The Prestige TV Podcast - What Made 'Squid Game' Such a Hit?

Episode Date: October 4, 2021

Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson discuss how the South Korean thriller ‘Squid Game’ became a massive international phenomenon, what it means for Netflix, and why it worked so well. Host: Mallory Rubin Guest: Joanna Robinson Producer: Isaac Lee Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Sweet Green. The day doesn't ask for permission. Lunch window? Gone before you saw it coming. You deserve a break that actually satisfies. Sweet Green's new wraps have got you. Real ingredients? Zero shortcuts.

Everything you love in one hand. Think green goddess chicken. Garlic aoli. Crumbled bacon. Corn salsa. 40 grams of protein. Made to keep up with whatever comes next. New sweetgreen wraps hit different.

Order now at order. Sweetgreen.com. Morning decisions. How about a creamy mocha frappuccino drink? Or sweet vanilla? Smooth caramel, maybe. Or a white chocolate mocha. Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks Frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries. Hello and welcome to the prestige TV podcast here on the Ringer podcast network. I'm Mallory Rubin, co-host of the Ringerverse, head of editorial here at the Ringer. And heading to the island with me today to talk about the Netflix phenomenon. on Squid Game in her first podcast as an official member of the ringer squad.

It is ringer, senior staff writer, and my new ringerverse co-host, Joanna Robinson. Oh my gosh, so shiny and new. Hello, Mallory Rubin. Oh, boy. What a thrilling intro. What an intro. Be able to just say those words out loud at last. Long last. What a joy. We have so much to get to today. So we're just going to dive right into the Squid Game talk. But first, quick, spoiler warning and spoiler explanation before we begin. We're going to spend just the first couple minutes today on a spoiler-free recommendation for anyone who has not yet watched Squid Game, the South Korean survival game thriller,

written and directed by Huang Dong Kiuk, pitching you on one. why you should watch it. And then after that, we're going to full spoiler territory, talking about the entire season, which has been up for a couple weeks now, up since September 17th, all nine episodes available to binge on Netflix.

We will note again when we are entering that spoiler zone, but consider this an initial warning that the spoilers are coming. All right, spoiler-free pitch. If you are listening and haven't watched Squid Game, but you've heard the buzz, you've seen the big number one, on your Netflix home screen, and you're wondering if you should carve out time, maybe on a Saturday

to watch all nine episodes consecutively as I did this past weekend. A completely sane approach that Valerie time to watch. Normal way to spend a weekend day. I have to say, I enjoyed myself. Here's the brief sales pitch for why you should watch. Joanna, take it away. Oh, I will give you the same sales pitch that was given to me, which is that this is, yes, an ultra-violent show. a couple things were invoked when it was recommended to me. Old Boy was one of them. Battle Royale was another, just in terms of expectation of violence.

So that is something I want to tell people right off the bat. But the good thing, and this is also what was told to me when I watched the show, is that the first episode will tell you exactly what this show is. You don't have to wait until episode five to figure it out. You watch episode one, and you know what you're in for. And if you're in for episode one, you're in for the full ride. And I was hooked right away. I also watched it pretty fast, not all on a Saturday like Mal, but I watched it pretty quickly.

And it takes a lot of boxes, drama. If you like reality TV, like Survivor, Big Brother, there's some elements of that sort of woven in there. If you like popular genre dramas like lost, that's sort of all in there. But it's about a group, I think we can say, it's about a group of sort of down their luck people, people living on the edge who get an opportunity to play a very dangerous game for a lot of money. Does that sound about right to you? Absolutely. And, you know, join in on the conversation, right? That's part of the sales pitch, I think.

So many people are watching and talking about Squid Game right now, and there's nothing like a little shared experience, little shared passion. And right now this is what everyone's binging and talking about. And speaking of binging, in the spoiler-free way, I will just say here, it is, as might be apparent, based on the fact that I watched nine episodes in one day, just the consummate binge.

Like, it is propulsive. And while there are some trade-offs to the, the pace that we'll hit on, I think, later today. It is, undeniably, just electric and crackling, and you want to move right into the next episode as soon as the one that you're on concludes. The cast and the performances are fantastic. The set design is stunning. And the show just blends action and allegorical insights about society and human nature in a really gripping way. So pick up your card and dial in if you haven't yet. There's a lot of, yeah, I want to say it's also, it's early October.

There's a lot of cool iconography in this show. If you're looking for a Halloween costume, I feel like you could do worse than a pink boiler suit or a green track suit. So, you know, I'm expecting to see a lot. If we are doing Halloween, listen, mask built right into some of these costumes. I can see it working out. Great point. Yeah. So there you go. I love it. We are entering the spoiler zone.

