The Prestige TV Podcast - 'The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 7 Deep Dive and Theories: Bad Con Artists

Episode Date: April 2, 2025

Jo and Rob discuss the very penultimate-y episode and the feeling of wanting more (3:03), the Duke T-shirt controversy (17:05), and an Emmy check-in (19:07), before Rockwell and Goggins’s disappointing con job sparks a list of their favorite con artist movies (31:27). Plus, judging the judgmental friend group (56:56), and will there be any consequences for Tim Ratliff (1:04:53)? Email us! [e-mail] Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of ‘The Prestige TV Podcast’ and so much more! Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney Producers: Kai Grady and Donnie Beacham Jr. Video Supervision: Chris Thomas Additional Production Support: Justin Sayles Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, welcome back to the prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson. I'm Rob Mahoney. Rob, here we are. Second to last episode of White Lotus. That is what we are here to discuss today. Before we get into that, a couple things. Programming stuff.

I want to say that our White Lotus finale episode, I guess we haven't discussed with the powers that be when it's going up, but we will be recording it Monday morning. Um, usually we don't record till like Tuesday, so you have time to get your takes off, your emails in. We're doing kind of right away after the finale on Monday morning. So if you, if you want to send us an email to where should they send it, Rob? Monkey shootout at gmail.com in particular this week, or next week we should say, because the monkeys will be shooting out or getting shot at. The monkeys will be involved. I feel very confident about this. Even though Michelle Montahan said on Jimmy Fallon that it was not the monkeys that did it. This is my first rodeo, Joe. You can't fool me, Michelle Monaghan.

Classic Mastricht. Okay. Classic Monaghan misdirect. Okay, so listen, that is what is happening with the White Lotus finale. As for the Pit, we are going to record an episode for each of the last two remaining episodes of the Pit This season. Rob and I are doing like a double record this week because I will be out next week. That's why we're recording Monday. Morning for White Lotus. That's why we're recording the Pit finale early. So we will not be able to get your pit finale reactions, I guess, before we record the finale. That's just something to think about. Well, all the more reason, again, to get in your emails as quickly as possible. An NBA team made a baffling decision recently, and one of their stakeholders described it as urgency is one of our core principles. I have no idea what that means. But here on the Prestige TV podcast, urgency is one of our core principles. You simply must email us your White Lotus theories as quickly after the finale as possible so that we may talk about them on our podcast.

And of course, get us all your pit thoughts at PrestigTV at Spotify.com as well. I got to say, the Who's Playing Pit Fest emails? They're popping off. Came fast and furious this week. So I'm excited to talk about that with you about the pit later this week. Also, in the ether, we haven't fully decided what we're doing in the following weeks after White Lotus is done, after the pit is done. In the ether are shows like your friends and neighbors on Apple, the last of us on HBO, which Mallory Rubin and I will certainly be covering in full on House of R. Definitely.

but may get some treatment or another from Rob and yours truly on this feed. And Pokerface, a show that started it all for us, Rob, has a season two. So these are things, I'm sure that Justin Sales, who may or may not be listening to this right now is like, why are you talking about what might be when we haven't discussed what we'll be? But I just wanted to let you know, we got some emails being like, are you covering poker face? Are you doing this? That's sort of what we're considering right now. Okay. White Lotus.

Rob. Joey. Mahoney. Did you like this episode of television? I liked it okay. Okay. I will say, I don't know what's going on with these shows that we've been covering, Joe, but the penultimate episodes have felt very penultimate lately.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell me how. I think just a lot of fits and starts of people moving around and then stopping in place and idling there in an emotional position until the rest of the plot threads can sort of catch up to our climactic moments, I would assume in the finale. So I think what I didn't like about this episode, in particular, and there are many great character moments.

It's always funny. It's always well acted. It's always well presented. Yeah. It left me with the feeling of, okay, well, the finale really has to hit. And that just means that this episode, to me, didn't really do its job. It's set the stage for the season, maybe, but as a self-contained episode of television, not my favorite thing. Are there any characters in particular for whom you're feeling that? I mean, Tim has been a wet noodle for weeks. Just like, can't sit in a chair, can't put two sentences together. I have.

I have no idea what the forward momentum of his plot is supposed to be other than increasingly elaborate suicidal ideation. He's kind of been in one place. Guy Talk and Mook have been stationary for a long time. And in this episode, have a version of a conversation they basically had like four episodes ago. So I don't really know what's going on with them. Belinda at least gets a movement on her plot line. We get the official kind of offer from Greg Garius to what he can give her, which is $100,000. I want to get into the negotiation tactics that you and Mallory and Bill talked about on the Sunday pod as far as how much you should be asking for in these circumstances.

But that's at least some plot movement in what otherwise I would say has been a pretty stale part of the show. I would also say I agree with a lot of, well, I have some MOOC and Guy Talk asterisk to your take there. But I will say that for me, it's Rick. for me, even though this is like supposed to be sort of the big Rick climax to the buildup, I feel to use White Lotus, like largely unsatisfied by what I have been presented with here. Well, that's almost a totally different category because this is a Rick episode. I would say this is a Rick episode and this is a fancies episode, first and foremost. Those are the sort of two driving plot lines.

Rick gets a lot to theoretically do. He gets his own sort of big confrontation monologue moment. and I can't say that I am feeling a lot coming out of it. I can't see that I'm feeling that sort of resolve and closure that you're describing. Okay. And so to your point that you started with, which is they really have to crush in the finale, I'm feeling really unsatisfied with Rick. There is a possibility that something happens in the finale where I'm like,

wow, this feels great. Right. You know, I was wrong to judge it at seven. I should have waited for eight to sort of see where it was all going. I want to go back to something that you mentioned. I mean, let's talk about Belinda. Why not? This was an episode of a lot of transactional conversations, right? We're trading. We're Greg Gary, Belinda, talk about money. We're Alexi and Lori talking about money. Yeah, they sure are. We're talking about exchange of knowledge if we're Chelsea and Saxon. There's a lot of sort of, and this always happens towards the end of a White Lotus episode is.

someone asking for money or someone trying to buy something. This is a very common, this is what it's all about, sort of White Lotus thing. We got a really interesting email from our listener, Jessica. I've said this before, but something that I love about doing this podcast with you, Rob, is the number of, like, unexpected experts that will weigh in, right? It's amazing. Jessica is a trained Muay Thai fighter. Let's fucking go.

First of all. Great. Incredible. Fantastic. So she wrote, I just heard a different podcast reference the beginning scenes in the Muay Thai fight as a prayer. It's called a Y Crew Rem Moy. It is usually shortened to Y Crew. It serves to pay respect to your teacher slash coach. Can be a protecting measure. Can be used to intimidate your opponent and also helps prepare the body for the fight. It's usually done after you walk the ring counterclockwise to seal the ring. It's interesting to intercut that with the scenes of people squaring up with their own personal opponents because they're doing all of those things. things, but paying respect. So this idea of sort of these confrontations coming to a head, what do I want from you? What does Greg Gary want from Belinda to pay her off and shut her up? What does he want from Saxon? A kinky little sex arrangement, you know. Maybe. I don't know how to read that one, admittedly.

I will say that John Grice on the official podcast says that he does believe that that is Great Gary's kink. So that is true. I believe that the kink is real. But the motivations for prompting the kink and the ask, to me felt more like, I need to give Chloe something to do so I can take care of this Belinda business and so we can have a pretense for having this party that has not let me cover up a murder. Okay. I don't mind that. Yeah, I want to get back to that.

