The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘The White Lotus’ Season 2 Post-Finale Q&A With Mike White

Episode Date: December 13, 2022

Joanna Robinson is joined by Mike White, writer and director of ‘The White Lotus,’ to discuss the second season of the show, including his inspirations for the story lines, his reaction to the copious fan theories that flooded the internet, the execution of the season finale, and a little bit about what next season might look like. Host: Joanna Robinson Guest: Mike White Producer: Sasha Ashall Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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You'll be that friend's friend, but with rewards. What are you waiting for? Expedia. The one place you go to go places. Worms apply. Back into the Prestige TV podcast feed, I'm Joyner Robinson, and this is a very special post-finally reaction episode on the prestige feed with the writer and director of every episode of White Lotus.

It is Mike White. Mike White is here today to talk to us very generously and at length on the Monday morning after the finale aired about some of the real-life inspirations for the season, some of the things that landed exactly how he wanted them to, and also to talk a little bit about some of your fan theories. So let's go now to my conversation with Mike White. Mike White, thank you so much for joining us. I wanted to start by asking you a director question. I have a ton of writer questions for you, but I'm very curious about the final shootout with Tanya, Jennifer Coolidge, in the way in which you chose to keep the camera on her the whole time. So I'm wondering if you could talk about

break down those decisions for us. Oh, well, I don't know. I was just thinking like, I mean, my biggest fear of that whole thing was going to be like, you know, Tanya gets a guy. Like the campiness would be just too much even for me. Like I have a tolerance for a little camp. But like, so I was just like, how do we keep this feeling, you know, not like some goofy, you know, I don't know. I was just like, I was like, I just feel like we stay with her panic and her fear and her pain or like her, like the terror of it. like it would, it still would feel like the show in a way. And the more it became like a shoot-em-up, you know, like, and like seeing it, you know,

and then when it actually came together, I liked it just because it felt a little more like, you know, you need hear all the things that are going on, but it's off camera and you're just staying with her like, you know, crazy face. I just felt it had, it created its own sort of suspense, I guess. And so, you know, maybe it's also because I'm just, you know, I'm not a, experienced director with like, you know, an action gun sequence and was just like, let's just play to my strengths as well. So I'm not, uh, show, we have people like, you know, blood splattering and, you know, all that.

No, I thought it was really effective. And Jennifer's so good, uh, in that whole, I mean, throughout, but in that whole sequence. Um, I want to ask you before the season debuted, I was reading an interview gave, I think it was to The Guardian where you were talking about which character you'll identify with most and you you picked Tom Hollander's character, Quentin. I did. Where was this? In The Guardian. Oh, okay. And, you know, I've heard you talk about Armand in season one. So I was just curious, you know, what we should think about these characters you identify with dying at the end of your seasons of television.

Well, the reason I said I relate to Quentin is because I feel like I was doing to Jennifer what Quentin was doing to Tanya, which is like, I was like, I wanted to bring her to Italy. I'm going to like, and like it was like, Jennifer, you know, what kind of things do you want to do when you know? It's like, like, she's like, oh, it'd be just great to be on a Vespah and like guys trying to like, I mean, literally some of the dialogue that we used in the show. And so I was like, I want her to have. have this great send-off. You know what I mean?

But in my head, I'm always, like, heading to, like, you know, to kill her. And so it was like, let's give her this bravura, like storyline.

She gets to do all these fun things in Italy and wear cool clothes and blah, blah, blah. But then also, like, there's also a part of me that where I'm torturing her.

Like, I, like, I always put her, like, she has seasickness and she doesn't like to be on boats. And,

like, I've now written too big, like, like both in first season and second season she's been on a boat like there's just times where I'm just like am I like her like her guardian angel

or am I her little devil like there's times it's like I just there's is a little bit of like and then it kind of speaks to this whole like I think you know there's a gay which I'm actually trying to get out a little bit with the storyline in the show but like gay

men's infatuations with certain kinds of women and like why those women and what and that there I think there's a like a little bit of sadism in it it's like they they really appreciate women but then they also you know the you know like the women that are classically you know divas for gay guy you know like you know the judy gar it's like they also like to see them suffer and, you know, there's a pleasure to watching, like, women's pain if it's done in the right way, I think, for gay guys. So it was just like, and so, you know, I just was like, you know, the idea of like a woman who's like, you know, disappointed in love.

