The Prestige TV Podcast - 'The White Lotus' Season 2, Episodes 4-5 Recap

Episode Date: November 28, 2022

Bill Simmons, Joanna Robinson, and Mallory Rubin recap episodes 4 and 5 of 'The White Lotus.' They talk about the addition of Tom Hollander to the cast (1:00), all of the sexual politics going on in the show (18:12), and make some predictions for the rest of the season (38:48). Hosts: Bill Simmons, Joanna Robinson, and Mallory Rubin Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The time has come to get ready for the 2022 World Cup. And what better way to prepare than by revisiting the World Cup's most amazing goals? I'm Brian Phillips. I'm making a podcast about the history of the men's World Cup, told through the stories of 22 iconic goals. The show's called 22 Goals. It's out now on the Ringer Podcast Network, and we're having so much fun. It's the prestige TV podcast.

My name is Bill Simmons here with Joanna Robinson and a very special guest, the queen of ribald sexuality on prestige television. Malley Rubin, we had to bring out the big guns. We are doing episode four and five. We had to miss episode four last week, which is my fault. But it actually helps because these two together, I feel like our bookend episodes. And then episode five, the wheels. come off. We get very, very, very, very body. It is the most sex-driven episode of White Lotus ever.

Mal, you must have been in heaven. Oh, my goodness. What a treat it was to receive the summons from you to join you both today. I feel like I should say, you know, leave the Zoom unlocked. I've got to go do something for my uncle and I'll be right back. Joina, episode four, which I wish we had podcasted about, but it was also the most skippable one of all of them because it basically sets up five. I like all the episodes. But we've laid a lot of breadcrumbs and a lot of groundwork. What sticks out as we leave episode five? What is the big plot for you?

Okay. Well, first of all, episode, like, I love that episode, but about 15% of it was just waves crashing, footage of waves crashing. So, you know, that's okay. We can condense it into this episode. I'm, you know, I said this at the beginning and it's still true. I was eagerly waiting for Tom Hollander to show up. And now that he's here, I'm like mad. We had to wait this long to get him.

But Tom Hollander is Quentin is just has stepped up the level of this show for me. I think he's absolutely delicious in every line delivery. All of a sudden, all of the issues that I had around the Tanya character have gone away because I love her in this plot. I think it works really, really well. So it feels like everything is clicking into place. And this is a missing ingredient for me. So, Matt, we see him. We meet him in episode four with his moustachioed friend.

He takes an unusual interest in Jennifer Coolidge's character, Tanya. I was immediately suspicious. Yeah. Talks about, I love how you dress. Nobody, we've seen a million people dressed in exotic, weird, fashionable, whatever. It's not like we're in Kansas City here. We're in Italy. but so I was suspicious there and then they immediately bring her in.

What, just, what do you think's going on here? Why do they like Tanya? Well, you know, Quentin tells us in episode five, a world without beauty is not a world I want to live in.

We see them weeping together at the opera. I was like, it's me crying at art that I love. Wow. In the pursuit of a meaningful connection in a beautiful locale. I have never been to Cicely. nor the opera. Let me just clarify that immediately. And yet, I don't know, I think like you two, first of all, let me say, I've loved the pod so far. I love White Lotus and I've loved listening to

you two talk about it together. And one of the things that I've really enjoyed is the ever-present strain of suspicion, right? You don't trust anyone. It's hard to. And yet, there are numerous characters who we're feeling like we hope this person will be okay. And so the Quentin Tanya, Portia, Jack plot line now has a lot of people I'm rooting for

and hope will be okay but because it's White Lotus I never know who I can trust and if a connection is sincere like is it possible that people just met on vacation

and really hit it off and decided to share their life stories and found like something deep in their souls and hearts that will bind them for all time maybe.

I don't know. We got that line from Tanya about how, and this was so sad, how refreshing it was to see that they had real money. Yeah. Because it made her feel like for once she didn't have to be on her guard about what somebody would want from her,

which was like devastating. So we're always, we're always wary of everyone in White Lotus. I, so I'm wholly convinced that he is flat broke, needs money for his villa, is trying to get money out of her, right? Yeah.

And she's been softened and diluted. He makes mention of, you know, the constant upkeep of the villa, having to open it to the public, but we're not going to do that. The public will not be allowed. Yeah, the public is not coming in, but you're allowed in. So he's got this pretence of wealth. He's got the boat. He's taken to the opera, but it's really like a long con to get money from her. But the real question is, is it, you know, just wheedle money out of her or is it kill her to get her money?

because he says, we live for beauty, I would also die for beauty. Yes. Ominous score. Wouldn't you? Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Well, it is White Lotus, and we do know that there's a dead body floating. A few. In the ocean. Multiple dead bodies. At least one, a couple days later. So I like Mal's point about

trust no one but root for everyone, I think is a key thing of White Lotus. So these people come in. I don't trust either of them right away. And I know from what Joanna said, like she was waiting for Tom Hollander to come into the episode. So it's like, oh, clearly he's going to have a real role. Right.

I don't understand the fascination with Tanya, but I think some of the points that were just made are probably decent predictions, right? It might just be they're either trying to milk her for money. They targeted. Maybe they're working with the manager who seems like she's melting down. Maybe the manager tips them off for, hey, we have this lady's in.