Okay, let's talk about, first of all, anything, any thoughts about Jessica, our trade fighter at her email? And then secondly, oh, what do you want to say about the Belinda negotiating dollar price tag? conversation that Bill and Mallory and I had. I do love the context of that sort of introduction to the moiety fight, which is an interstitial like through line through at least the first half of the episode. And I think it's sort of underlining this confrontation we have, not just in terms of all these transactions and people trying to get people on their side, bribe them,

enlighten them, et cetera. But there's like very human paradox that is at this season of White Lotus and this episode in particular of spirituality and violence. And the way that they interact and the way that they coexist, including in setting the stage for a fight like this. There's a lot of characters who are trying to figure out where they stand and what violent acts they're willing to participate in or not, or in some ways, in acting their own kinds of violence. But I think for where we are right now, I like that sort of stage setting finale-wise. The transactional nature of this episode, I find a little less interesting.

I find those elements to be a little more, okay, let me give you this bit of exposition so than we know what's happening in the finale so that we kind of moved the links of the chain of the plot along a little bit. And no more am I disappointed in that than Zion's arrival on the show, who's a character we open the show with him, right? Like this idea of him in peril,

him trying to navigate this crazy situation with all this gunfire, crawling through the water. It's like a really evocative thing. He shows up on the show, and his main role it feels like is to be one, a character that we plot,

possibly believe actually has Belinda's best interest at heart. Okay. And then also just to kind of like push back on her paranoias and fears. Like he's basically like a wall that she's arguing with versus an actual character. It's not paranoia if it's real. Less paranoia. But like I think she has very well-founded fears. Yeah. And she's trying to navigate them. And he's a counterpoint for a lot of that fear and trying to say actually let me meet your fear with a certain kind of practicality. Like if you don't go to this dinner party, he's just going to keep trying to approach you. If you don't take this money, he's just going to come after you with violence. And say, I understand the need for that kind of theoretical framework. But to get it from a character, we don't know and don't have any

relationship to and have barely seen on screen and took like five episodes to show up, that feels like a bit of a missed opportunity. I think you want to say about Belinda negotiating? Mallory's ambitious. What did she say, Cool Mill? I think her opening was don't settle for anything less than a million dollars, which sounds to me in this situation. And look, I would not prop myself up as a successful negotiator. That sounds like a good way to get killed, in my opinion. What do you think about what Bill? I think Bill and I were saying like 500, 500,000.

See, this is where I'm especially not a good negotiator. I try to wiggle up from 100 a little bit, but I don't even know if I'd make it to five if I'm being honest with you. All right. On the official podcast, they made the great point where they're like, why not just take that money, however much is offering, and then turn him over anyway. Like, how the money is... Then he's just going to say that he gave you the money, and then you are accessory to murder. I guess it depends how the money is traced to you, I suppose.

That's true. Fair enough. Okay. We need a duffel bag. We do earn an offshore account or something. This episode is brought to you by Prime. Obsession is in session. And this summer, Prime Originals have everything you want.

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market peach, apricot, rose, Italian soda. Perfect for a picnic or brunch, as is their trending mango, Yuzu, chantilly cake. But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sale signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. In addition to this transactional stuff, wrapped up in the transactional confrontational,

penultimate episode, there's a lot of tests for characters. Rick is tested on whether or not he's going to do a murder. Frank is tested on his sobriety. Chelsea is tested on whether or not she's going to fuck a Schwarzenegger. There's just a lot of tests being put forward. and Piper is tested about whether or not she can spend the night one single solitary night in the monastery.

With a leaky faucet, can you imagine? A drip? Rob, you were the one who was worried about a sort of sibling sexual assignation at the monastery. How did you feel when Piper sat down in Lachlan's bed in her nighty? I was very scared. Shirtless Lachlan is an intimidating thing at this point in the season. very relieved that the story did not exactly turn that way. And I think it did turn in a way that I do find interesting,

this idea of Piper as a figure who thought she wanted one thing and is forced to confront the fact that if she actually wanted to go to the monastery for the purposes of self-improvement, she would probably have no reason to object to Lachlan also wanting to do the same thing. And in fact, might even be supportive of it because it would be on the same grounds that are leading her there. The fact that she pushes back and is such like a strong, like visceral reaction to the idea of her brother stealing her thing, I think tells us a lot.

I think we'll see if it tells Piper a lot about herself. That's the big question mark for me. I think it's interesting on this sort of like, I think that's a great take. I think what you're saying and what Mallory's saying makes a lot of sense to me. I was like confused and I was watching it, but now I think I'm much clearer on it. And I think that on the transactional front, have you clicked into Max.com, HBO max.com, whatever the URL is for. I've been involved, yeah. Have you gotten the White Lotus pop-up that they're currently serving? No, what are they serving up? Okay, welcome to Zaz Loves America, where, you know, of course, we hear on the prestige

are supporting white lotus brand as a coffee mate. And also, there's a pop-up ad that says, the White Lotus, who will be forever changed, is a pop-up pole. The White Lotus, who will be forever changed. changed by their unhinged Thailand trip. Your prediction will inspire your next watch and don't miss the season finale, blah, blah. So you can pick the Ratlifts. Yeah.

Rick and Chelsea, Jack, Lori, and Kate, or Belinda and Zion. You've got four picks here, right? Four groups. Can I add a fifth one to the poll? Sure. Jason Isaacs himself, who in interviews has been talking about how the experience of making the show was a harrowing interpersonal experience in which there was apparently much drama. And I would love to hear about it, but I suspect we will not.

They're really, I mean, I've heard that from a lot of people that there was like a ton of conflict and drama. And then yet also, they're all posting these very like chummy photos on their Instagram from behind the scenes. So his, his posting style of as an actual dad of these people is just delightful. But that's just, I really enjoyed it. Being the Jason Isaac's, like, See, I haven't been up on this. I haven't been up on his social media presence. He and Tom Felton, who played Draco Malfoy, like call each other. dad and son and have done since they made Harry Potter and they're just like constantly on each other's Instagram just being fucking adorable. Just so sweet for a bunch of murderous fascists,

isn't it nice? Okay. So to go back to this pop up, if you click on any of these options, Max will then tell you what you should watch based on what you click, what you should watch next. Oh, okay. I like this. Based on what you clicked. Yeah. So if you click on Rick and Chelsea, which is of course my first click, they're like, we hear you like, Walt and Guggins, have you tried righteous gemstones. Yes. You click on the rat lifts. They're like Patrick Schwarzenegger,

rich family Carolinian murder, the staircase. We think you'll enjoy it. Yep. Belinda and Zion, the connection is very loose. But they're basically like, hey, Mike White made another show for us.

It's called Enlightened. We think you might like it. So that's the Belinda and Zion option. You know what that makes me think is that maybe Belinda will not take the money. Like, enlightened a show among other things about like a kind of whistleblowing and a kind of like pursuit of a sort of justice within the context of also channeling your own self-improvement. Maybe that is the Bolinda story. I love this. Rob is finding spoilers inside of a, inside of SpahnCon

inside of AegeomX. Last one at least, and this just really crack me up. Jacqueline, Lori, and Kate, the fancies. If you click on that, the pop-up says, we hear you like older fashionable women, would you like to watch and just like that, the Sex and the City sequel series? You couldn't even point him to the original? It's got to be the new content.