And like, then she finds these great gay guys. And it's like they're going to like, she's going to like have this, you know, Stella gets her group back, you know. And then, but they really are there to like torture her. So anyway, so I, I, I, yeah, it makes me sound like I am diabolical. Maybe I am. But I, but it's really more, it just felt like it was like, you know, they said which character you relate to? I was like, well, I mean, as I'm as a director, like, I'm like, you know, setting up

all this whole thing and like, like, it feels like Quinn was doing that too, which was like, kind of like, you know, he probably feels bad about, you know, killing her. So he's going to like justify it by giving her, you know, a big party and she's going to get late and then like, you know what I mean? Like have her, have her, you know, like a great final hurrah. And so I was doing the same thing. I love that. I feel like the moment and Tom Holland are so good, but I feel like the moment that

juxtaposition of appreciation and, I don't know, like patronizing almost comes in the opera sequence, right? Where she's surrounded by these men who are rolling their eyes at her, but also sharing this genuine emotional connection with Quintan as they're watching about a Butterfly. And that, like, there's, it feels like there's that duality throughout the season where two things can be true. Like, Lucia can be scamming Albi, but also kind of like Albi at the same time. Like, what, how much do you see that being an important part of the characters you want to give us?

Is this two things, two conflicting things can be true at one time, you know? I mean, if, I, I mean, to be honest, I feel like that is maybe the best way to, describe like what I usually go for all the time. I feel like I, that's, I, that's what I like in a character and I like, you know, I like that sense of, uh, you like them, but do you like them? Like are they, are they, yeah, like, uh, you know, having mixed complex feelings about the characters is my, I guess, I guess people would say that that is a defining characteristic of what I do.

And I don't, and I, I don't know. And it's not conscious, but like, yeah, over time, I just, if I, if it feels too likeable or too straightforward or, you know, it doesn't have, you know, it's like, it feels like something's missing for me. So. And at the same time, it's like if it's too, you know, biting or too gnarly, it, it, it feels wrong too. It has to have some sweet in there, you know.

So it's like, so yeah. It's just, you know, like, whatever, you're a chef. You want it a little bit, you know, like you want to, you know, it's like you, yeah, you want a taste, a complex taste, I guess, right? Yeah, well, it's, it's interesting because this is, as you said, and everyone has said, the, you know, the sort of sex season of White Lotus, the, I think you called it a bedroom farce with teeth, which I loved. I wanted to ask you about this idea of transactional sex.

Sex. that's not just in the Mia and Lucia storyline, but in Cameron and Daphne's relationship, all over the place, there's this idea of transactional relationships. And is there a way in which those relationships are more honest than, you know, the sex that we see is romantic?

Or does romantic love even exist in the White Lotus universe, I guess is my question? This is a good question. You know, I am somebody, it is hard for me to, yeah, I do think that like, I guess, you know, I grew up, not to get too personal, but like, witnessing women having very, like, having their hearts broken a lot over and over. And like in a, and in the case of like someone very close to me, it was like debilitating. You know what I mean? where it was just like, and, and, well, I'll just tell you, like, my, my, my, my dad was gay. He was married to my mom, and then they divorced, and my mom couldn't, you know, she was so

distraught and devastated and, and, and then realized that her whole, the whole whole relationship was like, you know, like, it wasn't what she thought of what, you know what I mean? And like, yeah. And so, like, I've just been, I've kind of an anti-romantic in the sense of, like, don't give away your power. Like, don't, Like, it's like, it's good to love someone and attachment is inevitable. But, like, there's a lot of mythologizing around romance and that is very, that can really work against you. And that is, you know, yeah, you're living in a, you know, it's like, it's, you know, like,

White Lotus gets into self-created problems. Like, like, these people are creating problems for themselves. You know what I mean? They don't really have problems. And to me, romance is the, you know, the definition of self-created problems. You know what I mean? You're like, you've decided to give up your, the power of your self-narrative to this idea of, you know, like some kind of, you know, and maybe that's cynical. But like I do, you know, and then it does make you go like, you know, there's other ways to engage sexually and with other people, you know, transactional, you know, obviously there's.

it's like I'm not I'm this isn't a pro transactional sex show but I do but but but you know like what I like about me and Lucita is that they know what they want they go and they get it and they're not they're not like and and you know you compare that with Tanya where she's living

you know she's so obsessive about you know like a Greg and and also she just wants to like in a way it's almost like and I know women like this where they like to finger the wound you know what I mean like they like they like to live in the pain of it, you know what I mean?