One more warning. I repeat, we are entering the spoiler zone. Okay, let's flesh out those thoughts a little bit more. Just share some of our general big picture thoughts on the show so far without holding back on any of the plot specifics. We're going to hit in a minute on some of the stuff maybe that we didn't love as much. But I think broadly we both agree that this was a wonderfully exciting and compelling viewing experience. So what else, besides what you already cited, did you most love about it?

Squid game. I think it's interesting to veer over to one of the critiques. One of the critiques I saw from some... We can mix it all together. That's fine. From some Korean viewers was that they were like, well, this isn't terribly innovative. We've had a lot of similar stories over here. So we are not, you know, as surprised and taken by this as maybe some of the American audience is. And I was looking into some of those other things that were cited. And a big difference of this story is the opt-in aspect where it's not you're forced to play a terrible death, you know, guaranteeing game. It's that life is so bad that you'd prefer to take your chances on this than to go back to your ordinary life because they're given that chance at the end of episode one to just, like,

leave, and then they all decide to come back. And that is the most damning social critique baked into the premise of the story. And I think that that was just a really crucial element of the show that made me love it. Yeah. And we're not talking about just a handful of people, right? Our main character, Guy Hoon, is player 456, right? Because that's how many players are there to begin this game. Now, we quickly shrink that number and then continue to shrink it game after game.

But we also learn over the course of the season that this is not the first squid game, and it surely won't be the last. This has happened time and time again. There's binder after binder, list after lists. So the volume of participants is vast, and that I think really heightens what you're saying and how totally unmooring that is and how much that sharpens the critique.

And I think one of the things that I was really struck by and really loved is the setting for that critique. You know, you already mentioned a few things like Survivor and Lost. Well, where do those take place? Islands. What is the setting for the game? It's an island. And islands are settings, I think, for so many tales,

whether it's the ones we already mentioned, Lord of the Flies, certainly an apt story to cite here. Because what is stripped away ultimately? Social norms, the rhythm of a day, the presence of your loved ones, the judgment of the people whose opinions you value. That ultimately matters so much more than what is there, than what is present in that setting.

Like so many of the stories that are meant to reveal something about, human nature. It's not about really where they are as much as where they aren't. And I really loved that part of it. That's a really good point. And to invoke Lord of the Flies, like in the same breath as Survivor, you've got these alliances that are formed in this game. You've got the worst and best of humanity come through in these like incredibly high stakes. This is why we love watching Survivor, right? Because like the worst, worst angles of people come out, but then also sometimes the best And when there is that humanity does shine through, it's all the more hard one. And so I just love that aspect of this show because you've got great human drama, great

mixed bag of characters and archetypes, archetypes we often see in reality shows, but in this very, very different setting. Yeah, I thought it was fantastic. I think on the setting front, too, the arena, the dollhouse aspect of it, I loved all of that, too, because it really heightens the feeling that the players are chess pieces, which is literalized later in the bridge game when the pieces are knocked off the mini board that's there to show the VIPs exactly where we are, like, keeps score basically for the death count.

The jazz puppet setup puts a really fine point on this too, you know, dance for us, sing for us, like perform for our entertainment. and this whole farce of an equal chance that we hear from El Nomm, who will talk about more over the course of the episode, Player 1, right, ultimately the host of it all, the frontman as well, like the farce that this is here and exists to provide an equal chance away from an unfeeling society. It's just an excuse to treat people like play things.

And the other thing that I just want to mention about the setting, This is one of the most devastating moments for me as a viewer. When you realize later on toward the end of the season, the games were painted on the wall the whole time. The clues are all around them, and they're behind the beds, they're behind these pieces of metal that they'll ultimately have to use as fortresses

and to try to protect themselves from each other, and they didn't know that they were there. And then you go back to prior episodes, you're like, were they there? And you can see these little glimpses throughout, little crevices and cracks. It's just the anguish of that, and the cruelty of that,

I found quite crushing. Well, speaking also of the set design, Netflix has released a few behind the scenes sort of making ofs that are really fun to watch. And, like, you know, they built all these very elaborate sets. And I think the build-out is a big part of what makes this so strong because you could have CGed a lot of stuff that they didn't CG. They did it practical.

And I think it looks incredible, especially like the back alleyway set that they built that was so detailed. and a lot of the actors described it as sort of being very disorienting because it did look so similar to real places that they were familiar with. You know what I mean? So the attention to detail on that set design. And that goes back to that iconography. There's so much in the corners to capture your eye.

