The Prestige TV Podcast - What Makes ‘The Great’ So ... Great?

Episode Date: November 25, 2021

Joanna Robinson and Chris Ryan break down their thoughts and feelings about why 'The Great' is such an underrated show and discuss the first couple of episodes of the second season, which just dropped on Hulu. Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Chris Ryan Associate Producer: Sasha Ashall Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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that can burn and damage your skin. The sun is relentless, but so is our gear. Level up your summer at Columbia.com to spend more time outside and less time slathering on alolotion. You're welcome. Columbia, engineered for whatever. Welcome to the Prestige TV pod, special Thanksgiving edition. I'm Joanna Robinson, joining me at this feast. A giant of the podcasting industry.

It's Chris Ryan. Hi, hi, Chris. Joanna, there's so many more truffles here than I expect. Listen, you know, I'm fancy, I'm royal, I'm Russian, we're here, we're here to enjoy this. If you are listening to us on Thanksgiving proper, I am honored. You must really hate your family. I'm delighted you've decided to escape your family and come chill with us and some Russian royals. We're here to talk about the Hulu series, The Great, which dropped its entire second season.

So if you really want to take time away from your family, that is there for you, the first and second season, ready for you to watch. we're going to get into like the first couple episodes that we've watched a season two eventually. But first what we're going to do if you've not seen a single second of this show is we're going to make our case, Chris, right? As to why this is a show you should be watching. Because my sense is that it was a pretty, pretty popular pandemic watch, but not as popular as I think it deserves. So, yeah. It's interesting that this is coming out at Thanksgiving because if I had to call it a great anything, I would call it excessive. It's stuffed.

Lavish. It's not exactly like a palate cleanser if you've just gotten done eating a ton of turkey. Oh, yeah. No, you're going to see a lot of swilling of vodka and other delicacies that maybe. Yeah, but let's start at the very beginning. So before we get into like any details, details, though it's history, allegedly. Sure. So how a spoiler can we get?

But what's your case for why people should watch The Great? It's just a great royal period piece where people call each other C-words. all the time. You know, I think it's got the raunchy comedy that you might associate with an Armando

Ianucci show, but this is obviously written by Tony McNamara, who also wrote the favorite. And it's got this sort of thousand jokes per page, absolutely like, bilious attitude towards each other.

And there's just an incredible density to the writing and to the delivery of lines and to just the actual, like, amount of action going on. And people are walking in and out of rooms and making deals and double-crossing each other.

But at the heart of it, it is this bizarre, fucked up love story, which actually does come through in a way that sometimes in Ianucci shows and sometimes in these really, really dark comedies, you do get to the center of it. And you're like, oh, there's nothing here. I'm completely empty here. And this isn't that. This has this sort of demented natural-born killers kind of love story in the of it. So we're in the 18th century, we're in Russia. We're talking about Catherine the Great,

in a very impressive political figure, played by L. Fanning as a young woman who's come to court, and Nicholas Holt as her just impossible, awful husband, Emperor Peter III. Eventually, history tells us Catherine will overthrow Peter and take the throne and rule for a very long time. But this is the very beginning of their courtship to season one and then season two, more things happen. In that sort of young royal come-to-court vibe, it feels very Maria Antoinette, Sophia Coppola,

to try to make this something that could feel musty and dusty and old feel very vital and young and fresh. It's not completely anachronistic the way that Dickinson is, do you know, it's not all the way over into that territory, but in its language I think is where it really

tries to keep things fresh with sea bombs and F-bombs and all sorts of other thing. But I love this show. I was really surprised and delighted by it. Of course, I loved the favorite. I thought that was an incredible film. But this, just being in this world, the machinations of this court, the palace intrigue, the political nonsense. If you like the crown, sure, you might like the show. But if you like Succession, I feel like you really like this show, or you mentioned Yanucci, of course, like Veep and the other great political comedies that he did.

It's a political comedy. But as to say, it's also like a Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf line in winter sort of awful love story at the same time. So, yeah, it's an incredible film with some incredible performances at the center of it. We're going to get into all of it in detail. But if you haven't watched it, that's our case for, go watch it. Yeah. It's succession with people wearing corsets. Yeah, great.

Who could ask for anything more? And amazing wigs and all the rest. And you'll learn a lot of history, and then you'll find out all the ways in which it's not historical, something we should say, sort of the last case I'll make, is that there's an asterisk in the titled card that says an occasionally true story at the beginning of every episode. And that just gives you license to unclench and relax about the historical accuracy of everything. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So is this your preferred vehicle for historical period piece, TV, or film? Like, do you like it when it's sort of, hey, here's the broad strokes. We're going to take this period of history or this

historical character. But we're really going to go. go off on our own for a while here. I think I would think of it more in terms of like a biopic than a historical show in terms of I think it's so important for a biopic to have a specific point of view. If you're just going to give me the sort of dry beat by beat in this year we did this and then in this year we did this, that is so played out to the point where, you know, walk hard, like destroyed our ability to do that by pointing out all the ways in which all the tropes are there.