She's super rich. Her husband just left. So I'm willing, everything's on board for me, I guess is my point. At first I thought maybe, you know, because Jennifer Coolidge is herself like a gay icon. So I was like maybe, you know, they're just doing like, okay, nobody appreciates Tanya except these gay men. And at first, that's what it seemed like in the last episode. But this episode, when they're kind of openly mocking her at the opera when she asks if

it's the queen of Sicily, I was like, there's something mean, there's something mean going on here. Absolutely. But my other question is, I mean, I feel very certain, like, Jack's not a nephew. Like, do we think this is an incest reveal? I don't. Or just, you know, this is my boy, Toy. And for the reason of the story I've concocted, we're calling him my nephew.

Yes. I think the latter, right? We're not watching the Targaryen House of the Dragon plot seep in across HBO lines into another prestige property. I do think, though, one of the things that you both have tracked across the episodes is like, obviously when the plot lines literally mingle and intermingle and interact, but also just thematically what's similar across the plot lines. And I think there are multiple characters who are fronting wealth that they do not have. Like, it seems clear at this point. So that could be a, that could be a through line, right, not only with Quentin, but also definitely seems like that's what's going on with Cameron, right? Like he doesn't have the money.

He doesn't have the euros that he needs. And everything that they're doing, the great expense of the hotel, the trip to the vineyards for the day, like all of the things. The Jetskies, I'm assuming he's just charging that. But when he actually needs the cash from the bank account, he doesn't have it. And Ethan is his mark. So everybody has a mark. And sometimes there's maybe something more wholesome afoot there. We hear Lucia say that Albi is a rich boy and an innocent one.

And, you know, all of the different people who are connecting, like, we're always interrogating when that connection is sincere and when there's the pathway to something maybe more wholesome and pure there. And when there isn't. Like with Cameron. Well, let's go back to the sex. Please. This episode five, we'll dive. I think we can skip most episode four. Episode four is really just about Arby Plaza's character, finding the condom. being suspicious, and it starts unraveling. So we have that piece. And then we have Lucia turns her attention to Albi. So we have that.

And then we have our girl, Haley Lou Richardson, which just continues to hit a home runs in every episode. She finds the boy toy slash good sex fling that she's been, what really went to Italy for? We have that. We have Tanya with, no, so that's how we leave episode four. The generation, the three guys. it's hard to say where that's gone with the older guys,

but with Alby, we know like, all right, the hooker thing, this isn't going to go great for him. But we get to episode five, starts out with a pretty heated sex scene. Yet again with the hooker and Albie.

Albi's really like he's having toe curling sex probably for the first time of his life. With his socks on. Take your socks out of the second sex scene at the end of the episode and the very prominent socks. I couldn't have loved it more. We have hooker number two flirting with the manager and laying the groundwork for whatever's going to happen with them. We have Cameron, and this is in episode five now, Cameron hitting on Harper, grabbing her leg, which it doesn't seem like she's 100% against.

So that's there. And then it ends with what you just mentioned a little bit earlier. maybe the most graphic man-on-man sex scene, I think, in the history of HBO. But Zoe and I were watching it. We couldn't figure out who the guy that Jack, the boy toy, his name's Jack, right? The one with Hillary Richardson.

We couldn't figure out who it was. I don't think it was Tom Hollander. We freeze-framed it. It was an embarrassing stream. You think it was Tom Hollander? I wasn't positive. Yeah. Because it was hard to tell.

They only flashed him quick. I think it was Tom Hollander. He said, I've got to go do something from my uncle. It was definitely a calendar. Okay. So now, from the...

I don't think that's the most graphic man-of-man sex we ever seen on HBO. Can't possibly be. What was more graphic? I don't know. I think both scenes were really graphic. I would put both of those

like in the top 10. HBO history? HBO doesn't really go bonkers like that. I don't know. What does that do now for Tanya because now I think she moves up the death suspect rankings.

Right? She does, but it's so early for that because we have two more episodes to go. So I have an alternative theory. Okay, well, she walks into this. So now she sees something she can't unsee that cast suspicion on all of these guys. And I think Lucia would be the other one that I think has moved into the top of the rankings. Those would be my two favorites right now if I was on Fan Duel. You've had Lucia at the top of your list for, I think, for the...

the beginning, right? You like don't think things are going to go well for her. Yeah, yeah. And she's playing a little bit with fire here. Like the Alessio guy that she's sort of introduced into this narrative, we have not heard of him before this episode. So it seems like a story she's concocted. Because Albi has this like white night complex, right? He's like broken birds and like emotionally vulnerable women. This is my thing. And we hear him talking to his dad about like, well, I hope she's not involved in something where she's being taken advantage of. And he says that to her as well. So, like, to Mal's point about, like, are people being genuine with their desire for connection or are they using someone? In Lucia, I think we get this phone.

I think it's both for her. Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. I'll be shot to the top of my death watch list in this episode. Oh, interesting. Oh, great the case. Okay.

He, he, to Joe's point about the White Knight complex and his savior complex, he, not only is he, like, asking all of these questions. the episode and trying to navigate his own total lack of worldliness and awareness with this front and facade that he maintains of being this great understanding progressive thinker. But he witnessed the exchange with Cameron at dinner and asked about it. And she told him that he owes her money. And so I'm now anticipating that Albi is going to challenge Cameron for the owed money for the debt and that one of them will die as a result. Oh, that's good. So Cameron's on my list, top my list of people to die. He's not one on my list. No, wait, can I, can I throw water on that?

