The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway - Conversation with Carol Spahn — the Peace Corps and the Power of Service
Episode Date: August 10, 2023Carol Spahn, the director of the Peace Corps, joins Scott to discuss the organization’s history and evolution, its adaptation after the pandemic, and the metrics they use to gauge success. Additio...nally, Carol shares insights from her own service experience and highlights the transformative impact of stepping out of one’s comfort zone. Follow Carol on Twitter (X), @PeaceCorpsDir. P.S. Scott is on holiday, so we’ll be back with our business analysis and Algebra of Happiness in September! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
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Episode 262.
262 is the area code for southeastern wisconsin in 1962 the first walmart store opened
in arkansas and the first james bond theme song was composed i saw my proctologist and complained
about all of this bleeding coming out of my ass he ignored me and kept pushing his cart at walmart
sometimes for fun i put an alka-Seltzer in my mouth,
pretend I'm foaming from the mouth,
and run around my Walmart saying,
the vaccines don't work.
Don't know why I find that so funny.
Go, go, go!
Welcome to the 262nd episode of the Prop G Pod.
The dog is on holiday.
So in place of our regular scheduled programming, we're sharing our interview with Carol Spahn, the director of the Peace Corps. We discuss with Carol the Peace Corps' history and evolution, its adaptation after the pandemic, and the metrics Carol uses to gauge success.
Additionally, she shares insights from her own service experience and highlights the transformative impact of stepping out of one's comfort zone. So with that, enjoy
our conversation with Carol Spahn. Carol, where does this podcast find you? DC. Let's bust right
into it. Can you give us sort of the brief history of the Peace Corps, what the mission is, how it's
evolved? Absolutely. So Peace Corps was founded in 1961 by President John F. Kennedy, ramped up very quickly on really what was an experiment at the time of putting young people, young professionals into service in communities around the world. And he really asked people, you know, don't ask what you can do,
your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. Are you willing? Are you willing
to go to Ghana and serve as a doctor? Are you willing to go to a place you've never been and
to serve? And there was an overwhelming response, both from the countries that were approached to see if they wanted to host Peace Corps volunteers and from volunteers themselves.
And Peace Corps has been a steady presence in more than 60 countries around the world for the last 62 years and has invited professionals of all ages to go and serve.
They live and work in a community.
So they integrate into that community.
They learn the local language.
They live at the level of the people they are serving for two years.
And that two years is really important. So it is a significant investment
of time in working side by side. And the premise is that world peace and friendship is not the
exclusive mandate of politicians. It is about each and every one of us going and living and
working together across difference, creating relationships, creating connections, and that those connections last a lifetime.
How has the volunteer base changed people drawn to the Peace Corps shifted since 1962?
Well, I will give you the answer that you expected to hear, which is there is no typical
volunteer. I served as a Peace Corps country director in Malawi for five years, one of the
poorest countries in the world.
I had a volunteer who was the youngest serving volunteer at the time.
She was 20, had been homeschooled, got through college very quickly, decided to do the Peace Corps, and the oldest serving volunteer at the time, who was 82.
And she said, I was not content sitting on my rocking chair watching reruns. I needed to get out in the world and of undergrad. And it really depends on what the
country's needs are for skilled professionals or just for young, passionate, energetic
people who are going to come and engage with their young people.
But do the majority have a college degree? Do the majority go on to professional services? Do you drop people usually that end up in health care? Do a disproportionate number of alum go into government? from the host government. So we do our very best to honor the requests that countries are asking us
for. Many of them go on to careers in service, but they also go on to careers in business and
other fields. There is a direct pathway into federal service. So volunteers who complete
their service get to a year of non-, a year of non-competitive
eligibility for federal service.
So we have thousands and thousands of volunteers and return volunteers at USAID, at the State
Department, EPA, FEMA, and a lot of employers who specifically recruit volunteers because they know and understand
the skill sets that they bring back from their service. And those skill sets are things like
adaptability, flexibility, resilience, intercultural competence, all skills that are
desperately needed in today's workforce. So I think of the Peace Corps as being one of the,
it's truly a global brand. It's this iconic brand that's recognized, at least I think every
American knows where the Peace Corps is. But how do you measure success? So what are your metrics
for if they said, Carol, we want you to leave the Peace Corps better than when you found it,
and you have 10 years, what would the metrics, what does success look like? Is it to promote
goodwill towards America? Is it to build skills among the core such that they're better prepared to come back
and be good citizens?
