The Prestige TV Podcast - Vince Gilligan’s ‘Pluribus’: Episodes 1-2 Breakdown

Episode Date: November 7, 2025

Jo and Rob take a break from licking donuts to recap the first two episodes Apple TV’s new series, ‘Pluribus’. (00:00) Intro (1:09) Apple TV crashes (2:39) The ‘Pluribus’ budget (7:18) What makes this a Vince Gilligan show (16:29) Naming the email address (22:25) What is the show about? (38:08 ) Breaking down what happened (59:07) Most Gilligan-esque moments Email us! [e-mail] or [e-mail] Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of ‘The Prestige TV Podcast’ and so much more! Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney Producers: Kai Grady and Donnie Beacham Jr. Additional Production Support: Justin Sayles Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson. I'm Rob Mahoney. And it is Pluribus Friday. The first of many Pluribus Fridays we'll be sharing together. Rob and I are here to cover the Apple TV Plus show Pluribus from start to bitter end. It can only be bitter, I imagine. Does you think this is well?

Oh, I've seen this movie. You've seen this movie. You've all seen this movie. We are today going to talk about specifically episodes one and two. because they dropped as a double premiere last night, Thursday night. So if you have not seen episode one, we as us, written and directed by Vince Gilligan. Or is I prefer, we as y'all. We as y'all, as we said before we started recording in Rob's local dialect.

And then episode two, Pirate Lady, written and directed by a Vince Gilligan. So we will be talking about those two episodes. So spoilers for those episodes. But go watch the show. We should say, you know, before we start everything, this premiere, I don't know it was correlation or causality. But when this premiere dropped last night, Apple TV crashed for like hundreds and thousands of users. Now, what I like to believe is because everyone was eagerly tuning in to this Vince Gilligan show.

I would like to believe that. But Rob, any thoughts about that? I mean, you can't pay for press that coincidental. Yeah. To the point that, you know, like my, I'm starting to wonder, you know, is this choreographed, is this plant, is this show that is about the mass manipulation and choreography around the world? Like, it would not surprise me if Apple TV Plus all of a sudden had all of its ducks in a row to shut down at just the perfect time.

So either congratulations or congratulations, whichever way it went. The last time I remember this happening, I mean, I know it happened with Thrones a couple times and I remember it happened with the true detective season one finale for the old, the old HBO Go days. Well, Throne's was just a rendering issue, right? Like, they just couldn't get the blacks black enough on screen. And so, you know, we all suffered together. We really did.

We really did. Anyway, I would love for a monoculture, shaking, groundbreaking premiere to have crashed Apple TV. I don't know if that's the case. But Plyrobus is here. We've talked about a little bit in our anticipation of it. It is from Vince Gilligan, who created Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul. It is a hugely expensive show, surprise, surprise from Apple TV. And we're going to talk about sort of where we see those dollars because it's not in the usual place you see on an Apple TV Plus show, which is in the cast, right?

We don't have... Well, Jennifer Anison could show up in episode three. We don't know. I can't wait to see her eerie smile. So Ray Sehorne is the star of this show. and that's it. I mean, you know, we get Miriam Shore as her sort of scene partner for half of episode one.

And then Carolina Wydra shows up as Zosha, who seems like she's the co-lead of the show maybe going forward. But there are no huge movie stars in this, which is something we've kind of come to expect from an Apple TV plus show. So this is the sort of like hand-wringing so many people have done at the top of their pluripus, like, reviews or articles or whatever is like, are people going to care about a non-IP show that doesn't have a star in it in 2025 and that the sort of like the biggest hook they have is from the creator of Breaking Bad, Better Call Sol, Not Too Shabby. What do you think, Rob? I think it has about as good of a shot as a show with those parameters has. And like, you know,

you were talking about how it would be great if we had this sort of monocultural moment around a show again. Like, this feels special. This feels special. This feels like something that yeah, there's familiar beats. There's obviously familiar filmmaking, but the subject matter, the pacing, like, it feels grabby in a way that is really exciting. And once it grabs hold of you, it just begs you to want to ask questions to like have a deeper understanding of what's happening, to look inward as far as it. It's a classic like, what would you do in this situation kind of show that I could see it like really having a moment and getting some momentum. But it is an uphill battle when you don't have that kind of star power.

It is an uphill battle when, you know, when you are putting the money on screen in impressive ways, it's still not like action set pieces, right? Like, this is not, not only do you not have Idris Elba, you don't even have the hijack. Like, what is one to do? But Air Force One is here, Rob. I guess we did hijack. You know what, you're right. That's a great point leads me in sort of my first talking point, which is you put up this question about, like, the questions we want to have answered.

But this is and isn't a theory show. Like, in the way that, like, what is happening? question mark, what is the nature of this epidemic or whatever you want to call it, question mark. There are so many answers that come at the end of episode one and in episode two. Whether or not we want to believe what we're being told is a question we can ask, but were you surprised by how many answers we got in just these first two episodes? You know what?

I'm actually not. And some of that is because it is a Vince Gilligan show where the pacing and like his shows do just kind of move. Like they are plot machines. They like I guess better call. They don't because he takes his time with these sequences in a way where I love them, but then I get anxious. Like, are people going to want to watch this lady go from Morocco to Albuquerque, not not even knowing why with like, for 12 minutes with no score behind it? Like is that, is that something people are excited about? I think it's really cool. But I have questions about that. It is a completely fair question. But I do think in his shows, generally speaking, there's a lot of like, okay, that happened, so what's next? Like,

the big thing is out of the way. Like, sometimes very quickly, yeah, sometimes it's like you wait season upon season until you have an epiphany on the toilet. Like, yeah, that is a thing that can happen in these shows. But ultimately, like, his projects are very interested in like the very, sometimes grounded in real repercussions of the things that happened. And it's like how you pick up the pieces, how you reckon with everything that's transpiring. And so in order to do all the reckoning, there's got to be a lot of transpiring. And so I didn't think this was going to be a show where everything would be teased out until the end. That said, we're just kind of getting the first turn. And there could be, I don't know, other viruses or alien species. Like, you know, there's so

many possibilities as to where a story like this could go that it's okay to reveal some stuff right out of the gate. And it really only kind of adds to the baiting of the hook in a lot of senses. Rob, I don't know if you know this, but they told us we are not aliens. They did say that. But they're an RNA programmed strand sent from space? Right. Alien enhanced. Is an alien virus an alien? This is a great existential question.

What makes a human a human? I actually generally think that's the question that the show wants to ask, right? This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Hey, you could be earning 2% daily cash back on that purchase. And that one. And even that one. That's because Apple Card users earn 2% daily cashback

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So to get back to the sort of Gilligan core idea, what makes A. Vince Gilligan show? Because this is what Apple is banking on. Apple is banking on the fact that we will be, excited about a Vince Gilligan show from the creators of Breaking Bad and Better Calls All, that we will be thirsty for something that feels more severance-esque, you know, except again, unlike severance or some other mystery box shows,

this is not trying to hide the ball from us in a meaningful way unless it is and we're being duped. And I think that's interesting. I saw a lot of comps to severance from people's reactions to the first two episodes. The last of us, of course, got called out, especially like when we're watching Racie Horn drive in a truck through like murder of mayhem in the first episode in order to try and fail to save the person who's most important to her. That's very season one episode one of the last of us. The leftovers.

