The Prestige TV Podcast - 'The White Lotus' Season 2 Finale Recap

Episode Date: December 12, 2022

Bill, Jo, and Mal get together to share their reactions to the second-season finale of HBO's 'The White Lotus.' They touch on all of their favorite scenes and performances, particularly Jennifer Coolidge's rendition of Tanya, and talk about the overall theme of the season. After the break, they dive into their winners and losers of the episode and speculate on future locations for the show (25:42). They end the pod by submitting their top-five MVP ballots for the season and discuss which characters they'd like to see return for Season 3 (58:50). Hosts: Bill Simmons and Joanna Robinson Guest: Mallory Rubin Associate Producer: Chris Sutton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

An Instagram post gets an unexpected boost. A TikTok catches in the algorithm. Sometimes that's all it takes to launch someone into internet fame. But then what? This blew up is a new podcast documentary that reveals how social media stardom is made. It's a different kind of fame. That's not always as glamorous as it looks. From Spotify and the Ringer Podcast Network, I'm Melissa Bereznak.

You can listen to This Blue Up on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It's the Prestige TV Podcasts. My name is Bill Simmons here with Joina Robinson. Special guest, the Mother of Dragons, Mallory Rubin. We are taping this. It is 7.30 Pacific time Monday morning. Couldn't get screeners from HBO last night. I had to watch this live with the rest of America.

The tragic demise, the hilarious demise of Tanya leading the way. But I thought this was a satisfying throw ride. I love the entire season. I almost don't even have any names. negative notes. It was just, it was the rare great 2022 show. Every show is like a B plus now. Here's a show that I absolutely loved. I'm going to miss it immensely. And I really hope there's season three, A plus from this guy. What do you have, Joanna? I can't believe you can say that while a season of Yellowstone is currently airing, right, Mallory? Yeah, no, a definitely solid A for me.

solid, solid A. I love this finale. I thought it was incredible. And like, as people have been saying all season, like the who died, who did it, all of that sort of stuff is interesting. But I found everything else maybe even more interesting. And that's, I think, a hugely successful white lotus finale. Mal? Now? Wonderful. Great season of TV. What a joy to be here with you both. I feel as though I am sitting on the cliffs in Sicily looking out at the stunning vista, enjoying a heaping platter of croissants and pasta and fresh fruit picked right from the orchard at our resort. This was a real joy. I'm also devastated that it's over. I know that White Lotus is like a vacation and we really should reserve it for that special treat every year, but I would be happy if another

season started tomorrow. I really would. So did you watch Mike White's thing on HBO Max afterwards? It's like four minutes. It's always weird to see Mike White because he was one of the stars of Chuck and Buck, one of the weirdest movies of the 21st century, and he was the weird guy in the movie. So whenever I see him, I just am like, oh yeah, he's a real person. He's not the guy from the movie. But he laid it out. He said season one was about money.

Season two was about sex. And then he was like joking about season three. It was like maybe I'll go in a different direction. But he was clearly obsessed with the theme of sex, which we were guessing. from the point of the show. But the Jennifer Coolidge, as Tanya, her demise, he loved the fact that she was in control of her destiny until the bitter end, but basically falling off the boat.

I liked how they did it. I also thought that was a really cool scene. Joina, what did you think of just a filmmaking aspect of that scene of her going into the little cabin, getting the gun, finding the rope, all that stuff? I thought that was like a riveting three minutes. I loved how it was shot. I mean, I think as soon as Nicolo's gun, which is what I'm calling Chekhov's Gun from now on, like, we had Chekhov's Gun in this show. As soon as like I saw that little black bag with him, I was like, okay, here we go, right?

But I thought Coolidge was so good in this episode. And I loved exactly, the filmmaking, the way that you're in her point of view, you don't know, you know she's hit Niccolo, but you don't know where else her bullets have hit home until you see the absolute carnage. on the ship. And yeah, and it's, I mean, I, once it all started, I actually didn't think she was going to make it out alive, and she didn't. But I liked how surprising it was the way that it unraveled. Now, just jump in the water and then climb into the boat.

Come on, Tanya. What are you doing? You're just going to try to land in the boat from 20 feet up? What are you doing? Take your heels off. Also, there were stairs down, right? behind her word there? Yeah. I have some notes on the dismount.

I think she panicked because she had just, I think she panicked because she had shot four people and just like blacked out. That's kind of what makes it to Mike White's point in the inside the episode like a perfectly Tanya-esque conclusion though, all of the different strands and elements of her personality and the parts of her arc and journey that we've at least gotten to witness in these two seasons of TV are present there, right? There's this kind of like unbelievable surge. of potential and capability. And I love Joe's point about the point of view

because that felt like a real encapsulation of one of the missions of not only this season, but the show, which is like how much of what is unfolding is about perspective. And so the fact that we are entirely seeing that through her perspective, and we've pieced together a lot over the course of the finale about what is actually unfolding these connections between Quentin and Greg, et cetera.

But there is, even at the end, still a lot of questions and a lot of mystery, and that's kind of like preserved and intact in a nice and satisfying way because of how micro-focused we are on each individual character we're with. The fact that Tanya is able to take out all of these heavies,

like, we know that Niccolo walks around with that gun all the time and she dispensed with him in seconds, but can't, can't just like climb down the side of the boat or do something more sensible there is like, so of a piece with everything we've heard across two seasons about this like self-defeating nature at the very end of what could otherwise be a good thing. It was like so sad, but so Tanya. Something I loved about the post episode, you know, package that they put together is I think Mike White described her death as kind of like derpy, this derpy death for Tanya. But they showed the little clip of her falling off the boat while he's talking about that. And she just hits with a splash. But in the episode itself, they added that like, sound of her hitting metal, you know what I mean? That like post episode fully that they put in of like, no, she's, she's dead.

Yeah, that's what happened. I thought the high-end gays were just incredible villains in the last episode where every time you saw them, they're talking about her, but then they're like, there she is. And they, and they were just elite, elite, elite bad guys. To the bitter end, like, even near the end, I'm like, are they definitely trying to kill her? You couldn't even totally like 100% buy in that they were that sinister, but they definitely were, I think. I do have some question. I mean, like as soon as Mateo started crying, I was like, oh, okay.

All right. But when she opens the bag, she finds rope and like the three most ominous items in a bag, right? Rope duct tape and gun. But my question is. Yeah, there was no ski mask. I don't know where the ski mask was. It was the only thing missing. And like the plastic sheeting.

That's what the C is for, you know. You don't need plastic sheeting if you're doing the murder. out on the Ionian sea. But this is my question. Someone was asking me this morning, what was the plan? Like, why take her into the harbor near the hotel? Why not just do this in Palermo where you have, like, complete control of the crime scene at the villa?

I have so many questions about the death plan from the high end gaze. First of all, why not just roofier? You're pouring her wine. Just put, like, were they afraid she was going to get, like, tested or whatever? second, can there be an easier person to kill than Tanya? I would say she's like a 10 out of 10 for easy target. She's drunk all the time. She's not an athlete as we saw her falling off the boat.

They have this mafia guy. This is his job to kill people. This was their plan. They're taking her in the boat. Were there weights on the boat? Were they going to throw her off? What were they going to do? Like rope and duct tape is that's classic kind of kidnap material.

