The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway - Can Democrats Win Back America? — with Gov. Gretchen Whitmer

Episode Date: July 24, 2025

Governor Gretchen Whitmer joins Scott to discuss the future of the Democratic Party, how to reconnect with disillusioned voters, and why she believes “action absorbs anxiety.” The two cover a wide range of topics – from medical debt relief and bipartisan leadership to the economic challenges facing young men. Governor Whitmer also shares her candid views on tariffs, climate migration, and why Michigan might be the best-kept secret in America. Follow Governor Whitmer, @GovWhitmer. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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O'Henry, O'Henry. I'm Chris Hadfield, astronaut and citizen of planet Earth. Join me on a journey into the systems that power the world. No politics, just real conversations with real people shaping the future of energy. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. What makes for the perfect summer read? Maybe it's a romance or that non-fiction book you've been meaning to get around to or maybe it's something else. The summer vibe is like easy breezy lesbian vampires. That's the vibe.

No, no like summer. vampires. That's the vibe. No, no, like summer. What we read and why we read during the summer. That's this week on Explain It to Me. New episodes every Sunday, wherever you get your podcasts. Episode 358. 358 is the country code for Finland. In 1958, NASA was founded. Leaked NASA documents show, and this is a true story, that the moon landing was actually done in a studio. On the moon. Jesus, what is with these conspiracy weirdos? They seem like they're more worried about their conspiracy being

true or not true than actual pedophilia. These people are just people are just fucking strange. Go, go, go! Welcome to the 358th episode of the Prop Gpod. What's happening? I'm still in Aspen, but headed to Chicago this week. I tried to spend, so just a quick pro tip as a parent. My sons, when they're together, it's a different dynamic. What's the term there? Awful. They resent each other, jealous of each other,

love each other. I don't know what is going on there, but when they are together, the whole household is chaos and angry and shit getting thrown at each other. We were in Spain and they got into with another family and we were having dinner and they were, as parents do, to try and be nice to the other parents, complimenting our kids. And we heard something go flying and it was remote. And it was my youngest throwing the remote at the other, which devolved into a fist fight.

Uh, so that was good. That was fun. I'm the only thing I regret about it is breaking it up. I think one needs to establish dominance over the other and traumatize him and just have fewer fights. I'm just ready for them to go at it. Maybe some rules, maybe I put on some gloves, no like biting or something like that, but I think at some point they should just,

they should just have at it. Anyways, but one of the things I have decided as a good parenting that I really enjoy is that individually they're like less awful. I wouldn't say they're great, but they're less awful. And so I try to put on the calendar every year, because the years go fast, my friend, I try to put on the calendar every year, because the years go fast, my friend, I try to put on something to do with them individually and get them out of town and

take a trip with them. And on Thursday, I have a speaking gig. So my son is coming with me to Chicago. And what do you do? One of the things when you're in Chicago, I like to tell my son, all right, use AI, do whatever you want, but you're in charge of planning. You're in charge of planning the trip. I get to pick the hotel because I'm very fussy when it comes to hotels, but you pick everything else. So what are we doing? Well, of course, we're going to go see the McDonald's museum. I mean, who wouldn't want to see the museum where it all started? Anyways, by the way, I love McDonald's, but I only eat McDonald's in airports or in other cities. As a general rule, I do not eat fast food or go to a

strip club in the city I live in. I just think, uh, neither of those things can go really well. Anyways, in Chicago, uh, where we will not be going to a strip club, uh, we are going to go see the McDonald's headquarters. As I mentioned, we're going to see 360 Chicago observation deck. I guess that's a building with the two things on it. Cause you know, when you're a 14 year old, you, the moment you get to a new city, you got to go to the, you know, the tallest building and look out on the city.

That's just a must. And then we're going to a place called, we're going to a restaurant called Gibson's, which my son says is a must do. And then I'm going to take them on that boat tour. But anyways, I'm super excited about going to Chicago with him. Then I go to New York for a week. And anyways, it's been absolutely wonderful here. And just a quick, quick thank you.

As anyone who listens to the pod knows, I lost my dad a couple of weeks ago or nine days ago, and a lot of people reached out with really nice notes. Thanks very much. Do very much appreciate it. One of the wonderful things about the podcast is that, you know, the mediums are funny. The medium really is the message.

I know how somebody knows me or has heard of me, and that is if they come up and they high-five me, I know they've seen a video. If they want to come up and have a really long conversation or they write a really long, thoughtful email, I know it's because I've read something I've written. If they come up and start speaking to me as if they're my friend, I know it's the podcast. And that's one of the unique things about this medium.

Because you, the voice, because you're not distracted with visuals or not as much, although, supposedly 25% of our listeners are on the TV, people streaming on YouTube. Who would have thought that? Who would have thought that anyways? But the majority of people are focused on the voice. And the voice is more intimate.

And also because you are with people when they're doing something personal, washing the dishes or taking their dogs for a walk, they feel close to you. And also you're physically in their ears. It's not ambient noise. You're actually in their ears. So they not ambient noise. You're actually in their ears. So they're very focused on you and your voice. By the way, I have a very handsome voice.

Like imagine what I look like right now. It's better looking than what I am. And that is I have had no joke, people come up to me and cock their head and go, you're Scott Galley, recognize my voice. And I say, yes. And they go, huh, like, oh, I thought you'd be better looking.

Anyways, face for podcasting. But one of the really nice things about it is you do feel as if you inherit go, huh, like, oh, I thought you'd be better looking. Anyways, face for podcasting. But one of the really nice things about it is you do feel as if you inherit. A ton of friends and that is, or at least acquaintances or people who come up to you and are really nice to you and seem to be concerned about you and know a lot about you and it's really, you know, it's actually very nice. People often say, what's it like having a certain level of awareness or quote unquote fame?

And I think I have just the right amount of fame in that as people are nice to me, they give me affirmation, they come up to talk to me. I enjoy it. But at the same time, I still feel as if I can be pretty anonymous. Anyway, with that, in today's episode, we speak with Governor Gretchen Whitmer, the 49th governor of Michigan. We discussed with Governor Whit with Governor Gretchen Whitmer, the 49th governor of Michigan. We discussed with Governor Whitmer

the future of the Democratic Party, the importance of bipartisan leadership, and the crisis facing young men. And after the interview, for the first time, we've been getting a lot of people have reached out who are potentially candidates for president trying to gain awareness for either their programs or a run.

We're going to do just a quick two or three minute no mercy, no mouse review of our conversation and the candidate. So stick around for that. What a thrill. Oh my God. What is he thinking? What does he think?

So with that, here's our conversation with Governor Whitmer. Governor, where does this podcast find you? I'm in Mackinac Island. You got to do better than that. What is that? Mackinac Island, Michigan. For those tuning in, I want to pull out my Michigan map. We get two peninsulas.