Definitely. You know, I saw Gilligan goes Lindelof is like sort of a thing I saw. So what makes this a Gilligan, Vince Gilligan show and what makes this not events Gilligan show in your view? Before we even get to that, John, I'm curious with all those shows kind of in the sauce here. I was getting like some Last Man on Earth. Did you get any of that, the like Will Forte series? Wow. I haven't thought about that in a very, very long time.

But yeah, yeah, yeah. I hadn't either. And then all of a sudden it's like over the top dupis flies it on Air Force One. And it's like, oh yeah. Like there's just something about the opportunity that a world like this provides. It's tapping into all of these different properties. And so it's it is post-apocalyptic. And it is existential.

And it's also like having its fun with some of these ideas, too. Absolutely. I mean, so a couple of things I want to say about that. First of all, on the official pod, which I always recommend an official pod around Vince Gilligan show. They've been doing it like before podcasts were a thing on Breaking Bad. And I've listened to every single one of them. And they have like all of the behind the scenes people on it.

And like not that I love to advertise for other podcasts on our podcast. You should listen to us too. But the Gilliganverse official podcasts are always extremely good. And on the episode about episode one, he talked about his inspiration for this, which is years and years ago. They were working on Better Call Saul and he was taking a walk and he was like, what if you were the last person on Earth? And suddenly everyone around you was really solicitous to your needs. And he's like, and I started thinking about it. And his original concept, the main character was a male.

And he was like, then it got really porny really quickly. Yes. Is what he said. So I think that that's what Samba's character is supposed to represent. in episode two. And so he's like, okay, well, what if it's a woman? And then he was thinking about, I dream of genie and bewitched and sort of like, what makes those stories work.

And it's someone who's resistant to. There's someone here, be it your wife who's a witch or a genie that is your girlfriend, who is like, I will do anything you want. And you're like, I don't want that. That's where there's like good traumatic tension. So those are some of the bones that are here. And then also, before I did Breaking Bad, a Better Call Saul, of course, Vince Gilligan worked on X-Files, and he cited Darren Morgan, who's my favorite X-Files writer, as an inspiration here

for that comedy that you're talking about. Darren Morgan wrote the episodes, Humbug, War the Copperfages, Jose Chung's from outer space, Clyde Bruckman's Final Repose, a couple different, like, bangers. Classics that are weird. Yes. And most specifically fun. Yeah.

It's very weird. And most specifically, very funny. And so that is like a tone that he's reaching for in this. And I think when he said Darren Morgan, I was like, yeah, that's, that's a lot of what we're dealing with here, which is really exciting to me. Yes. Yeah, I think like the Vince Gilligan formula does include all of those kind of fundamental things. And you could even see it in like supposedly more serious fare. Like the humor can't help but creep out.

The weirdness can't help but infiltrate a lot of the characters and beats and things like that. And his shows are also great premise shows, like especially Breaking Bad very famously, like the Mr. Chips to Scarface model. Right. And then how do you get there? in like this is a different inversion of that where it's like we don't know where we're going and so we don't have the reverse engineering of trying to guess ahead of the plot to your point about how this isn't like the most theory friendly show but i think it will be theory friendly in the open-endedness of it and that's kind of a what feels like a new frontier for gilligan is like we don't have you know characters we're familiar with like saw goodman and kind of know where he ends up more or less and we don't have the scarface endpoint kind of plotted out for us in interviews this could be anything it could be about anything it could take us anywhere in the world. Like the possibilities from a filmmaking perspective, I think are kind of dazzling. And that from an audience member, I think, opens up a lot too.

I think that I love that point. And I think something that I felt so Gilligan to me in watching this was, again, those slow patient, he's so interested in procedure and process. This appeals to me, Joe. I have to say, just like the OCD in me watching everything. slide into place. I want to come back to it, but it's very appealing. The cook montages in Breaking Bad, of course, were sort of the most famous example of this, but he loves a sort of establishing montage. This is something he built up to, you know, you and I just recently watched the Breaking Bad pilot. It's not really there, but eventually he will get to this point where it's like, you know,

you're watching a symphony of a sort of like quotidian, like a car wash or something, you know what I mean? It's just something like, let's take this ordinary thing and show you sort of the way in which the pieces of it are rhythmically, balletically sort of working around each other and give you some visual eye candy to go with it. And it's just sort of mesmerizing these, and very patient. And I was really excited to see a lot of that, especially in episode two, but also in episode one when we see the like the scientists in their sort of candy colored, you know, protective suits, sort of like working with the peachy dishes in concert with each other and stuff like that. Like that's so very Gilligan.

completely. You know, in conversation with those other pilots we watch, not just breaking bad, but I think this also has some in common with the lost pilot as well in that very like throw these people into the heat of something that they have no means of understanding. And it is first the initial rush, right, of like how do we get out of the situation? How do I get my friend who's in peril to the hospital? Like how do we put out the fires that are engulfing Albuquerque into, okay, like you get past the first fire and then it's like,

what is life like now? Like, what do we do on the next day? And that's such a great formula for a double pilot. And I think a situation that completely merits it. Like, this pairing of episodes, I think is such a great way to kind of catapult us into the season. I love that you invoked loss, not just because personally it throws me to have you have a working understanding of lost, Rob.

Rob Mahoney, who has watched all of loss now. It really was a, you know, a toilet-style revelation for me. finishing lost and then replaying in my head all of the conversations and podcasts I have had with you in which you have attempted to compare things to lost while I stare at you blankly, nodding along, pretending that I understand what you're talking about or at least, you know, pretending to continue the conversation. And now it's all just clicking into place. I feel like my whole life has been recontextualized, Joe. Oh, a real Joanna listens to Rob talk about the NBA moment for you anytime I talked about lost. But on the loss front, let's talk about a little bit

terminology. On the official pod, they said this is what they are calling the us and the 12 people who are not the us. And they're calling the us the others, which is a classic lost terminology. You didn't like that. What do you want to go with? I don't have a better solution. Like this is the problem at this point is we don't know enough about who they are or what their aims are to give them like a really evocative term. And they don't seem too interested in PR themselves. hence the joining. You know, it's like they, they're just going to kind of roll

with the low-hanging fruit with this stuff. That's the best they came up with the joining. Really is. Maybe the joined is like, you know, if that's... A little better. The others, the joined, if you have a suggestion,

prestige TV at Spotify.com or Rob and I will have an episode, a show-specific email for you before this episode's over. I do have one proposal for you, Joe, regarding the name of this virus. You know, again, we don't know a lot about it or what its aims are or exactly. I mean, it clearly can affect humans and also rats at the very least.

Maybe other animals we'll see over time. Babies. Communicated very critically by saliva. You know, you can lick a donut or, as we see over and over, just people making out left and right. I propose to you the smooch virus. How do you feel about the smooch virus? I don't hate it. You know?

I don't. But like, do you think mono will get upset because isn't it like the kissing disease? Is it mono like that's my brand? Mono is going to be suing Apple immediately. Like this is critical. This is all Mono has. This is all Mono has. Exactly.

All right. So they call, they're calling the us, the others. And then Carol and the rest. And this is the others I can roll with. This is the one where I'm having some issues with. But they're calling the 12th, the old school. No. simply not.

Ms. Gilligan, we think you're an actual genius, but Rob and I don't like this. So what do you want to call them? Do you have any thoughts? I mean, the leftovers. No. The immune, like, again, something. Something. Okay.

This is one that I think we very crucially do need to crowdsource, Joe. As you said, please email us at prestige TV at Spotify.com or our show-specific email to be announced at any point during this podcast. who's to say. But we need help. Do you want to do it right now? Let's do it. Let's battle it out. Okay.