That's not murder. I don't know. So like there was a part of me. Oh, so you think it was a kidnapping possibility? No. I think, I mean, and Mike White described it as a death plot in the post-episode interview. So that ties that up. But I was like, up until the end, I was like, what was the plan?

You know? And was there a chance that she was mistaking like this threat on her life was actually something else. But no. Or change the cocaine and put like some heroin slash fentanyl in there on one of the lines. And that's it. She's dead. It feels like they had to pull her into, you know, the bay there so that her body could be discovered there so that we could start the show. Yeah.

Well, and yeah, because like that can preserve in theory some sort of cover. Even Tanya pieces together that Greg went back so he'd have the alibi. So if she's discovered in the sea in front of the resort that she's staying in, in theory, it can, it could be an accident. I guess not if they shoot her or tie her up and duct tape her and then drop her over. But certainly that would eliminate the like anything that could be traced back to a tax report. But like to the question of was the plan definitely 100% to murder her the entire time? That's certainly like where everything that Portia and Tanya are discussing and then Tanya deducing after the fact the Greg aspects of it lead us because he needs her to be dead so he can cash in. But with Quentin, there is even inside of all of this madness at the end, that little like question still because when they have that absolutely wild exchange once again about the plazos of preserving these old buildings and Tanya has that like genuinely hysterical line, like there aren't enough.

people out there that are worried about old buildings. That's the funniest line of the last thing you said in your entire life, right? But Quentin says, so glad you agree. And there was a part of me where I was like, is he still planning to just make the fundraising pitch? Like, is there a path forward here that doesn't involve a death and are all of these trappings, Niccolo, the bag, et cetera, the last resort, not necessarily plan A. Though to the Mateo point, Joe, clearly he's not not.

thrilled about how this is going down has really developed an attachment to sweet Tanya and refused to go on the yacht and participate. So we have a lot of loose ends. Hugo got away. The last thing that he saw was his partners in crime murdered. And the last thing he heard basically other than the gunshots was Tanya didn't know his name. So that's a tough one for Hugo there at the end. Portia obviously knows all this. Jack is out there. Mateo's back at the Palazza. Captain's still alive. A lot of loose ends. Well, and that's what, that was something that was intriguing that Mike White hinted at. I don't know if he was just kidding or whatever, but in the post-episode interview, he was like, does Greg get away with it?

Maybe we'll find out in a future season. And I just have to say, like, if John, John Grace ends up being the, like, lynchpin of this entire franchise, immaculate. No, it was Greg all along. We thought it was Tanya, but Greg's really the recurring character. I mean, if you were betting who was going to be out of anyone in the show, on season three, I think Greg would be the number one candidate, right? I have some questions about the high-end gays. So did they have money or they didn't?

Because they had that Palermo house. Why did they have all those pictures in there? It makes it seem like it's their house. Why is there a picture of Quentin and Greg in this house if they didn't own it? What was the point of putting that there? I think they own the Palazzo, but like, Quentin was constantly talking about the cost of the upkeep and also, you know, their house. and lifestyle or whatever.

So they're running out of money. Yeah. And there was a conversation much earlier in the season, not with this set of characters. It was actually Cameron and Daphne. They were talking about their trip to Venice previously and noting how all of these European aristocrats have these grand palazos, but they have no cash. And even though they have no cash and they're not liquid in any way, they treat these visitors like bugs.

And so that kind of sets up that this is just very much like a thing, right? So, yeah, the plazzo is his home. But, like, he has nothing to maintain it and he needs to run these cons and or murders in order to generate cash. You know the old saying, Palazzo rich cash poor? I feel like that's how we describe quit. It's tough for Quinn. So Coolidge really becomes famous in American Pie as Stiffler's mom. And this is, we're going back to 1999.

That was kind of her breakout moment. And that was a massive movie. That was an iconic character. that was like the forefront of the whole concept of a milf. I think she was like the George Washington of it, basically. That's where I learned that phrase, 100%. From John Cho and American. Right.

She does the Chris gas movies and that kind of cements her as a really good comic actress. Best in Show. Yeah, Best in Show is where she like, semenses persona that she uses. Then Legally Blonde kind of cements the I'm not just Stiffler's mom, But I'm actually like, if I'm in a movie, it's kind of fun. And then rides that for the next 20 years. But I honestly think this was her apex mountain this last episode. And I'll be interested to see what they do.

This show will get all the Emmy nominations, right? This will just clean up left and right all over the place. But, man, you're talking about that third episode with Aubrey Plaza. You're talking about Coolidge in this last episode. And then Megan Fahey, who I want to do winners and losers with you, too. Megan Fahey, I think, was probably the winner of the show just from like, I didn't know who that was before this show. Now I feel like, I'm like, is she like an A-list actress?

Like, I thought her character was kind of the one who won the show in a lot of different ways, but I thought the actress, when you just talk about somebody who's in a different spot than they were eight weeks ago, I think she has to be number one. So anyway, Joe, who do you think one of these actresses is going to win that award. Who is it for you? I mean, you can go lead and supporting, right? So like, we've got a couple options. Oh, interesting.

So that, then that opens the sex workers up for supporting. Well, yeah, and I would say that, like, me and Lucia are, if you're talking about characters who won the season, I would say me and Lucia, get their victory walk down the street at the end of the episode or the winners. But Megan Fahey, I think I completely agree with you in terms of someone whose, like, stock is on the rise post. I know we talked a lot about Theo James, but he had already been in a couple high-profile things. And I think that- Mal had already seen his penis before this season. But Megan Fahey, there's been a lot of clips circulating.

She's a, I think she got her start on Broadway and the stage. She is an incredible singing voice. So there's all these clips of her singing that have started to circulate on various social media platforms. And so I think if people are looking to cast, I mean, you know I love a musical. If White Lotus Season 3 wants to be a musical, that's great. But I think in general, if people are looking to cast someone out of this season, I think they would probably look for Megan Fahey. For sure, I agree with you.

I'm going to break Miles Hart right now. You know who she's dating in real life, allegedly? This is word on the street. I don't know if I'm breaking news. No idea. The guy who plays Albi. Oh, well, they were at a hockey game. Is that right?

Yeah, I think they're hanging out in real life. Adam DeMarco, yeah. I thought that scene with Ethan, that scene with Ethan when he tells her, I think something's going on with them and her face drops for a second and then she kind of gets it back together. I just thought everything she did in that two minutes

was as good as anything we saw this season. In general, she turned out to be the most interesting character. You had a feel for every character on this show except Mal, I don't know, she knows the guys of scumbag that she's married to. she's accepted it. She might, her older son might not be his son.

There's that moment when he's like cleaning his teeth and she's like, come talk to Bobby or whatever. And he kind of makes that face for a second. Like this kid's not even my fucking son. There's still more to unpack with her, which is why I am hoping she's in season three. I think she comes back. She's your pick for the recurring character?

She comes back with two friends. It's like a little mini-bachelorette party for one of her other friends. She doesn't have any friends. No, she is two. She's two from college that she has talked to in a while, brings them to White Lotus season three, and we get to unpack some more about. What do you think? Well, as Joe's alluding to, she did previously tell Harper that she doesn't have any women in her life, that she doesn't have any female friends, that she hasn't maintained those friendships. And I think that camp friends, maybe from camp from when she was 12.