They look like hands. It's right here in Lake Huron between the two peninsulas. It's a spectacular place. So we very much appreciate you coming on and we were trying to think about where to kick it off. So I think a lot of our listeners probably know of you but don't know you. Can you spend a couple minutes just on your origin story? Sure. You know, I am a lifetime Michigander. I grew up in the state. You know, I am a lifetime Michiganer. I grew up in the state. I grew up in East Lansing, the home of Michigan State University. Parents divorced when I was young. My mom moved to Grand Rapids, so my dad followed us, even though he worked in

Detroit, which was three hours away. He did that drive for many years, but I'm very close to both my folks. I lost my mom about 20 years ago to brain cancer. But I went to Michigan State, thought I was going to be a sports broadcaster. And when I was there, my dad encouraged me to do an internship down at the state Capitol, which was like eight miles from MSU's campus. And it kind of changed everything for me. I fell in love with public policy.

I learned about state government and took a job with the House Democrats when I was graduated from MSU. We were, it was a weird time where you have 55, 55 Democrats, Republicans. It was tied maybe the most productive time in legislative history in Michigan, where I got to learn and see it firsthand. And then we lost the election.

And so I went to law school. I'd been putting it off for a little while, practiced law for a little bit, but kind of surveyed the field and like a lot of women in this business. It was a man who suggested I consider running for office. I'd never considered myself an office holder. So I ran for the House, served in the House for six years, the Senate for eight years. I was a prosecutor and the Flint water crisis really kind of inspired me to run for governor. You know, I saw a community that was hurt so badly by decisions that were made in Lansing, our state capital, and I thought, you know, I'm going to run and I'm going to try to fix

that and fix a lot of other problems that I see in Michigan. But I think the time that formed who I am, you know, is when I was 29 years old. They say the five most stressful things that happen in your life are getting married, moving your home, starting a new job, the birth of a child and the death of a loved one. And all five of those things happened to me my first year as a state representative. I cared for my mom who died of glioblastoma multiform, the worst kind of brain cancer you can get. She died two months after I had my first child, my daughter Sherry, who I named after my mom. And all of that was my first year in the legislature. I'd gotten married the

year prior. And for some odd reason, I decided to move my home at the same time. So I did all five of those things in that one year. And I often tell tell people I think that's what shaped who I am, why I don't suffer fools very well, why I'm impatient for solutions and I don't have a lot of patience for BS. And so, I don't know, I think those are the most salient aspects of my life. So were you raised in a single parent household? I wasn't, you know, my folks divorced, but my mom always said my dad was a better ex-husband than he was husband, because he was a very active parent. And to this day, my dad, you know, and I are very close, I was really lucky. He worked in Detroit, but we lived in Grand Rapids because my mom got remarried.

And so he drove at three hours, twice a week. We saw him every weekend and once during the week as well. And so they were both single at different points in time, but I had the benefit of both parents being very active in our lives. And how did your mom's sickness and sort of going through that, you know, pretty up and close,

how did that change your views on healthcare policy and the way you approach healthcare for the residents of Michigan? Well, you know, my mom had three things going for her. When she was diagnosed, you know, like every family with a terrible diagnosis like that, you start looking for information, right? And they projected four to six month timeframe

before she would die of glioblastoma. And she lived for 19 months and it was because she had a really good attitude, she had a good support system and she had good healthcare. Most people do not have all three of those things. Some people don't have any of those three things. And that's why the statistics are as bad as they are. I vividly recall, I had given birth to my daughter. I was exhausted, new parent, but also taking care of my mom and fighting her insurance company, who wrongfully

wouldn't cover some of her chemotherapy treatments. And trying to arrange child care for my daughter and get to work on for my daughter and get to work on time. You know, all those things were on my shoulders. It was a sandwich generation experience very early in life. But I think it really, you know, is what's driven me to try to expand access to healthcare for people. It's driven me to try to help people get affordable, accessible childcare. You know, all these things, I think, kind of center the work that I do even now as governor, and make me not patient for posturing.

I want to solve problems. That's why I do this work. I care about people and I want to solve problems. It was specifically thinking about, so in the United States, we spend, I think, 12,000 or 13,000 per capita on healthcare for worse outcomes, right? We're more obese, die sooner, infant mortality is just kind of just okay. Best healthcare in the world, I think, if you're in the top 10%,

but definitely not in the bottom 90. In the most of the G7, it's at $6,500 per capita. So a decent way to describe healthcare in America for the lower 90, if you will, is expensive but bad. What ideas might you have if you were given a magical honor, say you were to run for president and win, what would be some of your priorities or ideas? Would it be socializing medicine?

Would it be single payer, expanding Medicare? What big ideas would you have to solve what is an increasingly taxing problem for Americans? 40% of Americans medical and dental debt, right? And I know you've been working on that. Anyways, I'll stop there. What big ideas around attacking healthcare in the United States would you put forward?

Well, that's a massive question. We're gonna need a bigger boat? We're gonna need, yeah. Nice Jaws reference. Now, you know, I think that we provide healthcare in the, in the worst way possible. And that means a lot of people can't afford it. So they go to the emergency room when it is at catastrophic moments in their lives.

It's the most expensive way to get coverage, to get healthcare. It's also the least effective way to get healthcare because you're so damn sick by the time you finally access it. You know, the Medicaid expansion was a good thing. It helped us get more people that basic level of care. And I gotta tell you, you know, when I was in the Senate,

I was a Senate Democratic leader. I was the leader of 12 people in a body of 38. I served with all Republicans at the time in the majority, and the governor, to his credit, saw Obamacare as a good thing for Michigan and decided to try to adopt that in Michigan, but he couldn't get his own party who was in the majority to do it, and he couldn't do it without us. So, of course, we wanted to expand healthcare. I'm glad we did it. I've talked to so many people who saw a doctor for the first time in their lives. First time in their lives because of Medicaid expansion. So think about how most people access healthcare at the most dire time in the most expensive way.

It tells you everything you need to know about we're doing it backwards in this country. Every person should have a basic level of health care and access. How do we do it is the impossible question that everyone's been asking and hasn't been able to to rectify. But I think that's the goal. That's the gold standard. It's maybe not the gold standard, but that's the goal. And until we have real change at the federal level, we're going to continue to try to piece it together, but we're not going to be successful. And I think that's a fundamental problem that we're seeing across this country. We've got patchwork of healthcare systems that only the very few

really benefit from. But just last week, you announced a 144 million medical debt relief for nearly a quarter of a million Michigan nurse. As am I saying that correctly? I'm Michigan nurse. Michigan, Michigan nurse. There you go. Michigan nurse.