There's these shapes and recurring colors and all of this sort of stuff that I find people really latch on to that. You and I have spent a million hours of our lives talking about thrones. But I think one part of that gets people that makes the throne. fandom so easy to latch onto or the Harry Potter fandom is, you know, you've got houses, you've got, you know, symbols, you've got things that you can latch onto. And it's good game has that in spades. It's amazing. Yeah, that's another great point. And I think whether you are like in one of those rooms or one of the sets or back out in the regular world, having a conversation with a family member at a birthday dinner or at the market, part of the way that the

characters move about the sets and move about the world. It gets back to that point about pace and how propulsive this season feels, which I think we both felt just like texting about the show, stands out in notable contrast to many other Netflix binges where you're like, oh, okay, I enjoyed that. But did we need those two and a half episodes maybe? And there's really no wasted time or space here, which I think has a downside to it, which we'll circle back to in a minute, but broadly really fuels that sense that you're in the games with the participants. And then I think to the matter of like the games themselves, that visceral horror of what you're witnessing, but also the poignancy of the themes and the emotional journeys and

the character arcs, like the choice to use children's games. as the backdrop for that really heightens everything because it brings to the forge the wrongness of it, right? Like the total fall from innocence, the road that so many of the characters had to travel or have traveled to get there for me. And the reminders are all around them of a simpler, pure time in their lives where everything was still ahead of them. You know, especially when it comes down to two men playing a game that they literally played as children. Right. And then they have to reflect on all the steps and missteps that took them to this spot in their lives. You know, I think that is a really beautiful thing.

And I completely agree with you. Pretty much any Netflix show I watch, there's usually like, yeah, two to three episodes of fat that I would happily trim off of them that this show doesn't have. One of the runtimes on one of the episodes, I think, is closer to 30 minutes. So I think it did one of those like flexes that can be so liberating in a streaming show where it's like, we only have 30 minutes of story for this week's episode. so that's what we're going to do, you know? Yeah, absolutely. And one other thing I want to throw out here while we're running through the things we loved,

the role that the prize money played. Because beyond just the survival aspect of all six of the games and the need to survive between the games, right? The brutality that breaks out overnight, for example, between the actual contests. The deployment of the prize money was really impactful, I thought, because even though it's not true

for all of the characters and is crucially, definitively, not true for some of them, which is meaningful. The participants are broadly incentivized to root against their fellow players, even as they align with them. There's this great dissonance at play between the teamwork, the alliance building,

and the ever-present reality that if someone else is there, it means you might not be. And part of that, part of that, it's a social critique, it's an economic critique. Part of that comes from the game itself of course, the economic hardships that the participants have faced in order to wind up in that

circumstance in the first place. But part of it comes from the fact that the death of one of your allies, it's ultimately a profit driver, right? The money isn't a boon. It's a poison. And eventually, of course, our main character, Gihon, doesn't want to touch it because despite working toward it the entire time, that clarity comes in the most painful fashion possible. Well, I think it's true for most of the characters, the characters that we're rooting for, there is no victory. There's survival, but any victory comes with some sort of devastating loss or carnage around you, and you're in trauma mode this whole time.

And I think to your point about the money, I think one of the most chilling moments is right before that bigger sort of riot breaks out after they're handing out the food and there's the accusations and then there's a death. you just see the money drop into, you know, like, this is the worth of this one life is boiled down to this amount of money. And that's just like a chilling commodification of a human life. It's really upsetting. But, you know, we should say the director, he wrote and directed every episode, that he is

best known for comedies. And so, like, as we're describing this, like, horrible drama and all of this violence and all this sort of stuff, there is a lightness. that runs through it because of some comedic elements, just absurdism and comedic elements, you know, that run through it. Well, where is the cost of that one life, which is netting out to, in essence, $100,000 U.S. dollars, where is it going?

It's going into this cartoonish, massive piggy bank hanging above everybody so that they cannot escape the simultaneous draw and revulsion. It's true. And like the way the camera lingers on their faces as they look up, you know what I mean? As they look up or as they look up, or as they look at the leaderboard or whatever, you know, and just sort of like, and you get

the sinking feeling and you want to tell them to all band together. You're like, you can, if you all work together, this is how I watch Succession, by the way. If you all just work together, you can make it through. Oh, boy. Can we talk about the Americans really quickly? Please. Because this is the one element, I mean, in terms of performance, this is the one sort of sort of sore note of the show, which is that the Americans are really poorly acted.