Of course. The wife finds the body. Yeah. So if it's her, isn't she more horrified that it's the husband unless she did it? I think Daphne did it. That's my character. She was talking about dateline and murders. She has this like, disassociative behavior in this episode. when she's talking to, when Harper confronts her about like, hey, this thing happened. And she's like, well, if something did happen, you just do whatever you need to do to make yourself feel better. She tells this whole, like, trainer story. And then Harper's like, that's a photo of your kids.

And she's like, oh, is it silly me? Like, that is troubling behavior, I think, from her. And you can just call it like coping because it is, like, that's a coping mechanism or whatever. And she's definitely, like, sending Harper a message of, like, don't, don't poke this too much. But if the Cameron Harper stuff that's been there from the beginning builds to something, I could see Daphne killing them both, honestly. Is Daphne the best actor this season? Because I thought she was one thing in the first two episodes.

And now we're peeling her like an onion. Whereas, like, Aubrey Plaza has really nowhere else to go now after she had a hot start. But now we're just in the, she has the, um, unraveling face. and that's about it. Whereas Daphne feels like she's in complete control of the surroundings. What's your take, Mel?

I actually thought this was Aubrey Plaza's best episode, episode five. I thought that the dynamic that, and again, because like, there's this, one of the things that's really wonderful about the show is there's this ever-present mix

of what you are presenting to somebody, either because you are trying to manipulate them, leverage a certain situation, or because you're in a genuine state of emotional distress, and need to maintain some sort of fiction, like the coping mechanism that Joe mentioned. And often in White Lotus,

those are present not only in the same character, but in the same scene and the same conversation. So the exchange with the two couples where Harper is asking Cameron and Ethan about their college sex lives and whether they ever fucked the same people, whether they ever had an orgy, whether they watched each other have sex.

Like, she's working them. She's trying to make Ethan very uncomfortable. and ashamed. She's trying to get Cameron to trip up, but she's also wrestling with, like, the real insecurity that she feels based on what happened. And then we're watching all of their faces. And Daphne's facial expressions in that scene are also, like, incredible. So I think that this was a heater from Aubrey Plaza. And like, I think, in general, I think the cast is obviously like sensational. They're all, they're all amazing. I mean, this was just, episode five in particular was like a tour to force across the board. Just great stuff. Even from the, the crashing

ocean waves. I was like, wow, I've never seen a wave crash like that white lotus. Yeah. The big little lies people were like, damn, what did we do wrong with the crashing waves? We're right there. I thought Ethan, bad actor or completely enravelling Joe? Mallory loves, I want to get, I want to give Mallory the mic because Mallory loves Ethan and we have been knocking him this whole time and out. Just allow me a moment. Go for it. This has been distressing and I've been texting Joe on the side. It's, it's definitely possible that I just think he is. so cute that I'm like, I just love him. I think he's adorable, very handsome. He has a charm, even though he is, especially in this episode, where he, I kind of think you should feel good about

this as his non-apology, really in all time, like, why does anyone get married kind of moment, just exceptional stuff. It truly seats from a marriage material there. But I really like Ethan and I like the Will Sharp performance, I think that nervous energy and the like lack of sureness about how to navigate the situation is like an intentional point of contrast initially with Cameron. And like we really feel that in this conversation where they're reflecting back on their college years. And Ethan just calls him out like you maybe you thought fucking women I had a connection with would make you feel smarter. Like the way that we're seeing his confidence build over the course of the episodes, but also his meanness in tandem with that.

Like, that's kind of the thing to fear. So I think it's like a subtler performance than some of the other ones by necessity. But I really like him. And I just want to say that the cardigan, the Navy cardigan with the white t-shirt and the olive pants at the end of episode four, exceptional. Carry on. So quick recap, Mao thinks he's cute. So Joanna. Big fan.

Why did Ethan want to go on vacation with Cameron? Now that we've watched him interact for five episodes. What was the upset? Because he clearly didn't like him in college, didn't trust him, understood, like, what his motives were for wanting to go on the vacation. So is this like a weird dick-swing and power play by him? What is it? I think so, but I don't think Ethan would have been able to tell you that before the trip. I think he would just been like, oh, this is my buddy from college.

I don't think he has examined himself that deeply in that way. Harper's the one who's always sort of like psychoanalyzing everyone around her, sometimes very meanly, but, you know, very accurately. but in that wine tasting sequence when he's talking about that idea of memetic desire that Mallory brought up and Cameron says like, well, you know, you weren't superior to me in college and he was like, maybe not them, but I am now. And he was like, and I was smarter than you. You know, so yeah, it is like, it's a dick singing in competition and this sort of like, and especially in this environment where, you know, your wealth really matters, you know,

and how much you can show off and how much you have. I do think this is a moment for Ethan, I think, subconsciously, but now maybe a bit more consciously to put Cameron a bit in his place and show him that he is at least on his level, if not, you know, above him. Yeah. Tough to be in a dick swinging contest with Cameron. I mean, you saw that thing. Mallory, this is why you're here.