Thank you for that. Easily. There you go. And you kind of hear that. It sounds wonderful. One, curious to get your thoughts on that. And two, if you think that could work nationally. And three, do you worry that you're creating moral hazard,

that people aren't consumers around healthcare and keeping costs down if they worry or if they believe in the back of their head that at some point that debt might be relieved? What's your strategy there around the medical debt relief? I worry about all the above, Scott. I think that when government is supplanted by nonprofits to do the fundamentals, we're all in danger.

And that's what, we're taking advantage of an opportunity. Undo Medical Debt is a nonprofit that is matching dollars, that is buying debt, pennies on the dollar to retire it for individuals. We've partnered with them. It's a good thing for a lot of people that are, you know, swamped by medical debt, that it's keeping them back from all the things that every person should be able to achieve and want to achieve a basic good quality of life. It's a good, but it's a band-aid. It's a band-aid on

a wound and it doesn't actually fix the underlying problem. So I do worry about that. We saw during the Flint water crisis, philanthropy coming in to help people. I'm so grateful for philanthropy, but if government was doing what needed to be done, those Flint throppid dollars could do a whole lot more for a lot more people instead of triaging a failure of a system that that wasn't working. So I do worry about what what is the long-term goal here. We're giving short-term relief and that's not a bad thing, but in the long term, we haven't solved the problem. So I understand. So while you announced 145 million in medical

debt relief, it didn't cost you $145 million. You partnered with a company that went out and bought, so it might have cost you $10 or $20 million to relieve $145 million. Do I have that right? Yeah. Okay. So you've long, for a long time, emphasized bipartisan leadership, and you've been credited

with overseeing a state where there is probably more bipartisan cooperation. How do you think you infect the rest of America with more of a sense of bipartisanship? I don't know. I was raised in a bipartisan household. My dad was a Republican back when Republicans don't look anything like they do now. He's a Democrat and has been for years now. My mother was a Republican back when Republicans don't look anything like they do now. He's a Democrat and has been for years now.

My mother was a Democrat, but she was more conservative than my dad in some ways. And I govern a state that is very purple. We go back and forth. And we often decide, you know, us and a handful of other states decide outcomes of national elections. So I'm always cognizant of the fact that for us to have durable impact, it's got to be bipartisan. It's got to be coalition supported.

And I think that's something that's really challenging in this environment where the hyper, we're hyper polarized and the rhetoric's so hot and, and personal and dangerous, frankly, it's even tougher. But I'll say this, you know, after the last election, I really went to a dark place after the election and worked really hard to try to help Kamala Harris. And we came up short. We came up short not just in Michigan, but in every single swing state. There were a lot of things that went into it. But it was really hard to take, to imagine that our, my state and our country willingly

chose this path. Again, we've been here, only now it's, now it's arguably more challenging, right? And I tuned out for a while. I had to turn off the TV. I think I watched, you know, eight seasons of Dexter. My kids came in there like, are know, eight seasons of Dexter. Uh, my, my kids came in there like, are you okay?

Yeah. To distract me, you know? Uh, yeah. And my kids were like, are you okay, mom? And, but I needed to check out for a minute. But you know, one of the things you talk about that I really resonates with me and I kind of, um, uh of have trying to share the similar philosophy is, you know,

checking out only makes my anxiety grow. You know, I think you say something like action absorbs anxiety, something like that. Yeah, by the way, that's Dan Harris. I just stole it from him, but thank you. Okay, well, I've said something similar too. You know, I don't take credit for it either, but I found it to be very true in my life.

If I'm checked out, I'm worrying more. If I go to bed exhausted, I can get up the next day and get right back to work. I've got to wear myself out doing good because that's the only way that I can navigate the moment that we're in. And so after I came out of my Dexter hibernation, about a month, I decided, you know, I got two years left as governor.

I've got to work with this new administration. I'm going to fight them. I'm suing them. We've got all our differences, but if there's opportunities to do some, some good for my state, I got to take them. That's, that's my duty as governor. And, you know, I'm trying, I'm doing everything I can to, to find those opportunities, but I'm, I'm still not going to shirk away from, from fighting where I know I need to.

So let's talk a little bit about the election. You were on the shortest of short lists for a VP. If you had, and I'm sure they asked for your input and you know, you referenced this, one of the weird things about our electoral system is that it's a small number of counties and a small number of states, including yours. And somewhere in Lansing is the man or woman who decided the election or can decide the election, right? I was shocked how badly we lost.

I got this wrong. And you know, it wasn't a lot of votes, but lost most or all the swing states. As you try to diagnose what went wrong for Democrats, what two or three things or mistakes or missed opportunities would you lay at the feet of the campaign? I think we've gotten too far away from the people that we serve. And I don't mean, I say we as a party. One of the things I love about state government is I am with the people I serve all the time. I get to see the outcomes of the work that I do.

And that's what I love about state government. And that's a challenge when you're talking about Washington, D.C. I'm not a pundit, but I've thought a lot about the substance of your question. I think I don't know that anyone could have tagged in when President Biden tagged out and it come up with a different result. I really think it was too late. And so I do think that it was, you know, the president stayed in way too long. I don't think he should have run again. And I think president stayed in way too long. I don't think he should have run again.

And I think he stayed in way too long. And we may have had a different result. We may not have. But there should have been a robust primary where new energy, new vision, and new talent was tested and ready for a tough general election. And you know what? If that had happened, maybe the Republicans would have had a different standard bearer too,

in their primary. That's the big thing I think about. But I also think that disconnection with people. You know, the campaign continued to say, the economy's doing great. And you know what? The average person was not feeling that very clearly. Men weren't feeling that, women weren't feeling that.

It was across the board, tone deaf. And what do you think, I think most people would agree that the Democrats need to get kind of more in touch with the people that they represent. A lot of people aren't happy with the president's policies and yet the Democratic Party is even less popular. Can you be a little bit more prescriptive in terms of policies or messaging around how people start to believe again that the Democratic Party does in fact represent them? When I jumped in the race in 2018, I got all across the state of Michigan.