Talk about the thrill of Juliette Litman's life if we connect White Lotus to camp in some way. I mean, the ringer might never be the same after that. But yeah, that incredible moment that you're referencing Bill where her face just sinks for a second before she kind of summons this composure. And what is ultimately, I think, you know, we've gotten these ideas that Daphne shares with Ethan here many times from her before across the season. And I think every one of the characters taps into one of the central aspects of what Mike White is interested in exploring. but I think this this bit right here from Daphne is kind of like the mission statement of what he was interested in this season, right?

It's like, what compromises are you willing to make with yourself to pursue your version of happiness? And to that friendship point, like, yes, I think there's the Cameron stuff when she's hearing this. But I think she was like, wow, Harper too? Like this person that she had bonded with over this week and really, like, revealed this vulnerable side of herself and shared things with her to the point where she had to say to her, hey, like, I said, I was pretty high last night. I said some stuff. Like, I hope we can keep that between us. And Harper's just now one other person who, for Daphne has, like, wronged her in some way or that they couldn't hold on to this thing that they had fostered. And that was, like, really tragic, too. In part because we know that from Harper's perspective, that was never really interesting to her, even though I think, like, almost against the logic in her mind, she found herself. really warming to Daphne in those middle episodes.

And the fact that Ethan and Harper kind of become Cameron and Daphne in the finale, even though they were so actively rebelling against, not, frankly, like, yes, them as people, but in Cameron specifically as a person, but much more so, like, the way they, like, told themselves things were okay, the way that they presented this facade to, from Harper and Ethan's perspective of happiness, and to like simultaneously fall into that, but also kind of realize and embrace that it wasn't really that simple and that inside of what other people might think is like a facade

or the way that you convince yourself that something is okay, like you actually can find the thing that gives you some version of peace even if it's fleeting and even if it's entwined with pain. I don't know, that felt like very true to life to me in a way that I thought was pretty incredible inside of this finale. I loved everything with the couples. I loved, the way in real, the way in. which Ethan and Harper emerge much more Cameron and Daphne than they were when they started

is so good. And I think also the way that you see the digress of men at the airport and Albi is turning his head every much the way that his father and his grandfather is. That was great, how they were layered one after another of the generations. And so I think that idea that like the two most like people in love with their own virtue, which were Albie and Harper, the way in which they turn into the thing that they had the most disdain for is such an interesting journey on this on the show. And it, and it completely works for me. I loved it. Mow said something interesting when she was talking about the facade of happiness. I think that's kind of what the White Lotus is about. That was really the common thread between season one and season two other than the

wealth. It's just these people that if you glance at them from afar and they're on a vacation, you're like, oh, they have it going. It's like Connie Britton's character in season one, right? It's like, oh, look at that family. It's a nice family, super wealthy. She's really successful. But I'm envious of those people. And then you dive into their world. It's like, no, actually, don't be envious of anything going on here. And it seems like that's what Mike White cares about. I think that's partially true. But I think also, you know, he talked about how season one was much more about class in season two. But if you look at this season and you look at the different strata of people who got like the rich, the people who are like pretending to be rich and then the

working class. Like, the Mia and Lucia friendship and bond is, like, the healthiest relationship on the show. Yeah. And then what Mia offers Valentina, which is, like, helping her discover her sexuality, but not trying to deceive her. She's like, listen, but you need a real gay woman to, like, be your partner and I'll help you. And, and sure, in exchange, I get to, like, play the piano for sure. But, like, there's still something, you know, kind of pure about that.

And then also, lest we forget the only pure lovers of this season, Isabella and Rocco. So I feel like the working class is like the place where you can find sincere emotional connection. And it's only in these upper echelons of the rich visitors where you have to have that artifice spackling over, you know, all these other problems. I think like it's a great point. And then within that, if we look at characters like portion, and Jack, they're not happy at the end because they are being so actively used by the wealthy and by the people

or the people seeking to maintain or regain their wealth, people in positions of power. The working pawns. Yeah, pawns, exactly. And like, Lucia and Mia have, their journey this season is about like breaking free of anybody else's ability to control their lives. And so like, I love that even though Mike White really clearly like laid out those

distinctions of central focus across seasons one and two with class and sex, like there are such clear and present through lines, not only in how those things connect to each other inside of the show like you're saying, Joe, but power as this great connective tissue between both, right? And so like characters who are able to, I think that's the other thing about that facade of happiness idea, Bill? It's like, yes, what you're identifying is definitely right. There's that great kind of classic, Anna Karinna idea of like happy families, unhappy families, right? And this thing that the true thing that connects all people is that like you can never really be content. But even if Harper and Ethan have gotten to the place that they originally judged, okay, you are

going through your life with this person you don't really like. It's like that part wasn't true. Cameron and Daphne love each other and they are happy together. They also are miserable together and they also make each other unhappy and those things are not actually mutually exclusive and there's a complexity there that I think is kind of amazing.

And so that idea of power and control like one of the decisions that Harper and Ethan have made consciously, though maybe that conscious level is something you continue to assess and I think the fact that Mike White at the end was like, yeah, like Cameron's not going to change. Yeah, Cameron and Devaney are happy together, but like, is there this looming cloud on the horizon?

Probably. And like, that feels very true for a lot of these different characters. They've made that decision to pursue their version of happiness, though. Like, there's an active quality to it that I think feels like the shift. And so, like, that central idea of White Lotus, like... Hold on, but wait. They're full of shit, though, because the toast is so important at the end when they sit with each other. he's got the black guy with a cut editor.

He's like, all right, to good friends. And he goes around the thing. And it's like, how are you toasting? This guy just punched you and tried to drown you seven hours ago. What is happening? Well, and like Hartford, Nathan can't believe it. But they stay at the table. Yeah.

And then they look so genuinely cozy and content at the airport. Yeah. Like genuinely cozy and content. And so I both agree that it is a realistic, read that I think what does Daphne say you don't have to know everything about someone to love them right like that that's true that some sort of like selective willful blindness is probably useful in life

but it's also a very it's a pretty cynical read also of you know the way we live now well that's what Mallor and I deal with with our spouses who have bought into our weird worlds many years ago and are just kind of stuck with us now Ethan. What a finale for Ethan. Are you two going to apologize to Ethan? No? No, no, no. Actually, I want to take a break. I want to take a break and I want to do a couple losers. And then I have more winners. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound terseptide may be able to help. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity.

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Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-99 or visit Zepbounds.lily.com. So for winners, so far, I have Daphne slash Megan Fahey. Definitely Mike White and HBO because HBO just continues to pull. this off or they have this show that hits the zeitgeist over and over again. They're able to do it, what, three times a year? They're just able to own

these Sunday nights. Yeah. And you look at the, not that Twitter trendings, everything, but you look at Twitter trending last night and it was like five different White Lotus things at one point. I have, I have a, for a loser, so the Ethan Harper

relationship, which was fine, we got to the finish line with where it went, but I did feel like it started started to get kind of one note by the sixth episode and then seventh episode, same thing, where it was just kind of Ethan with this sociopathic face and like tell me what happened. And I don't know. I didn't feel like, you know, like I thought what he did with the three generations, they kind of phased them out a little bit as the last couple episodes went along because it was

like, I kind of did this. And with Ethan and Harper, I don't know, I just felt like they were just kind of running it back, the same version of the same thing, probably around episode four. on. I got kind of bored of it by episode seven. So that's like a mild loser for me. You agree with that, Joe, or no? I think that Will Sharp was the best when Ethan was unraveling, right? Like that, you know, the sort of hemmed in performance that we saw at the beginning kind of pays off when we see him come undone at the end. But overall, I would say that Ethan is the character that worked the least for me.

