, especially what you get in Mars versus Mars is you're getting a sense of this very wounded person who then, okay, you're peeling back the asshole layers. You're peeling back like the tough guy, popular kid into something that more closely resembles. an actual person. I know our assignment here is to not make it harder for people to get into or enjoy Veronica Mars, but I will say as far as like things you have to come back from, and this is an archetype

that always works for me. It works for me on Lost. It works for me on Bothy Vampire Slayer. Like it works for me on all these shows, these like blonde assholes who show up and then you have to be like, oh, I see what you're doing here. You're a character on an arc. I understand. I love a character on an arc.

However, orchestrating bum fights is one of the hardest things the character has had to come back for. And that is something that Logan Eccles had to grapple with in season one. Not his finest moment, to say the least. But honestly, I think what Veronica Mars really shines is there are a lot of characters who are doing deeply unlikable things, who are enchanted with an incredible amount of wealth and privilege because of their families and just are squandering it or immune. don't have a sense of where they are or belong in the world and are just like operating like impulsive teenagers doing impulsive teenager things. And the show has a lot of latitude for that, including for Veronica, who as you laid out

in terms of our picking this episode, most crucially, is extremely wrong. And I think that's another reason why this episode works so well is like if we're going to set up our precocious teen detective who is incredibly charismatic and incredibly likable, you also have to allow yourself room to understand that she, is going to make the kinds of mistakes that teenagers will make. But what's great about a character like Veronica Mars, because this is a show that is always sort of wanted to go as dark as it can possibly go inside of a UPNCW shell and then sort of figuring that out.

But it does and it doesn't in that like Veronica Mars is a character, even as she then goes to college and then we meet her as an adult later in the series, like is always fucking up and making the wrong choices. And that is part of her appeal. So it's not just like teenage fumbling. It's like she is just an inherently, I charge after the thing I think is right kind of character to my detriment again and again.

And that is honestly fascinating to watch, especially inside of what Kristen Bell does with that character. Because you're always rooting for her, even though she is quite often making the wrong decisions, you know. But so you have that fully drawn character. in Veronica, who's just as good of a central character as we've seen, really, of many shows over the last 25 years or so. You have these core relationships. I would say, you know, her and Keith and her and Logan in particular, really anchoring it and anchoring the episode that we've chosen today.

And then I think the guest star, recurring star element is another reason why I wanted to do Mars versus Mars specific. Like the Adam Scott element here as a first-time viewer is like, whoa, Adam Scott's on this show. And he comes in with an absolute bang as the cool, I say heavy air quotes, cool fun teacher doing his exercise in history class, almost instantly being accused of having an inappropriate relationship with a student. It's like, bam, we are going to very intense places, very serious places. There's a plot accelerant, and it's with people that you know. And I think if you run through the list of the people who just like appeared in an Adam Scott-like capacity on Veronica Mars, I would like to read for you some of these names, Joe. I'm ready for the Oscar winner. I mean, you mentioned Adam Scott Leenmeister here.

Amanda Seafreid, obviously. She's recurring. She has a secret, a big one. I'm sure you've heard about it. Jessica Chastain. Taylor Sheridan, who now also runs the world. Tessa Thompson, Paul Rudd, Anthony Anderson, Max Greenfield, Army Hammer, Kristen Ritter, and Aaron Paul, you know, just breaking bat all over the place.

Alison Hanigan, Michael Sarah, Alia Shawcat, Paris Hilton, very famously appears in an early episode. Kristen Cavalari, Jonathan Taylor Thomas, Jane Lynch, Diana Agron. our beloved charisma carpenter. A lot happening in the guest starring and returning cast of Veronica Marse. The Paraselton episode, which is episode two, which I did rewatch for prep here, is truly wild. Like, I was watching episode one. I was like, let's let it run. I was like, wow, Paris, I remember. Yes. I distinctly remember the Parasilton episode when it like aired where we were as a nation when Parasilton was a guest star on Veronica Mars. Where were we as a nation, Joe? Oh, it's tough. It was a really tough time for us as a culture.

lot of like juicy couture velour sweatsuits on display here. I think Adam Scott specifically who like shows up he had done party down with Rob Thomas obviously so he's like in the family had yet to do parks and recreation is rocking some real early aughts hair in this episode is perfect casting for this. Oh yeah. Because this is before he was like lovable Ben Wyatt and Adam Scott has always done this thing where he's played with like lovability and darkness and all this or stuff like this. And so this idea that Veronica Mars in 2005, an episode where Veronica Mars is just like immediately on the side of the of the dude, despite being herself, someone who was sexually assaulted and that is a main plot line of the season. But she's immediately like, I'm not going to listen to

this young woman who's accusing this dude. I am on his side. Her dad has to be the one that like this young woman deserves me listen to, and she's like, nope, she's a gossip and we don't have to listen to her. I'm team. The teacher didn't do it until the McJagger and the black silk sheets enter the conversation. I can't believe, I mean, of all the improbable things that happened this episode, and an episode television I truly enjoy, imagine you're Adam Scott, and you have just by the skin of your teeth been absolved of something you definitely did do.