Rob and I have dueling ideas. I really have one idea. Rob has several. Rob, what do you have? So my initial idea was your life is your own at gmail.com. That's obviously taken by some Instagram guru. Like that was never going to be in the cards. I did consider proud haughty Rabon.

Yeah. But the spelling on Rabon is like maybe could trick some people. I don't want anyone's emails to get lost out in the ether. I came down to two. Okay. One, psychic glue at gmail.com, which I like, but I much prefer lightning bolt unicorn at gmail.com. Very good. The hood decoration on the truck that Carol drives home.

Would drive that truck for the record. Fantastic stuff. Here's my one and only. And I'll tell you this. I had to workshop it because versions of it were taken, but I settled on. Okay. I wanted to do donut liquor at gmail.com, but that is... How did I miss donut liquor?

disturbingly take it. That was right there. So I got Licking the Donut at gmail.com. That's very good. Do you like that? I think we have to go at Licking the donut at gmail.com. It's licking the donut at email. Thank you, Rob, for letting me have this. I appreciate it.

I am slightly terrified to see what emails we receive at Licking the donut at gmail.com, but that's part of the fun job. That is the risk you take. I want to hear, however, from donut liquor at gmail.com, who are you? There were several iterations that I had to go through. So like this theme of licking donuts has been taken by several Gmail users. I'm curious if they're related to pluribus or this is a long-established. I love to lick donuts sort of things.

Anyway. If you're out there and squatting on it, I will pay $5 for donut licker at gmail.com. I'll throw it another five. That's a $10. That's a match right there. It's ten whole dollars. Let's get a go fund me going for donut liquor at gmail.com. But in the meantime, licking the donut at gmail.com is, and not licking donut.

nuts, linking the singular donut at gmail.com is diabolical joke, phrasingly what we have here for this particular podcast. Okay, to go back to the others versus old school, or please send your other suggestions to us at licking the donut at gmail.com. Something they talked about on the official pod that I really was fascinated by. First of all, they hired a choreographer to work with all the background, you know, actors in all of these scenes. And at first they had everyone moving exactly the same and speaking in precise unison. And they decided that the effect was too creepy, that they're not trying to go for like that creepy. We do get some like children of the corn energy from the neighbor kids and stuff like that.

But for the most part, they were really trying to calibrate. And Vince Gilligan said things on the pod, like we still don't know what makes the others tick or other things like that. which is classic Gilligan. Like I haven't figured it out yet. I'll figure it out. But calibrating the level of the smile. That's something they talked about a lot. Like they were like, how do we convey pleasant and not menacing?

And so not overtly menacing, but still disquieting to us at home. Do you know what I mean? Like that sort of thing is something they really, really worked to get exactly right. And especially with Carolina who plays Zosia. Like that is something that, you know, and I think she's fantastic. She has up an episode two, really, really good. But she has to really nail it because she's the one who's going to be here and has to be, like, aggravating to Carol, but also someone that Carol will run and stand in front of Air Force One, four by the end of episode two. You know what I mean?

I can tell that they got that calibration right just based on my, like, physical response to watching these episodes. Like, well, there are those, like, children of the corn moments. and the synergy of just like the slow walking of all of these extras in the background. And I think one of the joys of the first episode in particular is as everything is going to absolute shit, including when everyone is just kind of seizing, watching everything that is happening in the background, like all of the, you know, these singers who are frozen in place and the band members and the waitresses and the people in the hospital waiting room. It's like everyone is so perfectly mid-something and in a way that is kind of frozen in time,

but obviously not and incredibly eerie. And then once they do start moving in unison, it is unsettling. And yet, like, intellectually, I do go through the paces with these two episodes are being like, you know what? Does the virus have a point? Like, we, I wouldn't say we had a good run as a species, but we did have a run. I don't know that we made the best of it at all times. Like, this is where I come down to with this show and why I'm so impressed with, like,

where and when it is happening. Everything right now in real life is so fundamentally. that I am very open to the virus's pitch. Okay, your team Lakshmi. Your team like, Carol, stop ruining it for the rest of us. I'm just saying, I'm here for the presentation. I'm not buying the timeshare yet, but I'm open. Okay, so this feeds into the next thing I want to ask, which is, what is this show about?

You know, and I've seen a lot of people wonder how much this show is about artificial intelligence, the way in which Zosha and the rest of them have access to all this information kind of kind of scrape information and sort of feed it back to you in the sort of like most pleasant ingratiating way that they could possible how can I help you how can I be of service to you I have access to all the information in the world and how can I do this for you but also did we get this wrong did we in literally trying to serve your needs mess this up somehow or what are the fundamental ways in which this is not the human experience like I was thinking specifically in episode two when we get the contrast of when we first see Zosha in Morocco, she's wandering out of,

you know, grubby and wandering out of, you know, not the desert, but sort of the countryside, to pull a crisp burn body out of a car and a guy rolls up in a bakery truck to, with a burlap sort of body bag. So there's that approach. And then there's Carol finding quilts and lovingly wrapping Helen up, in a quilt that means something to both of them. That is like sort of the human, emotionally connective experience. And so there's this sort of like pleasant solicitous, we're here to remove the bodies. We do want to remove the bodies. The bodies are unpleasant.

We want to remove them. But we're not going to lovingly, we're not callously tossing them around, but we're not going to lovingly take care of them the way that a human would. Completely. You know, and Vince Gilligan has talked in various interviews around the show about, not about this is a show about AI, but about how he specifically is like in a very anti-AI headspace right now as I think are most original thinkers. So how does that AI metaphor work for you? What are you thinking about that? You know, I hadn't put it in those terms for myself. But now that you're

explaining it, it makes a lot of sense. And I think one of the sort of philosophical things that I was left with after these two episodes is, is a life without friction really life. Right. You know, like, if everything, like, there is an appeal to the, like, there's an easier way to do this proposal that Zosia comes with. Like, we're just going to air drop like a crane into your backyard, an excavator to your backyard. And it's like, all that pickaxing you've been doing, like, you didn't need to do that. It could have been this easy the whole time.

But without the friction, without the creative process, without the labor, without the love, like, you don't get that moment with the quilt. Yeah. And Ray Sehorne's so great in these episodes. And her taking the beat to like smell the quilts before she uses it to wrap her friend is heartbreaking stuff. And that's heartbreaking stuff from a character who it's kind of hard to be on Carol's side a lot. Can I say really quickly her wife, I believe, just, you know. Oh, is it her wife?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, see, I wasn't sure if it was like more of a business relationship. No, there's like a wedding photo of them next to the phone at one point. I'm negligent in my duties as a freeze framer, Joe. Thank you for correcting me. Yeah. But yeah, like you don't get any of that if you are just optimizing. And so like this fundamental tension between what is human and what is efficient, I think is kind of part of where the show starts budding heads.

But I love that AI comparison. I just had never really contextualized it in that way. I really agree with you in that like if it's too easy, if you're not sweating and getting grubby and to dig the grave, are you really engaged in this human moment of mourning at the same time? and this is what I like, there are no easy answers. The fact that Zosha's like, you don't have to do this by yourself. Yes. When Carol is such a stubbornly independent person, you know what I mean? Like, or maybe that's unfair to Carol because she is trying to form community with the other English speaking of the Romaine.