I mean, the ladies are just not old enough in the original, I guess. Anyway, so that is, that is, sorry, I guess I'm doing HBO's advertising work for them, but I just thought that was really funny. Okay. Yesterday, our colleague Jomi,

filled me in on the Duke shirt, controversy. Oh, yeah. Rob, do you want to let listeners at home who were as shelters as I was from this know what the Duke shirt controversy is around White Lotus? Let's just say an institution as Pearl Clutchy as Duke does not appreciate when you put someone on screen holding a gun to their head wearing a very prominently featured Duke T-shirt and have issued a sternly worded statement, how they condemn the images on the show, how they are so serious about, you know, the prevention of self-harm in the world that their

brain could not possibly be associated with such a thing. It's just a preposterous situation all around, Joe, for a guy wearing a t-shirt of his alma mater. And they're also, I mean, you know, they're admonishing the show, but also engaging directly in what we were talking about earlier in terms of like this being a March Madness meme. Oh, yeah. They're like, we understand that March Madness can get competitive, but come on, guys. Don't use this meme. Okay. So I bring that up because we had an email from our listener, Robert, who said, said, and then I had to go back and rewatch the scene, do you think they edited the Duke shirt out of the dream sequence in episode seven? I noticed Tim had a white shirt and not his Duke shirt on like in episode six. So if you go back to the end of episode seven, when Tim is once more in his family annihilator era, he's wearing the Duke shirt as he's thinking about it. But when we get to the part where he actually has the gun, he is wearing this sort of like white, almost like pinkish, like a white washed with some reds, pinkish white. undershirt. And I was looking at, I was like, could they have gone in and sort of digitally altered?

And I'm like, easily they could have. Yeah, possible for sure. We've never seen this t-shirt on him as far as I can tell. So just something to think about in our in our creepy little CGI-A-I-I era, what you can change with a click of a mouse. They can take that scene from us, Joe, but they can't take the memes. No. They'll have to rip them out of our cold dead keyboarding hands. And they shall not have it. Okay. Last but at least, sort of before we get into the main, Just one last sort of email roundup thing. I want to say that our listener, Morgan, which is my sister's name, but no relation,

wrote in an interesting sort of Emmy check-in, which I know is not like necessarily why people listen to this podcast, but we have been talking about it a lot throughout the season of sort of the Emmy likelihood of various actors. And I think we've sort of just been using it as a way of, like, to say, whose performance are we enjoying? Yeah. What character do we think is being, you know, given the most centralized treatment? I think also, too, not enjoying, but enjoying, for sure, but in addition to that, whose performance is going to kind of stand the test of time as far as what we remember from this season, who feels like a signature feature of season three of

White Lotus? And I think it's interesting to think about because like given that I just went through this sort of like HBO Max pop-up ad thing, the way that White Lotus hits those double quadrants of like sort of shamelessly merchandised this season and also clear Emmy Fodder is one of its geniuses. I don't think there's another show out there that hits those two beats as well as it does. But Morgan pointed out that actually in the past, we were talking about lead versus supporting. Morgan pointed out that White Lotus actors all go into the supporting category since this is an ensemble cast. So in the past, you know, Jennifer Coolidge won both of her Emmys in the supporting category. Murray Bartlett won his in the supporting category.

Nobody won for season two in the male supporting category because Matthew McFadion won for succession, et cetera. Yeah. And White Lotus does usually apply as a drama, correct? Yes. Yeah. It's a drama. You could see it and that makes it maybe harder for the Parker Posey's of this cast to like really filter through who are, I would say mostly a comedic performance. I mean, you would think that, but Jennifer Coolidge is like, that's a great point. You know, uncut comedy. So I think that and then the other element is we've been talking about whether or not Sam Rockwell belongs in the guest category of the supporting category. And I was sort of making those he should be a guest. guest actor, based on the fact that I did not think that Frank was going to linger as long as he has, I guess. But if he shows up even for a second in the finale, he will be over the threshold for guest actor and would have to show up in the supporting category. So this is, if you're

in 50% of the episodes of the season, you have to, you don't qualify for guest actor. So Morgan says, based on this, my predictions for nominations would be Isaacs, Gagnes, Rockwell, and possibly Schwartzenegger and male supporting. Posey, Wood, Rothwell, and potentially all three of the fancies in supporting female. And White Lotus has run the board on this before, so it wouldn't be the first time. And she said, as good as Rockwell has been, it seems a little unfair if he won over any of the core cast members. So I guess of all of those options, if you, Rob Mahoney, without having seen the benefit of seeing the finale, were playing the role of the TV Academy.

Oh, boy. Who do you give the Emmy to? in supporting. I feel most compelled by the fancies. Okay. I think those are great performances. I think they're pretty well-realized and sometimes infuriating characters.

The trick with that might be how do you separate them? And do they sort of split the vote not only to kind of get on the ballot in the first place, but say if two of the three are on, like, as finalists for supporting actress, like, who do you actually pick between them? I think that would be excruciatingly hard and maybe would prevent them from actually winning. But if I were to pick one sort of standout part of the show, to me, it's still that. Excellent. How are you feeling about it, though, Joe? Like, who would you say is, would you put forward to the academy? I've been saying Isaacs all season, but to your point, I think

I've finally reached my threshold of he's been idling in the same gear for too many episodes. Like, I almost wonder if it would have been worth having Tim Ratliff in King of the Castle mode for two, three episodes that being, you know, like, you know, so that we then, in this dissent, we're not lingering as long in this one sort of dissent mode. If we, and we also have a better sense of what we

lost of him as, though we understand, because he's an archetype. We understand who that person is. So I'm tempted to go Schwarzenegger, which like I just really never thought I would be here. But I really want it to be someone like Goggins, but this is just not he's not Gogginsing as hard as he

can unless he does. so in the finale. On the, on the, you saying you're most, most sort of enchanted by the three fancies, by the complicated nature of those characters. Yes. I wanted to pose a question that we got from our listener, Joanna, no relation to me. Um, so you keep saying that. It just makes me more and more suspicious. The nepotism allegations and now the self-question submitting allegations are going to come in stronger than ever. It's not me. But I'm just going to sum up Joanna's email when she basically said, can Chelsea and Mook beat the manic pixie dream girl allegations? Yeah.

This is how I'm summing this up. Okay. See, this is a question from Joanna to Joanna because we need to talk about Chelsea and Rick and we need to have an honest dialogue about the nature of their relationship. I really understand this. I had a conversation with a friend of mine this morning because obviously, like, Mallory and I were disagreeing about this on Sunday. and I read this email where Joanna laid out the ways in which both Chelsea and Mook, I would say in this episode, Mook less so, because Mook has like ambitions and desires that are, she might be looking for a dude to sort of like help her on her way there.

Yes. But it's not about, she's not there to make Guy Talk's life. No. Guy Talk, in fact, might be bending himself or breaking his own personal. beliefs to, you know, service her ambition to service her wants and desires. I think that's an underdeveloped character in MOOC, but I also think Guy Talk is a pretty underdeveloped character overall. It's just that she doesn't have a lot going for her other than, as you say, expressing what she wants, which is not personality-wise guy talk.