So sorry, Adam Scott's character, Mr. Brooks in this show. Mr. Brooks. Okay. Mr. Brooks has been absolved of this thing that he definitely did do. Mm-hmm. And the teenage girl who helped you get away Scott-free comes over to your house and then you try to seduce her, try to do the thing that you did that got you in trouble in the first place.

No, no patience, no windows. here just like immediately bam let's put on the rolling stones and get the black so she's down. Straight to side two. No hesitation, no shame. I mean, the hubris of this exact kind of guy. And I think Adam Scott's portrayal

of somebody who kind of like always has a very innocuous excuse for everything. Every piece of evidence is love it against him. It's oh, it was this. Oh, it was reactionary parents. Oh, it was that. Like it against like a very recognizable figure. And one that I think as you're watching it,

one thing I was blown away by revisiting this episode is like it's pretty clear as a viewer fairly quickly what seems to be happening, which is Veronica being very wrong. Like Keith is presenting compelling evidence a quarter of the way through the episode that's not quite smoking gun, but like there are serious holes in this guy's story.

And the episode is playing out in parallel. This is another reason why I think it's a great choice in terms of creating the sort of entry point for people for Veronica Mars is it's this story about Mr. Brooks and this student. it's this story about Logan and his mom. And I think Logan and Veronica on sort of parallel journeys of coming to accept something they really don't want to believe is true.

And I think the way that those are played in parallel while also here's some Lily Kane murder stuff. Here's what's going on with Duncan stuff. There's so many mysteries being juggled at the same time. And yet the central stuff never feels like it's getting short shrift. Like you still feel the push and pull of everything that's going on with Veronica and Keith. Something that they talked about a lot in interviews in terms of crafting season two is that Chris and Bell is in almost every single scene of season one of Veronica Mars. And that's true. And when you look at this story, which has an ABC plot, right? The Mr. Brooks sexual misconduct plot. You've got the Logan looking for his mom plot. And then you've got the Lily Kane murder mystery plot, which is burbling underneath the whole season. A, B, C plots all have Veronica at the center of them.

And in the pilot, which we will talk about in a second in terms of like why we didn't pick it, has ABCD plots. It's a lot happening. All featuring Veronica Mars at the center of it. So like this is something that the show learns like we cannot exhaust our young actress to this degree in future seasons. In terms of like, is this a typical episode? Yes, I would say so. it is a like the main the A plot is

you know something happening at the school to a student that is classic ironic Mars. In terms of the characters represented here as you already mentioned like you know Logan is heavily involved here Keith is heavily involved here because it's this episode is brought to by

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You're here. But are you here here? You go to Hawaii in your head all the time. during meetings in the car Hawaii is on the mind but when you're ready to go there's Expedia the one place you go to go places

flights hotels vacation homes cars you can save when you bundle or book as you go and still save so what are you waiting for Expedia the one place you go to go places members only savings vary R's v Mars Keith is on one side Veronica's on the other so there's that

the gang's all here except for Mac but she was not aiming main character in season one and Dick and Beaver. All not main characters. She's not in the pilot either. She is like it kind of on rewatching season one is sort of surprising to me actually how little Mac is used because she is such an important to me character going forward. And to the internet, you know?

Yeah, absolutely. The net, as she would probably call it. Do you have an episode, the honorary Bill Simmons MVP who won the episode trophy, who would you give it to? It's Keith Mars. Yeah. He's extremely right. He's on it.

The girl deserves to be heard. The girl deserves to be heard. He is on it. We really can't say enough about this performance and this character. Because yet, again, it's just like one of those things where the show does not function without him in that capacity. And I think the pilot also does a very good job of setting up Keith as being like very funny. And like you already get a sense of his relationship with Veronica, but not as effectively as you can over the course of a full season. It's just, it's not all there yet, but the warmth is there.