And I find that, yeah, they're tragic people, and that's why they have a tragic. I mean, in this case, she has a tragic ending, but. I think that cynicism, you know, you mentioned the various ingredients you want to put in this particular recipe. And I think that, like, the cynicism of some of that aspect of White Lotus is balanced with, I find the me and Lucia friendship, relationship, partnership to be completely. completely pure and beautiful. And I was wondering you talk about the decision to end on them,

that they would be the end of this particular story. Yeah, that kind of friendship, I believe. I mean, yeah, I like them because they know what they want, and they're also there to help each other. They're boosting each other. They're supporting each other. They can lean on each other. And, you know, then you compare that to like Tanya and Portia,

where there's all of this, like, you know, blame. and like projection and, you know, like, and also they live in this kind of haze of their own, like, what do they want? And, you know, and so, so yeah, I felt like it's like, you know, you have Tony Die. And then, you know, I felt like, well, let's give Portia a little hope.

But then, like, me and Lucia, like, you know, like, yeah, in a way, they, like, you know, it's hard because they're sex workers. So, like, it feels like it's really about, you know, like, if people take it literally, it's like, go out and, you know, like, work as a sex worker. which is not really what I'm saying,

but it's just like what I, what I do appreciate about them is like, they have goals, they know what they want, they're there to like, you know, they're there to write their own story. And that's that,

I guess that's my attitude with like, when it comes to like romance and stuff where it's just like, you know, it's good to, you know, love people and it's good to, you know,

whenever you, we have to navigate sex and everything. And, but at the same time, keep writing your story. Don't, don't get confused. You know what I mean? Don't, don't, don't end up like,

going down some wormhole in some romance and then losing your way for yourself, you know. So is that, I mean, that feels like the narrative we're supposed to hold on to for someone like Daphne who has, you know, staunchly decided that she's not the victim

in this story that Cameron can get up to, whatever he gets up to, but she's like, I'm taking control of what I feel like I can control in this. And she has that great line about, You know, you don't need to know everything about someone to love them. And there also seems to be, I mean, I love that this season ends with Ethan and Harper being a little bit more Cameron and Daphne or much more Cameron and Daphne than they were than when they started. But like, is this about contentment and dishonesty? Is it about just being, like keeping those walls up a little bit?

And so finding some safety inside of a relationship because like Ethan and Harper are constantly saying to each other, oh, I never lie to you. I'm always telling you truth. I'm always telling the truth. And then they find this happiness in this other space, or is that a fleeting happiness? What do you think? I, you know, I do kind of agree with Daphne. I mean, it's colored by the fact that her husband is such a, such a, like, cat, you know.

I mean, he's, you know, he's, I mean, he's pretty extreme. So, like, you know, but obviously she's made some kind of, you know, internal bargain that she is okay with. So but but I and and to me it's just like I just think in general, we create the narratives of our relationships. We decide what like, you know, it's like it's like we we decide to put what importance on fidelity. We, you know, if we've been, you know, betray, you know, like it's we put, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, just has a very strong. sense of how she's going to tell the narrative of her relationship. And, and, and I like that part of her. You know what I mean?

Like, I don't, you know, I don't, you know, obviously it's, it is complex because it's like, it does feel like it's, you know, it's not a relationship. I would want, I wouldn't want to be like in that, you know, necessarily in that situation that she's in. But like, but like, but I do feel like it's like, if you're going to be, you know, it's like, get out of that relationship or if you're going to be in the relationship, like, figure out how to make, you know, feel good about it. And that's what she's doing.