She wants, in a sort of little mermaid sense more, right? Like, sort of thing. Bits and Bob's. Who's this and what's a color? Thank you. Who's this is what's, it's galore? I You know, I'm sorry. My apologies to Ariel down there. Okay. She accepts your apology. So Chelsea, however, this is the allegation from the Joanna who is not me, which is that every conversation we've had with Chelsea, almost every conversation, has been about Rick, who's like her child, who she just wants to help. It's not good, Joe. It's not what you want to hear. All this sort of stuff. And Mallory on Sunday was like, what the fuck are we doing here, essentially. and I was trying to talk to someone about this morning about

this is something I would so usually agree with Mallee agree with this listener Joanna about who is not me all this or stuff and I'm like why am I rooting for Rick and Chelsea and my friend her summation was you're just Goggins like you you can't help but root for Walton Goggins you are conditioned to do so this comes goes back to me rooting for like Boyd and Ava even though I shouldn't be you know like I just

I just I, it's in my bones to root for Walt and Goggins. And so I'm rooting for Rick and Chelsea, even though, yeah, I mean, this idea that Chelsea has no backstory, Mook and Chelsea have no backstory. That is largely true. Chelsea says stuff like horrible things have happened to me. You don't see me complaining about it. I think she said that in episode five. I would like to know what those things are. What is Chelsea's story? Like she talks about meeting Rick and getting his whole life story, but what's the deal with Chelsea? Why is she the way she is? I do like that the point that our listener was making inside of this email, this Manipixie Dreamgirl email, was just sort of like, if Rick's story goes away, Chelsea goes away, that's not true because she's also in Saxon story,

but she's in Saxon story. She sure is. Who would be there to pan back and forth between Chloe and Saxon as they talk about this elaborate sexual encounter that they're trying to arrange? If you're not watching this on video, you really miss Rob's excellent Amy Lou Wood impression of her sort of like wide eyes. But Chelsea, I would argue, is even more in the Mani Pixie Dream Girl role with Saxon where she's like, here's some books. Yeah. You know, like educate yourself. Be free. Do you want to listen to the shins?

Here, take my headphones. Yeah, exactly. Do you want to talk all night and then drive and meet each other and watch the sunrise? Like, so, Rob, what do you got to say about? Chelsea, Mook, Madi Picks a Dream Girl, any of this. I would see, for one, everything that we're saying about why Rick is a character and his place in the relationship with Chelsea doesn't work for us, except for Walton Goggins, may be an argument for what we were just talking about in terms of Gagins selling this

thing above and beyond what's on the page. I don't think Rick is a particularly well-realized character to this point of the story. And we're going to get into more of kind of the culmination, at least what feels like the culmination of his story to this point. But Gagins does sell it, and he is likable. and he is someone who we want to see and kind of want to spend time with, even when he's a bit of a sourpuss as far as this character goes, we have to give that to him as far as that piece of this puzzle.

I want to push back a little bit on the idea of the backstory element with characters like Chelsea and Mook because I agree. Look, I would love to know what Chelsea's life is like. I think that would be a great bit of dialogue. I think that would be some great scenes, whatever you want to do with it. But this idea that you need backstory to build character, I just don't agree with fundamentally. And so this, like, I think you can very easily separate the lore of who we know these people to be with what makes them interesting and evocative on screen and kind of like the personality and the agency that they show in their actions.

And Chelsea, to me, her problem is less that we don't know her backstory and more that she's literally waiting for Rick to show up and calling him at every opportunity. And is like, is heartbroken by overall the fact that he won't return her messages and that he won't kind of meet her halfway and that her acknowledging this sort of like pain and hope. dynamic between them, but not acknowledging that that's a problem. Makes me really feel for that character, but it doesn't give that character a ton to do in the meantime. I would love an even stronger pushback from Chloe being like, what are we doing here? Chelsea, why are you doing this? Yeah, that's a great point.

You don't need to have a monologue about, you know, your origins and stuff like that to be a compelling character who wants more. I would just love to hear what Chelsea talks about astrology but in the context of Rick or Chelsea talks about this not in the traveling but in the context of Rick so like what is

what is Chelsea outside of that context would have been a really fun thing to explore but we'll only have one more episode well I mean as far as this season dealing with identity though that is a salient point right the fact that Chelsea only really identifies herself through Rick and who she is to him and that's I understand from a screenwriting

like 10,000 foot, like this is a female character on television perspective problem. Yeah. But also I think is showing what that character thinks of herself. And apparently it's quite little as far as her as a self-determined individual person. I hope that's true. I hope that that's something that. But like it doesn't seem to me like the show is looking at Chelsea like through the lens of critique, the way it's looking at someone like Saxon who says to his dad, I'm nothing

if I'm not like your son. Everything I am is wrapped up in you. like the show is clearly showing us that being like, ugh, don't do that. With Chelsea, like, I don't know that the show is seeing this as a toxic dynamic in any sort of way. But, I mean, we'll see what happens in the finale. I think what gives me hope on that is the stuff like her calling Rick, her child.

And I think overall her talking about, like, he's just so sad and I need to make him better. Like, that feels self-aware to a point where I really do hope that we get some follow up on that. We shall see. I have not seen the finale, so I don't know. We'll all be watching it together live on Sunday. Snoring, gasping during sleep, feeling fatigue, ask your doctor about Zepbound, terseptitide. The first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and adults with obesity. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and obesity to improve their OSA.

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Your car, your timeline, your terms. Visit Carvana.com to sell your car today. Carvana. Pick up fees may apply. Jim Hollinger. Let's talk about the goggins of it all. Yeah. So we meet Scott Glenn.

As Jim Hollinger, Scott Glenn, and actor we love, we spend in a million things, the leftovers, urban cowboy, etc., etc. Jim Hollinger is old and frail. That's part of this. and there is a compelling story to be told of this sort of like boogeyman you've built up in your head and you meet him, he's just like an old frail dude and you're like, oh no, I let this figure in my head dictate my actions for so long

and he's just an old dude like you're nothing, you're nobody, what the fuck? So that could be satisfying. There is just some sort of miss for me in this confrontation. And in terms of, again, they were talking about this in the official podcast, I thought this was an interesting take. If this is a test for Rick, if this is a, can you find the path inside of yourself

that does not involve you pulling the trigger on this guy? Can you free yourself from your identity of a wronged son who needs vengeance? Yes. Can you choose a life of peace and whatever and Chelsea, etc., etc.? Can you do that?

Then wouldn't it be more compelling if Jim Hollinger were actually a juicier? foe inside of that scene if there were more of a temptation you know whereas just sort of like Jim Holland is like go off not much of a foe yeah yeah give us nothing

which is what again and that's not a Scott Glenn critique because that's a great actor who we've liked in everything from bad monkey and beyond but like it's given nothing in this he's giving plus one is what's giving

like he shows up he sits there he has the drink he I guess you know cordons off with Rick here to have this conversation to ostensibly clear off for Cetala to continue talking to a very fraudulent director who's, I would say, work in the scene is questionable to say the least. But yeah, he doesn't have a lot to do. He doesn't have a lot to offer. And again, it's like, I understand from a storytelling perspective, the merits of exactly what you laid out, Joe, like the inherent way that we build up things that let us down in terms of the importance that they play in our life. And it makes sense that Rick would fall into that moment.

