The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘The White Lotus’ Season 2 Finale Theory Extravaganza

Episode Date: December 8, 2022

Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin convene for a deep dive, as they are wont to do, into the myriad theories circulating the internet and their brains concerning the mysterious finale ending of Season 2 of ‘The White Lotus.’ They are joined by television writer and podcast host Starlee Kine to go through each character grouping and discuss their predictions and the internet’s predictions. Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Guest: Starlee Kine Producer: Sasha Ashall Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Find Ollie's sleep solutions for the whole family at ollie.com. That's OLLLY.com. The Prestige TV podcast feed, I'm Joanna Robinson, joining me for this very special White Lotus finale theory extravaganza. It's the great Mallory Rubin.

Hi, Mallory. How are you? Oh, Joanna, it's just a joy to gaze into the Sicilian blue waters with you once again. I'm so excited to hear. You know that I love a theory. You love a theory. I've never been to Sicily. Not sure if you can tell.

Be cool. Act like you've been here before, Mallory. Anyway, we love theories. Mallory and I on the podcast that we do, House of R, we talk about a lot of theories. But I thought I would bring in an added expert into a show. You may know her from her work on Search Party. She's working on the upcoming season of Dave.

It is Starly Kine. Hello, Starley. How are you? Starly's here mainly because I have spent a long time trading TV theories with her via Twitter DM. This is how we watch television together. And I made the huge mistake of not following her guidance when we're trying to crack the case on the first season of Marravee's down. So I will never ignore a star. Riley theory again, ever again.

So that is why she is here with us today to talk about some White Lotus theories. We thought we would just break down a bunch of theories that were like emailed in, then I saw on Reddit, all that sort of stuff. Just because we read a theory definitely does not mean we believe in a theory. We're in fact going to weigh in and talk about whether or not we think this is a good theory. Starly has already told us that she is pretty anti most of these theories. And I want to hear why. So I'm really excited for that. To be very, very clear, we have not seen the finale.

In fact, is my understanding that no one has seen the finale. They are not sending it out at all. So this is not informed by any spoilers whatsoever. We have not seen the episode. Also, I watched the trailer for the finale once. I think Starley watched it once. Mallory, did you go Zepruder on it? How did you feel about the finale?

I actually just watched it for the first time before the pod because I had watched the episode six on the screener, which doesn't have the teaser. So just have a treat of checking this out. Wow. In our conversation, there's going to be like one mention as far as I'm concerned about the finale trailer. But other than that, no other, you know, information from the finale is seeping its way into this conversation. We want to run down really quickly sort of like the state of play, like what we know before we get into like what we wonder might happen. So I'm going to start us off with this sort of state of play.

The most information we have comes from this cold open we got at the beginning of, and like we should say, Mike White has been made it very clear that like White Lotus, as far as he's concerned, is not a murder mystery show. Also, season one was not really a murder. It was like manslaughter, somewhat of an accident sort of thing. So there are plenty of people who might be listening to this saying, this is not how I like to watch this show at all. This is not a mystery box, who done it, sort of show for me at all. But it is for plenty of people.

That's how plenty of people like to watch the show. So that's sort of what we're going to talk about here. Starley, what do you want to say about that? I think he is purposely putting lines in that are jokes. I think there's some very real stuff he's putting in. And there are actual clues. But I think all the lines that are like, you can read into it and be like, this means that they're going to be the one that dies.

I think he's very intentionally putting in a way to amuse himself. And I think that is the what he's playing to the murder mystery people. And I think he is serious about the mystery and the murder, but I think those lines are completely meant to throw you off and be jokes. I mean, yeah, your first response to when I sent you the outline of theories over was like red herrings, all of them. Mallory, would you be surprised if this was just like every single one of these was a complete red herring? No, not at all. Not at all. I think like, I'll say more broadly, I love a theory, as you know, Joe.

love to talk about theories with you. I don't watch, this is a weird thing to say in a White Lotus finale preview theory pop, but I don't necessarily watch White Lotus actively searching for clues and thinking about theories the way I watch like an MCU show,

say. But I have had a blast thinking about some of these, and I find it actually freeing to go into the finale with very little attachment to whether any of these are right or wrong. Like, I think that there's a lot of joy

that we can take collectively in parsing those clues, even if that joy leads us to discarding them and identifying them as things that are, as lights out in the sea or a siren song that's meant to lead us astray, right? I, we're going to chat in a few minutes about Mike White's Survivor player, but there is a Mike White quote about Survivor

that I think is maybe relevant to this in terms of how he'd used twists. So I'll put a pin in that for now and return to that. Perfect. Yeah, and I think that's my, like, my number one philosophy around all theories is that, like, hold it loosely. I say this all the time, right? Like, don't jam yourself up going into something with, like, a concrete expectation that this has to happen because then you're, like, bound to be disappointed.

Or if it plays out exactly as you expected, then that's kind of boring, too. So, you know, like, they're fun to talk about. They're fun to wonder about, but, like, hold them loosely. So let's start with the cold open, which is sort of our most concrete information that we have. which is three characters we know are alive. Valentina and Rocco. Rocco delivers the news to Valentina about what's going on, bodies-wise. They both of them seem pretty surprised and innocent and stressed out in a way that, like,

one might be if one were not involved in said deaths. So seemingly innocent and alive, Valentina and Rocco. And then we've got Daphne starts everything. She is alive. Is she innocent? we will discuss, but those are like our three characters in play. Is there anything you guys want to add to that? I think the theme of the whole show is that Daphne's scene.

I think everything, I think the real mystery and the real clues that are being put out is exactly what's represented by Daphne in that scene and other characters doing what Daphne does in their way. Okay. I am going to circle hard back to that when we get to Daphne proper. Mal, anything else you want to add about? the dramatist persona here at the beginning? I think one of the great treats of revisiting some of the earlier moments of the season after watching the full six

is that I had completely forgotten that Salvatore gets a mention in this opening body sequence, which is just like, oh my goodness, talk about an unexpected through line of this season of White Lotus. I will say, because we're obviously going to circle back to it,

that I agree that Daphne is central to the eventual outcome of the season. I think to connect that to what I was saying earlier about how I could really accept or let go of myriad different theories like any number of a dozen. I think that's part of what's fun about this is that even though I'm not watching the show for the murder mystery, I'm watching it

because it's a really deft study of human nature and interpersonal dynamics. I think it's pretty incredible that we've gotten through six episodes of TV and are on the eve of the seventh. and this many possibilities are actually in play that you could make a convincing case for if you wanted to.

You might not be able to convince Starly, but you could try to make a convincing case to another audience. I think anyone, except for those three people who's on the beginning, could be the person who dies or does making someone die.

I think that's different. I think everything's in play, but I don't think any of the theories that I've heard, at least on that sheet are what's in play for me. Like I think he, again, I think that those are all the ones. I think the theories that are based on him purposely being like, you should think this, you should think that are the ones that should be completely discarded.

But I think there's a lot, I think everything is, I think it's amazing what, how little, how, how little certainty, how we have no certainty other than those three. Yeah. What is, what is, what is, do they say Salvador in the beginning in that first? Yeah. So when Rocco is telling Val, so we know there's, the body in the water, right? Because that's what Daphne reacts to. And then Rocco tells Valentina, this is all in Italian, but translated, right? He says, one of the guests has drowned. And Valentina goes,

oh, that's fine. The ocean is not hotel property. We can't be liable for what happens in the Ionian sea, right? And Rocco says, you don't get it. Salvatore says other bodies have been found. And Valentina says, what are you saying, Rocco? What do you mean other bodies? And he says, other guests have been killed. Now, I went back and watched this. I know, like, a little bit of Italian, and I just wanted to make sure I really wanted to parse that other guests have been killed line.

Because that's, like, the question that we're constantly coming back to is, like, are we expecting a murder or are we expecting an accident? Right? And season one, as I mentioned, is like, it's a manslaughter. It's like kind of an accident. You know, it's like not... Or a suicide. It's not...

Yeah. That's a way to... Third possibility. is what I'm saying. Great possibility. So I don't want to be like suicide. Great possibility. But, you know, it's on the table.

He says, what he says, that's translated as other guests have been killed in the subtitles, Altriospitis, son, y, Ushizi, which means, technically means other guests are the dead. And he doesn't say they have been assassinated, like, assassinated would be, like, murdered. He doesn't say murdered, right? They have been killed. It's a nice, passive voice. And he doesn't say she or he. She doesn't, there's no gender to it.

Right, right. Right. Plural. Not the genders, but, you know, but like, there's the day is, so we know four people are alive because we know Salvatore's alive. Yes. That's right. Yeah.