I would say that his line in the pilot, which is tonight we die in like the lower middle class to which we aspire, is one of my favorite Veronica Mars line. It's very good. I mean, the repetition of who's your daddy is also very good. Like, honestly, every Keith Mar's line is a banger and a winner. And his own arc throughout the course of the show in this season, as you said, a disgrace sheriff who's been run out of that job and run into. all kinds of infamy as a result of trying to do his job and sometimes failing and sometimes succeeding, it could anchor its own show. And so it's always great to feel like with a show like Veronica Mars. It's like, yes, we are spending so much time at Neptune High. But there's this whole

world of stuff happening in the background. And sometimes that world involves the police department. Sometimes it involves like high rise condominium. Sometimes it involves Joe, you and I are deep, neck deep in motorcycle gang culture lately. And it's huge in Veronica Mars as well. The PCHers are very important. In terms of like picking a scene that and a scene from this episode talking about how it embodies a show, I have to pick a Veronica and Logan scene just because of everything we said about that. And something I wanted to add to that conversation is to say it's not just that TV itself can be a receptive medium. It's not just a reactive medium. It's not just that TV is a reactive medium, especially inside of a 22 episode season. But Rob Thomas himself. And interviews has talked about how plugged in he was. You know, this comes out in 2005. Television Without Pity, the very important TV recap and TV message more website. Genuinely.

Really starts going 2002. And he talked about how he would read it religiously that he was like in an interview I was watching. He would say, I was such a slut for it, that I would. read the message board reactions when the East Coast, when it would drop on the East Coast so that by the time it aired here in California on the West Coast, I already knew how everyone felt about the episode. So this is someone who's just like in deep in television without pity culture. This is a time when showrunners would just sort of like hop on the television without

pity message boards. It was just like a real pivot point in terms of like the power of the fandom to directly interact with the creators. And so I would say the Logan and Veronica stuff, which comes out of not just something that the writers were observing, but something that viewers were observing as well as a undeniable thing, dovetails into what we get in this episode as we get Veronica and Logan on a case. There's like, you know, fun banter with them and the police station Logan loses his temper. That's very iconic and classic. But I would say again, this is the bum fight guy. You know, Like his temperament is what it is.

When he comes back between, sort of between, uh, we're on the job scenes, there's a, he comes into Mars investigation. Yes. Sort of a little contrite for losing his temper. But he comes in swinging with sort of like an STG joke, um, says he avoids buildings with stained glass. They banter about tabloids. Um, you know, she's like.

He's like, this is what I'm paying for. She's like, I didn't know. I didn't realize you were paying for this, right? And he says, I mean, we're not exchanging friendship bracelets. And she says, I'll stop braiding. Right? So they're on this, like, tentative edge of something. Yeah.

But it's just like constant back and forth between these characters. That is very, like, Buffy Vampire Slayer Whedon-esque in its nature. But I think that sort of tentative, what are we, are we friends, or is this just a job? And the fact that he's trying to figure out what happened to his mom, his mom has, like, allegedly killed herself by jumping off a bridge and he says, no way that can't be true. Meanwhile, another side plot of this very busy season of television is Veronica Mars trying to figure out what's going on with her mom. And so it's just like a very, it's a, it's a, they gave Logan a story that would be a key inside of Veronica Mars's sympathies, despite all the shit that he does at the beginning of this season. and it works really, really well here. For her and for us.

You know, I think a lot of it, too, like, you know, Logan may not like a stained glass window, but the stained glass of Mars Investigations, the, like, dancing lights off of the pool outside of Veronica and Keith's apartment that kind of pouring through the windows. Like, these are, they have to reuse the same locations over and over and over.

Neptune High gets a ton of play. Mars Investigations gets a ton of play. And yet you bring it some life for scenes like that with the way you dress it up. And just by being a little bit inventive with those sorts of trappings. I think Veronica Mars does that consistently all across the board. It's like how do we take something very worn in and familiar? How do we take this like asshole guy like very sharp teenage girl? How do we make that pairing feel different and new? Now the actors are bringing all that chemistry that as you mentioned was undeniable and irrepressible. But there's also just the way that they're deployed in the show. And I think a lot of that comes through here in terms of putting Logan through the paces emotionally of having to confront his mother's. potential suicide over and over and over with every new shred of evidence that is saying maybe she did in fact commit suicide. And like seeing that version of that guy who in the

actual pilot is mocking Veronica for her own mother's alcoholism, be worn down by the process is just like that is what you make TV for. Like for those sorts of like slow like pounding the rock gradations of change. Like that's what it's all about. That's what long form storytelling is about absolutely um i do want to mention really quickly we haven't mentioned he's barely in this episode but weevil a very important you mentioned the biker gangs i just want to say his line in this episode when logan he almost stole he almost won the who won the episode with this one line he lose a puka shell when logan storms out of the cafe is just like a top tier look he lose a puka shell is a top tier commentary on this character you

were either there to understand the pucashells or you weren't. And if you're, if you're too young to understand the, I say literal chokehold that the puka shells had on people, I don't pity you. I would say specifically the Logan Ecles type. A real Logan X. But honestly, a Duncan Kane type as well. Really, really the whole milieu, I think. All the O-Niners. Yeah. Do you have a scene that you want to nominate that you feel like sort of typifies the series? Yeah. I mean, if you're hitting Logan, Veronica, I got to hit Veronica and Keith. And for me, it is the ink splatter coming out of the cracked safe. Establishing Veronica and Keith as, like, for one,

Veronica is exactly the kind of person who would be smart enough to know because of everything her dad has taught her. Someone's going to write down the combination to basically anything, somewhere within range of that thing. And Keith is smart enough to know that he taught her that and that she will look for it and has established this elaborate bit just as a means to teach her a lesson on something that she should already be picking up. on and further kind of entrenching us in the fact that Veronica is so deeply wrong about Mr.