I don't mind the sort of fat cat stereotype that's happening here because I was like, well, how does any Russian feel watching an American feel movie with Russian mobsters? Like, we are due to this sort of like broad stereotype. I just found those, I didn't understand what was going on with those performances, but that was a real moment for me. What else while we're on the topic, what else maybe didn't work as well for you?

I think you and I talked about this a little bit how like we get the glimpse behind a few of the characters in the first two episodes. We get some backstories for like Ali and a couple other characters, but that maybe it's my lost rewatch, a recent lost rewatch talking. I would have loved more

background on more of the characters. I would love to see more of those characters in their day-to-day lives and how they got here. I think that would have gotten even more wrapped up in the stakes and the tragedy and the drama. Because usually when they tell, when we see stories like that on

television, there is an inflexion. point, there's a place where a person went wrong or, you know, took a wrong step, and we can then feel the tragedy of the loss of their life because it didn't always have to be that way, you know. Yes, absolutely. I love a lost flashback. I mean, they could have even used the wooching sound, and I would have been there for it. So, you know. I did wonder, my husband and I were watching this together on Saturday and after the first episode, right as we were starting the second, he was like, I wonder if this will be structured in a lost fashion where every episode centers around. learning more about a specific character.

And that would have been really interesting. But that, yeah, I think that's my, that was the one thing that for me, I left the season as much as I enjoyed it, wanting more of two. And this is what I meant earlier about the inverse of the really scintillating pace. You don't get to pause

to learn all of the things you might want to learn. And that's ultimately, I think, a credit to the show in terms of structure and flow. And I think that maybe we can learn more of this stuff in the future in spinoffs or sequels or prequels, perhaps. But, you know, for example, when Junho, the cop, asks his brother, the frontman, why? Like with his final breath, why? The answer as well. And we don't get to. So maybe we will in the future. And I would love to tune back in to find out. But that's the kind of thing that is ultimately missing here because you've got to

move on to the next piece of the action. And it might be, you know, what's interesting is that it doesn't sound to me like Director Huang, like, set this up to be a multi-season story. He sort of said when folks have asked him about a season two, he's like, well, if I do it, I'm definitely not writing every episode and directing every episode again. That's not sustainable. So it doesn't seem like he has a long-term plan. But certainly you could see a story where, like, the frontman's decision to kill his brother

weighs on him to a point that cracks in that allows the whole thing to crack open from the inside, but that would have to be a long game. And I did really love the way that the season ended because when I went, I think I told you this already, but when I went into the finale, I was really ready for this to all wrap up. I was like, we are headed towards a wrap up and I am happy to

leave it there. And then it ended in a way where I'm like, I would be interested to see where this goes next. I don't have to see it. Like, I would be completely fine if this was just a one season contained story. And it is such like a sort of dazzling smash hit that I always get very nervous about a season two, you know, measuring

up to the surprise of the season one. But I'm not, it's not like the ending of a big little lies or something where I'm like, no, you did it. You finished it. We don't need more sort of thing. So yeah. Yeah. And I'll say as well that even though I'm sitting here thinking,

oh, I'd love to know X, Y, and Z about all of these characters, including, for example, all of the soldiers, the managers, like how did they wind up there? Why? What is the story for everyone who has a circle, a triangle, or square on their mask. I will say despite yearning for that, I'm actually glad the story didn't focus on them.

I think it's way more interesting, ultimately, to focus on, you know, to return to Lord of the Flies, like that Lord of the Fliesian descent of a character that we begin the season rooting for, like Songwu, and then have to watch an absolute despair as we see the choices that he is willing to make. and the things that he is willing to do to move ahead. I have to say, I was out on Songmu, the Honeycone game.

I was out from, I was like, this guy. Yeah, it's an early indicator. No, no. A pal thing might go. He set his pal up. No, no. He could have stopped this. Everyone could have to believe in the power of lifelong friendship, I guess, you know?

But Junho is an interesting question, the cop, because because his death is so, you're just sort of like, oh, that's it? you know, about his death, which is a fine way for a character to die. But then I start to question, okay, why is he here in the first place? And I think he's a great element of the show because we get to sort of scurry around the corners of this gameplay with a character that we are, you know, invested in. And we get to see what the pink boiler suit folks are up to, it's a really good way to sort of crack into that side of the story. Yes. But yeah, I did want a little bit more from that brother-to-brother showdown. And we talked about, I don't see the maybe the files did send.