I wanted to ask people, what's going on in your life? What can I do that'll make it better? And a lot of politicians just hit the campaign trail and talk, but I like to listen. And I think it's important that politicians shut up and listen to the people they want to serve. And when you ask them, they'll tell you. So I heard over and over again, to my surprise, frankly, fix the damn roads. That's what I heard. That's what people said. Whether I was in the upper peninsula and the most rural parts of the state, or I was in downtown Detroit, or on the west side of the state in Grand Rapids,

that was a common refrain. It was the only thing people talked about. They talked about housing costs. They talked about job opportunities. They talked about school outcomes for our kids. But roads kept coming up over and over again. And I think, you know, I assumed it was because it's a daily reminder

on your commute, you hit a pothole, it's a pretty clear piece of evidence that government's not getting the job done. And it can really cost you a lot of time and money on your commute or fixing your car, et cetera. But it was actually when I was in a children's hospital in Detroit. I was touring and I came across a woman who looked kind of friendly and I thought she wouldn't mind talking to me. But you know, it's a children's hospital. So I figured this is high stress place,

parents with kids in the hospital. And I chatted with her and I said, you know, if I'm fortunate enough to get elected, what could I do that'll make your life better or make your life a little easier? And she said, fix the damn roads. I was shocked. I thought she'd talk about healthcare. I thought she'd talk about childcare or education. I said, all right, tell me more. Why is this the first thing out of your mouth? She said, well, I got, she's a mom of four kids, one daughter, three boys.

One of her boys was in the hospital. She lives in Flint. She was driving back and forth from Flint to Detroit, not a short commute. And she hit a pothole and it sidelined her for a whole day. It busted the rim on her car. It cost her a ton of money that she hadn't budgeted for. It was money out of childcare for rent.

And it took her away from her child in the hospital and she was paying for childcare for the other kids at home. And it was like that moment, it just crystallized for me. That when you talk about the roads, it's not just about an easier commute or safer commute. It's about time with your kids. It's about money for your rent or your childcare. It's about people on the margins who one little pothole can totally screw up their whole month or months of spending. And I think that's the kind of stuff that I learn the most from when we're asking people. And I think a lot of Democrats in D.C. talk to each other and don't actually talk to their constituents enough.

What do you think going into the midterms is on voters' minds and has a change at all since the last election? What do you think are going gonna be the kind of the, it feels like both the presidential election and even city elections right now, looking at the mayoral race in New York, it's been about affordability. Do you think that's gonna be the key issue again at the midterms?

I think a lot of people feel hopeless that they can't get ahead because they can't buy a house or they can't find an apartment that they can afford. They're looking for a good-paying job. You know, I think that those fundamentals are missing for a lot of people in this country right now and they're only getting harder to reach with tariffs, with all the additional costs that are going to be piled on people from the bill that just passed through Congress, I think it's only going to get harder.

So yeah, I do think that that is going to be front and center. And my hope is that my colleagues across the country and people who run as Democrats are not just speaking to that, but have a vision about how to address it and are talking to people about that, understanding what's really holding Americans back right now. And it's not just, you know, it's not just Democrats. I think everyone in DC sometimes gets caught in that bubble. And that's why when people ask governors, how should we message to people? I think governors are the best messengers because we're the ones on the ground with people every single day. And I would say that's true of Republican and

Democratic governors, because we know what's going on more. Now I'm obviously a Democrat, and I think our platform's a lot more representative of what people want and need. But you know, this is still going gonna be very important to voters going into the next election. We'll be right back after a quick break. Support for the show comes from Vanta. As a founder, you're moving fast,

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G. Terms and conditions apply, hiring, indeed is all you need. Get to Toronto's main venues like Budweiser Stage and the new Roger Stadium with Go Transit. Thanks to Go Transit's special online e-ticket fares, a $10 one-day weekend pass offers unlimited travel on any weekend day or holiday, anywhere along the GO! network. And the weekday group passes offer the same weekday travel flexibility across the network, starting at $30 for two people and up to $60 for a group of five. Buy your online GO! pass ahead of the show at gotransit.com slash tickets. A big kind of call sign for Republicans and Democrats, it seems as if we have a bit of

a fetish or a lot of goodwill for quote unquote manufacturing. You consistently hear candidates talk about the importance of manufacturing plays. And if you thought of a state that sort of embodied manufacturing, I think it would be Michigan. I think people said, okay, what state is ground zero for how well or not well we're doing in terms of manufacturing, it would be Michigan. Curious what you think about our quote unquote

national policy as it relates to manufacturing. We can use that as a bridge to talk about tariffs. But what do you think America gets right or wrong about manufacturing and what have you done at a state level to ensure that, I think it's your number one sector, is manufacturing remains robust? You know, when we think about a pandemic, right, we've all lived through a very recent, very clear example of what happens when we're not manufacturing in this country. Just trying to get swabs or masks was

impossible and lives were lost because we weren't able to do that. I'm grateful that we had, you know, a kind of a resurgence and re-interest around supporting manufacturing and unshoring supply chains. It's critical for our homeland security. It's critical for jobs. It's critical for our health. And, you know, the Biden administration did a lot of good work to spur this. And I'm worried. I'm worried right now because in Michigan, we've seen a lot of investment around growing our manufacturing. It is our big industry and autos to boot, which makes up a bulk of our advanced manufacturing, but we do a lot of different types of manufacturing. And agriculture, and all of these things make us uniquely susceptible to the pain of tariff

policy that is just complete chaos right now. We lack a strategic goal. 90 deals in 90 days, we've had two and not with the most with the biggest trade partners that we have. And so right now, I think it's really precarious in Michigan, despite all the work that we've done to make sure that our workforce is ready to level the barriers between people and skills that get them into good paying jobs, including manufacturing jobs. And I'm very worried about what this moment

is going to reap for Michigan long-term. There's a saying that when the country gets a cold, Michigan gets the flu. We feel it harder and faster than other states do. And we're seeing that right now with this tariff policy. And later today, I'm going to be talking with the secretary of commerce to talk a little bit about the Canadian tariffs in particular and what it's meaning to the Michigan economy, because I don't know that they are seeing it. And I want to make sure that it's very clear. And I'm going to do my best to continue to prevail on them to come up with some sort of an agreement with Mark Carney and the Canadians,

but also the Mexican government because North American trade is, you know, it ain't perfect, but it's been working and we rely on it. And it's really important to so many jobs and so much of American manufacturing. Where are you with respect to the president's basic notion that America, we have all of these asymmetric trade relationships and that many nations have taken advantage of us in terms of trade and this sort of full embrace of a tariff policy. What do you think about tariffs as they relate

to protecting some industries, including manufacturing, and how the administration is going about it? I think the way they're going about it is dangerous. And we're feeling it in Michigan already, I can tell you that. They've never articulated a long-term strategic goal. And once we get there, that corporations can evolve and then plan on it. It's this on, off, hot, cold. What is it today?

Who's our enemy tomorrow? And I'm really concerned. Michigan is, we like to say, we're basically second cousins with our Canadian neighbors. In Michigan, if you've ever been to a hospital in Detroit, odds are you've been taken care of by Canadian neighbors. In Michigan, if you've ever been to a hospital in Detroit, odds are you've been taken care of by Canadian nurse. They come across the border in hundreds every single day to take care of Americans, Michiganders mostly, right? And so this is a relationship that was built over generations that has been mutually beneficial when LA's on fire, Canadian firefighters come to help.