Mallory's like, Joanna, stop talking so I can make this dick joke. Amazing. Theo James is trending on Twitter after episode one because of Mallory was just replying everybody. I'm glad you brought out Theo James. I think he's the big winner of this season. He's been great. I actually think he's a leading man and I want to see him in more stuff.

My wife and I, we watch. There's some movie on Netflix called Lying and Stealing that he made with Emily Radikowsky. That's like a kind of a thief movie. He's like this kind of low-rent thief, but goes after these big things and he has a lot of debts. And he plays a totally different. He's not, like, super cocky like he is in this. But I haven't seen him in some of the other stuff. I wasn't familiar with him.

So I have a blank canvas with him. Did you guys have a history with him at all, Theo James? Yeah, I mean, I had seen him in Sanditon, where he's playing, you know, like he's British. So it's a very, you know, it's a Jane Austen sort of joint. I'd seen him in that, obviously, incredible, memorable appearance in downtown Abbey. Yeah. Who can forget. Yeah, who can forget.

But most recently, I watched all of the Time Traveler's Wife, which is this, you know, a series that not a lot of people watched on HBO earlier this year. And he's really good in that because he's playing the same character over many decades of his life. And you really felt the difference between this guy as a cocky young asshole 20 year old and then a sort of calm or wiser 40-year-old interacting with himself in this sort of genre romance. So he really impressed me in that. He's, you know, he's doing a lot of great stuff here. but I want to talk about Michael Imperialioli for a second because I actually got... Wait, hold on, Bob. Can we give me one more thing on that?

Of course, yeah. He's fucking British? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, God damn it. Why can we have good American actors? What the hell? Oh, my goodness.

He's a British guy? Yeah. Why are we failing? This should be the number one priority in this country is to get more American actors. It's an import, export business. Wait, can I throw one more, Theo, James thinking now? No mention of his memorable role. and run as four and divergent.

I guess I'm here not only to make dick jokes, but to mention classic Y-A cinema. You're welcome. Carry on. That's a franchise that famously did not finish. It was so unloved. There's a canceled franchise. Yes.

Now, I'm just going to throw this out of you before we move to Michael Pirioli. Okay. Hollywood Reporter announcement, we're bringing back the affair. And this time it's with Theo James. Walk us through your first 10 seconds. Honestly, my heart just stopped.

Like for a moment. For a moment, it stopped. He's the guy, right? He's the, he's the Dominic West 2.0. It feels like that's worst case. That's his destiny. You know, I think the normal reaction would be to run through all of the Montauk sex scenes out by the lighthouse in season one in my mind. But I can't help but think about the aged up dancing on the Moors in the apocalypse.

Yeah, at the end of season five episodes that I think only we watched. It was you made. three other people. All right. Joanna, Michael Imperioli. Yeah, I got an argument with a friend of mine

the other day. She said she thought this was a bad Michael Imperiali performance. I think it's maybe his best. So my mom. That was my mom's take as well. I love him in this.

I think he's really good. And I really loved him in this episode, especially in the confrontation with Bert, right, talking to his dad about, he's like,

I don't blame you, but this is what you did. And this is how I absorb that. And this is how it has impacted my life. And to have the contrast of a sequence we got a couple episodes ago where he's looking, he's like actively trying not to fuck anything. And he's looking around the bar and all he sees is hot young women.

And in this episode, he's walking on the beach and all he sees are like couples and like this sort of aspirational lonely. I want companionship. I don't want to just like, so you're feeling the Laura Dern episode seven showing up at the hotel. I do want it. I'm still skeptical that she's showing up beyond a. voice cameo, but I mean, I would love, I want a happy ending. Is it wrong that I'm rooting for Dom? I am. I'm kind of rooting for him too. When he said to his father, you know you're the reason I am who I am.

Mal, you've said that to your mom a couple times. Like three times. Anytime she's gotten heated with you, you just throw that back at her. No, that's, when somebody says that, you're like, oh, man. So this guy's self-aware of how damage she is and also self-aware of the cause of the damage. And the dad's just looking at him blankly. He knows deep down. But I thought that scene was really good.

Yeah, it was sad when he said, like, you never showed me how to love a woman. And I think the key to the character to your point is, like, he is self-aware. He does recognize that he is then also, in turn, modeling that bad behavior for Albi. But, like, the contradictions are ever present with him because, yes, he's taking the loving stroll down the beach. Like, he's in his hotel room alone looking at porn. but then closing the laptop. Yeah, he's constantly at war with himself trying to avoid the backslide. But like, when he's talking to Byrd, even though he is acknowledging, I am like this.

I am flawed too. He is then doing the very things that he's accusing Bert of doing. Like, is he sitting down Alby and having a really meaningful heart to heart with him about relationships? Maybe he's not doing that because he doesn't think that Albie would want to hear him. hear that from him and maybe he's saving all of his energy for those conversations to say, please convince your mother to take me back. But he just waits till Albi's out of you and then it scoots over to find Lucia and say to her, please don't fuck this up for me. So I think that that like that navigation of his own impulses is like really one of the interesting parts of

the season so far and he's been really fun to watch. But like to your to the earlier point about Lucia having altruistic motivations and sort of self-interest motivation the same time. I think he genuinely, like, I don't think his concern around Lucia is just don't blow up my spot. I think he's also like, I don't want Albi getting into something that is potentially going to be trouble for him. And I would say in Dom's defense, I don't know when I became a big Dom defender, but here I am.