You know what I mean? Not well. But, you know, so, but this idea of like, I don't need anyone or anything I can do this myself. versus accepting help when you need help? Like I think there is a lesson for Carol to learn there as well. Oh, many. But can you do that while holding on to what makes a human a human sort of thing? See, this is why for me in terms of the what is the show about, my brain went to,

this is pointed right at like the these divided times sort of rhetoric and cliche. It's like what if we weren't divided at all? Like, what if we were completely unified in functioning as a collective species? Like, what does that mean? What does that look like? Like, what is the polar opposite of division? And is there anything even remotely human in that kind of universal agreement? I love that.

I think that so that tribalism idea, the us versus them, right? We get that very clearly here. But except for, you know, the other old school people that Carol meets with are. like, well, we have family members who are part of the others. So for us, it's different. You're all alone. You had one person. She's dead. You're a slightly unpleasant person. Carol is a slightly unpleasant person. That's like by design, you know? And so you had the one, you're one person. Your one person is gone. Because because there were adoring masses who wanted to have connections with Carol and she sort of held them at Bay, right? Because she's just sort of like,

rolling her eyes at them. So there was like people wanting to be in community with Carol already, her readers. But she had her one person, or one person's gone. And so she's like, oh, it's an us versus them. And then the other people are like, it's, it's the us is them that these are our family members. How sad for you that you don't have any family members here to show up with you. Like that's, that's tough. And that goes back to the leftovers. Com when you have a character like Carrie Coon's character, Nora, whose entire family disappeared. in the event that that instigates the leftovers versus other people lost some people, but not everyone.

And so I think that's a, that's really interesting thing. It puts you in a totally different kind of purgatory, right? Like if you are that isolated within a world that is already so isolated. But I, like, I love to kind of like thread these, these ideas together, Joe. Like you bring up earlier, you know, the sort of like gender swapping in the script of this initial, or the idea of this initially being a male character. And yes, we've made Carol a woman. but she also exercises a kind of like,

I dream of genie wish fulfillment professionally, like anchoring this in like a romantici author who is catering to the whims of these women who she like has a lot of contempt for. Yeah. It's just like such an interesting place to start this story and then have that character have to interrogate what it means to have her own wishes fulfilled

and if she even wants any of that and if she wants to be a part of any of this with any of these quote unquote people. I love that. It's interesting. I was talking to someone who had watched the episodes before they came out and he was asking me like, do you think the romanticcy contingent will be offended by the way in which they are sort of portrayed in this episode? And I was like, I don't know. I think Carol is very clearly like, I think Helen is a voice of reason.

You're bringing pleasure and happiness to these people. Yes. That's not a bad thing to do. That line has to come back, right? Like the like if you can make one person happy concept, that it feels like it's spiritually going to be a part of this show. Absolutely. So I just think that like I don't, I think Carol is sort of being positioned as being in the wrong there. Though the comedy of the book signing was very funny.

Genuinely great. The guy with his like rapier, well actuallying like the schooners and all that sort of stuff was really, really fun. But that's how you get to have it both ways. Like you get the comedy and then you get back to the car and it's like, oh, like this woman is terrible in her treatment of it. Like she's putting on this facade, but like this is what she really thinks of them. And then you have incredible empathy for even the guy with the rapier. Yeah. The, to go back to your in these divided times point, that's really interesting.

And I think that like, yeah, what is the danger? It goes back to this idea of tribalism, which came up a lot in The Last of Us. Who is the us inside of this? Sure. And the fact that like when Helen collapses, Carol's entire point. purpose from then on out is just sort of like, how do I help Helen? Right? She's not, how do I help anyone in this bar? She's just sort of like, I need to get this one person help. And that is- Not only, Joe, is she like, how do I help people in this bar? She's bowling over people in

the bar. She's running over people in the waiting room with the stretcher. It's like, these people basically don't exist. She does say sorry, but yeah, it's, yeah. I guess. But yeah, that's sort of like, where do you circle the wagons? And also, like, Can you be an us of one? Like you can't like the way that episode two ends with her running after Zosha, someone who she resents and all these others. And yes, they have handpicked the person who's most likely to appeal to her. It's so gross.

Physically. It's so gross. Like all of that. But also just this idea like she needs someone to talk to. Not just for us viewers at home. But you know, just in general. general, like you can't navigate this alone, so she might as well have this person with her. And it doesn't hurt that that person looks like her physical ideal of a person. But, you know, here we are.

Or at least her physical idea of a space pirate. There you go. Also, shots fired at Brandon Sanderson, I got to say, because a ship that runs on colored sand is the premise of trust of the Emerald Sea. And I was like, oh, I was like, is that a Brando Sando direct hit? Did you sense a parallel? I was very curious if this was like a thing that people would have the call out for that I don't understand. When we do the book swap at the airport. Oh, Diana Gabbledon. Yes, the Diana Gabbledon text.

Is that a reference I should know or could know? Us Outlander. So, I mean, you know Outlander, right? Sure. Time traveling romance. I just didn't even realize what the subtext of that might be. I mean, what I will say is that Diana Gabbledon's Outlander series is like, not the first romanticcy, but like, also she insists shelved in fiction, not

Diana Gabbledon's a very interesting person. But anyway, that's like, gosh, what's the comp? What's the comp in like the sci-fi section? Like moving Michael Crichton out of the way for your book or something like that. So, yeah, that's a very dusty reference, Michael Crayton. But there we are. Okay. So back to the COVID idea, which was something that our pal Miles, sorry, wrote in his review on Theringo.com.

What a great website. Isolated, locked in your house. Nobody's around. Does any of that strike you as specifically COVID or specifically interesting to you? A little bit. I think the part that struck me as COVID is the same part that, you know, I wanted to talk about like, where does the money show up in this show? And for me, it is the empty space.

It is like, we cleared this area the fuck out. And we, like, not just are like descending on a set to shoot there, but it's like it has that 28 days later kind of feel of like, where are the people? And then they're all in their houses coming out in unison in a way that is like terrifying. Again, another thing that's kind of

in the ether and in the air with this show is like, you get a lot of like Stepford wives and some of that is because it is suburban and some of it is like the killing with like kindness and compliance like very suburban kind of conformity that is happening with this group.

But ultimately for me like that's where it felt most COVID-coded. It was just like looking out on a street that you're used to seeing full of life and people and there's just nothing there. because it's been meticulously scrubbed clean by all of these people who are picking up the bodies and moving the cars and putting out the fires. They're all perfectly good little worker bees, but the result of that is something that doesn't much resemble normal human life anymore. Where do you think they sleep? And do you think they sleep?

No, they don't. They don't sleep. They just keep working. They like Don't know Gleason style or just like eyes open in a closet somewhere, you know? This episode is brought to by Boris Head. What if we told you the taste of deep fried turkey is now? available at your local deli. Well, Boar's Head just did that. Bursing with flavor, perfectly seasoned with that indulgent taste that usually means pointing your whole day around it, presenting the

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grams of sugar, 40% less than the leading coffee creamers. Two good creamers are available in sweet cream, roasted vanilla and lavender. So which one are you trying first? Find two good creamers at your local retailer in the creamer aisle. This is something that we're going to check in with every week. I decided and Rob agreed, which is that this show has a $15 million budget per episode, which is not as big as like Thrones or something like that, but it's a lot. It's massive. Yes. And so the question we want to ask ourselves every week, and I think we can do both episodes here, pick your moment. Like, what is the moment where you looked at this and you said, is it the empty streets? This cost $15 million. That's... Maybe it was tricker. I'm sure this is like a trick of

cinematography too, but even seeing like the planes simultaneously pull up to five consecutive gates. Like I'm sure that is a trick or an effect of some kind, but I'm like, here's what I don't know. This feels expensive to me. Planes was initially my answer. And then I have another answer, but listening to them talk about the podcast, here's what I do. The C130, which is the plane that Zosha flies from Tengir to Albuquerque. The big old cargo plane. Was a plane that they flew in from Malaysia.