But in a series where everything else is extraordinary to be just merely good is a great achievement. What do you think, Mal? You want to make your impassioned defense of Ethan? Well, Matt was biased. But go ahead, Mal. Do your defense just because you like them. Folks, what a sincere privilege to get that Ethan Harper sex scene in the finale. Mount Etna is not the only thing erupting.

The fire in. my loins watching this. What a thrill. No, I mean, I really, Bill, I think to your point about, like, balance, I feel the same way about the de Grasso clan. I would have loved to have more time with them. I felt particularly cheated out of more time with Bert in the finale. Like, we got two lines.

That was kind of, I would have loved more room for those three generations. But I, again, I think, like, to me, Daphne and Cameron and Harper and Ethan are inextricable from each other, their plot lines. And so, like, this idea of, this idea of, like, absorbing something about somebody else that you pretty actively despise and that being key to unlocking something about your own satisfaction, even if that's a little bit, like, surface level or fleeting is really interesting to me. So I think, like, what those characters unlocked thematically was probably my favorite part of the show, even if every minute with them wasn't always as compelling as some of the, other character sets. I mean, I would completely agree in terms of, you know, the way in which Mike White called called this season a bedroom farce with teeth, like the Cameron and Davney and Ethan and Harper,

like that's the best, that's the spouse swapping bedroom farce with teeth. We've literally got a connecting door. Yeah. That's what it is. But I just think of that four-person team. Yes. I don't need to hammer this because, like, Will Sharp is extremely talented and is, like, written and directed incredible things.

but like of that four-person team, I would just call him the weaker link of those four-term. Joe, what did you think of the decision not to show either a fair trist? Yeah. And which I think was definitely intentional because he wanted to leave it, not only to the imagination

of the characters, but to the imagination of us watching it. Like they, you know, one of the key moments in this last episode is Ethan and Daphne, hey, let's go take a walk to that other island over there. It looks great. And she's starting to give the sex vibes. But we don't know What happened?

Like, did she blow them? Did they have sex? What happened? You're asking the same question as Ethan asked Harper. Did you blow them? But I mean, I love this. Right. I love this.

But at the same time, I feel very certain as to what happened. Which is that Ethan and Daphne definitely fucked on that island. And Karen and Harper didn't. And that's what I think is true. They probably went at it in the lobby and then the door. I think what he envisioned? What was that at the beginning of episode six? Yeah.

When he saw them kind of going out. it and then the door knocked and they sketched i think that's probably what happened i mean what's entirely possible and again i don't want to crib off someone who was talking me about this morning but like what is entirely possible is like it would have happened if he hadn't shown up at the room you know what i mean but like yes um but i don't think it did happen why didn't he ask that that that was so interesting to me like yeah because because harper was so focused on it was just like a you know a two a two second kiss it meant nothing i was drunk and then i loved one of the moments i liked the most in the finale.

It was so, it was so small, but when Ethan's like, so it wasn't about the hat, you know, like the, and you didn't say, well,

why are you harping on the hat? But like, yeah, because that was, that's the intentionality of it. It's like, so you went up to the room to fuck this guy.

And the fact that you didn't, doesn't mean that that wasn't why you went up there in the first place. So I was so surprised that he didn't say, well, what if I hadn't knocked,

right? Like, if the whole thing is you came up so quickly and there's still that, that miss, the math of the missing time. but like, well, what if he hadn't? Then what?

And I agree with Joe. I think like, I also feel that, that Ethan and Daphne fucked. Me too. But the two things. One, if we think back, because like, where are they? That Solabella, that little island. Joe, you know, it made me think of high tide on House of the Dragon with the little sandbridge. Amazing.

We need to go. We need to access a castle at some point via sand bridge. But great. You meet Sicily when? That's the question. When Quentin was telling Tanya about that locale and the history of it earlier in the season, she's talking about the powerful investors in the history of this person who lived there. She said there were these powerful local investors, if you know what I mean, excuse me, he said,

Quentin, this is Quentin. There were these powerful local investors, if you know what I mean, who wanted the house, wanted the island, but the old battle acts wouldn't budge. They made her all kinds of offers, and then one day her body was found in a heap at the bottom of the rocks. And so, like, they could have gone anywhere for. that moment. We could have had this approach to any location in Sicily. But calling back to that story reminds us like Daphne's a character who has had to make these compromises on the one hand. And there's like a sadness there, but also like a character who budges and survives. Not a character

who ends up in that heap, literally or figuratively, even if there is the emotional heap in a moment before she kind of pulls herself back together. Well, and is the one who has the illegitimate kid out of everyone on the show. Is that your read on that, both of you? Because that's obviously the incredibly popular theory. 100%. I think they laid some breadcrumbs on that one. Yeah. Theo James said in interview, he's like, this kid is probably not his kid. And I was like, oh, okay. The toothpicking thing was the key. Yeah. The fact that that kind of demeanor. He was reluctant to come to the phone. I think that land bridge is so important, though, because like they're walking across that land bridge to the island.

And Ethan has to make a conscious decision to go forward and what that means to become, you know, because there was an earlier scene a couple episodes ago where Cameron is like, everyone cheats. He's like, everyone does. And Ethan asked him like, oh, they do? In a way, not like, that's wrong, but like, oh, I didn't know that. Oh, is that what everyone does? Okay.

You know, and so, yeah, this like seduction. And then also the very beginning, Harper says something about, like, is this who we are now? And it's important to remember that Ethan and Harper are so newly rich, right? And so they're trying to understand and navigate the morals of this new level of society they found themselves in and finding themselves seduced into this reality. You know, they've said throughout the season, I don't lie to you. I always tell the truth. I always tell the truth. I don't lie to you.

I never lie. I never lie, never lie. And then they find out at the end that like, never true. That's not the path to happiness, at least not at this level of society they found themselves in. Well, just FYI, they break up in about a year.

Great. They're not making it. Who makes it further? Cameron and Daphne or Ethan and Harper? Cameron and Daphne are, they never break up. They would have broken up by now. I don't know.