This is something that has been just true allies in every sense of the word. And now I can tell you, Canadians aren't coming to the States. They're not coming for tourism. They're not investing in America. They're not buying American goods. The Canadian ambassador to the United States, I was recently in an event with her and she was talking about how Canada's consumption of American goods dwarfs China's, I think France, Germany, like she was listing five countries together were dwarfed by Canadian

consumption. That's why this relationship has got to be resolved and protected. And it's going to take us generations to earn back the kind of trust that we built over the last number of years. In five months, so much damage has been done. And I worry what that's going to mean for us long-term. So generally speaking, when we think about, when I was younger, people didn't sort of go shopping for states. I don't remember people thinking, oh, no sales tax or no state income tax. I'm moving to Florida from New York. And now it feels as if states have to compete for not only businesses,

but just for citizens. And loosely speaking, I think most people would say that immigration patterns are driven by two things, sunshine and low taxes. And Michigan has neither of those and yet it appears the surveys I've read of that it does really well in terms of a business friendly environment, really well in terms of quality of life, economy, good not great. But what is your approach to if you're selling the consumer product that is Michigan, trying to convince me, and my understanding is

you've actually had net population growth. That those migration patterns are not the case at Michigan. What is your pitch to consumers and businesses and the policies to back them up to make Michigan a state they choose to move to instead of from? Well, Michigan's got a great quality of life. We've got 20% of the world's fresh surface waters

in and around the Great Lakes. We've got more coastline than any other state in the continental United States, and it's all fresh water, no sharks and no salt. We've got phenomenal institutions of higher education, including our community colleges and our higher educational institutions. And there's a company that's got dual headquarters,

one in Silicon Valley, one in Washtenaw County, Michigan, right near Ann Arbor. And they're having an easier time recruiting to Michigan because our cost of living is one-tenth that in Northern California. And so all of these things, I think, are great strengths for us. I was talking with the Aspen Institute on Climate yesterday in Chicago with my colleague, Governor Dunleavy from Alaska. You know, we were chatting a little bit about climate

and one of the questions posed was, both your states are well positioned. For climate, you'll have population growth. And I'm like, oh my God, climate immigrants is, you know, is not how we want to grow our population. Bad climate is not good for anybody. As I can tell you when I look across at the Mackinac Bridge, the smoke from Canadian wildfires is impacting us. So I think the

strengths that I highlighted are part of it. But I'd also add, Michiganders are down to earth. As I talk to businesses who have presence in other states, Michiganders take pride in their work, and we're gritty people who show up and we work hard. And I think that's an important point on top of all the other policies that we've had to make Michigan a welcoming state, a place where you can make your own decisions about your body, where every person's protected and respected under the law,

and where we've leveled the financial barrier to get skills so you can get into good paying jobs. I think these are all important aspects of the work that we're doing. And how do you keep or maintain that quality? So I think the quality of life means you get a good job and you can afford your rent. You keep housing costs and education costs

at a reasonable level and ensure that people have decent jobs, decent high paying jobs. How do you do that on a, let me start with housing because it feels as if that has been a real issue around maintaining affordability in different states. How do you ensure that, long we want to say of how do you approach affordability in Michigan?

So we've really been on a crusade to build affordable housing in Michigan these last few years. We've plowed a lot of resources into it. We have, I think, maintained our high level of standards but moved licensing a lot faster, moved permits a lot faster. We've added tens of thousands of housing units and we've created tens of thousands of construction jobs in the process, which is good paying trades jobs, which is something that we take great pride in as well. I think we've got a lot of great programs to help people pay off $10,000 of a down payment

so that more people can get in. One of the things I think that, I'm sure we'll talk about it, but I raised this in my state of the state earlier this year, women are two to one buying homes, their first homes to men. Of course, the average age is way too high for everybody, but two to one women are doing it. So we're doing a lot more outreach to men to make sure that they know of all these opportunities

and programs too. I think that it's really very important that everyone can participate. But the housing costs and accessibility all across this country, the costs are way too high and accessibility is way too low. And so we've made it a real priority with state dollars to find those partnerships where we can build more

at a lower price point so that more people can participate. You reference something we think a lot about here, and that is young men who are struggling. And you also reference more single women now on homes than men. Single women in urban areas are now making as much or more than men. 60, 40 college attendance. And we want to be clear, all of those things are wonderful. That's a collective victory. We should, we should hold hands and applaud our victory here.

It's not the same for men. Young men are really struggling, right? Four times likely they kill themselves. Three times likely to be addicts or homeless. And you made a direct appeal in your state of the state. What do you think, if you try to diagnose the issue here, the problem, what is it? Why are young men having such a difficult time?

And can you point to any specific programs or ideas in the state of Michigan that you think can help address this issue? having such a difficult time, and can you point to any specific programs or ideas in the state of Michigan that you think can help address this issue? Well, it's a really important question that you're asking, and you know, I'm the mom of two daughters, but it's in their interest

that we create real opportunity for every person, right? And we have made strides when it comes to women, but we do see men falling behind it. It is just what we're seeing. It's in the data. And I appreciate the work that you're doing. I've learned a lot by listening to you and trying to do our research here on the ground. It's not just in housing. It is also when it comes to the programs that we have designed to make it easier for people to get skills, right? There's not one path for everyone.

And I think we've done as a country ourselves a real disservice in talking about the four-year education as the only path to prosperity. There are lots of different paths, whether it's a two-year certificate or it is a trade school where you can get skills and get paid while you're getting them and have no debt and a good paying job on the other side. There's opportunity for every person. When every person sees that opportunity, and I think that's part of the problem that we've had is reaching young men.

These programs, so, you know, making community college free for every high school graduate. We have big scholarships available for kids who do want to go to a four-year institution. We also created something called the Michigan ReConnect which is for people 25 and up to go back to school and to upskill. In all those programs we're seeing uptake two to one women to men. Two to one. They're available to everyone. They're not designed for one gender or another. They are designed to make sure that every person can participate. But for some reason, it's two to one, women to men. And that's why in my Say This State I talked about just our efforts to do the outreach,

to go in places where men are, because we're obviously not reaching them. And I think that that's going to be really important. The more people who feel hopeless and powerless and angry, the more dangerous our rhetoric gets, the more dangerous our world gets, and the less opportunity there is. So it was interesting though, Scott. I gotta tell you, when I did that,

I did get some interesting kind of reaction. Some people said, are you abandoning the work that you do to create more opportunity for women? I said, no. I remember someone once said, when you save the rainforest, you're not saying screw all the other forests. You're saying, I see a vulnerability here.

