The Problem With Jon Stewart - History (and Trump) Repeats with Jon Meacham

Episode Date: January 16, 2025

As America braces for a second Trump administration, we're joined by historian Jon Meacham to place our current moment within the broader sweep of U.S. history. Together, we examine whether Trump's explicit rhetoric about territorial expansion and open billionaire support truly represents something unprecedented, reflect on how the Biden administration might be remembered, and consider what patterns from our past tell us about America's future. Follow The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart on social media for more:  > YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@weeklyshowpodcast > Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/weeklyshowpodcast > TikTok: https://tiktok.com/@weeklyshowpodcast  > X: https://x.com/weeklyshowpod   > BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/theweeklyshowpodcast.com Host/Executive Producer – Jon Stewart Executive Producer – James Dixon Executive Producer – Chris McShane Executive Producer – Caity Gray Lead Producer – Lauren Walker Producer – Brittany Mehmedovic  Video Editor & Engineer – Rob Vitolo Audio Editor & Engineer – Nicole Boyce Researcher & Associate Producer – Gillian Spear Music by Hansdle Hsu — This podcast is brought to you by: ZipRecruiter Try it for free at this exclusive web address: ziprecruiter.com/ZipWeekly Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Well, hello, everybody. How have you been? It's John Stewart. It's the weekly show pod. We are back after a three-year absence. Or what it feels like a three-year absence in that, boy, an awful lot of ups and downs and living has been put into those three years. This is being taped midweek of before the inauguration, which will take place, I believe.

I believe. although everything seems to be for some reason everything with this transfer of power seems to be going very smoothly as I had posited earlier it is amazing how the peaceful transfer of power can occur when you don't act like a little bitch when you lose but so so that is occurring as of this recording there is still some Los Angeles left please God let this nightmare for those folks be done and and let the healing and rebuilding of that area, which is going to be a Herculean and emotional task. Please let that start in this moment. Boy, what an awful.

And it really, I think, accentuates the kind of tenuous moment that I think a lot of people are feeling themselves in. you know, as we move towards this inauguration day. And no one can know what's going to happen. But boy, trepidation is our constant companion as we lead into this. We've been promised shock and awe and not in the good way, I don't believe. You know, there are those moments of anticipation that you have. You know, there's some anticipatory moments where you're like, oh, tomorrow, it's my birthday and we're having an ice cream bar.

And then there's this moment of anticipation, which feels a little bit more like, I think my parents are sending me forcefully to a wilderness camp. There is, I just, boy, you feel like you're staring down the barrel of something not fun. You know, there are a lot of things people can shoot at you through a barrel, one of them being a t-shirt at a sporting event. And that's fun. But this doesn't appear to be one of those moments. but obviously I want to withhold a certain judgment. But in these moments, I do find myself looking for historical perspective and solace. Truly, like it does help me to view it through the prism of the cycles that we've been through in the country and the other up and down cycles and the terrible tribulations and the interesting triumphs and the unexpected moments.

And so the guest today on our, on our first pod back of 2025 is someone who I think is most able to provide that kind of perspective and contents and context and thoughtfulness. So I'm just going to damn get to it for God's sakes. So let's do it. Welcome back, weekly show pod and our first guest. Folks, I can't think of anybody that I would rather talk to in this moment in time than the fabulous historian, Bon Vivant, gentleman and scholar. Bon vivant. John Meacham, presidential historian, author of And There Was Light, a biography of Lincoln. John, welcome.

John. Thank you for joining us in this. this moment of anticipation. Bon vivant. I love this. I love this. Thank you. Welcome to the salon.

Thank you so much for being here. You know, there's so much to talk about, but I want to go off of something that you've said often, which is politicians are mirrors of who we are in many respects and not molders. I think that's such a. an interesting concept. With Trump, then, what is the mirror here? Because he feels like a molder, if you could call him that. But what's the mirror?

What is your sense of what this moment is saying about us? Well, not to get too lost in the metaphor, but that's what I do. So we might as well. To mold, you have to amass power. And in that way, you tend to mirror, right? So President Trump, and I just want to say something, I'm going to call him President Trump because one of the things that drove me crazy in the last 48 months was this snarky tone on the right, which was there was this creature who was in power called Biden.

So they didn't call him President Biden. They just said Biden. I swear to God, you watch Fox all day long. And it's just, and it, oh, President Trump is a mirror of, I think, our most basic instincts. I think that he has deepened and exacerbated many of our worst characteristics. And one of the arguments that we have. have, and I have this with, you know, people who are in power at the moment and will be for at least, you know, 48 more hours.