She mentioned Maldives. He mentioned scuba diving. That's the date line plot that we heard at the beginning of season. He might be dead next vacation. Season five, we circle back. By the way, if they want to come back for season three, wonderful. Daphne and Cameron, I had a couple more winners. Theo James, I think should be somebody who leads stuff. Like to me, like we're always talking about, hey, let's find more stars, who could be lead actors, who could be somebody who can carry a movie or whatever. Like, that guy's bringing everything to the table. There's a charisma to him. I thought he was

great. I thought this episode, particularly he was great. I would have him. All right. Another winner, just to shift course a little bit. Scammers. So scammers were the big winner of the show, right? The, me and Lucia. There's a bowl of dead dead scammers, right? Went better for some than for others. But Greg. Greg ends up getting what he wants. He had to get out of the pre-dop and he needed Tony to die, right? Even if it was a roundabout way and all the people that he hired to do this, but there's odds are season three. Greg comes in with Tanya's fortune. So the two people that really won were me and Lucia and Greg,

if you're just talking about who actually won wealth from this season. So I don't know what Mike White's saying about that. Do you want to know my favorite? So Mike White gave this great interview on Fresh Air with Terry Gross, and he was talking about his various inspirations for the season. There's a lot, as Mal has talked about for Survivor DNA in here, obviously. but he talked about how he thought of Lucia and Mia as the Laverne and Shirley

of the season. Oh, that's great. And how, like, Leverne and Shirley were always trying to, like, break their way into a party they weren't invited to. So, like, to watch these girls, like, Shlmel, schlma,

their way down the street at the end of the season, I was just, like, absolutely thrilled. I was so happy. Yeah. Well, you could tell he was happy, too. Everything. So Mia ends up, the beginning, she's, I don't know, pretty, pretty kind of thrown off by the whole scene, right?

By the end, she's got a job in the hotel. She's got as much confidence as Lucia does. And then Lucia pulls off the scam, which I don't, do you think Albi knew the whole time? What's your take, Mal on deep down? Does he know what's going on? And this is just his way to get back at his dad? Well, it's not like he is in a position where he can't, consider the possibility because his his dad literally says to him, how are you going to make it in

life if you're this big of a mark? Right. He asked him for the money. I love his trailer. He was delivery of that. I thought it's so good. He was fantastic in the finale, I thought, like, fantastic. And I really hope that this is his grand return to our lives because I missed him.

This was a delight. And in the finale, and like the quiet moment where he's just looking at the photos and crying alone in his hotel room, devastating and agonizing. But this conversation with Alby, little things the way he's like playing with his phone, the anxiousness of being called out by someone who sees him really clearly because he is kind of that person too,

this question of change across the generations. I think Alby has to, you know, his dad's just saying to him like, this is a con. You're being conned. Like you don't see this. So he's definitely aware that it's possible. And I think the fact that the second he wakes up

and sees that Lucia isn't there and has heard the door click, he's like, fuck. And then says to, like, oh, dad was right. Yeah, says to Portia at the airport. Yeah, she played me.

like he it had to be there on some level in his mind as a possibility but he didn't want to believe it could be true because even though he said to Portia at that dinner earlier in the season like you know women like to say that they want a nice man but they they don't and this was this possibility that maybe like this it could be true that the fact that he was kind as lucia told him would be this great virtue and this thing that made him not only sweet but genuinely desirable, like, would be real. It's, like, also the thing that made him so easy to play, so easy to fool. Like, he wanted to be fooled.

He wanted somebody to want him for that reason. They had the two different versions of the same getting played, right? He has his version. She, Portia, has her version where this guy, Jack, who just gets less attractive and more awful by the day, finally, like, they're hanging out whatever location is. Like, I got to take a shit. Unbelievable. You didn't think it was romantic what he said.

I got to take a shit. And then I'm going to get your drinks so you can chill out. That was, oh my God. Tranquilo. You need to tranquilo. I thought it was a great idea to have them run into each other at the airport and be like, yeah, let me get your number. Maybe like my whole fantasy of how my Italian, maybe this is the safer version of it.

We could turn into the next Cameron and Daphne. But that's again, like it's all of a piece, right? because, like, it's really this thing that Portia didn't want, you know, I wish that he would just, like, get my heart rate up more. She has, like, I think one of the things that you both have, I've really loved hearing you talk about all season long is, like, the danger of a fantasy or the way that the pursuit of the fantasy can kind of mislead you. And, like, there's wisdom there, but I think, like, this is what's so, like, intellectually and emotionally compelling about the end of this show is, I think, for every single character,

you can say, like, there's something sort of aspirational about where they end up and then something like pretty devastating. Like there's this with Albi and Portia, there's this part of it that's like, oh, yeah, this thing that maybe you didn't think was right for you, maybe there's something there. And there's kind of something nice about that or comforting about being able to like make this progress in your life

and make your way back towards somebody. But like, Porsche was just not into this guy. And like breaking out of a bad habit, cool progress. But like, she didn't want this. Also, Porsche's never, like, she's never going to be okay with the fact that she, like, made the decision to go to the airport rather than do everything she could to try to save Tanya. Not that, like, Tanya earned her loyalty in any regard, but it's just sort of like, but that's a big decision she made to not act more than she did. I mean, she did something. She called Tanya.

That was something. I loved it. Yeah. She shows up with her. She's got the cheesy disguise on. The scarf around. hat? What was that disguise? I don't understand. By the way, Alby tells her like, yeah, they found this one of the guests is dead and then this boat blew out. Yeah. And she's not like,

I'll be right back. I'm going to the police to share all of my information. She's like, she was like, oh my God. I hope tiny is okay because Tony was awful. And I mean, like, Mike White's explanation post episode is sort of like, is possible she's so rattled and scared. I mean, and it was scary when Jack was like, these are scary people. Absolutely. Get the fuck out of here. You know what I mean? So. But also when she called Tanya to say, hey, I have this really bad feeling that like something terrible is happening. What was Tanya's response? It was like, wait, who's in danger?

You or me? Like that was Tanya's genuine response. It was like, wait, if it's you, we're probably five. Is it me? It was like horrifying. No, but also when Tanya, yeah, and Tanya's like, oh, it's just my lot in life. Well, I feel like two ways about it, right? She's talking about it.

She's like, it's my lot in life to have assistance and they like steal medication for me and disappear. And I'm like, well, that is literally what happened. That is true. That is literally. what happened. But at the same time, like, we watched the way that she treats these people who work with and for her this entire time. And that despite all that, Portia was actually trying to make her way back to her the whole time. I thought Tanya was such a greatly developed character.

Like, just her narcissism would just pop out. Even at the end, when she's standing over Quentin, who's bleeding to death, and she's like, was Greg having an affair? Unbelievable. What was going on? It's just like, of course. Of course that was going to be her thing. And I just want to say A plus delivery of Tom Holland for like the way that the blood dribbled out of his mouth as he was dying. Another winner for me just quickly is Tom Hollander, sorry.

Haley Lou Richardson, I thought she, look, that character in the wrong hands might not have been great because I thought that was probably the hardest one to pull off by the end of it

when it seems like she's going to get killed by Jack for about five minutes there and she's interrogating him and she's like, what's going on? Are you going to kidnap me? And I thought there was like some real drama. And it felt like,

a really good lifetime movie for like two minutes. We're like, oh my God, they're not going to kill Portia. I thought she did a good job. And I've liked her and other stuff too, but it made me excited to see what's next for her the next couple of years. Because I thought that was a really cool character. And I don't know if that in the wrong hands. I just don't know if that character were to work the same way. Well, I think what I really love is to go back to that fantasy theme, Mal, like that juxtaposition of her fantasy of like,

I want someone to, like, throw me out of bed. And then later we see her just, like, locked under Jack's arm in that bed, like, you know, knowing that he's taken her phone, knowing that she's somewhere where she doesn't really speak the language and has no way of getting away. Right. You know, I thought that was the perfect distillation of even better, I think, than the de Grasso women screaming at, you know, F. Murray Abraham. I thought this was a better, you know, cold wake-up call to the danger of a fantasy. I thought it was really good. Bill, to your Porsche point, I was, I think, most afraid watching the Porsche jack scenes, like, really had, like, a tightness in my chest that, like, something truly terrible was about to happen.