And I think that having a point. of you or having a fun, innovative take on something, yeah, I guess has become a preferred way for me. What about you? Oh, for sure. I mean, I think that traditionally, like, I gravitate more towards, I mean, there are certain historical figures that I would go see, like, a meat and potatoes a biopic of, but, like, I recently rewatched Ali because of King Richards coming out soon. And it's like if a filmmaker is really taking, like, cinematic liberties to explore either how it felt or how this person made us feel. You know, I'm really into it.

But when it's just like the kind of more traditional, like, Ray, like, here's this guy, here are these six big moments we're going to hit in his life. And just at the end, we'll just really appreciate him. I'm like, I already appreciate it, Ray Charles. You know, it's good. I need that. Well, I'm glad you brought up that these Oscar movies because I think that's the time that this conversation really pops up more frequently in the sneaky sort of backlash

Oscar smear campaigns. of a historical film where the opposing camp will say, we'll plant stories where they're like, well, that's not how it really happened. And I always don't care, almost always, depends on the liberty that they've taken. But I almost always don't care because I'm like, well, they're trying to tell you a story.

They're not trying to teach you a history lesson. And we'll hope that you watch this thing and then you get curious enough to go do some more research about it. But this isn't a history class. This is a film. This is a TV show. they're trying to craft a narrative sort of thing. So, yeah.

I'm curious with all, you know, with all this has going for it, with a crackling script, incredible production design, fantastic performances. Why don't you think this show was a massive hit in 2020 when it dropped the first season? So I think it's too aggressive for my mom. And it's too period piece for people who might be younger than us. You know what I mean?

Like it's, it doesn't feel like it's contemporary. temporary enough for maybe, you know, the pitch is really difficult. But when I would show, I showed this to my mom and I think she enjoyed it, but I think she was like, thanks, I'm not going to keep watching that. That was pretty funny, but I'm okay. And she's a big down Navi fan and upstairs downstairs and would basically watch like period piece. If there was a period piece channel, she would probably be one of the, the gold member subscribers. She on acorn? Yeah. She is she a Britboxer? Brit box. Yeah. But there was something about this that I think, was just a little too much for her.

Now, I think one thing the show has going for it is the sheer speed at which it operates and the density of it makes it so that it doesn't build up to and drop a C-bomb on you and then you're just like, oh my God, that was so like, that was so over the line, like everything on the show is over the line. You completely adjust your concept

of what the line is when you're watching The Great. But I do think that part of it, that's part of why I wonder whether not, it just didn't become quite a juggernaut. Also, I think there is a degree of, like, claustrophobia to the show. I mean, a lot of the action takes place in these rooms, and all the rooms are beautifully appointed and everything. It's like every one of these scenes feels like somebody is kind of stuffing themselves with, you know, an excessive amount of really, really rich food, and then cursing, and then drinking, and then screwing, and then backstabbing.

I mean, it is really exciting, but I wonder whether, or not, it doesn't have, like, maybe the action that some people associate with a hit show. I really do feel like it has that potential, though, in the way that succession broke out. I mean, maybe not as big as succession. I don't know, because you are right that there's that period piece barrier of entry for a lot of people. And what attracts a lot of people to period pieces is a cozy, comfortable calmness. You know what I mean? Though we should say there's, like, a dead Turkish diplomat in the first season.

of Downton Abbey. That's true. That's true. But it's a show that my understanding is that it was actually pretty popular for Hulu. They did bring it back for a second season, which they didn't with high fidelity, which is one of my pain points of 2020. I hate that. That really bummed me out.

Really bum me out. But I was really surprised to see it so overlooked at the Emmys. Obviously, awards aren't everything, but I was really surprised to not see acting nominations. at least for this show. Do you know? Yeah, you know, I feel like this is, this show is a little bit of a casualty of just the sheer amount of television

that we have right now. And like even people like us who probably feel professionally obligated to at least check out almost everything, still stuff slips by us. So you can only imagine what it's like for somebody who's like, I have an hour or two a night to watch TV,

what's on, what am I in, or currently in? And then, you know, I just marvel at the fact that like there's three shows coming on this week. Like, Andy and I are talking about today. I'm just like, I can't believe, currently I'm watching seven or eight hour-long shows a week

or half-hour-long shows a week. So I think I kind of understand why sometimes, like, a show like The Great can get by people. And I do think that we have a kind of, still a little bit of prejudice against shows that seem comic in their presentation. You know, it's like it takes a little bit of time for something with,

this many jokes and with this much of an artistry to its humor to break through. You know what I mean? Yeah, I do. It's like antic in a way that Ted Lasso isn't or something like that. Yeah, it's interesting to me listening to Tony McNamara talk about why he was interested in making this story in the first place. It was originally a play and then he turned it into a feature screenplay and as he was sort of shopping around, some folks were like, maybe this should be a TV series. Like, maybe there's too much story in your story here and let's spread it out. And the way he described in an interview that I was reading, he said, a person's whole life

and many accomplishments can be reduced to fucking a horse. Pardon my French. Because, you know, that is the thing that a lot of people think they know about Catherine the Great. Or in this case, pardon you're Russian. Right. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Pardon my serolic. But, like, that she was this incredibly accomplished leader. And there's a lot you can say about the way in which women in power have been reduced over time and stuff like that. But she's incredible accomplished, progressive thinker, leader held this position of power for a very long time. And that is the thing that a lot of people think they know about her. You know what I mean? That's the thing. Yeah, that's my favorite part of this show is Catherine's progressive streak, I guess.