Right. Is people will say, this isn't who we are. Well, of course it's who we are. We've lived out of compliance with the Declaration of Independence far more often than we've lived in compliance with it. That's not to say, oh, therefore, it's all going to work out. or let's not do anything about that. Unpacked that, though, a little bit because you, that's such an interesting thought

because I unpacked, in terms of living outside the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution, I've always sort of had that sense, you know, you have this founding document that says all men are created equal. And within the same document, some men are considered three-fifths of a human. Yeah. Different document, but yeah. Is that the compliance, right, different document, but is that the compliance you're talking about? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so we began the national experiment voluntarily by saying that we hold

these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal. Didn't have to do that, but Jefferson, on one of the great committees of all time, Jefferson, Franklin, Sherman, Livingston, and Adams, I would assign them anything to do. It must have been a great deck, you know, when Franklin ran through the deck. A white guy, a flawed 33-year-old white guy, slave owner, articulated an ideal of human liberty, unique in that time and place for someone with power to articulate that. So that's, you know, people who look like me did, you know, sort of set the standard.

And then, as you say, we immediately, 30 seconds later fell short of it. Right. So 1776 to 1865, we allowed human enslavement. So out of compliance, seems to me, we had a brief period after the Civil War where, white folks who look like me down here in the South could not vote because a lot of folks wouldn't take an oath back into the United States. Black folks could vote very briefly. And then there's a white reaction, white supremacist reaction in the 1870s. So let's just say for 10 years we were in compliance. Okay. So it's, right? We got 10. Seriously, think about it.

No, you're, you're dead on. Then we go back out of it. Right. From really the 1876 election, which pulled federal troops out of the South, it's a price of Hayes meeting Tilden. And then we really roll until 1965, where separate accommodations, incredible obstacles to franchise. And so basically, and there's a frequent argument about this, I believe it. We'll be celebrating the 250th anniversary in a couple of years. I think we're 60 years old. I think we were founded in 1965.

And in many ways to bring this to exactly to where we are, President Trump is in many ways a reaction to the implications of what unfolded in the country in 1964 and 65. In terms of the voting rights act, are you talking also about immigration at that time? In terms of becoming a genuine, well, both, becoming a genuine, multi-ethnic, multiracial democracy. And you're right, it was the Civil Rights Act, it was the Voting Rights Act, and it was the Immigration and Nationality Act in 1965. Which changed the demographic or the country. It moved sort of immigration from that more Western European model to something that was browner. Right. And for those who think that, oh, boy, if only it could be like it was in the old days, what the 1965 Act did was repealed.

the restrictive 1924 Act, which, as you say, established these national quotas that emphasized Northern Europe. And that's what was in place when the Roosevelt administration chose to follow the letter of the law and not allow more refugees in from Nazi Germany. So that's how this matters. Right, right. So I, you know, look, this is who we are. Right. I have argued for a long time, you and I've had this argument, that the remarkable thing about the country is that we get as much right as we do. And that's a really easy thing for me to say. You know, I'm a boringly heterosexual white southern male episcopatee, right? Is that your Tinder? Is that your Tinder profile? Is that what's on there? Boring heterosexual white, white southern male episcopaean. All right. You know, and we had a hell of our. run. Yeah, I'm intrigued. Yeah, we had about 10,000 years. And, and there are a lot of folks who are thinking, wait a minute, we're not going to be in charge. And this is a reaction to that. Or it's a loss of absolute power. It's sort of this idea that that would be the default setting of

the country. And that is the quote unquote meritocracy and that anything that deviates from that. And so what does it say then? Because I think this brings it back to your interesting point, which is, and we have chosen a kind of retreat from that. You know, 2016 was kind of felt like an anomaly. The popular vote was lost. It was his prize. This feels, it's not, you know, Reagan winning 49 states,

but it's a much stronger argument to a broader coalition and a choice that the country made a choice. And I'm wondering, does it reflect, and maybe this is a broader point for America in general, but does it reflect? It's a democratic repudiation in some respects of democracy. If that contradiction can make sense. Donald Trump clearly has run in a manner that says, I want to accrue more power in the executive than maybe the founders in the Constitution are comfortable with. I want the Supreme Court to grant me a

immunities that seem utterly at odds with so many of the other checks and balances that go along there. And it is a democratic approval in some ways of kind of an anti or less democratic movement. Does that make sense? The one edit I would make is it's a populist retreat from democracy. Why do you say things better than I do? I'm sure. I know, I know. I really don't care for that. I know, I know. And you are Edward R. Murrow.

You should be a writer. If Edward R. Murrow and Johnny Carson had a baby, it's you. Are they allowed to do that now? Probably not. They are now. They wouldn't have been allowed to do that a few years ago, but they're allowed to do it now. So is that, does that put us at more risk then as this goes along? Yes.

Yes, it does. And I'm not trying to be alarmist, right? No, no, no. I understand. I thought Trump was a difference of degree but not kind. You talked about 16, until 2020. And really the aftermath of the election. I mean, the stuff he did was reprehensible.

There was a corrosion of the presidency as an institution that I revere. I found myself with my children trying to explain why their father spends his time recording the history of something that seemed so flawed. And, oh, wow, you even thought of it in a manner of, I've spent my life kind of revering the history of this system and to watch it be so casually discarded, made you question the things that you were doing. Why record something that is now this, I don't know, tenuous? Yes.

