The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Yellowjackets’ Season Finale

Episode Date: January 17, 2022

Bill, Joanna, and Mallory dive into the season finale of ‘Yellowjackets,’ give their thoughts on Season 1 overall, and make predictions for Season 2.  Hosts: Bill Simmons, Joanna Robinson, and Mallory Rubin Associate Producer: Sasha Ashall Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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You're racing thoughts and restless nights won't stand a chance. Find Ollie Sleep Solutions for the Whole Family at ollie.com. That's OLLLY.com. Yellow Jackets. Season one finale, my name is Bill Simmons. I'm here with Mallory Rubin, Joanna Robinson, and a dead bear that I carved the heart out of. Mallory, here we go. Let's go.

We won't be happy. hungry for long, Bill. Let's go. No reason. I decided this could also have worked as a W.W. Entrance theme, too. Yeah. I was worried this wouldn't be a great finale.

I was worried that we would have more questions and answers and feel a little bit like maybe we wasted our time. I did not feel that way on Saturday night as I immediately watch the show. A banger of a finale. Malo, who was your favorite part?

Of the finale, I think exactly what you said, that it wasn't a letdown, that it met and maybe exceeded expectations. What a journey it's been into the heart of the wilderness and the soul of man. I've had a lot of fun. I've had some nightmares. I'm not going to lie to either of you,

but I've had a lot of fun along with the nightmares. And the finale gave me exactly what I wanted. It's satisfyingly concluded season one, but it propelled us forward. So much to talk. about so much to parse, dare I say so much to chew on, you know, that, that thick, tender, maybe rough meat that we could just gnawn all season long. I will say this for a show that, you know, there's TV scary and then there's real scary,

when Taise's ex-flame was down in the basement and was like, hmm, what's that draft and looks into the vent? I was like legitimately scared, Joanna. That was as scared as I've been watching a television show. Usually you feel that way in movies, but not with TV. I was scared. There was a little bit of blood, and there's been a missing dog. So you're like, well, I thought for sure it was going to be the dog.

I did not expect a full-blown altar. That's what I did not expect. Dismembered pets, my least favorite thing is both of you know. And yet I've plowed ahead to join you today. Can I just ask you right away, would either of you have crawled through into that secret chamber? Oh, no. You feel and hear a hysterious draft. You see drops of blood.

Do you crawl forward? No, right? No. I burn the house down, probably, is what I would do. Can I say my favorite part of the finale? Yeah, what's here, Joanna? It is the introduction of a cult with matching, like, you know, athleisure, as Mal put it in a chat earlier.

Like, there's nothing I love more than a cult with a uniform. I'm so excited. I'm so excited. Can we call this the Athlizier cult? Please. Well, you know, we're right on the heels of Disney Plus MCU series Hawkeye where there is literally a group of kind of comic relief villains, but villains called the track suit mafia and they wear matching tracksuits.

So maybe this is a trend now. Plus Squid Game, you know. That's right. It's the era of athleisure. I love this for us. All right. So let's break this down in order of importance. Most important thing we learned in this last episode is that there is a cult.

So it's been intimated. We've wondered. There's been sacrifice elements. There's been David Koreshian kind of themes with Lottie. We've seen what's the over-religious lady who died in the plane, Lourley? Norley, yeah. Laura Lee, we've seen her die. The bear caught on fire.

So there's been supernatural stuff going on here. But now we know we have a cult. We know we have a cult that's operating in 2020. and formed in the wilderness in 1996. My question for you, Joanna. Was the cult in the wilderness or did Lottie make the cult happen? It's like a chicken and egg thing. What came first for you?

Oh, do you mean because the symbol was in the wilderness before they got there? Yes. Well, I think it's Lottie maybe. I'm sure something was going on in the wilderness, but I think whatever's happening with this cult here. is something that was created via Lottie psychotic break, you know, mass hysteria, trauma, like all of those things in the stew. We're going to talk a little bit more about some of the interviews that the showrunners have given post-finally.

But one of the things that I think is most interesting that's made me feel better about our questions about the supernatural is that their intention throughout is to make it plausible that something supernatural is going on and plausible that there is a real-world explanation for everything going on. I don't know how they explain what happened with the bear at the end here. But, like, they want to leave the audience. It's up to the audience and decide whether or not something spooky or something just, you know, mass hysteria is going on. And I think that's really interesting. That's how Season 1 of Lost operated.

I know, like, we don't want me to talk about Lost the whole time. But under the instructions of the network, Lost had to have a plausible real-world explanation for every single thing. thing that happened in the first season because the network was too scared to do a supernatural show. And the show was a huge hit, so they were allowed to go wild and do smoke monsters and whatever they wanted. But season one, they had to have a real world explanation for everything. And I kind of like that sort of in-between space, where it's up to us to decide what the show actually is. I think that's kind of cool. I don't know. What do you think? Where do you stand, Mel? So there are two things to parse here. The question that you asked about the cult and exactly what the origin of the cult is.

And then that broader question that Joanna raises is about the supernatural element. I have a lot of thoughts on the latter for the former. Well, and the third question is, does that supernatural wilderness thing, was that why the plane crashed? Because I was thinking, did the wilderness pull the plane down potentially? Or was the plane or was this all happenstance and chance? Anyway, I know if you got it. That kind of feels like how close to lost do they actually want to get?

with where they ultimately go with that. I mean, that is heavily, heavily, heavily lost corner, maybe more so than even some of the broad stroke similarities here. Because right now I think there's a lot of, you know, lost Lord of the Flies hybrid energy and it can skew. I think that the ultimate supernatural question will determine which camp it skews more firmly toward. For the Colt, the confirmation that Adult Lottie is alive,

not a shock, but definitely a thrill, right? and more fuel for the fire that we will learn that more people are alive. I feel sure, and I think we all agree, that we will learn adult van is still alive in the present-day timeline. The scar is coming back. Yeah, the scar is coming back. We'll know right away. It'll be great. I was keeping such a close eye during the reunion scene to see if we could catch a cheek scar in any peripheral shot and realize the van was alive.

I think that that's the big question, right? I don't know if I have a strong theory, but did Lottie, like, is there, again, to go to the lost corner here, is there like the others? You know, is there going to be another group of people who are currently occupying space out in the wilderness that Lottie or any other people find? Like, Javi is gone. They can't find him. Has he wound up with some other group of people? That's definitely possible. And if there is another group of people living in the wilderness, and I'll just say in advance here, I'm going to say, yellow,

Yellowstone instead of Yellow Jackets 20 times today. I'm going to say the island instead of the wilderness 20 times today. Me too. Just going to roll with them. So maybe there are other people who are actually active in keeping this kind of cult alive and Lottie will join them in some way. Maybe she will recruit other members from modern day society back in the old garden state into whatever sort of zealot group she brings back with her.

I think the fact that both of those possibilities are in play is actually important. I think the latter, no matter what, I think the latter is true that like, you know, the members we see in the ath leisure, you know, there was... They're not from the wilderness. At least so... Some of them aren't. Yeah, so the...

Well, they're not people we've met there yet. Well, but wait a second. They could be there. So the dream, the dream that Shauna allegedly has, but might have been Jackie's dream and she might have gone into the portal of Jackie's dream before she wakes up and finds out.

Very twin peaks. I love it. There's that random dude who comes in the end after the hot chocolate. We see a character we've never seen before. Yes. So to Valerie's theory about, are there other people out there? Where'd that guy come from?

Who is he? Is he the cabin guy? He's credited in the, the actor is William, Reddit has figured this out. The actor is William Charles Vaughn, and he's credited in that episode as the hunter, quote unquote. So I think he's supposed to be the guy in the attic. I think he's supposed to be the guy who wants the cabin, which is very lost, again, to have a ghost in the cabin, but whatever.