But when you put it on screen, that is going to feel like anticlimax because it is anti-climax. And so you have to find some other way to make it meaningful or some other way to make it resonant. And that's where I felt like this fell short. If we got the confrontation between Rick and Hollinger in the office and it goes exactly the way it does, but the follow-up on it was a little bit different. And some of the subsequent conversations between, you know, like Rockwell and Goggins, for example, play out a little differently. I think I could be sold on it.

I think there's room there to kind of flesh out what that means other than sort of like shrug. I guess I got closure. Let's go to the strip club. Yeah. And maybe like an ambiguous smile. I just, I needed a little more than that. Again, this is why I'm waiting for the finale. Like it's possible that there's something in the finale that will make it all feel like a resolution that makes sense to me.

What do you make of Mallory's question of whether or not this is going to follow Rick back to the White Lotus? Maybe he goes back to the White Lotus to meet up with Chelsea or the Hollinger. bodyguard's going to follow him there, you know, what's what's the consequences? Or are we done with that storyline? He did it. He's done. You know, they left the house. They didn't really like hurt. They tipped over his chair. He's fine. Like, you know, I mean, he's frail. He just got out of the hospital. So maybe he's not like full in time. But like, but it was a very like juvenile response. I don't even know what to do in this situation. I'm just going to push over your chair. Yeah. Do you think we see more of this in the finale? I'm not usually this kind of person,

but I think we kind of have to. Yeah. Like the logical jump of you just had this whole like con executed against you for purposes that you don't fully understand. And this guy showed up and held a gun to your head. And you're just not going to follow up on that at all. And I say that not just in terms of following Rick back to the White Lotus and getting Chelsea involved and all those things. But they're just hanging out on the town in Bangkok after like speeding away by boat as quickly as they possibly could. I think you've got to get out of town.

I think you got to call Chelsea, say, pack the bags. Yeah, we're out. Meet me in Bangkok. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah, bring her to Bangkok. That works too, but you got to get out of the White Lotus. Don't linger at the resort where you've, like, had a confrontation with the owner. I'm like really, okay.

So this goes back to another main issue I have. And I did like a lot of this episode. But here's my main disappointment. As you know, I love a con. I love a heist and I love a con. Yeah. Those are the two things. When everyone,

ever someone asks me about you, Joe, I say heist and cons. That's her area. It could be a blend of the two, whatever you prefer. But the promise of Walton Goggins and Sam Rockwell as con artists

in a white guy con artist in Bangkok is so delicious to me to watch this con be executed so shocking. was genuinely crushing to me. Is it funny to a certain degree, but I actually think there's a better chance for comedy in a more competently done con than what we saw.

So something that I texted you about this morning earlier was like, hey, can you be ready to talk about sort of your favorite con movies? Are you a con movie aficionado? What do you enjoy about them, et cetera? So what do you want, where do you want to start Rob Honey and talking about con stories on film that you've enjoyed in the past? I'm going to start obvious. Yeah. And we're just going to get it out of the way.

Yeah. Vertigo. Amazing con story. Great one. Has to be represented. I would say a non-traditional con story overall in that you may not even see it coming. And it's so good I am a little reluctant to spoil a 70-year-old movie. That's how good vertigo is.

not just one of the best con movies but I think does something that con movies rarely do which is give you the okay so what happens next like after the big reveal what happens to the core characters what psychological state does it leave them in it's not just a little coda where you see kind of the next six months of their lives or a little flash forward I would say the meat and ultimately what's so twisted

and fucked up about vertigo is so much of what happens next and that's a part of that kind of story that I love seeing on screen it's an excellent truly excellent pick And I think that, like, one of the joys of a con movie is when the con artist is conning themselves. Like, when they, when they are fooling themselves about something. And when we, the audience, are being conned by what we're watching, when we are, when there's... I thought that way with disclaimers sometimes. I thought that way with disclaimers sometimes.

The Sting. Yeah. Newman and Redford. Classic. But that's the sort of like CAD dynamic that I think we're hoping for from something like this White Lotus pairing and just did not quite get there. We love a CAD. The thing about like Newman and Red, like the thing about Rockwell and Goggins is like, yeah, this is a pairing that I would happily see across many different properties. They have just that kind of vibe that works so well together.

They're actual lifelong friends. So the same way in which we would happily see Newman and Redford in a number of stories together. I would happily see Goggins and Rockwell. I just need them to be more competent at their next criminal enterprise. Not only are they lifelong friends, Joe. Someone emailed us earlier this season with a screenshot from the wonderful Walton Goggins Architectural Digest video where he takes you through his carefully constructed home. Yeah.

Well, I guess not carefully constructed because it's like a vintage property, including like a little like speakeasy room, basically, in which he asks all his friends to sign it and there's a screenshot of Sam Brockwell's signature in the speakeasy room. So, I mean, clearly old pals. Clearly not, this is not the first time that they've been drinking buddies together. What do you want to say next?

Which other con movie? This is low-hanging fruit, but catch me if you can, I think has to be represented in this conversation. I have seen it more times than I could actually count. It is among my most, like, YouTube revisited movies. In particular, the scene in which Leo, dupes his way out of a room with Tom Hanks by like throwing his wallet, you know, caught in the act

red-handed and finds a way out of the room back to the car, manipulating a blind man in the process, but who's counting? I just think Leo is a perfect con man in many different movies, many different roles. Hanks, though, is just a perfect mark. And in particular in that movie, the idea that he's, I would say, like, more relentless than he is clever. He just, like, wants to keep running into the wall over and over. And every time he does, he's a little bit smarter and a little bit more plugged in on what's happening. But ultimately, you need someone who's not so smart, they're going to solve the mystery in 30 minutes,

but is so believable and I think ultimately so likable that you want to see them ultimately get through it. And so I just love that pairing. Cash if you can is one of my favorite movies of all time. I think it might be my... It's like my second favorite Spielberg movie, but it's like right up there. That's amazing.

I mean, it's an incredible movie. And I think what I love most about the con aspect of that is like how much Frank Abagnale Jr. is played by Leonardo DiCaprio, how much his own personal psychology, emotional damage, like all this sort of stuff is wrapped in like, why does the con artist

con is a chief idea there? Tom Hanks is Frank Hanready, who is this America's dad figure sort of like chasing down this wayward boy. One of my favorite moments. I mean, you were forging documents where getting girls to play

Pan Am, you know, flood attendants to sort of make our work through the airport. The arts and crafts, and catch me if you can are incredible. My favorite, though, is the revelation when Handratty's at the diner and his waiters like, like, oh, those are the names of the Flash. That's Barry Allen. That's the Flash. And he's like, ah, he's giving me comic book names. What the hell?

So, yeah, great one. I will say, that was on my list. I will say also, the early 2000s, great time for Carnos movies. Sam Rockwell, Nicholas Cage, Alison Lohman, Matchstick Men. Matchstick Men, a movie about con artists in which the con artists are, you know, again, I don't want to like ruin all the twists in terms of con artists movies, but are being conned. Where once again, the emotional vulnerability of a con artist is wrapped up in why he and the audience are sucked into a story that they're being sold inside of that movie. I love that movie Matchstick Men.