I would say in Dom's defense, he tried to have a conversation with Albi where he was like, you know, I don't think about your mom that, like, I respect your mom. mom. Your mom's a really cool, smart lady, and that's why I'm with her. Like, that's who I am. I'm not some sort of knuckle-dragging, misogynist. Like, I care about this kind of thing. And I think that idea of fighting your inner nature is this constant theme, the waves crashing theme of this season of, like, that idea of change or who are you on vacation? Can you pretend to be someone else on vacation? Can you still be that person when you get home? Like, or are you just trying on a new personality, a new kind of behavior, that sort of stuff.

Because like the stuff that Harper is doing this episode, Aubrey Plaza, she's sort of like kind of eye fucking camera, but also kind of like hating him at the same time. This all feels like vacation behavior and stuff that she would never do back home. See, that's why I didn't like the Aubrey Plaza performance as much as Mal did. I couldn't totally figure out what her intentions were in this episode, even though I knew like how it was being written. I was like, give us some, if she's going to flirt with Cameron,

I think you have to dial that up 20% more. Like if she's trying to make Ethan jealous, if she really wants to fuck him, she's dialing it back. But she was kind of sloppy and all over the place with it. I never understood like what she thought the character was supposed to be thinking.

Like, does she want to fuck the guy or not? I think she just wants to regain power of her situation where she feels powerless. And so like he's trying to unsettle her by groping her at dinner, right? He's using, and sex as, like, a weapon or a commodity is such a big, you know, theme of this episode and throughout the season. I think he wants to fuck her, though.

I just think he's a super horny guy. But I don't think he wants to fuck her just because he's horner. I think he wants to fuck her because, like, again, the, the memetic desire, all of that sort of stuff. But also just to, like, because she's smart and challenging, he wants to put her off her guard, you know. Yes. I think she, I think he's probably going to get a little more than, than,

uh, that he bargained for with that one. We, we only got screeners for the first five. Do we get, do we get six? What happens with that, Joe?

You're a screener veteran. I bet we get six, but I bet we don't get seven. That's what I would guess. Okay. Okay. Let's go through the plot, the big plots.

We talked about Albi and, and, uh, and Lucia, the hooker. We also have hooker number two. who seems to be combination making a play to be the new piano player, but then kind of interested in the manager,

but not totally. Maybe there's some power play stuff with that. And I thought that was a really good scene. And the manager character paid off. Joe, you called this the last time we did a pod where that direction was going. But she totally changed in that scene. And I was like, oh, all right, this is, I get this now. What other takeaways do you have?

Mia is one of my favorite characters. I really love her. And like the whole like the whole tremendously awkward chapel fuck with the pianist is. It's deconsecrated. And running down to the beach to try to get like get the clarity on the drugs and all that sort of stuff. Like that was genuinely hilarious to me. But I love her. Okay, first of all, I love that Lucia called the called the manager Valentina Lashtraga, the way.

She's like, here comes the witch, right? But Mia sees an opportunity. And like, what's so interesting about four and five is that Lucia, Mia come into this. Lucia is the like, I'm using sex to earn the money that I want to earn. And Mia's like, that's not who I am. She hadn't done this before. And she sort of like reluctantly pulled along. And then they do this little flip in episode four where, you know, Lucia starts to say, like, oh, we're going to hell.

We're going to be judged. All this sort of stuff. Mia's the sex positive one. She's like, this is fine. We're fine. We're just doing a job. You know, that sort of stuff. And then she starts to understand how she can get what she wants.

And I love that she gets what she wants in this. And she's so good. Actually, one of my favorite lines after the pianist collapse and Tanya is like, I hope he's okay. And Quentin says, Tani says, I hope he's not dead. And Quentin says, well, maybe they'll find a better one. You know? So good. And they did.

Her rendition of That's Amore, which she was. gives the title of this episode is a truly wonderful and beautiful rendition of a song we've heard a gazillion times. So, yeah, I'm big on this character. My big nitpick is, I think Dom goes to the front desk and it's just like, I need to do room keys. Can you cancel all the room keys I have out? It got stolen from my room. And that's it. Like, once you're in my dad's room and getting dressed and that's it. The deal is off. You've been paid. Well, I think it's two things. Now you're going after my son, you're out.

He doesn't want to spark any blowback that would then blow up his spot. So he's trying to like carefully manage the situation. But I think to Joe's point from earlier, like he also fancies himself a good guy and has to keep telling himself that he's a good caring, charismatic, generous person. And, you know, Joe, it's our old George R.R. Barton Falkner idea. Conflict in the human heart. It's the only thing interesting worth writing. that. I'm glad you mentioned the episode title and Mia's performance. Should we make up some custom lyrics to an iconic song for this cast? Ethan likes his porn and his sex in the morn.

That's someore. Cameron is a pig, but his dick's not a twig. That's a moray. I just want everyone to know that, like, Mallory had absolutely zero notice that we were going to pull her out to this podcast. Yeah, that is not rehearsed. The fact is I just inspired. Inspired by show I love. Great stuff. Joanna, how many times did we see the Pimp character?