Right. I'm not mad about any loss parallel to him. spirit, his specter be the same force that was like possessing Lottie in the attic sequence when Lottie began to speak French. And of course, throughout the season, we've heard Lottie sort of say like, it, it, it, it doesn't want us to leave. It, it, it. And that is, we have thought, I've thought like the, yes, the Ivy Island, the wilderness, whatever forces at play here. But maybe that is concentrated more specifically in a person or a group of people, perhaps. Can't wait to find out.

lost homage is hobby disappearing and we don't know where he is very reminiscent of who is it Walt Walt coming back post-puberty Walt comes back and says what happened you've grown 12 inches so that reminded me of that oh my god do you think they disappeared hobby for the same reason they had to disappear Walt was as the actor was growing too tall he was just yeah it happened to my son my son grew 10 inches during the pandemic it became unrecognizable they shot the pilot in 2019 is when they shot the pilot for this show. So let's talk about the pilot for a second because it ties into the Jackie conversation

I'm about to have. I watched the pilot again yesterday. Same. Really interesting to watch after watching all 10 episodes and the thing that jumped out to me the most other than how important Jackie was in the pilot and just how much swagger she had

and control she had over the group and was actually like a pretty good captain. Like she intervenes when Shauna and Taise are about to have a fight. She brings. brings a man and she, like, she wasn't like the worst person world. Anyway, in that scene, well, I'm not saying she's great, but she wasn't like horrible. We'll litigate that later.

But it's really interesting how they center on specific characters in that pilot in the group when Taisa and Jackie are arguing and it's the girls that are there. There are all the people that became characters over the course of the season, right? You have Van. You have Lottie, who doesn't say a lot. you've Jackie of Taisa, you've Natalie. It's the only one who's not there.

Lottie was in the pilot more than I remembered. Yeah. I rewatched the whole season, actually, before we recorded last week, before we talked about episode nine. And I thought the use of Lottie throughout the season is so smart. Like the reveal of her as the Antler Queen is so smart because she's always been there.

You can't say, who is this Rando whose name I don't know or anything like that? Like Lottie has been there. She had her own flashback. episode. Like, she's always been there. But she wasn't one of the survivors that we knew of. And I just, I think that's masterful. And the use of her makes me, I'm a little more confident than I was when we talked initially, Bill, like when we talked to the midseason about Yellowjackets, about their plan.

Because the show owners have said they have a five-season plan, like, they have it all planned out, all this whole thing. And the way they use Lottie here makes, it feels really assured, feels really smart and assured the way that they did it. Yeah. A roadmap tattooed onto Adam's back guiding us into the heart of the mountain range. Wow. Wow. Wow.

Wow. Wow. There's some internet stuff about how Lottie was the two rich girls on this show are Lottie and Jackie. Right? And they get some influence from that. But there's some signs that Lottie is like wealthy. And what are the parallels of on the island? They're on that plane because Lottie's dad gets them the plane, right?

Right. Yeah. So the confidence you get from being like in a super wealthy family does, is it a coincidence that she's the one who gets chosen as the whatever or is it just all random? Can I just say very quickly there? I think that there's also a touch of a lost Charles Widmore like comp there with like resources off the island slash out of the wilderness and establishing that Lottie comes from like money and might have some sort of access to reach.

I don't know. I'm so glad you compared her. to Charles Woodmore because I'm so eager to compare Misty to Ben. Like I can't even tell you how much I think that Misty is our Ben figure on the show. Oh, that's a good one. I like that. So, all right, so Jackie and Shauna,

that's one of the best scenes of the season, if not the best scene. The fight. A really good high school girl going deep. Incredible. Cutting deep. A lot of history coming up and just the looks on their faces, everybody else watching it, it's excellent.

And I realized in that scene that I think I'm Team Jackie. It's controversial. Oh my God. Okay. Can you tell us why? Yeah. We're supposed to be rooting for Shana, right?

I think you're supposed to be like on both of their sides and neither of their sides at the same time. But they position Jackie as this mean villain. But meanwhile, Shana completely undermined her and was having sex with their boyfriend. And somehow, Shauna is the sympathetic character because we all like Melanie Linsky so much. and she's so good on the show. And we know we have the adult genre and we see all the stuff.

But, you know, there's definitely, Jackie's supposed to be the mean girl, right? And she's supposed to be almost like the character of, the character of the mid-90s movie Mean Girl. But then when you watch that pilot again, she's kind of a better captain than I expected. She definitely tries to look out for everybody else. And she got undermined by her best friend.

Well, I think what she's in her position of privilege and power, Like, she's a benevolent dictator, right? So she's like, she's a popular girl. She's like team captain, you know, she's not the best athlete. She's richer than a lot of the girls around her, you know, all this sort of stuff. And so when you're on top, you can, like, afford to be benevolent. But when she feels her power slipping is when she gets super petulant. And I think in that scene, it's really evident when she's like, she tries to kick Sean out of the cabin.

She does not at all realize, you know, how many people she's alienated by. by calling them all crazy or whatever it is she calls them. And she just doesn't understand the power dynamics that exist in the woods, even though last week Lottie told her, like, you have no power here. And I thought it was really interesting that the death of Jackie and the death of her power is something that the showrunners have said that they view is like the death of like the order, the civilization order. Like this is the old world rule and it's dead.

And now we're in the rule of the wilderness and Lottie is the queen. And one follow-up question as a talk about. person. I just want to say, I think also the fact that Lottie is tall is part of her power as well. People respect tall people. I'm just going to say that. Tall and old. She's also, the actresses seems like she's 10 years older than almost everyone in the show. Yeah, she's, they do a good job in the, in the pilot when we see them in high school. She seems like the big kid on the soccer team, right? Like every soccer team, there's different types of kids. There's like the fast kid. There's the little tiny kid that controls the ball in the

middle of the field. Then there's like the big strong kid. And she seems like she was the big strong kid. They put her in the pigtails to make her look younger. It didn't totally work. Matt, what are you going to say? I have so many thoughts on this. I think that to the larger point about like whether we're supposed to be team Sean or team Jackie and who are sort of supposed to be rooting for, some of that I think just comes from the fact that we are with Shauna across the timelines. And so we are like naturally more invested in her arc because of the amount of time we've spent with her in the course of her life that we've spanned very quickly just over, you know, 10 hours of TV. I do think, though, that ultimately the nature of the show and

what it's interested in exploring about human nature is meant to make us feel like a little bit complicit for whoever we're rooting for, but also genuinely empathetic toward people who have gone through very difficult things. That's part of what's interesting about it, that dynamic, right? It's not a clear cut good versus evil. Like, everybody is complicit in something along the way. Everybody has made a mistake. I'm sympathetic to Lottie. She's run out of her medicine. You know what I mean?

Like, unsympathetic to Misty. She's been kicked around her whole life. You know, like, I'm sympathetic to everyone. But it doesn't make it right that she's loading, you know, chocolates and cigarettes with, like, I mean, it makes it hilarious, but it makes it very morally wrong. To a couple other thoughts on that Shauna Jackie sequence and Jackie's ultimate death. I love that fight. That was so true to life.

And I think that as we continue to debate. this supernatural element and what direction the show is going in, those are the scenes that are going to make it work no matter what because they're rooted in humanity

and they're rooted in relationships, right? And that's really the key because that's what they're building back up, but that's also what they're losing. That's what's at risk every moment along the way.

And so those are the real stakes, the ties that they have with each other and their understanding of themselves. Well written and well acted is always going to win. Anyway, keep going. Yeah. Jackie's death.

I just want to say that I think this was a perfect decision because perfect. There's going to be inevitably, I think there already is a little bit of a, oh, you know, where's the like mauling by bear or these falling into the pit? Because of course, you know, the opening scene with the pit in the pilot, like a lot of theorizing that that would be Jackie in part because of the necklace. Jackie dying, cold and alone. Shining style. I just think very fitting and apt and reflective, as Joe, as you're saying, of the end of a certain era of their lives.

I think that the choice, though, to make Jackie that kind of like loss of innocence, loss of a phase of a certain chapter or character, instead of someone who would be more aligned with like the Simon figure from Lord of the Flies. A true, like, loss of innocence is fascinating to me because I think it reflects the show's ultimate agenda, which is to, again, and kind of like corrupt and complicate the idea that there is really anything like innocence in a pure form. Like, they don't think Jackie can make it out there, right? Would Laura Lee be a more, like, a more direct comp to the Simon character?