So that's a real plane that they got. She, Carolina, who plays Zosia, learned how to taxi the plane, not fly, but taxi it. So that is actually her in the plane on the, like, tarmac of the Albuquerque airport, like, taxing the plane. So that's one thing. I don't remember if they talked about the other planes all sort of landing together. But as for Air Force One, they built that. Crazy. So they built not a whole plane.

I think when she's standing in front of the nose, that's a digital effect. That looks like an effect for sure. But in terms of, and this is what we're talking about in terms of like seeing the money on the screen. Vince Gilligan wanted. They're all on the ground. They see it sort of roll into frame. He wanted that. The production designer was talking about how usually when you do something like this, you just have to build the door and we can go from there.

Vince Gilligan wanted the whole thing. So they built this enormous metal. It's like a facade. It's like a metal facade front that has set built into it so they can walk up those stairs onto set. But like a metal facade. So it's like they're talking about the Albuquerque wins because it's just like sheet metal, like flat sheet metal because it's just one side of the plane like rolling in the view. It's like that. So but that's astounding.

But here's what looks amazing. Here's an even more astounding rub. This is where I think I would put the I can tell this cost $15 million. They built that entire cul-de-sacet. back from scratch. Wow. They built houses. I mean, I'm not saying those houses are full or furnished, but they built houses, they poured

concrete, they bought some land, and they built houses on that land so that they could film there and do whatever they wanted there. I mean, I think Vince Gilligan is still scarred from like the Breaking Bad House becoming this like national monument that people like. Throw pizzas on the roof of. You know, so he's like, we wanted to do whatever we wanted to. wanted to do on the street there. So we just built this entire cul-de-sac. That's, if you, if you go re-watch this episodes and look at those houses, which are like, they're not tracked housing.

They're like intricate, interesting houses that they built from scratch on this street. That's like some deadwood level production happening. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Really good stuff. Anything else you want to talk about in a big picture way before we maybe go through some of the episode stuff? Maybe let's iron out just like, the nuts and bolts of what exactly happened in terms of the invasion itself. I want to make sure we're all on the same page, namely me, and in particular the one jump, right? Because we get the information that like this message has been transmitted through the cosmos. They're trying to figure out what it is. It's clearly like this formula for an RNA strand that is then tested

on the rat among other animals, which I guess like fakes its own death goes rat playing possum to get out of the cage, to then bite a person. Is that what it does? I thought it was sort of like, it's the sort of like everyone's frozen version of like the rat version of everyone's frozen. Oh, you think it was having a little mini rat seizure? Yeah, maybe. It's adorable and very sad. See, I thought it was doing it on purpose to get it. Because the only way it could spread would be to get out.

Oh, interesting. And if it is that cunning, you know, I have questions about, you know, the nature of this virus and what it is trying to do. But clearly it needs to spread. It needs to, you know, bite the nearest hand and then make out with somebody and then lick a donut. Yeah. And then clearly the plan is accelerated by we learn or are told, like, quote unquote, the military has found out about the spread of some issue or this virus. One of my favorite bits of choreography are like the eight simultaneous jet stream jets flying overhead, which is this the mechanism that is leading everyone else who has not been licked or kissed?

All the people, you know, Helen, all the people in the restaurant. Like, is that what is ultimately triggering them to join the other? I don't know, but I had that question too. Like, is that actually just indicative of people are flying the plane in concert? Like, you don't see chemtrails like that because you don't usually have planes flying in formation like that outside of when the Blue Angels come to San Francisco. But like, so is it that or is there something? I mean, chemtrails is just sort of feeding right into the QNon folks. So perhaps.

But I think it's. I don't know because, yeah, because it hits everyone at once, like everyone in that bar. But my thought about the bar was sort of like, was it in everyone's drink or something like that? But it hits them all simultaneously. So is it sort of sort of dropped somehow from the chemtrails? And if so, like, what's the smooch version of that? Like, you know, is it like droplets? Like, what do you, how do you do that?

It's got to be droplet. The droplets per smooch are obviously off the charts. But the droplets by AeroDrop from Chemtrail much more complicated. Okay, licking the donut at Gmail.com, if you are working infectious diseases and you know how this might work. But yeah, I really love the opening. We get this sort of like contact-esque sequence, right? With first we've got the astronomers. And I love the comedy of like it's two guys and then it's like a group of people.

And then it's like, you know, the guys playing catch. All the cars and trucks piling up outside. has people come to check it out. Alan McLeod, who plays like the first guy, who is a real that guy for me from You're the worst. Oh, definitely. And then in the U.S. Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases, which is Emrid, I think is how you pronounce that acronym.

I buy it. I don't know. Karen Soni, who plays like the second, the guy who, the other guy in the lab, who like then sort of waltzes down the stairs to smooch the janitor, another like actor I always love to see. And I just really loved his like whimsical approach to assaulting and assimilating the janitor here. Well, see, that one is assaulted. But then, look, we already know that just like as a species, we are vulnerable to, I mean, a species level alien invasion and under the skin type of alien invasion.

My main question was the speed at which we go from assaulting one janitor to now an entire squadron of military police have been smooched. brought in to swab and box? Like, I think our smooch defenses just leave a lot to be desired. I think that's true. Or do you think they were offered donuts? That's, you know, that's a question. You just walk around the dough. I mean, who among us, simply?

I would be incredibly susceptible. Be careful. Look at your, look for glistening saliva on your donuts from now on. It's not always glazed. Sometimes it's infectious diseases. Okay. And part of what we should talk about here in terms of like this moving through various scientific disciplines into the outbreak is we have this clock that I'm actually a little confused by because it's counting down. It feels like it counts down.

Yes. And then it counts back up. Right. So which is fine, right? We go to like zero hour when everyone except for the 12 are infected. The takeover moment. Right. And then the after.

I'm just a little surprised there isn't like a BCE, like, you know, like before or after or like it's a different color or like something like that. I was just like, I guess now we're going back up. But I think the thing that confused me about that was that as Zosha tells it, like this wasn't the exact plan. So it's not like, you know, the hive mind itself had the countdown clock of like we are all working to this time to take over. It's like, oh, no, we had to jump our process by eight different steps. Right. Which that is kind of confusing from a countdown perspective. We've already talked about the book signing scene.

I don't think there's anything else. Anything you want to say about this sort of like, so shout out bitter chrysalis, by the way, as like a name of an unpublished novel. Great stuff. You're very serious novel that you're terrified to actually publish. When Helen says talking about Finnegan's Wake, I tried it in grad school. It's probably great. Very good stuff. So that's how I feel about most fiction joke.

That's probably great, I'm sure. It's good for you. Rob, don't remind me of your one flaw. Okay, so, like, we go through all of that and then the outbreak. So anything you want to say about this outbreak sequence? I mean, I think it's incredibly thrilling television. The moment in which Carol gets clear of the initial bar and is trying to get to the hospital and you have the overlook moment of seeing Albuquerque and Flames, like a legit

goosebumps situation for me of just like that kind of zoom out, I think plays perfectly there of like we know instinctively that it's obviously not just this bar like there's going to be wider implications but seeing just how fast everything has gone to shit and how isolated carol already clearly is you know you have that you have all of these slow moving extras in the background you have the jet streams even just like the very particular way that the cop car has flipped over in the middle of the road like almost on its side pinning someone underneath like there's just something so evocative about so many of the visuals in these first two episodes, specifically in this takeover before the cleanup really comes in full force.