I apologize. Salvatore wasn't high on my list of characters that I cared about, but yes, we do know the Salvatore is away. And then, like, the other language that I want to parse in that exchange is the, we use of the word guess, right? Because Valentina is like, why is this my? my problem. And he's like, other guests. Ospiti is what he says. That's definitely guess. So like, my question to you guys as we head into this theory ocean is like, how closely are we holding them to

this word guess? Because I have questions about Mia and Lucia, do they count as guests? I have questions about Quentin and his friends, do they count as guests? They stayed there briefly, but it seemed like they checked out. Like, what counts as a guess? What doesn't? Mallory, what do you want to say about that? relatedly, I would say that we have a clue about volume, right? Quantity, because Valentina says how many dead guests are there? And Rocco really cavalierly says, I don't know, a few. So, you know, what we're thinking about, okay, we're somewhere between a couple and several, where we're going with a few. I think, like, that helps us in some, on the one hand, Rocco doesn't seem like he knows what he's talking about and doesn't have a lot of particulars to offer up here. However, I think if this were like

12 people or definitively just two, we would have had some clarity in that direction. I also think that given what we learned in episode six about Rocco and Isabella, we can eliminate Isabella. He would be absolutely panicked and distraught. That said, you have the question of like, has anyone been able to identify the bodies yet? Has Rocco been able to put eyes on the bodies or just to just know there's a body? I think in terms of your guest question, because a very popular theory that we will definitely get to today is something going wrong with the yacht. into it could be deliberate, there could be foul play, it could be an accident. Does something happen

on Quentin's yacht? Does it happen to Quentin? Does it happen to Tanya? Does it happen to Jack, Porsche, etc? If I'm Rocco in a boat, a yacht has crashed, capsized, exploded any number of really notable events, I lead with that. I mention the yacht exploded in the sea. Look. And he's not saying anything like that, which makes me think that this is maybe a subtler death or cause of death than something like that. I also think because Rocco was put on to Beach Duty, he wouldn't necessarily know who is a guest and who wasn't a guest, but he's no longer checking them in. And so he's not quite sure who's a guest and who isn't. And then Lucia and Mia are guests. Yeah. And their names are on there. So they do count. They felt no matter what. But I think

he, and also the bodies might not be identified, like you said, but I'm not sure that he, now that he's been on the beach, he doesn't, he's, unless Isabella is coming home, Isabel, that's her name? She's coming home and telling, and doing a rundown of every, who's a guest and who's not every night. He's really in the dark. And I think Quentin and Coe would be a part of the guest bundle there because, first of all, we know that a couple of their friends were staying there, but also just the, the reveal that we've gotten like, okay, we've got these great seats, our palaces, is a table at the beach club, like they hang out. They're known, right? They're dining there. They're spending the day there. So even though they're not occupying rooms, I think they're using the

facilities and the White Lotus Sicily in a way that Rocco might say, yeah, these are people who are staying here. I don't even know if they, if the gays would be able to pull enough money together to stay there. They seem so cash poor. They can't even buy a rice ball. You know what I mean? So, no, I mean, I do, I think they at least have, like, a connection at the beach club. Well, you know, Greg could have also gotten them a room. I don't think they've got a, I don't think they've got a connection beyond Greg. I don't think. Greg got there early.

We do know that. So that's compelling. We know that Greg was there before Tanya and was not answering Tanya's text. So he was up to something else while he was there. And Greg was setting it all. Greg set everything up. Like, Greg's idea. That's the assumption.

That's the assumption. Yeah. Like, she there. And Greg's a. Devis, that's why he doesn't want Porsche there. I didn't, I saw someone point that out. I didn't come, I was slow on, but like him, yeah, he wants Porsche out.

He planned. Yeah. So this is, he could have been paying, he has enough, he could be getting them a room. I just think that there's no, there's no reason they are there beyond Greg setting this up. And then, yeah, for sure. The bottom line, the most important thing is we're not holding,

yes is not a very rigid thing that we're going to hold on tightly to. Let's talk about the, I just want to mention the larger sort of, understanding the larger morality of the White Lotus universe, according to Mike White and the way he talks about it, in which if we use these ones, especially as an example, it usually means the elite and the privilege, and usually white characters get away with whatever they want. And the working class, and usually non-white characters pay the price, is a very, like, Daisy and Tom Buchanan versus like Gatsby and Myrtle and the rest in the Great Gatsby. Like, this is the morality dictating that universe, and this seems to be the morality dictating Mike White's universe here. Would you agree or disagree with that?

Or do you think it's, do you think season two might be so different from season one that that shouldn't be a guiding principle? Has he said that specifically about the universe or was that about season one? Does he, has he, has he, to talk about the whole, the extended universe of White Lotus? Or is that, are we applying his season one? I think I am applying season one conversation to season two. And I know that he said that season one is more specifically. about class in season two is. The watching season two,

again, you guys have already mentioned a couple cases. What it seems to be here is like the haves and the pretend to haves, right? Like, that's a lot of what we're looking at. But also men and women. Like, he's so, it's so, it's coming so hard for men this season

that I feel, what I find so exciting about Mike White always is that he's so thoughtful and he really has these plans. for what he wants to do. He's such a truth to what his plans are. So I don't think he would just be like, I'm going to switch this up

because I, for the sake of switching up, like I think he really, he believes in his stories so much. But when I see, sometimes when I've seen some of these theories being like, well, in season one, the concierge died. So then she won't die. I don't think he's thinking about it that way.

I think he's thinking, I think his entire approach to the tone of this season is so radically different. Like, it's so loose and different feeling and the casting is so different that I think he, I think it's hard to know what to extract from what he said about season one.

And it's other, but there is something kind of to extract in Mike White overall as a creator. More that. Like, I feel like his ability to surprise is actually what I put more stock in than learning anything from what I learned about season one to put to season two.

That's so interesting. I'm curious, Mallory, like, something I wanted to ask you specifically about since you're an expert in this field and I am not, is like, we know that Mike White is a fame survivor player. We're not going to get into like too specific of his season because Starley is saving that as a surprise for herself. But like, that's okay. I don't know. I don't think we need to. But like I've just been interesting, you know, I've been interesting because I like to think about White Lotus as sort of this elevated survivor game or Mike White using his reality. show fandom brain to cast a season of White Lotus.

So, Malik, what do you think Mike White on Survivor can tell us about White Lotus? So without spoiling the particulars of his season appearance, I'll say a couple things that might be notable. Might not. First of all, I love Survivor, Joe, as you know. I know. Love to mention it whether or not there's a need. I think that we collectively forget that Mike White was also on two seasons of The Amazing Race,

which I just also want to throw out there because it's not only another reality show, but it's about exploration and adventure and competition. And the person he went on The Amazing Race with was his father. So I think that's really worth holding on to, especially as we think about the generations of de Grasso men, because Mel, his dad was his partner on Amazing Race. race. In terms of Survivor, a couple things. One, Mike White is on, and again, no spoilers for what happened in his season. He is on one of the best seasons of Survivor ever, like one of my top five seasons. So if you haven't watched it and you are considering it, I cannot recommend it

highly enough. It's the David versus Goliath season. That was the theme. Definitely apt when we talk about White Lotus. And he was on the Goliath tribe when the season started. That's the tribe that he was on. I'm not going to really say anything about what he does in the season. I will just say, unsurprisingly, I would describe his gameplay as student of human nature and narrative. That's very central to how he plays. The other thing I want to mention about Mike White and Survivor is that he is responsible. This is something he's talked about and something that Jeff Probst has talked about for a couple really notable changes over the course of Survivor recent history, recent isish and then recent history. And I think this is germane when we think about,

especially Starly the point we're just making about seasons one and two, because when you think about Survivor, it's like there's a constancy to it that is one of the great pleasures of life and one of the only things you can count on in life. However, if Survivor never changes, then it's boring, right? It doesn't grip you anymore. And so Survivor is always trying to navigate this balance of giving you the thing that you specifically want from what you're watching a season of Survivor, while also reinventing just enough to keep you on your toes, just enough that it feels like it's not utterly predictable, but also where you are clearly inside of the same experience. I think that is very relevant as we think about White Lotus,

right? And what might be the same in seasons one and two and what might be different. Or because sometimes what they do with Survivors, they film back-to-back seasons is at least the way the production schedule works now. And so like two seasons will come out that are very similar in terms of like structure, advantages, rules, and then there will be a reinvention. So maybe these two seasons will be more similar and then there will be a reinvention. I wouldn't be surprised by that. You also have to tailor, you have to know your opponents on Survivor. Yes. Outwe. Outplay outlast. Yes. So the surprise comes from being like, I've got a new, you can't do your, you can't be watching Survivor and just be like, I know what to do.

Based on watching 17 season Survivor, you have to observe based on different people, which is what the two seasons of White Lotus, to me, are there are two different kinds of people. I mean, yeah, new characters, go on. Right. So, okay, there's a great, you can read this. Just Google Entertainment Weekly, Dalton Ross, Mike White, Survivor. You'll find this article if you want to read the entire thing. Mike White has taken credit for nixing, Redemption Island,

eliminating the Redemption Island element from Survivor. Jeff Probes has acknowledged that Mike White was the one who convinced the Survivor team to get rid of this. But why? What was Mike White's explanation for it? Here's the quote from the Dalton Rossiw piece. I take the credit. This is the Mike White quote. I've never been a fan of Redemption Island. That's just me. I love the show. I'll watch the worst season of the show and it is still the best season of TV for me. Mike, same. It's the ritual killing aspect of Survivor where the stakes at the end are that someone's dead. The idea that they can come back to life just feels like it takes that away. I think,

there's a primal ritualistic killing thing that is part of the pleasure of the game. And I think that that kind of undermined it. He then has a, he offered up this other quote, this is the twist thing that I teased earlier. Quote, there's one part I do like about Redemption Island or Exile Island is that there's one less obstacle course. I like when you're just with the people as they're stewing in their juices and plotting each other's demise. That's my favorite part of the game, not necessarily the twist. So, there's a whole other article from more recent history when they had to redo the structure of survivor from 39 days to 26 because of of COVID protocols. This was introduced in season 41. Jeff Probst has talked a lot about and there's another EW. Dalton Ross piece about this,

how Mike White helped walk him through what changes and tweaks would work and which wouldn't and that the idea was really like fun. It has to be entertaining. It has to be fun. You kind of can't overthink that element. Like what is compelling TV? And, And one of the things that Jeff Probst said about this, about season 41, was we approached Survivor 41 as though the game was like the monster and a horror movie. Either you devout, and this is, he's describing Mike White's influence on Survivor. Either you devour the monster or the monster will devour you. And by giving the game the personality of a monster really sparked a lot of ideas, suddenly anything was possible. There was no twist too big, too scary, too controversial.