But also like the degree to which she has obviously had her life changed by being introduced to the universe of ideas. and like to reading and to philosophy and drama and literature and her desire to, you know, spread that. Even though it sometimes is it's satirized, it is actually like a very sweet quality of the character. And I like that the show has room for both, right? We can sort of roll our eyes a little bit when she gets a little too high on her soapbox, but then ultimately you're like, oh, but she's advocating for literacy for women. So we like that too. That's a good thing. You want to talk about, you mentioned an Nutsi already, but this idea of like jokes singing all over the place, but balancing that with actual motion.

You touched on that already. But like, I think that comes to a point that I want to make as well about this idea of stakes. That this is a show about murderous power struggle for control of Russia. People are dying left and right. And a lot of times that's treated as just comedy. It's antics and elevated. And then someone dies in season one, again, we're going to get into specifics here. Someone dies in season one like Vlad, the lovely young footman who gets the pox, or Leo, who's this lovely established character that they try really hard to make you like for a season before killing him to show the cost of what Catherine has chosen here.

It's very rare to balance those two tones. Why do you think the show is so successful at it? Well, I wanted to talk to you about this because currently you and I are both podcasting quite a bit about Succession. And I think that one of the ideas that keeps returning to me over this course, the course of this season of Succession is the extent to which I'm here for these people tearing each other apart with one-liners versus those three to five to seven times a season where there's like this real moment of humanity and vulnerability. and it feels really real. It feels not just dramatic, but like, oh, I've seen this moment with Kendall or this moment with Shiv, like, this is reflective of my personal experience in life. Now, that doesn't happen super a lot in the great for me, but you're right that it does

have these moments of like incredible grief or incredible frustration or heartbreak. And I do think that it's the most difficult thing to do with these comedies is ever like dropping the veil and being like, oh, but let's make them into people now, not just joke machines, not just awful. Because like one of the ways you can suspend, you know, suspend disbelief is if everybody is behaving like a complete caged animal the entire time. But like when they actually act like a human being, you're like, oh, wait, now I have to readjust my. my sort of my orientation towards how I feel about this show. Do you get that feeling with this or even honestly with Succession? Yeah. And I mean, we talk about a lot with Succession of like, why should I care about these massive assholes? These are rich assholes. But then there's moments. I think the moment that most people cite with Succession is that like Season 2 hug between Shiv and Kendall or moments like that. And that as we're all broken boys and girls in our own way, we can relate to all of that. But I think that,

in the great the most accomplished example of what you were just talking about that humanizing is the character of Peter like we're going to get into the Nicholas Holt of it all but I think this is one of the greatest performances I've ever seen

from anyone ever but Peter is a monster he's cruel he's he's you know fop and all and stuff like that but throughout he's a homicidal maniac yeah he's he's a monster And when he eventually dies, as he does historically, like we shouldn't be sad, but I will be sad because, A, the performance is so delicious to watch.

And B, they did a really good job in season one of seeding through and in season two, at least the first few episodes that I've watched. It's touched on even more. The family trauma, the hurt people, hurt people idea of the toxicity that he was brought up in, this idea of his parents, specifically, his mother telling him that he was a monster from a child. So maybe if you're told that your whole life, maybe that's who you are. I think humanizing Peter is the show's greatest accomplish in that regard. What do you think?

Yeah, I mean, one of the things that he says talks about the most, that the character talks about the most, is especially towards the end of the first season and the first few episodes of the second season, is his desired change. You know, he's like constantly talking about like, oh, I understand that I shouldn't have done that and I didn't want to, but it happened. And so now I'm telling you I'm sorry and you should be okay with that. And there's something incredibly sweet about this guy who's like, I love this woman and I really want to be the person that she wants me to be. But I'm only really good at two or three things and it's eating, screwing and killing people. It's true. And so those things are going to come up a lot, you know, and I'm going to maybe not sleep with her and I'm going to eat my until I'm sick and then I'm going to kill a guy. But I want to be different. You know, I want to be a better person. Which is, which is not something you can necessarily say about any of the Roy's. Like, they're never like, I acknowledge my flaws and I want to be better. No, they're all wearing like skin suits of humans where they're just like, is this what a human being does?

Should I, should I pretend like I care about these issues? I have no model for how to behave in the world. Yeah. Yeah. And that development of Peter being in love with Catherine, whatever. his version of love is, is a late in season one development. Like, you know, he's plotting to kill her and all his other stuff throughout season one. But right at the end, he decides he's in love with her in a way that I really believe.

