The Prestige TV Podcast - 'Wonder Woman 1984' Exit Survey

Episode Date: December 28, 2020

Mallory Rubin and Van Lathan answer a few questions to try to parse their feelings about the ultimately confusing 'Wonder Woman 1984.' Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Van Lathan Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My life hasn't been what you probably think it has. We all have our struggles. Have you ever been in love? A long, long time ago. You? So many times. Yeah, all the time. Welcome to TV concierge.

I'm Mallory Rubin. It is an absolute delight for me to be here today with my colleague Van Lathen, our first pod together. Yes. History in the making here. Yes. Indeed. Yes. And I think we were both excited and anticipating that we would be here celebrating a delightful holiday, at home streaming, cinematic experience, Wonder Woman, 1984.

Spoiler alert. I don't think that's quite how either of us wound up feeling about it. No, it's not good. Oh, boy. What a strange movie. Why don't we start with just a few big picture thoughts and that we could die? into a couple of the specifics in the time allotted to us today.

What was your, if we want to use the exit interview kind of prompt from the ringer.com, what a great website. It would be what was your tweet length review? But if you can't cram it all into 240 characters, what was your review of this movie? inexcusably poor. With the resources that they had

with the talent at their disposal, this is the first time in a long time I've actually felt. Look, first of all, let's be honest, there's so much going on today. It's almost a normalizing thing to be able to complain about a movie that you didn't enjoy. So I don't want to, I'm not here to bang on the creatives or anything like that. They tried their best. Nobody ever wants to make a bad movie, but they did.

And I'm just wondering how. My main question is based upon the excellence of the first movie, everybody being back, the talent that they assembled. Like, how was this movie this sloppily and poorly made? That's kind of my question. Yeah. Yeah, I feel similarly. I liked the first film a lot. I was very excited for this one,

not only because it's a continuation of a superhero franchise that I and a lot of other people enjoyed, but because it seemed like the elements that were added for the sequel, the Pedro Pascal of it all, the Kristen wig of it all, we're only going to elevate and heighten the kind of deliberate energy of the franchise, you know, the unapologetic weirdness that really made it the first one. So I think fun and fresh in a lot of ways.

And I will say that those parts of the movie I actually did enjoy. I thought Pedro Pascal was in a different movie in a good way, really going for it, really having fun as Maxwell Lord. It's been quite a journey for me over the last. last few weeks with Pedro Pascal. I'm still sitting here with my grogud dolls thinking about the Mandalorian finale. He was a delight. I enjoyed some of the 80s elements of it, the pop, the color, the fashion, all of that. But overall, the pacing, the focus, the length, and like, look, I love a long movie, you know? I was just telling

Kaya before we started recording that I watched the extended edition of Fellowship of the Rings the other day just for fun. But the cadence of this, the clip of it, the way that it moved, is something just felt off the entire time. And that's before you get into any

of the specific elements that really felt somewhere between passively confusing and actively confounding from how the central heroes powers manifest, what we learn about their evolution to the interaction among the characters, all of it. So I guess let's dive into some of the specifics.

And we can attempt to be positive for a moment here before we get into some of the problems a little bit more. What was your favorite moment of the film? What was the best moment? Was there one in your mind? There was. I'm a sucker for the demure sort of smaller character who accesses their power. In any movie where that happens, like,

Love Potion Number 9 Back in the day That film from back in the day Where Sandra Bloch's in the movie And all of a sudden she goes from being a nerd To being super hot Whenever that happens in the movie I love that

Like I'm a sucker for that So watching Kristen Whig Put on the dress that she could have fit The day before You know what I mean? She just did right And kind of go through all that That was cool

Like that whole thing was cool And early on I was actually intrigued By the Dreamstone The Dreamstone itself and like what was going to happen. So all of that stuff was pretty good for me. After that, I really can't glum on to anything that I really enjoyed specifically.

But I thought the movie started off with some promise. Right. My favorite, I'm going to go a two-way tie here. Mm-hmm. Just the general Pedro Pascal of it all. And I thought he was so unflinchingly over the top that I kind of admire. fired it and found it pretty consistently entertaining throughout the entire two and a half hours in the movie. The Chris Pine let me try on all of the clothes in this other guy's closet part.

That was a good moment. Yeah. Real like Stranger Things season three mall montage energy, you know, right down to the to the Nikes. His enthusiasm for the Nikes is he was learning everything about the modern world. You know, obviously it's the 80s so we couldn't quite do this with him, but I really felt a compulsion to port Steve right here into the modern day and show him sneaker news on Instagram and download the sneakers app for him, you know? Let's get him on Stock X. He'd have a blast. Right. What was your least favorite part of the movie?