Brooks. Like, she has just been told all this information that should sway her. She goes to the safe anyway, trying to crack it, trying to get inside this girl who has accused Mr. Brooks's diary, instead gets, you know, just like ink splattered all over her. And yet still wants to continue trading notes, still wants to try to prove Mr. Brooks innocent. And I think the fact that Veronica is that wrong. and that irrepressible at the same time is part of what makes that character so great. And the fact that Keith just wants to like warn her but also teach her a lesson with a bit,

great dad, just great dadding. Keith has got some great dadding and some not so great dadding. I would say inside of this episode, a thing that I'm missing in this episode is a scene where Veronica really, really reckons with how wrong she was and how she was unwilling to listen to like a young woman, even though like Carrie Bishop is covering for Susan Knight. and there's all these hoops and she does sort of, she sort of apologizes to Carrie Bishop and Carrie's like, Fat Lotta Good, that does me now.

Yes. She sort of apologizes as Susan Knight a little bit while pressuring her to report on the case, blah, blah. And when she sort of apologizes to Keith, which she doesn't really, he says, if I were in trouble, I would want you on my side. Which is just like a very gentle, kind thing to say to your daughter who has been royally fucking up for her. many days in a row here.

All right. I will say too, Leiden Meester, I think is quite good in this episode. Oh, yeah. She's great. And all of this again,

pre-Gossip Girl. So we're not even coded except by just Leighten Meester's general disposition to read her as like, oh, this is like a, you know, again,

pardon the just direct rip, but like kind of a gossipy bitch. Yeah. But like, plays this really cleanly, really straight in a way that turns out to be like quite sympathetic,

obviously given the circumstances. But I think it's like a a pretty good guest-starring performance from her as well. I really agree. What is the most 2005 thing about this episode? I have so many candidates. Fouca shells aside. There is a line about that there's a jungle tribe that worships Donald Trump's hair.

That's a line in this episode. We're just going to throw that out there. Visually speaking, I do think for Veronica Mars overall, in terms of the way the show is shot, the very like washed out, blown out blue filter flashback. extremely early 2000 stuff that we just we just don't make TV like that anymore. Should we kind of OD on in the first episode? Oh, yeah. If you would pick one color to represent Veronica Mars,

what color would you pick? I'm trying to reach for it. What do you have? I can't tell if I'm being influenced by the CW logo, but I really do think it's that lime green, which was like so distinctive of the era. the color of my iMac at the time. Yes.

It's the color of Veronica has like stained glass on her bedroom window that is that lime green. That lime green just like pops up all over the place. I will say the phones in general. Yep. I was watching this episode and someone came in while I was watching it and they were aware of Veronica Maris but they thought it was a more recent show until they like get out the sidekicks or whatever it is like somewhere halfway through the episode. They're like, oh my God, when did this take place? I also thought it was a more recent show until I looked into the dead expanse of time.

I was like, whoa, this has been a minute. It's been a minute. There's a weakest link reference in this episode. And it's from somebody who's supposedly cool. Very cool. Again, supposedly. A kid rock reference. And I will say for the last 10 minutes of the episode, Veronica, Chris and Bell is wearing the world's skinniest scarf, which is.

the kissing cousin to the pukeshell necklace. So that's what I would say is the most 2005 thing about this episode. The fashion of Veronica Mars is what it is. I'm glad that by this point in the season, we have gotten away from the pilot era Kristen Bell haircut or Veronica Marr's haircut, which was not her best look. They've settled into something, but it is still inescapably mid-2000s. There's still like a lot of chokers, a lot of vests, a lot of like weird plaid pants.

There's a lot of argile. A lot of argile. A lot of argile. The note I wrote about her haircut in the pilot is it looks like she had her haircut by an angry lawnmower that was listening to Dirty by Christine Aicular, Dirty with a lot of ours in it. Okay. How does this episode set up the rest of the series? I mean, I just would say the Logan and Veronica of it all, obviously, Veronica chasing down in correct leads is just going to be a hallmark of her entire life. Carrie Bishop, we should say, comes, not played by Leighton Meester, comes back in the Veronica Mars movie as Susan Knight.