It didn't matter. The game is the monster. And let me be clear, the monster is hungry. I love this. Him loving, he's just the greatest. So let's talk about, you know, to get away from applying season one logic to season two, let's talk about something very specific. This is the last thing we're going to talk about before we talk about actual theories.

Something he very specifically said about this season is he said if last season, this is in a HBO, you know, vignette that I saw, where he said if last season was about class, this season is a bedroom farce with teeth. And we got this great email from a listener who preferred to remain anonymous, who sort of summed up this idea of sex and power and money, right? Who wrote, The season is shaping up to be about people without money, using sex to get what they need from the people with money. Some in direct ways like Lucia and her Johns, and some in more attenuated ways that are still unfolding like Quentin and Tanya, Cameron and Ethan. It's a brutal form of class warfare.

So like this idea of a bedroom farce with teeth, you know, and a bedroom farce, you're thinking of like, you know, mistaken identity, swapping partners, doors, all, you know, doors opening accidentally, et cetera. But folding that into this idea of, we're not abandoning the idea of class. Obviously, we're at a luxury resort. So like the extremely wealthy class is something that's still of interest to Mike White. But instead of maybe more brutal exertions of class power over. over staff, as you were talking about Starling season one,

we're getting this sort of like internet scene and like the class of pretenders, which is a, you know, a big part of this season that wasn't a big part of the previous season. Anything you guys want to say about bedroom farce with teeth, Starly? For me, the big question of this season is what is, what level of optimism is Mike feeling, Mike White feeling these days? Because I could see either side winning. Because it's, I'm, I am kind of less interested in who. dies as much as is he going to let the people who have it coming get punished or is he going to

or is it going to or is it going to be the people a lot of people think in the world of Mike white they just you know the people who the least powerful is the one but I'm like I don't know I don't know which one's going to be and like Lucia says you know we might not get punished and I don't know what he's I don't know what the redemption what the redemption who's going to get the redemption or not like I'm very I really and uh but with the teeth like the statues like did i just in that in episode six when you see when in uh when what's her name tanya's having sex with the sex worker and you see the woman crying with the knife and you had seen her in an episode before that painting you didn't see the knife in episode before right

like isn't the knife a reveal too i watched it again and i think i think when you watch it in five when she sees quentin and what's his nick jack having sex and you and you look at at the painting, I think it's just her prying. And then I think the knife comes out in six. And so, like, there's so much, there's so much threat to all these sex scenes, right? Because it's, because everyone's, there's so much, there's so much, there's so much threatening about these scenes. And then all these witnesses around them, all these, busts, these heads of these, of these, uh, you know, fucked over women. And then all these, like, on all these paintings, I just feel like, the finale is the teeth. Like, we've had

six steps of the farce and now. There come the teeth. Mal? Really? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think, Joe, like, you've spoken so eloquently across the pods you've done, episodes you've done with Bill, about the question of morality and White Lotus,

like you were just discussing in, like, what the mission statement or thesis of the show is even supposed to be? And I think that that's, like, an appropriate, ongoing line of inquiry for us to be grappling with, because if the true central preoccupation is human nature. The lies you tell yourself, the lies you tell other people. Like, there's not a

neat and tidy answer to how that looks. There shouldn't be at least, right? That's part of why people are complicated and interesting. But there are these patterns and there are these tendencies. I think what you were just describing about class is absolutely part of that. I think what, Starley, what you were saying about men and women in the season feels like very central in that respect to me too. Like you can think of, and I would also put, okay, so with that, you could think just like Tanya has the scene with portion. where she's talking about how depressing women are. But then Daphne has the scene with Harper

where she talks about how sad and lonely men are and how she really prefers to be and feels grateful that she gets to be a woman. So perspective is always so central to White Lotus too, right? Different characters who are having, in essence, the same conversation, who are interrogating the same idea, but bring to it their own experience. And part of that is like,

what compromise are you making with yourself? about what you're pursuing and what makes you happy. So you can take a conversation from episode six, like the Jack Portia Exchange, not the confession at the end, but when they're sitting on the bench talking about like satisfaction in the state of the world.

And we had another conversation in the series about the state of the world and it was between the couples. Like what's wrong with the world? You know, that conversation, right? And like these are similar ideas. I think this does get back to what we were saying at the beginning

about Daphne, feeling elemental to what has happened so far where this is going because Daphne is the character who I would say we most associate a season two viewers with that question of what are you doing to get through the day? What do you need in order to feel satisfied and content? And like, what does that look like for you? Is it better to be blinkered and happy or interrogating and unhappy? And I think that's the key. The key, I think that is the key, because you just said perspective. I think he's really playing with perspective. I think even that painting that we don't see in episode five, you see a woman crying and then in episode six you see a woman with a dagger.

Like, I really think he is really playing with not only their perspective, but how much he's showing us, because I think the key to the season is, what do you need to get through this, but how much you're willing to see or not see? And there's so, Daphne has already, that, the fact that, the fact that that we what's wrong with the world and there's two different things when jack said what's wrong with the world he's like you should feel lucky the world you yeah you don't even know how the deep the whole you're not in the whole yeah yeah yeah and the couple are saying we are tuning out yeah exactly one's willful yeah but i think a lot of characters tuning out we just see now tanya i mean tanya she has that scene i just early on after she discovers um that Greg is talking to someone and she's asked

am I oblivious? Like, why didn't I see this? And then we watch her proceed to see actual revelations about what's happening to her willfully not see. She won't listen to the fortune teller. She won't acknowledge that a picture of her husband.

She just saw a gay guy fucking his uncle. Yeah. Yeah, but like she won't, she won't look. She won't. I also think the person, the what we're not, what people, the not seeing that's happening is,

with Bert. I think Bert talking over and over saying, I was discreet. I was discreet. And the way his son is saying, you think we didn't know? I think Bert's been fucking one of the escort.

I think Bert's been fucking someone. And I think the reason Bert has his head is because he hit it while having sex. And I think Bert's been up to stuff. And everyone's writing him off and saying he's an old man and he can't get it up. And he's saying, I got away with things you guys didn't know.

And his son thinks he's so he didn't. I think there's like, the whole discretion thing happening with that family. Oh, my God, Starly's birthday. He did come to the four. He did say, you know, I'm still virile, right? He was probably boasting. He's hitting on the women.

He's got a bump on his head that we don't understand. We don't know how Burke spends his nights. We, he says a mystery thing. I think Mike White missed, I think he purposely had him fall to make us think that he just fell. He's every conversation he pretty much every conversation he has his son is, you're doing this wrong. How can you be so obvious? is and his son. And like it's about and they talk about you think we didn't see me.

I could be wrong. It could be wrong. It could be their accommodations are you think I didn't, it could be tied in just you think I didn't see. I did see and that people think they don't see when they do. But I do think because he's old people are writing him off. All the such a cute old man. I think his own family is discarded. I think he's up. There's something that's happening with bird at night that leaves that head wound. That's so interesting. I think they're so tied together this like who's what do you what are you willing to see and what What aren't you willing to see? And I mean, like, the way that I, I am going to process and think about your birth theory.

I'm not fully on board with it right away, but I'm going to think about it. But the Burt self-delusion or fantasy or whatever thing that I think is so key is that whole, like, fantasy of the homecoming in Sicily. This idea that he treated his family like garbage. And then he's like, but I'm going to go to Sicily and be, you know, welcomed back into the homeland with open arm. And these women are like in the fuck out of here. You know what I mean? So, like, let's go back to Daphne. This illusion you just made to, like, she could have just watched everyone she knows

be murdered and then go take a dip in the ocean before she goes, right? So we're going to break these. We're going to break down these theories by group of characters, right? So the Cameron and Daphne and Harper and Ethan group, we're going to run through some theories here, right? So the Daphne did a theory or somehow involved. So her lines from that cold over. is Italy's just so romantic. Oh, you're going to die.

They're going to have to drag you out of here. And then she says she's going to take one last dip in the ocean. We got an email from listener, Emily, who's pointed out that we've never seen Daphne in the ocean, actually, beforehand. But that's good. There's a lot of characters we haven't seen in the ocean. She also, like, yeah, she refuses. She's refused to go in, too.

Yeah. There's the weird mind games that she plays with Cameron. She gets off on that, like, when the whole Nodo trip was like a weird power play thing that she does. that she gets off on. And then, of course, Starly already pointed out this idea of Daffney's preoccupation with Dateline being something red herring. And I agree.

Like, I think the test of demoral, the dateline, the, like, woman who was killed to get her villa story that Quentin tells. All of this is to, like, throw, like, menacing chum in the water, like, from Mike White, you know, just surround us constantly with this idea of murder. But I don't know that it's necessarily, like, a hard and fast clue. But what I really do like... The water where the bodies are? Much like the bodies that...

because of the scuba diving tank pole, which is what Daphne is describing. Yeah. And I think they're emotional clues. Like, I think the theme of the women that have been wronged, I think those, that part of it is not a red hair. It's just not, it's not, it's just when he literally has a character say, I'm going to, I could, when he has, what's your name, her husband, Daphne's Cameron go, um, wake up with my head cut off. that's what I think he's messing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I agree.