You know what I mean? So it's like he can go and be like the biggest like, you know, slees. But she's like, I'm going to, okay, I'm going to figure out a way to make that feel not painful for me. And so I guess I'm just, I don't know. This conversation has made me realize something about myself. But it's like, yeah, I'm just, I'm not interested in being in pain. Like I don't like, like I don't like pain.

I don't like to be sad. And I don't like to think. of my life in sad ways. I want to feel like it's, you know, so, so I, so I, so I like, I do like characters that are, like me and Lucia, like, I, you know, and then Daphne as well, it's just like, you know, and then the, you know, like the, the portion is the opposite where she's just like, I just want to be fulfilled. She's like, it's like, she's waiting for something to come along and like make her whole

as opposed to like seeing that she's, you know, she's the, she can create her own story, whatever. So, and then as far as what you're asking about Ethan and Harper, I also think that that's true, too, is that sometimes, you know, it's like I find in certain relationships, and especially when I was younger, you know, it's like that this obsessive desire to feel like I'm totally in lockstep with my partner or like, and that, that, you know, there's really no, you know, gray area of what I know, you know, like, it's just like this feeling of like possession of just the, the truth of their life and what they do and like their and their desire and all that stuff. And that I feel like that is both like a feudal endeavor because, you know, you don't really even know yourself, let alone fully know somebody else. But then also like this feeling that like, you know, if somebody has desire outside of their desire, you know, it's not like I'm necessarily saying, I don't know if relationship, I mean, I'm not a relationship expert for sure, for sure.

But like, I feel like people, you know, it's like I do think that, so I'm not saying like open relationships are healthier than none of it. But I do, I do think the attitude of just like, you know, maybe certain things you can let it go. You know, like it's maybe maybe you could live in the mystery of something and it isn't, you know, that's okay. You know, so I like that as an idea for maybe something true about relationships, I guess. I want to ask you about sort of the flip side of that in this season, which is you mentioned Portia and she has this sort of room with a view fantasy that she's going to find some Italian man to throw on her bed or something like that. And you've got Bert's fantasy of this Sicilian homecoming. These fantasies, you've got, of course, Tanya's Monica Viti fantasy, these fantasies that end up having their own teeth to them that are dangerous. And I was wondering, you know, obviously you've mentioned Fantasy Island a million times as sort of this analog for this series that you're doing. But what are you trying to say about the nature of fantasy in the season of television?

Well, definitely the fantasies always are, you know, you don't, you know, the pressure to live up to the fantasy is a source of pain and disappointment. That's, you know, a truism. And also when you're as a dramatist, it's just, it's so ripe to like, you know, if you, if you put Jennifer Coolidge on the back of the vest, but yeah, there's going to be a butt fling, you know, like it's like you can't be just, you know, perfect day, you know. So that I'm just, you know, it's just like, I just can't. Yeah, it's like they go to, if they go to, you know, they want to have the homecoming and, you know, have, have like, you know, You know, to me, Bert, the idea that, like, you know, he's probably pissed off women his whole life,

but still lives in this bubble of, like, you know, my wife loved me and I loved her and, you know, everything's great. And then he's, you know, he thinks he's going to, like, you know, have this family reunion. And that's like, and these, you know, even women who don't even know him from across the world are angry about something. And they're like, he's never going to have, yeah, he's like that it undermines this like, this, like, like, yeah, delusion he's trying to keep together. It's just fun. It's just fun to, like, yeah, set people, set characters up to have their, you know, their bubbles burst.

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which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-99-9 or visit zepbounce.lily.com. I think it's so interesting, you know, when you refer to season one's theme of class bumping up against each other, you've got, you know, the working class, the employees of the hotel versus the guests. In this season, you introduced this sort of intermediary level, which is the pretender class. And, you know, your scammers or your, your Quintins who are Pilateau-Rish cash poor, stuff like that.