So, you know, Carrie Bishop could have been a big deal. Like, they wish they could have had Leighton Meester. I know it by that point. A lot for Carrie Bishop. Absolutely. Yeah. What else would you say it sets up for the rest of the series? I think it's just those key relationships mostly.

Like the early stages of Veronica Mars in season one are so much more driven by Veronica operating an individual case, chasing other leads again with other supporting cast members. The one person we haven't really talked about who is not represented here. just in much volume is Wallace. He's in the episode but not really in the episode. That's a shame as far as giving you a fair representation of what the show is and who Veronica's key cast members around her, like what the actual ensemble looks like. But the core representations are all there. I would say not just Logan and Veronica, not just Veronica and Keith, Veronica and Neptune

and like the broader kind of high school ecosystem is obviously something really important to understand. I think this episode establishes that stuff as well. well as any of them do. The other thing that I had forgotten this episode ends with an able Kuntz button, right, where Veronica goes to visit this guy who's in jail for Lily Kane's murder. I forgot how hard they stepped on the hand of the electric gas with able Kuntz. It's to the point of even almost doing a Clarice Starling accent. Accent, yeah. There's a lot happening in the show. This is another thing, though. It's like, if you are looking for television

and entertainments that are naturalistic in origin and make you feel like, oh, this is how real people talk. This is not the show for you. This is a show where an entire gaggle of high school girls know every word to don't stand so close to me. I did write that down. How did all those old nine are girls know every word? Every single word.

And that's like that's just what the show is. And we're going to have like line by line references to the outsiders. You know, it's just like there's just going to be things like that that happen and are really enjoyable and are kind of feeding into the feel of the show. But look, it's a gum shoe detective show more than it is a high school show. And it has that sort of like brick superimposed trapping of genre on setting, like the film brick that I think works so well here too. Wow.

Just a couple of you referenced Looper on the Alien Earth podcast. Now you're here with Brick. You're in your Ryan Johnson Joseph Gordon-Leviner. There are worse things to be than a Ryan Johnson shill. I'm happy to participate. I will say there's a Brothers Bloom reference coming up. up on our Prestige TV episode this weekend on the first episode of tasks. So stay tuned for that. Okay. In terms of the pilot, one thing we should reference, if you go ahead, if you're like,

Rob and Joanna love the show, I've never watched it for. I'll go ahead and buy it a season of it on the streaming platform of my choice. Well, not just that. I'm seeing you can buy season one on eBay for $5. I bet you can get it for even cheaper than that, to be honest with you. And this is what we would advise because the DVD pilot is different from the pilot that streams online. There is a cold open that I think is kind of crucial for setting the tone that was cut from the original airing and it does not exist on the on the streaming version of the episode either. So in discussing the pilot, we should say the cold open that existed on the version that you and I watched is Veronica on a stakeout at the Camelot Motel.

Yes. She's talking about how she's never going to get married. She's talking about how sleazy. All these, you know, people are here having their hookups at the motel. She's got her calculus book there on the car seat next to her long lens camera. Very cheeky. Very cheeky. But what Rob Thomas talked about is he was like, I was making a high school show. And the network said it has to start. If it's a high school show, it has to start at the high school. So instead we get cut to the first scene after the credits. Veronica rolling up to the high school

and she has a voiceover where she's like some kids work at Taco Bell I'm a private detective so like everything that that cold open establishes with his context becomes like voiceover you know so I'm just I'm advocating

if you still own a DVD player hunt down the Veronica Mart DVDs for a couple bucks on eBay you won't regret it I promise the UPN executives were not doing us any in the battle against pluck. You know, it's like, it's, it's real tough when you set it up that way. But again, if you just show Veronica in action, even with- I can't believe you let Van infect your mind with his pluck agenda.

I really can't. I don't think, generally speaking, I have much more of an appetite for it than Van does, but this is a very real thing. Like, people are going to have a somewhat allergic response to just the trappings and the setting of this show. And if you can get through that, and I think one easy way to do it is show Veronica of being something more than just an average teenager, all of a sudden, now you're cooking with something.

Now you're seeing her, and I think also most crucially, in terms of that cold open, like somebody who can handle herself. You know, she's a do-gooder sometimes. She's a troublemaker at other times, but she's somebody who, like, you can understand her being thrown into some pretty extreme situations, and she can kind of find her way out

with the help of a dog and a taser. I will say that the way in which this pilot episode, episode abuses the flashback and the voiceover is quite extraordinary on rewatch. Again, I do like this pilot. It is, it very deftly weaves a Logan plot, a weevil plot, a cliff plot, you know, all these things together and also a sheriff lamb plot. Everything sort of like comes in together in the most satisfying little braid you ever did see. And the PCHers, like everything Wallace, et cetera, et cetera, is all woven together in sort of like one triumphant knocking over the dominoes moment for Veronica bars.