Like, Laura Lee, the, like, innocent Christian. Yeah. Like, but that just sort of passes almost without mention in a way. Yeah. It's like a sideshow. Fire and Ice. Joanne, are we sure she, are we sure she dies in her sleep

or was something more sinister? I think she died nersleep. And I think it's a perfect death because they're complicit but not active. Like they didn't murder her. But I think that they could all carry guilt for her death because they shut her out of the cabin. You know what I mean? I mean, she had a lighter. So they didn't leave her completely bereft. But no, I don't think anything worse. That was part of what made it so perfect, though, is like Jackie wasn't helping to maintain the shelter. Jackie thought she was above it. Like Jackie reminds me of the contestant on Survivor who comes in and thinks she's going to run the show. and then gets voted out before the merge. Because nobody respects the person who isn't willing to try. Nobody respects the person who thinks they're better than everyone. Right.

And so she couldn't make a fire. Even with a lighter. Like, even with a lighter, I can make a fire with a lighter. She couldn't do it, you know? This is classic survivor. I wish Jeff Probst had been there narrated. I'm not corpse blaming, but I'm just saying like,

she had a small shred of a chance and she didn't. Will they eat hockey? They're full of bare meat. They're full of bear meat. So here's the thing. Couple great things from that death. One is the guilt. They didn't kill her, but they kind of did.

So you have that. You got to wrestle with that. Shana's going to have to wrestle with that. But more importantly, she now becomes our number one draft pick in the cannibalism fantasy draft. Does she? I don't think they eat a bear.

Yeah, but the bear that you can still, you can, because there's snow, you can freeze Jackie for like a week. So I'll just pack her up. Do we think, here's the question. Do we think the opening? where they're all in their fur regalia

and someone's like... Next winter. A year away. Like, that's a year away, right? So we just have like a long road to cannibalism is what I think so too. And we have Sean's baby too, which we talked about last episode.

It's an incredible outcome for that. I mean, maybe let the baby grow until four or five months old. Then the feast happens? Who knows? This is the kind of show where you debate how old should the baby be before you eat the baby?

It was not until I saw the dog head. Like before the dog had on the altar, I would have said, no way they're eating that baby. But now I confess. It's a great point. Dog head on the altar removed. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. Yeah.

So let's go back to the bear bowing to Lottie. Because it's a really important and weird moment that was the one that my wife was the most confused by. The bear shows up. Lottie is couldn't be less scared, walks over and manages to kill it with one stabbing in the back of the neck, but the bear sacrifices itself to Lottie, which seems very significant, but I don't know how to interpret it. I mean, okay, so the example that the show owners keep bringing up in all these interviews and they're like, supernatural or no, we're not sure, is this idea of possession and how

the phenomenon of possession is something that, like, people see, something definitely happens. When a person is possessed, the possession of Emily Rose or whatever you want to call it, when someone is possessed, that is the thing that has happened in the world. Is there something supernatural involved, or is there something of, like, the power of suggestion and religious forever and something else involved in all of that? And so this idea of, like, are we seeing what actually happened with, there's my question. Are we seeing what actually happened with the bear? Did the bear actually bow down?

Or is that a subjective, like, you know, was the bear sick and stumbled or something, you know, a wounded and stumbled or something like that? Yeah. Something was wrong with it, right? So what's wrong with bear? I don't know. I said this to you both when we were texting, but it reminded me powerfully of the Mandalorian season one, episode two.

Mando spoilers. When Mando kills the mudhorn with one thrust of the vibro blade because the mudhorn is suddenly just still. Why is the mudhorn still in that instance? Because the force, Joanna. Ever heard of it? The force. And so there's this part of your brain that just can't accept

that a creature of that scale would hold. halt, right? Especially when there's this feast in front of it. And so it is a compelling bit of evidence in the supernatural camp, but I agree with you the fact that you can easily kind of, the show in a way reminds me of baseball, where you can find the saber metric stat that you need to make your case either way. And I think that that will be important to maintaining the fervor and fever pitch of the discussion around it. I feel like the answer ultimately to like the extent to the supernatural will be important to how the show results. or maybe even to how we feel about it midway through.

But at this point, I think actually the fact that we can't definitively say is, is good and is what's more important than having clarity. I will say, though, like when the bear thing happened, I was compelled toward the supernatural camp. And I have been in a few, it won't shock you to hear, I have been in a few other moments as well. No, I mean, it's there. It's there if you want it. I'm not saying it's, like, wrong to be into that interpretation. and I think it's like the show isn't, you know, it can easily have a supernatural.

Like a lot of these visions. A lot of these visions are there. But I think that's the thing is that they want to have it duly. And I hope that they never resolve it. That's my hope. Can I give you two pet peeves? One is that we just have to figure out better. I know the age of pita, you can't actually kill animals.

But that was the most fake-looking bear stabbing I've ever seen in my life. This is a show that has cool special effects. And that looked like they just brought some guy in a bear costume and stabbed them with a plastic knife. Really fake-looking. I was just re-watching. I was just re-watching the Polo Bear attack on Lost. And it's just, we're in a much better place. We had less of an excuse by then.

Second, you mentioned the interview with the showrunner. And I think we should do this now before we hit the rest of the show. They need to shut the fuck up. Like, honestly, I don't, I don't want the info from them. And this is the same mistake that the lost guys made back then. Like, stop catering the fans and, like, ruling out theories. Put mystery around the show. Let fans go either way with it.

I don't want to be guided by you showrunners. Stay out of it. Tell us after. Do the David Chase. David Chase wasn't coming out after Sopranos episodes being like, here's what I wanted from Tony or, well, here's what people miss with that. Like, let us do all that stuff and then come in later. I think it's stupid.

Well, I feel kind of mixed about it because I hear, saying, and I know a lot of people on Reddit were really disappointed because a lot of theories were obliterated by these post-finali interviews. However, I do think there's a danger in a, like, especially like we're not going to get the next season until probably the end of this year. There's a danger in like a 10-month speculation gap where people just like whip themselves up into a frenzy so that whatever the actuality is, like Jackie's actually dead or Adam was just Adam or all these various things. They've spent so long. We wouldn't do this because we're already rolling onto the next show, like our attention spans are too short for this, I think, as we're trying to cover everything.

But there's going to people who are going to hang out on the Yellow Jackets Reddit board all year, which they should because it's a great place to be. But, like, I've seen the opposite happen with, like, Westworld or a few other shows where it's just like, if you don't answer anything, and people just create their own narratives and then they get to invest in those narratives. And then whatever you write, however clever or whatever, it's not as good as the thing that people have whipped up in their heads because they've, you know. So you say they have to pour water on people so they don't get too carried away?

I think there's a certain amount of water. Maybe they poured too much water and maybe post-season two, they won't pour as much water. But I think that you have to pour a little bit of water on things or else things that get out of control. Theory shows are so tricky that way. We've been talking about loss. Loss is obviously the biggest example of where the theorizing sort of swallowed up the show. But there are other shows like Twin Peaks for all its incredible pedigree and legacy. like it got devoured by theories when it initially aired.

Mr. Robot is something that sort of fell victim to that. The TV landscape is littered with all these theories shows that get kind of burned up in the fervor of a theory, especially a hot season one. That's where I get really nervous for a show when season one is so frenzied. It's like, where do you go from there? And I think the show owners are asking themselves that question. Antiraj never had this problem. I'm of two minds as well. I don't want them to pour water on it.

I want them to pour Misty's shroom-imbued broth on it. So like I like the idea actually of engaging with the fan base and the conversation. I think that's been one of the really cool things about this first season. The community that is quickly kind of cultivated and the way that the people who are directly involved in the show are interested. seemed genuinely interested in what the fan base thinks and the theorizing and the conspiracy corners of it all. I think that like, one of the, so I came to the show a little late, as you both know, caught up in real time. And one of the things I'm really sad about is that I wasn't watching week after week and engaging with the discussion and the theorizing in real

time because that's one of the things that I love about sharing a TV show or a story with other people. So I like that they're acknowledging that this is a thing. I don't want, them to come out and flat out say, Adam is not Havi. Like, that's not, I don't think that's particularly fun. So, and that was one of the, you know, Adam is not the hobby, which I still believe, by the way. Adam is not shot as baby.