And that part, the answer to that part should be, well, and in fact, that is the answer I have, which is the fact that it is tenuous and contingent means we have to tell the stories of moments of both peril and possibility because this is what we've got. And so I didn't question the efficacy of the work, if that makes sense. Yeah. I did it, but it was an emotional sadness. It was here, and here's just a quick story about it. So on Ash Wednesday, 2021,

I'm sure you remember where you were. You know me. I'm the guy with the pots with the ashes. He's going, do whatever you want. Somebody's got to gather them. Burning the palms. That's right. But I remember because I was going up to, I was at a meeting in Washington.

And I had my daughter, who was then 16, 17. Okay. Wanted to go up. And we had the opportunity to run, see someone whose office was in the capital. And just go ahead and say the president. Just say the president. Well, no, we're going to see the president. No, I was seeing the president later.

But that day, it was the capital itself. All right, fair enough. But I had some time. And so went up to see a lawmaker. And I hadn't realized, this is February 2021. the amount of fencing and the number of national guardsmen around the capital. And the reaction I had was a kind of embarrassment that my daughter, for whom this would be a formative political memory, saw this as we are having to erect barriers to keep Americans who are trying to seize power at any cost. and this is just this should not be who we are.

Not that it isn't, but it is who we should not be. So we don't need to keep doing my therapy. But I appreciate it. No, that's what we're here for today. I appreciate that. To heal John Meacham, who is at odds with his own career. Right. Okay, we've got to take just a quick break, and we shall be right back.

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We are back. You know, I wonder, though, John, isn't, Trump, in some respects, it's almost a throwback presidency to a time of kind of manifest destiny. Like there is, there are things about his presidency that are explicit, you know, explicitly 19th century values. There's a certain amount of Seward's Folly and there's a certain amount of. It's the Mexican war. It's Polk. Right. When it was, you know, and to be purposefully crass, it is a theory of power that he expressed in his interview with Billy Bush, which is we're going to grab them by the whatever.

And that is how America, in some respects, used to operate. And is Trump just explicitly expressing the implicit way that America has operated in the world? Are we overreacting based on his style rather than? what he is actually saying to do. Like when he says, hey, Greenland, underneath you are all these things that are very important to us. So I hate to tell you this, we're going to have to take you over,

as opposed to the modern presidency, which would be Greenland. We would love to elevate you democratically. We would couch it in higher value and higher morals, but ultimately the result being a slightly imperialist, realistic and colonial grab. Does that make sense? It does. Would we invite them to a yellow pad conference, give them a free fleece, and then take their country? Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the Brookings approach as opposed to the bully. Brookings versus bullying.

That's right. Is where we are. Yes is the answer. I'm all for vigorous and unconventional debate. The Greenland thing was one of those moments where you're sort of sitting there and you're thinking, this is crazy. But then you go, huh, I wonder, maybe we want Greenland. I mean, it's sort of that. We've certainly tried to buy it in the past. You know, so, and it's not top of mind, I think, for a lot of people. I don't think I live in Nashville.

I don't think down on Broadway. You know, they're singing friends in low places and thinking Greenland. Maybe not, but I'll tell you what, Chattanooga, they've been about this for years. Hey, don't mess with the home folks. All right, fair enough. Moon pies and Coca-Cola. Believe me, if the ingredients to make moon pies were underneath Greenland, they'd be all about it, brother. They'd be down there.

So if he wants to bring up crazy stuff, that's perfectly fine to me. I just don't want him to try to steal elections. I don't want him bullying judges. I don't want him appointing only the cast of Fox News to hold ultimate power. Right. And look, people like us, I mean, I think a lot of folks on the right might say that the people on this screen right now are one of the reasons Donald Trump is president. I think that exaggerates, to say the least. I lay it mostly at my feet.

I don't. Well, you should. I think you're out clean, but I think it's most. at my feet. Well, let me tell you. So one more story. Yeah. So this is where, and this is, this is we're doing full therapy. So I am famous, not famous. You are famous. No, no, on the right, there's a, there's a trope in that part of the world. On the night of the final presidential debate in 2020, this is another thing about my children. It was here in Nashville. It was that horrible one.

Remember where Trump wouldn't stop talking and all that. It was really embarrassing. And I took another child of mine down to the actual debate. I'd never been in a hall for one of those. Do you guys not have like a great adventure down there? Is it always every time you take, every story about your children is like, and I took them to a legislative session where they got to watch a certain amount of gerrymandering that was occurring. And then we went to the subcommittee.