And then he finds out she's pregnant and then he's just constantly talking to the fetus inside of her. And that's its own added comedy slash emotional beat to the point where, again, he is a monster and I will be sad if he ever goes. Let me just skip ahead to this whole stuff because this is the thing we know is that Catherine wins and rules Russia and Peter dies. That happens. We know that. There's some speculation as to why Peter died.

This is historical, not like we're reading ready. It's a mystery. It's a bit of a mystery. You've sent away to, I think, at camp. You was basically sent to Siberia and then died mysteriously. So that could be fun to find out how that happened according to McNamara. But McNamara has said that initially his plan for the show was to do something closer to the crown

where they jump ears and maybe cast an older actress, eventually for Catherine, etc. And then he said, we fell in love with each other so much, meaning Elfanning, Nicholas Holt, McNamara, and the rest of the cast, that he's like, I just decided to stay here instead. And that it's an, like, I was curious how much Nick Holt was going to be in season two.

And it kind of feels like they're like, we're just going to stay here for a while. He's under house arrest in the palace. And that's just because it's convenient for us for plot and comedy purposes. They've definitely pumped the breaks on the action, at least in the early part of the second season, where they're just like,

these first few episodes are essentially us walking back and forth into these other rooms and like repeating the same actions over and over again. And I feel like, you know, they probably could have knocked out, like her coronation could have been the first scene of the first scene of the first. second season, you know what I mean? And just been like, bang, and now we're moving. But that

gets us closer to the end point with Peter, unless you subscribe to Peter still being alive, which I guess there was not currently, but that there is some historical scholarship that were like mythology or in Russia about like him. He lived through his assassination attempts and stuff. Oh, I didn't get that far. That's so exciting. They should do that. I mean, well, okay, they planted that seed because one of the like the doubles at the beginning of season two is played by Nick Holt with some like fake teeth in and stuff like that.

So maybe he'll like, it's that double who dies. Right. And he gets to live on, oh, that's so exciting. Because this is the question. Like, can you do the show? I don't want to discount El Fannning

and the rest of the cast who are all extraordinary. Yes. But can, something we talk about about Succession is the fact that Brian Cox's character,

Logan Roy, is supposed to die at the end of season one. And they just liked him too much. And so they kept him around. This is Jesse. This is Omar. This is a thing that haunts prestige TV is like, it's always the character that you love that you got to keep around for the next five seasons. Boy Crowder is a great example of just like, this is just like a white power guy who should have died in the first season. And he's like, he's Raylan's sidekick for most of the show. It's the show. It becomes the Raylan Boyd show. And so, and the same with Succession, where it's to the point where a lot of us are asking, you know, especially as, sorry, this isn't a Succession Pod, but we're both very. It's okay. deep in it. But like, as Logan's health progresses,

we're like, can we envision this show without Brian Cox? And I have the same question for the great. Can I envision this show without Nicholas Holt? What do you think? Yeah. Well, people are still really freaked out about David Caruso, leaving NYPD Blumen. I don't know.

I think that more shows should be braver, but I understand why they're not. I think I would probably, I think we as viewers are sophisticated and courageous enough to go with shows if it feels like the exit of a character is actually dramatically warranted rather than contractually warranted. Like, you can't, you know, for some reason,

someone can't come back to a series, and they're just exited. Succession without Brian Cox is a completely different show. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know what it would be, but it would, and it would be fascinating. I kind of do hope we get a bit of succession without that character, if that's where it's going.

I hope there's like a half a season of these kids dividing up the empire. One or a half season, like something like that. Yeah. If it's a five-season show, like give me the final season or give me the last five episodes without Brian to see where the tips fall. Sure. And with this one, I think the only reason why I would be a little bit more on the side of if you're going to, if the Great does turn out to be a three or four season show, I think that maybe getting off of Holt early. than later would mean the show had a little bit more forward momentum. Because if you are trying to just vaguely mirror this historical arc for these characters, you are kind of running into a brick wall with him.

So maybe just kind of like ripping off the Band-Aid. But the Band-Aid is on top of like one of the best couples in recent TV history. Fantastic. Yeah. And I don't want to say, I mean, I hate to be the person who's like, this is a show about this impressive woman who ruled Russia, and I'm like, but keep her terrible husband around. Keep the guy around, though. Because I really like it.

God, you're shipping, yeah. But you mentioned sort of organic exit of a character versus something else, and I did want to shout out. Charity Wakefield, who plays Regina, sort of leaves in episode two of this season. And as they were sort of maneuvering things to get her gone, I was like, this feels clunky to me. Yeah. And I was sort of looking at her costume. and I'm like, is this actress pregnant? And she is.

So it's like a pregnancy exit, which is a classic TV question. And she could always come back in season three. But it's one of those things that just felt really like, there's no reason why this character, especially that this character would leave and her husband, who is besotted with her, would stay. None of that made sense. But, you know, needs must.