Like, these are theories that they're outright addressing and saying in the, in the THR interview and Sephamal's Rolling Stone, there are various theories that they addressed across both of those, and I'm sure others. I don't know. I want the Adam Havi thing to live. this what I but what is something here's what I say that's very interesting about that Adam thing is that they said uh I forget where oh the Harper's interview Harper's bizarre interview um they talked about Adam's death and they said what is more tragic and more perfect encapsulation

of the consequences of trauma than for this relationship to explode in this devastating and tragic way like how fucking sad would be if Adam really was just a guy who fell in love with Shauna that because of what had happened to her it was an impossibility for her to accept that we were hopeful that it would work on both of those levels that we would see vision of parent and and then of heartbreak when the truth was revealed. And they go on to talk about how they put the tattoo in there, which we talked about last week, on purpose, to get people really excited and frenzied about the Adam theories so that when he died, we were like complicit in Shauna's paranoia that we and our theories killed Adam.

And I was like, I mean, that's operating on a God tier level as far as I'm concerned in terms of engaging. Yeah, they're engaging directly with this theory culture that has sprung up ever since. since Twin Peaks-in-Laws. They have their like citizen detective stuff that they talk about on the show. Like the fact that they are thinking that directly about the theory crafting, I think is really interesting.

If that's ultimately true, I think that's very satisfying, but then more of that needs to happen inside of the show itself. And that gets back to what you both were talking about in the prior pods about like leaving a little bit more room inside of the episodes to actually see the characters grapple with the decisions that they've made and the things that they've done. Like there's, it was really compelling to see them have to, to spring in to hide the corpse mode, right?

But I couldn't help when Misty said, a torso is useless. Like, you can't do anything with the torso to think, well, but wait, what about that back tattoo? Giant back tattoo. It's like we're just still fully in the theory zone inside of the show. And I mean, like you're saying, Joe, maybe that's more on the audience than the showrunners.

But I don't know, it's a little early, I think, to maybe put the clamps on some of this. Let's take a break. and I have a theory I want to throw you guys. Hello, I'm Juliet Litman. And I am Joe House. Welcome to Ringer Food, the ringer's new hub for all your food-related content.

You may have known this feed as House of Carbs, and don't worry, that's not totally owing away. We will be launching two new shows on the feed, and the first is food news with me and David Chocoby. You may remember us from our days at Grantland, while Jacoby and I are back to go over the news, sample snacks, share some personal tales of food news, some global tales of food news.

Who knows what else is to come? And House, what are you going to be doing? Oh, my taste buds, my hungry homies, my culinary comrades, we are back. We've done it here to tell you that we are reigniting House of Corms with a whole new slate of tasty episodes throughout the year. We are starting with a football fracas, a gridiron gobble fest. We're doing NFL playoff potluck featuring taste tests of the iconic food item or items of every playoff city to determine which city reigns supreme. Ringer Food is starting up this Wednesday, January 12th. That's so soon.

So be sure to subscribe on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. So, Mal, you said something interesting there before we went to the break about how you caught up later with the show. you jumped in and you missed the week-to-week stuff, and you were bummed that you missed that. I think we're at a really interesting point in TV right now where Netflix allegedly upended the model and this whole binge watch thing, and we're going to dump all the episodes at once,

and this is a better way to do it. And I think part of the reason people thought it was a better way to do it was we didn't have as many good shows. So there weren't shows like a lot of the shows that we've had over the last couple years, whether it's Succession or Yellow Jackets or whatever you want to name. I think Yellow Jackets had been dumped as 10 episodes at once. This is a completely different experience, and it really compromises the show.

One of the great things about this is a lot like loss. It's week after week. It's talking about people in your life. It's reading the theories. It's going to whatever weird message boards you're going. It's texting people. Did you see that? It's looking forward to the next episode.

And the reason I bring this up is I know Joanna and Van are going to talk about Ozark later this week on Prestige, and they're going to dump all the Ozark episode. episodes. Hell yeah. I love Ozark too. It makes it really hard from a cultural standpoint, and especially for people like us and people who love this stuff when it's just all dumped. And now you have basically this two to three day window to Ozark. Osark, what'd you think? And then it's gone. Whereas Yellow Jackets lived for two and a half months. And if I was Netflix, I would really reconsider the binge thing. I would consider trickling out two to three episodes. for shows like Ozark, shows that provoke conversation theories, as Joanna called it,

theory culture. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I think. No, I've, you're like, I've been on this train for so long, mostly because I love what Mal was saying that week to week. I love having a podcast and discussing an episode and having people just, like, gather around and think about an episode, one episode of television for a week. Like, that's what a lot of these shows deserve, not all of them, but like a lot of them do deserve this. I was actually just thinking about this this morning. I was I was going to ask you guys if there was one show

that's currently binge that you wish were a week to week down. Stranger things. For sure. Stranger things. Yeah. Stranger things. For the ringer, that would have been, we would have dined on that for two and a month. I think like Outer Banks is a good example of a show that should absolutely be a binge show.

Right? We don't need. That doesn't need a week to week. That's like you watch four at once. I think honestly, billion. Billions could be like that too. Yeah. There's like candy shows, but then there's shows like, all right, things are moving and we're bobbing and weaving and I want to know what happened and what you think. To me, Ozark is like that. And I think dumping them all at once is a mistake.

That's how I feel about The Great, which is a Hulu show that is an incredible show that actually has some room for theory crafting, that is incredible production value, that they dump. And I just don't understand why. Like, it makes no sense to me. And so I think that, yeah, and what I've heard from various showrunners, like, off the record, is that more and more they are wanting to move away from the binge model because they feel like their shows are getting buried, especially since the Netflix approach is all binge and so much content at once. So we're going to not only dump your episodes, but your series is going to, like, debut at the same

time as a bunch of other series. And so, you know, whether or not it hits, you have a much, lower chance. And I think the creative- And they don't want to promote it either. They give you your real estate on their main page for like two, three days. And then you're off and they want to move on to a different show. So it's almost like a breakfast diner menu. The diner has, you know, 55 breakfast entrees. They just want to keep you moving. I don't want to like entirely shit on Netflix because certainly a lot of other platforms have followed Netflix. You know, like plenty of other people are doing the binge thing. But one of my favorite things that happened last year is that I was

looking for the Netflix film, the harder they fall, the week that it came out. And it was on my homepage, it was in their hidden gem section. And I was like, it's your own movie Netflix. And it just came out and you're putting it in a hidden gem section? What are you talking about? So like, yeah, it's very, it's very interesting. But I agree with you. Do you like the model of, of dumping like two or three a week? Because like Apple does that where they'll have, you know, or like HBO Max did that with Sex Lives of College girls where they would have like three half hours a week versus like like how they're doing sex in the city where it's like one terrible episode every week. And it just kind of drones on and on.

I think if it's a new show, I don't mind a like three or two episode dump and then one one one, which is like what they did with hacks. But, you know, the hybrid, which is Station 11 and flight attendant where it's like three, two, two, two, two. I don't like that as much. Like, give me a mini dump to get people, get people hooked, I understand. And then like, give me one. a week after that. What do you think, Mal?

What do you think, Matt? I've never liked the Amazon Prime hybrid model of, you know, dumping three at once for the premiere and then going weekly from there. Because in the interest of candor, despite everything I'm saying here about how I love the week to week and oh my God, here's everything we lose with the binge. Once you give me a taste of the binge model, it's all I want. I don't have the willpower or self-control to stop. And so when I watch the first three episodes of Invincible or I watch the three episodes of the boys on Amazon, I am then infuriated that I have to wait a week for the fourth episode. And it takes me a couple weeks then to get actually acclimated to what the rhythm of the show

ultimately will be. It's like a weird, needless reset. But I do think I'm in the minority of that opinion. It seems like the hybrid model is something that a lot of people like. It was fun with Peacemaker to get to see three episodes at once, though, for that's an HBO Mac show, like to get that initial dump, really get a feel for what the energy and vibe of that show is going to be, and then now we'll go weekly from there. So maybe I'm, maybe I'm warming to it. So Yellowjacket season two, I'm giving you a choice. You get all of them at once or you get it once a week. Once a week. Absolutely. Yeah, that's how I felt it. Once a week. All right, let's talk about Misty, who I think was the MVP of season one. I was watching, I was watching

the pilot. Yeah. And it's so fun to watch the pilot again going through the whole season. And Misty in the high school, when the soccer, her as the manager, is so fucking funny in multiple scenes where the coach is talking to the team and she's next to him, like almost like a flight attendant. Moved around. The pep rally. Every single thing is, even when they're all out parting. And she's such an outcast and she so badly wants to be part of something that all of her behavior makes sense. But then in this last episode, dare I say, this I think was the Christina Ricci Emmy Submission episode. When she's doing the, no, no, you cut, you take the head and the hands.