Let's get to work and address it. And that's what we're doing. Doing that outreach, making sure that young men participate too, can see a future, can feel hopeful and empowered to participate in this economy and live the lives that they want. But the interesting thing is it's been mostly moms and some dads, of course,

but who are advocating for their sons. And that's what I'm thinking about when we promote these opportunities. Nat Sinclair Yeah, empathy is not a zero sum game. And to your point, I found the biggest advocates that have made it a much more productive conversation than the gag reflex that was inspired if you just brought it up five years ago as mothers from both sides of the aisle, they just see something is going on. Curious to your thoughts on immigration policy. Um, I mean, two big things here, but I'd love you for you to just to touch on the president's immigration policy and some of these ice raids.

Uh, my sense is your, the, your population of undocumented workers is only about 1.2%, but I'm sure it's impacting Michigan. And also then any thoughts on this big, beautiful tax bill that's passed? Those are two big questions, Scott. You know, I'll start with this. You know, we recently had visitors from the federal government in Michigan talking about, you know, we have not seen a lot of stuff that's playing out in other parts of the country, to your point. The northern border, people don't realize this, but when you talk about border crossings, the most active border crossing in North America is in Detroit.

It goes to Windsor. And we've been very fortunate to have very few issues on the border. But someone made a representation that we're just getting inundated by gangs and fentanyl on the Northern border, which was news to me, frankly. And so I had a security briefing with some of the folks in the federal government, and I asked the question and they said, you know, we see fentanyl everywhere. So where's it coming from?

Don't know. So it's probably not coming down from Canada, but there is a fentanyl problem in this country, no question. And so it's been challenging to see some of the national conversation in this space when the facts on the ground don't necessarily bear it out. All of that being said,

we do have to have a path to citizenship for people who come here legally, and we do have to have, you know, strong borders. There's no question about that. It's important to our democracy, to our ability to secure the homeland, but I don't agree with the way that they're going about it. I think it's just dangerous and destructive. When I think about the big bill, and I'm not going to use their phrase for it because I think it's a terrible, terrible set of policies. I'm worried about a lot of people in our country. I worry about people immediately who are going to lose access to healthcare that we've worked

so hard to expand in Michigan. I worry about hospitals in rural areas that are not going to make it because of the devastation to the Medicaid population that they disproportionately serve. They're not going to be able to keep doors open. I worry about our kids who are going to inherit debt that is, you can't even get your head around. who are gonna inherit debt that you can't even get your head around. And so, yeah, I was fighting against the bill. My fellow Democratic governors and I were. I think one of the most disappointing things is

Republican governors are gonna see the same devastation in their states, but they were mum. And I just, it's hard to believe we're at this moment in America that people are willing to bite their tongues for their own political good, you know, for their own political good, and sacrifice the people that they serve. It's just, it's shocking. It's really shocking to me.

We'll be right back. on your first five orders. Shop now at nofrills.ca. This week on Net Worth and Chill, I'm joined by Dan Rossi, the hot dog king of New York City and the owner of the most iconic hot dog cart of all time. From starting with a single cart and a dream to building up a multi-million dollar empire that dominated street corners across Manhattan, Dan's story takes an unexpected turn

when it all came crashing down. Dan opens up about the highs of feeding thousands of hungry New Yorkers daily, the challenges of scaling a street food business, the mistakes that cost him everything, and what he's learned about resilience, failure, and starting over. What happened was they took all the disabled vets that were selling merchandise, you know, to see the guys with the hats and stuff, and they kicked them out of Midtown Manhattan. Why? You want me to name politics?

Yeah, let's name. Donald Trump. He kicked every vet out of Midtown Manhattan by buying off all the politicians in Albany. Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on youtube.com slash your rich BFF. Hey, this is Peter Kafka, the host of channels, a show about media and tech and what happens when they collide. And this may be hard to remember, but not very long ago, magazines were a really big deal. And the most important magazines were owned by Conde Nast, the glitzy publishing empire that's the focus of a new book by New York Times reporter Michael Grinbaum. The way Conde Nast elevated its editors, the way they paid for their mortgages so they

could live in beautiful homes, there was a logic to it, which was that Conde Nast itself became seen as this kind of enchanted land. You can hear the rest of our chat on channels, wherever you listen to your favorite media podcast. We're back with more from Governor Whitmer. So there's a perception that the relationship between the administration and governors is entirely dependent upon whether you're part of MAGA or not. Is that the case?

How is your relationship with the current administration right now? Complicated. You know, I got to tell you in my first term, my first two years of my first term were the last two years of the first Trump administration and And notoriously, uh, very contentious, right? He called me that woman from Michigan. I got threatened, threatened to be kidnapped and killed by, you know,

people that I think were inspired. Yep. Yeah. Not only that, but you know, gas was thrown on the fire, um, through the election. You know, it was. It was really scary. And like I said, after I came out of my Dexter funk, I decided I got to try. I'm going to do everything I can to do as much as I can for the state of Michigan. I'm going to keep showing up. And sometimes they won't like to see me and like to hear what I have to say, but I'm going to keep showing up and I'm going to keep making the case.

I got an Air National Guard base recapitalized, which is incredible. I tried to get that done under the Biden administration, couldn't get over the finish line, but I got it done in the first few months of this year. I'm grateful for that. I'm working on a lot of other things. I got a massive ice storm here in Michigan a few months ago. Hard to believe it's 80 degrees out and we had ice storm not long ago. I still haven't gotten FEMA relief for the businesses and people in Michigan.

I'm still working on that. I'm having a call with the administration today about the Canadian, you know, North American tariffs situation. So I've decided I'm going to lean in and I'm going to gonna be, I'm gonna be the squeaky wheel. And sometimes I can get some good stuff from Michigan, great. And if they get mad at me, that's fine too. It doesn't mean I forbear from suing when we need to as states, which we have many times, but I'm gonna do everything I can to keep the lines of communication open.

Because if I've learned anything, it's when you're not talking, you got no shot at finding, finding any common ground. And I'm not pretending there's going to be a lot there, but I'm going to keep trying. That's my duty as governor, I think. I think one of the things that is been frustrating for Democrats is we see things happening that to us, you know, these, these red lines keep getting blown and we see people being thrown off their Medicaid and a tax bill that that is primarily kind of transferring wealth from

young to old, from the future to the past, from the poor to the rich and are frustrated that more, there is a more democratic leadership pushing back. There's a, there's, I think a legitimate concern. It's sort of like, where's the leadership on the democratic side? I mean, it would be very difficult right now, I think for of like, where's the leadership on the Democratic side? I mean, it would be very difficult right now, I think, for anyone to say who is the leader of the Democratic Party.