Are they ever like, Dad, you know, they make roller coasters. You can get on them? No, no, no. We don't do that. We're very, very serious here. So, and I came back and I do my TV stuff from my basement. And so I was just doing, say, commenting at say 11 p.m. And it had really been a kind of, again, unsettling moment where you had an incumbent president

trying to bully a former vice president. It just wasn't where we wanted to be, in my view. And it was one of these things where President Trump had kept sort of talking about the mayor of Moscow. He was speaking in this kind of Fox News. That's right. Russia, Russia, Russia, and all that. And different illusions I didn't fully understand.

So I was sitting there talking probably to Brian Williams and, what do you think? And I said, you know, something to the following effect. You know, Donald Trump basically appeals to the white man's lizard brain. And it's sort of this elemental thing, which is what I meant. Now, that was a gift wrapped to right-wing ecosystem, because suddenly it became that I had called Trump supporters lizard brains. Right? And it was fairly, there were threats, you know, there was, you know, all that stuff.

Familiar with that? Yeah, absolutely you are. More so. And it was a lesson to me that you can't walk into it. The basic point I was trying to make was that there is an elemental feel here. Greenland is part of that. Right. It's like, all right, as you were just saying, we want to grab it.

One of the things that worries me most and tell me if you're seeing this in your world, I think this exhaustion, the resistance exhaustion, is a very real thing. Oh, no, I think there's no question about that. I think, you know, you spoke of, you know, January 6th and 2020 being a demarcation point for you. And I feel the same way. You know, we can talk about degrees of expansionist rhetoric or all kinds of other things or, you know, Trump certainly isn't the first president who has enemies lists or who is doing things explicitly through the influence of, you know, corporate power, any of these other things. They're all in there.

The line of demarcation for me always within, you know, a democracy that has a peaceful transfer of power is a democracy until there's no, until the person decides. like, hey, you know what? I think maybe I'm not leaving. Like, that to me is the moment. And rather than that moment being disqualifying, you know, that moment seemed to be, in some respects, a rallying point. We didn't get to do it this time. And then to see that, I guess what you would say, devaluing of the democratic process, be rewarded with a grander victory than what it was, I think is the most dispiriting part of it that I'm seeing. But the second part of it, John, is, and I'm curious what you think about this, you know, every new media is going to create some kind of a change in structure,

a kind of seismic shift, whether it was radio, whether it was TV. I think they are better at this new media. They are Kennedy and television when it comes to this new media. media as opposed to, and I think the Democrats are Nixon with the sweaty lip going, I don't need makeup. I look great. You know, I think that's part of it when you talk about, I said lizard brain by mistake and they took it. I think, A, let me in our therapy session, excuse you because you can't outsmart social media. You cannot be so careful. I would urge you not to be, because it doesn't matter your framing.

It doesn't matter a casual slip. They will find the root of attack and there will be a relentlessness to it that you just have to accept as part of it. It is the congestion pricing of having and operating an artisan talk shittery of being someone who expresses opinions. But it's not real. Those have been weaponized for that. but I don't think that the left has figured out in any manner how to make that work for them. I think that's right. And it's one of the great mysteries.

You know, Al Gore tried to fix this 20 years ago. In what way? Remember the current? Remember he started a network? Oh, yeah. Remember current? You know? You know, and it was, you know, and it's just an interesting thing.

And it's also, you know, we shouldn't whine about it. political power, as you say, often accrues to those who master the means of communication. Right. But also the message, I think what, and here's where I think it's a more difficult situation than I think people give it credit to. It's not just Trump as a bad actor or January 6th or any of those things. I think increasingly democracy is an analog system. in a digital world. And the chasm that that creates between the emotional catastrophizing of its people versus the kind of glacial pace of change,

I do think democracy itself has to find a way for government to be more agile and responsive. I have sympathy for those who believe that our government is not responsive. to the discomfort of its own people in large measure. Yes. And one of the first times that argument was made was by Anne Morrow Lindbergh. Charles Lindbergh. You're taking us back to America first. I thought you were going to say William Jennings, Brian.

I had no idea you were going Lindberg. Ann Morrow Lindberg. You are a man of surprises me. That's me, baby. It's called the wave. The book was called The Wave of the Future. And it was a big bestseller in the 40s, yep. And the argument was that what was happening in Rome, Berlin, and Moscow was more suitable to a globalized world that was shrinking because of air power and technology.

Wow. And that a totalitarian system might be more commensurate with the challenges of a world that required quicker national action. And I've heard American presidents talk about this in private, you know, not that they're for it, but that they understand the impulse. And to me, democracy is funding. fundamentally a moral question in the sense and not in a Sunday school way, but it's how we are with each other, right? And I'm on the right side of the economic equation, you know, and I would probably, I'm certain I would have a different view or different views if I were in a different place or if I were a different person. That goes without saying. But the moments in American history where we have done things that we tend to commemorate and see. say we want to emulate, have been moments where we have decided that giving was as important as taking. Right?

You're going better angels on us. I'm going better angels on us, but it's a 51-49 thing. And it's not, here you go, it's not better angels because it's just the right thing to do. So here's another story. Where did you take your kids this time? We went to an essay contest. This is going to be, actually, get ready. This is about Greenwich Country Day School in the 1930s.