That's it. Just like moments like that, I thought the injecting the cigarette, she was just, she had this gleam in her eye. The reunion when she joins them to walk in. I just, I love so many moments. Yeah, amazing. Strutting into the reunion and everybody else watching them. gawking at them and this idea that they're these, you know, celebrities. She's like part of the team.

So Joina, Misty for MVP, yes or no? Of this episode, yes. No, of the season. Season? No, it's Shawna for me. Yeah. It's Shawna. But like for this episode, yeah.

The Misty, we got to go with the cocaine snorting for Emmy submission, though. That's just the single most memorable image from the entire season. I'm like the whole time she was talking to Jessica who's the reporter right or the the fixer the political fixer the whole time she's talking to her and I'm just like that lady is dead I was like she is no way

is she going to be fine but I want to have hidden inside of a cigarette cart and real Walter white shit right there oh right right right right right that's great oh rice and the cigarette you just brought me back so far back I need to go back to the reunion this is my one major phone to pick.

Nip-it. Well, it's such a big bone. I know what you're going to say. It's Allie in the year. Yeah. Okay, so they have Allie just for folks who aren't like carrying as much about this as we are. Broken leg. Broken leg soccer game, Allie.

Allie, yeah, who got her, is a freshman. You find out on the pilot, she's a freshman, right? And the rest of them are seniors, at least most of them. And she goes up to the reunion, class of 96, and she says, we of class of 96. She says, we, our class. Allie is not in 96. And if she had like... Not even close.

She's three years behind. Yeah. And if she had become some sort of like student relation, I don't know what that's called when you, you know, organize the reunions and you're not part of the class. I could see that. When she goes up and she goes like our class of 96, we went through this thing. I was like, Allie, babe, you weren't 96. It's a mammoth mistake. I don't understand.

Maybe she didn't go to word definition. Dot net to look up. Oh, my God, an incredible moment. Actually, me, it's so notable because they went out of their way to tell us in the pilot that she was a freshman that I almost have to assume, because I had the same thought, but I almost have to assume it's not a mistake. And that Allie, here's how I'm choosing to interpret it. Ali, you know, she talks about their trauma bond. Drama bond. Like, she has this weird sense of having missed out on the experience.

of the plane crash and has spent her ensuing high school years. Yes. And the rest of her life trying to glom on to this thing that she actually was not a part of. And if we learn in future, and it was fun to go back to the pilot because Allie is one of the people, adult Alley is one of the people who fakes star legend of person. Yeah. It's interviewing in the beginning. It's like, oh, my God. It's an adult alley.

No, but you need somebody in the reunion to say, the fuck, she wasn't even in our class. Yeah. Half a line fixes it. Yeah. Yeah, they really messed it up. Juliette Lewis from the table, someone from the table just being like, Randy, you know. Multiple shots deep alley. Did you want more from the reunion?

I felt like it was like two scenes short. I don't know whether they were just trying to keep the episode at a certain length, but I definitely, I wanted more interaction with the people from the class. It was so weird that they were there. And it was so weird that the slideshow's all about them. I just wanted to know more. I wanted like some drunk person to try to hit on Juliette Lewis. Like there were just ways to go. They didn't go.

It's tough. I mean, like I could have taken an entire episode of reunion, honestly. And it's tough because that's an opportunity that they've burned through and they can't have another reunion episode. Well, like, Succession would have grabbed it. They would have said reunion. We're here for 60 minutes. For the entire episode. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It did end prematurely. Like after the dance, you feel you're going to get more.

We talked about the middle episodes of this season, how you, it was a little slow, right? And I feel like you could have merged some of those and the reunion could have been episode nine leading us to episode 10 potentially. It's an epic. I've talked to a lot. I think a lot of people caught up to this show

like a third of the way through, right? Like a lot of people caught on towards the end of the season. And I think a lot of them binge those episodes. And so I think that's not- Cheerful holiday viewing. That's what I did. It doesn't feel that way for a lot of people. They binge the soft episodes in the middle.

And so it doesn't feel soft to them. But so I wonder how season two will feel for people. But I think it's interesting. Can I ask you a question if Tysa is supposed to have like a, the showrunners described it as a bifurcated personality, which seems sort of like a split personality disorder? Like is it too much to have Lottie psychosis and Tysa have this like sort of split personality, like two young women with like mental disorders on this same light? Doesn't it speak to like how damage they were from the island or from the island?

The forest? I mean, it's a split personality or a trauma response? Like, is that, okay, all right. Yeah, I think. I could take that. Let's talk about Taisa. Yeah. So, Joanna, last time we did this, I said one of my wishes for this show was Senator Taiza.

You called it. It's such a good wrinkle now. She's gaining more and more power. And yet she is also a full-fledged lunatic. We have the subplot of her former lover who, who is definitely going to be dead, I would say, by probably the fourth episode of the second season because she has to go because she knows too much.

Oh, no. Sammy would be fine. Yeah, she has to go. Senator Taisa will get rid of her. But the plot of her gaining more and more power, and you mentioned before how they planned out five seasons. President Taiza? Can't help but wonder of President Taiza's where this going.

I would love President Taisa. I would love that. Well, the question is, so I think the idea, is supposed to be that her alter ego was like doing all this stuff and keeping the altar dirt, dirt, the dirt eater?

The dirt eater? The dark one or whatever was keeping the altar. But I think the smile, according to the showowner's, the smile is supposed to indicate that like her darker alter ego is taking the wheel.

It's sort of like Dexter's dark passenger sort of like burbling up into her consciousness. See, I don't want the showrunners to tell me that. Okay. I'm sorry. I'm sorry that I told you. No, no. It's just like, like, let me figure that out.

But no, that was definitely the insinuation. There seems like a little trumpish, maybe like a little nod, like a slight tiny nod. Do you do you two think it's like definitive, though, that tie is responsible for dear sweet biscuits, demise and the altar that we saw in the secret cellar room? Oh, you think it could be the sun? No, could it be the cult? Could it be Lottie's cult? Well, I think the cult could be funding Tisa.

Right. Like the fact that her win, her victory in the election is such a surprise, like lends credence to the idea that another force could be pulling the strings there, right, and manipulating the election in some way, Lottie and the cult, possibly. And we know, again, like the bank account and everything else that we learn with the Susie call, like Lottie has reach, right? Lottie's cult has reached. So maybe they're manipulating the outcome

because they want Tye in a position of power. So I thought there were three possibilities with the seller reveal. One, Tye did it, right? This is what's happening when she's sleepwalking. She is not conscious of what she is doing or not fully at least of what she is doing. Sleepwalk murder.

This would be my defense for any murder I commit. There you go. Two, she is actually aligned with Lottie in some way. And that will be a reveal that unspools over time. That's my least favorite theory of the three. Or three, the Lottie's cult is responsible for this. And the fact that they're able to penetrate the depths of somebody's home is there to speak to and reinforce their reach and their power. The fact that, and I can't tell you how little interest I have in going freeze frame on a dead animal's death scene of a dead animal.

And yet I did for the sake of this podcast. You know, the fact that it's not just Deer Sweet Biscuits' head, but a heart, right? And what does that match? That matches the shot of Lottie placing the bare heart into her hollowed out tree altar. But also, who were the two people behind her, right? It's Misty and Van.