When you're, to the extent you can, behind closed doors talking to Democrats about how to resist here or what can be done, what are your thoughts? Well, I'm going to say something that's going to be really depressing, and that is, we're five months in to a 48-month term. All right. And I understand the desire to fight, to fight everything. I get it. I feel that too. I feel the same desperation you just spoke to. And as a governor, I have a rule. You know, I have an important rule. My fellow governors and I do, we talk about this a lot. How do we band together and show Americans what Democratic leaders do?

It's by delivering in our states. It's by fighting the federal government when they're impacting our states. But we are not the counterpoint to the executive branch and the federal government. That's Congress. That's their whole job is to be that counterpoint. And so when I see Congress people who are stepping into the fray,

I'm cheering them on whether it's AOC or it's Chris Murphy or it's anyone else. I appreciate that. And I recognize that every one of us must play a role. There's not going to be one leader of this party. There's just not right now. We don't have a president and so there's going to be a lot of leaders. It's got to be, you know, a team effort. But I also am cognizant that I got to lead a state of 10 million people through this time. And that means living my values, showing people what democratic leadership can do and will

do for people so that they can point to, okay, what they're doing in Michigan is good, and we need more people like that in the federal government. And I'm not talking about me, I'm talking about Democrats writ large. And I think, you know, to your point, I have that same sense of frustration. I see some of the things going on, and um, and I, and I read the articles that I know some of the folks that, that they're talking about. Um, and, and I scratched my head and I say, how do I, how do I contribute to something that actually is going to be productive and successful?

Cause you can have all the right positions in the world, but if you can't win an election, none of it matters. So let's talk about that. Let's have some fun. Let's imagine that you're drafted, you're consistently mentioned as one of the most viable candidates on the Democratic side. Let's go all the way forward to inauguration of 2028, Whitmer presidency, and you have a 12-month honeymoon period period as any new president might have

and a lot of political capital but maybe only one or two issues to spend that capital on as you look at the nation and you try and imagine Whitmer presidency what are the one or two issues you think you would want to focus on with that political capital during quote-ununquote, that honeymoon phase? Where do you think the biggest need is? Where would you want to have the most impact if you had, if you held the, you know, the highest job in the land? I don't even like this game, Scott,

because it'll just get people talking. Come on, come on, Governor. Let's break some news here. Listen, I care about, I want to have a hand in writing the next chapter, but I don't know that I got to be the main character, but I will say this. I think any Democrat in their first 12 months, when you are given power, you better use it and not be apologetic about it and not be shy about it.

People elect you to do the job and by God, if there's something that I think has resonated with the current occupant of the White House with people is that he's not afraid to use power. I got lots of problems with it. I don't know that it's all legal, and it's certainly not all ethical, but he's not afraid to use power. And I think sometimes Democrats are too afraid. So I'd love to see a bold leader who takes on a lot of issues that have been vexing us. But I would, you know, maybe I've been listening to your podcast too much, but I'm thinking about, I'm thinking about the national debt. I'm thinking about the, all the ways that we are saddling future generations of Americans with the debt. And it's just, it's unethical.

It's horrific. And both parties have been guilty of it. I will say Democrats have retired more debt than Republicans have during their relevant administrations, but it's run up over many, many administrations. Well, let's talk about that because I think a lot of people agree that we're spending 7 trillion on five trillion in receipts.

What I find Democrats come up short is that they all agree we need to have this conversation, but they don't want to have it because it involves very unpopular decisions around both cutting spending and raising taxes. Any thoughts or programs you can, or decisions you can point to in Michigan around trying to restore fiscal sanity? Where do you think, and two point of questions, where do you think we could raise revenues? And where do you think we could cut costs? So, I'll just say this, you know, as a governor, I got to have a balanced budget. Every year we got a balanced budget.

And we have retired a lot of debt in Michigan. We've paid down billions. At last, I think the number was $18 or $20 billion of debt. We've gotten our credit rating improved, upgraded. We have created a rainy day fund that has a historic high in it now and created one for education as well. So we've been really prudent with our dollars. And unlike some states, we use one-time COVID dollars for one-time expenses instead of rolling into ongoing needs where some states have serious budget deficits now.

We don't have that caveat being tariffs are starting to really have an impact on our state budget. We're seeing that. And I'm concerned about that in combination with the cuts coming from the federal government because of the latest legislation. But I do think that need-based analysis is really important as we look to, you know, my dad doesn't need his social security. He doesn't. He did well.

He's not a billionaire, but he did well in his life, and he does not need the social security checks. There are a lot of people in Michigan who $1,500 stipend for a mom in Flint with our RX kids. $1,500 makes all the difference in the world that she can take care of her child. And so that's just one quick way of saying to really evaluate how do we spend our precious taxpayer dollars in a way that is going to have the biggest impact, drive our economy, and help more people be able to participate? I think that is one very clear question that is never asked enough and should be.

Pete So, it sounds like you're willing to sort of get near or even touch the third rail. And it sounds like what you're suggesting is you're open to the idea of means testing or maybe raising the age for social security. Am I interpreting that correctly? Yeah, I think one of the things that you said in one of the podcasts I listened to recently was the only color that we should ask is green, right? You phrased it much more eloquently than I just paraphrased, but there's a lot of wisdom to that because there are a lot of people of color, there are a lot of white people, you know, all people who are in poverty.

If we could have programs that really benefit that segment of society, we'd all be better off. There wouldn't be this anger and this wealth gap disparity that is fueling so much of the anger that is driving the rhetoric in this country right now. And just as we, Governor, just as we wrap up here, and you've been very generous with your time, people, whether they agree with you or not, are just gonna look at you and think,

this is a high functioning and very successful person. When you look back on your life, what are the really key seminal influences or moments that enabled you to kind of achieve this level of influence? And I would imagine it's a very frustrating but a very rewarding job. What were those moments in your life that really helped to put wind in your sails? So going into last year, I wrote a book called True Gretch.

And it's 10 things I've learned over my life that have really helped me navigate the last six years, the crazy years that I've been governor, right? A pandemic, a kidnapping plot, you know, demonstrations for racial justice, incredible climate events that meant we had to evacuate 10,000 people in the middle of the night in the middle of a pandemic, like 32 recall attempts, you know, all the crazy crap I've had to navigate. People often ask me, why do you still feel positive? Why did you want to run for reelection? You know, and it's a legitimate question.

I think most people will be like, forget this. I love it. I love this job. And I think, you know, in that, in the book, I talk about 10 things that have given me a lesson that I learned, something I screwed up. I talk about throwing up on my high school principal when I was in college, or I'm sorry, in high school, throwing up on my principal and getting suspended and just really was a moment that changed everything for me where I was like, all right, I got up, it changed the decisions that I made.