So. You can't get more Episcopalian than that, sir. George Herbert Walker Bush was the most glamorous boy in the school. Yes, I'm sure. He was about to go off to Andover to boarding school. There was an obstacle course race at Greenwich Country Day School. He always won it. The faculty came to him in his last year and said,

would you let everybody else have a head start? He said, sure. Whatever that voice would be when you're 13. There was a boy in the school named Bennett McNichael. Come on. Get ready. Not true. Bennett McNichael was a fairly rotund lad.

He had not paid attention to Mrs. Obama's school lunch program. That's important to the story. Right. But he will pay attention to RFK Jr. School lunch program. Get ready. All right. Everybody goes off.

Then Bush goes. He's going through a series of barrels on the ground, narrow barrels and the obstacle course. And he pops out and he looks to his right and Bennett McNichael is stuck in the barrel. Can't get out. Bush reaches down, pulls Bennett out. He says, come on, Bennett. We'll finish this together.

All right. It's the kind of story, right, that a presidential family tells about their chieftain to say what a great person he was. But I didn't hear it from a Bush. I heard it from a McNichael. And so I took it to the old man. This was 10, 15 years ago. And I said, Mr. President, I just heard this story about Bennett McNichael. First thing he said was Bennett, he loved lunch. He said, no, no, that's really not the point, sir. He says, is he still big? I said, not the point. I said, why did you, why did you take him out of the barrel? and George Bush looked at me really as if I were crazy and he said, listen to what he said.

I'd never been stuck in a barrel, but if I had been, I'd want somebody to pull me out. All right? It wasn't, I did it because it was the right thing to do. I did it because my better angels told me what to do. I did it because my mother read me the Bible. It was a practical act of covenant. He might need help, so he gave help. And that was the first point of light.

Yep, there you go. The thousand points of light. There you go. Okay, we're going to take a quick break and be right back. We are back. So this is, in some respects, you're looking at this as the American public has in some ways voted for the more Hobbesian approach. Bingo.

That the idea is that's a lovely sentiment. But here's what you have to do in the real world. Leave heavier people in the barrels. Yep, because otherwise... You got to keep moving. You got to go beat China. Yeah, right, right. China's over here, leave Borb Bennett.

Yeah, that's exactly right. And this is... If the Hobbsian scholars write in, you respond. But again, it's Hobbs versus Locke, right? Locke was sort of, well, the state of nature is we're all believe in liberty and each other. Hobbs said, no, it's the war of all against all. That's the state of nature. And that the state of nature requires a strong man.

a monarch to run it. And that's absolutely where we are. So but but in that were we kidding ourselves about Locke. I mean, in some respects, isn't what then H.W would represent is a benevolent dictator as opposed to a more ruthless one because I guess that was my point originally. Are we kind of putting on blinders? And this brings us a around sort of more full circle to what we're talking about, which is, are we now seeing our system more clearly as it is? Like even let's talk about, you know, there's this sort of kind of idea of, you know, money controls our system. Well, now we're seeing it explicitly, you know, and it's always sort of hidden and, you know, lobbying groups and all that. Meanwhile, Elon Musk comes in and

says, I'll give you $270 million, and that investment will pay off in $200 billion. Are we just seeing the dynamics of the system? Is it like those watches? If you remember, you know, there was those old watches where you could turn them over and you could see how it worked. Yeah. And you could see the gears. Are we really just seeing the gears now in a way that's more explicit? And were we kidding ourselves that this country really was a country? of pulling people out of barrels? I think... Is that too cynical?

No, no, it's not. It's not. I'm sensing your disappointment. No, it's, it's, it's, I'm thinking because I want to, I think this is, this is why history has a, as a moral utility, right? I think that, I think that it's, and I'm, I'm to be serious for a second, it is absolutely rational to have a cynical. fatalistic reaction to the fact that 49.9% of the voters chose to do this again.

And all I would say is that I could make a pretty good case that our better moments have always been counterintuitive, countercultural. elaborate. It took, think, so Franklin Roosevelt, who redefines the relation of the state and the country, eliminates poverty among the elderly with Social Security, you know, took people, gave them some dignity, gave them some work, didn't really want to integrate war contracts and rounded up to Japanese Americans. So Hobbs and Locke working together. In one person. Right. And so we've been doing this since the third chapter of Genesis, right? And we're driven by

there was a piece of fruit. They said, don't take it. We said, no, no, I want that. The one thing, we had everything. And then fruit. One weekend, they're like, you know what I would like? Fruit. Some kind of a crumble. What do you think? Apple crumble? We did it for Harry and Davids. Oh, for God. We did it for a box of pairs. What is wrong with us? But therefore, the fact that Harry Truman and Lyndon Johnson and George H.W. Bush and Joe Biden, the fact that flawed, sinful, broken people were still able, in extremis, to do something that broadened the mainstream that put us a little more in compliance with the declaration

is not something you were, the way you articulated a second ago was a glass half empty. I think that it's, I don't want to say it's half full, but it's a quarterful. And I think that's what makes history, I think that's what is a source of hope, is that realizing that all these people in the past were just as miserable as we are.