If you could choose, if you could dial it into one, it can be thematic, it can be a specific plot point, a character execution, anything. My least favorite part of the movie by far was one that I didn't really understand when I was watching the movie. So when Pedro Pascal goes to Egypt and he's talking to the guy and the guy says he wants his ancestral lands back and all of that stuff like that, that entire scene was ridiculously confusing. It was confusing how getting those lands back ended up becoming an international conflict. I was confused at that point. on why he was able to command that guy's guys to come with him.

I was like, what does this mean? And then the whole central thing around the villain having to con people into wishing for things. And then it just, that was so stupid and so clumsily done. Just the action sequence when they were in the Middle East, I don't know why they chose to shoot the action sequences the way that they did this time where everything is, they had them just fine. She was a perfect combat fighter before.

It was Wonder Woman perfectly represented on screen. Now everything is slowed down. Everything is in this weird bullet time. So just not very many parts of the movie worked for me. Right. But yeah, those two things right there. Those two scenes, I was like, I didn't really, I got to be honest with you.

I consider myself to be a slightly intelligent person. I had problems following the movie. Like, I did. Yeah. So it, yeah. I think that's a good point. I'm glad you said that because, you know, we're both big fans of, of comic book movies of superhero movies.

And I think that for me, one of the things with fantasy stories in general, like Jason and I talk about us a lot on binge mode is that you have to establish the rules of the universe, right? Like, that's basically step one, along with it. establishing the characters. And then I can opt in to almost anything in terms of the specific evolution of the lore or the mythology as long as I understand what is happening and how, why. I think that the the thematic intent of the Dreamstone and everything that unfolded with it actually like thematically is something that I find pretty interesting and a compelling premise for a movie? You know, what if you had the ability to give yourself something that you

desperately wanted and you had to pay the price for that? Is that a trade that you're willing to make? Are you willing to put other people in that situation? You know, that's a, that's a quantity for someone like Diana, right? And then you, you assess that from Maxwell Lour's perspective. and it's then a case study and hubris and greed. And even if the germ of your intention is pure, I want to make a better life for myself. I want to make a better life for my son. I want to show everybody that I could do this,

whatever this may be, right? Achieve something. Live out this dream. How does that manifest? And when in the classic villain fashion do you become the thing that you hate? That's all interesting to me. But I think to your point,

which is an excellent one, there are too many moments along the way as the movie was unfolding where you had to stop and say, wait, what exactly is happening and how? Like, did we get a very clear rundown of the basically tradeoff? You know, the, okay, I'm going to grant you your wish. The power works, even though I have basically manipulated you into parroting back to me the thing I want, right? which is like a little bit of a fine print loophole that I would have liked to have had explored more actively.

And then Max can just take whatever he wants in return. Yeah, that I didn't understand that. It was weird. And I didn't catch on that that was a thing until deep into the film. Because like, okay, so we know, right, Diana is losing her strength, her powers, etc. or we start to glean that there's there's something you lose in exchange for what you've gained.

Great. Again, that part tracks and is interesting. The part about how that power, I guess, transferred from the crystal to Max when he became the physical embodiment of the dreamstone, I just wanted to like understand that better and learn more about, again, the mythology at play. Was there an active aspect of the stone previously in its prior incarnation? where that calculus rendered in a similar fashion? They talked about that a little bit. Yeah.

Because wherever they said wherever the stones showed up, the civilization crumbled. So you're led to believe that the stone ends up in cataclysm. Like, you know what I mean? Yes. But so was your interpretation of that basically, and not that it has to be either or it could be any number of eventualities in between, but is it because the stone like the ring of power or any other

other number of magical objects has a will of its own and that then manifests in Maxwell Lord or is it because you know to borrow a Tony Starkism from the beginning of Iron Man 3

we create our own demons and that is the nature of humanity right you become the thing you hate you make the thing that will undo you and so the story plays out the same over and over again

I think either of those answers is actually fine but the fact that the movie doesn't really take the time despite the runtime to, I guess for lack of better phrasing, examine and show an interest in the

morality and philosophy of its own story, it was a bit of a bummer. Yeah. See, the origin of the stone is central in establishing that because you have to know who makes the stone, right? Right. Right. Obviously, if Zeus creates the stone, it's different than if

if Hades creates the stone, right? So, like, you know, when you're watching bedazzled and Brendan Fraser is asking for all of these things, you know they're not going to turn out right, right? Or in that movie The Box, where, you know, would you do this for a million dollars and the blah, blah, blah, you know that the origin of whatever this thing that you're asking for or, you know, you're selling your soul. The origin is evil, so you're going to get evil at the end. With this, you really didn't know. You had to glean from that, from, from things that happening that the stone in its origin is bad because you don't get anything that you can hold

onto from it. And something else about the movie that bothered me is we have to stop depowering Wonder Woman. Like Wonder Woman was, I was cool with the Wonder Woman being sort of infantile in the first movie because she was in a new world and things like, right. And now there's something, I'm not going to get into this too. much, but there's something gross about this. I'm just going to say this real quick. Superman gets to pick up planes

and throw them around and all of that stuff like that. They're creating a very like Wonder Woman. They're created a very needy Wonder Woman. I'm starting to get a little offended. Like I mean I don't know.