That was like Carolina kind of taking a real step back on succession because I think that actress is obviously pretty, was pregnant. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You like, you know, the handbags get bigger. The potted plants move in front of the people. We do what we can do. You and I were talking before we started recording about this,

the idea of this being a Wikipedia show, which is never something that I've called something exactly, but it is something that I'm going to be thinking about going forward. I've got a couple favorite Wikipedia shows, like The Crown is a big one for me. American Crime Story, like, you know, the OJ season or this last Lewinsky season, etc. And this is such an interesting.

interesting Wikipedia show because it's the best kind. Because you can bop around the Wikipedia pages, but knowing that they're going to take such historical liberties, you can learn some things about these side characters, who's real, who's an amalgamation, but not completely spoil yourself as to what's going to happen by history, spoiled by history. What's your relationship with a Wikipedia show, Chris, Ryan? So I love Narcos as a Wikipedia show. There are some parts of Narcos that I already knew.

There's obviously some parts of narcos that were induced to me. Do you like Narcos, Chris? I do. Is I show you to? But like there are plot lines on Narcos, like the Kiki Camerino season that I was like, I knew what happened. There were parts there was just really cool. Like, you know, Narcos is very, very religious about having 30 seconds of voiceover being like,

and this was the point in history when the Mexican government declared war on the cartels and you're just like, why don't I just look up the PRI in 1994 and see what's going on here? Now, that can ruin a season for you if you don't know. But there is something really fun when TV can be a springboard. I mean, honestly, Thrones was like this with listening to you and reading and listening to Concepcionia and Mal and stuff, where you're just like, oh, I can just kind of get read for two hours after I watch a one hour show or I could listen to three podcasts that are kind of suggesting what might happen or what was led up to this or what, you know,

was sort of spun off of this in the world of the show that we're talking about. So there's something really fun when you like look up the historical Wikipedia pages for the characters you're seeing on the Great. And some of them are there and some of them not, but like Elizabeth. And I'm like, oh, look on Elizabeth. Like she's just like a kind of bit player in this show. But she has like, she has an incredible history. Do you have a favorite side character in the show?

This is kind of a funny one, but I really like Arcady and his wife. I really like their rapport. I like all the people who are sort of just like, my wife might have slept with Peter, but like we're still together. And the husbands are like, that's fine. Yeah. Is it? Well, I've learned to deal with it. I'm a big Velimento fan, Douglas Hodge, giving like the performance of his career.

I mean, he's just like, he's just crushing it. And Adam Godly, too, as Archie, the Archbishop. Like, you know, and calling the Archbishop Archie is like another classic, like modernism or whatever. But these characters and Sasha Dewan, like, basically, like, everyone in that inner circle, are styled so incredibly. Like, I feel like I can smell Archie. You know what I mean? That beer just smells like vodka and incense or something. Yeah.

I know what that guy smells like. I know how long his fingernails are. It's not good. Like, none of it's good. But it's such a great, lived-in, sneaky performance from all of them. And they're just so, so incredible. Just like a lot of room for great, you know, you and I both have talked about this on Succession, where characters like Frank and Carl and, et cetera, these sort of courtiers who circle the power players

are so interesting, especially when they're played by these great character actors or great stage actors and stuff like that. And I feel like the great is a perfect spot for people. that to shine. Yeah, this is, uh, there's, there's a few J. Smith, Camerans or David Rashi's in here where I've, you've seen them in plenty of British TV or in, uh, you know, movies here and there, but they're just getting the most like delicious lines to deliver. And they, there is a little bit of Rosencreds and Guildenstern. Like, there's like a little bit of that, these people off to the side who kind of narrate all the, all the action. There is a little bit of stunt casting this season, though, if you want to call it that.

in that they're bringing in Jillian Anderson. I only watched the first three episodes because that's what we were talking about. So she hasn't arrived yet in what we've watched. And to that end, I mean, people might have already bench season two and they're like, guys, they already killed Peter. You guys are behind. So sorry for a little behind on our discussion. But, yeah, Jillian Anderson is showing up.

I liked hearing Tony McNamara say that he cast her out of sex education, a show that I also completely love and things should be bigger than it is. She's fantastic on that show. Having not seen her, do whatever she's going to do with this, do you any thoughts or feelings about Jillian Anderson joining season two? I welcome her in any and all. Shows, period pieces specifically, but really any TV show. Like, if we could get Gillian Anderson as like the new true detective,

I'd sign on for that. I guess she's already did that in the fall, right? Yeah, yeah. She had her UK. But like, she should join, if she cropped up in season two of Mary of Easttown doing the accent, I would. wouldn't be surprised. That would be amazing. I expect to see her everywhere. I was mixed on her performance in the crown that got her an Emmy, so what do I know? But I love her so much on sex

education. I think that arch tone that she takes in that show will probably serve her really well here. She's playing Catherine's mother. And I imagine there's just going to be a lot of disapproval, etc. coming from that department and incredible gowns. Again, just incredibly designed show. The gowns are fantastic. There's a baby shower party in episode three, I think it is, of this

season two, where everyone's dressed in like, you know, pastels. Yeah. Incredible costuming. It's just really good. I've really enjoyed in the second season so far. This show is not an advertisement. for prenatal health, I would say.