Right? Yes. They had terrible days and they had good days. And so I remember running across this, if you go to the Lincoln Memorial, you know, the great temple, right? It's otherworldly. It's divine. but then you go in and it's the face of a human being right still a pretty large face very large that's the tension it's it's all inspiring even i find that that memorial is the one for me that i think

is most visceral in our pantheon you know when you go down there i've always found that uh you know i've never been much, you know, impressed by marble and limestone in the structures. And boy, when you walk into treasury, you really go, oh, you're expecting a revolution. Because like when you walk into treasury, you really go, so where's Marie Antoinette's office? Yeah, right. Because I'd like, I'd like to go see her. Like, it is gilded to the, to the nines. And, and you really do get a sense of if the people find out, you know, they're going to, they're going to have you melt down some of this gold leaf. Yeah, the tunnels.

That's exactly right. But there is something about the simplicity of the Lincoln Memorial, the scale of it, that I have always, and also because I view this Civil War always as our darkest moment and in some respects our most fortunate to have had the North, the, the, the, the, the non-slave-owning side triumph. Because without that, I just don't know, you know, what this all would have been for, if that makes sense. That's true. And it's another thing in, again, on our therapeutic, now for you. I am optimistic, John. I don't want to give you the wrong impression. I remain optimistic. Well, I'm Dork Klonopin here. And so I want to offer you something.

So to me the thing is that Americans never, as President Obama say, literally, we never just wake up and say, hey, let's do the right thing. We didn't wake up in 1861 and say, you know what, human enslavement, let's phase it out. Yeah, this is bad. No, we killed probably 750,000 people. and in a country of what, 20 million people, it was huge. You know, in the Gilded Age, the musks of the late 19th century didn't wake up and say, you know what? 40-hour work week. Right.

Unionize. You know what? We maybe we should. It was always born of violence to a large extent. Violence and the tension between conscience and conscience and conscience and conscience and conscience and conscience and appetite. And the central, to your, to your Hobbs point, the central thing as we head into this next week, power. Right. And everybody wants it. That's from the third chapter of Genesis forward. The remarkable thing about this particular national experiment is that we've kept it.

from being, we have managed to, let's throw Montesquieu in. How can you not? Exactly. How we've managed to divide power in a way that has, it has its frustrations, but it has kept this rickety ship afloat. And maybe, you know what, I think the founders would have been surprised that we lasted this long with this little renovation. I really do.

I mean, think about it. If you were like, you know, like, we're only going to amend the thing. They would not have viewed what they wrote as so sacrosanct as Genesis. Oh, my God. It's one of my things. That's a different conversation. But this idea, this idea that a bunch of newspaper call it, the federalist papers were like super tweets. I mean, they were like, they were newspaper pieces.

Right. And we're, that's. now St. Paul? I mean, my goodness. And isn't it interesting that even today we're kind of having the argument, you could almost make the point that the populist, right, are the anti-federalists. They're the anti-federalists. They're much more in line with a kind of unitary executive and a moving along those lines. But you brought up something interesting. And I know you're on a tight schedule and I want to honor your time. But I wanted to make sure before you left. You said something earlier that I thought was really interesting, which is

thank God, one thing. This idea, shut up, this idea of power. And I wonder, can you make the same critique? Because for President Biden, who is now leaving on, I think, a much more obviously melancholy

note than what you would have imagined. And is sitting in that office, power does not often seed itself. And I know that, you know, and you had written about the Cincinnati's moment and him stepping away, do you think that that that human flaw is, is in some ways what didn't allow the president to see maybe his own

limitations in that moment and those around him? And that same dynamic that pushes us towards these other changes and trying to get closer to, as you said, the pact that we made in the declaration. Do you think that was what was at play in that moment? Yes. I think that the forces, the characteristics that drove President Biden to the pinnacle of power at a very late season in his life, in a Greek way, were the characteristics and the habits of heart and mind and yes, appetite that propelled him into a campaign that self-evidently he shouldn't have done. He's my friend. I help him when I I can. I don't talk about our conversations. So I'm in a very weird position here, but I don't want,

I don't want to be dishonest either. Sure. I understand. And so I think that unquestionably, as history looks at President Biden, this remarkable 50-year public life, it is a period of tragic lows and unexpected highs. You know, he was left for dead politically in presidential terms again and again. And makes that last campaign in 2020 at what is hard to remember sometimes how dark that hour was. presidential legacies always depend on what comes next. And so I think we're going to be debating this forever. But we'll, let me put it this way.