Like she, like those guys on that when they're fighting, all of that's easy work for Wonder Woman. It's Wonder Woman. It's Wonder Woman. So, you know, it seems as if all of this were devices by which she could be somewhat less heroic and more vulnerable. And I don't know if we have to always go there with her. Yeah, that's a really interesting point. Very quickly on the prior point about the witch god brought the stone to it.

You know, there's that like very quick, oh, no, this is a bad God we can trace this back to part. And again, it's also fleeting. Oh, excuse me. It's also fleeting. But no, it's also fleeting. I think to the point you just made, I'm glad you said that, because that kind of gets to my least favorite part of the movie.

I have a couple, like, specific things here and then more broadly. Look, it's a superhero movie. It's supposed to be fun, right? However, I'm sorry. Steve ports his spirit, his essence, ports into the body of another guy. Mm-hmm. And he and Diana are just totally cool taking over this guy's life for however long.

Yeah. There's definitely some sex happening without this guy saying, yeah, you can use my body, right? Yeah. What is happening with any of that? That is really, really, really, really weird and problematic. and more generally to the point that you made about how Diana's character evolved in this movie.

I think that obviously, you know, there were a lot of fun and really cool things about the first Wonder Woman film. One of them, certainly, was seeing a woman at the center of a superhero movie, right? Kicking ass. Better, stronger, and more dominant

than everyone around. her, including the guys. I'll say a couple things at once here, and hopefully I can articulate this clearly. I think it's fine and great and lovely that Diana and Steve are in love with each other. Wonderful. I love a good love story. Sincerely, I have no qualms with that at all. It was sort of a bummer to see that Wonder Woman was just pining after this bro for

decade after decade after decade. It's like, live your life. was the Steve Trevor dick that good that you don't want any other She missed the whole 60s She missed the whole 60s Live your life Diana Girl, come on, get on off that

She missed the whole 60s Waiting around for Steve Trevor at the Steve Trevor Ranch She said Steve Trevor Ranch when free love was going on What the fuck is going on? That was a nice photo The Steve Trevor Ranch photo I'll say that And then even that

that sort of extended to the Cheetah plot in a way where, you know, I agree with what you said earlier about the really kind of captivating nature of the glow up sequence, right? That's always fun. But the flip side of that, when you consider it in the context of the shift with Diana, it's like, okay, we have this really accomplished, successful smart woman who is just waiting around for validation from not just men, but all these other people. Now, again, like to be clear, there's a part of that I think is really relatable and true to life. It is completely normal and okay to want other people to notice you, they want other people to like you.

I think that is normal. And to imply that that wouldn't be the case for people, that would actually be out of sync with reality, right? And there are the requisite moments where Diana, you know, basically tries to say to Barbara, you're awesome. Do your thing. You know, don't worry about all of this other stuff. But when you kind of lump it all together,

it's these very accomplished capable women who you don't quite get the time with them fully that you want. And I'll say like one of the things not to make this about the final season of Game of Thrones, but if you'll indulge me for a moment. Spoiler alert, first season eight of Game of Thrones here. Fast forward 45 seconds if you don't hear this. One of the things that always actually really bugged me was the number of people who thought it didn't make sense that Briann was upset after what happened with Jamie. Because to me, it was like, these things are not mutually exclusive. You can care deeply about another person and want to have that intimacy, want to have that closeness, want to have that aspect of your life fully realized, and still be a badass, still be an accomplished independent capable person, right?

the presence of the former does not diminish the ladder in anyway. So I just want to be clear and say like, I think that can be true for these characters too. But as is always the case, it's in the way that that is presented to us and the way that that's executed. And part of what I'm tuning into Wonder Woman 1984 to see is to see Diana and Cheetah absolutely kick ass and not feel like they need to waste their time with these idiots. Yeah. That's all. Yeah. And it's a weird thing that like, you know,

I wrote something back in the day where, and I was wrong as a kid, I said that Superman's biggest weakness isn't kryptonite. Superman's actually biggest weakness is Lewis Lane, right? Because kryptonite is in short supply, but they can always act like they're going to do something to Louis Lane and you'll get his attention. That's actually not true. Lewis Lane only makes Superman stronger. It only makes him rise to, I was wrong, it only makes him rise to more heroic heights. It only makes him, she only makes him more moral. She only makes him more human.

she only makes him. Steve Trevor is bad for Diana. Steve Trevor distracts her. He does. Steve Trevor distracts her. Steve Trevor anchors her. Steve Trevor always makes her have to choose between what her purpose is, which is actually to save other people and to be a self as hero and her own thing.