I will say, I do think Veronica would have an easier time in life if she didn't show up to things to gloat. She does it a couple times in the pilot. And I'm like, you could just execute your little schemes without cheekily finger gunning at the people that you have screwed over. But who would she be if she did? You're talking about a fundamentally different character, you know? Like if she's not there to say like, this is my over the moon face, like what show are we even watching? The tone of all of these voiceovers is essentially, yep, that's me that you wondered how I got here. And again, it's trying to tell us a lot about Veronica's best friend who was murdered, how her father lost his job, where her mother is, this sexual assault that happened to her.

it's just how her social status changed, all these various things. It's just trying to lift a lot in the pilot. It's a lot to try to take care of. I do have an incredible amount of admiration for that. Like how much it is endeavoring to put forth in front of us. And you alluded to the characters, even just establishing like Lamb, for example, pretty clearly in a very limited amount of screen time, something that's very hard to do in a pilot, even an extended one. And so the fact that they're able to cover that much ground is great. I find the pilot to be the kind of episode that, like, as I am watching it now, having seen Veronica Mars, I have a lot of affection for that pilot.

And I'm like, man, I just love this show. But as putting myself in the shoes or the seat of a first time viewer, it's like, this is a lot that you're just kind of hurling at me and expecting me to not just like get my bearings, but understand kind of the plotting through lines of what this episode is about. I think the only reason this worked in a way that it shouldn't be. Because now if you show this episode, if you show this season of someone, let's say you don't get all the way to episode 14. But you're like, okay, hang with me for the pilot. Okay, now we got to get through a Paracilton episode. It's kind of like episode four is sort of like when you can be like, okay, are you here with me? But like, I just think it's like the fact that they have Kristen Bell who will later make a fortune just doing cheeky voiceover work in Gossip Girl.

is what saves the pilot for being an absolute train wreck because she can she reads the flashback you know even when it is something as like as devastating as the sexual assault of the party morning after scene with this just momentum that that keeps you going but it but it is I think a tough sell for people who have never experienced Veronica Mars when I was watching a bunch of episodes to sort of prep for this uh the person who wandered in and was like oh wow those phones or sure are old, sort of just like got hooked and sat down and was like sort of watching it. And they were like, okay, I get it. It's fun to watch her do her thing.

It is. That is. Veronica Mars. It is fun to watch her do her thing. It's really good. And again, to watch like within that Kristen Bell do her thing as you're setting up with the voiceover. Like there are just some performances and some shows where it's like, holy shit, the star power

of this person that, you know, found might be a little extreme. But like Kristen Bell was not holding down roles like this before Veronica Mars. it was very much like a put her in a slightly different light. Deadwood, I love her appearance on Deadwood. And it plays into some of the sort of like ingenue appearance of naivety that she has leveraged in almost every six, like all of her great roles since then. Like there is a way that Kristen Bell looks and plays against type that I think makes

her so dynamic as a performer. But a lot of kind of her getting more serious dramatic role starts here. And I think what's so interesting about the way it is all unfolded, is like, even though she and Logan had that chemistry, like the same has not been true for Jason Doring. Like, he has not had the same kind of arc for her as her. Like, even just like somebody who was kind of disappeared accepting the Veronica Mars reboot, which he came back for.

I feel like it's been like a curse for him almost. Maybe. I don't know. I will say in terms of like iconic moments in this pilot, you're a marshmallow Veronica Mars. Yeah. is what the fandom eventually is called marshmallows. Like that's eventually what the Veronica Mars fandom.

So that comes from this, obviously. But Keith Mars, tonight we died in like the lower middle class, which we aspire is from this episode, very important. And you mentioned the outsiders. That be cool soda pop line, which she says to Wallace after he mentions the outsiders. I think I thought that was an outsider's line. I say that all the time.

Wait, is that not an outsider's line? I'm not gonna like, I also thought it was just a straight of outsiders line. Soda Pop is a character from the outsiders, but if you Google B-Cool Soda-Pop, you will get Veronica Mars. It's not from the outsiders. But I say that all the time if like, if like a dog is sort of like being antsy, whatever, I'll be like, be cool Soda-pop. Like, it's just a thing that I say that I got from Veronica Mars that I thought I got from the outsiders for a long time. So that's the way in which pop culture referential writer's rooms will screw you. sometimes.

Especially with stuff like, I mean, Veronica Mars is so good at it in terms of the little turns of phrase that just wormed their way into your brain and never quite leave you. And it's like there are funny shows, they're well-written shows, they're really dynamic and interesting shows that just don't have that kind of stick. You remember the character, you remember the plot line. Maybe you remember your emotional reaction to a thing.