But my favorite sort of parts of this have been El Fanning's characters increasingly like sort of like turning towards drugs and alcohol as she takes on the weight of running a country. Wow. Very funny snorting gunpowder and lavender and a couple of other things that then gives her lots of energy. Yeah, that has her zooming with like her gown open, the corset barely covering her stomach, Just like a real moment, a real look. Yeah, well, I guess I want to talk about that because there were a few jokes in these first three episodes that felt slightly different in tone to me.

Like a little too forced with the winky winky of like how backwards are these people. Like when they were offering her a tray of like raw fish, like all the things, ticking out the list of all the things you're not supposed to eat. Yeah. Yeah, when you're pregnant. And I was like, they wouldn't put it all in one tray. Like, it's funny enough that they put a frog on her stomach. You know what I mean? Like, that's funny.

And, like, the fact that, like, so much, if you look up so many of these things, they're actually true, like, using half a lemon as a contraceptive device, which they do in season one, peeing on the wheat to see if it sprouts is a real thing. So, like, there's enough stranger than fiction real stuff that's happening at this time that I don't know that you need to, like, force the old cheese sushi tray. The cocaine was. Kind of funny, actually. I liked that a lot. She was zooming. She was definitely zooming. But yeah, like that sort of thing where I'm like,

I felt like the humor was perfectly tuned in season one. And there's just a few moments in season two where I'm like, you don't have to try so hard. You're great. This is a hard frequency to play at. Same thing for succession. You got to, you're really, like, when you're flying out of net when you're doing this, it's tough.

That combination of modernity and period piece, like you mentioned a couple other shows that are kicking around that right now, like Dickinson is not one that I've caught up with, but I know it has a lot of big fans on Apple. And you were sort of wondering if we'll ever go back to the musty-dusty, the shows that your mom loves after we've seen the Great and Dickinson.

I don't know what, I mean, like, what do you think about that? So I think that there's two ways to look at this. I would say, first of all, with the favorite, the diversity in the casting is seamless. You're just, you completely just never, even think twice about it. I mean, it's enjoyable, but you're never like, oh, this is just kind of taken me out of it. And I think it's like pretty awesome that we've arrived at a place where that is starting to really take hold where like you just don't really like think much about like

the accuracy of how who is cast as what role. And I don't think we'll ever really go backwards from there. That being said, I wanted to ask you, do you think we'll ever, I'm trying to think of I guess Doughton would be an example. In some ways, Deadwood is an example. Like, Deadwood was so dedicated to being written in the in the sort of of the voice of that era like I mean whether or not that was entirely made up from milch's head but like he was he was so so dedicated to this idea of like this is how I think these people talked right and there wasn't any ever real gestures towards modern vernacular and it does seem like with bridgeton and dickinson and this and I don't know I'm trying to think of any other historical period pieces now I mean the crown is

obviously super accurate. There's this movement towards like, let's kind of sprinkle in people talking like, like, modern. I mean, I'll be honest. I was just watching shrink next door. And the beginning part of that is set in the early 80s. And Catherine Hahn says, I can't even, which I don't think anyone was saying before 2017. And she is in 1982. She's like, I can't even with this. And I was like, okay, we're just kind of like throwing stuff from 2020s into any show now. You're like tubular, sure, but I can't even. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. So I don't know. It just seems like that's become, uh, that's become the way we do these period pieces now. And I was wondering whether you thought we would ever see, you know, is 1883, I guess,

with the Taylor Sheridan show? Is that going to be like, you know, I don't think that Tim McGrath is going to be like, I can't even when he arrives at a, at a ranch, but I don't know. I don't know. But I would watch that show. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, there's a lot. There's a few other examples. Like Outlander is a show that a ton of people watch that obviously makes no attempt towards modern.

Well, even though that's a time travel show where there's like modernity from the 40s into, you know, the distant past. Peaky blinders, as far as I, you know, that's a very violent, sweary show. But as far as I know, that's not like an anachronistic show. It's more than music and stuff. Yeah, yeah, that's true. They're walking down the Black Keys start playing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Harlis is another Hulu show that I actually really liked that, you know, I think went away faster than I need to, a good Samantha Morton performance, which I am always here for.

But I think most of that stuff is being imported a la Brit box. And even so, I think, like, a lot of those costume dramas that I grew up watching miniseries were British imports from the BBC or Channel. for. And I think actually British TV is trending. They're focusing a lot more on modern crime dramas than literary adaptations is not really the thing that they do anymore over there as much. And so that was our main source. So yeah, we might be in a fallow period, but these things sort of come and go. So I think we might be here right now. As you say, I don't think we're ever to go back to a point in time when the Game of Thrones showrunners thought they could say with a straight face, well, everyone would have been white in Western.

And you're like, Kaiser's dragons. So I don't know what you're talking about. So, you know, I'm hoping that we will never go back to something like that. But I would miss it if we didn't, you know, get back into another round of like Dickens adaptations or Austin adaptations or something like that. I'm a fan of those. Did you see, did you watch the Northwater at all? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. That was pretty, that was pretty rooted in history, I thought, you know, in terms of like the way that the characters spoke. So I like, I like both. You know what I mean? I like a little like peanut butter in my chocolate. And then I also just like just pure chocolate sometimes. And so I don't, I want to encourage more people to see this because I think it's really fun. And maybe it'll be a gateway to like some of that more self-serious like costume drama.