I also think it's really interesting. We get a couple moments here in the escape. That sort of flipped, I think it's an ambulance. It might be a cop car. But anyways, it's something like where when she first hears the siren sees the light, she goes, oh, thank God. Sort of like, I think that's the cop car. Rescue is here. And then it's like, oh, no, that's not going to help me. Oh, no, this, Dr. Nguyen's not going to help me. In fact, he's going to try to smooch me. This ain't a pit, Joe. And a reference I know get. And then and then, fuck yeah.

Like, God bless America when she turns on the TV and she thinks someone authoritative is there to help her. So like all these moments of like someone will come. Someone official. The system is here to come help me and save me. And the escalating realization that none of those infrastructures are in place anymore. In fact, they all belong to the other side. So what do you have now? Only their do no harm sort of ethos. Yeah, exactly. You know what? If you have to tell people what we're doing, we promise is the antithesis of slavery. I don't know. If you have to make that pitch, it's not great.

It's really tough. I do want to give a special shout out, Joe, to whichever pod person over at C-SPAN is updating the Kairns for the podcast, that your life is your own. We are one cycle. I have just laughed every time. it changed. We Are Not Aliens was just like crumb de la crumb. Really, really good. And the actor playing that really good stuff. So I want to note something else. In her escape after the hospital, we are, the camera's on her and we're seeing her react to things, but we don't get to see what she's reacting to until it's in her rear view.

We see it out the back, which I thought was really cool. cool and unusual. And this is where sort of a topic I thought we might do every week is like tiny detail you loved or something like that. I'm going to go with the person being helped into a car was missing part of their leg and then someone running up with the leg helpfully afterwards to like get in the car. Like she has a missing part of her leg and he's like, here's the leg. I have it is like pretty, pretty top tier visual gag in the background.

background. The background stuff in this show is so good. And yet, that's another area in which, like, a lot of TV, even high budget TV, there's just, like, there's nothing happening in the background of screens. It's so static. This feels like a world that is constantly shifting in, again, like a very alien sort of way that is alarming and is unusually helpful and compliant in a way that I think puts a twist on that whole formula. Like, we have seen these movies. We have seen these stories. I don't know that I've seen one that's quite this helpful before. That is so insistent on like, please let us service your every need, as you alluded to with the premise. It gives this basic idea a totally different kind of life. I love that. Anything else you want to say about this

sort of like escape to the house or maybe anything else in episode one? Well, here's something I want to say, a little detail we get in the pre-pan is the breast. The breast. on Carol's Rangerover. That is not a default thing you can get on a range rover. That is ignition interlock devices required after a DUI conviction, usually. So just a detail we get about Carol. This is something I also want to start tracking, which is alcohol consumption, because who among us would not wake up on the floor with a dripping whiskey bottle in episode two or guzzle a lot of Shibli or whatever it is that she is enjoying. That's another place where the budget is evident. They like actually went to Basque Country for that sequence for

their outside. I mean, why not, frankly? They're like, we saw Succession do it. We're just going to Globetrot if we want to. So enjoy your vacation. Vince Gilligan. You've earned it. But Carol had a drinking problem before this. And so that's just something to know about her character. Which is interesting. I mean, she has this drinking problem. Even separate from it, she's incredibly self-absorbed. Like, you know, it's called out in this episode in a way that honestly I'm a little on her side about about like maybe you don't ask the drug dealer about the heroin pitch.

Yes. That part makes sense. Yeah. But she is not someone who has a lot of questions or interest in other people other than Helen. You know, as you mentioned, Joe, like her us has been ripped from us or ripped from her. And all that she's left with is everything that's bouncing around in her head, this kind of contempt she has for the rest of. of the world, and yet she's the one trying to save the world. It's such a great juxtaposition for that character. I love that. I think that's another thing that I'm really interested in in terms

of like who Carol is. Something that they said on the official pod is she's the kind of person where even if she's enjoying something, she has to make it negative, right? This is something that Helen calls her out for where it's like, oh, poor you, how horror will be surrounded by adoring people who give you a lot of money, you know, she's like, book tours are hell. And she's like, oh, poor you. So like, you get to go on a book tour in 2025, ma'am. That doesn't happen. That's pretty good.

So I think that like this, this natural tendency she has to yuck her own yum, like that pre-exists this idea of this psychology of like, and you know, Vince Gilgan has talked about this in interviews where he's like, he has famously like one of the most genial people that, you know, if you've ever heard him talk, if you've ever talked to him. him or whatever it is. He's just got this very awshucks accent. You know, he is constantly giving credit away to other people. Like, he's just like a very, very genial guy. And in interviews, he's like, actually, I'm quite dark when I'm on my own. You know, so like this, this, this, uh, something that he said about this show is that he wanted, he was tired of writing bad guys. And in these divided

times, Rob, he wanted to write a good guy. So he sees Carol as a good guy. And I think we all do, maybe. Lakshmi. Chmee certainly doesn't. Sure. But also a good guy that, like, reflects his inner darkness, I guess. I don't know. That's interesting. Well, I mean, like a true author, he's reflected by all of these aspects.

Like, the genome part of him is Zosha, right? Like, there is a part of all of us that is, like, wanting to be helpful and compliant. And some of us service that part and some of us quiet that part. It just, like, depends on what you want to channel into. But that, to me, is kind of the fundamental tension of the show. I mean, we talked about this overarching, like just a way of thinking that has now descended upon the earth and is surrounding Carol and these other like survivors basically. And it's like that part of thinking is not human, but is also

maybe in the best interest of humans. And one thing I also kept coming back to with this show is like the pitch from these like infected people is not like drastically different from the pitch that we ultimately get to in a movie like a rival, for example, which is like we want to fundamentally alter something about the human experience in a way that in this moment you need to survive. And maybe that is true for us. Maybe it's not true for us, but we're just kind of pushed and pulled through them. And Carol, God knows, is push and pulled through them. What do you make of, what do you make of the increasing lore info that we get in episode two that Carol's negative outbursts have these global death toll ramifications.

I mean, real, like, you're not allowed to be angry at me? Like, again, just like a very insidious form of control that I think is echoed in, you know, creating, like bringing this woman who, as you said, is like the closest approximation of the love interest she almost created for her own novel. There's all of these aspects in which even if the intentions of this virus are, pure, which who's to say, the way in which it's going about it, it's incredibly manipulative. And incredibly manipulative in a way that it just like activates that like very allergic reaction in you as a human where you feel like your free will is being slowly stripped away.

Like I'm not allowed to yell. And yet another moment where I thought Ray Seorn was just incredible. It's like her first explosive outburst carols at Zosha in which she yells. And then she as a character has that moment of like, I don't know how these people will respond to this. Like she is waiting for like the pushback and then it's just a full on collapse. Yeah. In a way that again, like it's hard to watch these first two episodes and not feel like these characters even as they're being told we will give you anything you want. We will take you anywhere you want. We will provide for your every need, but you just feel the box being closed around them. Well, and there's the the seduction of that frictionless life. You can have anything

you want, but now you kind of belong to us. Or you're distracting, you know, talking about it's going to take us some time to figure out how to fix you. So there's a clock on that, right? Where Carol's like... That's something someone wants to hear. Right. Right.