So match the command is wonderful. And yeah, I think again, what's so painful about the Rockwell Gagin's pairing is we've seen Rockwell do it. We've seen Gagins do it. We know the juice that they have in these exact sorts of scenarios. And these dudes can't even IMD be a single thing. There's bumbling their way. Not even leading the meeting, not even guiding the conversation. Just sort of like a long for the ride. One pre-conversation about what the plan was. Not a single one. This guy doesn't even know what movies he directed. That is. a problem. That was the only part that, like, but the fake movie titles that he came up with were delightful. Oh, they're great. That was great, but the rest is just a mess. The jump from the executor

to the notary, I just want to say, is a truly inspired bit of wordplay, and I appreciate it. Yeah, the executor, the executor, and the notary. Okay, any other con movies you want to shout out? One that we have a mutual admiration for, Joe. And that's 2008, the Brothers

Bloom. It's my number one. My number one as well. I think straight up just one of my favorite movies of the 2000s as a decade. Correct. A gorgeous, charming movie. It does two things that we've already kind of circled around one of them and I really love about con movies. One is you got to create the spiral of cons that is so dense and so expansive that we have no idea where the con ends and where the truth begins. And the way you do that is with what you were talking about in Matchstick Man where it's like you're putting con man against con man. And in this, this case brother against brother it's like who would possibly know better to see through all the bullshit than the person who knows you maybe most intimately in the world knows all your tricks

and i think paying it off as emotionally as the brothers bloom does is really where it shines and really what makes that movie better than the sum of its parts like it is not just a con movie but it is a fucking great con movie yeah Ryan Johnson this is Adrian Brody Mark ruffalo Rachel Weiss and Rinko Kikuchi and uh a criminally underwatched movie yes um And it starts with, like Mark Ruffalo says a couple times, the day I con you is the day I die is like one of my favorite lines from that movie. But also it starts with this opening monologue, a rhyming opening prolog. Look, it was 2008.

This is a movie that came out of 2008. There are a lot of vests involved. Yes. It does. It can get quite twee at times. It is not untwee. No, certainly not. But Ricky Jay's great opening, rhyming monologue that he gives,

where he says, as far as Conman stories go, I think I've heard them all of grifters, ropers, pharaoh fixers, tails drawn long and tall. But if one bears a bookmark in the Confidence Man's tome, it would be that of Penelope and the brothers, Blum, which doesn't rhyme with tome. But that's okay. Blom. Grifters, ropers, pharaoh fixers. We also, I just really quickly shout out

and this has gone along longer than I should have let it but this is just like genuinely one of my favorite things to talk about. Disagree. Let's do another 40 on the Brothers Blum. We haven't even talked about Rachel Weiss yet. Come on. She's skateboarded guys. She makes pinhole cameras. She's wonderful.

The Grifters, obviously, a classic. And then the thing that started my love story with con movies, one of my favorite movies for my childhood, Dirty Rotten Scoundrels with Michael Kane, Steve Martin, Glenn Headley. Just great. shit. And again, there's just like always a turn inside of con movie where there's just like another con waiting for you around the corner. I know this is not a con show. I'm just saying the opportunity was there and they just whiffed on it. Well, what if the ultimate conjo is the

con we perform on ourselves? The way in which we trick ourselves into believing we are something other than what we are. It's true. A question of a pal of mine asked me this morning is if I thought Frank's easy tumble from sobriety after this long monologue that we got in a previous episode, the fucking his way through Thailand

and then turning to Buddhism and sobriety and what that brought to him. She was asking me if I thought that was a commentary on the fragility of white Buddhism, like tourist Buddhism, like the fact that Frank was just so easily ready like at the first sight of trouble just ready to throw that out the window.

I'm a little nervous in one meeting and now I need a whiskey. And then it's just like an orgiastic sort of descent into madness. Any, you know, I talked a little bit on Sunday's episode about this quote from Alan Watts that Rick gives to Jim when he talks about, you know, knowing when to stop. And Alan Watts is this icon of white Buddhism in the San Francisco Bay Area and in the world of white Buddhism in general. Any thoughts about like Frank in that vein or anything that they're trying to say about this idea of in contrast to this monk who gives us, drops even more sort of wisdom on us in this episode.

Piper as sort of white tourist, a Buddhist, like any of that inside of this season or this episode. I will first say invoking knowing when to stop in a show that has maybe gone on an episode or too long is a little rich. Fair. That said, yeah, I do think it is a direct call-out of that sort of like tourist spirituality. And I would say even more broadly than that, even take out, you know, the white or the American or the tourist element of that. Just sort of the fragility of this path to enlightenment overall, which is even if you enter into it with the best or most desperate of intentions, you are actually motivated by self-improvement. You are actually trying to get into, you know, connection with a higher power, connection with a broader humaneity. connection with whatever it is that is binding us all.

Sometimes it is that fragile. And I think as we're kind of charting the courses of who is making dramatic progress and character over the course of like four days at a luxury resort, like Saxon, case and point, this is a long, long, long road, my friend. And a couple of books is a good starting point, a little flirtatious meditation. You do you. Ultimately, like this is a hard, hard path to walk. And one that requires an incredible amount of like monastic,

responsibility and dedication. And so, yeah, I think anyone could fall off of that path. Anyone could fall out of that, that particular rhythm of life. But as we're trying to figure out who makes it out of this season of White Lotus in any way improved, I think the answer is any of them could fall off

at any conceivable moment. What do you make of Rick's smile at the end of this episode? What's your read on it? I don't know. And I'm more confused after reading what Walton Goggins thought of it. tell me. So he did an interview with the Hollywood reporter. We was talking about that scene and

kind of the arc overall for Rick this season in a way that frankly makes me think that we have seen the bulk of what Rick is going to go through, the fact that this interview is coming out. This is his quote. It took me six months and seven hours of this experience to smile, to really smile. It's not joy, but there's contentment or peace for a moment. I get that he's talking about the production of the show, right? And this is a character who has been quite dour. He talked about how hard it was for him as an actor. He would just like separate himself from the cast and go just like brood and smoke and stuff like that. Like, well, actually, I don't know if he smokes.

I think he does. Anyway, brood and just sort of stare off on the distance and not talk to anyone. So, yeah. This is a man as an actor who is the life of the party and has the biggest toothiest grin in the world. And to deprive us of that is a crime in and of itself. But to decrym Gagins himself of that sort of the joviality that is such a key part of his performance, I think is a great challenge for him as an actor. And I get why he wanted to try that.

and why he's playing the part that way and ultimately why Rick is kind of constructed and rounded out the way he is. But to say that this is a man who found a level of contentment or peace, I wouldn't say that was my read on the scene overall. I think there was a relief in I have done the thing I wanted to do,

which is confront Jim Hollinger. It didn't go the way I thought, but ultimately I think what Rick needed, whether he was aware of it or not, was not to shoot Jim Hollinger, not to threaten him, not to hold a gun to his head, not to exact some kind of like revenge in a very traditional sense, but like, this is a dude who needed to be heard and needed this guy, needed to leave a mark on this man in the way that he thinks he left one on him.

So there's a relief in that. But to say that Rick in this moment has found like contentment or peace, I just don't see the arc that is leading us there. I agree with Goggins, but I have a caveat. I, to me, Rick did look at peace in that scene. It was just sort of like there's his party going on around him and he's like, I don't mean it. I mean, he's had, and I talked to Bill and Mallory about this, they kind of disagree with me, but like, he's had some drinks, but he's not, like, smoking meth or whatever it is that, you know, and, like, the girls are offering him hard drugs.

Is that a meth party? That doesn't look like a meth party? What was the pipe that Frank was smoking from? Yeah, I have no idea what they were smoking. It was a cocaine party, but, like, he was smoking. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Meth seems like a different vibe than what they're trying to cultivate in there. I mean, I don't know what it was, but it wasn't, it wasn't a standard.