Is it just to build health and societal infrastructure and nations that maybe don't have access to
those types of things?
What would be the metrics you would put in place that would indicate what success looks
like for the core?
So it happens at different levels, and I'd like to break it down. So for the volunteers
themselves, we are looking at their competencies that they grow and develop over the term of their
service and how they then are bringing that service and that service back to the United
States. For their time in country, we are looking at, you know, what is the educational achievement
of the students with whom they teach? What is the impact on issues like malaria, like HIV prevention?
How have we impacted some of those key development needs in country?
But really, as we look long term, the impact of the Peace Corps is much bigger than the impact of any one volunteer in one community for two years. What I see when ministers,
foreign ministers, come into my office and say, when can the Peace Corps come back? We need you
back. And by the way, I was taught by a volunteer, and it matters to my country because we have this
incredible youth bulge. English is the language of opportunity. It's
the language of business. And what your volunteers bring is hope and energy and passion and skills
that can help us to develop over time. That is powerful. And that's a powerful generational
impact. That generational impact of goodwill towards the United States
and, you know, real passion for connecting across difference is very difficult to put in a metric.
And there are some people who have tried. There is a research study that shows the impact of volunteers and the corresponding favorability ratings and what happens when that number goes up or down over a period of decades.
That is the closest to a metric on the broad scale that I have seen, I would say the longer-term impact is more in the intangible
goodwill space. And the way I really like to talk about it is it's goodwill on the balance
sheet of the United States. Having a country that invests money, right? We might build a hospital.
That means one thing that, you know, people might
remember for five years or 10 years. Having an American who shows up in a community, learns the
language, integrates into the culture, lives at the level of the people they're with, works side
by side with them for two years, that shows that America cares, that people care
in countries that are very relationship-based, and that human connection is one of, you know,
the most powerful indicators of this lifelong connection that people then have for the
communities where they serve. Where would you describe that the Peace Corps
brand, I hate to use the term brand, but where is it, its reputation in terms of popularity,
the number of applicants relative to the number of spots? How would you describe the state of play
around the Peace Corps right now in our society? I would say that the COVID-19 pandemic distorted everything. the first time Peace Corps has ever
globally evacuated in its 62-year history. As we are sending volunteers back into service,
we gave every country the option to opt out. So do you want us back or do you not want us back?
Every single country wants us back. They want us
back in bigger numbers. Every country has been impacted by COVID. And we have a backlog of 14
countries that have formally requested volunteers. And these are numbers that I haven't seen before where countries are asking for a thousand volunteers
in their country so that they can put a teacher in every high school. Typically, a country might
have a hundred volunteers, right? So there's just this insatiable demand around the world.
What we are seeing in the United States is the impact of, we'll call it a COVID
hangover, right? People are still just sort of coming out of, you know, this COVID pandemic
and deciding where they want to move and where they want to go. Peace Corps' brand awareness
is down because we didn't have volunteers in the field for two years
and they are our best recruiters. At any particular time, we might have had 6,500, 7,000 volunteers
out there telling their stories and encouraging other people to go. So we are building that back
up. We have a bold invitation campaign that is out right now, and we're seeing very good results.
People want to take action.
They want to do something bold and courageous.
And Peace Corps is a terrific opportunity for them to really stretch beyond their comfort zone and do something that is transformative in ways they will never imagine. But it has been tough.
And all of the employers, all of the service organizations are facing challenges with
recruitment as people decide sort of how they are going to move forward in their lives.
Is it a challenge of the number of applicants or similar to the armed services
where I think I read somewhere three and four just don't have the skills or the physical
strength? And in some, we're creating, we have a disproportionate number of young Americans who
aren't emotionally or physically viable for this type of service. Are you having trouble
getting applicants or trouble getting qualified applicants?
So I would say it's a complex picture right now.
Applications are down.
And the number of people who we can clear for service is also down.
So it's a higher percentage that are not clearing.
And we are trying to tease out sort of why people are dropping out of the process.
And is that because, you know, they're not ready or is it because they have another opportunity? So it's a mixed bag right now with a lot of dynamics.
I mean, this is really interesting. This is an opportunity to do something really important. It's just a really good rap. No one says, oh, I don't like that person that served in the Peace Corps. You just don't ever hear that. It is one of the few things I can imagine that you put on your resume and is impressive to anybody you meet. And, you know, generally speaking, generally speaking, says you're a an interesting credentialed good person.
So it just a it's surprising, you know, get more applicants.
But what is it about?
Why aren't people clearing?