And, you know, these other people are distracted by we can go at and we can go to the Guggenheim. We can go to Vegas. We can plow as many supermodels as we want. Like, you know, all this are like distracted. Shout out to the harrow. distracted by these pleasures that are provided to them by this benevolent quote-unquote force, that Carol's the only one, Carol and it seems like perhaps one other on the other side of the phone call,

like is committed to rejecting this, which I think is interesting. But the person that she calls, the one other English language speaker that she calls, he seems like he's like one more degree removed because he's not even like wanting to find common cause with the other survived unless he like doesn't believe thinks he's being lied to I don't know

that's interesting too that's an interesting little seed to plant you know how could you not in light of everything else that is happening not think you are being lied to in some way even if it's just by little bits of omission right like they don't want to tell Carol that she killed I say she killed. They killed millions of people through the specifics and logistics of their takeover and

her not being allowed to raise her voice a single time. I love that. I wanted to ask you about that because Zosha, all of them, but like Zosha's the most time we spend with someone who's like this. There is this almost, is there any sort of individualism left in the us? Is there something in Zosha that's different from the chick from TGI Friday's who's flying the plane. You know what I mean? He's very good at all her jobs.

There is the we. There is the, we all have access to the same expertise. We're all the best at everything that we do. We all have the muscle memory of what it means to perform open heart surgery or whatever it is. But is Zosia, I think this is a question that the show wants to ask,

is Zosia capable of like forming an attachment to Carol? Like, you know, like some of her reactions, there is the weak hair that you're okay. Carol sort of like blanket mantra, but is there room for a character like Zosha to have like an individual affinity for Carol? You know what I mean? That's something I'm interested to watch. I mean, can you have any choice at all if you are only working in service of humanity as a whole? Right.

Like I think the answer to that fundamentally like on a on a black and white level is no. And it's why someone like Carol would push so strongly. And not only is it good that Carol has all of the flaws that she has as a human being, but also very fitting that she's an American who's pushing back against this idea. It's like we are the most resistant to any kind of communal responsibility. And so the fact that she would give up everything that makes her, her, just would never happen in a million years for a character like that. I think as far as we've been presented so far, the answer would suggest no.

but because this is a TV show, I think maybe we'll see a little daylight there. And certainly, you know, I think if you are somebody like Kumba, for example, he sees something in Zosha. He sees many things in Zosha and that he would like to be in Zosha. But I don't know that he's entirely right about it. I love that. Anything else you want to mention specifically in episode two that happens that felt particularly striking to you?

I do have something, Joe. And we've actually already gotten an email. So I'm going to raid the inbox for an email we got from Sarah for. flagging Chekhov's nuclear football. Oh, yes. Pops up on Air Force One. Very good. You know, anything that could change the fate of the world, you want to have that kind

of heft to it. So I'm glad it has its moment. I'm glad we're introduced to it. But as we're talking about big global solutions, I kind of am with Sarah that I think this might come back into play. Are you really excited that Kuba is the one who has control of it? I mean, he at minimum seems to know the plot of Air Force One in and out. You know, so he's up on, I would say, current events, but at least on pop

culture. Some films. All right, anything else you want to mention we have a couple other sort of like categories you want to get to. I mean, just one really important thing, Joe. On hands and knees, he scrubbed, his sinually forearm stretched, Todd as he washed away, all trace of the day's fight. With a languid nod, Lukasia bade him to follow her to her cabin.

Little did this callow deckhand know that serving it as captain's pleasure might take on this sweet meaning. That's it. That's all I got for you. That's one for the listeners. Thank you, Rob. All right. Let's talk about most sort of Gilligan versus.

So Vince Gilligan directed the first two episodes. He's not directing every episode this season. So I wanted to call it like the Gilligan shot. But famously, if you were not watching Breaking Bad or Better Cross All, I'll let you know that like the cameras inside of those shows increasingly found unusual ways to shoot things up through the bottom of a glass table. Yes. You know, famously, et cetera, et cetera. So what is the most sort of like Gilliganverse-esque shot? in these first two episodes.

I'm torn between two. So I'm going to try to steal an extra one in here. The shot of Carol returning to the bar, seeing the glass, like the glasses of beer on the waitresses tray shaking. That perspective shot, I think, is like absolutely gorgeous stuff. It's so great in that moment as we're all trying to get our bearings together. With the audio of the singer, like, just breathing into the microphone. Grunting into the microphone.

Everyone kind of struggling to stay upright. But it's also hard not to. pick the camera attached to the crane as Carol drags a dude across the side of a building while trying to save him. Wonderful. Very good. Very good. Really wonderful. I love all that. I do think in terms of like pandemic outbreak stuff, I think the first infected, the fact that she's like in soft focus behind her fellow scientist and she's at the sort of sink that's full of water so you hear like that you see her shaking and hear the splashing. That's very good. But that's not, The one that is more Gillianest to me is episode two open, not opens on after some of the Zosia stuff, we get tight in on the whiskey dripping slowly out of the neck of the whiskey bottle as we pan out and then we see Carols on the floor.

And Helen's also on the floor. But like that just like we're in so close and tight on the neck of the bottle. And then we build out from there. It was just like very, he loves an extreme close up of an object. He does. He really does. But this show lends. itself to it so well. You know, obviously, like, someone would create the show that serves their

sensibilities, but in terms of Vince Gilligan's, like, directorial style and visual flair, the combination of the very precise choreography that's happening with all of these people working wordlessly in unison, like the Zosia handoff that opens episode two, you talked about it, of, you know, truck to motorbike, to plane, to landing, to getting in the shower as someone prepares your, it's like, all of that choreography, I think, is so in his bag. and at the same time the fact that this is a world where at any moment something could be left teetering on an edge because somebody went into a seizure it's like that object whatever got left whatever fell over

it's just begging for these kinds of shots I really agree with that I also in that in that the shower waiting for Zosia moment I found you know there's the opening of the makeup palette which is just like a beautiful I've never seen something like that but this like eyeshadow flower thing that's like incredible. But someone is like curling extent, the extensions were so insidious to me of like the attention to deal of like we need her hair to be longer in order to maximize appeal is just like.

Well, she's got to be ready for a romanticcy cover. Really tough. And she is. If it can't flow in the wind, is it even worth it? Hot pirate lady. God love it. Okay. Um, the, I will mention the shot that that Vince Gillian himself mentioned, which is the introduction of Ray Seahorn where we get he calls it a slider. I confess. I don't know exactly what that is and how it is different from a tracking shot. But you slide across the crowd and you get the back of her head. And he called it wanting to give her a movie star entrance. And Ray Seahorn on the podcast was like, but you don't see my face.

And he's like, yeah, that's how we meet Indiana Jones. He's like, that's a really cool thing to do. He's like, you just don't like, we wait to show them the face. And he's like, but you know that this is the person. And then Ray Sehorne was talking about how what she loves about that shot is, if you did not watch Better Call Saul, Racy Horn, incredible on that show. Her character Kim Waxler was like very famous

for this ponytail, the Kim Waxler ponytail. And so the fact that you like open on the back of her head and it's like, this ain't your Kim Waxler. The ponytail is gone. It's someone else here. The ponytail days are well and truly over show.

It's true. All right. Another category we're going to do is most grade. I'm changing the most grading smile. That's what I've decided to call it. Specifically because I originally called it most punchable smile, but my nomination is one of the kids. And so I just feel a little weird about saying punchable. So I would say small male child, helping with the key is my most grading smile. Do you have a nomination, Rob? See, I thought this was going to be unanimous. I thought there was not going to be any conflict at all. I think it has to be Davis Taffler, the Undersecretary of Agricultural Farm Production and Conservation. Like that that smile is plastered on in a way that demands to be punched. I love.