So, Mel, what are your Daphne thoughts and feelings right now? What a character. What a performance. What a delight it's been. I'm so sad. We only have one episode left. I think that Daphne is probably, right now on Eve of the finale,

the character for whom I'm, like, most excited to do a full season rewatch after we know what happens and, like, look at all of these moments and all of these lines through a new lens. because I think that that you could convince me of 20 different outcomes right now.

Like some of the things that she says in terms of the plot, do you feel like that could be really germane? I think the question of whether she knows about if Cameron is in fact hard up for cash, which I believe he is. I'm not sure Daphne knows that. And so I could see, because there are a couple different theories in that respect. One, she does know and is in on the con and the effort to woo Ethan to invest. money, right, reinvigorating the firm. Then there's a version of that where she doesn't know,

and finding that out, either because of the pursuit of Lucia's cash or some other eventuality, leads to a domino effect for whatever happens in the finale. I think Eileen that way more than her being in on the con, but I could be convinced in either way. I think that, like, the conversation that Daphne had with Harper about Cameron's firm is really interesting, though, in terms of, again, the actual theorizing and plots, like the way she described it as a very dark triad and talked about like how monstrous they were and the things that they do and describe them as like made off types. It definitely seems like something really nefarious and sinister is happening there and that Cameron is trying to use Ethan's windfall to pull him out of that.

Bale them out of something. Yeah. But I think emotionally the lines from Daphne feel most resonant because like, again, to this men-women thing, the role of women in White Lotus. I thought one of the most heartbreaking moments of the show was when Daphne confided in Harper, again, unless you think that Daphne is helping to con them, I read it as Daphne confiding in Harper

that she has no women friends and that like the women in her life always just want to like talk shit or get something and then that those are really fleeting relationships. I think Daphne and Tanya are incredibly different characters in ways both like seismic and small, But that idea of like one of them, like with Tanya, we think of that as being intentional. Other characters accuse her of discarding people, not caring with Daphne.

It sounds like it's something she regrets and laments that she hasn't been able to forge these lasting bonds. But then what does Harper go and do immediately like gab about that? To Ethan. That was like heartbreaking. Absolutely heartbreaking. But that idea of like get maybe get your, maybe you should get a trainer that kind of heated push that she made. to Harper, get yourself a trainer, get yourself a distraction, get yourself something that makes you happy and your own version of a life that allows you to get through the day, that feels like

the most notable thing. So like, what is every character's version of getting themselves a trainer in terms of what the dynamics in the finale are? And at what point is even a trainer not enough, you know, because like something that Daphne says to Cameron when he's talking about Harper or whatever. And she goes like, you know, he's asking if she's mad. She's like, that depends just how bad were you? You know, this time, this time. How bad were you this time? You know what I mean? I'm not saying, I'm not saying I see a revelation from Cameron that makes Daphne snap and Daphne did it or whatever. But like, she's, I find her so capable of disassociative behavior that like, I really could see her just like take one last dip in the ocean before she has to deal with the reality

of whatever happens. Starley, you've got your thinking face on. What do you want to say? I think it was Daphne. So I think it was Daphne. so I think with Daphne, I don't think she knows Cameron doesn't have money. I think Cameron, the reason Cameron

doesn't want her to know is because he would leave it. Like, he needs to be rich for Daphne to stay. I think he's actually quite afraid of Daphne leaving him. I think... Agreed.

Abandemine issues. Establish canon. Yeah. Yes. I think the... And also, like, he doesn't think he's smart enough. He doesn't think he's worthy enough.

I think the trainer thing, get yourself a trainer, but it's also so fucked up the trainer because her kid's going to have this dad. Like, to you involve if it was just her having a trainer and her fucking her trainer but the fact that it's her kid's dad and it's going to and this is this is just over there this kid's entire life and her disassociation connecting to that like it's so beyond just get yourself a trainer right and and

and i think with the daphne and the woman thing from the very beginning she can't have women friends because of camera because she her she can't trust her husband to not try to fuck her friends And she's from the very beginning, there's all these looks. She's seen, in the very first episode, when camera goes upstairs, even before we see him drop his pants to Harper, you see Daphne's eyes. She's tracking that when he says, I'm going upstairs. So she can't, she can't, women are not saying,

and she's as someone who, these, whose currency, it's all about currency too. Like, there's these two escorts there whose currency is sex, but all these women, other women, like Harper's currency is, they're not to be having sex. Daphne's currency is keep it fun and, you know, be the fun wife. And so they, her currency for what she thinks is a very rich husband and having this rich life. And so she, she, her relationship with women is, I can't trust my husband. The husband did not want to fuck them.

And I can't trust women to not want to fuck my, do not fuck my husband. Like it's all, it's all, there's all mistrust. And I do believe that Daphne wants to be friends with women. And I do find Daphne. so deeply appealing and her disassociation. It's just so relatable. And the fact, I don't know, I don't know what role Daphne plays in these deaths.

I don't even, but I don't even know if it's about deaths that she has a role in. I don't know if, but whatever, we do know for a fact that Daphne is on that beach alone that day. And we never see, not only she not on the water, she's never not been with these people. So something goes down to make it so she's not with them on that. beach, even if it's not attached to And she's like, we're about to leave. You know what I mean? It's like they're about to go and she's down there by the stuff. Yeah. No, but we also

know at that point, she's the most unreliable narrator. And whatever Daphne is saying about having a great time, we know is not what actually, it does, we can't trust any of the words. And the thing I will say about what I, the murders is, it might turn out to be a bedroom for us in a literal way.

It might all turn out that everyone's going to kill each other because of money and pre-nups and all this kind of stuff. But I still, I really, and I could be so wrong, to me it feels like whatever, whatever deaths happen are going to be emotionally driven. We're going to be people who could not take it anymore. And it's not in the money stuff. I think class is such a huge part of the show, but I don't, to me, it never seems like it's actually going to come down to a deal gone wrong. Like, it always seems like this is going to be, that's why it feels more connected to the women on the

rocks and all these, that's what the women and the woman with the Arctic woman coming out, the anger of women this season is what I don't think is a red hair. And I could be wrong. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound terseptide may be able to help. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity. Or some adults with overweight who also have weight-related medical problems to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5-5-7.5, 10, 12.5 or 15 milligram injection. Zepound contains terseptide and should not be used with other terseptide-containing products or any GLP1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known

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make it happen. With millions of deals on flights, hotels, and rental cars, you can go see the game live. Don't just dream about the trip. Book it with Priceline. Download the Priceline app or visit priceline.com. Actual prices may vary, limited time offer. Okay, so let's talk about, I mean, let's talk about men snapping before we talk about, like, female anger. Because, like, I'm going to, I'm going to just hit three things really quickly. One, Cameron and his fuse, right? The Daphne says in episode two, Cameron has a really, he's shouting on the phone about his lost luggage, shades of Jake Lacey in season one, right? And she says Cameron has a really long fuse, then all of a sudden he'll just go crazy. I mean, he will lose it, right?

So that could be another, you know, anvalidic red herring dropping on us. Like, ooh, Cameron's going to just lose it. Or it could be, you know, something to keep an eye on. Ethan, who has seemed so even keeled, has very recently started to come unraveled, and we see sort of the mess that was below that more placid surface coming to the, you know, rising up. And then we've got one of my favorites, which is just the jet ski theory, which is like if Harper's alone, if Daphne's alone on the beach, if Daphne's alone on the beach, is possibly because Ethan and Cameron went back out on the jet ski. and maybe played a game of chicken again, only this time no one swerved. And in that way, it's not a murder.

It's like an accident, but it's an accident driven by this sort of like, since college, these two men have felt threatened by each other for different reasons. Their status in society has flipped. This is almost intolerable for both of them. And it ends in disaster. So Cameron's temper. Ethan coming unraveled because of this whole Harbor situation and potential added jet ski complications. Mallory, what do you want to say about this?

Okay. Ethan is my – Ethan is the one I have my eye on the most right now for something going like just getting horribly out of hand. And I think this gets to your question, Joe, about – well, Albi also. They're my top two, I think, for that. Yes. So – Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So I think this gets back to your like broad question, Joe, of murder versus some sort of accidental death. And I think the idea of something happening between Ethan and Cameron that snowballs in a way that no one intended would feel very of a piece with their week so far and with what we have been able to glean about their history together. You mentioned earlier the Tessa de Morrow, the head statues, the local legend that Rocco is kind enough to show.

with our vacationing couples and with us. And revisiting it, I can't claim to have any like full tally spreadsheet tracker here, though I would love, love to do that on a rewatch. But I will say that just like revisiting some of this, the cuts from Ethan to the statues felt like the most deliberate to me easily. And there's that one sequence where we cut back and forth multiple times as Ethan is staring. at the statue in his room. Is this almost too much,

like the evidence that is mounting that Ethan is going to be the one to snap and do something that he maybe can't control? Perhaps I do think that Ethan, like, that question of memetic desire, that charge that he hurled and levied against Cameron rightfully clearly, if we think, like,

I think this is also a pattern of the season. A character says something to another character. This is how you wound me. right this is the specific way that you a person who knows me tries to hurt me and then it flips and like that's what we're watching so does the memetic desire come into play here if it or just the rage and the built up resentment over time you could kind of play it either way Ethan is like stop flirting with my wife stop trying to fuck my wife he really thinks that this is something that might have happened and there's this like since college

resentment of Cameron trying to take things away from him. I think there's going to, for me, this is like maybe not accurate or relevant, but I'm wondering if there's like an Ethan Daphne thing that we should be watching because of the mutual resentment that they have with their spouses and could they make their way toward each other in some capacity. But I also think like the gaslighting charge that Harper hurled at Ethan, like I don't think that Harper and Cameron hooked up when they went to the rooms. I think that Harper is trying to incite. this response in Ethan to get her vengeance on him. And I don't blame her.