And I was wondering if you could talk about what that pretender class, why that interests you? Well, it's just funny because it's like you, you know, as I've gotten more successful and I've been exposed to, you know, because I'm from very, like, I don't know, like my family is, yeah, there's no money. in my family and, and, you know, but like, as I've gotten more successful and I've met more you realize how many rich people are poor, you know what I mean? Like, just because of how they live, how they live and like, it's like, and you go like, you know, when you're young, you're like, God, if I made X amount of money, I would be set forever. And it's like, and I try to, like, you know, I try to live within, you know, that, but I, you know, obviously as you whatever, but like but I but I've seen people who like have way more money than me and are like yeah like are

just you know it's like because I don't know you know it's like yeah which just feels like you know yeah for white lotus it just feels like it's like it's like you know that rich people often are just it's just like you you're surprised when you like meet movie stars and they're the most star fuckery people you know you're like okay so you know what I'm like I don't know. Like, I guess if you, if you're, if you value money, then, you know, it's like you can go really, you can go extreme. You know, you really value, you know, materialism. And it just feel like that feels like a perfect villain for White Lotus.

I promised a friend of mine I would ask you this question because this is a theory of hers, which is that, or I'll ask you this, how is, is Cameron broke? Is Cameron one of those rich broke guys? What do you think? I think he probably does well. I mean, I know that there's been speculation online that he's, like, that maybe that was going to be one of the mysteries that one of the things that gets revealed. Yeah. No, I think he's, you know, he's, he's, he's just, you know, like a, you know, I think he is,

you know, I think it's true that like, Ethan now, you know, he sees him as a bag of money that he can, he can, you know, get in on that, you know, it's like. And so I think he's just ambitious. and is probably good at his job, which is like trying to get people's money to invest with him so he can have some of their money. So yeah, so like, but I think my sense is he probably is successful because he's one of those guys that seems like he would be successful.

You mentioned, so you're aware of like online fan theories and I've talked to some TV creators who fan theories stress them out because they don't want to like, they don't want to, they don't want anyone to accurately get. but they also don't want people to have overblown false expectations of how a season might wrap up, something like that. You've sort of backwards stumbled into being a creator of a theory show because you've put these dead bodies in here as you talked about a way to hook things in. And now White Lotus is a theory show on top of a comedy of manners or a sex farce or whatever you want to call it. Do fan theories stress you out?

Do you enjoy them? What do you think about them? Well, this last week was risk crazy. I mean, I just never experienced anything like it as far as just like realizing how many things people were. I mean, how they were crowdsourcing the clues to what's going to happen. And, yeah, obviously I don't come into it thinking, I mean, this one does have a, yeah, there's like, you know, there's hijinks. Like there's a real, like, you know, there is a plot of it with the Jennifer storyline. I mean, what was funny is that like people are so far ahead.

of it that like by the, you know, like, what I have found in music was like, well, it's not going to be tawny because that's just too, at this point, it's too obvious. I was like, and like, you know, me, I'm writing and I'm like, is this going to be too, like, do I need to, you know, I was thinking the opposite where I was like, are people going to be able to put this all together? I'm like, not only they put it together, they're like way ahead of me. So like, I think that that's something, you know, it's, I think the internet allows that because I think, you know, in another era, like, even, when I was still writing, like, you know, you didn't have this kind of crowd sourcing.

And so you have a lot of people who are like, wait, what is that? What was that picture? Who are those people? You know, like, it's like, we even had a note from HBO was like, should she pick it up and be like, Greg? So like the, and I'm like, I don't know. I think that'll be okay. But like, it's like, I actually suffer from that a little bit.

It was like, is this too unclear? And then like, you realize like, no, you know, everyone's like talking online and they're, they've already figured it all out. but it doesn't stress me out. It's funny. It's just weird for me because it's just like, you know, when you start out trying to be a writer, it's like you're telling people your dream.

And, you know, like in real life, when you tell someone, your dream, everyone's like, could care a lot. Nobody wants to know your dream. Like, it's like, it's just, you know, like, you see the eyes fluttering back. And then like, in this case,

it's like, I have this dream, like, Tanya. And like, then you have the whole world, or it feels like everybody, where you're like, wait, what happened? So in this. dream, you went to thing and she goes, like, that it's, it's like inspired so much, you know, emotion and people are so incite. I mean, it's so flat. I mean, it's flattering. But it's also, like, I'm like, I don't even understand. You know, I can't say that I, to think that that would

actually happen is just so outside of anything I would have ever expected. So I mean, I like it. But, but yeah, I was, I was stupefied as long as I could say. Well, as your calibrate. writing sort of how obvious or unobvious to make a murder plot seem. How much fun then are you having with Red Herrings? Like when you have Cameron and Ethan have their fight in the water, you know what I mean? And you're actively playing with audience expectation there. Like what is what is that like in your writing process?