Is that the first time this episode? Alessio. Yeah. He gets mentioned for the first time in this episode, and then we see him on the street for the first time. And it seems like I went back and rewatched the opening scenes to see if she had mentioned him there and she doesn't. So as far as I know, this is someone she has invented and pulled into

this scenario in order to trigger Alby's protective. I mean, because in her ideal scenario, because she's already mentioned wanting to go to Los Angeles to Dom. Like, I think in her ideal scenario, Albi just like takes her home with him. And so I think she's trying to position herself as someone who is vulnerable. Again, and to, you know, to what Mal was saying earlier, I don't think it's wholly mercenary and calculated because she,

I think she genuinely does like Albies. Oh, yeah. It's like a sweet boy who's like a socks on during sex, you know, and all this stuff. And she's like, I want this sweet boy to take me back to Los Angeles. So I'm going to invent this pimp character, you know, to trigger his protective instincts. I think that's what's going on. I have a counter.

Okay. I've learned from this show to be suspicious of everyone. Yes, always. She's a prostitute. And that guy shows up in this episode. I don't know. I'm dubious. I don't think anyone, I'm dubious.

I'm dubious of any true love in this show. So everything you laid out makes sense. But I'm just, I'm going to keep my guard up with every relationship in this show and wonder what the ulterior motives are. Well, listen, I'm not saying it's true love. I'm not saying this is like the most beautiful, innocent storybook romance of all time.

I just think that like she sees a meal ticket who is also someone who she genuinely likes. Yeah. It's like a window into another kind of life potentially, right? And I think to that like flipping of the, the Lucia Mia point and that idea of like, are we going to be punished? Maybe we won't be punished. Maybe it will all be okay. Like, I will say, I think

I'm wondering and I wanted to ask you, Bill, the world's preeminent mob story expert. Yeah. If you're anticipating a mafia plotline emerging more fully here because we got all of the godfather stuff. A lot of breadcrumbs from the godfather. When Quentin was telling Tanya about the house on the island, he talked about the investors coming in.

If you know what I mean. Yeah. And like, are we going to get that? Is there enough time for an element like that to enter the story in some way and impact some of these tourists? So we have two episodes left and the last one will probably be like an hour of 15. Yeah. So we're talking 135 minutes.

I don't know. I don't think we have the time. I think there's too many plots in motion. Maybe Rocco, who has been demoted from the front desk down to the beach club. Beautiful beach club. I don't know why he's so pissed. I mean, I probably, no, the tips have to be better at the beach club, don't they? Like, I don't know.

Anyway, he's a lot of moving around. He's not excited to be separated from Isabella, but like maybe Rocco is connected in the family way. And, you know. The case against her falling head over here is for Albi. Did we have the scene where she tells Mia like this guy's the one? I fucking love this guy. I don't think it's head over heels. She just says he's innocent.

He's rich and innocent. So he's like, she likes him, but she's also using him at the same time. Both. Okay. We didn't talk about Porsche with the crazy sex fling. And this guy, Jack, another one that if you're going to get suspicious, like she sees him, he's swimming in the pool by himself, right? He's a honey trap.

Episode four. Yeah. Now she's all in on him. And episode five, all of a sudden he's having sex with his uncle when she's in, what, how many rooms away? Like seven rooms away? Mm-hmm. So was he there in? intentionally too?

He's, well, something that Quentin says to Tanya, when they're first talking to the beach club, he says, you're just here with your assistant, right? And so I feel like,

again, it's a situation where I do think Jack likes Portia and likes having sex with her, but he's been deployed to, you know, distract her to isolate Tanya so that Quentin can work on Tanya.

I think that's, I think that's fair. As you know, I'm dubious of everyone on the show. We also get him just butt naked lying on the bed. Like, where are the sheets? Where's the blanket? He looks like he was shot. Big night.

Big night, you know, getting some fresh air. That Sicily sea breeze. I'd just like to highlight. I know we're mostly talking about episode five. But near the end of episode four, when Jack came down and said, I put on fresh underwear for you. He's talking about a sexy underwear as we learn. And Portia says, Why did you shit your pants?

Just iconic stuff for Borsha, a legend. Yeah, you know, the rice ball scene scooting out without paying the bill, night on the town. I think that their attraction seems very real. Scootting out on the bill was weird for somebody who's got a rich uncle. Well, again, I don't think he does have a rich uncle. Yeah, so that's the thing. He definitely, uh, definitely maybe not.

Also, I don't think that's his uncle. I mean, I think that I was suspicious. I sure hope that. Yeah, I was suspicious of him being, I mean, English is such a class conscious place that like the fact that he has this thick Essex accent and Tom Hollander is as posh as he is, I was like, I don't, I don't know that this is his nephew, honestly. Well, and then Tom Hollander has that great monologue talking about the one time he was in love. The cowboy. The cowboy. Yeah.

Wyoming. If he had said Montana, I would have anticipated a Yellowstone crossover in the future class. Rip. But now maybe he's in the boy toy phase of things. He loves beauty, Bill. What can you say? He lives for beauty.