Vengeance, but also to like feel desired, right? Like she has been trying to point, the memetic desire flipping. Oh, if Cameron wants me, maybe now you do too. And it's a thing you think he does, but maybe it's true for you too. Yeah. Right. And what is it? There's why.

Why isn't Ethan having sex? Albi and Ethan are the two, the two like even keeled. rage growing inside. I mean, Cameron called Ethan an in-cell, you know, and Alby is the boy who doesn't ever want women to be, to never treat women badly. And he's the one that we can easily see freaking out and being terrible to women and all that, all his, like, all his feelings of being affected. Theory, Albi always has socks on during sex so that we can't identify his heels as the heels floating in the sea. I love that. I love that. But, but, Ziphe's, but, show, there's something, the thing with, I love, the thing with Ethan, him not having sex,

this is so beyond not being attracted to your girlfriend anymore. Like, Ethan, like, they, these two have not touched each other since, she's, like, laid on his chest. Sin's getting there. I know that they're doing a contrast and they're saying the couple that she's feeling superior to, they're the ones who actually are attracted to each other. And the one who cheats under his wife, it's still, like, attracted to his wife. But this is beyond that at this point. Ethan, because he watches all this stuff.

he's so upset that Cameron might be talking as white. But the porn looks even forced. It's like the porn that you think you're supposed to be watching. Yeah. When you have, when you feel, you think it's supposed to be the thing that shows you're a sexual person. There's something going on with Ethan and him not having sex.

Because he, nothing, nothing, no wonder Harper's going out of mind. Nothing that happens makes him, he could just act now. He could be so mad. He could be so jealous. He could be, any version of this could make him have sex with her. And he's so, he is acting like an in-cell.

He is, it's like this self-imposed, what's my call? What's it called when you don't have, like, celibacy. Celibacy. There's something really, really going on, mysterious going on. He's a voluntary celibacy. Yeah. So what do we think, do you guys have theories about what's happening with that? I mean, I don't have a strong theory about it, but I think, I mean, I don't have a strong theory about it, but I think,

I mean, it's definitely connected to the running, right? Like the fact that we watch Ethan go, I mean, Mallory and I have bonded over the fact that we don't understand people who go for morning runs. But like, that aside, there are plenty of healthy, psychologically healthy people who go for morning runs, presumably. But like, Ethan does not seem one of them. Like the fact that we are constantly with him on this run, we're seeing him, like, sweaty and like out of breath and like heart racing. You know what I mean? But, you know, calm as can be and placid and all other. occasions is, you know, and he seemed like he was having a freaking panic attack when Cameron was

fucking Lucia on the couch, right? He like slides down the wall, you know, so like that, there's like some absolute sexual trauma of some kind going on there is what it feels like. Is it going to be that he's gay? I mean, I think it'll be a little disappointing just because it's a little obvious almost. Interesting. I just wish that if I just don't have any indication of any desire, like if I had seen him show express any kind of desire for anyone. The level of how he said he gets about Cameron

is because of like him. He's so much much much than Cameron than he is. And what Cameron's up to, then what Harper's up to. And there's a little bit of Harper that does like a beard. To me, it's like so put out there that I'm almost like

discard it. What are you saying? Mallee. Let me just quickly mention this. We've seen a lot of of disturbing and distressing behavior on season two of White Lotus. Number one, Ethan going on a 20,000 steps run and then getting into bed before showering, horrifying.

That's not relevant to what we're discussing, but I was a poll. It's always relevant, Matt. As Joe knows, I like the Ethan character. I'm so interested in him. Let's see. How can I put this? This is real like scenes from a marriage stuff to me, honestly. Like I actually didn't find this that strange that people who have been together for a certain number of years just like fall out of that kind of rhythm with each other.

And what's interesting about them as a couple, because I think that's not necessarily so atypical. What is a typical? But it's beyond, it's beyond that because it's one, I feel like there's one thing for him to, for that to be happening. it's that first of all, when Harper points this out, that's another example of someone willfully being like, I don't want to hear it. She says it explicitly. And then when he goes, we can try. In that conversation at Dan, he goes, we'll try. And then we see him not trying. There's, there's one, you try at least. Like he's not, he's too afraid to do anything. He is so terrified of something that is keeping him from this that I think is a different level than just,

maybe he's afraid that he's so not attracted to his wife and he'd have to admit, like, maybe it's just that, but it is like, he won't, there's never, he doesn't get drunk, he doesn't do any gestures to, but he's so jealous now. Well, he's so jealous. But I think so, yeah, I think like what's interesting to me about them is like, I think plenty of couples grow apart in any number of ways. Yeah. I don't know how many then multiple times per day go out of their way to say to each other,

but we're doing great. And like, we should be so proud that we always tell each other, the truth. And like, I was so struck in that vein, not only by what you're mentioning, which was like Ethan's response to Harper's very vulnerable, like, do you even want me any more exchange? But like when the night after the Molly episode, when he says, honestly, I kind of think you should feel good about this. Like that's sociopathic. That's deranged. And so that fits into again, that theme of like the characters who are lying to themselves as much as to other people because I think Ethan genuinely believes that he has been well behaved. And when she says that thing

to him about like we're too young to feel this old, like that conversation, she's not doing it without kindness. Like there's kindness in it where she's just like, let's be real with each other and let's be kind to each other and let's like figure out how we can have what we want even if that means we're doing it separately from each other. And he is just like shuts it all. the way down and like puts up the the willfully ignorant blinders you know what i mean it's like and then and then she then now she feels forced now she's playing games like daphne does now look what she's doing and even then normally like that's what i'm saying let's why something's up with ethan because normally when you're resorting to these kind of games it does work at least temporarily

the husband you get them so jealous that they then throw you on the like i'm not thinking it's healthy it's what's happening with daphne and cameron's not healthy but it doesn't work at least is to get your short-term goal of them being attracted to. Like, nothing's working. Maturity's not working from Harper. Vulnerability's not working. Her trying to be nice. Her being a bitch.

Her, her, her, making him jealous. He is acting this self-imposed paralysis. It's more extreme even than Albi. Like, there's something so terrifying to me about Ethan at this point. Because he just will not act. And that's why he might. be the person who acts next episode. Well, a sudden that's.

Yeah, the teeth come out. All right. Can we roll to the DeGrosse? Should we talk about them? We already heard Starly's birth theory, which I'm still thinking about, which I love. But like... Yeah, and I'm going to clarify,

I'm not sure if it's one of the escorts you sleep with. It's a little bit... I'm not like... I'm trying to track... I've been trying to track, like, where is Mia's sleep? Because now we see now Lucia is sleeping at... In Albi's room.

Mia could go home, but also we're not quite, and I know we had one night we see Mia and Valentina, but there's an un, there's an unaccounted for night with Mia. And I'm just saying, and I might not even be either of them. I'm just, there's something, I do think he's been up, I think us thinking he's not up to, the only one who's not up to something at night means he's up to something at night. And I think it's sex, and I think it relates to that.

So I find it, yeah. But on the, on the sort of wound tightly, maybe going to snap Betamail, track. We should talk about Albi and like sort of the white night theory, right? Which is this idea that like, we all, I think, believe that Lucia is running a bit of a con on him with the Alessio character, that this is not actually an evil pimp who wants money from her, but like someone she knows who she's staging a fantasy, a broken bird fantasy. This is Albi's fantasy that he talked to Porsche about. Essentially, he's saying like all the women that I mean are broken birds in need of protection. We've heard him talk a number of times to his dad sort of this idea of like she's in a bad situation. I want to protect her.

We know that Lucia is either after, maybe after money, I think the long con is take me back to Los Angeles with you. Like, that's what she wants. It's nuanced is the argument I keep trying to make to Bill, which she is not down with. But like, I think it's nuanced in that she's like, he seems nice and I can get something from him, like that both of those things are sort of existing together. But like if Albi discovers the truth that this is some sort of long con, if or if he in some misguided white knight gesture, like tries to physically confront Alessio or Cameron who also owes her money, that he knows, he knows Cameron owes her money, like is Albi headed for either a massive disillusionment, like a very Eulam-Rueger and Willam-Rouche,

thank you for curing me with my ridiculous obsession with love sort of moment or something terribly physical and accidental. Alby is the character I have in mind most, I think, when we talk about what we were talking about earlier in the pod, like Mike White really focusing on people destroying each other and not the twist. Because like it feels like Albi's desire to be the White Knight Savior going wrong is where we're heading.

And I think it probably is. And the fact that we've maybe been able to anticipate that all season long is fine. Like, that's, if that's how it goes, then that's the point. If it's not, that's fine, too. I think we have so many clues that something's going to happen here. You mentioned that he knows Cameron knows for money. He witnessed that exchange at the restaurant at the hotel. This is, by the way, a little tangent here. My only, like, nitpick and note on the season, they're in Sicily. Why are people not going out to restaurants more? But you know that, but did you see, that's a point? Did you see that tweet? Yeah, I agree with that tweet.