I don't know what a standard drug doctor is. Come to the prestige TV podcast for all of your recreational drug tips. We've got you. We've got you covered for sure. But I think he was just like, I don't need any of this. This is not something I need or want. I am content. I've put that to bed and I'm content to just go back to Chelsea and live happily ever after.

Now again, that might be me projecting a happy ending. And the thing that I'm worried about, can you read what he said about peace for a moment? What did he say? He said, it's not joy, but there's contentment or peace for a moment. For a moment makes me worried about Rick and the finale. Yep. I hadn't seen that quote that makes me worried. Okay, cool, cool, cool.

All right. In terms of worry for the finale, let's talk about Guy Talk for a second. And this is something that we've been wondering about all season, which is Guy Talk, who has been urged by MOOC from the beginning of the season to sort of Man up, be a bigger, bolder you. The gun was introduced. Not even be a bigger, boulder you. Be someone else. Yeah, don't be you.

Don't be you. You is not who I want. I want something else. Okay. Straight up. Our listener who signed their email, GCH, said, don't forget Guy Tuck was an unbelievable shooter when they went to the range with his boss. He even complimented him. And Abby says, poor Guy Toc is just a gentle soul who can't stomach violence of any kind.

And book, for some reason, is trying to turn him into someone he isn't. There's scene where he expressed his aversion to violence. She said, I thought you were more ambitious than that. It was frankly disturbing and manipulative, and I'm worried for him. Okay. So I don't know about manipulative, but definitely disturbing. And definitely, I just wanted to get your take on this. This, to me, feels like a real flip on your early season read where you were like,

poor MOOC is being pursued by this quote of capital N, capital G, nice guy. And she just wants to be left alone. And I understood where you were coming from because that is definitely an archetype that I always like us to be on the lookout for. But the end of the season, here we are. And we're like, poor Guy Talk. Don't like, let Mook go. Like, love and respect to her.

Let her want what she wants. That's fine. What she wants isn't you. Yes. Don't change who you are inherently. A friend of mine was texting me after the, after this week's episode. And she was like, I love Guy talk as this sort of counter depiction of masculinity. That masculinity can all kinds of different things.

And for Guy talk, it's this pacifist, gentle. sort of thing. And she's like, I like that in the context of all the archetypes that we're talking about here. And I was like, yeah, but I'm worried. Then in the finale, he's going to betray that for in pursuit of this thing that he wants, which is the beautiful, lovely, beguiling mook, like, who can blame him. But that's crushing. If he is involved in the shootout at the end of the season, it will be a massive betrayal of his, like, most close held core principle. And so do

you want, and we talked to this a little bit on Sunday, but like, do you want a finale where Guy Talk does shoot, does do the thing that Mook thinks that he should do, that is natural to do? Do you want a finale where Guy talk opts out of the shootout

and chooses his own core principles over Mook's expectations of him? What seems most interesting to you? I would prefer for that character for him not to shoot. Yeah. That said, he is going to shoot.

Yeah. Like, it is going to be one of the tension points of the finale. I would say in part because Guy Talk and Mook's story can't go anywhere else. This is the only direction that their relationship has been going and that their scenes and dialogue together have been going. And so this character who is constitutionally opposed to violence and spiritually opposed to violence, it's not him and it's not the person he wants to be in the context of a broader world. is going to participate in something that by experience earlier in this season, he has been taught he's quite good at.

And that makes me incredibly nervous. I think the foreboding part and sort of like the lead-in of Guy Taught going to the gun range and being exceptionally accurate, his first time out, is not that he's going to shoot someone correctly in the finale. It's that he's going to go in with the confidence

of somebody who shot really well at the gun range in a live non-target practice situation in which monkeys may be involved, and from there, who knows what could happen? Like, I do think Guy Talk is a person pulling the trigger. Are there more guns involved? Are there more victims involved? I don't exactly know. But I think shots are going to be fired, and Guy Talk is going to be pulling the trigger.

Our listener Joe asked, any chance the gunshots are a red herring, meaning, yes, there will be a shootout, but any chance that the body that's floating in the water has nothing to do with the bullets flying at the end of the season. What if they're just watching the notary really, really loud? Someone just someone cranked up the subwifer. And, you know, they're just watching some great action set pieces. You know, Statham went off in that thing. It sounded more like the executor to me than it did the notary just just by listening. But sure.

That's really funny. Okay. I have one more sort of question I want to ask you before I do that. I realized that I didn't have on my list to talk to you about anything to do with Lori. This is a huge Lori episode, huge Kerry Koon episode, talking about con men. Alexi, I think, did a little bit of a better job, actually, than Frank and Rick, but just, like, really fumbled it at the end, did not do his due diligent research on Lori to know whether or not she was the fancy that he should be pursuing if he had this dollar amount in mine. He was told, like, straight up at the pool that she's this hot shot lawyer, that she's playing, paying palimony, right? Like, she's got some money.

Yeah. In fact, probably enough if she needed to, to move around exactly $10,000. in U.S. cash. If she wanted to, she probably could. For this guy, she just met and had sex with one time and his poor, poor, probably fictional mother, at least for her probably fictional problems. Yeah. Yeah, you shouldn't do that, clearly.

Right, of course. Anything else going to say about Lori or her escape or the as-expected pile of jewelry from the boutique smash and grab or anything else? I share Mallory's opinion that we didn't need the flashback. backs regarding Guy Talk or Lori and the robbery. And I feel often just kind of insulted when we do get those things. So trust us. It's only been a couple episodes. We can remember it. It's fine. Overall with Lori's story, I think the stuff with her at the fight while fun and lively and overall her relationship with Alexia, like I enjoyed those scenes. To me, it's so much more about still her

with Jacqueline and Kate. And they're twisting dynamic at dinner together. A couple of bottles of Rosean who knows how many at that time. Like they're pouring them fast. It's just a wonder to me that these three people, despite how much they had in common growing up, as far as like geographically, demographically, coming from such similar places have so, so, so little in common as far as like who they are as people.

Do you think there's a possibility for Jacqueline and Laurie to bond over sexual mistakes they've made with a Russian on this trip? You know what? After I was just saying they don't have a lot in common, they certainly do have a lot in common. If Valentin asks for exactly $10,000 in U.S. cash, then they have something to come together. If Lori's like, Jacqueline, I'm sorry, I judge you so harshly. I mean, she should judge Jacqueline for plenty of things. I'm not defending Jacqueline.

Jacqueline sucks. But if she's like, you know, I made a big fucking mistake with Lexi. You made a big fucking mistake with Valentin. Like, let's just call it a day and move on. from here. Do you think that's a possibility for them? I think the difference is like who is the mistake at the expense of. Very true. Look, Jacqueline's mistake, she's a married woman, doesn't seem like that was exactly in the rules and the term agreement as far as like her sleeping with random Russians on vacation.