And Van. And Van, who's Van, so maybe she pulls tie into the whole thing and that's our fond of it. Because like what we saw in the finale, and I agree with you, Mallory, those are all viable. options, I completely agree with you. I do think that it's, I do think that it's tie, but I think it's possible

that it could have been the cult. But I think it's tie. No son, no chance for the sun being possessed by... Sammy? Oh, no. Yeah. I mean, Sammy is pretty weird. Oh, that's another sort of Walt comp of Sammy. I'm not rolling out Sammy.

That's what I'm saying. Sammy's going to disappear also because he's getting too tall. That's probably what's going to happen to Sammy. But I think that, I think that what we, we saw in the finale is that Ty was sort of indulging Van because Ty, a young teenage Thai is indulging Van because they're in love and Van believes in this thing. So I was just trying to shake out sort of the dynamics of this cult going forward.

Like I could see Ty being a part of it, but reluctantly and then it goes too far. Do you know what I mean? And she would step back to the side of, I think Nat and Travis are never going to be a part of it. And I can see, you know, Shauna. How do you explain Misty and Van? as the two. Is that from that incident in the wilderness with the wolf or like, like, or the whether it was a wolf or not? But how are those the first two who are preaching at the altar of Lottie? Van, I think it's pretty explicit in terms of her talking about what she saw when she was

on the pyres of like that. With Misty, it makes sense to me because Misty is like the ultimate follower, right? Like she's the ultimate I want to belong. Yeah. You know, and if she invests early in this cult, like, you know, she can feel like an important lieutenant in this. It's like survivor. It's like when they had the factions. Yeah, you're a lion's going to get in early. Let's go. We're going to the final three.

Someone, I think it was actually, I think it was our very own Alison Herman floated to me this theory that Misty in the modern timeline is a cult plant the whole time. That she's still working for Lottie

in the current timeline. I don't think that's the case. I think there's going to be something that's going to happen that's going to make Misty to betray Lottie, et cetera, and go back to the other side. Missy's the one character I would believe, like, almost anything for her with at this point. Yeah, she's in the Mike Tyson zone. Yeah, in a hundred different directions that I'd be right there along for the ride. I think that part of what was effective about, because you have, to the question about why those two, why Van and Misty behind Lottie and when they're kneeling down, I thought that was really effective as like a button on season one.

because we know that Misty is with the antler queen from the pilot. She's the only face we see. She lifts the fur at the end of that episode, right? So we see eight figures. There's the Antler Queen in the middle, three on either side, and then Misty. We know Misty is with that clan. And to get back to like the point you made in the last pod that you all did about this, Joe, about kind of what the log line of the show is, like they, it's literally, they've told us what

the show will be about. It's about competing clans, right? Descending into Saviessen. clans plural, clans plural. This series chronicles their descent from a complicated but thriving team to savage clans. That's on the Showtime website for the show. And that again is note for note, Lord of the Flies, right? Who is with Jack and who is with Ralph?

So Lottie's Jack. And the question of who is aligning with Jack, we needed to see Misty there to just fully reinforce Lottie as Antler Queen. I think we had it by that point. But it's just one more thing that sort of says to us, this is that clan. This is the clan that's building. And there are many different paths to that moment. It can be because you want a sense of belonging and you see a way in like Misty. It can be because you've had this genuinely life-altering traumatic experience like Van.

And I think there will be many other pathways for other people. So that gets back to that larger question of like, what happened with the bear and this overall supernatural element? I think that one of the reasons I'm most compelled by the show is because right now, it doesn't matter to me what the answer. is or what happened. It matters what the characters believe. And so for the people who watch Lottie with the bear and think, something is happening here, or I saw the attic, right? To me, one of the actual, like, there might be something afoot here, bits of evidence. It's just that they haven't been found. Like, why have they not been found, actually? You know, there's the, the Misty destroys the black box, but it was, there was a signal for a while. There would be a last known location. Is there something

that is preventing people? Is there some force that is preventing people from finding them? in some way. But is the island moving? Sorry. It says someone turned the wheel. Someone turned the front of the back wheel. The lines about like the beach plane that they discover the beachcraft

and the lost note, of course, like not wanting them to leave. The guy in the Jackie Shana death dream, I thought that was Jackie's dream for the record, but it seems like most people think it was Shannas. The bear laying down for Lottie, the attic sequence, all of this.

Is it Smoky and Jacob and the island and lost? Or is it Lord of the Flies? Is it Beelzebub? Is it the fact that the devil is actually inside of us? Either of those is compelling to me. I think it's about which thing the characters believe. And so that ultimately I think will be the divide of the clans.

Is who believes that something natural is afoot and who doesn't? That will be what splits them. Who believes that Lottie is actually a visionary? And who believes that she's confused for a lot for men? She did speak French. She spoke French. I mean, that was impressive. I'm in the camp that it was Jackie's dream and Shana entered it through some portal.

I thought Sean had just woke up, to be honest. I like it as a shared dream. I like it as a shared dream. Being called to death. Can we go to Natalie really quick? So we think Natalie's going to kill herself. It's really brilliant editing where right when you think she's going to pull the trigger, the door, somebody pounds on the door.

And for a second, you think, oh my God, she did it, but then she's still there. Were you, were either of you like 100% convinced that Natalie would have made that choice. Like that said, I'm just blowing my head off. Did you, did you think it got to that dark of a place? Or was it just a drama crutch to have the ending that they had? Oh, I don't know. She seemed so vulnerable and so on the verge, like the whole season. So because of the brilliant way Juliet Lewis was playing her. And I think, like, she had a drive, a purpose, which was to find out, like, find Travis and find what happened to Travis. And having that sort of taken away from her that. So that's it. She just was in the abyss at that point. She's like, I got nothing.

I got nothing. I've lost Travis, and I've got nothing left. But I'm so, you know, was I certain that Juliette Lewis wasn't going to be on the show anymore? No, like, I was like, they're not going to let Juliet Lewis go. So I didn't think she was actually going to die. That's a good point. Yeah. That was one of the things definitely that stood out rewatching the pilot after seeing the finale is the way that Nat speaks in her last group session as she's about to leave rehab about purpose

and the need for that purpose to guide you. And like, what is the last thing that she does? before she picks up the gun, what is the last thing she puts away? It's the pictures of Travis. I will say, I just love Nat and Travis. Like, when they're hugging, he's like, I fucking love you, Natalie. I was like, this is great. I really, you know, obviously it seems a little silly to say, I'm rooting for them, given everything that we know that happens, but I am deeply invested in their relationship. And one of the things, I will say this about the showrunner interviews, one of the things that I was like, oh, this is a cool thing that they've shared with us that I'm glad I know

is the discussion about a new timeline. One of the things that they mentioned in the, in the interview that they did with our pal Allen Seppin Wall at Rolling Stone is talking about like this in between period that they're really interested in mining. I what do you talk about like the late 2000s? Yeah. They said a third. Yeah. Like everything in between those two timelines, everything between 96 and 2021. They said, we'll see what happened in between the teen timeline and adult timeline. Right. Also, what happened in the, what happened in the nationals?

Who won? I have thought about this, like the alternate 96 timeline where we just see like, it's in Seattle, right? Isn't that where they were home? I want to know who, at least who made the finals. Hey, we have to go soon. So let's make, we could do round rob and let's make some predictions. Joanne, you go first.

Give us a prediction. Okay. I'm a theory prediction for season two. with. I'm with Reddit on team Shannon Soseman as adult Lottie. I love this casting. Oh my God. I've always loved her. I love Shannon Soseman. I'm a big fan. They figured out that like she falls. I think she's pretty tall. I think they follow she follows a bunch of different yellow jackets, actresses and the yellow jacket's costume designer follows her. This is classic classic. Oh, she's five eight. That's an amazing research thing. I can't Classic Reddit. Classic Reddit. So yeah, Shannon Soseman.

Wow. The actress who plays Lottie, Courtney Eaton, has been in a Vulture interview last week, was like, I really would prefer they not cast a white woman as the adult version of me because I am of like Asian and Maori descent. And I would like someone who's not white. And Shannon Soseman is, at least of Hawaiian descent. So there is that. So yeah, Shannon Soseman. Bring her back. I miss her. Now, first prediction. Most of my things are questions, not predictions. First prediction is I do still think that Coach Ben will be the first one they eat. That is my prediction. I just think it's too soon to eat Jackie. I just, the only chance they have to eat Jackie is if the ground is suddenly too frozen to bury her. And they have to, like, store her body in the ice and then some time passes. And they're like, well, now maybe we should eat Jackie.