Yeah, yeah. Louise Pipes, I'm sorry, Louis Fife. I don't. I don't know how to pronounce your last name. Pitesman. I loved his response. That's the point. He's like, that's the point. He's like, they're incredibly intentional. He's like, they're all bad, like, they're bad tourists. Yeah. They're not actually curious. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It pains me though. I'd like to be touring the culinary scene and Cicely Moore. We got that plate of pasta with clams with Tanya. But like Albie, he says in the same broken birds conversation with Porsche at that restaurant, actually, he says that like women think they, want a nice man but actually don't. And that's an idea that comes back up again when in episode six, what's one of the things that Lucia says to him? Like, I wish you're kind. Like, I wish everyone were like you. And that's something that for him, that's his Viagra. That's the thing that sends him surging and fuels him, the idea that someone would want him to be that way. I think

like connecting Albi and this Burt idea that we were talking about earlier of like the homecoming and what you long for, that conversation that they had during the Godfather tour at lunch at the table where Albi talked about, like he said to them, you're nostalgic for the solid days of patriarchy, right? Men love the godfather because they feel emasculated by modern society. It's a fantasy about a time when they could go out and solve all their problems with violence and sleep with every woman, come back home to their wife who doesn't ask them any questions and makes them pasta. Like, Alby then falling into that. same, his version of that same role is, I think, really interesting, especially to the question

of, like, passing down tendencies in that family, which is something that Dom broaches with Byrd. That's my strongest theory around Albi is not that he is going to murder or be murdered, but that the most heartbreaking thing that could happen is that he, like, becomes his dad or his grandpa, right? I don't think Albi's a murderer. I think he could try to solve something and just get killed. I don't see any version of Albi. doing something bad that is against another man. I think it's, I think it's Albi against women.

I think the whole thing, to me, it's like these successive generations of men. And he thinks his grandfather sucks because, or, and it's because of the view of women and Albi's in denial about his own view of women. He doesn't know how to read women.

Portia was putting out so many, he wasn't actually tailoring anything to Portia. He wanted his wounded bird. He wanted to her to be, and when she says something like, I want to up my meds, He's scared of that. He doesn't want them.

They got to be his kind of wounded bird. I think Lucia is reading him like a book. I think she does think he's nice, but I think she's cynical about his nice. I think she's like, because he's full of his nice, I know these kind of nice boys. I know, first of all,

they'll leave me. And they wouldn't, he was, she thinks he's not nice enough to actually take me back. And she, she's been able to see through him, the fact that she was able to put her con together

immediately upon meeting him. She didn't do that con with the other guys. She tailored it. He's a mark. She is exactly who she's with, how she can talk to them. I think Albi's got tremendous rage against women because he's so mad that women don't like nice guys. They say they want nice guys. He is a nice guy.

Why don't they want him? He's not understanding that his little peck with Portia on the beat. And him doing what he does to Portia when he first takes her a room and he gives her the kiss and then he leads her there. It's all in his terms. I feel like if Albi's going to snap, it's going to be against a woman because it's going to find out that Lucia is conning him or he's going to find out his dad's slept with the prostitute and possibly the grandfather. And he's going to turn against women and maybe a woman's going to defend herself. I think the fact that the woman that he didn't, he was the least defend, he defended her the

least when the guy came, the fake guy came to take her away. The grandfather is the one who defends her the most. Michael and Perry Orly is in the middle. And Albie says, we don't want to escalate. He's such a, he's so pathetic. The fact that they let him, her get in that car is the worst. It's already a crime. Like, I can't, like, they already let that happen.

And I think that in-cell energy that he has and Ethan has, like, I just don't imagine it's, I can't, I can't, I can't, I personally can't see I'll be going against Cameron. I'll be going against his other man. I think it's going to be his biggest fears that he is not good to women. He's what he told Portia, I can't live with myself. And I think he's going, he's going to do something to a woman or try to. And that's his punishment because he's not the good guy he thinks. he is or he's not as he's not as he's not far enough away from his grandfather these men that he's judging i i think michael parallel is the herald of the season i think

he's the one only one he's really trying to grow and change and i think he's got weird complications when he sees his son with the escorts and he's jealous but i also think he is really trying to really is trying to grow as a person i think he's trying to but like and i know that we've already cautioned to be against like uh applying mike white lessons from previous seasons to this season, but I really do think that Mike White thinks you can put on a character for a vacation, but you cannot fundamentally change. Incremental growth. I think even admitting that you want to grow, like trying, though, is something.

And I do think Mike White really is interested in people and has, like, Enlightened. I think enlightened has to be folded into this just as much as White Lotus. Like I just think because White, because Lightning was the first phase of this. And I feel, I just feel that Mike, and I just feel that Mike, and I. I also feel like he would be true to the characters. I don't think Mike White is going at this being like, they all have to show that they're, they all have to come on the other side unchanged

because that's what these characters in this universe do. Like, I think there's something... I don't think it's that rigid. I don't think it's something that's rigid, but I just think that, like, I think if Albie thinks he's really enlightened and better than his dad and better than his grandfather, that the sort of most Mike Whitey end to that story is us,

him showing all of us overtly that he is no different, that it might, that the face of it might change generationally, but him sitting there saying women don't want nice guys is this, just a new flavor of whatever his grandpa did to women. You know what I mean? Right. So, I guess the question of whether we might get an appy appearance, a large-dard appearance for our beloved Christopher for Dom is worth at least briefly discussed. I still say no. on the theory front. I still say no Lordearn, but I'm happy to be wrong

about that. All right, so Mia and Lucia, like obviously Lucia is closely bound up in what we were just talking about, the DeGrosso's, and and with Cameron. But I think the thing that really stuck out to people in this episode is when Valentina and Mia are at the bar, and Mia's like,

let's go fight a place and sexually awaken you, Valentina slaps the master key into Mia's hand. And so now in theory, Mia has a master key that will get her into any room, you know, provided that she shoved it down the front of her, like, a feathered dress or whatever, like, she's got the master key that will get her into any room in the hotel. And, like, the best idea that people have of what she might do with this is, like, go after the money that Cameron owes Lucia,

possibly. And that is a very bedroom farce. You know, we've already seen them caught in Burton's room, like, you know, if they're caught in Cameron's room looking for money or whatever it is, is that something that might happen? So any, yeah, any skeleton key ideas, Starly. I love how these girls started out the outsiders, then are now living in this hotel, and they're such a part of the, they're, they're in every story. Yeah, yeah, yeah. These girls are just, are the hotel now. And I think as they become more and more, as the ecosystem of this hotel, they are, they are living their own, they're living their own separate lives in there now. Like them, them convening is happening less and less. And so I don't think that, which I think

is also intentional. They're flowering into their own cons or, or, or, I like to think that Mia, like, I might be completely polly in on this, but I like to think that Mia is just practicing her, um, bar routine. And that's what she's spending her time doing. I agree with you. Like, I like, I also think Mia's intentions are pretty pure. Like, I do think, you. I do think, her. It's all about getting to the piano. And I really want to believe that her and Valentina, she just did because she really wanted to help Valentina out, like, and that she likes her. I think with all things it's layered that there's like that she genuinely wants to help Valentina out in this moment. And then also she knows that this is only going to help her get what

she wants, which is, you know, more opportunities to sing in the bar. Right. Both those things can be true. Yes. Yes. But it's more reciprocal than with the guy, the piano. later. Oh, yeah. Yes. Yes. All right. Let's talk about Portia, Tanya, Quentin, Greg, and Jack. The real juice of what a lot of people are focusing on here at the end of all things. I'm going to just once again float my very sweetly saccharine theory that what we're watching is not as nefarious as we think it is. I think it's because it's being shot as so nefarious that my instincts are that it's not. And it's this idea of Tanya's Monica Viti Italian fantasy that she tells to Greg where she says, you know, I want to look just like Monica Viti. Then this man of flimfitting suit, he comes over, takes his drive on his vespah. Then at sunset, we all go down close to the sea. Me big plates of pasta with giant clams. We're just really chic and happy and we're beautiful.

And then Greg leaves. And then like, Quentin comes. Quentin is obviously on a scam. obviously on a scam that is connected to Greg. Like this is indisputable, right? Greg is the cowboy he knew once upon a time. The reason he knows to target Tanya is because of Greg. All of that is true.

But is he doing it for A, to murder her and get her money. B, this is the most popular theory, and I hate it, but here it is, trigger a infidelity clause in the pre-up to violate the pre-nup so that then Greg can get the money. and the divorce, which he will then give to Quentin because Quentin has not a penny in his pocket, not a euro. Or the third option, which is my favorite, which is that Greg, something horrible is happening either Gray is just leaving Tanya or that he is dying and he has asked Quentin to give her her fantasy before he breaks his terrible news to her somehow. And like, listen, I understand that this is a show where people are going to die.

Like, I know that that's going to happen. And I'm not so sunshine and lollipops that like, but it's actually my more cynical side of me because I'm always looking out for someone trying to trick me. And I feel like we're pushing pedal to the metal of like nefarious con so hard with Greg and Quentin that I'm like, but what if the con is that they're being nice? So pre-nup murder, nice. What do you, what do we think? But can't there be a con that is after? her money that doesn't involve the pre-up. Like that, I think there's this whole, like,

they get her to sign over or to buy the villa or something. Like, there's something like her handing, some, like, rock soup kind of thing where they, like, she's going to be not directly, something where they get her to sign over a lot of money to them. And it's because Greg has

sicked them on her. But I don't know if it has to be, the pre-up, I just hate, I hate it so much too. It just seems like so much, all the work that they're putting in to murder her, it seems like a waste of this energy that they're putting in.

That's why I think it's like for her benefit or to soften her up. Jack says this thing where he was like, we have parties of, yeah, well, Jack says they have parties at the villa all the time and it's all these gay men and these rich old hags.