Like, Steve Trevor doesn't do anything for it. And by the way, Steve Trevor was completely useless in this movie. There was no reason to be. I don't know, Van. got to fly a plane through fireworks, which definitely seems unsafe. Flew a plane, they dusted off an old plane at the Smithsonian that hadn't been, the plane had been decommissioned, but it was still operational, had a full tank, the whole nine could fly to Cairo and back,

didn't need any refueling, the whole nine. And because of being able to fly that plane, she then learned how to fly. Like, it's just, it, it, look, man. I'm being too negative, Mallory. I don't, I know, this is not what I want. I'm seriously. I love Patty Jenkins. Me too.

Rogue Squadron, let's go. I can't wait. Hasn't diminished my enthusiasm for Rogue Squadron one iota. And I think that they'll probably, because the next movie's been fast-tracked, they'll probably get it right more to the point in the next movie. But I just can't understand how this happened. I just got to be real. Like we were sitting there because we were too full on Chinese food.

to watch it Christmas Day, so we watched it Saturday night. And we were stunned. Yeah. We were stunned. Stunned. Stunned! At the movie. Stunned.

So I guess, you know, you mentioned the third film. That's maybe a good end note here. How are you feeling about the DC cinematic universe overall, either as a result of this installment or maybe what awaits. Are you feeling better about it? Are you feeling worse about it? Exactly the same? All of this has proved to me who the most powerful superhero in the world really is. The Marvel Cinematic Universe and Kevin Feigey? Kevin Feigey. Yeah. It got my view, man. Totally. The most powerful superhero in the world is not actually Iron Man. It's not Captain Marvel. It's not Black Panther. It's not Thor. The most powerful superhero.

in the world is actually Kevin Feigy. Had the exact same thought. D.C. has a litany of amazingly powerful characters. It has the gold standard in comic book storytelling.

It has, and by the way, I'm not talking about just golden age, Superman and Batman stuff, Batman with the greatest rogues gallery in the history of comic books. I'm not talking about any of that. I'm talking about recent DC storylines that are fantastic. I'm talking about things like Flashpoint. I'm talking about all kinds of things. They have the DC animated universe is fantastic, right?

The fact that they can't get it right shows that they don't have a Kevin Fikey. They don't have a regular guy with a big picture soul. And they really need that. They got to figure this out in the next couple of movies, Mallory. They have to. I'm with you. I mean, I think that there's something about the very standalone vibe of self. of what we've gotten from DC that allows for something completely unapologetically bizarre, like Aquaman, and that part of it can be a little bit fun. But I don't know, what the MCU has done, like, the level of execution, the floor is just so high. That's the most impressive thing. Not only the continuity and the consistency and the clarity of what they're building toward and how to get there every step along the way. And it's not just about how high the ceiling is, though, of course, it can

be extraordinarily high for the best Marvel movies. The thing I'm just always so impressed by is, again, how high the floor is because even the worst MCU movies, I find myself routinely saying aloud, I don't know, I ride for Thor the Dark World because I liked it. I liked it. Guess what? Guess what? I like it.

I don't, I know it's supposed to be so bad. I enjoy it. I watch it all the time. Here's the thing. It's just not that bad. Yeah. Is it as good as Ragnarok? No.

Anthony Hopkins Odin saying Melikif 50 times and then taking a nap. I'm in. Yeah. I liked it. There's nothing wrong with it. Any final thoughts about Wonder Woman or anything else before we head out today? Not a final thought. A final pep talk.

Really quick one. 30 second pep talk. Wonder Woman. We're still here. We still believe in you Wonder Woman. just want to let you know Patty Jenkins Gagadot, the whole team over there, we still believe in you.

Don't do this again. Okay? All right. I'll be back. I'll be back for the next one. I'm good with it. Day one. Don't do this again.

Okay? One time thing. I love it. I'm with you. My wish from Maxwell Lord will be for the third Wonder Woman installment to be better than this one. And in return, he can take for me,

Wonder Woman 1984. Great to be here with you today, bud. Thank you to everybody for tuning in to TV concierge. Check back soon on Spotify.