But I'm going to say, coach, Ben, first, first to be consumed. I think that's another step towards or step away from a real world authority, right? He's the adult. Right. And he's like the adult male, right? What are you going to do about it? They keep saying it, right? Yeah.

All right, my first prediction. Taisa needs to get rid of her ex-wife. She knows too much. All right. A murder. What better person to eagerly help out with a murder than our girl Misty? Misty. She's ready.

Bring her in. She's ready. knows how to dispose bodies. She will happily do it. She desperately wants to be part of this team in every conceivable way. And I think I think that's where this goes. I think Misty on the behalf of Ty murders the ex-wife. All right, Joanna, you're up again. So a big question is who's the girl in the pit, right? Because it's not Jackie and it's not Lottie. And those were like the two like frontrunners of who might be in the pit. So there's this girl who's not quite a red shirt, you know, but not quite a lead yet. Her name's Mari.

She's my pick too. Yeah, Mari in the pit. So I feel like they need to bring Mari up as like a more main character going forward and then put her in the pit. Oh, wait. Before we go to next prediction, let's talk about that because that's an important piece. That's like the, who are the idiots on loss that everybody hated Palo and the other person? Oh, Nikki and Paolo. Nicky and Paolo were they're like, we need some more characters and all of a sudden they did. So they have the ability to do this because there's another one.

There's a black teammate that we see in the background, Akila, who that, that, that we have no backstory for either. So maybe those are the two that don't elevate. She's Alley's replacement, right? There are a few members of the team and of the plane crash who we don't know at all. Yeah. Right. Like there's a lot of background shots.

A lot of opportunity to Nikki and Paul or someone. We can have back storylines and do the whole thing. All right. Now, next prediction. Can I make a prediction that the creators have already debunked? I just still feel that Adam is Hobby. Yeah. I'm actually unwilling to like a.

of this. I'm unwilling. I'm sorry. There's just too much supporting events. I actually, Joanna, I think that what you shared is earlier is genuinely compelling and very thematically rich, and I ultimately would be satisfied by it and find it quite profound. Right now, I still think that Adam is hobby. I'm in a household with another Adam, and he is partial to another theory that the creators have debunked, which is that Adam is Sean his baby. and that she fucked and killed her own kid, which would have been a pretty gnarly outcome. The math doesn't quite add up there.

The baby should be 25, right, 24, 25. And we learn on the local news report that Adam is 36. That math, though, does align with Adam being Javi. And the back tat with this, like, mystical symbolism in these mountain ranges. Again, maybe it's just there to spark discussion, but I'm compelled by it. The artist thing, we know that Javi was exploring. some arts and crafts leisure time out in the wilderness. He carved the little wolf that we keep seeing on the windowsill.

There's like a similar kind of carving in Adam's apartment and just that he called, Hobby calls it an art project. And where is Hobby? Where is Harvey? He's gone. Shauna tells him in the Panolitan episode to run and they can't find him in the finale. So does he go off and then make his way back to them in the present day timeline? I'm not willing to let go of it.

What do you both think? I think it's not Hobby. I think they intentionally laid all those crumbs so that you would think it's hobby. I agree. One more thing that stood out in the pilot, which I'd completely forgot about, is that when Shana and Jeff were fucking in the car, she's like, if you come inside of me, I'm going to raise our baby to come back and kill you. Kill you.

Notable. Oh, that is, that's notable. I mean, and it's the kind of clue, because if you rewatch the season, there's so many times that, like, Jackie's like, I'm cold, or Shauna's like, here, I found you some extra blank. There's all these like I'm cold references to Jackie before she freezes to death. That's pretty fun on a rewatch. My second prediction. Yeah.

I don't think they eat the baby. What about the chicken dream though? I think we'll see the baby. I think because we're going full cult right now, right? That baby has to be sacrificed. There's got to be some sort of sacrificial baby element where that's like the ultimate. So do you think why he takes it though? And that's part of what leads?

to the fracture? Or do you think Shauna would participate? I can't see Shawna doing it. No. I think the baby becomes, I think Shauna, once she has the baby, protective of the baby, but I think Lottie sees it as her chance to sacrifice the baby to the gods. And maybe that becomes a schism in the group.

Very dark. Baby related. Because when you think about it, yeah, baby, like, yeah, they could eat the baby, but not a lot of meat going around. Babies are like, what, 20 pounds? Guys. I mean, come on. This is going to be very grim.

Almost no matter what. The coach is like six times as much food. Like you're going to focus on him first. His thigh alone, I think, is more than a baby. They could just raise the baby. Like, you know, Claire and Aaron, another lost comp. You know what? I bet Lottie still has the baby.

The baby's in the cult. I could see the baby being in the cult. Yeah. Oh, that's a good prediction. So the baby's alive and it's in the court. Lottie has stolen the baby. Yeah. I like that.

Do you think Adam was in the cult? Sent by Lottie? whether or not he's hobby. Do you want me to tell you what the showrunners said on that? Well, what do you think? I did think so. But you don't anymore. No.

Well, one other thing with Lottie being alive and in charge of a cult is we've also established that she's pretty wealthy. Yeah. But she's also draining the bank account of like how much money can Travis have had? Like why are they draining his bank account, you know? Maybe there was something in there that linked him to some sort of activity and they just wanted to close the account to maybe hobby like hobby being his potential next of kin like could speak to hobby being in the cult and maybe hobby has the

ability to train his bank account uh one more prediction one more uh adult dream cast i can't remember if we talked about this last week but we must have uh julia styles for adult van oh that would be interesting right i think she's available she's from that 90s yeah that 90s world 10 things i ever said I forget who brought up Jay Love, Jennifer Love Hewitt, but ever since then, I've been excited for her just to come back in some form. One more prediction for us, Joanna? Or Mel, do you have one? Oh, yeah, or Mel.

I think we'll see Van in the present-day timeline next season, for sure. I think Van will be in the cult. We're already on the record with that in this episode, just to put it here as well. What other predictions? You knew they were getting a goalie. The goalie says always always the most fearless one on the team. So she had to join the cult.

I love it. I think that in terms of clan allegiances in the wilderness, I think the thing I'm most interested in is whether Ty temporarily aligns with. I think so. Lottie because she wants to support Van, but I can't see her doing that long term. I think she just doesn't believe in it. And ultimately there will be a rift there.

But I could see her there in season two because she wants to support Van. And then she pulls apart. And that's one of the really like seismic divides that shakes them up before they start trying to track. each other in pits and eat each other. But something I love is this idea that, like, of this, you know, because you talked about like the split personality being a trauma response to the wilderness with Ty. And I think that's true.

But I think it also connects back to like the pilot where she breaks Ali's leg. Like that's, that I think, you know, that was her intention was to get Allie out of the game. And did she do it the way that she was going to said, said she was going to do it? No. But like some force within her broke that girl's leg. You know what I mean? Well, she also sweet. I forgot when I realized.

watched, she switched teams to be, you have like the starters in the backup. She went out of the backup so she could slide tackle. I have one more season two thing. It's not really a prediction. It's more like intuition. The winter's coming, right? Yeah. So on the island, as we're calling it, even though it's the wilderness, in the wilderness,

that can sit, that could really sustain season two. Season one's about Jackie losing, like just on the island, Jackie losing her power, Lottie gaining the power. Ultimately, that's like the dynamic, right? A new pope has been crowd, yeah. Yeah. Season two is the elements now. It's super cold, snow. How do we survive? And who's in charge of the question, how do we survive? Is to me, on the island, that becomes the pivotal question. And that's how Lottie gains the power, right? She has this mystical ability to make a bear bow to her and to speak French and do all the these things, she'll probably figure out how they can survive because ultimately they should all

die within two months in freezing cold in Canada with no clothes. Like this should be a wrap. Somehow they survive. So how do they survive? They've got shelter at the end of the day. Like they have a cabin. Did you see how cold it was though? Were they lured to the cabin by that flashing light or did that just happen to be a reflection on a window? Like yeah, exactly. Again, that's another supernatural or just sort of like happenstance question. And why was there a cabin there in the middle of nowhere. Well, that's the more, that's actually the more interesting question, ultimately. How do you even get to that cabin? What was that French Canadian guy doing there? Right. And why was that symbol carved into the trees? I have a lot of questions. And like, that's the thing.