So like if Quentin has run this con on a number of older rich women that he is constantly like buttering them up, taking them to the opera, all the sort of stuff, and then saying sign on the dotted line, don't you want to preserve the

beauty of this, that, or the other thing. And even, yeah, I don't think they're trying to murder her. I really don't. What do you think, Mallory? I also do not think that they are trying to murder her. I agree that they're trying to get her to offer up money freely. And, you know, Tanya has a lot of money. Portia has a lot of money.

Portia's mentioned twice this season that Tanya has half a billion dollars. Half a bill. It's such a funny number. It's so funny. That's no joke, right? I really tormented on how I feel about Greg and what we're going to learn about about Greg. I keep going back and forth. I do kind of,

I think I'm where you are, Joe, though, where, like, I think that he's more, like, confronting the fact that his illness is back. And he needs to, like, break this terrible news to Tanya and is trying to figure out how to bring some joy into her life. I don't know if the way to do that is to leave on the middle of your romantic vacation after ignoring texts and shaming somebody about the matter.

that you're eating, that's where I kind of lose the threat on that. Like, he's just a piece of shit to her and, like, really unkind. So, if the goal is for him to be, like, a caring, nurturing person who gives her this fantasy, then he could start doing that in the course of regular conversation and exchanges. I don't know, like, during the, right, during the party, you know, the music is popping, the cocaine is flowing. And, like, there's that one break that really, like, sinister and overt break in the music where Tanya looks at Quentin. And I think, like, Joe, it kind of falls into the bucket that you were just saying of, like, it's almost so intense and meant to draw our attention and raise our suspicion, but also, like, we are, it's not like the reveal is that Quentin is after her money.

So we have reason to be suspicious of him anyway. I was going to ask both of you if you thought that we should be worried about Tanya committing suicide because, That's what I'm concerned about. Now, I will say I don't actually think this is going to happen, but I think this could fall into the bucket that Starley was mentioned earlier of, like, lines that are maybe so intentional that they're there clearly to mislead you. But we've gotten a couple direct ties. Like, Tanya walked out on the balcony and said,

look at this view. I wonder if anyone's ever jumped. And in terms of the nature of how these eventual deaths unfold, could the yacht or a boat be a part of this? Absolutely. Could the jet skis be a part of it? I love the jet ski theory. I'm definitely in team somebody's falling off of a high perch into these rocks and crashing waves that we've been cutting to all season long camp, whether that's someone's slipping, someone being pushed, someone jumping.

I don't know. Again, I know we need multiple bodies. But there was also in the wake of Madam Butterfly, the conversation where Tanya was like, I can relate. What is she talking about? Not only the tragedy, that broader tragedy, but specifically this idea of like a ritualistic suicide. So do you think those are misdirects or guideposts? Well, I think some of it's misdirect. I think the M. Butterfly, he wants us to think suicide.

But I think what she means by the, I can relate is my husband, my American husband left me in a foreign, in this land. And he might not come back. Like, that's what I think, because that's what M Butterfly is, right? But she's specific. The line is Sapuku, I can relate. That's the quote. What is, what is, does that mean suicide?

Stopping yourself, sobbing yourself with the sword. Oh, okay. Well, well, yeah. But also like, that is what. But being driven to that place. But also like having your heart ripped out by someone does feel that's why I really keep going back to as emotional. I feel like it's just going to be an emotional

reason and and love and lust and make sure do irrational things just as much as money makes you do irrational things. And so and I really want to believe it's not going to be tied to money even though the undercurrent of class is always running through. Tanya's

yeah. Tanya his whole not fully understanding what's going on in any given time, here's my most outlandish theory, which is that Greg is helping engineer this, probably to get her to give over money in some capacity, right? Because Jack says, we're about to come into some money, aren't we, or whatever, right? But like, Greg has engineered this whole thing. This is her fantasy. This is Monica Viti fantasy. He has told Quentin what he needs to do to give her that fantasy. If he comes back and she kills him, but she finds out tragically that, like, he didn't mean her harm. You know what I mean?

Is a thing that's kicking around in my head that she would kill Greg, but Greg was not trying to get her killed. You know what I mean? But she would, like, think that that was something that was happening in a confused sort of Tanya state. The last M. Butterfly thing I want to say. Yeah. Yeah. the last time butterfly thing I want to say, and this is something that I saw,

someone tweeted at me, I think, which is that Butterfly has a maid name Suzuki and her maid's name is Portia. And I was just like, oh, I don't know if that's intentional. That's funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know Alessio was driving a Suzuki, Joe?

Yeah, I do know that. That's funny. See, he's so funny. He's doing on purpose. Yeah. So the thing, it's interesting that Greg is nice thing. And so... I mean, he's not.

He's a piece of shit who made fun of her for eating cookies, but, like, his version of knives. When you watch that first episode again, the first two episodes, like Greg, she wakes up in the middle of night and Greg looks very, very pained about it. And he looks like he's feeling guilty. Or confronting his... The cancer being back. Yeah. So this through, this idea of Greg being nice, them and Jack all seem a little pretty upset about the con that they're doing. doing, but yet they're still doing it. And there's a question of who is motivating this.

Because they all do seem conflicted. And Quentin says, I would still do anything for him. So is it, is it Greg that's making them do this? Or is it Quentin that's making Greg do that? Because Greg looks very upset when he wakes up in the middle of night. I don't, I want to know who, who is the puppet master of this con or if they all, or if they all like have such a legitimate need that they, none of them want to be conning her. But they all have, like Jack seems like he doesn't want to be doing this, but he owes it to Quentin and he pulled him out and he's helped him to help him. Like there's something noble or loyal in the three of them. And also, like, I want to, there's some, there's some real, um, magic when it comes to Tanya this season.

She wakes up, she has a premonition about Greg being with the men. Like, he's surrounded by men and with their hair or like, and, and the shark eyes. And I take it shark eyes. some people I feel like take your archives mean he's dead. To me it's like you can't trust it

like shifty or something. But she has his premonition. There's a psychic that literally has a premon visions and she, that she's denying. Like there's something

only around Tanya that she's actually having like actual magical forces happening. And yet she's the character, she's the character who I think

is refusing to see things but yet is also one of the most honest characters in the show. Like when she says up to Portia, like I'm jealous, No other character would ever admit as openly as she does. I'm jealous.

So she's in touch with her feelings, but also in so much denial. Yes. And I think that could also be part of where the real tragedy comes into play. Like, again, I think Greg has behaved monstrously inside of their marriage. But, like, there is a chance that Tanya, after hearing those two snippets and pieces of those two whispered phone calls and her suspicion is mounting. and then he leaves on the trip that she planned. Said he'd be back in two days. He's not back.

If she has, because we hear her say, even before they go to Palermo, that she tells one of the things she says to Portia at breakfast is like, I called this dude and asked about an annulment. Like, she's not. Yeah, she's done with him. Yeah.

And like maybe has actually swung too far in the other direction and could her guilt, not only of what she has since done, but of perhaps misjudging the severity of the situation if she has, lead her to behave in a certain way. That said, whatever the motive is, like, I think we all agree unambiguously that Greg and Quentin are conning her. Like, if we think again of that operas, and I think that captures a lot of this, like, duality and the Joe, the point you made about multiple things can be true at once, which is very much another, like, theme of the season. What happens in that box is so telling.

Quentin and everyone he's with, they're not even subtly mocking, Tanya. this is a person who is a play thing to them. But when Quentin reaches out and puts his hand on top of Hotanias and they are both, the tears are streaming down their face, I think also that emotional response and shared moment is sincere. And like the fact that both of those things can be true is what makes it such a fucked up brew? And I think the same with Jack and Portia, right?

Like, you know, like Jack has been tasked clearly with distracting Portia throughout, getting her out of the way. But I also think, like, you know, a guy who, uh, you know, seems to be maybe straight or at least by or whatever, like has been having sex with men or asked to flirt with like older women. And he's like, oh, someone my age, like there, there is like affection and excitement there along with the con that he's rolling. To go back to that Greg phone call, what he says, right, is he says, yeah, she's clueless as usual. I mean, I'll be home tomorrow, give you a call when I get in. All right. Yeah, I love you too. Right. Okay. She's clueless as

usual. Couldn't mean so many things. She's clueless to the fact that I'm having an affair. That's the most, that's the easiest read on that, but seems too easy. She's clueless that I'm sick again was sort of like my read on it. She's clueless as to this, that or the other thing. And then the I love you too, Starly and I were talking about this a little bit on Twitter, but I love you too. sounds so like kind of begrudging to me, like that it just seems to me like a moment where Quentin would say, I love you and Greg,

who doesn't like love him the way that Quentin loves him, but like either needs something from him or they've known each over 30 years or whatever, it's just sort of like, yeah, yeah, I love you too. Like, yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah, I don't, I, yeah, upon when you go, it's a really great detail because it's the kind of thing

when you go back and you watch it, I definitely when I first heard it, but it was just, blatant little just a fairies having. But when you go back, he does, the performance is such that it makes sense. I watched it after you and I talked on Twitter, and it makes sense that it could be to Quentin, and he's still straight. Some people seem to think that Greg's gay, and I'm like, he's not gay.

Quentin said he wasn't gay. Like, he said he was straight. That's the tragedy of this. Yeah. And I think the clueless is so interesting. Like, I think Tanya falling in the middle of this Daphne, I think it's, you know, Daphne will not let the reality in. You know, she, she disassociates in real time.