We don't know, ultimately. Maybe they made their way out into the world, you know, to his, I'll say not concerned enough, boss. No. And I was not feeling great about the reception on that phone. So I don't know, but we'll see. How did that phone still have a charge? That's actually the one and only thing I can't let go of.

But the idea of, this is something I do want to talk about. A lot of the major deaths feel connected to the kids. character and choice. That's what you want to see in a gameplay death of a main character, is that it should be rooted in their story in some way, right? So, like, Ali has to do with, like, his trusting nature. It's devastating. But, like, you know, that death felt tied into that.

And then for Duxu and Mignyue, who are, like, are sort of, like, villainous, would-be lover sort of thing, their death feels really tied into their journey as well, right? And this brings me to my biggest sticking point, which I think this is a good place to talk about, which is the death of Sayyuk, who is like one of my favorite characters. And I feel like her death, you know, I'm going to toss a little light fridging into the mix here because like she dies. It doesn't feel connected to her character. It's like, yes, a crazy random happenstance of a glass shard getting you is a way that a character could die in a story like this. But ultimately, like, how is her death rooted in her character?

It's not, it's rooted in showing us the villainy of one character and the devastation of another character to happen to be two male characters. There's so few women characters in this show. There's only really two that I feel like you need to be really careful in the execution of those stories. And this is one element. When I saw it coming, I was like, this is not what I wanted. What I wanted is all three of them to be in the final game. This is my fanfic. Which is like, Gihun, like, sacrifices himself for her.

Because she, of all of them, she is the one with like the very most. altruistic motivation to like save her brother and all this sort of stuff like that. So like if our hero who is on a real journey sacrifices himself for her, then that's the loss that feels like a win. You know, and that's a story that I really love is when a character loses, but ultimately there's a moral victory. And I wanted her to take the whole thing. That's what I wanted. But I didn't, my champ didn't make it to the final bracket. So that's it. That happens. I think also we didn't need the additional motivation and additional example of a horrific act from our two finalists at that point. Like, their respective standings were well established. So yeah, that was, that was tough.

Before we move on to our seasons of proletives, a minute here on the Netflix of it all. As mentioned earlier, this quickly rose to number one on the platform. reportedly, and I'll say this along with the caveat that, who knows, with streaming numbers, like, ever, right? But reportedly, on track to become Netflix's most viewed program of all time, which is notable. It's wild. Anything of note here from your perspective as a television expert on Netflix's global strategy? Well, as a television expert, so within the last year or two, Bella Biharia, who was the, she's now the head of global TV, but she recently ran more like local interests across Europe, Middle East, etc. I talked to her around my old gig.

I talked to her around the explosion of Bridgeton, and she was talking about K-dramas in particular, had this massive peak, actually in COVID, but just in general. They've just seen massive, massive interest in K-drama. I think it's part of what's being called, like, a new Korean wave that is connected to, like, BTS and Parasite and K-pop, everything, all of that stuff. And she was like, the hit of those K-dramas, let us know that something as wildly romantic as Bridgeton might have a chance, because people are really into Korean dramas. And I just, I think it's really interesting how they, way more than any other streamer, have really invested in this global strategy.

I've heard from some people, I don't know if yours does this, but some people have told me that when they open on an international show or film, the English dub version immediately default starts playing, which I didn't know was a thing, but apparently that happens on some people's accounts. No, not for me.

And it happened for me with something I watched after Squid Game. I tried to watch Alice in Borderland, which is a Japanese show, that started playing in English for me. And I was like, no, no, I prefer subtitles personally. we can get it to that in a second. But like for some reason, that language barrier,

which is not a deterrent to me, but is deterrent for some people, Netflix has erased that with some of these auto-play dubbing options, which I think is really interesting. I don't know. What do you think? You know, you mentioned the translation. I think that that's worth chatting about for a minute here because I think this has popped up in many different places.

Isaac Lee, our wonderful producer for today's episode, mentioned to us that he had heard this from some of his friends as well. There's a TikTok and Twitter thread from at YM Meyer making the rounds that has drawn a lot of attentions and sparked a lot of conversation. And it begins the first tweet in the thread is,

quote, not to sound snobby, but I'm fluent in Korean and I watch Squid Game with English subtitles. And if you don't understand Korean, you didn't really watch the same show. Translation was so bad. The dialogue was written so well and zero of it was preserved.

I would really encourage everyone to check out that thread. there are some video and audio examples to help everybody see the distinction in the translation. And there are some really interesting insights in the replies as well, including for people who have worked on translation teams. So this is fascinating because, of course, you know, I have no idea when I'm watching and reading the subtitles that that is not maybe a strong translation. I've heard this thing was true. I talked to one of my friends who's fluent in French. She said the same was true for Le Bureau.