I mean, it's fun. And I also, you know, my feeling was I thought it would be, yeah, it's like when Quinn is like watching Portia and, and jacket in their car. You know, it's like, to me, I'm like, at that point, like, we know they're, it's, their evil gaze. They're trying to get her money. Like, I just, it's like, to me, it was like, I, I didn't really realize it was like,

the same was the first season. I was like, I didn't really realize so much, how much, like, energy was put to, like, who was going to die. And, like, but I, but, and I, and I didn't think it was going to be obvious that Tonya's died, but, like, I felt like that was clear that, like, that was where that was headed. And so it was more like, to me in my mind, it was like an opera where it's like, you know, like this woman is, it's like, and you kind of almost know the writing is on the wall, but just watching it unfold and her as this like, yeah, tragic opera heroine, that there's just a pleasure in watching the inexorable fate, you know, unfold. So, but yeah, that it was seen so much as this mystery. And I think it's just everybody was overthink. You know, it's like, like 95% of the theories people were positing, I was like, that would be a shocker, but like, there's no way that would feel earned or justified in this story.

Like, there's no way, like, if I did that, it would be, it would be a shocker, but it wouldn't be a satisfying conclusion, I don't think, you know, because it would just, like, if Daphne kills, like, like, there was like lots where it was like, is the super village did it kill like Cameron and either I don't know, someone ever since like that is a totally different show. Like it's not this show. I don't know. I feel like it's a maybe interesting show, but it's not my show. I don't know.

As a dramatist, I would not know how to pull that off. I wanted to ask you, you know, you mentioned your dad coming out and I was wondering seeing some of that storyline in Valentina's journey here, like discovering her or at least embracing her own sexuality like later in life. And then also,

you know, you've talked about the fact that you took a sort of heritage trip with your dad. So looking at the DeGrasso family and their storyline and how that, and I'm wondering how much are you intentionally actively sort of refracting some of that really core relationship for yourself between you and your dad into this season of television? You know, I, as a writer, I think it's fun. to try to like create new voices that are not me and and and create this constellation of different voices that are totally not me. But like, but then I also feel like the only way I can really do that is also to for them to be me. So like I have to have some kind of like I mean, obviously it's like

I need to feel like I get it. Like I get what they're, you know, they're there. So I do think that I I am drawing a lot on personal stuff, because I feel like then it feels more, at least I know, then I can access it. I know how to talk about it with actors. I know how to, you know, find whatever. But so, yeah, I, you know, like, and then certainly I went on this trip with my dad, and it just felt so inspiring to me as far as, like, somebody that was right with as, like, somebody in my, you know, middle age.

Like, it was like, you know, having an older father who's, you know, he's, you know, he's, and dealing with mortality and stuff, it just felt like that would be worth considering putting in the show. Steal it from life. Steal from the best yourself. Since you're aware of online fan theories, are you aware of this sort of viral TikTok video about this moment from Survivor

and people identifying it as the Genesis for White Lotus? You mean when Angelida asks for a jacket? Yeah. I cannot say that that is the genesis of White Lotus, but that was one of the great moments of my life. For sure. I was sort of refreshing myself on this so-called Jacket Gate from that season of Survivor. And there's this quote from Natalie, the owner of the jacket in T.H.R.

Where she says something about, she's talking about the gameplay. And she says, Mike didn't lead anything. the entire time we were out there. And I'm curious if you feel like that's true, or are you the kind of person who is good at leading while not seeming to lead something on a game like Survivor? Are you trying to bring back the Natalie versus Mike White beef? No.