Tanya, I think there's something, Tanya is the romantic of this show, and there's something, and it's why we're able to still follow Tanya even after being so upset with her last season, and to know all the things that are true about her and still root for her, or at least not want her to be killed,

like, not want to be caught, I don't want her to be hurt, even though I know what she did, and is capable of... I saw a video of Jennifer Coolidge talking about the way that Mike White draws these characters

and she says, you know, he can see all the worst behaviors in people. She's like, and he gives them a break. And I was like, that's such a good, like, description of Tanya,

because, like, Tanya is, but he's, but is Mike White the kind of writer who wants to relentlessly punish a Tanya? A Tanya who just seems so, like, pathetic

in so many ways, she causes harm, but is also pathetic at the same time, do you know? And I think Mike White's, kind of writer who wants to show how people are and people are all these things.

Like, I think he wants to show, and this is her being the only character that he's kept for another season, there's something so tragic and sympathetic about her. Greg says, she's clueless as always, and then to watch her go, have that conversation

with Portia and say, how did I not see it? How did I not see it? I'm filing a paper. I do think she's, she, at that point, she's like, Greg, I'm not a fool. I'm not a fool. I know what my husband did. And then, to watch her proceed to literally deny what is in front of her because she wants to believe that someone loves her and that there is and that people are good. You can't, it shows it like even when you resolve to not be clueless and to like go into

the eyes open, it's not really in your control. I do want to mention just one thing really quickly, which is the godfather theory, which is the fact that Tanya, this is the only thing for, for the finale trailer, I want to point out, which is that Tanya is wearing literally the same dress. I have looked at it from many angles that the Apollonia mannequin in the car on the Godfather luncheon is wearing bizarre detail. Porsche is wearing a Godfather shirt with the exploding car on it that she got at that self-same luncheon. You know, we see Tanya eating oranges, which is the sign that someone's going to die in the Godfather. Again, this could be a very Mike White winking at the audience sort of thing.

oranges around everyone all season though. Yeah, but there's a common theory is that something meant for Tanya will hurt Portia instead, which is what happens with Apollonia and the godfather, and which would feed into this idea of like the working class. If we port that idea over from season one, the working class being Portia taking the punishment, quote unquote, meant for someone like Tanya, over whom things just slide off of. Mal, anything else do you want to say?

I feel like Portia's going to be okay. I'm pretty worried about Jack. Tell me. I just think like all of the dead people are going to be men, as we've been discussing today. That's what I'm hoping for. On the godfather front, what is everyone thinking and how is everyone feeling about a,

not just a reference or an allusion to, but a direct mafia tie? in the finale at some point because we've gotten a lot of mafia mentions. Obviously, the heavy presence and through line of the godfather and Joe, those those fashion signifiers that you just mentioned and the oranges are part of it. But with Quentin, it's come up, right? Like, influential family. Yeah.

We don't, we don't say that word in Palermo. Like, is a mafia tie going to surface in terms of maybe. what is fueling the very, like, urgent nature of Quentin's pursuit of cash. That's a great idea. It doesn't seem off the table. Maybe that's what Bert's been up to. Maybe he's the head of the mom. I mean, that I would love.

Starly, all I have to say is that if something really wild and hinky happens in front finale, I'll be thinking about you. And I will be wishing you well. Herd just emerging as a capo in the finale would be iconic. I would love it. I just, what else, just in a grand, in a shoot, in a wide net of Bert's up to something, just that alone. Because what else, what is his head, what is the head bandage, if not that?

I hope we find out, I don't hope this, but I hope we find out that F. Murray Abraham just like literally bumped his head and they had to work it into the script. And Starly's like, my, my yard wall, damn it. Oh, my goodness. No matter what happens with Bert, I think we can all agree that we are better for having watched a television series in which Bert said. said, it's a penis. It's not a sunset. Remarkable. I think, yeah, those are your house words, right, Mel? I think that I think to conclude, to wrap things up.

Yes. Not my, not the final, final words. But I just want to say that, like, this, the theme, the, the, the references we've gotten to Madam Butterfly, that specifically Michael goes to Cicilli plot line of the godfather, and Laventura, which got an overt reference. with the scene with Harper surrounded by all the men when they were in Noto and is like a Monica VT, you know, Lavantura is on their mind as they're doing this. In all of those pieces of art, men are unfaithful pieces of shit. Like Michael ditches Kay and to go Marriapolonia in Sicily.

Like that's not why he's in Sicily, but like, you know, there's, you know, a modern butterfly she gets abandoned and fucked over by her lover, Pinkerton, right? And then Laventura has this guy in the middle who like maybe killed a woman then fucks another woman. It's like a whole thing. So like the shittiness of men is something that is definitely on Mike White's mind this season and the various flavors that that takes and especially the beta male shittiness, the more insidious, less overt shittiness of men is something that is on the show's mind for sure. Right. So screw around and you'll end up buried in the garden, right? That's like right there in the premiere. Yeah. So unless he goes bedroom farce. And let's say it's really the bedroom farce is going to keep all the way till the end and it's just going to be like the wackiest of murders.

What I found so satisfying about the death in season one is it just did not play out at all how I expected. I found it perfect. It was so, it was one of the most satisfying conclusions I've ever seen to something. It, it, even when we knew we had guesses about who would be involved, we never saw it coming how it was going to happen. I would just, and I know they ever predicted the cowboy, and it turned out to be the cowboy, their theory was right, like so, but I just feel like that's going to happen again. We're just, we just don't

know how it's going to go down. Like, it's going to surprise us. I think it's going to be satisfying and surprising. I think, yeah, unexpected, but inevitable, I think is sort of, you know, when it happens, you're not like, holy shit, where'd that come from? Right.

When Armand meets the business end of a knife, you're like, buddy, you've been spiling down all season. and like this is where you were headed or, you know, Jake Lace's character's name. I can't remember being on the other side of the knife, right? Shane. Shane, thank you.

Very earned, very earned, too. That's a very survivor name, right? Mallory, anything else you want to say? The only other thing I wanted to chat about for a minute was the opening credits. And if those are laden with clues, the visuals because of the specific pairings, like what particular rendering we are seeing paired with each performer's, name and how how far into those clues we should be. We should be reading. When do you think? Yeah, there's people with like bloody knives in their hands, people falling downstairs,

like all sorts of stuff. Building at a top of cliff on fire, panning to a vessel in the water, panning two, a blowjob, panning two, two goats fucking. It's a rich text. Oh my God. I hope we get the goats fucking at the very least in the finale. The blow job, the blow job turned out to be true. So that's already been shown. That's right. That's right. There's one where it's Lita and the Swan. And like people pointed out that Valentina with Mia and her like feathered dress was very Lita and the Swan sort of moment.

We have the Aubrey Plaza's name is paired with the fighting birds in the sky. A lot of people were excited to find out that Cameron has a bird tattoo that was revealed in this episode. So, you know, if the birds fighting are somehow Cameron and Ethan, who knows? Also, one last thing we forgot to mention is the pill theory. People are tracking so many missing pills and mistaken pills and all that sort of stuff. So we wouldn't be surprised with something pill-related happened. I love that I didn't pick that. I love that missing Ambien.

I love not, we keep, they talk a lot about the Viagra and that, but then the, do they, they don't mention the Ambien beyond the first or so episode, right? Harper says that she found it. She's relieved that she found it. Then she offers later in the season. she asks Ethan if he wants an ambient and he says no. Oh, yeah. But she also then hands Daphne aspirin at dinner.

So there's like an exchanging of pills happening among members of that, that group. Could be. Portia could be troubling if everybody goes out into the water. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Also the dad, what's his name?

F. Maria Abraham in that first at the beginning when they ask him, when, when Albee asks them, can you still get it up? Is it possible? And he says, I have pills. Yeah, and the reason that Tanya said that she, like, disassociated and thought about. Right. Greg dead was shark eyes because of the pill she took on the flight. So there you go. All right.

Well, I think we've covered everything and covered all of our bases. If anything happens, I feel like people will be like, wow, you guys really called it as you went through literally everything that could possibly happen. And then possibly, per Starly's request, Mike White will surprise us. And it's not anything that we even considered on this sheet at all. Well, I love the, what did you say? Inevitable, but unexpected, but inevitable. Unexpected, but inevitable. That's what I think.

That is what I think is going to happen. And that's the most satisfying kind of ending you could have to something. Starly, was there anything you wanted to plug before we head out of here? I want to plug a thing that I did not make, have anything to do with, but it's a podcast called Bone Valley. It's very, it will make you very frustrated and upset. heartbroken and I don't know. I've really been, I've really, it's about a man

who's wrongfully convicted in prison and I just feel very strongly that I want people to listen to it. I had nothing to do with making it. I know the people involved, but it's only because I listen to it. And then, and I'm so I'm just spreading the word about it if that's okay.

So that's my plug. I love a plug. I love a plug for someone else. Bone Valley. Bowen Valley. Thank you so much for coming on and doing this experiment with us about theories

and White Lotus. Malie Rubin and I will be back with Bill Simmons after the finale on Monday to talk about what we saw in the finale. And then we have one more wrap-up White Lotus episode after that on Tuesday that I can't fully talk about yet, but we'll see what we see when we see it on Tuesday. This episode was produced by the lovely Sasha Asheville. And we will see you soon. Bye. Relax and let Ralph's delivery handle your grocery shopping this week. Start with only the freshest items. Then review your list and carefully choose each one. Then we pack it all up and deliver it in as little as 30 minutes. So you can feel confident it's what you ordered. Fresh groceries, your way with Ralph's delivery and pickup. Get free delivery during online deal days plus $30 off your first online order. Ralph's, fresh for everyone.