And just in terms of the mystery of it all, like, we've all talked about this a lot. You guys have talked about this a lot all season long, like, not watching White Lotus for the mystery, but I think it's just such a value ad of, like, being able to parse the theories. and consider all of the possibilities. And to the final moments of the finale, there were 30 different outcomes that I would have easily believed. And I think would have been,

that we would have had the groundwork made to support any possible outcome of, like, who got killed or how or what led to that moment. And like, the tension that you're feeling in those Porsche Jack moments was just really supreme and pretty sad. And like, I don't know, you know, a Porsche calling Tanya is what,

when it finally clicks for Tanya. And I think that's so interesting too, because to your point about the missing phone and things like that, Porsche really quickly pieces together. And even before that, the day prior, she's something's like she's feeling.

It's not right. Like she can sense and deduce that something is not as it should be. Tomia is holding a photo of her husband in her hand. As Quentin says, uh, let me think. What's a like dude's name?

Yeah, it's Steve. Should we go with Steve? That's not great. It sounds right too. Oh, interesting. It's like uncanny. He looks just like great. Wow.

You can have the evidence in your hand that someone is fooling you. And if like you're willing to tell yourself that it's not true in pursuit of that fantasy, then you can do that until the very last second where you no longer can. Well, I like Porsche, she says to Jack it when he's like my job. And she's like, how am I your job?

That whole part was really good. But before that, when she's, calls Tanya, where she's like, oh, I meant to tell you this. He was kind of fucking his uncle. She's like, I know you like him. I just couldn't bear to tell you. And you're like, I don't know, that might be the moment where Portia's like, maybe I don't owe this woman anything.

She wouldn't even tell me that, right? I had that as a loser. Not telling someone right away if you saw their new boyfriend fucking his uncle. I think we all learned, like maybe volunteer that information a tiny bit sooner. I also think as a loser, going back to Italy to see your ancestors, feels like the bloom is off that rose. You were asking last week, I think, Bill, that, like, whether or not this was, you know, something Mike White had experience.

And he was talking about how he did take a trip with his dad. I think they're Swedish. Like, he did take a trip with his dad. His dad, of course, that he famously did the amazing race with. There's a lot of stuff around his dad in this season because, for, for you. First of all, his dad, there's, you know, this whole, like, very famous story about his dad being, um, of, uh, you know, a religious person and then coming out and discovering that he's, like, gay when Mike White was like 11. So, like, later in life, his dad discovers that he's gay and then, like, all the things that their family went through. So I really see a lot of that in the Valentina character, this, like, enormous amount of empathy for someone discovering, like, coming in touch with their sexuality later in life. Um, and then also with Bert, I mean, Mike White, talked very emotionally on Fresh Air about his dad has very recently sort of slid into dementia. And so this idea of Bert's confusion, I think, and the multi-generational, like these men and their

relationship and their shared trauma and their patterns and all that sort of like that strikes me as like Mike White taking this like overblown operatic, we're in Sicily, all of a is happening stuff, and also permeating it with all this very personal stuff that he's working through with his own family, which is, I think, why you have this, like, spine in these hugely overblown fantastical scenarios, you have this spine of emotional authenticity. And that's what, that's what makes White Lotus so compelling, you know, that keeps it tethered, um, to earth. I have Burt and F. Murray Abraham as a winner. Our Achilles heel is our Achilles cock. It's like a Greek curse.

Just unbelievable. Bert, Bert didn't have a, they didn't run a lot of plays for Bert in the episode seven, but episode six was kind of his big episode. But I thought it was an important character. I really liked the theme of like you kind of turn into your parents. You know,

like that little brief seat in the airport was really important. It's like, I'll be screwed. He's just going to end up like these guys. He's going to be just as unhappy as these other two. And this is how it's going to play out. Right. He's got his, like, his mask of virtuosity. But then, like, he makes this deal with his dad where he's like, $50,000 and I'll put in a good, put in a good word with you with mom.

You know, and you're like, oh, wow, you're just, just the ideal male feminist. Thank you, Albi, for everything that you do. He's going to get into the godfather. He's going to really start to appreciate it. It's going to be fine for him. That with, with Albi and Dom was another great example of that, like, almost like, how are we as viewers supposed to feel? What is the message of the show? You two have talked about this all season. Like, what is the morality of White Lotus and how we kind of track and unfur all that episode after episode? And, like, there's a part in that first exchange between Albie and Dom when Albi goes over and asks for the money. I think Lucia could have asked for more, by the way. Just throw that out there. But, like, where you're, and this,

the other thing you've been talking about all season long is this transactional nature of sex and interaction, right? And so like, sex between father and son, but there's a transactional nature here to, like, the way forward, not only for their relationship, the two of them, but their family at large, you do this for me, this thing that you don't want to do and think is wrong. I will do this thing for you that I have told you before I don't want to do and think is wrong, right? We think back to that godfather trip and like, I'll be saying men love the godfather because they feel emasculated by modern society. Like you're saying falling into this pattern and this thing that he is pretty actively

rejected. And there's a part of us that like doesn't want that for any of these characters to do these things that like they on some level don't want to do and think is wrong. But I have to say like when Dom told Albie that he transferred the money and then Albie and he's like, you know, this isn't why I did it. But if you want to do this thing. And then Albi's like, I already did it. And then says, I love you and then kisses bird on the head.

I was like pretty moved by all of that. Like, yes, on the one hand, they've made these compromises with themselves. And there's something that is sort of dismaying about that. But on the other hand, like, and we have those three head turns, as you said. And there's this question of like what you pass down and whether you can really change and how you break out of that cycle. We see these signs of change for Dom, but then we see this passbound behavior for Albi. But like those three people are in a better place together now than they were when they set out for the trip. And like there's a little seed of promise inside of the other stuff.

There's, I mean, there's catharsis in the way in which, I mean, certainly Dom calling his father out on his bullshit. You know what I mean? Like they are having conversations about the damage that was done in their family generationally that they didn't have before this trip. So there is, you know, there is a sort of like. in vacation in in vacation varitas sort of thing and then like coming on starting on the other side but i do think ultimately you know and and mike white talked about this in the post episode uh package where he was like there's a spark of hope that bert can make like that dom can make like some sort of measure of change what did you guys make of just really quickly this is very frivolous but what did you

make the fact that like we already talked about how laurra durn is the voice of the wife but he's looking at photos and it's like some other actress like as as as as the wife, Bill, did your heart sink? You're like, oh, no, we're not getting lower Dern the way I wanted her in the finale. Maybe we'll get her in a different way in season three. Ooh, I love that. I would love that. I have, speaking of all those guys as one of the losers of this show, men?