I became a more improved student. I went to Michigan State, which I couldn't have gotten into if I didn't get my act together at that point in my high school career. I went to law school where it really clicked for me. I talk about, you know, the shortcomings, the terrible things that happened to me, like I was raped when I was in college. You know, a therapist once told me, we're all a ball of clay, and sometimes things get hollowed out or taken away from us. And it's not fair, and it's not right. But if you can see that now that is a vessel and it can carry water, you can find

purpose in the bad decisions you made or in the horrible things that happened to you. And I think about that a lot because I am not perfect. I've never tried to tell people I am. I am a flawed human being. I'm a normal person in an extraordinary role. Taking care of my mom during that period of time when she was dying and I was trying to, you know, I had a new baby.

All of these things, I think, are what make me feel really grateful to be here. I sometimes feel like I don't deserve to be in this position. It's a high honor to be the governor of Michigan. I feel really lucky about it. I also think maybe that's why people have elected me because they know I don't think I'm better than anyone.

And in some regards, I'm not as good as some. Yeah, we share that. I was very close to my mother, and she went through an extended illness that eventually took her life. It definitely, I think that and the birth of my kids changed kind of everything for me. Is there anything you can point to

in terms of how you approach life or how it impacted you taking care for a sick person who, I mean, gluoblastoma, that's just not a great way to go. Just being quite frank, that's a tough one. Anything you're willing to share about how it changed your approach to life or the impact it had on you? I think I was probably always an empathetic individual.

My dad always says, I was a pretty sensitive kid. When we would go from my mom's house to my dad's house, I'd leave him notes, because I was worried that he would be lonely when he dropped my sister and brother and me off. But I remember during, you know, talking with one of the hospice folks and they left a pamphlet for us to look at and, you know, just had just had a baby. My mom was dying. I was reading this pamphlet and it talked about, you know, it was this scenario, a man getting on a subway with his like five kids

and they're running mayhem and they're annoying everyone on the subway. And this woman's just about had it. The kid bumped into her for like the eighth time and she's just about to read in the riot act. And he turns to her and he says, you know, my wife just died and I don't know how I'm going to take care of these kids. And that changed everything, right? She felt sadness and empathy and wanted to help him instead of reading the riot act. I always have that in the back of my head. You know, so many people have got something else going on. And so I try to think about different scenarios that could be that person that's tailgating you. You know, you want to flip them off. You want to honk at them. you want to do something.

Maybe they're rushing to the hospital because one of their loved ones was in a car accident. You know, I mean, I'm always trying to think that way. And I think that that period of time with my mom when people didn't know what I was going through and maybe gave me a hard time when they shouldn't have, or maybe I did the same to someone. You know, I think about that a lot, that everyone's going through something. If you're not right now, you have or you will. And try to be kind.

You know, you never regret being kind. You have two daughters, but you also have three step-sons. And just before we go here, I was, my dad was married and divorced four times. And one of the lights of my life was my, I guess, stepmother by my dad's third marriage. We're still very close. divorced four times and one of the lights of my life was my, I guess, stepmother by my dad's third marriage. We're still very close. Talk about any thoughts you can share on best practices

around being a parent to kids who aren't biologically yours, being a stepmom. My dad was married and divorced four times too, Scott. There you go. I forgot that in common too. That's right. You know, I think that, and I'll share this about my ex-husband too, we're still very good

friends and my husband and ex-husband sometimes jam together. My husband plays guitar, my ex plays the drums. It's hilarious. But you know, my step-sons, I've learned a lot. Boys and girls are different. There's a big, shocking news breaker of this conversation, but, you know, they need different things.

And I've learned a lot. My husband is a great dad. He loves his boys. And I know that how important that relationship is and how lucky they are. And so I think having the boys in my daughter's lives have enriched, we've all been enriched by it. We've kind of merged a sorority and a fraternity

when we got married, we're kind of the Brady Bunch. And it was, we've all benefited from it and I feel really lucky, but we have to be intentional. It's not always easy. It's not always easy. And any one tip on parenting or a thing that shocked you about parenting? No, that anything shocked me.

I just think trying to stay, be there, trying to be present. And of all the downsides to technology, the devices, I'm always connected to my kids and I'm grateful for that and connected to my step-sons too. We all get along great and I think it's because we play cards together, we spend time together, and we enjoy each other.

Governor Gretchen Whitmer is the 49th governor of Michigan and there's always these accidental tells about politicians and I'm hearing from most of them, fortunate to have a lot of them on the pod, but a real tell on the governor is the following. You are the first politician I've ever interviewed who, when I asked for your bio, sent one sentence and that sentence is the following. Governor Whitmer is a democratic and lifelong Michigander and is known for her work on healthcare infrastructure and for speaking out on national issues. I think that says something about you.

You said, you know, we can sum it up here. I thought that was very telling. Very much appreciate your leadership and also just the humanity you bring to these issues and stay safe and very much again, appreciate your public service and your time today, Governor. Thanks very much.

Thanks, Kat. Appreciate it. We'll be interviewing, I think, my guess is almost every presidential candidate, at least on the Democratic side, but we'll reach out to everyone on the Republican side. So here is a no mercy, no malice review of Governor Whitmer. She reeks of confidence and integrity. You just get the sense this is a good person and a competent person, and that matters. That's who you want in government.

It's easy to be cynical about government. This is a good person who could be making a lot more money doing something else and instead chooses to be a public servant. I think she's going to be a player, swing state, an obvious choice for the top job on everyone's shortlist for the VP candidacy. The problem, and it's not only Governor Whitmer's problem, but the Democratic Party, long on rhetorical flourish, not as long on specific programs.

I think we're moving from an era of trying to be Obama, but you're not Obama to, okay, well, what exactly does that mean? We have $7 trillion in spending, $5 trillion in receipts. What does that mean? What are the first two or three big programs you would propose in the first 90 days? I think Democrats who get more serious about running are going to have to come up with bold, big ideas and outline them specifically. And I don't think the government was able to do that, nor has any other Democrat.

And again, kudos to her for bringing up the idea of means testing, social security. But there's just no doubt about it. She's going to be on everyone's short list for at least VP. I also worry, and this is difficult to say, but I think it's true, I wonder if the Democrats are going to take the risk on a third female nominee,

given that the previous two have not been successful. And I'm not saying that's the way the world should be. I'm saying that's the way the world is. But again, I'll finish where I started. To be cynical about our elected leaders is not productive. Because if you speak to people like Governor Whitmer, you realize that many of our people who decide to be public servants are outstanding at what they do.

This episode was produced by Jennifer Sanchez. Our assistant producer is Laura Janair. TrueBurrows is our technical director. Thank you for listening to the Prop G pod from the Vox Media Podcast Network.