No, no. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Like, you know, Natalie, yes. I think at that point in the game when she was still in it,

I had been in trouble. Like, people were, had just caught me looking for an idol. So, like, I, I knew that in order to, I had to recalibrate my game. And so that, the way to do that was just like, I'm just here to have fun. Like, I'm just like, I became, I intentionally became, I'm not a power player. I'm not, I'm like, you know, like, nothing to see here. You know, like, so that was a strategy. So I think she, she saw that as.

that's who I am and that's not really who I am. Because I do, obviously, I do like, I do like to be in charge. But I'm also somebody who, when I am in charge, I don't like to, like, Natalie is somebody who does not stay, is she, like, strength is something that she needs to project. She does not want to look weak. She does it all day long. You know what I mean? So like, for her, like, my style, she doesn't even see it as, yeah, she doesn't see it

as leadership or whatever. She just sees it as like, I'm a weak, I don't know, he should. probably just a weirdo who's just like a dog whistle. She's just not here. She doesn't hear. She's just, she likes expression of strength. And that's just not something that I do even when I am in charge where I'm just like,

you know, standing on the ceremony of being, you know, having a position over people, power over people. I'm curious. I think it's so fascinating to learn that you got the idea of the theme of this season when you location scouted.

in Sicily, that this had to be a sex sort of based season. And I'm curious, that's such an interesting way to crack a season of television. And I'm curious, if you feel like at this point, White Lotus was never intended to be a long series or a franchise, but do you feel like you have a White Lotus process, or do you feel like you want your process to be different every season for however long you want to do this? Yeah, I mean, I feel like, I think the show,

needs to not start to feel like a formula. So I just, I mean, and also that it goes against my own like, you know, ethos or my own writerly intense is to like, you know, like I'm not, I, I, I, the problem,

the reason I was, it's been hard for me to work in TV is because I'm not somebody who just wants to I mean, I like to blow things out. You know what I mean? I don't want to just maintain, you know, like, I don't like returning all the characters to a status of, you know what I mean? I like it. And also I just like different tones, different kinds of, you know, it's like, I wanted to feel

like creatively fresh for me. And so, and what I love about this thing and why I feel so lucky that like White Lotus people are watching this and that HBO like now like is into it or whatever is that I feel like it's really just incumbent on me to make it cool. Like it's like, it's, it can be any, it can, there's so many things it can be. And so like, I just need to, yeah. So like I want to, I want to live up to the, the, yeah, the, you know, it's like if I have this much creative freedom, I want to like, yeah, I don't want to, I, I want it to be inspired and feel fresh. So like, it's like, you know, obviously there's just an element, which is like maybe a week at a hotel or something, but beyond that, like, it could be so many things. And so I, So yeah, and also going to a new place and getting inspired by a new place is just so, yeah, just so cool and fun. And isn't my dream. This is my dream.

Because I'm kind of like, it's like part of me is like I wanted to be a travel writer too. And like so, you know, like to go somewhere new and travel. Like I'm not in some, you know, like sounds to stage in Burbank or something. I'm just like, this is like, yeah. So like like the fact that we're like now planning a list like scouting trip and like. Asia and these country and I'm just like, this is, I'm, I'm just like, yes, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is the perfect gig for me. I mean, it may not be for everybody, but just like, I'm so, yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't, that wasn't a certain question, but like, yes, they answer. Like, uh, I feel like it's like, I, you know, like, yeah,

then now the pressure's on, especially because like, I don't know, people keep, I don't know, like, I thought, I, I, I never thought we would get the reaction that we got for the first. I, I, I didn't, I, I just don't expect, I mean, I'm just used to, like, making things and nobody shows up. I can't even get my own family to watch it. You know, like, I couldn't get my own family to watch it, Enlightened. You know what I? So, yeah. So I'm shocked by the amount of interest there is in the show.

And especially this season was even more than last season, which is like, so like, I'm like, can I write this kind of thing? Like, can I keep writing characters in situations that will get this kind of attention. And but I, I realize that like I can't look at it even in that in those terms. I just need to like not try to chase that. Like I just think that and I didn't do that this last time in my head. So it's just like I just feel like it's, it would just be, I just want to just feel fresh. I just want, you know, like, and that's really more what I want than it to be juicy or like, you know, have tons of people, you know, coming up with theories online or whatever.