Excuse my French pronunciation there. There was another massive international hit for Netflix, but that those subtitles were also lacking. And I think what came through in that thread you mentioned is that the character of Mignon especially suffered in the translation of her subtitles. The one that sticks out to me most is there's this line where she's trying to pitch herself

to be someone's teammate. She says, I'm not smart, but I can do what it takes or whatever. And what she actually said was, like, I am smart. I just never got the chance to be educated, which is just like a huge difference and a huge element of that social critique of the wealth gap, the massive wealth gap in South Korea and the limitations that are put on certain people. And I just, I thought that was like a really massive miss on the part of the subtitles and translation.

But you overall, I prefer subtitles because I like to hear the after themselves speak. And especially with Korean vowel institution, I think especially when you meet, like, Gihun in the first episode, and he's got that, like, whining, comedy whining thing down that is so perfect and has to do with, like, extension of vowels. And I would miss that in a dub, I think. So it's hard to know what the right way is. Yeah, I certainly prefer to watch with subtitles

and see the original performances, whether it's Squid Game Here or, thinking of a few things I've watched recently. Lupin, watching that in French or dark, watching that in German. And, you know, there have been so many wonderful, rich, nuanced stories from all across the world that we've gotten to see recently, Beartown. You know, the list is long. You know, you mentioned Alice in Borderland. That's something that my husband recently watched and loved, and I was catching certain scenes.

I was like, man, I have to go back and watch this. Like, it's, that's, that's, that's. The cord-cutting, streaming peak TV era, you know, one of the great gifts and great things about being a viewer right now is how many different things we all have the chance to see and experience. It's interesting, though, when it comes to the sub or dub question, which is actually a poll that I put up on Twitter, and most people who follow me prefer subtitles, but that's not necessarily indicative of the whole. But, like, so many people to screen their watches these days, do you know what I mean? Or just background watch something? And so if you're watching something with subtitles, you actually have to sit down and focus on it. And I love that.

Me too. But for some people, and especially even people who cover TV for a living because there's so much content, they're like, I don't have time to actively watch everything. But for all the errors and translations, and I hope that maybe Netflix can see this reaction and step up their subtitling game or even fix the squid game subtitles so that they're better. But overall, I would recommend a subtitle watch over a dub watch. But however you want to watch it, I'm not going to, like I judge you, I promise. Anything else before we get to our season awards, our Rapid Fire Awards here? I think that said, I mean, I think I do want to just mention really quickly that, according to Variety, Netflix has committed a $500 million spend in Korea this year.

So this is not the last we will see of their investment. And I'm excited to see what else we get. Me too. Me too. Okay. In our final few minutes here, we're going to run through a handful of season superlatives. First, favorite episode. I saw your answer. Usually when I do something like this and someone gives an answer, I try to pick a different answer, but I couldn't. So I put the same as you, which is episode six, which is the marble game. Just, I'm on record as just really liking two people talking, and it's just like several vignettes of two people having these long conversations. And I just, ugh, I loved. I loved that episode. Me too.

Harrowing. Harrowing. Good. It is absolutely harrowing. I think also even though, you know, you sense the twist coming, that the partners will ultimately have to go against each other, not actually remain aligned. I think from the moment that they start pairing up and you see that people are drawn to each other by some burgeoning trust or affection.

Or the husband and wife. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. The husband and wife. I mean, it's just dread, right, from the moment they start pairing off. But even so, it lands with such force and anguish throughout the entire episode. Like, I also thought, in hindsight, the setup inside of the episode for the ultimate Il-Nam reveal is really strong. And I think we'll be extra rewarding to revisit on a rewatch, you know, the way that he manipulates and deceives Gihun, you know, not the fact that we don't see him actually get eliminated at the end, all of those little clues.

You mentioned the married couple. Very tough, very, very bleak. Sebyuk and Ji Young, they're bonding. Their entire sequence almost was a conversation to your point. And then the ultimate sacrifice with the Marvel job, I just thought that was really, really, really crushing. And then, of course, everything with Sangwu and Ali, the deception, the trust that spawned from this unlikely friendship in hell

that then ultimately leads to this dissent just are unbelievably intense and painful episode. Well, and you mentioned the twist, and I think we want to say this really quickly. I think you and I had a similar experience where we both and your partner watch too much TV, and so it's kind of hard to twist us,

you know, and it's kind of hard to drop a surprise on us. And for me, for Ilnam especially, I was reminded a lot of fairy tales where there's like an old crone, and if the hero's nice to the old crone, she turns into a beautiful enchantress. You'll remember that,

beast and being the beast fails his test, and that's how he gets cursed to be a beast in the first place. Anyway, you're always nice to her, because she is probably an enchantress in disguise. And so when our, when Kiyun was nice to Il-Nama, I was like, I feel like this is what's happening here. And it was. And the brother reveal, like all these twists, but none of those twists being telegraphed, at least to people who watch a lot of TV or consume a lot of stories, I think really took away from the power of the dread. You talk about like suspense, versus surprise. It's a surprise.