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Scrolling? Doom scrolling? looking at other people's vacations Miami, San Diego, Cancun? Okay, what about you? What places will you go? Expedia is the one place you go to go places. Your trip can earn rewards

which you can use towards your next eligible stay. Soon people will be doom-scrolling you. You'll be that friend's friend, but with rewards. What are you waiting for? Expedia, the one place you go to go places, terms apply. We have Valentina having a sex identity crisis, which seems like we know where that's what direction that's heading in. And Albi and Portia seemed done was the other thing I guess that happened over the last two episodes

where there was just no spark at all. He goes right to Lucia, tons of sparks. She goes right to Jack, the Essex dude, tons of sparks. So, you know, it is what it is. I want to say, I just want to shout out Porsche's like, I'm in the Italian Sex Fantasy that I want makeover where like she went from her like bucket hats. She looks great in episode five. Yeah.

Yeah. In four and five, she's just sort of like, oh, what if I dressed completely differently and did my hair and did a lot of makeup? She was like frazzled. Yeah, frazzled. I forgot my suitcase. I had to go quickly by clothes mode. And now she's like fashiony.

What I also loved and what made me sad is that, you know, Tanya has been such an asshole to Portia this whole time. And once Tanya gets the attention that she needs from Quentin, which again, it's probably bad attention. when she gets the attention she needs, she's very gracious to Portia. She's like, I think you're having sex on the boat.

I'm jealous. And I'm like, you know, I was like, this is so nice. And then you're like, oh, no, is someone going to die? I don't know.

I loved her. She said, that whole time. Yeah. Well, they had that great scene when, um, when Porsche is telling her about,

you know, her romantic stuff, Tani's listening to her and you expect her to answer with some sort of sage advice or whatever. And she's like, I don't know what happened to Greg. It's like she didn't even hear her. It's like person talking, person talking, person talking,

oh, here's my thing. She's so self-absorbed. So I'm kind of excited that the Tom Hollander gang is going to upend her in some way. Well, Tanya even says, do you think I'm oblivious? And again, like these contradictions inside of the characters are what make the characters in the show so compelling because, like, there's a, we feel, we have a tenderness toward Tanya. we don't want to see, maybe you do, but I think we don't want to see bad things happen to Tanya, but we all.

No, I'm ready for Tanya to go. You're ready. I disagree. I think she'll be the through line across seasons. I don't think we're saying goodbye to Tanya. I think the White Lotus and Tanya are the two ever-present elements in a sea of variables. If people keep dying on Tanya's vacations, Mallory, like at some point we need to. We mix it up with a cold weather climate and season three, we hit the ski slopes or something.

You know, Tanya gives it another. try death on the out. I think when she played the same character and the watcher, HBO's like this. We're done. You're not coming back. Well, but the thing I wanted to, the reason I raise the oblivious quote is, because again, I think that's not unique to her.

Like, Valentina feels a very real attraction to Isabella, a real longing. But everything that she's saying at the end, and we can feel the shift, right, when Isabella, she introduces

that brings up Salvatore, Salvatore from the beach club. And Isabelle's like, what just happened here? Where's Rocco? I actually like working this with this guy. I like hanging out with this guy. And Valentina sang to her, like, I know that he makes you uncomfortable, which is a presumption. That's her projection. Her projection.

And like the fact that she doesn't enjoy that dynamic, that she wants to get Rocco out of the way. But it's like shifting in real time to Valencibe. Valentina being the one who is making Isabella uncomfortable through that presumption, right? And that- And through the attention and through the gifts and like all those other stuff. This is the one Nick, like, maybe I have a few, but this is the main knit I have to pick, actually, with White Lotus Season 2 is that I feel like to give us another gay manager of the hotel who is like unraveling partially due to an infatuation with a good-looking employee is a little too much. of a season one retread for me. Yeah. Fair.

The other retread is just having Tanya and White Lotus is two. That's fair. But to the Tanya point about like whether or like a question I think we would ask ourselves in a season that we know is going to end with at least a few dead bodies is does this person deserve a happy ending or is White Lotus interested in a happy ending? And for Tanya to raise the specter of Belinda and the spa. from season one, which is a terrible thing that she did in season one, is a good reminder to us that I agree with you, Mal. Like, I feel tenderly towards Tanya, but then she also does really hideous stuff.

Yeah. And doesn't care about people and takes them into her confidence in her life when it suits her. And then as soon as it no longer does, she disposes them. Even hearing her, she's talking about women, this was in episode four, but saying like, they have a lot to be depressed about, but they're not fun. And it was sort of an interesting thing and energy for Tanya to put out into the world. All right, quick questions before we wrap up. Mallory, do we see Greg again? Yes, I think so. I think we have to close the loop on Greg.

And I think maybe because Tanya feels like Greg has betrayed her, she will learn that that's not true and then regret whatever decision she has made in the interim. Because I think that's another theme of the season is this is obviously very present in the Daphne Harper relationship. Like what do you do when you think someone else is hurting you or not prioritizing you, not holding you sacred, right? Like you fill that space and the hurt with something that makes you feel good. But in the process of doing that, do you then hurt somebody else? Like one of the, when Harper said, Ethan loves his porn. So it's just hard to compete with slutty intern gets triple banged for not listening to her bosses.

Like, what is her version actually of trying to compete with that for the course of the rest of the season? Like, there's something that will manifest there and that's, I think, true for all of the characters. So what is Tanya's version of that? And how does she process everything that she's witnessing in real time?

Because there's also this hallucinatory element to everything with Tanya, right? Like, even the way the camera's moving through. We think she's already dead? She's trying to bathears to me. What an amazing twist. Joanna, do we see Greg again? I don't need to see him again.