But this is just one of those shows where the writing alone will become like a part of your life as you watch it. Yeah. Anything else you want to say about the pilot before we get into sort of like deep, scary spoiler territory. I think we covered most of it. I mean, we haven't covered this part specifically, but the opening theme, the Dandy Warholz,

lights out from minute one. Just like, okay, we got it. You know, there's so... I felt like I've been subject to a lot of really shitty opening themes. Or just like really like thoughtless. Like, okay, here's a placeholder that we never quite got around to putting something else in for. This is perfect. It's so good.

It introduced me to the Danny Warholz, which is a great band. What a gift. And they show up in a later episode, right? I believe so. There's like a karaoke night where Christbell sings. Again, in the Buffy vein. It's just like you just got to have the band on at some point.

Yeah, just invite Nervirder to come on. Anyway, yes, which I think you don't get the theme song in the pilot. So that's another way in which it is really missing something here. Anything else you want to say? I think we covered it. I think the pilot overall still a worthy enough place to start. But as I said, I've had trouble just getting people to watch this show. And if the way to do it is by hooking Adam Scott or a guest star on and pulling people in through the side door, so be it.

Let's do it. Clever. Very clever. All right. I want to get into big time spoiler section because it helps make our point in a way that I feel disinclined to spoil people on. So this is your warning. We're very serious about this warning. If you have not seen this show and you're not.

not convinced yet. One, you're wrong. You like Veronica are thinking you're interpreting the evidence here and you are interpreting incorrectly. I need you to leave and think about what you've done and reconsider your life choices. Hopefully watch Veronica Mars, but at minimum, if you're not seen Veronica Mars, don't listen to this section. We will be back on Sunday with Bill to cover the first episode of Task, a new HBO series that absolutely rules. So please come back and listen to that and we'll be back with another hooked episode on Lost next week. I'm really excited about. So that's little like tease come back please before we get into the spoilers to really give everyone

time to dry the like soapy water off your hands and press stop or pause or whatever you need to do on here. Okay. In season four, Veronica Mars. You've shown a lot of restraint. Thank you. I'm actually, I'm not

as twisted up about this as other people are because like I don't know, when a reboot happens, I'm just sort of like well, any extra time is extra time and that is what it is. At the end of the eight episodes of the fourth season of Veronica Mars. Yes.

Veronica and Logan get married. And then that same day, he gets blown up and is killed. Yep. And the fandom was so mad about this. The fandom that like sparked back to life with the Kickstarter for the movie. Absolutely.

And just like was really living. I actually didn't really love that movie. I felt like it was too fan servicey and very product placement. It's not very effective, no. I don't think it's, It's great. But I do think that they did some good stuff, I think, was season four.

And I think the idea of wanting to return to Veronica as an adult, having, you know, lived through the things that she's lived through was a good idea. Kristen Bell was interested in living in the world of this character. They killed Logan. I understand why. Yep. Because, again, that relationship just sort of swallowed the show. you could not give Veronica another love interest because, you know, our guy Piz can really attest to that. Like, everyone will hate. You're telling me off mic, Joe, that you thought Piz was

like the one true pairing for Veronica. Don't try to entrap me in your lives, Rob Mahoney. I'm just saying. You mentioned it. But poor Piz. Chris Lowell, a real champ showed up for the movie is great. It's kind of great in the movie. Like, you can't put Veronica with anyone. else. Am I misremembering? Is he working at this American life? Yes, he is. I think Ira Glass is in it, yeah. Is in the movie. Yeah. That sounds right for Piz. I think I just, I understand that they felt like they had written themselves to do a corner. I just have never seen a fandom turn on a creator. They were so mad. I mean, end of Game of Thrones maybe comp, honestly, inside of this fandom. I have never seen anyone as mad as the Veronica Mars fan was

that Logan Eccles was killed off at the end of season four. And then they had planned to make more seasons and they just didn't because the hue and cry was so loud. And genuinely, I was just trying to Google, like, get interviews of Rob Thomas from season one. And I was putting in all these parameters in my search term. And all, I mean, first of all, Google's kind of broken because AI is stupid and wrong. But also just like, I, the absolute avalanche of articles and interviews about this pop culture event that I was like, wow, I knew people were mad.

I just didn't know that it was this deep. And also on like the, I was like, you know, putter around the Veronica Mars Reddit boards. And a bunch of people are like, the fandom just died after they did this. And I was, I mean, it's stunning. So it just really underlines the argument that you were making that the Logan and Veronica relationship, which starts to get its legs under it inside of Mars New Mars is the show. It kind of is the show. That said, those people were big mad about Logan dying in season four.