What is interesting about the, I know we have to go, but like, what's interesting about the reaction to the finale is they're like, not enough happen. Some people are like, not enough happened. Not enough mysteries were made. I was like, Jack is dead. And I have a lot of questions. And there's a new cults, a new cult in town. Come on. who cannot be excited for season two when there's a new Colton town? I think it was just the right balance. Bill, to that point, like I would, I think I would hazard a guess

that Lottie actually doesn't take control in season two. I think that for the amount of runway they want to cover, she has to have a smaller following at first and build over time. I mean, I guess the other way you do it is that everybody rallies around her

and then kind of freaks out and they start to break away. But I don't think we could just get our kind of even split right away. we have to work toward the recalibration slowly over time. And I think that everybody aligning behind the person whose hands are drenched in blood, who's kneeling in the snow, praying to a bare heart and a tree stump, I needed to take a little more time for the dozen plus people who are still there,

yeah, to opt into that. And I think we have to keep in mind that they're out there for 19 months. And so there's a whole other winter a year away, you know, if they've only been there for like four-ish months at this point. point, right? So we have winter and we have the pregnancy as that evolves too. I have an important question for both of you. Yeah. All right. So you're on the team. Yeah. You're just what? You're one of the people that we don't have even a backstory for you yet, but you're on the team and you're just, you're in the background. You're hanging out of the Kila. Yeah. We're on the bench.

Lottie makes the, like if I'm on this team and Lottie, that bear bows to Lottie, Lottie stabs the bear after I've seen her talk French. At that point, I'm like, I'm a Lottie. You are my leader. Are we going to go bring the bear heart over to that weird tree stump? I'm in. I will happily bow behind you. That is the person I am casting, you know, my apples behind.

Who else would be the leader candidates now that Jackie's gone? I don't even know who the other people would be. At Nat, Ty, I think that ultimately Ty will be the leader of, ultimately Ty will be the leader of the other of the other camp, I think. So you think it's Ty versus Lottie. Yeah, Ty or Shawna, I think.

But we think from the last couple scenes of the final episode of this season, Ty's doing a sacrifice and the symbols there, which makes me think she's, has some tie to the- I think she splits with, I think she goes.

Oh, so you think the cult might have killed the dog and put that thing. That's what Mallory. That's what I think. Yeah. At least I think it's a real possibility. I think it is a possible. I think we should leave our minds up to it now.

I think the other thing that's important is that we're going to see these characters make different choices over time. Because even if, again, one of the things that was really interesting about returning to the pilot is like where these characters are with each other in the present day and trying to reconcile that with what they might have been through and what sides they might have been on out in the wilderness. And I think that there have to be shifting allegiances. That was like a really fun season of Lost when they did the flash forwards.

And you were constantly trying to do the calculus of like how did the oceanics like, how did this group make it off the island when they're so scattered? So you're just constantly like following the shifting allegiances and trying to track, like, how are these people going to get home the way that they do? We also have, we have dead reporter in a car, which is another subplot, right? Everybody knows she was working on a story about the team. Not that far from Misty's house. Like, is Misty going to leave her there?

Or is she going to bury a torso? Misty loves disposing a body. She'll be on the scene in a hurry, I think. That's a really risky public way to kill her if she was going to just dispose the body anyway. Do you know what I mean? Like, why not just kill her in your home where you have control over the situation?

She's going to let the authorities figure up and it's just going to look like an overdose, right? Last thing before we go, I do think, I don't think a lot of people have Showtime these days, especially the under 30 people where I think... A lot of people watch this show in Dexter, though. Dexter, yeah. And it does feel like Showtime got a little bit of its mojo back.

And from a catch-up, I have a lot of people just anecdotally in my life who did not watch this show when it was coming out. But I single-handedly domineered multiple people in my life and cowered them into watching it. But just like, if you like TV, how are you not watching this? Like I don't even let's never have another TV conversation again if you're out on the show. So I do wonder, as we head towards season two, whenever that is, I do think a lot of people are going to catch up. And if Showtime's smart, they're going to do like free three-month things and really drive people to the show. Because this is the best chance they've had for a hit show really since Homeland.

And people would say Billions. I know Billions was a huge show. But Homeland was in the ether week after week with people trying to figure it out in a way that I don't, as much as I love Billions, billions was never in the ether like that. We love that because it was entertaining. This is different. And I do think season two will be a much bigger deal than season one. What was that stat on the Dexter finale, Mal, that it was the most watched thing on Showtime ever, was the Dexter Revival finale that just aired?

So, like, which is wild to me. I didn't know that. Showtime, coming back. I didn't know that the revival was that popular. The surge of viewership inspire Showtime to fix its streaming app. That is my sincerest hope. Which one? The normal Showtime app or the Showtime Anytime app if you subscribe to Showtime.

First of all, they have two apps, which is super confusing. You could have either. Whichever one logs me out every 24 hours. I know we keep trying to go, but one last request from you, Bill. Yeah. Number one music request for season two. Oh, yeah. You know, nitpicks for me in the last episode, I didn't think the music was strong enough.

I really thought. It was a good one. They had a couple ones. I touched myself at a high school reunion. I caught it. That's incredible. The finals, baby. I like Teranasa bass, but I really wanted, like.

an iconic 95 or 96 song in there. They didn't do that. I also think like anytime there's obvious blood in the basement on the floor like that, I just find it hard to believe nobody's going to go, oh, wait, I should either clean up the blood or that's weird. Why is there blood there? There's just blood on the basement for how long was that dog down there? Like two weeks?

Nobody notices that when they're doing laundry. I'm positive. I would notice a big blotch of blood in my basement. They were largely out of the house, though. So that's helpful in that respect. Yeah, listen, Joanne, in answer your very important question, there's a lot of ones left.

I mean, I don't think we had Stone Temple pilots. I don't think we heard from them. We only had one whole song. As I texted you guys, the Jacob Dylan is just furious. He hasn't gotten royalties yet from these multiple wallflower songs. Counting crows have been completely overlooked so far. Oh, man.

Adam, give Adam. They did one cranberry song, right? Yes, they did. They didn't do like a super intense Toriamos song yet. I think they have a lot of options left. To ride the lost tailwind all the way to the end here, Oasis Wonderwall. I was just going to say where's Wonderwall?

It's honestly a glaring omission for people who were teens at that age. Anyway, here's Wonderwall. Let's do it. Well, sometimes these songs are expensive, right? That was what was amazing with Euphoria. That might just be too much money. The first episode of Euphoria, they must have spent over a million bucks on songs. They used hit them up from Tupac.

I can't even imagine how expensive that was. So I'm sure if you look at the first episode of this where they use like smashing pumpkins today and they use some big ones. And then they kind of had to get a little more picky, choosy. But I think I bet the budget increases for that because the music's such a big part of this show. All right. This is great. We went way too long. We were torturing our producer.

Sasha. Sasha Shaw, thanks for producing it. Even though she doesn't watch the show and had no idea what we're talking about. Spoiler warning for Sasha. Sorry, Sasha. You can hear Joanna talking about Ozark later this week. And you can hear her talking about Euphoria every Sunday night with Nora Princiata. You can hear Mallory on the Ringerverse pod with Joanna. With Joe.

And you can hear Mallory on the ringer NFL show as well. It was good to see both of you. What a show. It's delightful to be on. I'm not giving an A plus, but I'm giving it a solid, lovable A. I was B plus A minus last time we talked. The finale put in an A minus for me. I think this is a A minus C-S.

What do you have about? A-minus or A? I'm going to go with an A drawn in the blood of the bear that is nourishing us through this winter. And not a beloved pet. Good to see you. All right, bye. Margarita and taste your escape. It's America's number one for a reason. Cayman Jack is a premium malt beverage with flavors. Please drink responsibly. Camin Jack beverage company in Chicago, Illinois.