She keeps it a secret for a reason, right? Like she is embarrassed of this idea and does not want to tell the other women about it. And the fact that she is hiding it tells you that she knows on some level that what she did is messed up. Lori is trying to have a good time. And I think has a good time in a largely college debauchrous kind of way. Gets involved with a man she probably should not have gotten involved in. Who is she really hurting

except for his girlfriend, I guess. Well, I would say she gets more hurt than the girlfriend does. If we're talking about characters who chose violence in this episode, Alexi's girlfriend,

just wailing on people. Support it. I support it. Yeah, I don't, yeah, absolutely true. It's not the same. What they've done is not the same. And Jacqueline certainly,

I really, if there's going to be any kind of reconciliation, I need Jacqueline to acknowledge what she did at Lori's expense. And White Lotus is not a show that necessarily has characters like this, have any kind of self-awareness. So, you know, I'm not saying I'm holding my breath for it. The only reason I might be a little bit is that as of now, episode seven, Jacqueline is so unlikable in this episode and they have loved to do the revolving door or I guess more of a conveyor belt in terms of who is kind of front and center, who is beginning

put on blast between these three women who is sort of the target of the other two. And we haven't really seen anyone be the sustained source of ire. And I think Jacqueline will have some moment in the finale that endears us to her a little bit more. Maybe it's a reconciliation. Maybe it's something else. But ultimately there's this like fundamental tension between her and Lori that I don't think a lot of conversation can fix, which is Lori is, even by her friend's diagnosis,

which I think is largely correct, a like go with the flow type. I don't think she's playing. the victim or like has an endemic kind of worry as a result of that. I think maybe they're a little bit harsh in their characterization of Lori's life. But it's clear that she has not seized the reins and the control of everything in her life to a degree that she could have. I might agree with you, except I think what's interesting in an interview that Carrie Coon gave to Vanity Fair, she was sort of talking about this as maybe an eye-opening experience for Lori of like, hey, maybe I do make self-destructive decisions. Do you know that like... I don't think

they're self-destructive decisions. I think they're like non-destructive decisions. I think they're like non-destructive decisions that end up in damage. Yeah. You know, it's not that she is going down the wrong road. It's that someone says, hey, do you want to go down this way? And she just kind of shrugs and goes along with it. And then now 15 years later, she's divorced. Something I like about this podcast, Rob, is that we listen and we don't judge.

We support people at all their endeavors. Except Jacqueline sometimes. It's, again, hard not to judge Jacqueline in this episode. I would say especially because I don't know whether this is a me thing or a show thing, but I do feel a little more sympathetic to Lori's pretty. perspective. I do feel, I do feel more sympathetic, not just to what has happened to her at the White Lotus, but kind of who that person is and the decisions that they make. Whereas Jacqueline is the kind of person who sees, like, she's so assertive in a way that probably was key to her becoming a successful actress in the first place, but also leads her to see like every, every bit of empty space is an opportunity, including getting in with Valentin, when the time serves. I think the thing that's true of us as, as. and you and I are not a monolith, we say things differently, but like as TV viewers or as consumers of story, it's most interesting to us when characters show some sort of vulnerability. So when did Saxon become an interesting character to me when he became a more vulnerable character?

Also when he became more Chelsea's type, if we're going to be honest about it. Yeah, well, but like that goes hand in hand when he starts to grow a little baby soul inside of him, when he has some vulnerability, when he has some introspection, when he has some self-reflection. Jacqueline right now is doubling down on no introspective, no introspection, no self-reflection. There is this like, I really hated her whole like, people whisper about me wherever I go. I really didn't need it for my friends. Like, that's not true vulnerability. And I'll just, I'll be the bad guys. I'm used to it.

That's not actual self-reflection and vulnerability. But she, there is potential for her to have that in the finale. And if she does, I would like to see that from her. Right now, she sucks. And I don't like her. And with love and respect to Michelle Monaghan. Okay, last and not least. If there's a way back for Saxon, there's a way back for Jacqueline.

That's what I'm saying. And also, Joanna, who would you be, if not someone who is endeared to a previously irredeemable character with a baby soul growing inside them? This is your zone. It really is. Okay. That's true. Wow. Right down the middle.

Okay. Amber wrote in to say, we've gotten version of this email throughout the season, but this is the first time I'm taking it seriously. Okay. With love and respect to all the other versions we've gotten. Amber says, I'm a lawyer slash legal journalist, and I couldn't stop thinking about the legal doctrine that you've probably heard of the fruit of the poisonous tree. Basically, it is the one where if you obtain evidence illegally, anything that you discover that comes from that first illegal act is tainted and can't be used in court. So we've been getting emails about this all season when we're like, hey, there's a literal fruit of the poisonous tree at the Ratliff compound. And people are like, have you heard of this doctrine?

But I don't, and forgive me if I missed it, but I don't think in previous emails they made such a connection between that to this idea of Tim Ratliff getting off scot-free. So this idea, it's not just like fruit of the poisonous tree for fruit of the poisonous tree's sake. It's fruit of the poisonous tree, this idea that if you obtain evidence illegally, anything you discover that comes from that first illegal act is tainted and can't be used in court. If that is what gets Tim Ratliff out of the absolute morass than that. he has found himself in. If he gets his phone back and is like, oh, hey, the first step they took in this investigation was illegal. So the whole thing is tossed out.

Then you get to go home. And you don't need to tell anyone that you dreamt about murdering your family for a couple days in Thailand. Nobody ever needs to know that, Tim. Again, I said this on the Sunday pot, but it really does feel to me like Tim Ratliff is the kind of character for whom there will be no actual consequences. If he manages to just not murder anyone between now and the boat ride home, I think he's capable of that? Well, he doesn't have the gun anymore, so that helps.

I feel like he's not going to jail. I feel like that's true. So, yeah. I do agree with you. It does feel like that might be where we're headed. I do wonder how that's going to leave people watching this show. If the summation of Tim Ratliff's story all season is nothing, right? It is self-perpetuating anxiety. and a drug-addled stupor for seven straight episodes leading in nothing. I think that's a fair part of an ensemble story, but it's an ensemble story that we have dedicated quite a bit of time to. This is not just like a running background thread. This is a key element that many other characters are hinging on.

It's a great point. Will anyone be satisfied with the White Lotus finale? Tune in and find out. Tune in and find out. All right. So we'll be back on Monday next week to talk about White Lotus episode eight. I agree. I have to say one more thing.

Of course. And it is a moment of very sincere thanks for something I have been clamoring for, begging for from the White Lotus this season. Guy talking MOOC. Thank you for giving us some street food. Thank you for taking us on a proper date. Like, why are you going to take me to one of the great street food areas of the entire world? And look, it wasn't necessarily in Bangkok. I don't think they're in Bangkok.

I don't know where they're on their date. But at least thank you for indulging me. this little bit with some proper noodles like it was the least you could do yeah you love you love a noodle okay thank thank you to white lotus for uh making all of rob's anthony bourdain dreams come true we appreciate you as always we'll be back for our episode eight uh like said we're recording on monday so you want to get those emails into monkey shootout at gmail dot com don't listen to anything michelle monahan says uh thanks to the whole crew on the episode episode today. We've got CT here. We've got Justin Sales. We've got Donnie Beecham on the edit. We are,

we appreciate the whole team. My time in LA is wrapping up. I'm moving out of the void soon. How do you feel about that? How do I feel about leaving the void? Yeah, specifically. Leaving the void, I'm overjoyed. I, you know, love podcasting with you in person, Rob, but doing it over Zoom from a weird little black box is, is its own, its own little experiment. No, but it's been really fun to be in L.A. actually. It's been really, really fun. And I will, we'll see you guys later for the pit. Okay, that's how this episode ends. Bye.