Is it you're on the front lines here seeing these this application pool?
What do you think is happening in our society where people aren't as interested, not as interested? And why
do applicants, why is a greater proportion of applicants not kind of up to the task, if you will?
Everything I have looked at does not point to a single factor. And we're digging in. So once
someone is invited to the Peace Corps, it is a six to eight month process for them to get legally cleared, medically
cleared, and ready to go. That is happening, right? And people may be
questioning their decisions. I don't know. What I do know is that it's a tight job market
and there is a sense of, and I forget where I read this, something about sort of the impatience, wanting more
immediate results. Another thing I've questioned is the two-year commitment, which is a fundamental
part of our model. And, you know, is that something that people start to second guess,
the timeframe? We'll be right back.
I just don't get it.
Just wish someone could do the research on it.
Can we figure this out?
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Talk a little bit about your own experience. You're a volunteer in Romania. What were the
biggest surprises to the upside and the downside around your service? So I entered service having been in corporate
America. So I was accounting. I was with KPMG, Pete Marwick. I was doing the corporate thing,
worked for a mortgage bank, and then went to Peace Corps in Romania as a small business
development volunteer. And I had expected Peace Corps at that point in my life to
be in Africa, in Southeast Asia, somewhere doing more hands-on sort of work. And here I was in this
post-communist country. It was four years after the fall of communism. And I had to have my mom
send my suits over because I was working in Eastern Europe at a
small business consulting center and working with entrepreneurs trying to start up their own
businesses as an entire economy was shifting from a state-run economy to a private enterprise. And it was a fascinating experience to understand
how communism played in the psyche of people, the distrust that it created, and to experience that
sort of firsthand, but also to see sort of where those sparks are, where the opportunities were to really engage with the
right people. And anytime you're engaging, you know, in helping start up a new business or
anything else, you're ultimately investing in the person, right? And so it was an exercise in
finding the right people who really had the skills and interest in moving
forward and creating something new in an economy that was transitioning. And I grew up in the Cold
War era, so had lots of preconceptions about what communism, and what it might have been like to live in that world. That was just a
fascinating time in history to be a part of that transition. And you went back 10, 20 years later
to be the country director for Malawi. Is that correct? Yes. What draws you? I mean, you were
a successful executive. I imagine had a pretty nice life.
I mean, that just can't be easier that comfortable to head to a developing nation
and give up a life of professional success and the comforts that come along with that.
What drew you to that? And did you have kids at the time? And it strikes me that that takes a special type
of person that, quite frankly, I have a difficult time relating to. I just like Netflix too much.
What drew you to that? I think my first comment to that would be that comfort is overrated.
My favorite quote that I shared with volunteers is that, you know,
life begins at the end of your comfort zone. And I distinctly remember standing on the sidelines
of my daughter's soccer game. She was high school at the time, and she wasn't getting any playing
time. And I was getting quite enraged as any good mother,
any good soccer mom would do because quite clearly she was the most gifted one out there.
And I said to myself, like, this is not, this is not what I should be getting enraged over. And when the opportunity came to go back to the Peace Corps, it also came at a time when my
brother had reached the end of a five-year battle with brain cancer. And the call came
almost around the same time as he was told that there was nothing more they could do for him.
And it was a really powerful moment for me to say to myself and to talk with the family and say, look, this is something that's important to do. And, you know,
we can do it now or we can do it at a future period. But, you know, this is, I did not feel
like we were living. I felt like we were going through the motions of a life that is defined by certain norms of society.
And I had learned through my Peace Corps experience and through all of the people I'd met throughout that,
that there is not one way to live and that there are a lot of rich opportunities to grow personally
that outweigh all of the other things that people might care about or think about in
terms of success. um you know every time i've gone back out into that world um i have just grown in in leaps and
bounds my bank account didn't grow but i i my life has been personally enriched in so many ways
so when i went back to Peace Corps as a country director,
my oldest was going into her senior year in high school, and my youngest was going into her
sophomore year. And my husband was giving up a job teaching. And we sat down as a family and
said, this is something that ought to scare you.
We would be going to a country where there are no malls, no movie theaters.
You'll go to a high school where there are not great sports teams.
There's a lot at stake here, and we're not going to ask you to do it unless you are 95% in. If you're all in, then, you know, you're not really thinking clearly, but, you know, you need to be all in because this represents a very big change for our family. And they were in. I think that's really powerful. So recognizing, and I'm going to try and summarize and tell me where I have this wrong, recognizing the finite nature of life because of the passing of your brother and an acknowledgement that it goes fast and that you need to dictate your life.