Yeah, this is how you find yourself watching Bleak House, you know? That Bleak House, Swinney Series is incredible. Yeah, I know. I know. I don't know. I think that there's room. It's a great one. Yeah, no, I just, I think that there's room.

There's room for all. but I do think we're in that trend right now. But to talk about, like, courage and television, I would be sad if people felt afraid to do a more traditional period piece, like that they had to put anachronisms in there to get people interested at all. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah. Like, I think that there's probably, at this point, a fair amount of, I think that the pendulum is swung away from royal families. Let's put it that way. And I think that if you're going to do something that's set in like a formal court like that or like about princes and princesses or kings and queens there has to be an edge to it I would imagine you know maybe maybe that's that's the read

I'm getting um as a former employee of vanity fair I don't know that I can agree no I agree but I mean the crown just won best drama and that show like doesn't really undercut the royals in a you know in a snarky and uci kind of a way. No, that's true. Yeah, that's true. So there is, I mean, the cult of royalty, honestly, it's something that I didn't understand until I went to go work for Vanity Fair.

I still don't understand it, but I have seen more of it, if that makes sense. You witnessed firsthand the passion, you know? It's a lot. It's a lot. But I prefer something like this, you know, or Succession, where the privileged class, you know, because Succession is about royals in his own right, too, like they're called, literally called the Roy's, like, that let's take the scales off of our eyes about these people and who they really are and what it takes to be this powerful and this rich in this world. And the question

about Catherine, you know, to bring them back to this show, the question about Catherine is she has these ideals, these ideals about, you know, the serfs of Russia or young women and stuff like that. She's already had to compromise one big thing, this first love of hers, for her vision of Russia. But a question about any show in ruling in power is, like, how many more compromise, like, are you going to be able to hang on to all of your high-minded morals? Like, the character of Mariel is constantly trying to argue for a more pragmatic way forward. Right.

But are we going to see Catherine, you know, she was a progressive ruler, but like, are we going to see her have to sacrifice some of those ideals to ultimately get what she wants, you know? Yeah, I think that the first few episodes of the second season, paint a portrait of somebody who thought the reality of ruling was much different than what they had in their mind about what it was going to be like and the the what what incremental change feels like but still having to sort of greet all the nobles and and this is the way things are done and this is the way things are done and you have to tax these people to make these people happy and you know I mean even with my kind of like 101 grasp of Russian history they think there was some cracked

eggs before they made the omelet. You know what I mean? I don't even know if the omelette's done yet. Cracked Fabergette eggs. Yeah, I'm excited to see how her girl bossing too close to the sun might all play out for for everyone here in the royal court. I want to go back, before we close out, I want to go back to this, I want to talk about Hulu as a whole. I don't know how much you like care or pay attention to. I mean, you're, you've got a PhD in TV, but like I kind of like to track. which streamers on top and who's doing what. And I just thought Hulu had such an incredible original programming year. They were obviously sort of running off the high of the Handmaids Tale win that they really kind of only pulled out because Thrones was off that year.

But like they got this big Emmy win with Handmaid's Tale, a lot of momentum for original programming. They did some of my favorite shows in 2020, high fidelity, we already mentioned, gone too soon. Incredible. If you haven't watched it, I don't care if you. you love the book, hate the book, love the movie, hate the movie. This is just a really interesting take on the whole. And I love both the book and the movie, and I loved this series as well. Normal people, incredible, incredible stuff.

Astonishing, yeah. The great, shrill, Remy, like, just fantastic programming in a way that I don't feel like it gets credit for. So consistent, too. And, like, a kind of TV that I think, you know, is my favorite, which is the reliable. You know what I mean? like there's like a bunch of shows that you can dip into and like episode to episode feel very satisfying. You know, there's not a lot of like, you don't have to be like a scholar to watch

high fidelity. You just, you need to just check it out. It's really like, you know, if you have worked in record stores. I don't, I wanted to ask you, do you think that the 2021 that they're having, how much do you think that that's a casualty of the merger of the of the, of the Disney merger? Yeah. I don't know. I mean, it gets muddier, muddier to talk about Hulu because there's FX on Hulu. And then the question of like, what is FX? What is FX on Hulu?

When are things going to drop? It's all very confusing and unclean in a way that I feel sorry for Landgraf. I feel sorry for like everyone for how muddy it is. But I do think the FX on Hulu stuff, like being able to watch devs or Mrs. America or something like that on Hulu. will only bring more eyeballs to it. But then there's other things like doapsick didn't hit it all the way that they wanted it.