Well, I'm curious, so you haven't, you know that you want to set this in Asia, you haven't gone on your location scouting trip quite yet, but I'm curious you mentioned this idea of Eastern religion is something you're interested in. I was wondering if you could expand on that, like, why that subject is of particular interest to you. Well, I just think we just did sex and I'm like thinking, oh, we're going to be in the East. I mean, then it could change, so I don't know. But like, it's just the idea, the idea like, it's like, well, that maybe, you know, I do think theme. are helpful for this show because what is it really? I mean, like a theme helps. Like, I don't know, organize the ideas and it just makes it from just being situational

stories of, you know, whatever. So like, you know, like having an organizing thing around a theme. So like, you know, in this, you know, so I just feels like maybe we do something that's a little more I don't know, celestial than the, you know, carnal desires, the horniness

of season two. My last question for you So we'll miss the horniness. But my last question for you is, is there a moment from this season when you were putting it all together? You're like, I'm not sure this is going to play exactly how I mean, you already talked about the shootout scene. But like a moment where you're like, I'm not sure this is going to play or land exactly how I wanted to. And then it landed perfectly and everyone got exactly from it what you wanted. And you were like, yes, I did it.

Is there a victory laugh moment for you this season? That's such a funny. You know, the truth was when we saw, like, the final episode that aired yesterday, I have this, you know, this incredibly talented editor, John Valerio, and he put the editor's cut of that episode together and showed it to me. And I was like, because at the time, you know, our schedule was so gnarly because we, we'd eaten into a month of our post because of COVID. And HBO really wanted us to make our date because we were after. after House of the Dragon and they didn't want nothing to be after House of the Dragon. So they didn't, so they were just like, just get out, just please, just get it out there. And so I was just, so, you know, there's no opportunity for any additional photography.

Like, I was just like, I was just like, if this isn't work, I don't. So like, when I saw it, I was like, this kind of work, like, all these like big swings that we took. I like, you know, with Tanya's storyline and the couples and the fight and it was like, there's a lot of, it's like, this is a much more operatic story. that I'm used to, I kind of live in a more kind of, you know, lo-fi, modulated, you know, space. And so, so when it was like, I was like, oh, my God, I was like, kind of riveted with the story. I was like, this is actually, we can show this to people. This will be okay.

Like, yeah. So, you know, that's not a specific moment, but like, I just, I was, I, you know, I, the fact that, like, some of these stories kind of landed, like, you know, like the moment in the end, like, well, here's one moment, but like, the moment with the couples at the very end and the dinner and Cameron makes the toast and he's like, and there was so many conversations like, why would they sit with them? Like the actors were like, confused. I was just like, I don't know. I just feel like we need to have one last thing with them, but they all have to sit there

together. And I was like watching it. And there's this moment where he's like, and Harper, I'm really, you know, this is, and Theo really helped like sell all of this. But like, he's like, and Harper is. really been great to get to know you properly. And, like, you see, you know, Aubrey's reaction to that. She's like, what the fuck?

And so, I don't know. Like, that was, like, one moment where it was like, we almost bailed on that doing that whole scene. But, like, I was, you know, like, I'm, I'm happy that it's there. Because it's, I mean, it begs belief, maybe. But it is still like, you know, it's a cinematic moment that is just fun. Excellent. Well, thank you so much for the chat.

I really appreciate it. Oh, cool. Thanks for talking about the show. Yeah, yeah. Of course. Have a great day. And then maybe they'll still be horniness next to this. Yeah, yeah. Hornyness plus death. What is death if not horniness?

Yeah. I don't know. Exactly. All right. Thanks. Bye. All right. Bye. All right.

So thanks so much to Mike White for that conversation. The Press East TV podcast feed will be filled with a number of other shows. We've got a bunch coming up. I know that in the new year we're going to start on The Last of Us. We might have, you might hear from me again for the end of the year. But if you don't, it's been a pleasure spending 20. 2022 with you all. Thanks as always to the incredible Sasha Asheel for editing this episode. And we'll talk to you soon. Bye.

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