Like the females are the ones that really win in all these different ways in season two. And like, who got the Ws out of the dudes? Anybody? As he said, for now, Greg. Greg, that's it. We'll see. The piano player. The three generations,

the three generations are closer, but really, like, Albi goes from complaining about the godfather at the beginning of the trip to by the end of it, he's just checking out chicks in the airport. You go through Cameron and Ethan. Ethan's, I don't know. I'm glad he had a night of good sex with his wife,

but he's coming out of this, completely damaged. Cameron, who the fuck knows where that guy's life is going? I don't know. It just seems like you think like me and Lucia, I think Porsche probably ends up as fucked up as that week it was. I think it was probably like a decent experience for on down the line, Daphne. Harper's probably in a better place, but it seems like the woman won. Maybe Jack is now out from under the thumb of, you know, the Quentin Cabal. I got to go take a shit. And maybe, you know, maybe we can just celebrate that Rocco is back on the front desk with his bride to be as well. Yeah, Rocco, big winner.

You know? Rocco. Simple couple. Another loser. Pre-ups. Because now this would make me not want to have a pre-up if it's like, well, if you die, they get anything anyway. Now, now I'd be scared. I don't have a pre-up.

Couldn't you just take care of that in your will? If I mysteriously die. Yeah. It just seems like if you're going to, I don't know. I'm not a legal expert nor do I have half a billion dollars like Tanya, but it seems to be like if you were going to go through the trouble of setting up a pre-up,

you might also amend your will to account for some sort of eventualities such as this. I don't know. Though I guess the idea is that if she died of natural causes, whatever the case would be, and they had actually gone on to live together happily that she would want Greg to have her money. Well, you could say this was probably not natural causes,

three people dead on a boat and then she fell to her death and was found drowned. They don't know how it happened. Pretty suspicious. Another winner for me. Sam Stryker on Twitter, a tweet that has almost 85,000 likes at this point. He tweeted, cities should have to bid to host the next season of the White Lotus like the Olympics. You'd think like the San Domenico Palace, which was another winner of this. Now it's like, that's, I'd never heard of that.

Now it's like that would be one of the hotels I would want to go to. It would be funny if cities and hotels did bid on season three. Like you figure for the next location, I have no idea where it's going to be, but they could go like African safari or they could go like a glamping. They could go to some fancy like outdoor thing or you just go super luxurious again. You go to the Bahamas or you go to St. Bart's. Maybe you go to there could be like a Thailand thing like where where what was that? Naomi Watts movie where there's a tsunami they can do like a thing like that.

I don't know. Where do you see them going next year, Joita? Someone emailed me and suggested Singapore and I really like that as like because Mike White talked about sort of Eastern religion, which I have questions about Mike White tackling Eastern religions. I have some questions about that.

But if you're talking about like super luxe, you know, there are a lot of possibilities. but Singapore is a really interesting one. Broke down palace? Maybe get Claire Dan's back? Yeah, call Kate Beckinsale. What is she doing?

Delighting me on Instagram, but she could delight me in a season of White Lotus. So, you know. Now, I'm a little worried about religion as a theme for season three. Can we stick with money and sex? Do we have to go down that road? Yeah.

He said death at least, but I just got a little worried about and take, like, poking at Easter religion. I was like, I have some questions. Yeah, the idea of like satire. Yeah. We'll see. Yeah.

Singapore would be great. Thailand would be great. I'm still, you know, Daphne threw out the Maldives, and I agree I would love to spend more time with Daphne. So I'm up for a Maldives season. I think personally, I'm really invested in a winter white lotus.

Like I don't think that's going to happen, at least not next. Oh, like a ski white lotus. Yeah. A ski-launched white lotus is very appealing to me. I want people nestled by the five. fire. I want...

So like in Switzerland or somewhere? Like some crazy European ski location? Yeah, let's hit the Alps. Let's hit the Alps. And I think Mike White floated at one point, like, the idea of doing a political convention at one of these hotels. So like, I love the idea of like... Obviously, that's not next season, I guess, because he's on the... But what was fascinating to me is that he wanted...

He was going to do sort of high-powered, corporate... money power was his idea for season two. And then they scouted the location in Sicily. And when he got to the location, he was like, Oh, no, this is the sex season. And it was just sort of like, oh, that's so fascinating to me to be, to have your season determined by the location that you scouted. You're like, oh, the theme will be this.

That's fascinating. I want Mike White to know something. If he's saying the words, this is the sex season, Mali Rubin, blind in. Does that say no more? I need to say one other thing. A couple quotes before. I want to do MVP ballots and then we'll go.

I loved when Cameron did the whole, what was he saying? Like if you might succeed, you'll cause harm to all the sad losers of the world. He said that and then Harvey Plus is like, you're an idiot. I love that part. I loved it. Ethan and Daphne when she says,

you don't have to know everything to love someone, a little mystery is kind of sexy. you do whatever you have to do not to feel like a victim in life, just use your imagination. Follow by a little island boinking. I enjoyed that. We mentioned our Achilles here is our Achilles cock. It's like a Greek curse. Tour de Force.

Yeah, that's it. All right, MVP. So, Joanne in our little weird sports world that Mallory and I live in. Come on. We have most valuable players at the end of the season. We argue about these most valuable players. Well before the season ends. We're doing it right now in the NFL.

There's four weeks left and people are arguing about whether Jalen Hertz and Patrick Mahomes, which one of those two are the MVP. There's four games left. We still argue about it. That's what we do. This one, the season's over.

I'm going to give you, I think we should go around the horn. We'll each go, our number one MVP. Maybe we'll do a top three. Is it character or performer? Yeah. It can be whatever you want.

Or I guess if it's character, it's got to be character slash actor. her. Let's say that. So if you're picking whoever, you got to. So my MVP, I think, is Daphne and Megan Fahey. I think she won the season. She was the most interesting

from beginning to end. I think in real life, she ended up in a better place. I never really totally figured her out. I figured out all the characters on the show except her. There was more layers. There was more things to peel. And that's my vote. What do you have, Joanna?

I'm going to pull a Mallory and cheat and go for the double team of me and Lucia. Okay. Simonea Tobasco and Beatrice Grano. And what I loved finding out is that these two women have been like best friends in real life for 10 years and they auditioned together. Oh, wow. I didn't know that.

Yeah. And their chemistry was just so like palpable and charming in the way that, I mean, like, I think we can each of us make a good case here because the season opens with Daphne. Like Mike White is obviously very interested in Daphne. and it closes with Mia and Lucia. And I, yeah. Now, I had them as number two on my ballot. What do you have for number one?

I'll go with a duo as well because I think this season was so much about relationships and those dynamics. I am going to go with Daphne and Cameron as my MVP of the season. Just every single scene was a banger. There was simply not a moment that wasn't incredibly entertaining with the two of them and any other character they were with. any setting they were in. So I think they have to be the pick. You know what? That's a good point because I think when you know a TV show and like a plot or direction

has really hit with a character or two characters when you can be like they could easily spin these two off into their own show and I would 100% watch the pilot. You don't want to be at a holiday party with the dark triad of Cameron's firm? You don't want to sign me up fucking immediately. You don't want to watch me and Lucia scam rich dummies. I would watch that too. I did. They also would have been my,

my, they also would have been my runner up as well. I love them. Yeah, there's two spin-off pots that I would watch absolutely an entire season. I would watch them and I would definitely watch Cameron and Daphne back in the real world and her like, all right,

I'm going to go, I'm going to go work out with my trainer, Johnny. Oh, no. All right. So I have me and Lucia as my number two. Who'd you have for number two, Joanna? Daphne. Okay.