That stepping outside of what other people expect or what society expects of you does not dictate your happiness.
You dictate your happiness.
I find that really moving and really powerful.
And it just sort of like hits you like, well, of course, that's the way to live your life, even though most of us don't.
The thing I find unusual, quite frankly, is that a sophomore and senior girls agreed to go to Malawi. I find
that extraordinary. I can't even imagine. My sons would be like, well, are we flying Emirates? You
know, they'd start asking questions about, do they have PlayStation? I can't even imagine how
awful the conversation or weird the conversation would be. So you had 10th and 12th
grade girls and they decided to come live with you and your husband in Malawi for how long?
We were there for five years. The girls were there for, you know, they finished up their high school
and went off to college in the U.S. and then came back on their breaks. What was the hardest thing about spending five years doing that?
It was very challenging having them in college and so far away so that if something happened,
there wasn't an easy way to get to them and being far from family and all of those things that you miss. All of the things
that you would expect that would be challenging living and working in a country like Malawi
had tremendous benefits. And there are so many elements to that that you learn and absorb over time.
So I'll give you an example.
Life is obviously very challenging in Malawi.
85% of the people there are subsistence farmers and regular outages of electricity and water and just all of the basics. Every day, something would surprise me,
whether it was a little boy dancing on the street or, you know, the electricity, the water that goes out in the middle of your shower or, you know, just any unexpected thing. And yet every day, the janitor at our office building,
who did not make great money, had six kids,
would greet me with the biggest smile,
a huge wave, and a good morning, madam.
And every single day,
there was tremendous laughter in the hallways.
And I would ask people, I know you spent the
weekend in the hospital with your loved one who has malaria, and I know your lives are hard,
and you show up every day with a lot of care and a lot of community. How do you do it?
I would show up grumpy, right? I would be grumpy
thinking about all of the things I had to do that day until I got this beautiful greeting from the
groundskeeper. And they told me, Carol, it's a choice we make for each other.
We make a choice to show up every day for each other, knowing that our lives are hard and their
lives are hard. And we bring laughter and joy to our days. And it's not because our lives are easy.
It's because it's a choice we make. So you made the leap that I think a lot of us are envious of.
And you said, I'm going to set the rules for what makes me happy and how I want to live my life. But what is it about this that makes you happy? Is it
service? Is it adventure? Is it a sense that you're doing something different? Is it roughing it and
feeling a sense of achievement that you've endured this? What is it about this that makes you happy? So I've read and studied a lot about the things that make people happy.
And I think at the end of the day, it's purpose and meaning and connection.
Those are the things that make people happy.
And I believe so fundamentally in the Peace Corps' mission and the way we approach our work.
And during my time in Malawi, I saw probably 500 volunteers come through, and I watched them get
off the plane very eager and optimistic and excited. And I never called it an adventure.
I always said, this is not an adventure, it's a journey. And there's a big difference because a journey you walk side by
side and you know that there are going to be highs and lows. And I went through highs and lows,
much higher highs and much lower lows with people than they probably ever expected.
And then I met with them at the end of this two-year just transformational
experience. And they were people with tremendous depth because they had taken this risk
to go out and do something unexpected. So for me, it's the purpose and the meaning
that drives me every day and makes me love my work. And I think if you spoke to,
you know, any person who volunteered or any of the staff members here, there are good days,
there are bad days, just like anybody else, but they
are passionate about their work. Purpose, meaning, and connection. Carol Spahn is an American
government official currently serving as the director of the Peace Corps. She brings a wealth
of experience in international development, having served as a Peace Corps volunteer in Romania and
held executive positions in organizations including Women for Women International and the Accordia
Global Health Foundation. Spahn previously served as acting director and CEO of the Peace Corps. positions, and organizations, including Women for Women International and the Accordia Global
Health Foundation. Spahn previously served as acting director and CEO of the Peace Corps.
She is dedicated to promoting global cooperation, empowering communities, and leading the Peace
Corps in its mission to create positive change worldwide. She joins us from her office in our
nation's capital. Carol, it is so heartening that such talented, decent people continue to go to work for our government.
Thank you so much for your service.
Thank you so much for having us.
This episode is produced by Caroline Shaben.
Jennifer Sanchez is our associate producer and Drew Burrows is our technical director. Thank you for listening to the PropGpod from the Vox Media Podcast Network.
We will catch you on Saturday for No Mercy, No Malice, as read by George Hahn,
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