They really wanted it to. So I think they're in a rocky moment of transition. And I do think eventually, I know this is the goal. It's just they have to untangle a lot of licensing stuff. Disney just wants Hulu to be a tab on Disney Plus. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I couldn't, you know, some of it I think was pandemic. slow down. There's a ton of shows way more than we could list that have either had their productions halted or delayed or the release was delayed or whatever. But yeah, there was a feeling in 2020, especially that first six months where I felt like I was using Hulu more than Netflix, you know, at least. And now it's a little bit more like, I can't remember the last time

I was like, oh, let me see what's new on Hulu because I kind of just figured I would have heard about it, but maybe the great augurs, like, you know, a new wave of stuff. I, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, negligent or didn't get a chance to check out dope sick. So that was, yeah, but that was the big one that they had this fall. Yeah, and me neither. And that's telling that neither of us felt like we had to watch it. Yeah, I wonder how many, you know, I'm always curious about user behavior. Hulu is not dissimilar from the Amazon service where you can kind of use it to watch other channels that you have. Like, you can, you know, you can use Hulu as like a place where you do your star's subscription if you want, you know, like. Yeah. And same thing with Amazon.

that has all these sub-brands that you can use as make into channels on Ribbons, baby. That's right. You know, AMC Plus is probably one of like my most watch things. So yeah, I don't know. It doesn't have the same feel as it did in 2020. Yeah, well, I will say in 2020, I cut the cord and Hulu Live was like my, was my TV. So I was on Hulu all the time.

And then I made some changes this year. but, like, yeah, that's where I watch my HBO, like on the Hulu app. It's a great app, like, in terms of UI. So, yeah, but so, okay, any, I mean, I guess this is a fun space that we can be in where, like, maybe people listening know more than we do because they've been dodging their family all week and watching all of the great and we haven't gotten to yet. Do you have any, like, predictions or hopes or expectations for the rest of season two? Well, so when did, they haven't mentioned whether or not they're bringing it back yet,

which I take to be either a side that they're trying to figure out where to go creatively with it if indeed this is it for Peter. I imagine Peter's on for most of this season, but do you want to see a version of this show without Holt? I feel like a bad feminist.

If you say no. But I don't. He's doing Hugh Grant. It's a Hugh Grant performance. And like Holt's been great forever. Yeah. Since about a boy. He was a child.

actor, skins. Skins, like Mad Max, single man. That was a moment where I was like, I'm uncomfortable with how old and hot Nicholas Holt has become. Because to me as a child and about a boy. But yeah, he's

he's incredible in everything, the favorite, fantastic and the favorite. Like that's where Tony first spotted him, I think. No, I don't want to show it. Well, maybe they'll do the thing where they use the double. The double. Yeah.

Fingers crossed. And what I really want is for more people to watch the show and for L. Fanning and Nicholas Holt and anyone else who wants one to get an Emmy nomination next year. Yeah, I hope that I think that they are very deserving, but I hope that they're in line for one this year. Timing-wise, it's not great, though, because, like, you know, Emmy winners are going to have to remember,

you know, all the way, whatever, nine months from now. Yeah. So we'll see. All right. Well, I think we did it. Chris Wright, my first ever podcast with you. Yeah. What a joy. I'm at a show that I really love.

What else do you have coming up all around the Ringerverse? Gosh, well, it's, this is Thanksgiving. Well, we're still doing succession on Sundays on the watch. Great job. Yeah. Not that you need me to sell you that, but you and Andy are just crushing it. Thank you. And yeah. And then otherwise, the usual watch rewatchables ringer MBA show stuff.

And you'll have a succession precap tomorrow? No, I think we're taking off the Thanksgiving week. Okay, okay. I think we're doing a day rest. Yeah, yeah. But we'll be back next week, me and was. Okay. Yeah, and I will be bouncing around the ring of reverse with Mal covering all kinds of geeky stuff.

Hawkeyes. Hawkeyes here. Are you excited for Hawkeye? I'm really excited for Hawkeye. Joe, do you think you're going to, how much is too much Spider-Man? Do you think your brain's going to break? from the multiverse? Van and I got really salty about the trailer

last night. We did a little green room, a little live reaction on green room and it was a salty time. I'm worried. I'm worried about this movie. We'll see. We'll see. Are you excited for the Spider movie? Yeah, I'm excited. You know, like, I think I have a little bit of like, I think an unwelcome take, which I think we like over, I think Spider-Man is like really cool. He's never really been like a huge character for me. So sometimes when it's like the weight of the MCU is resting on Spider-Man's shoulders, I'm like, really?

That was weird. Did you read the GQ, the Tom Holland GQ profile? Yeah. Yeah. And that was like, I think it was Anthony Rousseau or Joe Rousseau was like, he's the new Robert Judge. I was like, no, no, no. That's too much to put on a little spider boy's shoulders. No, no, no, no.

I mean, especially since he's like owned by Sony. It's not, it's too complicated. This guy's going to have to be in Morbius 3 pretty soon. Give him a break. Craven 5. Yeah. So we'll see. All right.

Well, this has been the Prestige TV pod. You can find all sorts of, you know, whenever we get a whim to talk about a show, this is the place you'll find us doing it. That's right. So we'll be back with hopefully more discussions about more shows we love. Chris and I, this episode was produced by Sasha Ashall and enjoy the rest of your Thanksgiving. Yeah. Maybe your family isn't as bad. They're certainly not as bad as the Russian Royals.

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