I love him. I think that's, I think they said that's a soap opera actor and like, it's perfect. It's like perfect. I love that. And then last but not least, and this is something that I, this kind of reminds me of when we were asking people during severance, like, what would you sever? I think this is a good prompt for our listeners. So please recall, licking the donut at gmail.com is where you can reach us. Rob, what would you do or where would you go if the hive mind was at your beck and call? Thank you for asking me this, Joe. You're welcome. It really sent me down a rabbit hole. Did it? Because I would say the premise of this show invites what to me I personally call, based on personal experience, the time crisis problem. Are you familiar with the arcade video game time crisis? It's a classic like you have a little plastic gun, you point at the screen, you shoot the guys kind of game. I once went to a video arcade where it was like they had unlocked all the games, all the games are free.

Yeah. And you would never believe how fast the life is drained out of that game when there are no stakes or consequence. for dying. It's like, you could sit and play this game for, you know, a solid 30 minutes pumping quarters into it. But as soon as you don't have to pump the quarters in, is any of it fun anymore? And I think there is part of that in a world like this where it's like, if there's no cost, does it mean anything? If there's no scarcity, does it feel special at all? And I think most importantly, if you are alone, you can't share it with someone. Does it register with you at all in any meaningful way? Yeah. Do you want an answer? I do have an answer. Sorry, that was a lot

No, no, no, no, I wasn't, I like the preamble a lot. And I think especially your point of, if you don't have someone to share it with, like, does it hit? Yeah. So because I don't have those things, my brain went to two places. One, should I try to go somewhere that I wouldn't ordinarily be able to go? Everywhere kind of felt like a version of the same thing. Like, yeah, I could go to a nicer beach than the beaches I've been to, but they would be disconcertingly empty and I would be a little distraught at that. So I came back to, you know, very tangible delights. I would have. a series of, you know, the infected's finest chefs with all of the culinary knowledge on the planet, prepare for me a series of meals that would draw not only from the best things I've ever eaten, as they try to do for Carol, but also the best things I've never tasted. And I think this is, this is kind of one of the problems with living in this world is like, to the AI of it all, they are trying to algorithmically engineer the woman of your dreams and the meal that you wanted, but it's like, I also need to invite a little bit of, like, ingenuity in this. Like, how do we shake up the formula to the point that I can be surprised by what they are doing. Well, here's my question.

So you're like, you know, gather the, the world class chefs. But if everyone has the same information, that's what I'm saying. Anyone can do it, right? Absolutely. Your assigned Zosia could cook this meal for you. Okay. Zosia has a mastery of every cuisine across the world. Like, you don't have to go very far. Okay. I knew your answer would be some sort of elaborate meal. I am who I am. I feel like in terms of, I think you're right about like, I don't necessarily want to go to an empty beach. But like, maybe I want to go to the top of Everest. Okay.

Like maybe that's where I want to go and just sort of like look at my works, you mighty and despair. Myself at the top of it and then call it a day. I don't know. Just somewhere I could never get myself. But Joe, you could go there right now if you wanted. How can I go to the top of it? of Everest? You can climb? I don't know that I can, but thank you so much for your faith in me. Can they like hella drop you to the top of Everest? Is that a thing that can happen? No, I think you,

I don't think you can. Maybe if you're like Elon Musk, you can, but I think you have to at least start at some sort of base camp and like hike your ass up there. Well, so how are you getting there in this world? Well, in this world, I do get hella dropped to the top of my word. You do have helladrop privileges. I am the Elon Musk. chilling thought. Or maybe, yeah, let's musk it up and go to space, you know? Why not? See, I have no interest in space. Keep me out of their place. Oh, absolutely not. Okay. I want a view. I want a view that I would not otherwise be able to obtain. I do like in this show, though, that we've already tied up the loose ends. Like, we've already

rooted out some of the theories of like, at least Zosha, you know, if we want to take her out or word, like they've already gotten to the people in the nuclear subs. They already got to the people at the International Space Station. It's like, that's where they started their kind of slow encroachment into human life. And so the fact that those people are already off the board, I don't have any reason to go to space, I don't think. I'm not looking for anything out there. Yeah, don't want to hang out with the pod people in space.

That's true. All right. So, looking at the donut at Gmail.com, if you have a better answer, bearing in mind that you have to do it alone and there's no earning it. There's no sweat equity placed into this. You're just given it. And so is it even enjoyable? in Rob's arcade game.

You know, I guess you could have the sweat equity if you could engineer it, right? Like maybe it's something where there's a long line to get the opportunity to do something difficult. Like Everest is a good example of like, I think there's like a lottery system or like a lot of hoops you have to jump through. So maybe you could cut the red tape

in a way that is satisfying to then try to do the hard thing on your own. Okay, so spend my time, rather than like trying to fix this, I'm like, oh, I have some time before they pod person me. Yes. I will train to

climb from base camp to the peak of Everest and I will cut the line of anyone else who pretty good because they're too busy doing whatever it is these pod people do Donald glazing themselves in a closet I don't know okay but this is where it's tempting is like I would like to not have to like go to the DMV ever again for the rest of my life you know it's like now we're back in severed territory you're just trying to sever yourself from experience okay so that is episodes one and two of pleuribus we'll be back every Friday uh you know God willing, the craigs don't rise to bring these episodes to you. We invite, it's not a, you know, there's a lot of answers.

It's not like a classic theory show, but we invite your questions, your theories, your expert. I know how infectious diseases are transmitted. POVs, your desires of where you would go and what you would do and what meal you would consume, et cetera, et cetera, at lickie the donutageable.com. That's licking the donutageeel.com. Just some of your best work, Joe. Thank you so much.

Not since John Ham's nipple rings. Anything else, Rob, before we go? I think that's about it. I mean, if I could draw attention to one more thing I love from these episodes. Before we veer off the romantacy path, which I fear we may never return to again, so if not now, when. The fact that her new book is the fourth book in the Winds of Wickrow trilogy, fucking great. Winds of Whizzo, Wicaro is... Wiccaro, sorry.

It's okay. Winds of O'Carrho is pretty excellent. But somebody dangling that check to write the fourth book in the trilogy. It's just wonderful. On the on the pluribus Reddit boards, which were hopping last night, someone made such a good George R. Martin joke where they were like talking about something about George R. Martin. And then someone replies, George R. Martin will do anything other than complete Wins of Wiccaro. So that was really good. Those Jets blogs aren't going to write themselves, Joe. It's really true. Okay. Thank you to Donnie Beecham for working on this episode. Thank you to Justin Sales always. Also, Christopher Ryan, our pal, has a chat with Vince Gilligan. I don't know if it's actually currently up on the watch feed or will be up on the watch feed.

I believe so. It's currently up. Okay, great. And doubled the Vince Gilligan. Ben Lindberg has an extensive interview on the Ringer TV YouTube channel in particular going through the plot hole or not hole of some of the deepest mysteries in Breaking Bad. So an incredible watch and listen. Yeah, a tajali deep dive we didn't deserve in 2025. Thank you so much, Ben. All right. So we'll be back next week and we'll see you soon. And stay safe and don't eat the licked donuts. Bye. This episode is brought to you by Netflix's remarkably bright creatures. What if a Pacific octopus held the key to a mystery that could heal your heart? Well, that's Tova's reality. An elderly widow working at an aquarium. Tova forms an unlikely friendship with their crumudgeonly, Marcellus, whose remarkable intelligence leads her to a life-changing discovery. Remarkably bright creatures is now playing, only on Netflix.