It's a surprise. It's a surprise, but there is suspense and there's dread. And I think that suspense and dread is sort of permeates everything. Agreed. Agreed. Our next category is favorite character. And since we're talking about Player 1, the old man, I'll just go first here and say that despite everything, he was my favorite character. I don't, I'm still processing this.

What do you mean my favorite in that context then, Mal? then, Mal. So it's not because of the ultimate reveal, but I think because of everything that came before. And I will be curious to see if my feelings on this change, the more I sit with it, again, it's very early on Monday. I finished watching this very late on Saturday. I've had very little time to ultimately process it, but I just was so drawn to him as a figure in the story, like, throughout. I was really invested not only in his well-being or the way that his true nature and true role would reveal itself and impact other people, but that specifically, the impact that he had on other characters and other people. And I think ultimately the fact that I felt that way about him, even as, you know, when we get that sequence with him as the host with his golden mask on,

Adam, my husband was like, that's an old-looking hand. That he's like, that's an old hand. That's him. I'm telling you. And I was like, all right, fuck. Like, okay, I guess you're right. That is an old hand. So even that, though, just, you know, to your point from a minute ago,

it just makes it more impressive to me that it didn't take away from the experience, like knowing that we were going to get that reveal in time. It just kind of all came together in this brew of intrigue. So he was my favorite. What about you? I feel like my answer is pretty basic and I feel guilty about that. Guy Hun, who is our, you know, a sensible hero. Great book.

I love, you know me, Mal. You love a hero's journey. Your listeners may not. I love a character on an arc, on a move, on a real move. And like, from where he starts to where he finishes, and I'm not just talking about his hair color, is like a big journey for this character. And Li Chung-Jay, who plays him, is this massive, like a big star. And they, by the way, extremely handsome.

I thought he was handsome in the show, much more glam and handsome in, like, nice photo shoots. And so they really roughed him up for this. I just loved him. I loved him. I found him the most watchable. So that's my guy. Great pick. All right.

Despite everything we just said about some of the twists being forecast, telegraphed, predictable, whatever the case may be. It had to be the brother. It had to be a mystery who was under the mask. And there was no one left. That was an unbelievable mask, by the way. Great costume design. Halloween, TikTok, it's coming up. Get your paper-mish skills ready.

I will be spending Halloween as I always do at home on my couch in pajamas, eating all of the candy that I theoretically bought for neighborhood children. Aspirational, Mal, truly aspirational, living a life. Top twist. Yeah. Okay, I'm going to give it, because I wouldn't call any of the major twist a twist as far as I'm concerned. For me, it was the reveal of the professional glassmaker on the glass bridge. That was a real moment for me where he was like, I work in the glass factory.

And even like the fat cats in the booth are like, wait, was that in the paperwork? Did we miss that? I loved that. I love that he was like the tempered glass makes a different sound. That was a big moment. I was pretty into it. I liked that too because of what it reveals about the way that they're, you know, reading these reports to presumably study for their bets, like just gambling sharps,

crunching game tape. Real creeps. Real creeps. Sick. How about you, Mel? My pick is something that we've mentioned a couple times there. the players voting to leave much earlier in the season than I anticipated. Now, as soon as we see the consent form clause about how that exact outcome can unfold, if a majority agrees, you know that

there's going to be a crucial moment in the story where that happens. But I would have bet quite a bit that that would have come late in the season and like a climactic moment. So I was genuinely surprised to see that happen so early. And I really liked that because not only, was I impressed by the boldness and upending my expectations about the sequence of events? I think it gave us a great opportunity to see these really searing character moments

back in the outside world, outside of the arena, right? You get to see Songwu watching his mother. You get to see Guy Hoon and the man who at that point in time he only knows as player one, sharing a meal, sharing a drink, etc., etc. And of course, crucially,

and necessitates everyone opting back in. Like, they all make the call in the first place, right? They dial in, but they don't know the stakes until a red, light, green light. And so to see them choose to return is completely changes the entire experience and feel of the rest of the show. So that's my pick. It's devastating, honestly.