If this is another kid's trip, I don't want to hear. No, no, no. So presidents can't have it both ways, right? You can't say in a country of 330 million people, I'm the one who should have the nuclear codes and then say, well, I didn't quite see that coming. Right. Right.

So too much is given, much as expected. And President Biden will the debate about his legacy. And arguably, every time he's discussed in historical terms, people will have to deal with the following question. Was the skill set that produced 48 months of results, was that worth the price of the political confusion that unfolded in 2024? That's the question. Right. Well, it's a question that I'm sure that John Meacham will be answering because John Meacham answers questions.

And I don't want to, listen, John, I don't want to give away too much of your hidden life. But when we first came on to the program and John was kind enough to join us on the podcast, he was reading just for pleasure. I want to make this very clear. This was not a sign. This is not part of a long-standing work. John, would you mind holding up? Do you want to see it? You want to, yeah. Mamey Eisenhower, ladies and gentlemen, this is a man at home in his study.

Give it, he could be doing anything. Candy Crush, it could be anything. It could be candy crush. And in that moment, it is a book on Mamie Eisenhower. Blurbed by Claire Booth Luce. What? I know. Notoriously, very flinty about putting the blurbs out. Very promiscuous in her blurbing. May I ask what Claire's opinion was of this Mamie Eisenhower, just to end this to put a button on the entire conversation. All right. This book is written by Alden Hatch.

It was published in, let's see, it was published in 1954. It was big in 54. Had to be. Had to be. Alden Hatch is a personal friend of Mamies, so it's got hard-hitting things. He had access. He had access. This, by the way, is also, this is the complete and unabridged.

So there may have been an abridged version of red carpet for Mamie. And the blurb from Congresswoman Luce is Mamie Eisenhower is beloved and admired by millions of American women. Apparently, the men didn't think about it. The men didn't care for him. Oh, and Hatchez's book makes you understand why. That's good. That is good. You know what?

A good loose quote. And that probably is what shot that to the top. And for those of you who haven't seen the movie, Ava Gardner was triumphant. Well, I'm writing, I'm doing a biography of Eisenhower. Oh, fantastic. I'm going to spend the rest of the day worried about the battle for Tunisia. Can I tell you something, though? It is, I so love the idea because Eisenhower today would be considered a communist.

So I love the idea that it's coming out there that a man who warned against the military industrial complex and understood and just wanted to build roads. Like the idea that you're putting that out there. Delightful. John Meacham, I can't thank you enough for this therapy session for everything that you brought in there. John Meacham. And there was light.

You've got to read a wonderful biography of Lincoln. Thanks for joining us. Thank you, John. Man, first of all, welcome back, guys. Gillian, Lauren, Brittany. I hope you guys all had a well-deserved break and you enjoyed yourselves. But, you know, Meacham comforts me.

He's like, he's my Campbell soup. Like there's something about the breadth of knowledge, the made-up names. Bennett McNickle, Claire Boothloose. Come on, man. None of that shit is real. To begin a story with George Herbert Walker Bush was the most glamorous boy in the school. It's just, it's so genteel.

He talks like people write. He just talks that way. Yeah, he's like an Edith Wharton novel. Yes. I really thought that barrel story was going to end in that. And that was the inspiration for no child left behind or something like that. Right. He was going to tie it around.

Although, if I'm the Mick, Nicol family. Oh, yes. And you do wonder, like, as president, if Bennett McNichael, he just would sit there, just stewing in his, you'd never, you know, I wonder if Bennett McNichael was just like, you didn't pull me out of that barrel. I got myself out of that barrel. You bastard.

Next week on the weekly show, we have Bennett. But everything, it's so funny when you realize this country was so steeped in all the iconogical of its ruling class of Protestants and a is a Piscopal. And like, as Carlin would say, it's a big club and you ate in it. Like, it was a country club. And that's the default setting that we all sort of work off of and deviating from that. There is like a strange discomfort in that. And it's funny when he talks about it.

We're 60 years old. And I'm like, wait, I'm 62. I'm older than I'm older than America. That doesn't seem right. But I mean, it is like when you talked about that, you know, it was reminded. after the election with just the fact that the Democrats haven't won the white vote since 1964. And what happened after 1964, the Civil Rights Act? So, wow, that really underscores it.

Yeah, it really does. Boy, that's slightly. Sobering thought. I know. Slightly sobering, slightly damning? You're just like, oh, yeah, all right. Well, now they got a correlation and causation might check out. I do think in the next election, I would not be surprised if the Democrats ran Bennett McNichael.

I do believe they're going to pull him out of that barrel and put him on the ticket. Someone from the Greenwich Country Day School, most likely. Right. What I love about that story, too, is like where they were going. It was before he went to Andover. He was at the Greenwich Country Day School. And then he went to Andover where he was the most glamorous boy at Andover. And you're like, I think I remember this as a Studs Terkel novel.