I'd rather see Laura Dern than Greg again. Easy choice. Can I... Greg... Yeah, go ahead. But Greg was talking to somebody at the end of the second episode. Yeah. And they made that like the cliffhanger for the show, basically.

And I don't understand why that didn't pay off. So who knows? Next question. Oh, go. You go. No, you go. What? I just want to, Mallory knows that I love a theory.

Yeah. So I just want to say one more thing about my Daphne theory and this. I went back and rewatch the opening scene because I was like, you know, if she did it, like, is this a dissociative thing or whatever? I just want to read you some of her lines to these women that she meets on the beach before she goes in the water. Italy is just so romantic. Oh, you're going to die. They're going to have to drag you out of here. I'm going to get in the water one last time.

I'm like, does this end with her being pulled away and arrested for a murder? That's what it seems like to me. The thing is, if it was Theo James bobbing dead in the water, they would have thought there was a seal if he was naked. I don't know. Some sort of terrible object. Do we, sorry, I had to make one more dick joke for mouth. Just apologize.

Do Albie and Lucia make it to the close? Closing credits of episode seven. Here's where I would like to present my theory to both of you. Yes. Let's hear it. Lucia's going to end up being related to them. And they're going to find this out on their family trip to. Oh, my God.

Oh. The whole point of the trip, like the place that they're going, looking into their family history and their family roots. Oh, because she says he's from there. Yes. This is my theory. And Albi's like, we're going there. Yeah.

Oh, I like it, Mall. Yeah. Wait, so that's. So she's F. Murray Abraham's illegitimate daughter? Or like some family tie, some close enough cousin. Yeah.

And Dom and Albi have now both had sex with her. So I'm really, I'm just pretty personally invested in that theory. I love that. I love it. That's pretty good. How do Portia and Jack? How does that end?

What do you think, Joe? With him, I mean, Porsche, we all agree, protect Haley Lee Richardson at all costs. Portia has to make it home, right? But I think she needs... Does Tanya tell her what she saw? Yes, immediately. Why would Tanya keep that from her?

So then they have to get out of the house. They have to get out of there. Yeah, exactly. But they're in Palermo. Yeah. And they took a boat there. And they took a boat to get there. So could this be...

Could we be in like a yellow jackets episode two kind of escape from... Who gets you in first? Mateo with a mustache, probably, I think. All right. Next question. Does Cameron have sex with Harper in one of the next two episodes? Yeah. Yes.

Yeah. Oh, a double yes. Yeah. But I'm going to spin it and say Harper has sex with Cameron. Like, I think it will be framed that way as a choice she makes. That's what I'm anticipating. All right. Tough couple episodes ahead for Ethan, I think.

But also, maybe they all fuck each other. Like, are we ruling out Ethan and Daphne? Oh, yeah. A lot of three-way conversation. Yeah, a lot of talk about orgies. Yeah. But don't worry, Mal, because I kind of think you should feel good about this. I didn't do anything is something that Ethan says in this episode.

All time. All time stuff. Incredible stuff. The Harper's response, like, that sounds insane, but okay. But okay. Yeah. So funny. Does Bountina have sex with Mia?

Hmm. No. I think Mia She hits on her pretty hard Yeah she offers her fun She just wants the gig Oh I mean maybe Maybe she just wants the gig

Yeah she just wants the gig right If she needs to do it to keep the gig I think she would do it Yeah Yeah I think no I think no as well All right so if I walked you through

This scenario for the final White Lotus What's it? We'll combine all of our theories Daphne kills Cameron Lucia goes back to America with Albi and his family and Mia is now the new piano player The White Lotus with her older girlfriend Valentina Honestly

And Harper and Ethan are getting divorced And And I guess the grandfather probably dies In one of the next two episodes Is that You had that on your bingo card? 50 to one parley A walking concussion in this episode

I can't be responsible for everything I say, I'm concussed. Amazing. I honestly, and this is surprise as even me, the storyline I'm most invested in is Mia getting to keep her piano gig. I'm like, she's great. That other guy sucks.

Let Mia keep singing, please. Well, nobody will ever be able to go to this hotel again because it's going to be booked for the next seven years because it's so freaking cool. I mean, the key to White Lotus is the location. They really, like, figured it out. And I don't know, there's a lot of, you know, a lot riding on season three because they up the stakes in this one.

I don't know if there's a nicer location you could film a TV show. And just the way they used Italy was awesome and everything about it. This show is just elite. And I don't know where it's going. We have it Sunday night and then hopefully we'll get, I think we'll have screeners for the Sunday net episode. And then I think Joe's right. I think we'll have to do the seventh episode probably on Monday.

All right. Any last words before we go, Joanna? No, but I'm so, so glad you made the call to bring Malin to navigate these choppy waters with us. It was worth it just for her reaction to Theo James in the reboot of the affair. Three seconds of when her body froze is probably worth it. Just a remarkable thought experiment. So glad to be here with you both. Thank you for this absolutely delightful treat. Well, I'm so upset Theo James is British, but I'll get over.

over it. This podcast was produced by Kai MacMowland. Please, let's save American actors. We have to, can we find three under the age of 35? We will see you later on next Monday or next Sunday for White Lotus. Then we, I think we have sex labs at college girls coming

a little bit later this week and a couple more. So there you go. Good to see you.