Yeah. Okay. So we all have the same one and two in some order, basically. Okay. So you had. Man, Lucia. Yeah. My number three, the San Domenico Hotel.

I think the location was incredibly important. Just Sicily and just everything about it. I loved go. We talked about going to see where the godfather were Apollonia died. I thought they used Italy perfectly. Italy became a character in all the right ways. And then there was like this whole Sicily thing that they did. What was the movie they ripped off in episode three, like shot by shot, Joanna?

Oh, Laventura. Yeah. So they had that. Also, like, not an awesome idea to mess with the locals in Sicily. I think that theme was banged home as well. But just in general, that would be my number three, the hotel resort and Italy. What do you have for number three? Mallory and I like to, I'm just going to answer your point really quickly and say,

Mallory and I love to talk about the closed captioning on shows. There was a good old Mount Etna erupting close captioning. That was really fantastic in this episode. Yeah. Also got some nice kisses and moans. My favorite subtitle. Love a kisses and moans. I'm going to get him late, but he never bored me for one single solitary second or look.

It's Tom Hollander as Quinted. I thought it was incredible. Fantastic. He was. Absolutely fantastic. He was great. He'll be, so the best supporting actor category. Yeah.

I think he's. Tough one for this season. I think he is an absolute luck. Did you ever see Hannah with Sersha Ronan? He plays a great, terrifying Euro-Trash sociopath in that. And I really should have been thinking about that performance when analyzing what Quintam was up to in the season. Is he your number three, Mal? Who's your number three?

I'm torn between Quentin as a character and the Michael Apperioli comeback. Yeah. Which I just think it was amazing. And like even, it's interesting to even think back to like, think back to your first pod that you two did

where it's like, is he playing himself? Is he playing a character, right? And that was a question for like many of the performers who were cast in the show. And like, I don't know. It was just, it was wonderful to be back with him

for a season of TV. And like, I guess you, could even then pan back from that and just say like the casting. Maybe my pick is the casting because it's of a piece of what you're saying about location, like these ingredients that you have the fashion, the location, the casting, like the alchemy of a white lotus season is one of the most kind of incredibly precise things happening in TV right now. It's kind of amazing. Like you miss a couple of these ingredients and the entire thing is off. But every person you just

look back now at the season as a whole and it's like, yes, this. was, I mean, I know you two don't feel that way about my beloved Ethan. But other than that. Ethan was fine. It was fine. Yeah, he was surpassed. It was great. The casting was, I'm going with casting.

Yeah, in real time. I'm amending. Casting. Your Imperioli point, I was thinking about this in the last episode was, um, it was kind of like an acoustic performance by him of, of Christopher. Like at the end, he really stripped it down by the end because the first couple episodes, he's dialing it up and it's like, oh my God, this guy might go off the rails. So by the end, there's like a weird piece to him that I liked.

As you both know, I'm a soprano's expert. So I... What a hole. It makes me so mad. My number four, I'll just give you my four and five. I have Tanya slash Coolidge is four and I have Quentin as five. Yeah, Tanya has to be there as well. And then, oh, you know what?

She really came around for me. It wasn't working at the beginning. So I just want to give her a shout here at the end is Sabrina impatiatoris Valentina. I thought Valentina at the end, like the whole arc of her character, I was really swept away. Bye.

Yeah, they landed the plane on that. No love for Giuseppe. Yeah, that one, I felt like that could have gone either way. And I mean, that's like one of the things about this season is I don't, I don't feel like they botched anything. There was no, usually with these shows, there's that one, I wish they could have done that differently. It didn't really happen in this one.

All right. White Lotus, season two. Last question. You can take one character from season two and bring them this season three. So Greg is on the table here. Yeah. If you want to keep the tanya ties. I think it's interesting with Greg.

I wonder, you know, because I know for a fact when they did season one, they thought it was one season. That's it, right? then they decided, I wonder like if Greg, if they had a do-over on the Greg actor, all due respect to that guy, but he's like that guy.

I wonder if they would have gone a little more hardcore with that actor and done, maybe not like Brad Pitt, but maybe like one level below. That's one of those like law and order casting spoilers. If you cast Brad Pitt as Greg, we're like, well,

well, Greg's definitely going to be heard. Yeah. So it's got to be like one notch below that. but definitely a higher level than the guy who played Greg. Because Greg is now, you know, somebody that could be a foundational piece. But my pick, I said it earlier, would be Daphne. I would have her come back with two friends from camp. It would be the greatest moment of Juliet's life.

They're reconnecting. They haven't seen each other in 20 years. And there we go. So who would you pick, Gio? Let's say Mia gets to transfer to a different White Lotus property. And she is the singer in a different White Lotus bar. in Singapore? Mm-hmm.

Or in Switzerland in the Alps? Yes. I think she would look great in faux fur. Mia. Okay. I'm going with Portia. Oh. Porsche ends up at the political convention at the business conference in our ski lodge in the

Alps in season three. And maybe through Porsche, we get the necessary update on Craig to just close that loop. But we don't necessarily have. Greg in season three. I think Porsche would be a fun character to continue with, though I would be obviously delighted to see Daphne again. So Portia, like now she's

the lead assistant to some tech billionaire who's going to ski with his family in the weekend and she's like a way more corporate version of Porsche. Well, that sounds like we'd need a time jump if we got like a way more corporate version. Well, it's going to be, it will take at least a year and a half, right?

Year and a half, two years. I don't know. I mean, I feel like that's one of the things about White Lotus is like you go to a place and you make a season of TV, right? They could do these pretty fast. They turned it out pretty quickly and it's not a long, and it's not a long season. But I do know that, yeah, it's, I think that Mike White said he wanted to like stay closer to home, like, to be near his dad right now. So I don't know if they're like going to film, you know, closer, closer to California or something like that. Matt, what if they merged Cameron and Daphne, Mike White, just passed them off to the lady who did the affair?

I mean. And then the affair comes back. Sign me up. That would be absolutely wonderful. Boy, I could see them in Montauk, absolutely. Yeah. They moved to the Hantons. Do you guys get checks from Showtime for like single hand and we do it?

We do it purely for the pleasure of loving the affair. Purely for the pleasure. The saddest moment in the history of the prestige TV podcast is when me and Mallory do season one of the affair as an entire Hall of Fame season and we just break down every single episode.

Oh my God. You have to call me in as a pitch hitter for Joshua Jackson scenes. All right. So that's it for the White Lotus. We have, I guess we have yellow jackets coming in March. When does Succession coming, Joanna?

I heard spring. And then the last. last of us, we're going to blow out next month on this feed. So be ready for that. Mallory Rubin, it was an absolute pleasure. Joanna Robinson, you're my White Lotus companion. Chris Sutton, it was great to have you produce this episode. Thanks to everybody who is listening.

Go listen to Mallory and Joanna and the House of R on the Ringervverse feed as well. And we'll see you next time on the White Lotus.