Phenomenal. But happy to be back. It is going to be an interesting ride. I am glad that he in some ways tempered my melancholy and pessimism and reminded me like, all right, all right, all right. We don't know what's going to happen. We've been here before. Now it's time to move forward.

How are our viewers? Are they listeners? Are they listeners? viewers and podcasts, I don't even know. We have both. What do they got for us? So are they, hopefully they've had a nice break as well. Yeah, they gave us some really thoughtful feedback over the break.

Yep, let me hear. John, I grew up watching you and enjoy your program all the time. Uh-oh. I wish you knew how crazy you have become. Not as bad as Colbert. But nonetheless, very bad. Very bad. You know what I love about all those?

It's always like, I've been a fan of yours my whole life. I love everything you do, but you've really made a turn. And I'm like, you haven't watched a minute of me. Oh, I've got more. Because I'm the same dumb asshole I have been since the start, unfortunately. Yeah, what's the other? Is it all along that sort of? There's a theme.

Yeah, the theme is always like, you were great until now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, okay. You're smiling. You love this. I mean, I'm used to it. So it tickles me. John Stewart is an arrogant, self-righteous asshole.

But always, by the way, again, there's been no growth. It's not new. All right, go ahead. Fuck you for helping push Biden out. Oh, wow. Okay. You know, I'm still somewhat baffled by that idea that actually Biden, like, even those closest to him now sheepishly acknowledge

what they should have acknowledged a year and a half ago. And God bless them if they think, oh, in this kind of revisionist mindset that actually, you know, oh, actually his vigor and acuity are as good as they've always been. And he would have translated, I just think that's, sadly divorced from the reality. And I take no pleasure in that. I take no pleasure in saying it.

He felt to me, I'll put this in comedic terms. When a comedian comes on and the audience is worried about that comedian as they perform, that's the death of their performance. That's how I felt about, unfortunately, the president. And I don't know how you guys felt. Oh, yeah. It felt like a high wire act that you were just waiting to see if he fell. Literally, by the way, Yeah, watching that debate. Yeah, right. I mean, in terms of it, it's tough. I mean, the debate was the kind of the apex of it.

But I think prior to that, I mean, there was, and I think also you have to remember, the bully pulpit requires vigorous pushback, especially in this modern media environment. And if you have to be, if your emotional and intellectual reserves have to, have to, to be managed and, you know, in some ways, meet it out, you know, in just a certain amount of, you know, rationing. I'm sorry. That's, you won't be able to do it. And Trump's, unfortunately, his resources for that were endless.

But I completely, the arrogant asshole part, yeah. All of that feedback was from Jason Furman, just so you know. Damn, economists. Why? Why? That's it. Everybody else loves you. Yeah. Come on. Terrible, terrible, terrible. Well, that's great. That's the kind of shit.

You know, look, it's important for us to hear it all out and kind of think about, because there is, you know, it's funny in all the kind of waterfall of criticism and attacks that come. Generally, there will be something somewhat constructive in some of it. And even though it's kind of a drag to sift through all of it, you know, it is in some ways you are panning for gold in a, you know, river, a torrent of, you know, kind of shitty criticism. But, but, but sadly, you'll probably find a nugget or two where you're like, yeah, I should do, I should get better at that. Yeah, I mean, it's been helpful to read the comments. Honestly, because we've gotten some great feedback or suggestions on like topics or people we should talk to you.

Yeah. And Brittany, we should have, let's think about some of those suggestions for topics and people because look, it's going to be hard to turn our attention off the fire hose for these first, you know. But there is a whole world out there. And speaking of it, by the way, you know, we talked about California earlier. I just want to quickly again, for anybody out there who is considering, the California Fire Foundation is phenomenal. So it's cafirefoundation.org, if anybody is interested. And I'm certainly, it's not a secret of all those organizations. So that's just, that happens to be one. But we all, obviously, not to get colloquial, but we all have very good friends and family out there that are really going through it.

So people want to get in touch with us. What is it, Brittany? Twitter, we weekly show pod, Instagram, threads, TikTok, Blue Sky, we are weekly show podcast. Taking off on Blue Sky, man. Yeah, I actually really are. And you can like and subscribe our YouTube channel, the weekly show with John Stewart.

Wonderful. And as always, thank you again, lead producer Lauren Walker, producer Brittany Mamedevick, video editor and engineer Rob Vatolo with his baby who is now, how old is the baby now, Rob 11? Audio and engineer Nicole Boyce, researcher and associate producer Jillian Spear,

executive producer, Christmas Shannon, executive producer Katie Gray, who I must say also just had a beautiful baby. Yay! Little Dora. Little Dora so sweet. And we wish Katie and her husband, Chris, just the absolute best.

They're just the Swedish, most wonderful people. So so excited for them as they go along on this journey. And that's that, man. We will see you guys next week. Thanks again. Boy. The weekly show with John Stewart is a Comedy Central podcast. It's produced by Paramount Audio and Bus Boy Productions.

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