And then they just, the way they get back in those vans and just like embrace the gassing, except for my babe, save youok, you know, they're just like, yeah, go ahead, gas me. Fine. Yeah. Should we get to most heart-wrenching death? Speaking of devastating. It's got to be the glass in the abdomen for me because I think that I was still holding out hope. Even when I saw her in the bathroom and it was just a lot of blood. And even when she was like gray-lipped, I was like, maybe.

But yeah, I was devastated for internal and external reasons, like emotionally devastated, but also I just, yeah, I wanted more for the end of that character. I'm glad her brother got looked after. but still, I wanted a little bit more for her. That was deeply distressing. Deeply distressing. Speaking of, my pick is Ali's death. For all the reasons that we already talked about when discussing episode six,

just gut-wrenching, utterly harrowing. I think this death and the choices that led to it for me clarified more than any other moment in the show, actually, like that the real evil, it's not just the forces around you. It could be within, right, to again channel the essence of Lord of the Flies here. The nominal villains justify their deeds, but so do the participants in many cases. And this is one of them.

And I think it's the most painful because it's someone that, I guess, you know, we've already discovered that maybe we felt slightly differently about this, but someone I at least, and our hero in the show, initially wanted to root for and trust him. And, you know, the treachery of someone close to you hurts more than the treachery of someone you were wary from of the start. No, I mean, I was all was old for him initially. It was his idea to leave the game. He had glasses. I trust met in glasses. Like, I was rooting for him. But he lost the glasses. He changed his hair. He started saying women and old people should not be on his team. Like, I was like, this is our villain. S&U grad. Isaac is reminding us. And that was a big element of the show that they kept like mentioning his education, all that sort of stuff like that. So yes, his achievement. All these achievements. Speaking of the Honeycone game. Yes.

The last superlative here is the most deranged game. And I'm going to give it to the Honeycomb and here's why. I'm shocked by this pick. I have to say. Okay. I can't wait for you or why. The Glass Bridge has a similar element. But the Honeycomb really, this lie that everyone has a fair chance.

Okay. In theory that's true with Red Light Greenlight or in theory that's true with Tug of War because you make choices about your team. In theories with marbles. But like with Honeycomb, you get the umbrella. Like, are you kidding me? Like, you don't have the fair chance. And word not, for the lick method, so many people would have died that day.

So much licking. Honeycomb, deranged, deranged. What do you think? My pick is, boy, I had a hard time with this one because they're all deranged, of course. I ultimately went with Game 5, the Glass Bridge, because too much relies on chance, not enough relies on skill or the actual rules of the game. Also, the post. Most win explosion.

I think, relatively speaking, of course, inside of this universe, foul play. Like, they have won. They should not then be subjected to potentially lethal glass shards. Also, I think for that game, the VIP's watching live just heightened the horrific nature of it all. I will say I also considered game four here marbles because having to turn on the person you had trusted in, just very grim. I think game one red light, green light is eligible here too for consideration because they don't know the stakes at that point. Right. And so that's like a huge point of distinction. But ultimately, I'm going with Glassbridge. Before we wrap today, I have to ask you. Yeah. If you were designing the games, what would you choose from your childhood? Oh, my God. What a great question that I had no preparation for. I think you would have to be some sort of diabolical game of pickup sticks. Though I don't know exactly how I would bring it.

Pickup sticks. They just explode if you... You get, like, lampoon with a giant pickup stick if you don't. I don't know. Our producer's giving us a face right now, but listen, isn't deranged the prompt? No? Okay. I was like, what would you pick?

What game from your childhood? I would probably go seven up. Why? Heads up, seven up? Yeah, because you can... There's, like, betrayal involved. It would be against each other, right? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I like that. I think I would do, like, Capture the flag, I think. I still love Capture the flag. Capture the flag is really fun. Plenty of opportunity for some really foul.

I have no idea why Pickup Six. I have no idea why Pickup Six came to me if only, I think it's just because I was terrible at it. So I'm like, what game would I be most nervous to play if my life was on the line? And I think it's that one. Anyway. I love it. Okay.

We have tapped our toes and shouted hooray. So that's a wrap on today's episode. Joanna and I would like to thank Isaac Lee for producing today's episode and for assisting us with so much helpful research. Remember, follow the Prestige TV podcast on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast and stay tuned to the feed. Multiple check-ins coming every week on all your favorite prestige TV shows. Until next time, enjoy the games.