I was big mad at them being big mad because I really like season four. And I really like the idea of a clean slate, Veronica moving, like. Poker face, but making Veronica Mars, that's what I was hoping for. Oh, my God. Like the potential for that with this character, I think would have been incredible. And I, I, for one, this is my thing about TV. I love the reactionary elements that we've talked. talked about where you can shape and guide a show depending on what's working and what's not,

there's also this fact that, like, things are of their time. And some things you have to just, like, let go of. And it's going to be disruptive. It's going to be controversial. But, like, sometimes you have to kill off really beloved characters. And I think having actual stakes and repercussions for the shit that Veronica is getting into is what makes this show good. The fact that some days, she's going to show up to a biker bar and it's like, holy shit,

this is dangerous. Not just, like, a girl playing at detective is what made the show good. And so the fact that there are actual costs, I was here for that. I mean, I'm not saying like the show did that, I think, quite well in season two because I loved the character of fever and I was absolutely devastated, personally devastated at the ending of season two. So like the show has done it before. And I agree. Like I was actually kind of defensive of the choice in terms of if they want this story to continue and they want Veronica to sort of like be free to do other things. into move and shake and not be in the same cycle of the same relationship.

They had to do it. And I, yeah, anyway, Jason Doring deserves the world. He's so good. I think Rob Thomas should just create a show for Jason Doring that is just like, which is just like, just make it basically Logan. Just don't even try. It's fine. Just have him play Basically Logan.

We're all cool with it. We'd be really into it. he deserves as much as Chris and Bell does as a career, I think. I do think these shows and these characters do also struggle with something, which is when you have the bad boy bleached blonde hair asshole character

that we've been talking about all episode, when you do make him into the good boyfriend, there is a little bit of a plot vacuum of like, well, now if he's not starting bum fights, what do we have this guy do? And some of the solution for that for season four is, oh, we kind of dial up some of Veronica's mess even more

and then he can be the sort of stabilizing contrast piece. But then that's getting away from some of the edge that people like in Logan in the first place. And so there's kind of a no-win situation that develops with characters like that. They addressed him Meadoway in season four in that episode where he's like, he punches a hole in the, in the pantry. And then they like have rough sex. And he's like, is this what you missed? This guy? And she's like, yeah, it was great.

He's like, I'm going to therapy, man. It is in fact what they and she missed. I have been going to therapy. Like, I'm not interested. So, yeah, it's a, it's a no-win situation. But when it was good, it was very good. And when it was good was season one, I would say season one, season one, season two, season one, perfect.

Season two, really good. Season three, to me, makes bag. But, you know. I could be talked into season two being even better. I think some of the highs might be even higher. One overall might hang together a little more. Veronica Mars also has that thing where it's like, the longer you go into it, the more certain events are almost like retconned into complications that

make it hard to even remember, like, wait, who was it that did what? Was it this person who left the room then and this person? Like, there's a lot happening that you need to keep track of and it keeps deepening and changing over time. It makes it hard to kind of separate one season from another, too. I think the mystery of season one, who killed Lily Kane is so good. Yes. And I think the Aaron Eccles reveal is so good that it's hard to top in season two with Steve

Goodberg, with love and respect to Steve Goodberg. I love Steve Goodenberg, yeah. That's great. Good's great in the broader Rob Thomas universe, the Steve Gutenberg episode of Party Down is just one of the greatest episodes of TV that's ever been made. Absolutely rock solid. Very good. All right.

So this has been another hooked episode. We suggest you watch Party Down. We suggest you watch Veronica Bars. We suggest you watch Buffy the Vampires layer. Of course. You should watch all the things that are very important to us because our taste is perfect. We will be back, as I mentioned, with the first episode of Task and also Rob's introduction. to the television series Lost.

I can't wait. I cannot believe I get to talk to you about the first two episodes. We're going to doing the two-part pilot of Lost is what we're doing. I'm feeling a lot of pressure, Joe. Just as somebody who obviously Lost means a great deal to you, I am now on the other end of the recommending Veronica Mars chain. I'm really confident. I'm really confident, Rob, that you're going to enjoy the pilot of Lost.

I hope you're right. And then we've got two more shows that we plan to do, after that, and then that wraps up our first arc of the, of, of, of hooked because task will be going, so horses is coming. We've got a lot. Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile, with a message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please for the love of everything good in this world, stop. With Mint, you can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments, but that's weird. Okay, one judgment.

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Prestiastewvie at Spotify.com. If you have any Veronica Mars thoughts. Oh, I would love to hear them. If you have any Logan Echols thoughts, if you have any lost thoughts for Rob. No spoilers on those, please. No, no, no, of course not. And we will see you soon. Bye.